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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Grace on May 15, 2011, 01:44:18 AM
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I posted something earlier today about dying and heaven and didn't want to take over someone else's thread so I decided to start another one. I realized after reading several things on the thread that I must not be understanding or getting a complete picture of this so I removed my post so that no one would be deceived from my errors. I would like for someone to help me understand that heaven is spiritual and that it's in our minds? But Ray says God's heaven is not in our minds? is that correct? So is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom Heaven two different things? and do we physically die here on earth and wake up here on earth, only when we awake we are in a spiritual body on earth? or what?.....I think I am not understanding the concept of what happens after conversion and judgement. Can you help me? I would appreciate the ones who stick to Ray's teaching on this subject to help me see more clearly this picture and not have anything from outside of this brought in if that is ok. Some of this is all new to me. I have wondered about this from scriptures I had seen on studying on my own but never got a clear picture of it. Of course when I brought it up to a friend of mine the first thing he did was pooh poohed my thoughts on it and say that the earth and heavens literally are going to rolled up like a scroll and will be no more soooo....if that's true....where will the new heaven, new Jerusalem be? and where will the ones who are not judged in this age be judged? Please help me understand all this and please be patient with me. I have a medical problem that keeps me from concentrating on things at times and absorbing them so if I can't get it into my spirit today, tomorrow I may feel fine and have no symptoms so that it opens up clearly. I would just like to hear it here so that I don't get lost searching so much in so many different places, if that makes sense....
Thanks for you help!!
Grace
Grace
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You hold on to your questions for awhile and read Rays writings, study the LOF series. After some reading and studying Im sure a good many of your wonderings will be clearer to you.
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Hi Grace,
I hope to keep this simple as Ray has not expounded on the subject as yet.
I would like for someone to help me understand that heaven is spiritual and that it's in our minds? But Ray says God's heaven is not in our minds? is that correct?
Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
"God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space."
There are neither children NOR adults in heaven. There is no Scripture that
tells us that there are humans in heaven, or that anyone will ever "go to heaven." Heaven
is not a geographical location where we can travel to. Heaven is a realm--a much higher
realm than humanity in their carnal, earthly state. Salvation has to do with becoming
like Jesus Christ, not traveling to some different location in the universe.
God be with you,
Ray
"Heaven" has several meanings, as well as the fact that there are multiple "heavens." "In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the earth" according to the Hebrew.
When God refers to Babylon or Capernaum as being lifted up to "heaven," it is not referring to God's throne, but merely as being "high," "lofty," "exalted," etc. Jesus, however, came out of the "heaven" of His Father's realm, not high up in the sky or from outer space.
God be with you,
Ray
Grace I hope you can glean from his quotes that heaven is a realm or a state of mind or a state of existence/being
So is the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom Heaven two different things?
They are same
do we physically die here on earth and wake up here on earth, only when we awake we are in a spiritual body on earth? or what?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Not everyone will physically die but will be changed instantly.
Look to Christ as an example of the Resurrection.
Grace, when we awake we will be in a different state of existence and its not clear what this is.
Again, Christ would be the example of a glorified spiritual body. Read about some of the things Christ did while in his resurrected body.
John 20-21
Luke 24
As Ray say's scripture is fairly silent on the subject of our future spiritual lives.
.where will the new heaven, new Jerusalem be?
Again, not a place of geographical location.
New Heaven = new mind, new state of existence
New Jerusalem = new kingdom, new church, we are/will be new Jerusalem; neither of which are in some place.
where will the ones who are not judged in this age be judged?
When resurrected there is one of two places (places used loosely) you can be, with Christ or on earth
Its best to read as much of Ray's material as you can.
A good place for you to start is with the Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
Also, PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
Also Gospel of the Kingdom
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html
Grace you asked some very involved questions for a thread response, nevertheless I have no doubt they will be soon be answered.
I hope what I provided so far helps direct you,
Antaiwan
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Hi Grace
You must understand that in this present time you will never receive a satisfying definitive answer. Why is that? Because when somebody tries to describe "the heaven" he still uses "fleshly" words from our world. Of course these are words with deeper abstract understanding like spirit, realm, higher existence etc, but you will probably not find the right words to describe this "new world". That's way the Bible is shredded in mystery on this matter.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
We all don't have mind in this age to comprehend this future reality.
And we mustn't forget this Scripture below is true.
But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.
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Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I think Ray may have changed his thinking in regards to this verse:
Excerpt from March 2011 Bible Study 'Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
COULD JESUS BE IN HEAVEN BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION?
So Jesus Christ as a little boy didn’t go to heaven… is there any way we can find out was He ever in heaven? Is there a Scripture anywhere that says… there’s nothing in the Bible that says between, let’s say, age of 12 and 30 before His ministry actually started, that He went to heaven sometime or that He took a Sabbatical. But do we have a Scripture that says that He did go to heaven? [Comment: we have one that says He came from heaven.] Yeah there are several, I came down from heaven. Do we have one that says He went to heaven? [Comment: Don’t John 3:13 say that?] [Comment: After His death.] After His death He went to heaven, yes.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven…
Who said John 3:13? Does that say He went to heaven? [Comment: He was the only one that went to Heaven that came down from heaven.] Okay I have it right here.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
v. 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Well “which is in heaven” Tischendorf says that is not in any original manuscripts. Scratch which is in heaven, it should end with Son of man, period.
But we always look at that Scripture to prove that nobody went to heaven. They say, ‘you die and go to heaven.’ Christ said nobody went to heaven. ‘Yeah, Abraham was in heaven.’ No he wasn’t, Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
This one people read right over it, but this one also says, “He that came down from heaven.” He that came down from heaven, what? He’s the same One that went up. Let’s read it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it.
I think it's hard for any of us to describe something that none of us have experienced. Even Paul experienced a little and he could not fully describe it.
The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
Marques
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I read what you wrote, but how exactly did Ray change his thinking regarding this verse from before? I don't quite get that part. Basically, what I am asking is what exactly does he think now that he didn't before?
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN"
The above is a quote from Ray. This is the excerpt that Antaiwan (Akira329) posted and is from from an older study where Ray references John 3:13:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven
The section in bold ('who is in heaven') we have come to understand is not in any of the oldest manuscripts, so it is considered spurious. As Ray spoke of in his latest bible study, Jesus states He ascended up to heaven, not that He was dwelling in both at once.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I read what you wrote, but how exactly did Ray change his thinking regarding this verse from before? I don't quite get that part. Basically, what I am asking is what exactly does he think now that he didn't before?
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN"
The above is a quote from Ray. This is the excerpt that Antaiwan (Akira329) posted and is from from an older study where Ray references John 3:13:
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven
The section in bold ('who is in heaven') we have come to understand is not in any of the oldest manuscripts, so it is considered spurious. As Ray spoke of in his latest bible study, Jesus states He ascended up to heaven, not that He was dwelling in both at once.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Thanks Marques! It certainly does!
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The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
-Marques
I just wanted to add to what Marques was saying here. Another metaphor I use is that of the parallel universe. Heaven is right here where we are - we just aren't spiritual enough to see it. We're still tied down by this earthly flesh. It's the same as God is right here - we just can't see Him because our focus is still broken. :)
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Hi Grace,
I too have had difficulty relating to the spiritual realm. We have come to understand things in this life that are clearly visible in the world around us. But there is a parallel, hidden world/realm within it and not the spiritual realm. It's a realm so tiny that it cannot be seen with the naked eye at all. That realm is the microscopic world of organisms like germs, bacteria and viruses, that until the microscope was invented was unseen and virtually unknown. Organisms live in and on our bodies as well as in every environment on earth, it is not even known how many different kinds there are. This existence is outside the human domain, a realm of microscopic organisms that inhabit a miniature world.
Now I can comprehend that microscopic realm, so I can also think of the spiritual world/realm in similar ways and this helps me understand what the spiritual realm is. We know that the spiritual/heavenly realm is different than the physical world, it is invisible to our perception, but yet very real.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
Though the heavenly realm is different and invisible we are now beginning to look into the spiritual realm by 'seeing' the light/glory of Jesus Christ, by learning the truth - being made into His image.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 3:18 Now we all, with uncovered face, mirroring the Lord's glory, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the spirit."(CLV)
So we are in the process of being transformed, now in our mind by learning this truth and at His return our bodies will become glorious as His is.
Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with Him in order that we may also be glorified with Him.
Rom 8:30 And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.
Php 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself.
Right now we are getting a taste/earnest/guarantee of the kingdom by the renewing of our mind or as "the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21).
Eph 4:22-24 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
We will only receive the "inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you," (1Pe 1:4) if we are in the first resurrection and then this fleshly body will be changed to join with Christ as a glorious heavenly being.
1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
v. 51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
v. 55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
Well that took a bit more than I thought, but I hope something in it may help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
-Marques
I just wanted to add to what Marques was saying here. Another metaphor I use is that of the parallel universe. Heaven is right here where we are - we just aren't spiritual enough to see it. We're still tied down by this earthly flesh. It's the same as God is right here - we just can't see Him because our focus is still broken. :)
:)
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Here are a few quotes from Ray:
"Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock."
I believe this is the scripture Ray is referring too:
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I think Ray may have changed his thinking in regards to this verse:
Excerpt from March 2011 Bible Study 'Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
COULD JESUS BE IN HEAVEN BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION?
So Jesus Christ as a little boy didn’t go to heaven… is there any way we can find out was He ever in heaven? Is there a Scripture anywhere that says… there’s nothing in the Bible that says between, let’s say, age of 12 and 30 before His ministry actually started, that He went to heaven sometime or that He took a Sabbatical. But do we have a Scripture that says that He did go to heaven? [Comment: we have one that says He came from heaven.] Yeah there are several, I came down from heaven. Do we have one that says He went to heaven? [Comment: Don’t John 3:13 say that?] [Comment: After His death.] After His death He went to heaven, yes.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven…
Who said John 3:13? Does that say He went to heaven? [Comment: He was the only one that went to Heaven that came down from heaven.] Okay I have it right here.
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
v. 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Well “which is in heaven” Tischendorf says that is not in any original manuscripts. Scratch which is in heaven, it should end with Son of man, period.
But we always look at that Scripture to prove that nobody went to heaven. They say, ‘you die and go to heaven.’ Christ said nobody went to heaven. ‘Yeah, Abraham was in heaven.’ No he wasn’t, Christ said no man has ascended into heaven.
This one people read right over it, but this one also says, “He that came down from heaven.” He that came down from heaven, what? He’s the same One that went up. Let’s read it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it.
I think it's hard for any of us to describe something that none of us have experienced. Even Paul experienced a little and he could not fully describe it.
The best metaphor I can think of is from the movie The Matrix. When the character Neo was 'resurrected', he could see what the Matrix was really made of, computer coding. I think dwelling in heaven/being a spiritual being is like living in that computer code that makes up the physical world we see. Kind of like being in the back stage of a play. You know all the inner workings of the universe but are also able to present oneself onto the 'main stage', which is our current physical reality. Just a thought....
Marques
I was just about to point out the spurious "which is in heaven" passage but then saw you already did... You're awesome Marques! 8)
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Thank you Kat! At least I know I'm not the only one. I feel as though I am a part of this microscopic world you are talking about here....so small, almost non existent, when I look at the description of heaven. My finite mind can't even comprehend what I may be looking at here.
De 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
How man has exalted himself, eh? To think he is so intelligent when he is so miniscule in comparison. Indeed, how could we even think of building a house with man's hands!
Thanks again Kat!
Grace
Hey Grace,
You're definitely "not the only one". I doubt there is--or has ever been--a person walking this earth (save Jesus) that has complete (or even 50%) understanding of what exactly is "heaven". We know that the word "heaven" comes from the same Hebrew/Greek words that also mean "the sky". Perhaps that's an important key to unlocking the mystery?
Daywalker 8)
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Hi Grace, this is a great subject, thanks for starting this thread.
I have nothing to offer to help you nail it down but like you I find it interesting to think on what exactly is heaven. Some thought provoking answers have come up but none that really puts the question to rest. I think that is a good thing and the way it's supposed to be.
IF heaven is a state of mind and not a geological location that's fine by me and I can't wait to get my new state of mind as the one I have now freezes up often and needs updates all the time. Maybe the new one will be perfect. I think it will be if scripture proves out to be true in the resurrection.
Thinking about heaven, after the resurrection, in our new state of mind, lets not forget the other part too. We are gonna be somewhere and be doing some things at least some of the time at a geographical location.
So, I think, lol, that even tho we may be like Jesus, (only seen when He wants to be but always here in the spiritual realm) we will also be at the new geological location, the new earth. It might be the same old ball, just refurbished but that's just my thinking on it and it's definitely clouded with Babylonian influences.
Keeping in mind that John was in the Spirit when he wrote the following, it's hard to tell what is what and especially since we believe that this is a revelation of Jesus and not John and the words of Jesus are spirit, but here is my reason for some of the thinking above.
(KJV) Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)and a new earth:(maybe a new or refurbished geological location?) for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Starting to freeze up again, running short on RAM, got to shut down some programs to free up processing power.
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Hi Stacy and Grace,
Stacy what you were saying is my way of thinking Too. I believe that verse you brought out does happen like you were saying.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)and a new earth:(maybe a new or refurbished geological location?) for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And Christ told us that we should pray for that.
Matt 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
So God's kingdom/heaven will be set up on earth, by the perfect rule of Christ, that will bring about a greatly changed, "new" earth. Now for those in the first resurrection that would, of course also, also mean a great change in them... they would become "like" Christ!
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
When we have put off this carnal flesh we will no longer have that as a hindrance. That carnal body or mind will be no longer as we will be joined with Christ and most importantly we will be "like" Christ!
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.
What is it to be "one" with the Father? What is it to "know" the Father? Well isn't that what heaven would have to be?! That those resurrected or changed at the first resurrection will receive the mind of God and be made perfect like He is? We will be "like" Jesus and He "always" said and does the will of the Father, ALWAYS.
John 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
v. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say, and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is life everlasting. Therefore whatever I speak, even as the Father said to Me, so I speak.
So yes Grace heaven would be when the Elect are made perfect and can serve God perfectly. They will reign and rule with Christ over all those on earth who are yet to receive salvation, in perfect Harmony with God's will, never making a mistake!! That's what heaven must be to me and then this verse will be fully realized in us.
Luke 10:27 And answering, he said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.
v. 28 And He said to him, You have answered right; do this and you shall live.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Stacy and Grace,
Stacy what you were saying is my way of thinking Too. I believe that verse you brought out does happen like you were saying.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven (maybe our new, bigger, better state of mind?)
Well isn't that what heaven would have to be?!
Maybe not exactly as you all have explained. This verse came to mind while reading you all's responses:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Seeing that God dwells in heaven [Ps 123:1], this passage must have taken place in heaven. But to dwell in heaven does not automatically equate to being perfect in spiritual character, seeing that Satan is present as well.
Marques
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Interesting point Marques,
However please consider, Satan IS perfect for the role that he must play in God's plan.
Satan was created to be the accuser of the "brethren"
Satan does nothing that God does not allow and approve, for now.
Bob
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Oh okay, good point to make Marques. But I was referring the the Elect that would be perfected when they come up in the first resurrection. If heaven will come down on earth, then those in the second resurrection certainly will not be perfected into righteousness yet, just like Satan and the demons are not righteous yet either.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Oh okay, good point to make Marques. But I was referring the the Elect that would be perfected when they come up in the first resurrection. If heaven will come down on earth, then those in the second resurrection certainly will not be perfected into righteousness yet, just like Satan and the demons are not righteous yet either.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection. It takes great time to be perfect, as only God is perfect. I don't see that happening in the time it takes to bring one out of the ground or to 'change them' in a twinkling of an eye [1 Cor 15:51-52].
Patience is just one attribute that one must have to be perfect, and that attribute takes time to develop. When you add all the other fruits of the spirit, that takes even more time to bring to perfection. There's an email reply from Ray, I'll try to find it later today, where he mentions that we may have a lot to do even after Christ returns to gather His Elect.
The Matrix metaphor just came back to mind: even when Neo was resurrected and could see all the coding that made up the Matrix, he still didn't know exactly what he was to do. He had incredible gifts, but it took more trials for him to come to the point of knowing exactly how to 'save' humanity. I know this is an imperfect metaphor, but even still, just food for thought.
Marques
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1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him AS HE IS.
Not as He WAS or as He shall be, but as He IS...TODAY
Heb 4:7 He again definitely mentions a certain day, "To-day,"
The Resurrection of Jesus in us today, is not in what a human mind in limitation, might imagine.
The Kingdom of God is not in the mind of mortal man but the Mind of Immortal Christ, the Resurrection and the Life of unimaginable frontiers of liberty, peace and sanctification that the world can not know or see.
We are not of the world but of the Kingdom of God, with the Mind of Christ who says, YOU are the Light of the World, the Salt of the earth.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God.
The deep things of God are those things Eternal, not subject to space or time, friend or foe, birth or death, but to rebirth and immortality, in Christ both Alpha and Omega are fullfilled in His Kingdom within you and I.
Arc
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Hi Grace,
Back to your original question, "What exactly is heaven?," we obviously don't know exactly all that God's heaven entails, however, I have complete confidence that we will all know eventually. Patience is a virtue. :)
René
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But I was referring the the Elect that would be perfected when they come up in the first resurrection
Hey Kat
Warning: Do not take this personally, you always inspire me.
This is an insert from one of Mr. Smith's papers: Maybe a liitle offtopic here,
If you do not ‘do unto others as you would have them to do unto you,’ you are yet carnal. Now we could give a whole talk on that… do unto others.
If you do not “turn the other cheek” (Mat. 5:39) … you are yet carnal.
If you do not “humble yourself” (Dan. 10:12) … you are yet carnal.
If you do not “…deem one another superior to one’s self” (Phil. 2:4 CLV) … you are yet carnal.
If you do not “pray without ceasing” (1Thes. 5:17)… you are yet carnal.
If you do not “but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God” (Phil. 4:6) … you are yet carnal.I could go on for hours and hours. EVERYTHING in the Scriptures that admonish you personally, you must obey and follow or “ye are yet carnal.”
Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and
none can please GOD.
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Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and none can please GOD.
It would seem that if we believe the Lord through faith it shall be counted as righteousness.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Our righteousness shall also come by obeying Jesus' commandments and sayings.
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 19:17 ...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Peace...Mark
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Hi Gordon,
Where are we going to find these elects or the few when scripture says none is righteous and none can please GOD.
The Scripture does speak of a few/chosen/elect people that God will have made ready in this life to be the Elect and Christ will gather at His return.
Mark 13:20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
v. 31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Those few/chosen/elect are not the righteous of the world, quite the opposite.
1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, that not many wise men according to the flesh are called, not many mighty, not many noble.
v. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
v. 28 and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are;
v. 29 so that no flesh should glory in His presence.
It's only by His Spirit indwelling that there is any good in any of us.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Well Marques, I guess it's not clear if those raised will be perfect right away. Paul does say it was not in this life he would be made perfect and seemed to indicating it was at resurrection that he was expecting that. But that's an assumption I made.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may apprehend that for which also I was apprehended by Christ Jesus.
The elect will sit on Christ's throne with Him, a position of authority, to reign with Him.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
But I do understand that this make not happen instantaneously, I guess it might take us a little time to get used to our wings ;)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey kitty Kat & marky mark
I was just trying to clear up the quote by Markus:
I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection
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Gordon, I just read that same paper from the Mobile conf. of 2009 about "are ye yet carnal".
Gosh, it sure puts it out there-especially the cheerful giver part.
I can not do all of those things-so unless God leads me to do them-I will be carnal till the end. Just because we "believe" more correctly than a babylonian christian doesn't make me in and them out.
DOING the word and not just believing and hearing...is that the key to the first resur.?
I don't think so. HE holds the key and I think it is already a done deal.
Heaven is a higher spiritual existance w/ God...and it will be AWESOME!!!!
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Hi Gena,
DOING the word and not just believing and hearing...is that the key to the first resur.?
I don't think so. HE holds the key and I think it is already a done deal.
That which I put in bold print is certainly true.
Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
So His plan has already determined who would be His Elect and when and where and at what time they will be born, it is a "done deal." But we have to live out His plan for us and of course He has His hand in everything that happens in our lives. But the most profound thing that changes everything and turns us into "doers" is when the Holy Spirit is given us!
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you...
Before the Spirit becomes indwelling everything we do has some degree of self interest, it is only by His Spirit working in us that we can do anything good. It is by His Spirit that we will become "doers of the word" in whatever way He sees fit.
James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Gal 6:9 But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.
v. 10 So then as we have time, let us work good toward all, especially toward those of the household of faith.
Now I do not look on our 'works' much in the way as the church does. They think of it as going out and 'doing' and they will be seen by men to recieve praise. I'm not saying it is bad to help other, goodness no, but without God's Spirit it's always a selfish work people do.
Mat 23:5 They do everything so that people will see them. Look at the straps with scripture verses on them which they wear on their foreheads and arms, and notice how large they are! Notice also how long are the tassels on their cloaks!
Mat 6:2 "So when you give something to a needy person, do not make a big show of it, as the hypocrites do in the houses of worship and on the streets. They do it so that people will praise them. I assure you, they have already been paid in full.
I look at the "fruit of the Spirit" or putting on the "new man," which is displayed in our attitude and how we act towards others that is the 'works' we are being judged for right now.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
v. 23 meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
v. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I'm not sure it's a safe assumption that one will be made perfect immediately in the First Resurrection. It takes great time to be perfect, as only God is perfect. I don't see that happening in the time it takes to bring one out of the ground or to 'change them' in a twinkling of an eye [1 Cor 15:51-52].
Hey Marques.I found this and did a follow up with some Scripture on the subject of perfection.
Hope this helps some...
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
BECOMING PERFECT
Jesus Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, and that accomplishes the SALVATION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, because God will eventually bring every creature in HEAVEN AND IN EARTH to repentance and humble submission to Jesus Christ (Phil. 2:9-11, Rom. 10:9, I Cor. 15:25). But forgiving sin, pardoning sin, justifying our sinful past, or even redeeming our bodies and giving us incorruptible and immortal bodies, does NOT make us perfect in deed and character!
God is PERFECT! And God wants His children to BE PERFECT! And believe it or not God WILL ... MAKE ... US ... PERFECT!
"He [God] chooses us in Him [Christ] before the disruption [foundation] of the world, we to be HOLY and FLAWLESS [PERFECT] in His sight..." (Eph. 1:4).
"You, then, shall be PERFECT as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat. 5:48).
"I in them, and Thou in Me, that they [that’s US] may be made PERFECT in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me" (John 17:23).
"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man PERFECT in Christ Jesus" (Col. 1:28).
People are quick to say, "Well, NOBODY is perfect." That’s not true:
"For it became HIM, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many [that’s us and the rest of the world] sons unto glory, to make the CAPTAIN of their salvation PERFECT [how?] Through SUFFERING" (Heb. 2:10).
Yes, maybe no one but Christ is perfect now, but it won’t always be that way. Paul knew that it was a process and that it would be ultimately God’s achievement:
"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12).
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS..." (Eph. 4:11-12).
Say, did you notice that Christ was perfected through "SUFFERING?" Are we not to bear our own Cross? If they hated and persecuted Christ, will they not do likewise to us? Do we think the Scripture says in vain,
"Herein is our love made PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I Jn. 4:17).
GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE
God has a way of making imperfect people perfect. It is called FIRE! Whether purging or clearing a garbage dump, or refining gold and silver, there is nothing like the purifying, purging, and perfecting power of FIRE!
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jas 1:12 Happy is the man who is enduring trial, for, becoming qualified, he will be obtaining the wreath of life, which He promises to those loving Him."
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Peace...Mark
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Thanks Mark...and even reading the scriptures and other teachings, I still feel that perfection takes more than our lifetimes to achieve. The passages you referred speak of us becoming perfect which I have no doubt. But I don't think it's a wise assumption that this will be accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I just think it takes time, God's time.
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time, God's time.
"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller’s reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.
Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.
In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html
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"There are two twin brothers. On their thirtieth birthday, one of the brothers goes on a space journey in a superfast rocket that travels at 99% of the speed of light. The space traveller stays on his journey for precisely one year, whereupon he returns to Earth on his 31st birthday. On Earth, however, seven years have elapsed, so his twin brother is 37 years old at the time of his arrival. This is due to the fact that time is stretched by factor 7 at approx. 99% of the speed of light, which means that in the space traveller’s reference frame, one year is equivalent to seven years on earth. Yet, time appears to have passed normally to both brothers, i.e. both still need five minutes to shave each morning in their respective reference frame.
Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. We live within the confinements of our own spacetime cubicle.
In a way, Einstein has freed our minds from the spacetime cubicle....." http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html
I don't believe learning to be perfect in character is any way similar to traveling. If a sinner can travel at the speed of light, it doesn't change the fact they are a sinner. Just a very fast one. :D
At the 2008 conference, Ray went over how much 'work' it took for God to bring about creation...how it took God considerable time. And that was just to create something else, God was already perfect from the start.
Who here can honestly judge themselves and feel as though they are in any way close to perfection? We all may be closer than where we were some time ago, but thinking of the awesome character of our Father in Heaven, it seems we all have some considerable time to go. There's just no such thing as 'instant perfection', it's an oxymoron, it doesn't exist. And it's very humbling to realize as well.
But these are just some thoughts I had on the subject, not looking for a debate or anything.
Marques
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Hi Marques,
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM, and that I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
Jesus says that He did absolutely nothing of Himself, all that He spoke and all that He was doing was directed by the Father. He was totally one with the Father and as such He was perfectly in the Father's will and "always" pleased Him.
John 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things which please Him.
We are being lead by the Holy Spirit indwelling, but we all know we can not be perfectly in tune with the Father while we are still in the carnal flesh. We're learning, but but can't be perfectly like Jesus yet, as Paul states.
Php 3:12 Not that I did already obtain, or have been already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by the Christ Jesus;
My thought is that when we are 'born' into spirit, we enter His kingdom fully sons and daughters and become 'one' with God and then we "shall be LIKE Him."
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Christ was perfect even in the flesh, because He was totally and completely one with the Father. Won't the Elect be born into the kingdom and inherit the promise and be 'one' with the Father? So the Elect will be perfect, because they are one - totally and completely united with the source of perfection?
unit•ed adj 1 : made one : combined 2 : relating to or produced by joint action 3 : being in agreement : harmonious
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
v. 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
v. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
v. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.
The Elect will only be brought completely into His image at resurrection, then they will "always" do His will just like Jesus Christ always does His will. I don't see what we need to learn when we are directly united/one with God. Won't He tell/inspire us to say and do everything just like He did Jesus Christ? I don't mean take away our personality, we shall all retain our own individuality, but we will be perfectly in tune with God and serve Him perfectly, right?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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To add to the beautiful and profound insights offered so far:
We are told in the Psalms that God's life has no END, and in the Greek New Testament in Luke, that God's Kingdom will "have NO END." ........Of course the word "eternity" also means not having a BEGINNING either. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4489.0.html
There is one interesting statement in Isa. 57:15 which states that the "Lofty One inhabits eternity" (King James). But as we know the Scriptures know nothing of "eternity," this is a wrong translation. "Eternity" is taken from the Hebrew word "ad" and it has to do with the future, not the modern concept of "eternity." Concordant translates it "Who tabernacles the FUTURE..." and Rotherham has "inhabiting futurity..." Which suggests nothing regarding the past.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4475.0.html
If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes. The closest physical analogy you could come up with is a circle. Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future.
Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle? Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends? You can’t, can you.
Now I’ll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I’m telling you it has no beginning and it has no end. It doesn’t move in a circle, it is a circle. Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity.
Even your dictionaries most of them, not all, say eternity is an endless period. Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there.
Eternity is like a circle, you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end. Because it has no beginning and it has no end. Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth. So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is. And that’s where He introduces Himself to us. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0
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Kat, your post talks as tho we will be similar to earth ways and things---I just don't see that- when Ray says that its a higher spiritual realm--as we are IN HIM--- I can't see us w/ bodies, and personalities and such
or
I could be confused!! ;)
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Thank you for this Thread Grace. :)
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope:
~ God the Eternal Father of Christ the Alpha and Omega, is with us always, even unto the end of the world.~
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
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Thanks Mark...and even reading the scriptures and other teachings, I still feel that perfection takes more than our lifetimes to achieve. The passages you referred speak of us becoming perfect which I have no doubt. But I don't think it's a wise assumption that this will be accomplished in the twinkling of an eye. I just think it takes time, God's time.
Marques my friend, do you have chapter and verse that align with what you speak of? To assume something that is not spoken of in Scripture is treading on slippery ground. Gods Word is the only basis in which we should believe,not ones own wisdom.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If the house of God is being judged now,[because we are not yet perfect],does this also mean that we will have to be judged and overcome sin again, after the first resurrection? Is it not the process of overcoming that makes us perfect[complete]? Did not Jesus overcome temptation all through His life and then was perfected after His resurrection?
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
If we are to be as He is, then would not being raised from the dead be our perfection?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Peace...Mark
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So the Elect will be perfect, because they are one - totally and completely united with the source of perfection?
unit•ed adj 1 : made one : combined 2 : relating to or produced by joint action 3 : being in agreement : harmonious
I don't think unity, in and of itself, makes one perfect. We can keep the unity of the spirit now as Paul notes [Eph 4:1-3], but later in the same passage, Paul notes there are sins we still need to overcome [Eph 4:30-31].
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
v. 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
v. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.
v. 12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.
The Elect will only be brought completely into His image at resurrection, then they will "always" do His will just like Jesus Christ always does His will. I don't see what we need to learn when we are directly united/one with God. Won't He tell/inspire us to say and do everything just like He did Jesus Christ? I don't mean take away our personality, we shall all retain our own individuality, but we will be perfectly in tune with God and serve Him perfectly, right?
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.
Also, for what it's worth, the church also believes that one would 'instantly' be turned into a perfect saint at their 'Rapture' or whenever they believe God gathers His people. When I was in church, I never heard sermons on God's character...I don't think they had the proper perspective. And as I said before, for me personally, I feel that I am only beginning to gain some insight into this lofty subject. The church always taught this 'in a moment then BAM!' all believers saved and perfected in an instant....and I don't think it is true, just as I don't think any of their doctrines are true.
I'm not saying I have all the answers but I do know that The Father is greater in every way than we can imagine, as is His Son Jesus. And I don't see us being 'perfect' as them in an instant. I just feel it takes time and I embrace that, it's not a loss if it's something one has never had. I can't think of one thing that God has blessed me with that happened in an instant...can you?
Marques
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I used to completely agree with your comments in bold...you and I have even discussed somewhat in times past. But ever since the 2008 conference, Ray has been showing from the scripture the awesome character of God...starting to really dwell on Who is God and how He is. Not just His awesome power, but also His awesome wisdom, love, patience, long suffering, etc. Attributes that I never looked at in their proper perspective...even now it is a struggle. It's because of how great and wonderful He is, that I think it is not something we as humans will achieve in an instant.
That's why they're Elohim, and we're not. It's almost demeaning to God for one to claim He can't do something. Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection? According to the scripture, that's the ONLY way one achieves perfection, so you're essentially saying it will continue after the resurrection. If one is going to have to go through it again after being resurrected and after going through it already in life, what's the point of the first time? Why not just wait until resurrection time? It doesn't make sense the further one goes with it.
It's just my personal opinion, but one may have lost sight of the forest for the sake of the trees. I mean no offense in that though :)
Christ is our example. He overcame the world, and He was granted perfection and glory in His resurrection. Would one be so bold as to demean Christ that He had to continue going through suffering after He was resurrected?
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Marques my friend, do you have chapter and verse that align with what you speak of? To assume something that is not spoken of in Scripture is treading on slippery ground. Gods Word is the only basis in which we should believe,not ones own wisdom.
There are plenty of scriptures that speak of reaping and sowing Mark, with even Christ referring to us branches and/or seed bringing forth fruit [John 15]. Anyone who has maintained a garden or what not knows that it takes time for the garden to bloom. We are God's garden...I just am not assuming that the end of this age means we will be in full bloom (perfection), that's all.
If the house of God is being judged now,[because we are not yet perfect],does this also mean that we will have to be judged and overcome sin again, after the first resurrection?
Why would God have His Elect suffer great affliction and suffering and tribulation and trials and heartache NOW only to put them through it AGAIN at the first resurrection?
I really can't say it any other way. I don't know why you two assume that I believe we will have to be put through everything "AGAIN". I can't comment on every false assumption one makes from my comments, nor do I want to.
So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised. :D If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.
I actually believe this forum proves this point...all knowledge and understanding, but still lacking in spiritual fruit. We see it all the time and it never changes, no matter how many times a member points it out. Being perfect in the image of God is more than believing all will be saved and God is sovereign. And it's no point in me continuing because it's only revealed in time and even I'm still learning. Hope you understand
Marques
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So I think it will take longer to achieve perfection, so what? If it doesn't, I'll be pleasantly surprised. If you don't agree, good for you because it's not worth being contentious about.
It was not my intent to be "contentious" about what you stated. If I misunderstood regarding the "again" point, I apologize. I meant no offense.
Would the perfection be relative? I don't know if the creation will ever be equal to the Creator - short of an act of that Creator.
Reading back over my post, I can see how that may have come across as abrasive. I didn't mean for it to. Please forgive me.
:)
John
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I wonder if once the flesh has been finally severed (death or Christ's return), then would the characteristics that God's Spirit has worked to instill and develop in us then need to be refined. Granted, some of that refining process takes place in this life. I remember reading that article, JFK, and he did say it would be a beginning.
My only thought would be how would a creature that still needs refining be able to help judge others? It would seem that only Perfection itself would be able to truly judge righteously and justly.
Was this more in line with what you were saying, Marques? Now that I'm fully awake, the ol' brain is working better. ;D
John
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Hi Marques,
I see what you mean. But it would not be an instantaneously perfection like the church teaches, the Elect go through much preparation in this lifetime. But now we only have the earnest of the Spirit, when this carnal flesh is removed and we are born of God we would have full access to the Holy Spirit. Like Jesus could not sin while in the flesh, because the Father would not let Him, we too could serve Him without error, because He would see to it in us also. I don't see that as our acconplishment. I know we would not even come close to being like the Father, but like Jesus Christ to serve the Father.
But I know there is more to this, I guess we will have to wait for what Ray has to say on this.
Gena,
Kat, your post talks as tho we will be similar to earth ways and things---I just don't see that- when Ray says that its a higher spiritual realm--as we are IN HIM--- I can't see us w/ bodies, and personalities and such
Ray speaks on this in the article 'The Origin of Endless Punishment.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html ----------
The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body), the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can’t, so fear God.
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So I think the Elect would be "like" Jesus Christ was after His resurrection. He was able to appear at will in a flesh body that the disciples recognized or did not recognize, whatever He desired. But he could also disappear and be in His glorious spiritual body that they could not see. But as Jesus talked to the disciples and interacted with them He was the "same real person" as they remembered and I would think that will be much the same for the resurrected Elect. We would not lose our individuality and personality that makes us who we are. Why would God be creating all these unique people if not to give His family diversity and I would think He would want to keep that. Just some thoughts though.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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It is heartening to be part of the maturity in the discussion and sharing in this Thread.
Ray gives us “an analogy for God” ....... you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end.... Therefore TIME has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNITY. L Ray Smith
Though time be billions of years old to a human mind, and a human perspective, it remains so, that God, is not human.
“Still, we are hardly able to visualise this spacetime continuum, or deal with it in practical terms, because human consciousness is bound to the human body, which is in turn bound to a single reference frame. “http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html
This scientific insight might be seen to be Scripturally confirmed in the following :
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope:
Hope, unfettered to the human consciousness bound to the human body, in turn bound to a single reference in birth, ageing then death, is what we are finding in Christ who simultaneously is both Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, at the same TIME. That Time is Now, set free of past or future and liberated into a portal of time that God Himself calls Today. Heb 4 : 7
Neither having beginning of days, nor end of life, is the Son of God, the Alpha and the Omega of everything, and of Whom, we are, His Children.
God has answered Time for all Time in the creation of His Son, the Alpha and the Omega. Sounds like a Paradox that God the Eternal, would create a Son who is beginning and end. Yet to a human mind, the paradox is unfathomable because a human mind sees differently to God.
1Co 2:10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Jesus is Alfa AND Omega, simultaneously, at the same time, as in both cause and effect. Not over there Alpha and over here Omega, but THE Alpha and Omega, Total, Perfect, One in God, of God and with God.
A human will distance cause from effect, God from His Son, and time from eternity, though the Scriptures clearly state:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have OUR being...
Who is with us until the end of the world.
The end of the world is not the end of us, but of the world. Mat 28:20 ..........lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Certainly the duration of a human life is an instant by contrast to the backdrop of the age of the Universe being some 14 billion years old. Yet, extend this thought for just a moment.
For a human, birth and death are a beginning and end. Yet Jesus clearly demonstrates a breaking out of the box. Jesus broke a human lock on time, being death.
The way to the Resurrection and the Life of God has nothing to do with death that has nothing of Christ, Who has overcome death and is our wholeness and salvation made certain.
In a nut shell. God the Father has answered Time for all Time in the instant His Son showed us death is obsolete and has no tabernacle in His Life nor altar of worship in His mind.
How unlike a human can you be?
Jesus is the “missing link”.....
Arc
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What exactly is Heaven?
The Love of God for His Son and the Love of His Son for His Father is IMO, Heaven.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. :)
Arc
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Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.
You are correct when you speak of the Fruit of the Spirit,that is what being perfected of the Spirit is all about,being humble,repenting,and conforming Spiritually to our Lord and Savior.
Psa 10:17 LORD, thou hast heard the desire of the humble: thou wilt prepare their heart, thou wilt cause thine ear to hear:
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
Being argumentative was not my intention :),being true to the Word of God is ;).
Peace...Mark
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What exactly is heaven?
'heaven' is a spiritual realm, not a place.
from Here is an email. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3212.0.html ----- (ftp://Here is an email. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3212.0.html -----)
Insert taken from Mr. Smith's paper "The Father's Will"
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish. The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.
Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.
God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God. I’m trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.
God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!
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Here's more, all these inserts are from this website (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=12212.0), hope this can sum up this topic.
The Kingdom of God/Heaven are one in the same. It is the abode/mind of God in perfect goodness, holiness and truth. It is not a place, but a spiritual realm.
Your identity is your mind that produce thoughts, attitudes, behavior, intellect, awareness, reason, ideas and memory that come into our awareness from our experiences/life. This is an invisible realm, it's our inner awareness/personality... our heaven. When we begin to learn the knowledge of the truth, we are developing the mind of God, the process of being made into His image.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, "See here!' or "See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
(http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html)
GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN
Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:
God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.
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Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.
Why do my beliefs have to be outside of scripture? What exactly was said that was so unscriptural?
We all used to think that creation happened at a much faster rate than what it did. How come we also assume that we as believers will be perfect 'immediately' at the close of the age and ready to judge the world? As the beginning of this age took considerable time, perhaps the end as well? How is that unscriptural? If you, Kat, or anyone else had a simple scripture to support your beliefs, you would have shown it by now.
If you think the short time you have known the few truths of God is enough to make you ready to put on perfection, that's fine. I just don't believe it. I simply believe perfection takes considerable time, and that time is a lot longer than God grants us on this earth. If I'm wrong, so what, big deal...I'm not doubting any scriptures or doctrines, just thinking of a longer timetable than you all. It's The Father's timetable anyways, not ours, so there's no need to take it personal if one of us has a different perspective.
Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.
Thanks,
Marques
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Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.
Yeah, I second that!
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Hi Marques,
My understanding is where my study has taken me at this point in time, as it is for us all. I realize that this is not an I'm right or you are thing, it's a discussion, that's all. Now I am aware that I have a LOT to learn and I benefit from these discussions. It's just good to have like minded people to discuss these things with :)
Gordon, I see you posted a couple of things from Ray. Just so there is no confusion on your reply #54 the top part of that was from a post I made here on the forum and where it started with 'GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN' the rest was from Ray at this link http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Ray is studying the subject of who/what the Father is now and believes he is coming to a more profound understanding and plans to have a future Bible study on this. I have an email reply from some questions I ask Ray a short time ago that have relevance to this that I will post on new thread topic - 'Who/What is the Father?'
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Marques,we are all a work in progress and as Kat stated, it is a work of His accomplishments that He does within us that has any type of Truth to the Faithful. Anything that we try to bring to the table concerning our own beliefs outside of Scripture has zero Spiritual significance to the Father.
Why do my beliefs have to be outside of scripture? What exactly was said that was so unscriptural?
We all used to think that creation happened at a much faster rate than what it did. How come we also assume that we as believers will be perfect 'immediately' at the close of the age and ready to judge the world? As the beginning of this age took considerable time, perhaps the end as well? How is that unscriptural? If you, Kat, or anyone else had a simple scripture to support your beliefs, you would have shown it by now.
If you think the short time you have known the few truths of God is enough to make you ready to put on perfection, that's fine. I just don't believe it. I simply believe perfection takes considerable time, and that time is a lot longer than God grants us on this earth. If I'm wrong, so what, big deal...I'm not doubting any scriptures or doctrines, just thinking of a longer timetable than you all. It's The Father's timetable anyways, not ours, so there's no need to take it personal if one of us has a different perspective.
Let's give this subject a rest if all we are going to do is say the same thing over and over.
Thanks,
Marques
Marques,notice in the quote that you posted I use the word we two times. I was not picking on you in a personal way but rather in a general way concerning all of us,not just you in particular.If I have offended you in any way with my posts,I apologize to you my friend.
Coming together and sharing with like-minded brethren is a blessing,not a curse.
Heb 6:7 For a land, drinking in the frequent rain and producing good plants for those for whom it is worked, has a blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But if it sends up thorns and evil plants, it is of no use and is ready to be cursed; its only end is to be burned.
Peace...Mark
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Here's more, all these inserts are from this website, hope this can sum up this topic.
The Kingdom of God/Heaven are one in the same. It is the abode/mind of God in perfect goodness, holiness and truth. It is not a place, but a spiritual realm.
Your identity is your mind that produce thoughts, attitudes, behavior, intellect, awareness, reason, ideas and memory that come into our awareness from our experiences/life. This is an invisible realm, it's our inner awareness/personality... our heaven. When we begin to learn the knowledge of the truth, we are developing the mind of God, the process of being made into His image.
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, "See here!' or "See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN
Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:
God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.
Good stuff Gordon, that's appreciated and from a personal stand, timely as well. That's heavy stuff, at least to me, and a mind can get lost, quickly, in the thoughts of the matter.
Let the thread keep rolling folks. Interesting veiwpoints here and as Kat has said, it's a discussion, and we're all big boys and girls.
I can see where Marques is coming from and I'm leaning that way myself, however, that said, I think we're all probably in for surprises. But it's a good to read the mind of others.
Mark, this>>>>>>>: "Coming together and sharing with like-minded brethren is a blessing, not a curse." Yes indeed Mark, and so many times I've thought I didn't have the worthiness to even look on scriptures and Ray's teachings. Seeing this kind of thinking from other members makes the return trip here, to this forum, always worthwhile and points a wayward child back in the right direction. Good stuff Mark. ;)
gk
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What about the Apostle Paul? Did he not exhibit a remarkable level of "perfection"?
2Co 11:18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I too will boast.
2Co 11:19 For you gladly bear with fools, being wise yourselves!
2Co 11:20 For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.
2Co 11:21 To my shame, I must say, we were too weak for that! But whatever anyone else dares to boast of--I am speaking as a fool--I also dare to boast of that.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I.
2Co 11:23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one--I am talking like a madman--with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.
2Co 11:24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.
2Co 11:25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea;
2Co 11:26 on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers;
2Co 11:27 in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
2Co 11:28 And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to fall, and I am not indignant?
2Co 11:30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Pretty impressive spiritual resume. The thing is, is one doesn't know what he has, until he is tested. There was some very severe testing there. And the motive has to be right. The motive has to be love.
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
So how great is your love? Your "perfection" is not really based on your knowledge, but on your love, and how you have proven it.