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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 04:22:25 PM

Title: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 04:22:25 PM: I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 21, 2012, 05:38:09 PM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 04:22:25 PM
I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise

Perhaps it wasn't just about forgiveness?

Perhaps it was about proving to a creation that could never understand Him, atleast not as they are now, that He loves them and relates to them?

If your dad always sent you gifts on your birthday, gave you money, but never actually spent time with you or did anything for you, you might start to doubt his love. But if your dad layed down his life for, died for you, to show you how much he really loves you, you could never go to him afterwards and say "You never really showed you cared you know?" "You gave me everything I wanted but that doesn't mean you loved me."

This way, no one can say to Him, You didn't really love us, you don't know what it's like to be us.

God bless,

Alex
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: GaryK on August 21, 2012, 07:42:08 PM: “Why should submitting His Son to a brutal beating and crucifixion "please Him?"

“And this is how God knew that Christ's sacrifice would not be in vain.”

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

Denise,

The above two quotes are teasers for you. I believe you’ll find your answer(s) in Ray’s paper.

gk
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Joel on August 21, 2012, 10:58:54 PM: We can rest assured that God has his reasons for doing what he does, and the outcome is always perfect.
Under the Old Covenant people were required to bring blood offerings for the remission of their sins.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission.
Under the New Covenant God required the bloody death of his Son Jesus Christ, and that was a one time requirement that God accepted once and for all for the forgiveness of our sins.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Joel
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 11:20:46 PM: It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered) himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute. It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood. A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 21, 2012, 11:59:24 PM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 11:20:46 PM
It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered) himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute. It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood. A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

I understand your concern. It doesnt "make sense". But a sure scripture

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There are just some things we will not grasp. But the fact that Christ went through that suffering, torment, torture and sacrifice - it makes me Love God even more. But as far as shedding blood... It's scripture

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

It's Law and Scripture. But this was referring to Animals. But the Will of God called for something better

Hebrews 10:4-6
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Shedding blood is important though

Hebrews 9:22
and with blood almost all things are purified according to the law, and apart from blood- shedding forgiveness doth not come.

It was atonement for souls. But Christ died for sinners, for the world, for redemption, mercy - and this is SURE because He gave his life. That is truly good news. It's not enough for him to live a great life, preach teach, pave the way, live an old life and die. But sacrifice himself for the world

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now, for the weak at heart, this can be cruelty to animals and unfair but this is the way for "life for life". But not an animal for one person, but a Righteous Man for MANY. It's truly the Gospel. So i thank Jesus for doing that, not jus for me but for the world

Romans 5:7-10
For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

It may not make so much sense; but what makes sense to me is Jesus give his life as a ransom for mine and the worlds. Its Love

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2012, 12:00:49 AM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 04:22:25 PM
I have a question that has been bothering me... If God wanted to forgive us, why can't he just forgive us just like that, like he asks us to forgive others. Why does he need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. It just doesn't make sense? i need your insight on this. Thanks so much.

Denise

Hi Denise,

God does just forgive us, forgiveness is a done deal according to Revelation. 13:8(" the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World.") See: 1Peter. 1:19,20. We were already forgiven from before the Foundation of the World, but unfortunately or fortunately We are Accountable for Our Sins.

Jesus mentions being Chastised or Corrected from the Greek word Kolasin which is derived from Kolazo literally meaning "to prune with a view to improving us." He never used the Greek Word Timoria which means a severe penalty or punishment, although that word is mentioned in Hebrews addressing believers.

I wish, quite often that God didn't plan for us to suffer in the many ways We often do, I don't enjoy it. Sometimes, I feel like what's mentioned in the verses listed below, specifically Romans. 9:19.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Apparently, God knows We need or require the suffering & chastening We experience in this Life for our correction. Most of Mankind will have to wait for the Fulfillment of Isaiah, 26:9, the inhabitants of the World learning righteousness from His Judgements, matters being set straight.

Just consider for a minute that Satan was created wicked, the destroyer, the waster, a liar & murderer from the beginning. He couldn't do otherwise and yet He will suffer severe correction & purification of His Carnal self in order to be transformed and become righteous.

Also, no one can truly and fully forgive anyone without God's Spirit enabling them to do so.

Stephen certainly couldn't forgive the Religious Leaders on His own. Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

It all boils down to the fact that We are accountable for Our mistakes, whether planned or unplanned including even foolish mistakes leading to accidents, even when making what We think are the best possible choices that don't turn out the way We thought. That's the way God thought it was best to proceed.

Often, I don't particularly like it, but it continues to happen, for almost 56 years in My case. Why didn't God just make us Morally, spiritually & physically flawless with the inability to Sin. I really don't fully know, but one day We all will, in the meantime, your guess is as good as mine. ;)

Carry On & may God assist you in your endeavor to cope with this difficult experience entitled: Life. Samson.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Samson on August 22, 2012, 12:17:51 AM: Denise,

Just a short excerpt from Ray, The Lake of Fire, Part 2(The origin of Sin) might shed some of the light, if even only a fraction towards Your inquiry. Read Below !

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:

"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).

Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!

And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a "mistake," a "missing of the mark," a "falling short of the glory of God," and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! "Declaring the end from the beginning..." (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes "responsibility" for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20).

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (Rev. 13:8).

Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.

Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).

Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).

Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

The good news is that all of our suffering is for a grand purpose and will ultimately bring huge rewards.

Carry On, Samson.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Kat on August 22, 2012, 01:27:21 AM: Denise, just think for a minute what human being are having to endure in this life... we have people in here saying all the time that it just isn't fair what humans are suffering and what kind of God would do that to His creation. Well it seems that an all wise God has determined that what is happening in the world is necessary for the ultimate proper end development of this human race.

BUT does He stand back and put us through the ringer, so to speak, and say that's just the way it has to be? NO! He did not. He worked into His plan what He knew, as a perfect just God, would be necessary to prove what He was doing would not be done without a tremendous sacrifice on His part. He created a Son, someone who could relate to this human race in body and speech (which the Father can not), made Him greater than we can imagine. Then made Him lower than angels and into a human fleshly being. Now you say...

Quote
I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute. It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood. A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense..

And so for God to come down and just to live this life and die of old age should be enough for us from God, right? Do you really think that people that have suffered greatly in this life through all manners of evil would think He did something special, after they had to suffer so much? I could see how they would think God absolutely did not understand what they had to endure, and maybe they would be right. BUT He does understand because of what He DID endure. No person can come before God when they give account and say 'you just don't know what it's like to suffer so much,' no person can say that.

He suffered one of the most horrible deaths, not because He was "a blood thirsty" God, but because He loves us so much He was willing to do whatever it took to prove it and show us... and that was that our GOD became literal flesh, how much degradation is that, but no that was not enough, as He also died a brutal death. To question this ultimate act of humility and look on it as an act of anything less than absolute love is despicable.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 22, 2012, 02:59:08 AM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 21, 2012, 11:20:46 PM
It doesn't make sense.. to be honest.

The same concept applies... for example.. if I sin against you, and you cannot forgive me unless your own biological son, The good one, kills (tortured/murdered) himself to save me, the bad child and it is only then that you can forgive me. It's like you need someone of your own to die in order to forgive someone. To me.. that is messed up. Why need bloodshed in order to forgive? Why can't he just forgive?

I would understand if Jesus acted as mediator for God and Man. Being born as a human, show the way... grow old, and die. I would understand that.. but that God demands his son's sacrifice, blood, and so on to save us...using that blood as substitute. It just doesn't make sense. It is like God demands blood for blood. A bloodthirsty God requiring bloodshed/death to be able to forgive us? It just doesn't make sense.. Why can't he just forgive us, after sending a mediator, to show us the way. Why need bloodshed, death, and so on, in order to save us? That part doesn't make sense.

Hey Denise,

Long time no see. I hope school's going well for you. I've been thinking about you. :)

There's more than one question up there. ;)

It isn't that it doesn't make sense. We ask questions like this because we don't like the way God does things.

No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends.

And the way he died....

Who else in history has ever done such a thing? It certainly perks a person's ears up. It's like that proverbial bell that you can't unring. It's stuck there in the brain and going to take the rest of our natural lives to not just figure it out but to believe it...

Romans 10:6 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who has believed our report?

I agree with Kat. As Ray pointed out clearly, God did not force Jesus to die.

John 10

15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus appears to be saying he was commanded of His Father to lay down his life, but God did not FORCE this on Jesus. Jesus OBEYED that commandment by VOLUNTARILY laying down his life.

Jesus always did what pleased His father.

7 Then said Jesus to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep.

13 The hireling flees, because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 8

28 Then said Jesus to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself ; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things.

Jesus acknowledges right there that his obedience to laying down of his life (voluntarily) is not of himself, but He is doing as his Father TAUGHT him. He was not forced. Sounds to me like he was imitating his Father... yes?

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; FOR I DO ALWAYS THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE HIM.

It's exactly what Alex said: But with Jesus He didn’t have to die. I mean God can save humanity without anybody having to die on the cross to do it. Why did He do it? To show us how much He loves us! I mean when there is no real compunction that something needs to be done and you volunteer to do it, just because you want to prove to somebody your love… I mean that is pretty profound. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=11521.0

All I can say is...

IT CERTAINLY GETS A PERSON'S ATTENTION, DOESN'T IT!
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 12:55:05 PM: Jesus did not have free will either, nor do we. We are subject to God's will, according to scriptures. Technically, Jesus did not lay down his life voluntarily. He just obeyed. He had to. The whole murder/death sounds awfully like guilt. Not Love. The purpose is to guilt the audience to convert. I mean... If he didn't die a brutal death. You wouldn't feel guilt and feel bad for what happened to Jesus for everything he stood for.

Now... Even with animal sacrifices in old testament, that doesn't make sense either. Scriptures say God love the smell of burnt flesh and it satisfies his anger. They often require you to sacrifice lambs and you are to take the lamb into your home to care for for a while, enough time for you to connect to the lamb and then once you bond to the lamb, you must sacrifice it. It's used to guilt you for sinning. The slaughter of innocent animals to satisfy God who need to smell burning flesh as a fragrant incense to soothe his anger toward you? The same applies to Jesus. To guilt you that bec of your sinning, jesus must die to soothe Gods anger toward you and be able to be forgiven? It does not make sense....

Same applies to Adam and Eve story.... They are new creation, they are always learning...And need contant teaching and they will make mistakes bec they are babes in Christ, they need good parent who is always there for them to help them along the way. Not cut them off bec of one sin. God is their parent in this case.

My point is... Our children are clean slates... When they make a mistake, we teach them, we are there for them, we show them the way. We don't banish them into exile and disappear from their sight and only communicate thru prophets to communicate with their children? They need love, care and attention and someone present to be there for them to learn from their mistakes. We know that they don't thrive as well without guidance and love. The need constant contact from their parent to know they are loved.

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve sinned once and was banished from garden of Eden for thousands of years, severe punishment and people have not seen God the Father in physical sense since. We rely on prophets, true and fake ones to lead us, we take their word for what God wants... A good Father will not abandon his children like that where blind faith is required to take in comfort that God is there. It's like an absent father who only shows evidence of his own existence through a book of scriptures and nothing else....

Think abt it.. We learn from our parents. We thrive best with parents present and constant contact to make sure you grow up right. We take in what our parents teach us and we become like them.

Same concept applies... Adam and Eve made a mistake, they were babes in Christ and God Knew that. He banished them and left them to fend for themselves and they end up relying on people who are prophets who say they talk to Father. It's a horrible way to teach someone how to live right. We are mirrors of people we look up to. If Father was here constantly and we see him, and we get advice, lessons and so on, we would be better off. We don't treat our children like Father did to Adam and eve. Adam and eve were toddlers in a Christian sense. We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best. You don't just cut them off. ESP when they are babes. They sinned once and that was it. Such a cruel and mean God to cut his children like that ESP when they have to learn and need his guidance. This is not right nor does it make sense... I think this is their way to explain why we can't see or talk to God and only the holy ones does?

Like I said, it doesn't make sense... Im having a hard time.

Denise
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 22, 2012, 01:03:59 PM: My sister Cheri's going through the same thing you are right now. She doesn't like God very much right now. I've been there. I will pray for you. :)
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Craig on August 22, 2012, 01:12:07 PM: I know this is not what you want to hear but "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"

Quote
We don't do that to our toddlers either. We love them, we train them, we teach them, we explain, we learn thru mistakes best.

And then they become adults and sometimes, kill, rape, lie, cheat, steal, cause wars, gossip, show their tempers, abuse themselves, etc. etc. Works real well doesn't it? You said it "we learn thru mistakes best." Isn't that what the purpose of this existence comes down too? Learning through our mistakes and trials is a process of our creation.

Now to your original question on why His Son had to be tortured and killed? Honestly that question has haunted me too and the attempts to explain it to my satisfaction have come up short. There seems to be more to this than we see, the answer that I will give you is I don't know, but I trust it has/had a very grand and necessary purpose.

Craig

Craig
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: onelovedread on August 22, 2012, 01:16:37 PM: Denise
You ask why does God need to have his Son tortured and die in order to forgive us. I find an answer to that when I read the book of Hebrews. Here are a couple of passages that help me, and I hope they help you too.

Hebrews 7: 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9: 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal (should be translated eonian) redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 2: 10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.

Hebrews 4: 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin.

I hope this at least leads you to a different perspective in searching for an answer to your question, Denise.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 22, 2012, 01:31:45 PM: One thing it has done for me is, it makes me NEVER want to torture another human being, etc., that way.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 06:13:34 PM: It'll take time...I have a boat load that bothers me too. For example.. slavery.

Israelities supports slavery of other races but forbid slavery of their own people. There are scriptures that they don't see slaves as human beings but property. To me that is racist.

That is what they believe God wants.. Does that make God racist too? Supports slavery of other races but not their own people? What does that say about God?

Leviticus 25:44-46

King James Version (KJV)

44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

There are a boatload that bothers me.. OT seems to refer to man's carnal heart, not God.

Please continue to pray for me. I'll need it. Thanks so much.

Denise
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: space.ace.jase on August 22, 2012, 06:51:35 PM: Quote from: Gina on August 22, 2012, 01:03:59 PM
My sister Cheri's going through the same thing you are right now. She doesn't like God very much right now. I've been there. I will pray for you. :)

Hi Denise,

I've spend a time hating God but after a time you will understand that God does everything out of love (we just don't really see it).

As a child I remember yelling at my mum saying I hated her (she made me take a shower- how dare she) but as I grew older I see why, but at the time I didn't understand.

Don't worry too much God will show you in time!

God bless,
Jase
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 07:09:30 PM: Thanks to everyone who responded. I am indeed going through a hard time.

I know that children are smarter than we take them for. They are capable of understanding if you take the time to explain. My Dad would tell me, as a child, that I wouldn't understand if he explained, but it was so clear that even I could see what's going on. Children are smarter than you think they are. That is why fear is an efficient tool when wanting to keep people in place. Most adults don't bother because it's work and more time to explain. You who already have children know that Kids are more likely to rebel if they don't get the answer to why. They are naturally curious..The question "Why" is the key. Once they get the why answered, it is all good.

Most kids are not likely to rebel if parents take the time to explain why instead of saying... Because I say so without explaining.

Kids don't' learn this way. In school, they ask a lot of why, what, who, where, when questions, they learn best this way. They get answers this way. They are scientists by nature. If they don't get the answer they are looking for, they will rebel(experiment) to learn the reason why.

So therefore, with God. We are not stupid. He is just saying.. Because I say so... unless it's really men who hate those who question, and because once they question, it raises more questions, and more questions than answers causes problems when trying to keep a religion. That is why they create ideas that cause fear, to keep it from sprouting as much as possible.

We all are getting smarter and smarter as generations pass by. We have rights to freedom of speech, we are able to voice our concerns freely, voice our ideas freely and so on, and these people back then did not have that right. If they ever did, they would be stoned to death and you know it. We know a lot more than these people of the OT and NT ever did. The last time church ruled was in the Dark ages and that was not a peaceful age to live through. The bible raises more questions than answers. That's for sure. It just doesn't make sense. They just kill people who ask questions. Simple as that. It's evident throughout the bible and throughout history.

How do I know God is what Bible says God is? That is the question.

Pray for me. Thanks so much for all that has responded. Thanks.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: mharrell08 on August 22, 2012, 08:58:41 PM: Denise,

When a person has the mindset you have regarding God right now, I've found there's really nothing any one person can say to bring you out of it. That's another aspect of the story of Job...Job was not satisfied with anything anyone had to say until he heard it from God Himself.

I see this not only on the forum from time to time but also people that I associate with. It's not a bad thing to feel this way and you're not a bad person for asking. God is not a man who is thin-skinned when someone doesn't like or understand His ways. He'll explain all to each and every one of us in due time. That is the only thing I would say to be uplifted about...knowing that one day, all these questions will be answered. I think as long as that hope is strong in you, it can help keep you in a good state of mind. Just my thoughts.

Marques
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 22, 2012, 09:19:26 PM: Marques, You are right.

Believe me, I ask this question often in prayer. God is the only one who can change my mind about this subject about HIM. It is all up to him. It is his turn now. It's all in the air. I made the move, now it's his turn. I am really passionate about finding out what the truth is. God is just making it so hard for me is all. Patience is a virtue. right?

It is all those many questions on my mind. It just doesn't make sense.. I am waiting for God to make it all make sense. :) All in due time, like you say, like the bible says.

Denise
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 22, 2012, 11:58:12 PM: God caused Denise to have these questions. We know that much for sure. If He brings us to it, He'll bring us through it. This is how God works in our hearts. He's not afraid of questions like these. He knows we're bound to ask them.

Denise just needs to vent a little and we need to be there for her to pull her out of it if it is God's will.

If I may, one day after I'd pretty much said to God and Ray, I don't even want to worship a God that causes the torture of a man who has done no wrong....this thought occurred to me: But who will I run to when no one else is there for me? God's always been the One that I run to when no one else is there... And He's always been there for me. I might have had to wait a while (or even years) but He never leaves me. He's scary sometimes, and I don't like Him sometimes, but then He's so kind and always gives me exactly what I need. And if I get that from Him, then so will others... eventually. It's just going to take time, just like Denise said.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 12:02:29 AM: That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way. I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do, I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad. for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name. It's kind of interesting. really.

If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles. Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one? what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 12:05:01 AM: Cause truly, Confidence in the scriptures is VITAL in receiving or believing any matter. It's written, "...apart from blood-shedding forgiveness does not come" (Hebrews 9:22) and "...it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul" (Lev 17:11). And for a man, to voluntarily go through what he did as a sacrifice for the WORLD --- on one hand, it's cruel and nonsense but to me and many others - its the highest form of love. Scripture backs it all up. But even Paul declared, "the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but into us which are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18)

It'll all come to you. Hopefully the result is LOVE LOVE LOVE. Every smack, spit, whip, slash, pressure, moan, crack, smash, pop, agony - it was Love. Oh I'm bringing myself to tears. Jesus endured, despised the shame, carried and died. For you, me, every sinner and murderer. It's love

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 12:08:19 AM: Quote from: Gina on August 22, 2012, 11:58:12 PM
God caused Denise to have these questions. We know that much for sure. If He brings us to it, He'll bring us through it. This is how God works in our hearts. He's not afraid of questions like these. He knows we're bound to ask them.

Denise just needs to vent a little and we need to be there for her to pull her out of it if it is God's will.

If I may, one day after I'd pretty much said to God and Ray, I don't even want to worship a God that causes the torture of a man who has done no wrong....this thought occurred to me: But who will I run to when no one else is there for me? God's always been the One that I run to when no one else is there... And He's always been there for me. I might have had to wait a while (or even years) but He never leaves me. He's scary sometimes, and I don't like Him sometimes, but then He's so kind and always gives me exactly what I need. And if I get that from Him, then so will others... eventually. It's just going to take time, just like Denise said.

Love the honesty. We'll all get to our peace after our dragging has played its part. But the journey is frustrating and filled with worries and questions. Like you said, God causes them - he'll reveal them

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 23, 2012, 12:39:26 AM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 12:02:29 AM
That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way. I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do, I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad. for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name. It's kind of interesting. really.

If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles. Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one? what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.

Man! Denise! You are like ALL OVER THE PLACE.

First of all, you need to stop with the Jews are the "bad race." I'm here to tell you that I've got a few Jewish friends and have had a couple Jewish bosses and they aren't the way you describe. Besides, did you know that there are relatively few actual Jews in existence today? You know that don't you?

And did you know that a Jew is not one who is one OUTwardly, but he is a Jew who is one in the heart?

God is not threatened by your false accusations and your doubt, Denise! Sister, there's a lot you DON'T know.

First, take a look around you and describe what you see. Now answer the following question: Who put it there?

You are getting yourself all worked up over that which you DO not understand -- and you've admitted it that you don't know that much (not that I'm any better than you). But now that you've had a little schooling you think you know SO MUCH! You CLAIM that you know TOO much. But from the looks of your post, you've got a LOT of questions you need answers to. BIG, HUGE, GIGANTIC questions.

You know enough to be dangerous. And I'm not "hating on you"; I'm just telling you like it is. This is how the carnal mind works. Did you know that?

(Did that help at all? :) ;))

Love,
Gina
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 01:44:12 AM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 12:02:29 AM
That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way. I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do, I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad. for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name. It's kind of interesting. really.

If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles. Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one? what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.

As far as the "Jewish" people, or better yet, the "the people of Israel" - one source of the problem started after the conquest under Joshua leading till after his death. Upon his death

Judges 2:11-13
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served Baalim: 12 And they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the Lord to anger. 13 And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

Yes, they were carnal as can be. And they were NOT an holy people to the Lord. From then on, they were not peculiar, holy, and "all of Moses". They served GODS all around them, brought in their teachings (immortal soul, hell, etc) and this led up ALL throughout history, with Jesus speaking in parables that no one understood, to the apostles spreading the message of Jesus, to people STILL heeding gods and then it effected translators of the scriptures and yea, not so good

I know first hand how you feel Denise. We talked before :). Since then, I will admit, Ray opened my mind. My advice is, Start with his paper, "Origin of Endless Punishment" - read the ENTIRE PAPER and the next 3. Ray goes into DEPTH how Christianity, even JUDAISM, Jews throughout history, Greeks, Romans, ALL beliefs, religions, and teachings find their HERITAGE AND SOURCE from Egypt. I could explain it but Ray NAILS the truth on this matter. "SCRIPTURES" are not the problem. Truly, the "validity" of the "bible" can not be trusted, but there's a way to grasp the truth from the scriptures. From our conversations, I truly know how you feel deep inside. And even I had a mistrust in the "Validity of Ray" but Ray taught me a WHOLE NEW WORLD of the Scriptures where I can trust my bible now and stay faithful to a sound doctrine. I will be praying for you. Truly, We all love you and pray for your peace in Truth. Only...

Ephesians 4:21
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus

It's hard to find truth when youve run astray from this doctrine, to that teaching, to this book and that book. Without a foundation, the house will fall soon. I can say since our conversation, the TRUTH is IN Jesus. And I discovered that after putting time in reading ALL of those papers on Hell.... Scriptures CAN BE trusted.

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2012, 05:18:58 AM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 12:02:29 AM
That is the thing. I am starting to doubt the validity of the scriptures. What if jewish people are as carnal as other gentiles are, who thinks they are the chosen people of God than any other races that existed. Just like other religions think the same way. I am trying to hold on to it but I am doubting it big time. That is why I need you guys to help me get an anchor. A good reason to hold on.

Here's one of several examples, I doubt the validity of Satan. It is probably added by religion to scare the pants off the masses. If you read how the scriptures describe Satan to do, I mean Satan's job description in the scriptures are described as what Desire is and does.. The bible says Satan is the tempter, and we should resist and he will flee away. Satan seems to always tempt when there is Desire about something, good or bad. for example, if I resist something I desire, good or bad, it will flee. Maybe the people of the OT did not understand how the brain works, or what desire is, so they blame it on Satan when it is really Desire that did it.

I know too much... too much history. too much. do you guys know how the name Israel came to be? Israel had pagan origins related to the creation of the name. It's kind of interesting. really.

If you guys are willing to help me out. That would be great because I def need an anchor. There are too many that is slowly breaking down my old anchor. What if life is what it is? no religion is right? what if we are just here to learn, and to love one another despite indifferences. maybe God is really different from what Jews say he is. Did you even know that Jews believe in a different version of the messiah and how the uptopia will be like than Christianity does. They believe to be a superior race and will rule over the gentiles. Do you guys have any experience that you have beyond no doubt that God of the scriptures exist and is the correct one? what are your experiences. I would love to hear it.

That's good man. Don't tell us though, Tell whoever you think is "up there" listening. Just be honest with this unknown God. Tell Him how you feel.

Tell Him you doubt Him. You're losing your faith.

No one can be an anchor for you. You are shifting your trust from God to that of mortal man and there is no hope in mortal man.

If I were you, I would just let it go. Get mad, get angry. Be real. Be real with yourself, be real with this "god." If He's even there right? Heck, I say, if this is going to consume you, it will. If your faith is to be tried and refined right here, through this, then it will.

The outcome will be as it should be. Whether you believe in God or not, how could it be otherwise? If it were otherwise, we wouldn't have the outcome to talk about.

No amount of any other person's experience is going to convince you. This is something between you and the big man upstairs, if He's even there.

The greatest thing I learned with God, is to be real. He sees right through you, if He's there of course. So why try and pertend or talk to yourself like He's somehow out of the loop? Why come to us? I say, if you're angry at God then tell Him. Feel like cursing up a storm at Him? Then do it. Curse and swear. You'll regret it when He comes around to pull you by the pants but do it for now, It's what you need. BE HUMAN. When I'm angry, I do it. I'm not going to hide who I am to God, If He's there, He's seeing right through me anyway.

I think those are the best words of wisdom I can give you.

I have had a personal experience that solidified in my mind, beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is real, that Jesus Christ is the Lord but what does it mean to you? It's nothing but a story to you, you didn't experience, hear, feel what I did. For all you know and what you're probably thinking is I'm making it up. I never had an experience did I? You can't be certain at all and I don't blame you or anyone for doubting anything anyone else says about an "experience."

I know i'm probably being a bit unorthodox here but I think sometimes we get caught up in "formalities" with God when we forget that the most important thing, more important then all the rituals, spiritual laws, knowledge, doctrins, preaching, witnessing etc.. Is BEING REAL, BEING HUMAN. That includes being real with GOD.

Well, I hope this helps you honeslty, it might be in your face, bold, frank and blunt but... eh, it's what I feel lead to tell you.

God bless and good luck,

Alex
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2012, 05:27:52 AM: For the slavery reference;

I did read, on another apologetics website for Christianity that the form of slavery in the old testament that the jews had going on in isreal was more of an indebted servitude and not the kind of slavery you might be thinking that plagued america for much of her childhood.

Not sure if you heard that before and if it's killing you, it might be worth googling and see what you can find about it. Look at both sides of the coin my friend because we all have the same information, it's how we look at that information that dictates whether we will believe one way or another.

I know nothing more about this world than an Atheist, yet he and I, from the same information gathered, see two completely different worlds. Who is right, who is wrong? I can't tell ya buddy, that's something that if there is a God, then only He can.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 08:54:55 AM: I don't doubt who the Jews are of today. Like there are all kinds of Irish people, Chinese, and so on, we are mostly mutts nowadays anyways. but for belief wise for all races/religion, Some are hardcore, some are lax, Some don't even bother with the religion, some do. Of course I knew that the NT talks about spiritual Jews. They had to. If they are to recruit gentiles, they want the gentiles to feel that they can be spiritual Jews at heart, even if they are not Jews by blood. non Jews had an issue with that, and that is why Paul dealt with that the way he did. He told them they can be spiritual Jew at heart and not have to be Jew by blood. OT jews do not like gentiles very much.

my point is, I am talking about the mindset of the Jews of the Old and New Testament. not the purity of bloodline of today. I am saying that Jews of OT believe in a different messiah and how he would bring about peace. OT describes the messiah to be a "militant" ruler who will subdue all gentiles and Jews would be the superior race ruling over them. That is for another story. That is why the pharisees of NT have a hard time believing Jesus and kept waiting for the messiah. NT believes differently.

If you read the stories of the OT, they are not gentile friendly and they are all for their race. The Jews leaders even had to put in rules/laws to help them treat the gentiles right. It was that bad.

They are okay with gentile slavery and not Jewish slavery in their lands. I have a lot more evidence in bible how they treat their gentile slaves. They needed more laws for that to control them. It is all in the bible. That is of many reasons I doubt the validity of the scriptures.

I would understand how Moses came to be who he was. Think about it. I have seen it many times with pastors and sons in law who marry their daughters. They become mirror of the pastor and think just like him.

Take in account that Moses are like us. He think/feel like us. Consider the history of Moses's birth, upbringing and how he found out the truth about his adoption. If you have ever met anyone who's dealt with adoption or experienced how step children are treated. You would understand. There are a lot of psychological trauma involved.

Okay. Moses found out he was adopted, It is only then he "started" to get mixed feelings and see his people in a different light. We know how that felt. He left Egypt. He was taken in by a girl's family who he liked very much. he had his eye on her. It turns out she was the daughter of a priest who leads the Jews people in the valley with the Jewish faith. He wanted her, but of course he knew what he had to do to "win" the priest's heart and let him marry the priest' daughter. Since then, he felt he needed to please the father, so he can be on the good side.

I have seen this with churches. A friend's cousin, he was a good man, at one time, before all of that, you could tell him anything... you could be open.. but ever since marrying the pastor's daughter. He became close minded, he became defensive of the faith. He mirrored everything the pastor dad believed in. He became the pastor himself spiritually. He is training to take the pastor's place once the pastor gives up his position in church. He is next in line. He is the next leader of the church. Imagine the responsibility/stress to keep up appearance for the church. He had to lead, set a good example, impress the pastor, kiss his rear end, no matter what you think. Over time, it changes who you are.

We know that whatever information we take in, it becomes who we are. For example, any religion/religious person, it's very clear, animals and animal lovers, it is all clear, music and music lovers, it is all clear what they love. Whatever information we take out, makes us change who we are. The same applies for Moses.

Now...Naturally, as expected, Moses felt guilty that he left his Jewish people, family, relatives, friends, in Egypt when he left Egypt many years earlier. Family is the up-most motivator to make you do the right thing. Of course that is why he led them out of Egypt. It wasn't fair that he got out and not them. I would understand, i would do the same thing. He did it but not before he was "ready" as a leader, priest, etc. he had many wives, later on of course. Of course, for people to come help him if he ever need it, he had to get his people to agree, and of course He had to say that God commanded him to rescue them. they are all for it if God commands it.

You should see many things that Moses say in the scriptures, it was ridiculous. He is as carnal as you and me. no different, he is not more holy than you and me.

Moses said God is okay with Jews kidnapping women from the side of road so they can rape and take as wives. All because there were not enough wives for everyone from the previous war they had. That God commanded the slaughter of all male children, males, and all non virgins, and take only virgin girls that are virgins as wives. What is up with their issues virgins and non virgins. Non virgins deserve to live as much as the virgins did.

As for animal sacrifices. He says God says, word for word, what caught me is that it was so precise, to the letter. If you read carefully. at one point You will see that he says God commands you sacrifice fats of animals, but give the "meat" to the priesthood. That tell you something? People can't really eat fat, but they eat meat. They are all for free meat. Not everyone can afford lamb back then, but it was intense.. they said, even if you were unaware of your sin, and a priest or someone reminds you that you sinned, you are obliged to sacrifice an animal to get your sin forgiven anyway. God still condemns you even if you did not know you sinned? That is messed up to me.

If you read the bible, they give all the glory to God when something goes right with wars, their activities, etc, but condemns themselves whenever they lose the war because they "displeased" God. Like Babylon story. They got sent to Babylon all because they were a pest, preying on King Nebuchadnezzar trade routes to Egypt, his camels, etc. over and over and over. They were pushing King Nebuchadnezzar buttons to the point where King Nebuchadnezzar had enough of it, sent an army there. As a conclusion, Jews' Solomon temple and Jerusalem got destroyed and Jews got sent to Babylon as slaves.

Same goes for mindset of Christians of today. they believe that if something goes wrong, it is because they sinned and displeased God and when they did something right, it is because they did something right. That is why Christians judge the poor people of their church. they dont' help as much as they do with the "good ones." they give the poor a hard time when they ask for help to help pay for rent, ulitity bills, and so on. That is why they judge cities that got destroyed, like New Orleans. they say it is because God punished them. sometimes when something bad happens, it is what it is. Not because of what you did wrong. They believed in earthquakes, hurricanes, especially hurricanes, tornadoes, etc, to be punishment from God because of what they did wrong.

They did not know how and why tornadoes/hurricanes occur. they occur because of the right ingredients were given to create it. Hurricanes happen only during hurricane prone season and not before.. Jews people did not know that, and say it is God's way of punishing people. They don't understand the science behind it. we do now.

Ray got me this far. He did.. he freed me from church, freed me from spiritual/religious prison. he freed me from indoctrination, freed me from scotomas that conditioned me to believe in what my parents, grandparents, etc taught me to believe. The perceived truth rather than what the truth is.

I also know that people of past times did not have the right to question, for a very long long time. if they did, they would be persecuted and put to death. It is only recently that we are able to come out and be able to share our concerns.

Look up Gaileco, he was persecuted by the church because the scriptures teach that the sun revolves around the earth, and Gaielco found evidence that this is not the case, and that the earth revolves around the Sun. They gave Galileo a hard time because they were so stuck , so indoctrinated that they don't care what the evidence says but what the scriptures say. the perceived truth is a pain.

Ray is right about all traditions, heritage, etc coming from Egypt. They worship Baalism. Baalism just means you worship other gods. They worshipped Isis and Ra but of course they don't' say that in the bible specifically.

That is how they got their name Israel. Is is for Isis, goddess of Motherhood/fertility and mother to Horus. Ra is the sun god of the Egyptians, El just means High Lord. They also worshipped other gods in Babylon while they were there as well. That is why they believe a bit differently than their ancestors before Babylon. if you read stories before Babylon, and read stories of post Babylon, you will notice how it shifted somewhat. That is why you see hints of Christianity beliefs post Babylon than before Babylon. the religions in Babylon/Persian is another story.

Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt the validity of God. I do doubt the validity of the scriptures though. What if scriptures are the perceived truth of Jews and not what the actual truth is. I want to know how you know that God of the Jews are the right one, and all others are wrong? What if God is not what the Jews/scripture say he is. What if he is neutral, and wants us to be like him? neutral?

What if the Jews are as conditioned to believe as their ancestors did, without question and wrote about it, no matter what the evidence really says? What if they are as carnal as we are, they create their perception of God, and writes about it to fit their perception of God. many religions are like that? what makes Jews any different? What makes them right about God?
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Craig on August 23, 2012, 10:27:18 AM: Denise, after reading and digesting your posts I have came to the following conclusion.

You don't really have a problem with God, your problem is with religion.

If I was you I would seperate your thoughts from what religion teaches and seek God. Where do you find him? Well not with religion, it is an institution of man. Find him all around you, in your thoughts and heart. Try and quit sweating about things you can't do anything about or even understand for that matter, forget the past; you can't do anything about it. Concentrate on the things you can control. Be a good mother, wife, friend. Do right to those around you but don't force your opinion on them. Seek good, do good, listen to the small still voice inside and live your life. God will handle the rest.

Craig
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Extol on August 23, 2012, 11:47:05 AM: Denise,
I'm a bit late to the discussion but I'd like to give you two short reminders:

1. It's all a parable (or a shadow, if you will). Learning about the historical, literal facts of ancient Israel and Egypt is informative and interesting, but it's of little value spiritually. Remember to keep the letter separate from the spirit.

2. My kingdom is not of this world [John 18:36]. It sounds like you want the earthly, Old Testament Israel to be the perfect kingdom of God, when in fact it's anything but. The Israel of Moses' day was not the kingdom of God any more than I am Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 01:03:17 PM: I agree with Craig. But I guess it's hard to separate "God from religion" when you believe or think religion couldve made up God. Idk what to say. We're praying for you though. Actually, all Jesus did was for you :) :).

Romans 5:8
But God commends his own love unto us in that-- we as yet being sinners, Christ in our behalf died.

And my other concern is that you're filled with claims of the "Jews" said about the Messias, where are your scriptures for these?? How about sharing the actual verse. I say, try not to make a claim what the bible says, or what you heard or read: and then dont reference it - and THEN say,"here's the proof!" about messiah bein "militant", moses said it's okay to rape women (??????) - where is the reference. But I understand your concern; I was right beside you. I was confused then, in the dark. We'll be praying for you

At the end of the day, He bore your sins and by his stripes you are healed :) :) (1 Peter 2:24)

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 23, 2012, 01:07:55 PM: Quote
Don't get me wrong. I do not doubt the validity of God. I do doubt the validity of the scriptures though.

But Denise, You do doubt the existence of God when you doubt the validity of the scriptures.

JESUS IS THE WORD of God. And the WORD was GOD.

See? But you don't believe that. That's okay. That's not a problem for God. God knows, just as Ray said, those people who treated people as badly as they did and do, do it because they are afraid of God.

Re slavery, it was horrible sometimes. But not all slaves were treated horribly. And besides that, Jesus came to set the captive free. Jesus came to take captivity captive.

It doesn't matter that you don't believe God. God will show you the truth.

Someone asked Jesus before his death, What is truth?

My WORD is Truth. All scripture is designed to shake us up (make our earth quake), crush us, because in that condition, with some water (the WORD) we're easily refashioned.

It's only for a little while Denise. Compared to eternity, all this death and destruction is only for a little while. God will wipe away all tears; there will be NO more death, NO more sorrow.

You'll be alright. We're still praying for you.

Great responses Craig, Extol, Eugene (especially), everybody.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: gregorydc on August 23, 2012, 02:27:26 PM: Sorry for the paraphrasing. Scripture states that all scripture is for our using. Instead of seeing how carnal that Israel was ,use this to change you and what is around you. Teach not to be carnal, show love and mercy. Just because it seems Israel wanted to be the dominant race because of God gifts (blessings) to them it just shows how power can corrupt. Use this in your life to be more Christ like that what these books are for. I do know where you are coming from, I was in your shoes quite some time before I was lead to this site. And one more thing about the name Israel it shouldn't matter if it was from an Egyptian cross up of names , have you ever wondered what your name means maybe in another language it may be a cursing word? Ya never can tell. Lol. Don't , whatever you decide, get stuck in religious limbo or what anyone else tells you on this site. Only God can tell you in His own time, and it will come. My love and prayers are for you so that God will guide you gently to the truth.
just a thought from me
Greg
hope this makes since to you
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2012, 05:28:19 PM: As someone who has been forced to dive in, head first into everything science, the study of the human body, the world on a microscopic level and very mathetmatical, "logical" and scientific way, I can assure you, there is a God.

It baffles me that any of my fellow friends/students/colleagues could believe there is no God. I've learned that in talking with most, almost all of them believe in some creator or higher being. How could you not? It's absolutely illogical when you are privileged to the intricate beautifies and absolutely stupifying complexities of life, the human body, plants, the universe and it's laws etc.. I also find that most of them who don't believe in any particular God such as Jesus or Allah or what have you, don't because of how religion has portrayed these "Gods."

Even more surprising, most that don't believe at all, which isn't too many, don't believe simply because they cannot separate the idea of God from religion. To them, God IS religion and so because religion is often times stupid, illogical and perpetuates idiotic doctrines that the thinking and rational man see's right through, they are turned off by it and so reject God in rejecting religion.

Religion has made it to easy for the thinking man not to believe in God.

If you can come to the conclusion that I have devised here, if you can follow this train of thought then by very nature of knowing there must be a God, take it to the next level and ask yourself, would this God reach out to the creation He created and try to communicate with them? If you're thinking, "yes," It would make sense for a God to reach out to the ones He's created, then ask yourself, in what way shape or form did He communicate to us?

Maybe the bible would read a lot different, had Jesus Come now, in the 21st century where humanity has advanced in knowledge. Do you think God would have told us, like He did the people of old, that it was His nose that created the universe? Or perhaps He would have told us, that He did it with a big bang. Spinning atomic particles together, faster and faster, collapsing them inward on themselves and creating an explosion of epic proportions that would hurl into existence the universe and all it's wonders. Just maybe.. there are so many "x factors" that your tiny little brain could never account for. That goes for all of us.

Perhaps that is why it was wisely stated; My ways are not your ways and the wisdom of man is FOOLISHNESS in the sight of God. We are ANTS compared to Him yet He has every desire and intention of turning us into spiritual giants like Himself.

I personally believe that with what i know, of the world from a scientific perspective (though it is foolishness unto God, I am not boasting or uplifting this wisdom upward) that there is a God and I believe He did reach out to us. He reached out to us in the form of Jesus Christ, in the form of "I AM" of the old testament.

After you come to the conclusion that it is foolish to say there is no God then you just need to ask yourself, would He reach out to His creation if He is there? If He would then you need to figure out, in which way did He do it then? Was it buddhism? Hinduism? Islam? Judaism? Christianity?

Just some more thoughts for think over.

Hope it helps.

God bless,

Alex
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 06:37:48 PM: Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on August 23, 2012, 05:28:19 PM
As someone who has been forced to dive in, head first into everything science, the study of the human body, the world on a microscopic level and very mathetmatical, "logical" and scientific way, I can assure you, there is a God.

It baffles me that any of my fellow friends/students/colleagues could believe there is no God. I've learned that in talking with most, almost all of them believe in some creator or higher being. How could you not? It's absolutely illogical when you are privileged to the intricate beautifies and absolutely stupifying complexities of life, the human body, plants, the universe and it's laws etc.. I also find that most of them who don't believe in any particular God such as Jesus or Allah or what have you, don't because of how religion has portrayed these "Gods."

Even more surprising, most that don't believe at all, which isn't too many, don't believe simply because they cannot separate the idea of God from religion. To them, God IS religion and so because religion is often times stupid, illogical and perpetuates idiotic doctrines that the thinking and rational man see's right through, they are turned off by it and so reject God in rejecting religion.

Religion has made it to easy for the thinking man not to believe in God.

If you can come to the conclusion that I have devised here, if you can follow this train of thought then by very nature of knowing there must be a God, take it to the next level and ask yourself, would this God reach out to the creation He created and try to communicate with them? If you're thinking, "yes," It would make sense for a God to reach out to the ones He's created, then ask yourself, in what way shape or form did He communicate to us?

Maybe the bible would read a lot different, had Jesus Come now, in the 21st century where humanity has advanced in knowledge. Do you think God would have told us, like He did the people of old, that it was His nose that created the universe? Or perhaps He would have told us, that He did it with a big bang. Spinning atomic particles together, faster and faster, collapsing them inward on themselves and creating an explosion of epic proportions that would hurl into existence the universe and all it's wonders. Just maybe.. there are so many "x factors" that your tiny little brain could never account for. That goes for all of us.

Perhaps that is why it was wisely stated; My ways are not your ways and the wisdom of man is FOOLISHNESS in the sight of God. We are ANTS compared to Him yet He has every desire and intention of turning us into spiritual giants like Himself.

I personally believe that with what i know, of the world from a scientific perspective (though it is foolishness unto God, I am not boasting or uplifting this wisdom upward) that there is a God and I believe He did reach out to us. He reached out to us in the form of Jesus Christ, in the form of "I AM" of the old testament.

After you come to the conclusion that it is foolish to say there is no God then you just need to ask yourself, would He reach out to His creation if He is there? If He would then you need to figure out, in which way did He do it then? Was it buddhism? Hinduism? Islam? Judaism? Christianity?

Just some more thoughts for think over.

Hope it helps.

God bless,

Alex

GLORIOUS Alex. I love this. Everything points to A God in some way. I go the route of the God of Scriptures - cause it truly Includes EVERYONE. No doubt, it is centered on a "Jewish" sense, or "Hebraic" thought, but even Jesus great-great-great-great-great-greater than great grandma was RUTH who was a Moabite. It's not like the nation of Israel was PURE (by the flesh Israel). When many and various women were of different descendants. Speaking of Moab, remember that's Lots firstborn from his daughter (yikes). But geneologies and things according to "MAN" are Vain. It's all vain. So is religion. Whatever gives YOU peace, a reason to Love, a reason to build, a reason to share - go for it. I respect that Muslims pray 7 times a day. That's HIGH respect. They seek knowledge and if it's builds a strong morale go for it. But thats it; BE IT. For me and most of us - "Jesus is the Way, the truth and the life". I find peace in that. I love more; its changed my life good. But with no doubt - CREATION points to a God. Like ray said, for me - the HUMAN EYE screams a God. The function of my brain and the eyes is intelligence of a being, spirit, or something. Well that could lead to "how do you know if your God is THE God"?? Well many answers can come from that - but I will respond, find yours and find life and peace in Him :D :D.

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Gina on August 23, 2012, 06:45:40 PM: One more thing and then, I'm finished with this thread because it's annoying me. :)

Denise, You say that maybe the Jews have God all wrong and they don't really know God, so what you're saying is a bunch of Jews all got together one day and decided to tell the entire world that they were the chosen ones of God, right? Wrong!

If you were going to write the entire world a bunch of spin about how well you know God and what God wants and desires, the LAST thing you'd do is put yourself in a bad light. No, you'd make yourself out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, wouldn't you? I mean, if you wanted to convince everyone to follow your "god"?

Denise, the scriptures were inspired by God and the OT is FILLED with things that the Jews did that displeased God. They were constantly being chastised by God. Moses wasn't even permitted to cross over! You mean to tell me that if you were writing a book about yourself you'd put all that negative stuff in it about yourself, and put yourself in opposition to the ONE TRUE GOD if you're trying to get people to follow YOU and YOUR ways? I don't think so.

And more than that, in the NT Jesus commends not ONE SINGLE Jew for their faith. He does commend people who were not Jewish for their faith.

What does that tell you?

I hope that helps a little. I gotta run...........
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 07:25:30 PM: Quote from: Craig on August 23, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
Denise, after reading and digesting your posts I have came to the following conclusion.

You don't really have a problem with God, your problem is with religion.

If I was you I would seperate your thoughts from what religion teaches and seek God. Where do you find him? Well not with religion, it is an institution of man. Find him all around you, in your thoughts and heart. Try and quit sweating about things you can't do anything about or even understand for that matter, forget the past; you can't do anything about it. Concentrate on the things you can control. Be a good mother, wife, friend. Do right to those around you but don't force your opinion on them. Seek good, do good, listen to the small still voice inside and live your life. God will handle the rest.

Craig

Craig,

That is exactly how I feel. Exactly that. Religion ruins man's perception of God to the point even I cannot trust any religion at all, it is so insane. Even I can see that. It is very clear. I just want to focus on loving everyone no matter what differences they have. It is not up to me to judge. The Jews people were so intolerant of sin, no room to learn from mistakes, no room to grow, no room to be able to learn. Just shut up and follow, or risk God's wrath or die. It's basically that. No mercy. We learn best from mistakes. Jews are intolerant of mistakes.

World prob would be a better place without Religion. Jesus did not start a religion, people did decades after he left. It's like Jesus tried to stop religion from ruling people's lives. there it comes again, religion starts up, and in many places and the world is practically worse than it ever was. I'm just tired... fed up.. with the atrocities that came with religion's history. It should be gone. The truth is.. we know deep down, we are supposed to love one another.. even children knew that without even trying.

Alex,

I do believe in God but I don't believe any religion knows who God is either but they think they do. They've abused that right too much to a point where religion are unreliable. Maybe that is God's plan for mankind. Wear them out with all crazy religions out there to a point where they all give up religion and start depending of everything that is of God. Love.

Revelation did mention that men will weep at the loss of the powers of the whore. (whore is probably the mother of all religions), they also say the men will get over it after a period of time grieving. The whore is made bare. Sometimes, Less is more. :) It is a thought.

Greg and Gene,

Yes, I have to learn to look at OT as example of the craziness that religion does to people and be much better than that. Someone who is more compassionate, merciful, forgiving, kind, etc. But what bothers me is that they say God approves those carnal behavior and enforces it as Law of God. That's a dangerous move on their part, especially when they say they are the most blessed of all races. But what the heck. It's all in the past. Jesus has come, he's set the path right and all we have to do is learn from the carnal heart of religions and let it go... walk the narrow path. I find that the more I let go of religion, the more free I feel. I feel more able to love other people than I ever did. When I was immersed in religion, I was prejudiced. the outside of the cup was clean, but not the inside...every since I left religion, I felt more focused on the inside, cleaning it slowly, one at a time.. and I feel more free than ever before, less prejudiced for sure. I just hurt for those who are stuck in religion's trap. It bothers me to see them stuck.. with the scotomas. unable to see. It's a prison. I know Jesus is the way. He didn't hold on a religion. I should do the same.

Gina,

I think I understand now.. Old testament are just examples of the craziness of religion that does to people that still goes on today. we should take the high road and focus on unconditional love for other people like Jesus taught. Thanks for that perception.

Denise
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 10:25:09 PM: John,

What if the purpose of scripture in OT is to teach us that religion does not work as proven many times in scripture? The problem is probably because we take every word in scripture literally and not get the point of the MSG the scripture is trying to state.

Like you see it all the time, religions take every scripture literally and not get the metaphor aspect of Ot? What It is saying... Religion does not work.... Religion doesn't work.... Look at how crazy they look... Like there's stories where they say when you sin, God punishes you, but really God punishes the people close to you to punish you for your sins...

It could explain why God of Ot seems so different from new testament. A god of love. Compared toa blood thirsty god?

Maybe God chose the Jews to teach us why religion never work? Theres many divisions, many different religions, and one one of them are intolerant of eachother. There is no love for other races but their own. Abuses Gods authority to meet their own needs?Maybe we are watching and learning from the Jewish people from a standpoint, as if watching them live their lives as carnal as possible? What if that is the purpose of Ot scripture? To help us let go of religion?

What kind of loving God becomes jealous and demands Abraham kill his son to prove his love for God and then Interrupt the killing seconds before? Issac was the innocent one. Imagine the emotional trauma Isaac got for seeing dad try to kill him. Imagine how much hurt abraham had to go thru bec he had to kill his son. That is not love.

That's a jealous God that wants to traumatize you as much as possible. Even those who did what Abraham did in our current time period is labeled crazy for trying to kill his son bec God told him to. That is one example of craziness. You remember andrea yates and many others?

Jesus taught compassion, mercy, kindness, etc opposite of what "God" of the old testament seemed to teach. Like God punished king David by killing his firstborn as punishment, Jews believes that whatever bad happens in your life. it is God punishing you for your sins. It is Gods wrath...but baby was born sick... According to scripture and only lived a week.

We get babies who are born sick even today but their lives are saved, thanks to medical technology.King David's time did not know how to to help the child, so they count the death of their firstborn as punishment from God. According to Samuel.

Heres another example.. God punishes all the firstborns of Egyptians because pharaoh wouldn't release the slaves... God punished the firstborns for someone else sins.. The real reason they died is not because of God. The thing is, firstborns eat a larger portion than younger children does. Thr red tide that they count as blood, caused thr poisoning of the food they ate. Anmals got sick and so on...It made them sick that many died. They did not understand red tide...red tide causes so many problems. You can look up red tide.

Anyways. What kind of God punishes the innocents for the sins of someone else? They have every right o live and they are children?!! That is not love. Jesus teaches love, and Ot teaches a bloodthirsty and jealous God and Jesus is the selfsame God of Ot and nt It sounds like maybe Jesus was schizophrenic or we didn't get the whole story.

Unless we are looking at the scripture wrong and not getting it?
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: newgene87 on August 23, 2012, 10:49:24 PM: Quote from: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 10:25:09 PM
John,

What if the purpose of scripture in OT is to teach us that religion does not work as proven many times in scripture? The problem is probably because we take every word in scripture literally and not get the point of the MSG the scripture is trying to state.

Like you see it all the time, religions take every scripture literally and not get the metaphor aspect of Ot? What It is saying... Religion does not work.... Religion doesn't work.... Look at how crazy they look... Like there's stories where they say when you sin, God punishes you, but really God punishes the people close to you to punish you for your sins...

It could explain why God of Ot seems so different from new testament. A god of love. Compared toa blood thirsty god?

Maybe God chose the Jews to teach us why religion never work? Theres many divisions, many different religions, and one one of them are intolerant of eachother. There is no love for other races but their own. Abuses Gods authority to meet their own needs?Maybe we are watching and learning from the Jewish people from a standpoint, as if watching them live their lives as carnal as possible? What if that is the purpose of Ot scripture? To help us let go of religion?

What kind of loving God becomes jealous and demands Abraham kill his son to prove his love for God and then Interrupt the killing seconds before? Issac was the innocent one. Imagine the emotional trauma Isaac got for seeing dad try to kill him. Imagine how much hurt abraham had to go thru bec he had to kill his son. That is not love.

That's a jealous God that wants to traumatize you as much as possible. Even those who did what Abraham did in our current time period is labeled crazy for trying to kill his son bec God told him to. That is one example of craziness. You remember andrea yates and many others?

Jesus taught compassion, mercy, kindness, etc opposite of what "God" of the old testament seemed to teach. Like God punished king David by killing his firstborn as punishment, Jews believes that whatever bad happens in your life. it is God punishing you for your sins. It is Gods wrath...but baby was born sick... According to scripture and only lived a week.

We get babies who are born sick even today but their lives are saved, thanks to medical technology.King David's time did not know how to to help the child, so they count the death of their firstborn as punishment from God. According to Samuel.

Heres another example.. God punishes all the firstborns of Egyptians because pharaoh wouldn't release the slaves... God punished the firstborns for someone else sins.. The real reason they died is not because of God. The thing is, firstborns eat a larger portion than younger children does. Thr red tide that they count as blood, caused thr poisoning of the food they ate. Anmals got sick and so on...It made them sick that many died. They did not understand red tide...red tide causes so many problems. You can look up red tide.

Anyways. What kind of God punishes the innocents for the sins of someone else? They have every right o live and they are children?!! That is not love. Jesus teaches love, and Ot teaches a bloodthirsty and jealous God and Jesus is the selfsame God of Ot and nt It sounds like maybe Jesus was schizophrenic or we didn't get the whole story.

Unless we are looking at the scripture wrong and not getting it?

One thing that is true....EVERYTHING you are speaking of in these posts -- RAY COVERS EVERYTHING. He really really does. how about you take time out - say a week or two. READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE LAKE OF FIRE SERIES. From the first paper to the last. Ray goes from Old Testament to the New Testament, nearly touching EVERYTHING. And if i can speak for everyone who's ACTUALLY READ his papers - they already know your concerns. The main thing Ray touches is that WE ALL have let go of IS RELIGION. so where is all this talk of Religion coming from??? Maybe you're getting this site mixed up with another site because Ray is sound on the church of today being totally false, babylon, "if the church teaches it, its false", he clears up heresies that were here BEFORE translations of the scripture. youre barking up the wrong tree honestly ::).

Just go through the Lake of Fire series (it's NOT just about the "Lake of Fire"); every word, have your bible with you, a strong concordance, a dictionary, notebooks - ray already fixes all this. WE LET GO OF RELIGION by coming out of Babylon, out of the church. hopefully i can speak for the faithful members here, AT THIS WEBSITE - WE are looking at the SCRIPTURES ALL THE RIGHT WAYS. so you can let go of the notion of religion - we all have. this is truly "bible-truths", the answer is, getting back to the Scriptures. And the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament Scriptures may speak of "Religion" but once you stumble upon the New Covenant, it's made clear and revealed

Again, i would love for Ray to speak for himself. His Lake of Fire series has to be the BEST TEACHING since the writings of Paul (well to me). ray is NOT my God, but he truly CLEARS UP RELIGION, IT'S DOCTRINES, CREEDS, THE WORLD'S SYSTEM - and He gets us ALL back to Jesus Christ and Truth.

So, take time to read all the series. This talk of Religion is foreign to this site.

Eugene
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: Revilonivek on August 23, 2012, 11:32:23 PM: I think we misunderstood each other on the term religion. When I mention religion.. It means the belief of and worship of a super controlling power, their understanding of a personal God, or gods, It can also mean details of belief as taught. What Ray covered on religion is the details of belief that's taught. I completely understand that part, no problem. My part is people's perception of God that makes it their religion to a point where it looks/sounds so crazy.

I know the metaphor aspect, no problem.. but I am considering an entire different perception... examining it, that is. what if Old testament all together is a message from God... Religion or belief, or what they think God says.. anything that follow anything as crazy as this, is a BIG NO NO. It's like progonator, agnosistor, etc, the MORALS of the story.. Ray said something about the bible being one GIANT BOOK. Maybe God wants to show us our past and how dark it was, and then we transform, as we understand more and more, about our history, we change for the better, and so on.. I think God is neutral but it is the people who say things God says... but it is in the scriptures to show us that. Maybe?

I don't know.. because these people of God is CARNAL, as any of us, and I don't see why God chose them as his "chosen" but maybe they are the chosen race to be part of the scriptures, to be the focus of the scriptures of the old testament, and Gentiles/jews as the focus of the new testament as we evolve to something greater than our former past?

It is a thought.
Title: Re: if God wanted to forgive us, why can't...
Post by: mharrell08 on August 23, 2012, 11:38:15 PM: Time to move on folks