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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Paul on July 06, 2008, 09:34:03 PM
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Why is the word "specially" used in 1 Timothy 4:10 in the King James Version?
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
It seems like specially is just an obsolete synonym for especially.
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: (Titus 1:10)
Anyone care to chime in?
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My bible actually uses the term especially.
Eileen
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Hi Paul,
Ray has a section in article no. 6 in the Lake of Fire series on the topic.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html ------------------------
Now this truly is a remarkable Scripture. I have had many traitors of the truth tell me that when God speaks of "all" being saved it always means "all saints" or "all in the context" or "all in Christ" or some other "all," just as long as it can never ever mean "all of mankind." But don’t you just know that it is God’s way to shut the mouths of deceivers. Let’s look at I Tim. 4:9-10 in any context you wish:
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."
Now had God left off that last phrase, "specially of those that believe," then maybe our detractors could once again say that, "Well, yes, God ‘is the saviour of all men,’ it’s just that He doesn’t actually save all men." Let me now show you how my Pennsylvania farm boy mind works when it comes to a Scripture like this one. God has so tightly book-ended this verse that it is absolutely impossible for even the most devious minds of detractors and traitors of the truth to misrepresent this verse with an ounce of intelligence. This verse is IRON CLAD!
Notice that this verse does not say: "God is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially ALL MEN," does it? No. And this verse does not say: "God is the Saviour of ALL THAT BELIEVE, specially ALL THAT BELIEVE," does it? No. The "specially of those that believe," BELIEVE. The rest of the "all men" do NOT BELIEVE. These are two different groups—(1)Believers and (2)NON-believers. Since the "believers" are "specially" saved, in relation to the saving of the "all men non-believers," then they will be saved also. See it doesn’t say that God is the Saviour of all men but will ONLY save believers. No, the "all men" ARE SAVED and the "believers" are SPECIALLY SAVED—BOTH will be saved! The word "specially" does not mean "exclusively."
The word "specially" is translated from the Greek word malista, which means "in the greatest degree or particularly" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 155). It is translated "specially," "especially," "chiefly" and "most of all." In every single usage of this word in the New Testament it is used in relation to others who are not excluded, but included in the same subject. Let us notice a few of these so that we can be absolutely convinced in our own minds that the "specially believers" can in no possible way exclude the "all men" of the same verse.
"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, SPECIALLY [Gk: malista] they of the circumcision" (Titus 1:10).
Is it even necessary that I point out that this verse does not in any way insinuate that the "unruly and vain talkers and deceivers" are ALL from the circumcision ONLY?
"Not now as a servant but above a servant, a brother beloved, SPECIALLY to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?" (Philemon 16).
This verse says for sure that Onesimus was "special" to more than just Paul. And so it is with every single use of this Greek work in the New Testament.
It is absolutely clear and irrefutable that the believers of I Tim. 4:10 are saved in a special way, that is, they are saved before the rest of humanity, and they are given the gift of eonian (age-abiding) life reigning with Christ in the Kingdom of God, ages before the rest of humanity are saved. Only those called and chosen NOW will EVER reign and rule and bring salvation to the rest of the world and to the universe—THIS is a special gift of God to believers being called in this age ONLY. But … BUT, the rest of humanity WILL ALSO BE SAVED (albeit by way of the lake of fire in the great white throne judgment).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks, Kat.
I'd like to see other literature from back then that uses specially as a synonym for especially.
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I found this.
http://www.bartleby.com/116/102.html
I was able to watch the Emperor during all these interviews, and noticed the forcible manner in which he spoke, especially to the Sultan's uncle, who came from Fez especially.—Times. (specially)
As it stands, it implies that he came chiefly from Fez, but from other places in a minor degree; it is meant to imply that he came for this particular interview, and had no other motive. The differentiation of spec- and espec- is by no means complete yet, but some uses of each are already ludicrous. Roughly, spec- means particular as opposed to general, espec- particular as opposed to ordinary; but usage must be closely watched.
So it would be
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men [generally speaking], specially [particular as opposed to general] of those that believe.
Here is another explanation that seems to say that specially means it has a special purpose rather than an exceptional or noteworthy quality. That would go along with what Ray taught about being favorites temporarily.
Especially or Specially?
This is a favorite question of grammar checkers. Most of the time there is little or no difference between the words especially and specially.
Special is a common adjective. Specially is its adverb form. Special means "particular, distinguished in a distinct way, or designed for a particular purpose." Specially means "particularly, in a disintguishing manner, or for a particular purpose."
Especial is an uncommon adjective. Especially, its adverb form, is much more common. Especial means "exceptional, noteworthy, or particular." Especially means "exceptionally, in a noteworthy manner, or particularly."
In the sense of "particular" or "particularly," the words mean pretty much the same thing. Often they can be used synonymously. However, if you want to stress the exceptional or noteworthy quality, then especial or especially is a better choice. If you want to stress the distinctive purpose of something, then special or specially is the word you are looking for.
Example: This program has specially designed macros for word processors.
(A distinctive purpose)
Example: He did especially well in All-Star Game.
(A noteworthy performance)
http://www.cycnet.com/englishcorner/vocabulary/mistakes/00000287.htm
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Example: This program has specially designed macros for word processors.
(A distinctive purpose)
See, that's an example of how the word is used these days; and when it's used like that, it denotes exclusivity.
Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
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Why is the word "specially" used in 1 Timothy 4:10 in the King James Version?
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
It seems like specially is just an obsolete synonym for especially.
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: (Titus 1:10)
Anyone care to chime in?
specially=Malista = especially, chiefly......
same as especially in:
Ac 26:3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
Ga 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith
Php 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
2Ti 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments
good old translaters, tis babel, confusion by mixing.
chuckt
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Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
Word usage provides a much clearer understanding than does etymology. Please allow me to quote John W. Hanson:
"We are aware that nothing is more unsafe and treacherous than the guidance of etymology. An ounce of usage is worth a pound of it. Etymology is theory, usage is fact. For instance, our common word prevent is compounded of præ and venio, to come or go before, and once it had that meaning, but it has long since lost it in common usage, in which it now means to hinder. Suppose two thousand years hence some one should endeavor to prove that in the year 1875 the word prevent meant to go before. He could establish his position by the etymology of the word, but he would be wholly wrong, as would appear by universal usage in our current literature."
So how is this word used in scripture? This word "malista" will be shown in bold below:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Tim 4:10
Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write. Acts 25:26
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith. Galatians 6:10
I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: Especially [because I know] thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently. Acts 26:2-3
All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household. Phillipians 4:22
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. 1 Timothy 5:8
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1 Timothy 5:17
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring [with thee], and the books, [but] especially the parchments. 1 Timothy 4:13
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision. Titus 1:10
Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord? Philemon 1:16
Now in light of these scriptures...in light of the usage of this word, can there be any room for doubt. There is no possible way that this word can be interpreted as "exclusively" when we look at the usage of the word!
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Example: This program has specially designed macros for word processors.
(A distinctive purpose)
See, that's an example of how the word is used these days; and when it's used like that, it denotes exclusivity.
Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
"Specially designed" macros are still part of a larger set of macros.
Where did you get "exclusive" to define special, specially or especially? No dictionary that I consulted comes to this conclusion.
Some more examples of special, specially or especially being used to denote a select grouping or a small portion of a greater number being noted for one reason or another.
The team has been playing extremely well, especially the pitchers.
This band has a very tight and disciplined sound, the bass playing and drumming has a special synchronicity not heard very often.
The specially designed ramp allows wheelchairs easy access.
The word(s) does imply a greater degree of something that is in fact part of a greater whole or group but does not cut off or dissipate the rest of the whole or group.
The chosen/elect are a group with a special honor among all the saved, all of humanity.
If 10 fleet of foot people run a race the winner is singled out as "special" but the winner is still a part or portion of a greater group of racers. He may be exclusive as the one winner but not exclusive as the only racer or runner. Eventually all mankind will reach the finish line, the Kingdom of God!
Peace,
Joe
P.S. Missed your post first time around Sozo, very good by the way!
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Example: This program has specially designed macros for word processors.
(A distinctive purpose)
See, that's an example of how the word is used these days; and when it's used like that, it denotes exclusivity.
Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
1Tim 4:10 is not the best verse in the bible for "universalism," It is ONE of many verses that describe the salvation of all.
Whatever you think "specially" [mä'-lē-stä] (strongs 3122) means, it NEVER mean EXCLUSIVLEY!
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially [mä'-lē-stä] (strongs 3122) of those that believe.
Sorrowing 3600 most of all 3122 for 1909 the words 3056 which 3739 he spake 2046 , that 3754 they should 3195 see 2334 his 846 face 4383 no more 3765. And 1161 they accompanied 4311 him 846 unto 1519 the ship 4143.
Act 25:26 Of 4012 whom 3739 I have 2192 no 3756 certain 804 thing 5100 to write 1125 unto my lord 2962. Wherefore 1352 I have brought 4254 0 him 846 forth 4254 before 1909 you 5216, and 2532 specially 3122 before 1909 thee 4675, O king 935 Agrippa 67, that 3704, after examination 351 had 1096 , I might have 2192 somewhat 5100 to write 1125 .
Act 26:3 Especially 3122 [because I know 1492 ] thee 4571 to be 5607 expert 1109 5037 in all 3956 customs 1485 and 2532 questions 2213 which are among 2596 the Jews 2453: wherefore 1352 I beseech 1189 thee 4675 to hear 191 me 3450 patiently 3116.
Gal 6:10 As 5613 we have 2192 therefore 686 3767 opportunity 2540, let us do 2038 good 18 unto 4314 all 3956 [men], especially 1161 3122 unto 4314 them who are of the household 3609 of faith 4102.
Phl 4:22 All 3956 the saints 40 salute 782 you 5209, 1161 chiefly 3122 they that are of 1537 Caesar's 2541 household 3614.
1Ti 4:10 For 1063 therefore 1519 5124 we 2872 0 both 2532 labour 2872 and 2532 suffer reproach 3679 , because 3754 we trust 1679 in 1909 the living 2198 God 2316, who 3739 is 2076 the Saviour 4990 of all 3956 men 444, specially 3122 of those that believe 4103.
1Ti 5:8 But 1161 if any 1536 provide 4306 not 3756 for his own 2398, and 2532 specially 3122 for those of his own house 3609, he hath denied 720 the faith 4102, and 2532 is 2076 worse than 5501 an infidel 571.
1Ti 5:17 Let 515 0 the elders 4245 that rule 4291 well 2573 be counted worthy 515 of double 1362 honour 5092, especially 3122 they who labour 2872 in 1722 the word 3056 and 2532 doctrine 1319.
2Ti 4:13 The cloke 5341 that 3739 I left 620 at 1722 Troas 5174 with 3844 Carpus 2591, when thou comest 2064 , bring 5342 [with thee], and 2532 the books 975, [but] especially 3122 the parchments 3200.
Tts 1:10 For 1063 there are 1526 many 4183 unruly 506 and 2532 vain talkers 3151 and 2532 deceivers 5423, specially 3122 they of 1537 the circumcision 4061:
Phm 1:16 Not now 3765 as 5613 a servant 1401, but 235 above 5228 a servant 1401, a brother 80 beloved 27, specially 3122 to me 1698, but 1161 how much 4214 more 3123 unto thee 4671, both 2532 in 1722 the flesh 4561, and 2532 in 1722 the Lord 2962?
2Pe 2:10 But 1161 chiefly 3122 them that walk 4198 after 3694 the flesh 4561 in 1722 the lust 1939 of uncleanness 3394, and 2532 despise 2706 government 2963. Presumptuous 5113 [are they], selfwilled 829, they are not 3756 afraid 5141 to speak evil 987 of dignities 1391.
Nowere is "mä'-lē-stä" [adv] Strongs 3122, used to denote exclusivley
Peace
Chris R
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This was certainly the verse (statement) that convinced me, with Ray's exposition.
It's helpful to me to remember that THIS was what the Apostle's taught and what the earliest church believed. Knowing that, it makes perfect sense that other mentions of the subject simply assumed that ALL meant ALL--there was no speedbump of an 'eternal Hell' doctrine which we, looking back, have to navigate.
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1Tim 4:10 is not the best verse in the bible for "universalism," It is ONE of many verses that describe the salvation of all.
1 Timothy 4:10 is the number 1 verse for universal salvation. It's the only verse that makes it clear that all literally means everyone. And Ray agrees with me. That's why he wrote that whole article about it Kat posted above.
Whatever you think "specially" [mä'-lē-stä] (strongs 3122) means, it NEVER mean EXCLUSIVLEY!
Forget malista for a second. The English word specially can most definitely carry exclusivity with it. If something is specially made for me... Don't you see? It can indirectly mean exclusivity. However, the way the word specially is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete. When do you see a comma specially in modern English. It's being used as a synonym for especially (and, of course, especially doesn't mean exclusively)
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Paul,
1 Tim 4:10 is by no means the only verse that makes it clear that the Potter will save all of his pots... once your eyes are opened you will see it all throughout all of the scriptures. I promise you... once your eyes are open you see this as a common thread throughout... it is everywhere, everywhere. I am amazed daily that no matter where I am in the Bible I find this message of the good news.
When you insist on arguing with some of the key teachings of bible-truths however it feels as if you are only trying to sow discord... that you are attempting to cause division among the members of this body.
This is part of our core... and we come here in agreement with what Ray is sharing with us... not to argue or debate it. The forum rules state that if you strongly disagree to email Ray directly... this is not the place to argue. There are hundreds if not thousands of other forums on the internet to debate scriptural topics... this is not one of them. If you do not agree with us then simply shake the dust from your sandals and move on.
Bobby
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If something is specially made for me... Don't you see? It can indirectly mean exclusivity.
Yes Paul, you are correct I see where you can see exclusivity in your statement.
If I say, "I make suits specially for Paul" that can mean exclusivity. But of course if I say, "I make suits for all men but specially for Paul" then that is not exclusive. I'm glad you see the difference.
Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
No I see no way that verse can ever be interpreted exclusively.
Craig
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html
Read the above transcription from Ray's Audio does all mean all, it will help with your study.
Peace
Chris R
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Bobby,
That is a very perspective observation, the appearance of sowing discord or being contrary for the sole purpose of debating is something we are admonished to refrain from; [Rom 1:29-32, 2Cor 12:20]
If a car is "specially" equipped on the production line does that mean that all the other cars are to be deemed obsolete and demolished?
If a computer is "specially" equipped with a braille keyboard does that mean all other keyboards are worthless and should be destroyed?
If a child is "specially" gifted in math do we then refrain from teaching the other children mathmatics?
As I (and others) stated earlier in this thread being "special" is not being totally unique, standing alone without comparison to anything like it, it is just another part of a greater whole that may have attributes or handicaps which differentiates from the status quo.
Peace,
Joe
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If something is specially made for me... Don't you see? It can indirectly mean exclusivity.
Yes Paul, you are correct I see where you can see exclusivity in your statement.
If I say, "I make suits specially for Paul" that can mean exclusivity. But of course if I say, "I make suits for all men but specially for Paul" then that is not exclusive. I'm glad you see the difference.
Yes, and as a matter of fact 1 Timothy 4:10, in the Tyndale New Testament, the first predecessor to the KJV, reads just like your second example:
For therefore we labour and suffer rebuke because we believe in the living god which is the saviour of all men: but specially of those that believe.
:)
But I'm gonna point out that your second example is bad English. You simply can't use specially in the same ways they did back in the 15th and 16th centuries.
"I make suits for all men but specially for Paul"
Who would say that? Wouldn't a person say "I make suits for all men; but for Paul, I make them specially."
Because the way the word is used in 1 Timothy 4:10 and Titus 1:10 is obsolete (a flat-out synonym for especially), the best verse for Universalism in the Bible doesn't make sense. On the contrary, one could interpret it to mean "exclusively of those who believe."
No I see no way that verse can ever be interpreted exclusively.
Craig
The only place I've ever seen a comma specially -- specially as a synonym for especially ("...many unruly and vain talkers, specially they of the circumcision." Tit. 1:10) is in the King James Bible and its predecessors. All I'm saying is the verse probably doesn't sound right to a lot of people. Specially is never used that way in modern English. Notice how you used "but specially" in your suits example above. You put a but there because just putting specially after a comma doesn't make sense in today's English.
I like bibletruths.com, specially the Lake of Fire series.
See? It sounds out of place. A person might not associate the word with especially; they might associate it with its exclusivity connotation. So far I've heard two King James Onlyists interpret the verse the following way:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is specially the savior of those that believe.
Even that doesn't necessarily mean Jesus is only the savior of those that believe. However, when you interpret the verse that way, it loses its value. It leaves open the question of whether or not non-believers will be saved.
All I'm saying is that in our day and age, the word specially can bear that exclusivity connotation quite often; the way its used in 1 Timothy 4:10 is obsolete. Thus, a person might not see past the context; they're mind will just go: specially: exclusively. It's understandable that a person wouldn't see the verse as proof (the ultimate proof) of Universal salvation.
However
I fail to see any excuse for not realizing the word does mean especially after seeing Titus 1:10.
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O.K
Remember though, even if Timothy would happen to read
"For therefore we labour and suffer rebuke because we believe in the living god which is the saviour specially of those that believe."
A statement of fact is not necessarily a statement of limitation, you would have to consider all the scripture and as Bobby said the good news of a Father who will save all mankind is everywhere, and I do mean EVERYWHERE in scripture.
Craig
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O.K
Remember though, even if Timothy would happen to read
"For therefore we labour and suffer rebuke because we believe in the living god which is the saviour specially of those that believe."
A statement of fact is not necessarily a statement of limitation
Yup, that's the phrase I needed :)
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Hi Paul,
For those that have their eyes opened, that is a solid proof Scripture. Now for those who have not had their eyes opened, they will have plenty of excuses not to believe this. They see nothing spiritual in any of the words of the Bible. The Bible is not a spiritual book to them and they can not understand these spiritual truths.
I think the King James Onlyists are trying to make that translation of the Bible more important than the message it brings. You can't make blind people see and understand this truth, no more than you could before your eyes were opened.
Jer 14:14 And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.
They are intended to be blind and deceived at this time. But one day they will give up their foolish arguments, when the return of Jesus Christ will set everything right.
Eze 21:4 Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north,
v. 5 that all flesh may know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath; it shall not return anymore."'
v. 6 Sigh therefore, son of man, with a breaking heart, and sigh with bitterness before their eyes.
v. 7 And it shall be when they say to you, "Why are you sighing?' that you shall answer, "Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,' says the Lord GOD."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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v. 6 Sigh therefore, son of man, with a breaking heart, and sigh with bitterness before their eyes.
v. 7 And it shall be when they say to you, "Why are you sighing?' that you shall answer, "Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,' says the Lord GOD."
so true! good verse, Kat!
thanks for bringing this up, Paul....great review!
Joyce :)
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A google search of ["all, specially"] churned up several instances of sentences with construction similar to the verse, denoting not exclusivity but inclusivity. In truth, I quit looking after I'd found a few. A search on ["all, especially"] did turn up more hits, the majority of which matched the meaning of the verse in unrelated contexts.
Even if you assume that current usage of 'specially' is sloppy or ungrammatical, test it on a group of 10-year-olds. "I have food for everybody, but specially for the birthday girl." Some may complain that it's unfair, but I am betting all of them will be expecting to chow down.
Lord, starve us if you have to, but make us willing to eat.
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Paul....great review!
Thanks!
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By the way, why does Paul say most Jewish people are unruly and vain talkers in Titus 1:10?
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By the way, why does Paul say most Jewish people are unruly and vain talkers in Titus 1:10?
Paul,
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, out of everybody, not exclusively the jew"
Especially they of the circumcision [ this means what it says "especially of the jews"
Titus 1:10
It is no different than saying Many Americans have eaten grits, especially those [americans] in the south.
I'm quite sure you have a point to make, so lets hear it.
Peace
Chris R
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I'm quite sure you have a point to make, so lets hear it.
I just find it to be odd that you'd take a type of people and just call them all rude.
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Hi Paul--
Paul, himself, was "of the circumcision." I think he was trying to point out to Titus, a Greek, that the men coming out of "the church of his (Paul's) day" those of the circumcision, might easily continue in the "puffed up manner" of those trained in the old traditions, the traditions of men. He was trying to help Titus select good bishops. From his (Paul's) own experience he knew the challenges that these men would face in "overcoming" the temptation of returning to this religious mindset. Just my opinion.
Joyce :)
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So true Chris,
This speaks of the physical "religious" Jews as well as the "spiritual" Jews of Christianity.
We can certaily see the following verse is not for physical Jews only, actually it applies to more than the mainstream denominations as well since from time to time we see the same sort of "vain babblings" and "oppositions" right here in this Forum. We must all be on guard!
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
Peace,
Joe
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:D one more note....seeing as how others have posted while I was typing...slow here...sorry! :)
I don't think Paul was calling a "people group" i.e. the descendants of Abraham, liars. He knew better than that because he said that "this witness is true" that these same men, "those of the church of his day" were calling OTHER people groups names.
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13This witness is true. (It's true that they of the circumcision call the Cretians, an entire people group, liars, etc.) Wherefore rebuke them (they of the circumcision) sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Paul's emphasis was on "they of the circumcision." This is a "ritual" which he would NOT impose on new believers. It was a trade mark of those that "clung to the traditions of men," for the sake of "keeping the letter of the law." Paul began this letter with :
Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
He'd come out of that "religious" group and wanted to warn Titus that these traditions were harmful, to be aware of them.
I think Paul's admonition was of "a religious" set of rules NOT of a people group: the Jews. The Jews are not named.
Again...this is my opinion and understanding and I am open to correction.
Joyce :)
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Hello Everyone,
This is a good thread transpiring, I've listened to Ray's Audio regarding " Does All mean All " several times(approx 5 times) and he stated that their is more than one way to skin a cat. I get the impression that the Scripture at 2Peter. 3:9 is more effective in proving the Salvation of all than the ones that state " All will be saved". He uses the negative sense to prove the positive outcome; " He doesn't desire, want, wish or will any to be destroyed or perish(GK-Oleutron primarily means losing or lost). As Ray explains, this is not wishfull thinking on God's part, because the Greek word for WILL is the strong form or absolute form of the word Will, although it's usually rendered in most translations as desire. So if God WILLS that NONE will perish or be lost, their can't be any in that group of people, so if their not Lost or destroyed, they must be saved.
Samson.
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Please allow me to interject with some thoughts. These thoughts are my observations of this thread so if I am wrong, someone please correct me.
What exactly are we doing in this thread....dialogue or debate?
Dialogue is collaborative; cooperative; multiple sides work toward a shared understanding. In dialogue, one submits one's best thinking, expecting that other people's reflections will help improve it rather than threaten it. Dialogue assumes that many people have pieces of answers and that cooperation can lead to a greater understanding. Dialogue is mutual inquiry; collective knowledge.
Debate is competitive and/or oppositional; two (or more) opposing sides try to prove each other wrong. In debate, one listens to find flaws, to spot differences, and to counter arguments. Debate defends assumptions as truth. Debate creates an close-minded attitude, a determination to be right.
It is my observation that this thread has become a debate. Whether my observation is correct or not...maybe you guys can let me know. It has been clearly shown through the usage of the word "maliste", that it would be impossible to interpret this word as "exclusively". It has been clearly shown that Paul knows the difference in how this word is used in the comment made by Craig:
If something is specially made for me... Don't you see? It can indirectly mean exclusivity.
Yes Paul, you are correct I see where you can see exclusivity in your statement.
If I say, "I make suits specially for Paul" that can mean exclusivity. But of course if I say, "I make suits for all men but specially for Paul" then that is not exclusive. I'm glad you see the difference.
Now Paul, if you honestly still believe that 1 Tim 4:10 can mean exclusively, then can you please show us how this is possible using scripture. Several people have posted all the scriptures that contain the word "maliste" translated as specially, especially, chiefly, etc. So can you please show us how these scriptures can possibly mean "exclusively".
These forums are for like-minded believers to grow in Spirit and in Truth. If we go from dialogue to debate, we aren't growing. We are only arguing.
It seems to me that a snake has slithered in and is trying to sow discord. However, this again, is only my observation.
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Now Paul, if you honestly still believe that 1 Tim 4:10 can mean exclusively, then can you please show us how this is possible using scripture. Several people have posted all the scriptures that contain the word "maliste" translated as specially, especially, chiefly, etc. So can you please show us how these scriptures can possibly mean "exclusively".
I never said it could mean exclusively. Here's what I said:
All I'm saying is that in our day and age, the word specially can bear that exclusivity connotation quite often; the way its used in 1 Timothy 4:10 is obsolete. Thus, a person might not see past the context; they're mind will just go: specially: exclusively. It's understandable that a person wouldn't see the verse as proof (the ultimate proof) of Universal salvation.
However
I fail to see any excuse for not realizing the word does mean especially after seeing Titus 1:10.
This thread's merely a dialog about how one of the most essential verses for Universal Salvation doesn't make grammatical sense in today's modern English, in the most well-established translation of the Bible.
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I think this thread ended after the second post. Especially ;) if this is a matter of which bible version to use.
Is this your point Paul ???
The debate seems to be about the KJV, right?
Its seems he's only stating the obvious about the word specially
And the obvious is we do not talk the way the KJV reads. right??
I could be totally off base here but this is what I gathered from the thread.
Antaiwan
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Its seems he's only stating the obvious about the word specially
And the obvious is we do not talk the way the KJV reads. right??
I could be totally off base here but this is what I gathered from the thread.
You're exactly correct.
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Passing out cups of coffee, cola, beer, wine, water....lets see...did I get everyone??
Okay...vodka for the guy in the back! ::::who IS that guy in the back anyway?::::
::::lifting sunglasses to see better:::::: 8)
whatever! Now....
Personally, I LOVE the fact that you brought this up, Paul!! :D
I admire your tenacity for standing up for what you believe in! This is the making of a warrior! A saint! You go guy! :o woooh hoo! And ...AND!!!....BONUS!!!! YOU are "exercising" MY faith! I am being made to give an answer for the HOPE that is within me!! I want to THANK YOU for this thread, dear brother (*or future brother, whatever!)....doesn't matter to me! I'll count you as family now, seeing as how I myself am waiting for the "adoption, to wit," and I personally believe that everyone else will make it too! You probably believe everything that I do anyway and I'm making a total fool of myself going on like this!! Oh well, won't be the first time! ;D
Now...I think my explanation about Paul's comment about "those of the circumcision" was quite good. I actually surprised myself in that 2nd comment! But you didn't comment on them? ???
And secondly; I think if you replace "specially" with "especially" in each of these verses.....it totally works!
Here we go:
Deuteronomy 4:10 (*we really do not have to include this OT verse since the word "specially" was translated from an entirely different Hebrew word...but hey...why not be completely sure about this?)
Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me....
Acts 25:26
Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Titus 1:10
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Philemon 1:16
Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?
Okay...now scroll back up and put "ESPECIALLY" in all those places where I highlighted the word "specially" ....see??? IT TOTALLY WORKS!
So...if you like using the word "especially" in any of these verses...it would not be butchering the meaning or the gist of the passages to do so...this IMHO.
The word "especially" is used interchangeably with "specially" in both old and modern English.
Specially:
μάλιστα
malista
mal'-is-tah
Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mala (very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.
So Paul....do you take vanilla or coconut flavouring in your coffee?
sincerely,
tryN2BAgoodpeacemaker.com (*don't go there, I made it up!)
Joyce :)
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:)
Joyce, this thread was supposed to be nothing more than pointing out that the word specially is used in a peculiar way in 1 Timothy 4:10 in the King James version--an obsolete way. I exemplified this when I used it in a sentence in the same way:
I like bibletruths.com, specially the Lake of Fire series.
Obsolete English.
I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.
Y'see, the especially part of 1 Timothy 4:10 is what makes the verse what it is. It's what sets in stone the fact that all literally means everyone. Unfortunately, the verse, in the KJV, is one of the more obsolete ones. The verse makes as little sense in our day and age as my example sentence above about bibletruths.com. When you read 1 Timothy 4:10 from a Bible that uses especially, it's a slap in the face to Christendom's exclusivity doctrine where only believers will be saved. However, this powerful verse doesn't make sense, in the KJV, in our day and age.
And I didn't comment on anyone's responses to my Titus 1:10 question because I didn't have time. I'll read your responses at some point and comment. :)
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This thread's merely a dialog about how one of the most essential verses for Universal Salvation doesn't make grammatical sense in today's modern English, in the most well-established translation of the Bible.
It is the SUM of God's word Paul...not this one verse. All this looks like nitpicking to me.
There are so many verses that speak of universal salvation that only those whose eyes are blocked would miss it
I myself do not need any more proof...and cannot understand how anyone after reading all that Ray has read and said can still be dealing with this. At any point Universalism is a MILK doctrine.
(Heb 6:1) Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
(Heb 6:2) of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,
We are suppose to be striving for maturity....feeding on meat of the Word.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
I am done with pablum
beloved
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Hi Paul,
I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.
I see what you are saying here. But as long as a person's eyes are not opened they will find fault with any or all Scripture you use to try to explain Universalism to them. So what I'm saying is you can not make a blind person see the truth with any Scripture, not until their eyes have been opened.
Now if someone has a real interest in the truth, then have all these Scripture ready and you will see how God works with a person whose eyes are opened :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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:)
I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.
OHHHH!! sorry! Ok, bro....I totally get you now!! Thanks for being patient with me! The bottom line in explaining US to another person is that....only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth that was "kept hidden." If the person that you are speaking to is used to reading KJV, and the Spirit witnesses to them in their spirit that what you are saying to them is the truth....they will GET it, no matter what....if He is not revealing it to them....they will NOT get it, even if you exhaust yourself daily explaining it away. I mean this literally! L. Ray Smith unknowingly, challenged me to try this...... and they were right! It's a miracle that someone can read the scriptures that they quote and NOT get it...it takes a miracle of God to HIDE the truth from them. Which, I believe, is exactly what He is doing as He works out the perfect plan to save all of His children.
And I didn't comment on anyone's responses to my Titus 1:10 question because I didn't have time. I'll read your responses at some point and comment. :)
No problem. Catch ya on the flip-flop, over and out! ;D
Joyce :)
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Hi Paul,
For those that have their eyes opened, that is a solid proof Scripture. Now for those who have not had their eyes opened, they will have plenty of excuses not to believe this. They see nothing spiritual in any of the words of the Bible. The Bible is not a spiritual book to them and they can not understand these spiritual truths.
I think the King James Onlyists are trying to make that translation of the Bible more important than the message it brings. You can't make blind people see and understand this truth, no more than you could before your eyes were opened.
Jer 14:14 And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.
They are intended to be blind and deceived at this time. But one day they will give up their foolish arguments, when the return of Jesus Christ will set everything right.
Eze 21:4 Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north,
v. 5 that all flesh may know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath; it shall not return anymore."'
v. 6 Sigh therefore, son of man, with a breaking heart, and sigh with bitterness before their eyes.
v. 7 And it shall be when they say to you, "Why are you sighing?' that you shall answer, "Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,' says the Lord GOD."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Wow Dear God! I absolutely LOVED that verse you quoted Kat, thank you so much for that, what a blessing it was. Truly i feel that very way many times. Sighing in silence...
Absolutely beautiful, one of my new favorite verses!! THANK YOU KAT!
God bless,
Alex
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I'm quite sure you have a point to make, so lets hear it.
I just find it to be odd that you'd take a type of people and just call them all rude.
I appologize , that wasnt my intention. I read your explanation sounds resonable to me.
Peace
Chris R
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Thank you all for the clarification. I obviously misunderstood the motives behind this thread. Maybe it was in the wording...I'm not sure. One thing is for sure, though. We are all much more clear on the meaning of the word "specially".
Paul, to you, I apologize. Please forgive me for misunderstanding your intentions. I understand now that your were merely trying to create healthy dialogue.
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Joyce, I just read your second post on my question about Titus 1:10. You cleared it up for me.
I think Paul's admonition was of "a religious" set of rules NOT of a people group: the Jews.
Sozo, no problem. I probably should've been more clear that this was basically a word play thread.
If a car is "specially" equipped on the production line does that mean that all the other cars are to be deemed obsolete and demolished??
If a computer is "specially" equipped with a braille keyboard does that mean all other keyboards are worthless and should be destroyed?
If a child is "specially" gifted in math do we then refrain from teaching the other children mathmatics?
Specially in and of itself doesn't mean exclusivity or inclusivity. It depends on the context.
The competitors are all given medals, but the gold cup is specially for the person who comes in first.
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Praise God. I loved this thread! What love and maturity.
Out of all the wisdom, this one is what will stick with me:
All Americans eats grits, specially those in the South!!!
NOW, I GET IT!!!!!! ;D
I think that is what I will use to tell my girlfriend- we are both Kentuckians!!
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I think it matters whether you put sugar or gravy on your grits.
But I don't want to divide the church, so I won't mention it. ;D
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I think it matters whether you put sugar or gravy on your grits.
But I don't want to divide the church, so I won't mention it. ;D
LOL, I like cheese on mine.
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grits are great with toppings specially butter and cheese. :D :P
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Sorry...I just don't get Grits! :-X
Make my order Oatmeal Please!
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oh man...you guys gotta know...
I have actually had grits mailed to me because they are so hard to find up here in Canada...and grits are not really grits unless you put butter and sugar on them....and fry up some mullet and slice some tomatoes....and make some iced tea to go with 'em! ;D
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...SWEET tea, thank you! :D
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oh man...you guys gotta know...
I have actually had grits mailed to me because they are so hard to find up here in Canada...and grits are not really grits unless you put butter and sugar on them....and fry up some mullet and slice some tomatoes....and make some iced tea to go with 'em! ;D
up in minn, there isnt much eating of grits either.
im in atlanta now and i love to fry them the next day, never put sugar on them but sliced tomatoes mmm mmm good.
funny how a thread can turn to food :P :-*
peace
chuckt
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;D isn't THAT the truth, chuckt? I better get on over to Kat's gardening section....gonna need some corn and black-eyed peas and tomatoes!
Might have to go hydroponic at this late date! Growing season ends about a month earlier up here....which is why I always thought that the Canadians would be raptured first! heheheheh!!
(*that was joke guys, don't throw any tomatoes! Paul.....SPECIALLY any over-ripe ones!!!) Lol!
Joyce :)