Print Page - kill or don't kill

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on January 05, 2007, 01:03:46 PM

Title: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Sorin on January 05, 2007, 01:03:46 PM

I understand the difference between kill and murder as Ray pointed out, but I still don't see how 'smite them' versus 'love your enemies' is not God changing His mind. I mean in the OT he used the Jews to kill off many Gentile nations, smite every male and even to take their virgin women for themselves, now we are told to not even look at a woman to lust after her.
This is an email I sent Ray, and I understand he is too busy to completely answer so I decided to ask you guys now.

Dear Ray,
>
> I was hoping you can shed some light on this. I just don't see how God
> changes not.
> I mean the God of the OT seems alot meaner than the God of the NT.
> Infact they're so different they seem like two totally different Gods.
>
> Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou
> shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
>
>
> Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that
> is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself
> [rape]; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy
> God hath given thee.
>
>
> Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off
> from thee, which [are ] not of the cities of these nations.
>
>
> Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth
> give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that
> breatheth:
>
>
> Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and
> the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the
> Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
>
>
> How do you connect this with
>
>
> Exd 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Deu 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
>
> Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
> kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
>
> Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery [killing the males, and
> taking their women unto thyself is commiting both murder and adultery], Thou
> shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal [taking the spoil is stealing], Thou
> shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any
> other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou
> shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
>
>
>
> and
>
> Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
> do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
> and persecute you;
>
> Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
> which hate you,
>
>
> Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
> again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the
> Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
>
>
>
> I thought God changes not, but apperantly He doe s change. Not just from OT
> to the NT, but also in the OT it'sself , "smite them, thou shalt not kill".
> I'm confused.
>
> I understand that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life
> and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than
> there's something we can do about being born or not, but when He tells us to
> 'smite them, take the women unto thyself' then says 'thou shalt not kill,
> thou shalt not commit adultery/rape' I just don't see how He 'Changes not'
> and how that isn't contradictory one to the other.
>
> I mean He gave some permission to kill and commit adultery, then tells us to
> not even think it, or look at a woman to lust after her rather, and to turn
> the other cheek.
>
> I'm confused.
>
> Take care,
> Sorin

Dear Sorin:

God killed all the children in the flood, and all the children of Sodom, and all the children

of Gomorrah. And Who do you suppose was responsible for the Twin Tower collapse that

killed a few thousand? "Is there evil in the city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Amos 3:6).

Revelation tells us that Jesus is going to return to "MAKE WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS."

We look at God destroying children as something done to "innocent" people. But they are not

all that innocent. It was the "innocent" children of Sodom that a generation later werfe the adults

which God had to destroy. The commandment was to "Not MURDER," as opposed to no kill.

This is way too big a subject fo an email, however. I simply cannot continue to answer essay

type questions such as this seeing that I receive TENS OF THOUSANDS of emails. Hope you understand.

God be with you,

Ray

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 05, 2007, 02:18:43 PM

Sorin,

If I may answer this without having to go and look up the Scripture. I understand the confusion that you are now facing with this question. I will try my best to offer my two cents.

When God ordered Mass nations to be killed there were many good reasons that he did this. 1. He did this to keep the Jewish people pure, but they disobeyed in not eliminating all the pagan nations such as the Phillistines and they haunted and were a thorn in Israel's Flesh. When God ordered such things he did this to purify and only did it when there was no recourse. When a Nation refuses to acknowledge God we see several things happen - There is a chapter in Deutronomy that lists all the blessings and curses of Israel if they should choose to obey God or Not. These curses serve as a punishment but had one purpose - to redirect and focus people's attention to God. These served as a turning back. Notice that many times that God used mercy and this was a last resort.

When Ninevah for the first time truly repented becuase of Jonah's message, God did not smite their nation as he was planning to do. Sodom and Gomorrah were so evil and so unrepentant that they had to be wiped off the face of the earth.

If you remember before the Israelites and I believe it is in Genesis where the Lord says that Jacob's sons and daughter will go to Eygypt for a time becuase the sins of the native people living in Canaan had not yet reached full measure. In this God showed them mercy, yet in the end when the Israelites were taking over the promised land, they were beyond repentance.

I am in agreeance with Ray. Maybe you others can find these Scriptural references. Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: DWIGHT on January 05, 2007, 02:49:16 PM

Dear Sorin,

The literal scriptures are almost too much for us. Killings, rapes, murders etc., etc. But remember that Ray has told us that the bible is a great parable. And the first principal for us in understanding His word is; first comes the natural and then comes the spiritual. The first Adam was natural and the last Adam is spiritual. The old man, who is carnal, is natural; the new man, is spiritual. The scriptures are examples, metaphors and parables and they represent the whole picture of God's purpose. God wants children and God wants His children to be just like Him. He is very jealous over us. The old testament was us under the law. Death reigned in us and the law made us guilty. God wanted no part of us under the law of sin and death. He wants to kill all of the old in us and have us entirely to Himself in newness.

It is impossible to understand this with our old (man) mind. God has abolished the old; murdered it, killed it, ground it to powder. And now, through His Son has nailed it (all the old) to His cross. Therefore, in God's mind, all is new in Him. The old is gone and all is new.

Today, God is still murdering our old man with all its carnality and wickedness. Paul said, "I die daily.....we are buried with Him." Think of the scriptures as God and you. The old testament is the old you; carnal, wicked, lost under the condemnation of the law, dead in your sins. The new testament is the new you; being saved, under grace, no condemnation because your now in Christ. Old things are passing away and behold all thing are becoming new.

I hope this helps a little.

In His love,

Dwight

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Pax Vobiscum on January 05, 2007, 03:04:08 PM

At the risk of being censured....

This is one of the most... um.... incomplete answers I have ever seen from Ray.

In this world where the slightest hint of subtlety is transformed into a "spiritual truth" inerrant, one is left wondering how to handle entries in the Bible which are in opposition to each other. I am afraid, dear friends, that there are many, many examples.

But back to the issue.

A theology of good questions is much more profound than a theology of weak answers. I speak now more globally rather than of brother Ray specifically. If we convince ourselves (insert the debate on free will here, btw) that the Bible is 1) The sole written authority of God almighty; 2) is complete as compiled between 200-1600 CE (insert the debate on original texts here, btw); and 3) an anthology ordained of God whose books are to be used to cross-reference each other at will (there's that word again!); then we are in a terrible position to answer such a profound question as Mr. Sorin submits. Actually, as a nod to Sorin's post, I believe he is asking for a comment on an observation rather than an answer to an unanswerable question.

We are painted into a theological corner: We must formulate an answer that is 1) from the Bible; 2) as published and accepted by people who think a certain way; and 3) can withstand Biblical cross-referencing the likes of which can only be compared to a graduate-level thesis (another nod to Sorin for not mentioning the OT laws governing who is to be killed for some pretty tame behaviors -- that would be too easy).

So we are left with: 1) It is a mystery (my favorite -- at times) 2) The modern Bible has been miscommunicated, mistranslated, mistreated, misdirected, etc... and God only knows what the "original" text said -- but it must be inerrant -- so it only seems like a contradiction; and/or 3) The words attributed to OT and NT prophets are on par with the message attributed to Jesus; and the weakest most spiritually demeaning answer of them all: 4) Oh, if you could only look past the words and read them like I, then you might be given the eyes to see with that I have, you poor soul!

Personally, I will stick to the words of Jesus which have stood the test of time, everytime, all the time.
I leave much of our current debates alone so that I will have something to talk about when I get to heaven.

Peace

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 05, 2007, 03:09:27 PM

Pax V.,

Thanks for sharing this. Thanks for being bold to share your opinion on Ray. You shared a great thing to do, Fall back on the words of Jesus. Life is so simple when we do this and yet I find myself having to complicate matters. Thanks for posting.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: chuckt on January 05, 2007, 03:17:55 PM

at the risk of sounding insensative, its no big deal, one third of mankind is killed in war, others are killed in
unspeakable acts, we all die, are wwe not in the valley of death?

and so, what a great and glorious God we have, all those that died before are raised with us, all
will be given life.

this physical world is temporary!!

2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

guess what:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

here are wonderfull words:

20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.

woohoooo

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: gmik on January 05, 2007, 03:24:28 PM

Quote from: DWIGHT on January 05, 2007, 02:49:16 PM

Dear Sorin,

The literal scriptures are almost too much for us. Killings, rapes, murders etc., etc. But remember that Ray has told us that the bible is a great parable. And the first principal for us in understanding His word is; first comes the natural and then comes the spiritual. The first Adam was natural and the last Adam is spiritual. The old man, who is carnal, is natural; the new man, is spiritual. The scriptures are examples, metaphors and parables and they represent the whole picture of God's purpose. God wants children and God wants His children to be just like Him. He is very jealous over us. The old testament was us under the law. Death reigned in us and the law made us guilty. God wanted no part of us under the law of sin and death. He wants to kill all of the old in us and have us entirely to Himself in newness.

It is impossible to understand this with our old (man) mind. God has abolished the old; murdered it, killed it, ground it to powder. And now, through His Son has nailed it (all the old) to His cross. Therefore, in God's mind, all is new in Him. The old is gone and all is new.

Today, God is still murdering our old man with all its carnality and wickedness. Paul said, "I die daily.....we are buried with Him." Think of the scriptures as God and you. The old testament is the old you; carnal, wicked, lost under the condemnation of the law, dead in your sins. The new testament is the new you; being saved, under grace, no condemnation because your now in Christ. Old things are passing away and behold all thing are becoming new.

I hope this helps a little.

In His love,

Dwight

My thinking is like yours but it doesn't always come to me first thought. I first see it naturally- yes killing is different from murder. Yes, killing a child made sense bcz they grew up to be adult enemies. But when I see it spiritually as in parables it resonates within me that it is the truth. (of course, they can both be truth)
Jesus was showing us the weakness of the flesh, murder?? why if you even think to lust after someone that is the same as...--'same as' is a simile, not the exact same thing. I am sure He was speaking of the spirit.

Pax, an e mail is different from one of Ray's papers. He also may not have felt well as we have just found out. EVERYTHING on this forum is based on the premise that we DO think the Bible (greek/hebrew) is God's Words, and that Jesus is His Son.

Sorin, PM Joe or Dennis or Chris if you didn't get your answer. Maybe they can help.

love,
gena

Yes, woooohooooo

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TRUTHSEEKER on January 05, 2007, 03:39:38 PM

Quote from: Sorin on January 05, 2007, 01:03:46 PM

I understand the difference between kill and murder as Ray pointed out, but I still don't see how 'smite them' versus 'love your enemies' is not God changing His mind. I mean in the OT he used the Jews to kill off many Gentile nations, smite every male and even to take their virgin women for themselves, now we are told to not even look at a woman to lust after her.

In the old testament, God told the Israelites to kill/smite/destroy their enemies. This is true. The reason for this in its simplest form (I believe) is 1) God wanted his people to be a peculiar people. Not a people like those of whom they were surrounded with. Not to be adjusting to pagan ways and customs but rather to be the catalyst by which change occurs in the Earth. This of course was the natural preceeding the spiritual. The spiritual reality of this today is as children of God we too (the real jew) are to be a peculiar people. We too are to separate ourselves from the ways of the world and adopt God's way and alligning our will to HIS WILL. 2) God wanted the fear of Israel to be well known among all other nations. God had already promised to Israel that whereever their feet trod shall be their inheritance. In other words, as soon as a neighboring nation even heard that Israel was on the move they knew to get out of the way because they had a God who fights for them. The spiritual realization is that we too have a God who fights for us. Not only is He with us but IN us. When the world sees us, they ought to be the one's intimidated because we have God's holy spirit abiding in us. God did not change his mind when Jesus commanded us to love our enemies. You must remember that Jesus is the FULFILLMENT of the law and the prophets. As the fulfillment of the law, Jesus brought to us spiritually what the law could not do naturally or physically. In the physical, we fight,war, and battle our way in life as the Israelites did. In the spirit we are in what God calls rest. We who are in Christ Jesus are in God's rest. We don't need to fight for that which is physical but remain in the peace and rest that is in God which is spiritual. We no longer have to fight and kill surrounding nations in the flesh. That is all apart of the old covenant. We are not under the old but the new. Under the new we ought to love our enemies. This is all a part of being the fulfillment of the old or to say it better it is the spiritual reality of the new covenant. Not lusting after women or men for that matter is also the fulfillment of the old and spiritual reality of the new covenant. Once again, God never changes his mind. All God did was bring about the spiritual reality (the new covenant) of what the old covenant was preparing us for. I hope this helps. I left out all of the scriptural references for space sake. If you want them I can provide. Be blessed.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Slim on January 05, 2007, 03:41:00 PM

Hi Sorin,

I too have often wondered on the apparent change of heart that God had with the coming of Jesus. He was a harsh taskmaster many times in the OT and people died. God was very strict if we have an accurate accounting. And then he gave us Jesus and everything changed. I am amazed at his generosity. Thank God for Jesus or I might have been "smote" myself. I wish I could answer your question, but I cannot. Sorry, at least you know you are not alone in your observation. :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: SandyFla on January 05, 2007, 03:51:11 PM

Sorin,

I can understand your confusion in this, as I don't understand myself.

Some have told me that God used the Israelites to kill off groups of people that He had no more use for after He used them to punish Israel. But if God wanted them dead, couldn't He have done it Himself (e.g., Noah & the flood/Sodom & Gomorrah)?

Sandy

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 05, 2007, 04:11:01 PM

Sandy,

God did use the flood himself to kill the people excepting Noah and his family. If you know of any man who can flood the earth please send them down here to West Texas. We need rain and I think are in a drought condidion. There's another prayer request, rain for West Texas. There were also the 10 Plagues on Egypt. The magicians themselves said around the 3, 4, or 5th plague [I cannot remember], "back off Pharoah, please let the people go, THIS IS THE FINGER OF GOD." Yes He used Moses and Aaron to manifest the miracles, but he was behind it all along. We need to see God behind all these things and know this is His will. And there was another case where he killed someone for touching the Ark of the Covenant. Hmmm, and there were some people that were cuasing trouble when Moses and the Israelites were in the desert that God did cause the earth to swallow them up whole.

I believe it is more meaningful when God uses other vessels for judging and punishing. It makes it more down to earth and more poignant. Thought the finger of God is just or more awesome than his holy wrath at human hands. God will use anything for a wake up call. That's what I like, I see balence when I read the OT. God has risen entire nations for the purpose of scourging Israel, and I believe that is what is going on with the nations that are so Anti-American. I believe we need this type of chastisement, heck nothing has worked up to this point.

In the end it is important to remember that God is willing that none perish. How we work this in with this thread, I am not sure, but this I know God is control and has his reasons. I will and have no problem with those or myself when we question God's perfect will, becuase sometimes it does not make sense. I think this is good to do. It merely defines where we are and helps us grow stronger. Great thread.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TRUTHSEEKER on January 05, 2007, 04:42:15 PM

God will have no one perish because he is the one..."Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (I Tim 2:4-5). God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6) in this present age but it will not always be so. Jesus came for this very reason. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 05, 2007, 05:04:55 PM

Truthseeker,

Thanks for posting this. It simplistically and elegantly sums up what I have posted. Sometimes I am little too wordy. ;)

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 05, 2007, 05:26:33 PM

Hi,

I found an e-mail that relates to this thread. If I find any more I shall post them in this particular post.

Murder?
« on: September 17, 2006, 08:14:15 »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ray,

Why did God command Israel to murder in the OT despite the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"? Didnt Jesus say, "love your enemies"?

Thanks for everything, God has truly blessed me through your site. Hope to hear from you soon God bless.

Joed

Dear Joed:
You have it completely backwards: God commanded Israel to "kill" their enemies, however, the seventh commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER." The same holds for the New Tesament commandment (Matt. 5:21). The translators didn't quite get that one right. God used his physical nation of Israel to Judge the heathens in the land of Canaan, where as in the future God will use his Spiritual Nation of Israel to Judge the whole word system of Babylon the Great.
God be with you,
Ray

[/color]

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 05, 2007, 07:12:16 PM

Hi Sorin

Funny enough....this excerpt I am going to post now for you, was first introduced to me in the Poetry Thread! 8)Hope it helps you. It is from Ray's second letter to James Kennedy.

RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

THE RELATIVE:
THE ABSOLUTE:

" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."Unquote

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TimothyVI on January 05, 2007, 08:12:49 PM

I sincerely hope that I do not get banned, or get this thread locked. I am a little unclear about
whether we are permitted to dissagree or not. I have the same question as sorin about the appearance
that God changed somewhere between the pre Christ age and the age of Jesus.

Most of the replies to sorin in this thread were just an attempt to justify the actions of the old testament God in my opinion.
Of course God needs no justification, or reason for anything that He does. He is God!
That still does not answer the question, did God change? In the old testament God had people hacking up
other people for no apparent reason other than that they happen to be sitting on some land that God wanted to give
to someone else. O.K. that is a little stretch of the scriptures, but you know what I am talking about. If a group of strangers marched into your town and killed every man there, you would be hard pressed to not call it murder. So I think you are splitting hairs trying to draw a distinction between thou shall not kill, or thou shall not murder.

Then in the new testament, God tells us not only that we should not hurt our enemies, but in fact we should love them.
I don't see where this has anything to do with relavent or absolute. This is a question concerning the
apparent attributes of God. And did they change.

I have to agree with Pax Vobiscum. I read the old testament because there is much there that I need to learn.
But I tend to place all of my faith in what Jesus had to say while he lived among us.

Sorin, I hope that you got the answer that you sought in the replies posted above. I respect and love all of these people,
and really appreciate their attempts to help when we have questions.
But I fear that none of the answers were of much help to me concerning this particular issue. Even Ray's reply left me still needing an answer.

Tim

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TRUTHSEEKER on January 05, 2007, 09:52:53 PM

Quote from: TimothyVI on January 05, 2007, 08:12:49 PM

I sincerely hope that I do not get banned, or get this thread locked. I am a little unclear about
whether we are permitted to dissagree or not. I have the same question as sorin about the appearance
that God changed somewhere between the pre Christ age and the age of Jesus.

Most of the replies to sorin in this thread were just an attempt to justify the actions of the old testament God in my opinion.
Of course God needs no justification, or reason for anything that He does. He is God!
That still does not answer the question, did God change? In the old testament God had people hacking up
other people for no apparent reason other than that they happen to be sitting on some land that God wanted to give
to someone else. O.K. that is a little stretch of the scriptures, but you know what I am talking about. If a group of strangers marched into your town and killed every man there, you would be hard pressed to not call it murder. So I think you are splitting hairs trying to draw a distinction between thou shall not kill, or thou shall not murder.

Then in the new testament, God tells us not only that we should not hurt our enemies, but in fact we should love them.
I don't see where this has anything to do with relavent or absolute. This is a question concerning the
apparent attributes of God. And did they change.

I have to agree with Pax Vobiscum. I read the old testament because there is much there that I need to learn.
But I tend to place all of my faith in what Jesus had to say while he lived among us.

Sorin, I hope that you got the answer that you sought in the replies posted above. I respect and love all of these people,
and really appreciate their attempts to help when we have questions.
But I fear that none of the answers were of much help to me concerning this particular issue. Even Ray's reply left me still needing an answer.

Tim

I don't think that you'd be banned for disagreeing. You might be banned for causing contempt among other forum users but not for desiring knowledge. I too desire knowledge thus the moniker truthseeker. It is a healthy desire to understand that which seems hard to understand. The answer according to the Word is that God doesn't change...ever! That is a scriptural truth. God doesn't change. This is absolute truth. It 'appears' to us that God changes because in the old testament has God doing or saying one thing and in the new testament he says another. I'm in agreement with Ray that one is relative while the other is absolute. You mentioned that it appears that God had people hacking up
other people for no apparent reason other than that they happen to be sitting on some land that God wanted to give
to someone else. In fact, there was a great purpose in this. Not so much in the act of 'hacking' up people but rather to be a judge over all the other nations as God's anointed chosen people. I believe that God committed his people to doing this because as the scripture says the natural preceeds the spiritual. Old testament Israel were God's elect during that age. In the age to come we the true Jew will inherit the earth and not just some piece of land. We will judge the Earth with Christ. We will exercise power and authority and dominion in the Earth just as Israel of old were to judge the nations. I too would be hard pressed to call it murder if some group of people came into my town or home for that matter and destroyed my home and family. But remember, this is relative from man's point of view. The absolute in this is always God. He uses the physical to emerge with the spiritual. This is not God changing at all. The old covenant and its ten commandments were a schoolmaster for us so that we would know what the difference is between right and wrong. When Christ's spirit enters and changes the lives of them that believe we no longer need laws written on tablets of stone because God's higher spiritual laws will be wriiten on our hearts and minds. The spiritual is the fulfillment of the natural. This is God's way. I believe many will always have problems with this concept because as the scriptures says God's ways are not our ways neither are his thoughts our thoughts. We must have the mind of Christ to fully comprehend these truths. I encourage all in the forum to keep on asking and pursuing God with all your heart and I believe he will reveal you all you need to know.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: John on January 05, 2007, 10:15:33 PM

Quote

I'm in agreement with Ray that one is relative while the other is absolute.

Um..O.K

As if my confusion is not complicated enough, the replies to Sorins post have only added to it. I agree with Sorin, I am confused with the whole thing, and as far as one being relative and the other absolute, which is which? Is is an absolute that God ordered Israel to do what it seems? That seems simple enough to me, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, I would have to say yes, He did. Is it an absolute that Jesus gave the commandment to love your enemies? That’s another easy question, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, yes He did. Is it an absolute that from the OT to the NT that God changed? Ok, somebody jump in and answer this one and that should take care of it.

Is any of this relative? ABSOLUTELY

Back to complicated confusion,
Peace,
John

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TRUTHSEEKER on January 05, 2007, 10:57:30 PM

Quote

Well, in my little attempt to assist you...here goes. When Ray spoke on that which is relative he meant how things 'appear' from our perspective. The absolute is God's perspective or the reality of it all if you will. I think why you're confused is that you are confusing the two themes as it relates to actual events. Relative and Absolute (I believe) has nothing to do with actual events but rather differing perspectives. For instance, does it appear that God changed in his dealings with mankind....of course. That is relative from our perspective. With God, the absolute truth is that he uses natural, phyical things of this life to bring about his purposes and plans. In this he never changed. Better yet think of it like this. God planned the course of all of history. He has never diverted from his original plans in his dealings with man. He used physical Israel of old to portray what was to come spiritually for us the spiritual Israel...the church. I don't think I can explain this any better. I pray this helps. If not, keep on praying and ask God to show you his truth. Be blessed.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: John on January 05, 2007, 11:29:12 PM

TRUTHSEEKER,

I am OK with being confused with the Topic, but thanks :)

Peace,
John

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 06, 2007, 12:29:30 AM

Okay guys,

Here's some Scriptures.

Malachi 3:6 - "I the Lord do not change."

Hebrews 13:8 - "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

I am sure there are others that say that God does not change. I guess these two Scriptures are enough to answer the question for me whether God changes or not.

Of course you could argue this logically with the definition of God having a will that cannot be thwarted or any other premise.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: YellowStone on January 06, 2007, 01:10:09 AM

Hey Guys and Gals, well done on a very interesting question from Sorin.

Sorin, I think I have an answer for you that may seem very simplistic and not outside the confines of most of the other posts.

What I have learned is that there God has three very distinct stages and to a very large extent, so do we as his people.

Rev 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I think the answer to your question of God changing is found in the above verse. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending.

But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

These are three very distinct stages and a clearly seen as such in both the Old and New Testaments. It is my understanding that God, the WAS is found in the Old Testament. These were the days of the physical.Have you ever noticed that many (if not all) references to Angels in the OT are of men who ate, slept, etc. There are no such references of angels after the birth of Christ; angels are then spiritual.

I maybe off base here, but I do not believe that the GOD of the OT should be compared to the NT because the message ist totally different. Here is why I believe this is true.

1Cr 15:45

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

The Physical Laws, Kings, prophets, etc. of the OT are for our benefit far more than it was for theirs. They had God as their leader, he spoke to them and gave them all amounts of power, wealth and knowledge, but not one person who had it all, (to my knowledge) ever kept in good standing with God, not even Solomon. Obviously God's people did not learn in those days, for they were very much part of the world, just as God planned.

However, with the coming of Christ in human form saw the second phase of GOD, this is the IS part. Here, many things change; God's people are told not to be part of the world, in fact the lessons of Jesus were all parables and as such spiritual. Jesus taught humility, compassion and love. He taught that the the meek, not the mighty shall inherit the earth and that the first shall be last and the last shall be first and as mentioned previously, angels are only referenced spiritually. What is more, our faith too has to be in spirit.

Eph 2:8-9

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Wherefore the God who was gave countless physical signs, the God who IS gives faith to who he chooses. The OT (in my opinion) cannot be compared to the NT for it is like apples and oranges. (I LOVE BOTH) This is not to say that valuable lessons cannot be found in both, for they can; but for the most part, the philosophy of both is different. I believe that the leson that the OT contains is that even with God helping them in clearly physical ways, carnal minded man was still not going to find salvation without Christ. Is that not a lesson for us still?

Who knows how the God who IS TO COME will differ from the those past? So does this mean that God changed or does it mean that God is in control and all is happening according to his will which was set from the beginning?

Does this make sense to you or anyone? Comments are always welcome. :)

Great question Sorin!

Love,
Darren

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Kat on January 06, 2007, 01:36:53 AM

Hi TRUTHSEEKER,

Your explanation certainly clarified this for me.
I think you showed how the relative and absolute applies very well.

Quote

With God, the absolute truth is that he uses natural, phyical things of this life to bring about his purposes and plans. In this he never changed.

Quote

The absolute in this is always God. He uses the physical to emerge with the spiritual. This is not God changing at all. The old covenant and its ten commandments were a schoolmaster for us so that we would know what the difference is between right and wrong. When Christ's spirit enters and changes the lives of them that believe we no longer need laws written on tablets of stone because God's higher spiritual laws will be wriiten on our hearts and minds. The spiritual is the fulfillment of the natural. This is God's way.

Darren, you put the finnishing touch on it for me.

Quote

I believe that the leson that the OT contains is that even with God helping them in clearly physical ways, carnal minded man was still not going to find salvation without Christ.

Quote

The Physical Laws, Kings, prophets, etc. of the OT are for our benefit far more than it was for theirs. They had God as their leader, he spoke to them and gave them all amounts of power, wealth and knowledge, but not one person who had it all, (to my knowledge) ever kept in good standing with God, not even Solomon. Obviously God's people did not learn in those days, for they were very much part of the world, just as God planned.

I appreciate your answers to this, as it has given me a clear understanding, and settled this for me :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: DWIGHT on January 06, 2007, 03:01:20 AM

Darren, great post and Timothy don't worry about adding another twist to this thread, that's why we are all here. So let's re-look at what we said. Is the God of the OT different than the God of the NT? Like so many have stated, "I am the Lord, I change not...." Mal. 3:6. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.....etc., etc. Can we really say that God (Jesus) is different today than He was in the OT? His purpose has not changed. He came in the OT to be God to His people and that they should live in the land that He promised to them. And that He would dwell among them. First in the tabernacle in the wilderness and then in the temple. In both places He would only dwell in the holiest of all. Only a few priests could get close to Him because the place where He was was holy. He promised that land to Abraham and his seed. That land was was precious because it was the only land where He Himself would dwell. Anybody that was not a part of that seed was to be driven out, killed, annililated. This was a type of what was to come.

In the NT, where does God (Jesus) now dwell? He dwells in you and me, right? What part of you and me does He dwell in? He dwells in our human spirit which is now the holiest of all. "..........and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn. 3:6 Our spirit is the place where He dwells. It is now the holiest of all. That's how we can worship Him in spirit and in truth because that's where He is. We are the land, and within the land is the holiest of all where we can worship Him in spirit. Now the rest of our land consists of the soul and the body, right? That's where the battle is; that's where God is still driving out the old inhabitants of His land.

Have you ever heard Ray say, that when we die......what happens? Our spirit goes back to God, our soul goes to hades, ( the unseen or imperceptable), and our body returns to the dust. You know why are spirit goes back to God?.........Because He's in it. Now all His people are in this holy land....the real holy land, not Palestine. But in this land, God (Jesus) is still only letting a few priests get close to Him. Why? Because we are a chosen generaton, a royal priesthood.

But as Darren says, He was, is and will be. Well, we've seen the was and the is but what is He which shall come? "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the son of man clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." Rev. 1:12-16. This is our meek Saviour that John is talking about.....kinda sounds like the same who was, and is.....In the midst of the churches, He's still the same; driving out and burning out all that does'nt belong in His land which is His Kingdom.

I hope this builds us up a little,

God bless,

Dwight,

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: gmik on January 06, 2007, 03:27:42 AM

Good job Dwight. Works for me.

gena

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 06, 2007, 06:54:55 AM

The power available through the comprehension of Absolute v/s Relative is but ONE of the principles we need to master in order to navigate with discernment, the Spirit of God. The Principles and the exercise of them give us eyes to see the invisible.

1 Tim 4 : 8 For physical training is of some value, useful for a little, but godliness, spiritual training is useful and of value in EVERYTHING and in every way, for it holds promise for the present life and also for the life which is to come.

Other principles that need to be exercised and acquired are scattered throughout the LOF. Pivotal to these power tools are the teachings on Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word .

7 SPIRITUAL KEYS TO UNLOCK SCRIPTURE
1.   "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (physical); and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (1 Cor. 15:45)

2.   "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION (to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty) upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor. 10:11)

3.   "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of an private interpretation (Gk: 'is becoming it's OWN explanation')" (2 Pet. 1:20)

4.   "The words that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they are life" (John 6:63)

5.   "In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (2 Cor. 13:1 & Rev.11:3)

6.   "...comparing (or: 'matching') SPIRITUAL things with SPIRITUAL" (1 Cor. 2:13)

7.   "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which ARE and WAS and SHALL BE" (Rev. 16:5, also Rev. 4:8 & 11:17)

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm#keys

I for one do not want to hear these words spoken of me! Heb 5 : 11 Concerning this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull in you spiritual hearing and sluggish even slothful in achieving spiritual insight.

Ray says in his response to an e-mail : Matt 13:20

Think a moment about what you have just said. I wish people would read my material and LEARN THE PRINCIPLES involved. Once you understand the principle, then all of the Scriptures will take care of themselves. It does no good whatsoever to say one believes in the Sovereignty of God, but to then find verse after verse after verse which he thinks contradicts God' Sovereignty.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 06, 2007, 07:28:46 AM

Darren

You comment : But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

I know of no place anywhere in the Scripture where it says that God will BECOME.

God is TO COME does not mean He will Become. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TimothyVI on January 06, 2007, 08:40:33 AM

Darren, thank you for your answer. Your simplicity suddenly cleared up for me the question that I had about
God changing from the old testament to the new testament.
I guess it takes "simplistic" to finally crack through this thick skull.

If I see God as a taskmaster in the old testament, and only a loving God in the new testament,
It doesn't mean that He changed. He was both from the beginning. He chose to show us one side
of his being when it suited Him to do so, and was beneficial for our instruction.
Then show us more of His lovin nature after He got our attention.

I think that we may see even a third side of God when He chooses to come back and save the entire world.

Thank you all. I love what I am able to clarify through the help of each of you.

Tim

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: YellowStone on January 06, 2007, 09:04:38 AM

Quote from: Arcturus on January 06, 2007, 07:28:46 AM

Darren

You comment : But what is more important, is that he is the WAS, the IS and WHICH WILL BECOME.

I know of no place anywhere in the Scripture where it says that God will BECOME.

God is TO COME does not mean He will Become. God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Arcturus. I can see your point, but I think you will be able to see where I was heading with "become" from the following verse.

Rev 11:15

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This was the end-state, the final chapter and the God that "is to come" as you point out. I will agree, that I could have explained it a little better.

Thank you for pointing it out :)

Love to you,
Darren

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 06, 2007, 10:34:31 AM

Darren

I must be blind! ;D I could not see that you were heading for Revelations 11: 15 but I did see your concluding comment that you arrived at : Who knows how the God who IS TO COME will differ from the those past? So does this mean that God changed or does it mean that God is in control and all is happening according to his will which was set from the beginning?

To answer your question; the God who IS to come will not differ from the God of yesterday, today or tomorrow. This does not mean that God is changed or that God in not in contorl of all that is happening according to His plan that will not be changed but will lead to all being saved who lived yesterday, who are alive today and who are preordained to live tomorrow. :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: iris on January 06, 2007, 11:21:37 AM

This has been a really good thread,

and has made things a lot clearer for me.

Thanks!!! :)

Iris

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 06, 2007, 11:26:17 AM

This has been a very interesting thread. First off I want to say that it is greatly appreciated that we can have differences of opinion and not degenerate into strife and contention. Thank you all. This shows a higher level of spiritual maturity than what has sometimes transpired in the past. It appears we are remembering that we are all at different levels of understanding and all have unique vantage points, no two people can stand in the same exact place at the same exact time so no two people will perceive everything in the same exact manner.

My perception of the OT has completely changed from just a history of physical Israel as they journeyed with Jehovah to the Promised Land. I now see the OT as primarily the spiritual future of the elect as they bring all of humanity to God with Jesus (Jehovah) ruling with a rod of iron. Remember that the Spirit of Christ along with His elect are the Lake of Fire, as physical Israel destroyed the flesh of it's (Jehovah's) enemies, spiritual Israel (the elect) will destroy the carnality of the unbelievers, idol worshippers, etc. in the Lake of Fire.

How can it be called murder for God to take the life of someone? He gave it in the first place and promises to return it in a more perfect and immortal state in the future, this is where faith comes in.

If I were to take my brother's troublesome old car while he was away and trade it in for a a brand new car paying the difference myself would that be considered theft?

When discussing whether the Lord changes, as some spoke of earlier in this thread what appears to be changing is just another step in the plan and purpose of God's original unchanging plan. Let me use another example;

I buy an old house with some scrubby old trees and overgrown landscaping, my plan is to remodel this house so I begin to rip out old floor coverings knock down some walls and tear off the old dilapitated shingles and sub roofing. To the casual observer I am destroying the house, it looks as if it is being demolished.

Then I bring in a bulldozer and backhoe and start taking out the scrub trees and scraping the lot of all the overgrowth until the lot is clear and graded smoothly. To this same casual observer it appears that I was not satisfied to just demolish the house but apparently I must destroy trees and plants to get my jollies as well.

I begin bringing new sheathing for the roof and new shingles to finish it off as well as drywall and ceramic tiles working tirelessly to get this house not only restored but better than it ever was. To our friend the casual observer it is clear, I must have changed my mind and am not destroying the house but in fact I am going to rebuild it now. Did I really change my mind or was the casual observer unaware or misunderstanding my plan from the very start?

The next day new trees, plants and sod are put in, did I have a change of heart? After taking the land back to bare earth I then put in new trees and plants? Can't I make up my mind?

I hope these examples were of some help.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TRUTHSEEKER on January 06, 2007, 11:26:50 AM

I must say that I have learned quite a bit from reading everyone's responses. Especially, Dwight's. I have not seen the comparison between how God used natural Israel and the holy land as being the physical preceeding the spiritual; and the spiritual being how Christ dwells in our hearts like God dwelling over Israel of old driving out our carnality as Israel drove out the inhabitants of the promise land. That is a remarkable comparison. I can see it now. Truly God has never changed. Exactly as he planned in the beginning what will happen so it will happen. I must commend everyone on an excellent post. Probably one of the best post I've participated in as of yet. Be blessed all.

Truthseeker

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: John on January 06, 2007, 12:39:33 PM

WOW! What a difference a nights rest can make. I can see it now. Praise God!

Thank God for muddy water. If it were not for seeing through the glass darkly, I wouldn't be enjoying this new level of vision this morning. I sure do appreciate everyone's replies.

What a GREAT subject Sorin, I hope you found some clarity on this too.

Peace,
John

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Pax Vobiscum on January 06, 2007, 06:29:01 PM

You know those "magic pictures" that were so popular years back? The ones where you supposedly stared "through" them to see the underlying picture? I never could see them either, so here goes....

I must say I love most of the posts on this thread and am impressed by the timbre of the discussion.

Here's my understanding of the prevailing thoughts on this one.

1) God is unchanging and has an unchanging divine plan.

* I am with you on this one *

2) God has seen fit to exercise his "right" to snuff out "innocent" life -- but it's His life to do as HE will.

* I'm still holding on with anthropomorphic breath *

3) God orders and causes a whole lot of smiting in the OT.

* I am starting to slip away *

4) Jesus (God?) comes along in the new milennium and says, "I got some new rules to live by. No more smiting. It's all about the Spirit now"

* I'm a goner *

OK. Joking aside. If we put this in terms of strategy and tactics, where strategy is the plan and the tactic is the manifestation of that plan, then I am hearing that only God's tactics changed -- His strategy being the divine plan. That's a change, nonetheless.

If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.

Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus). If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.

There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.

"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general. There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not."

There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.

Help me out, here.

Peace

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: sj on January 06, 2007, 07:18:14 PM

If i could, I would like to offer an analogy...

There was a women preacher that use to come to a "campmeeting" that my church held... she would always get up and say "Isn't Jesus getting sweeter and sweet as the years go by?" The audience would clap and say amen in total agreement... then with a big smirk on her face she would yell "Gotcha! Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever!"

To be honest, this always kinda got on my nerves... because there seemed to be a huge difference in the way God dealt with humanity between the OT and the NT, even between the period where Christ walked on the earth and after He left... even between what is one of the main topics of this site "First the physical, then the spiritual" this seems to be a monumental change.

From the receiving end, it definitely seems like a change, doesn't it? I mean, there is no longer a temple or physical sacrifices... it seems like everything about how God wishes to relate to us has changed! But has God changed?

The way I have come to understand it is that this has been God's plan all along. He declares the end from the beginning and in order to do this He must also know all what lies between the end and beginning.

Like a master chess player, His purpose is victory... even though all of his moves may not seem to "match" or have the same motive... His over all plan remains the same. The changes in the way God interacts with man is not a change in reaction to mans actions, but rather is a planned action in order that man may react to God's shift. Kinda like a rutter on a ship, it directs mankind where we should be going according to God's plan.

No, He does not change... His plan remains the same, but that plan requires both the knowledge of good and evil, light and darkness, physical and spiritual... so that we can be created in His image.

Hope this helps...

God's Peace
Josh

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: YellowStone on January 06, 2007, 07:43:17 PM

Hey Pax, you answered your own question?

Pax wrote:

OK. Joking aside. If we put this in terms of strategy and tactics, where strategy is the plan and the tactic is the manifestation of that plan, then I am hearing that only God's tactics changed -- His strategy being the divine plan. That's a change, nonetheless.

If I understand you correctly, you assume that God's tactics cannot change. Why? Is it not beyond reason that God planned it this way, hence being the reason that the Scriptures speak with such distinction.

Although, your use of the word "Tactics" is correct based on our understanding of the word; I refuse to believe that God thought, "uh Oh, it's not working" ;D

We know that God did not change, he is who is was, is and will be, but are we so naive to believe that God's plan has only one phase? We know this is not true, hence there would not be the three recorded phases: Is, Was, and and Which is to come.

We must never simplify God to our level of understanding. I do not mean this disrespectfully, because our Father orchestrated everything from Super Nova's to the tiny atom which is the building block of all matter. He gave us joy, love, laughter, rainbows, flowers and everything else. He gives us understanding on his time, not ours.

My last point is that you say: "His strategy being the divine plan. That's a change, nonetheless." I am not saying you believe this, because I take it you do not, so I will put this "changing strategy" in a different light.

God's Grand Master Plan for His Kingdom and Mankind

Phase 1. (The Physical)

Create the Heavens (including the universe as we know it),
Populate it,
Create man,
Introduce the Law,
One chosen people,
Teach man the foolishness of his wisdom,
Promise a Saviour

Phase 2. (The Spiritual)

Introduce the Saviour (Christ Jesus)
Fulfill the law,
Introduce Spiritual matters
Call for a seperation from the world by his called
Promise the saving of all mankind,
Promise the becoming of the Kingdom of God in Heaven and Earth

Phase 3. (Which is to Come)

(Yet to be announced) :)

Pax, as you can see that this is a very simplistic plan, that has three distinct phases. The strategy (in our minds) may change, but the plan does not. God is not going back and rewriting the plan.

So is it fair to say that changing strategies means a changing plan? In our world, perhaps, in God's realm, NO!! :)

I hope this helps a little, comments welcome

Much Love to you and yours,
Darren

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Kat on January 06, 2007, 08:59:41 PM

Hi Pax,

I'm going to give a little analagy,
it's not going to be exact of course, but just see it helps.
I'm a mother, I have 3 children.
My main objective has always been to raise them to be mature adults.
When they were babies, I had to do everything for them, because they were helpless.
As they grew to be small children, I did not have to do the same as when they were babies,
but had to do a lot for them, to keep moving toward my objective.
As they became teenagers, I was not doing the same as when they were younger,
but again my objective was still the same as from the beginning.
Now that they are becoming mature adults,
the things I am doing for them now is nothing like the things I did as they were growing up.
I may have dealt with them differently along the way,
but not because I'm different, because they are.
But I can tell you I have not changed my objective or the ideas on how to reach it.
Of course I've had to deal with them in different ways over the years,
to make sure my objective was met.
I think you can see what I'm trying to say, my objective has been the same as from the beginning,
I have not changed that at all.
As a human mother I made mistakes and learned along the way.
But God is not like that, it has been said many times already,
He knows the end from the beginning, so He does not need to learn as He goes.
He does everything perfectly the first time and every time.
So if you can see He has not changed who He is at all,
but the world is changing as times goes by,
and so He make have been doing things differently to accommodate the changes in the world.
But that is the way He has ordained it to be, from the beginning.

I hope this was of some help :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: gmik on January 06, 2007, 10:33:04 PM

Quote from: John on January 05, 2007, 11:29:12 PM

TRUTHSEEKER,

I am OK with being confused with the Topic, but thanks :)

Peace,
John

I am so glad you got a good nites sleep!! ;D
gena

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: John on January 06, 2007, 11:07:51 PM

Quote from: gmik on January 06, 2007, 10:33:04 PM

Quote from: John on January 05, 2007, 11:29:12 PM
TRUTHSEEKER,

I am OK with being confused with the Topic, but thanks :)

Peace,
John

I am so glad you got a good nites sleep!! ;D

;D Me too! While going over the replies to this subject with my wife this morning she made a comment on it that made it even more clearer. She said, 'His methods changed, not His purpose' , this works for me.

Peace,
John
gena

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: gmik on January 06, 2007, 11:10:58 PM

I just re read this entire thread. Boy it is good. It has clarified things for me. Now, I will re read it again and take notes. You know, some of our threads are really full of scripture & insight then they get buried and forgotten!

love,
gena

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: andrevan on January 07, 2007, 01:05:10 AM

Quote from: Pax Vobiscum on January 06, 2007, 06:29:01 PM

If we use a parental model, I certainly understand how parents change tactics while the plan remains -- but it is still a change.

Even the appearance of Jesus is a change (if we accept the full divinity/personhood of Jesus). If He were fully God in the flesh, that certainly is a change.

There are examples after examples of the attributes of God changing (I will allow that the divine plan has not for argument's sake) in the Bible; so it is quite difficult to understand Malachi's "I change not" statement.

"I change not" and the "hic hoc hodie" statments in the NT do not specify -- they are quite general. There is nothing that says "My divine plan is the same yesterday, today and to come" or "My plan changeth not."

There are changes in relationships, circumstance, and attributes throughout our Bible.

Help me out, here.

Peace

Dear Pax.

An important thing to remember is that God never changes His mind. It was always His intention to have this course for humanity. For some of us is appears that God changes, but it was always His intention to do what He does.

God has preordained the changes within His divine plan, however, it does not follow that He changes or changes His mind or objective. It was always the Father's intention for His Son to become a man and die for humanity's sins and to prove to them that He loves them. The plan does not change, the changes are the plan. The objective does not change.
This is how I understand it.

Kat's analogy is a good one.

Love and peace to you.
Andrevan.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 07, 2007, 01:34:36 AM

To all who have responded to this thread,

You providing all the anaologies have really helped out. That was ingenious of you all to do that. Thanks for posting and explaining. Yes I agree with Joe, I am glad that we can speak our different opinions without digressing into unbecoming behavoir. You all have won so much respect with this thread. Keep up the good work.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TimothyVI on January 07, 2007, 07:45:26 PM

At least for me the question of whether God changed or not has been cleared up. He didn't change,
He was always all of the things that we have seen in Him.
After sorin asked a question three days ago we have used almost three whole pages answering each others
questions.

Don't get me wrong. I have really enjoyed what has been said, and have personally learned quite a bit.
But I don't think anyone has answered Sorin's real question.
but when He tells us to:

>" 'smite them, take the women unto thyself' then says 'thou shalt not kill,
> thou shalt not commit adultery/rape' I just don't see how He 'Changes not'
> and how that isn't contradictory one to the other.
>
> I mean He gave some permission to kill and commit adultery, then tells us to
> not even think it, or look at a woman to lust after her rather, and to turn
> the other cheek."

Sorin did not seem to be asking if God changed, as much as he was asking why God gave
contradictory commands. Now it is easy to say that He didn't change because He was
always contradictory from the beginning. I know that is ludicrous, It borders on blasphemy and I certainly would never say it. But the question still begs an answer. Why did he tell people
that they should never do something, and then command them to do that very thing.

Kat, In your analogy you were raising your children to be good kids. In doing so you had to change your methods based on their age and maturity as well as the circumstances at the time. But your anology would have more closely fit with Sorin's question if you had said that you taught your three children that they should never
fight or steal, and then told them to go next door and beat up the little girl over there and
bring her bicycle back to your house. And then declare that it was O.K. because you gave them permission to do so.

Do you think that your children would understand the distintion between when it was O.K. to steal and when it was not?

Therein lies sorin's confusion. And Ray did not answer him by saying that the commandment is "thou shall not murder", not "thou shall not kill".

Well, as I said earlier, I am totally at peace with my understanding of whether or not God changes now.
I still do not understand why his commands were contradictory. It was sort of like He was saying, do as I say, not as I do.
There are some things that I just have to accept and move on I guess.

You are truly a God blessed group of individuals. Thank you for being here, and thank Ray for providing this forum.

Tim

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: andrevan on January 07, 2007, 09:00:01 PM

Hi Tim.

The way I see the answer to Sorin's questions is as follows:

God is the law giver. He is also sovereign. They can only "break" His laws when He gives them the permission to do so. At this point they are no longer breaking His law. God is above His law.

When they broke His commandements without specific permission, they became lawbreakers and sinners. There is no contradiction in God and what He says or does. Without the law there is no sin.
God has the sovereign right to "override" His law to them when He requires something to be brought about.

This is how I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong ;)

God bless you all.
Andrevan.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Kat on January 07, 2007, 09:27:20 PM

Hi Tim,

Well the analogy was one way to look at it.

So in the OT and what God had Israel do, was a shadow or example for us.
As Israel destroyed the pagan nations, wouldn't that mean, this should also happen again?

God hardened there hearts, and they came against Israel, who destroyed them.

Jos 11:20 For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts so that they should come against Israel in battle, so that they might be destroyed, so that they might have no favor, but that He might destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.

This is speaking of the Day of the Lord, this has yet to happen.

Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together; Jehovah of Hosts gathers an army for the battle.
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of the heavens, Jehovah and the weapons of His indignation, to destroy all the land.
Isa 13:6 Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other peoples, but it shall crush and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Zec 12:9 And it shall be in that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This sounds very similar to what Israel did to the pagan as they took over the land.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: andrevan on January 07, 2007, 09:40:53 PM

Hi All.

Although Kat’s analogy is a good one, it is not perfect and only goes so far.

In response to Tim's modification to Kat’s analogy, we need to remember that the parent is not completely sovereign. The parent did not create the other little girl, nor did the parent create the bicycle. The parent does not own everything and did not create everything. The parent’s rights are therefore limited. The parent is also not perfect or completely just. God is both perfect and just.

The pivotal point is sovereignty.

In reality God is completely & fully sovereign. God is not limited. He is the very creator and owner of every single thing in every single dimension in the universe and beyond. He therefore can do as He pleases. He is the Sovereign God! :)

Hope this helps.

God bless.
Andrevan.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Sorin on January 08, 2007, 12:50:54 AM

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many replies and I'm glad things didn't get out of hand and that the thread didn't get locked or deleted or anything. I really need to read this thread over starting with my first post and everyone's replies, and I need to meditate on it for a while.

I just have so many things on my mind right now it's hard for me to focus on just one thing. When I first registered to this site again I was really 'on fire' for The Lord sort of speak, but now I don't know....

Take care,
Sorin

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 08, 2007, 02:57:49 AM

Dear Sorin,
Be of good cheer; this is MEAT! Do not try to take too much right now, b/c ..."all things work to gether for the good of those who have been called according to His purose..." No matter what, God is going to be in charge of wether HE opens your eyes to these things right now or if He wants to wait to show you these truths. Just b/c you're going thru a valley right now, doesn't mean that there aren't more times when you will be on fire for the Lord. Hang in there brother; rjust run to finish the race set before you; patience is a virtue ;)

this is a great thread that you started, thanks. :D

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on January 08, 2007, 03:35:40 AM

To All,

This thread just keeps on getting better and better. I am so pleased at the harmony that is between all of us even though we are discussing a very controversial topic. Kudos to all involved.

Sincerely,

Anne C. McGuire

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TimothyVI on January 08, 2007, 10:18:56 AM

Quote from: andrevan on January 07, 2007, 09:40:53 PM

Hi All.

Although Kat’s analogy is a good one, it is not perfect and only goes so far.

In response to Tim's modification to Kat’s analogy, we need to remember that the parent is not completely sovereign. The parent did not create the other little girl, nor did the parent create the bicycle. The parent does not own everything and did not create everything. The parent’s rights are therefore limited. The parent is also not perfect or completely just. God is both perfect and just.

The pivotal point is sovereignty.

In reality God is completely & fully sovereign. God is not limited. He is the very creator and owner of every single thing in every single dimension in the universe and beyond. He therefore can do as He pleases. He is the Sovereign God! :)

Hope this helps.

God bless.
Andrevan.

You are absolutely right Andrevan. I would never question the right of God to do as He pleased.
He is, after all, God!
I only question why he would command people to do things that were contradictory to His own
commandment. You have to admit that it creates confusion if nothing else. Especially to those of
us who are not yet quite able to understand His teaching method. I am trying to learn to understand.
I pray each time I study His word for Him to grant me this understanding.

Ray has accused Christians of putting round pegs in square holes, or something to that effect. Literally bending
things to fit what they want to believe. I think that we are guilty of the same thing if we do not question
things like this that do not make sense to a reasonable person. Contradictions like this are not reasonable. And it is not
understood by a reasonable mind to say that it is O.K to contradict yourself just because you have the right to do so.
Especially if you are in charge of everything and at random change a law that you said must be followed by everyone.
Would not God want for his people to know not only that He was sovereign, but that His laws were laws that all people must follow in order to be made more in the image Him. Which would mean that He himself would follow the same law if He were human. In fact that is exactly what He did when He came to earth as a human.

If we accept the fact that God would change his own law about murdering whenever it pleased Him to do so. Then how do we
condemn people like the KKK who claimed that they were doing God's work. After all, if you are doing the will of God
taking another persons life is killing, if not it is murder. Of course we would say that we know that is a crock. They could not be doing the will of God, they were doing evil things.
But if everything is done as God wills, then??? God did not say, thou shall not murder unless
you are one of My chosen people, for you it is acceptable to kill anyone who is not a Jew and is living on land that I want you to have.

I have much to think about and on which to meditate .

Tim

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 08, 2007, 10:57:55 AM

Earlier in this thread I attempted to provide an example of how tearing down & destroying something can be an ultimately positive thing. Let me approach it from another angle.

I tell my young son not to make holes in the walls of the house or to break any windows as he plays with his toy tool set. The next day he watches me take a sledgehammer to the walls of a house down the street, he also witnesses me breaking and tearing out the windows, ripping out carpet, etc.

As he silently watches me his mind is asking why is it ok for Dad to destroy and break things when he tells me not to do them. He walks away disappointed in his Dad and reports to his young friends how Daddy says one thing while he does just the opposite.

Am I a hypocrite? Do I tell my boy one thing as I do something else? Is there another answer?

Yes, I renovate houses. I must tear down the old tattered stuff that is no longer desirable so I can replace these old useless, musty, moldy, componants with fresh new materials that will make this house better than new.

Too bad my boy did not hang around and ask me, he has seen consistancy in everything else I do or say in regard to him, that is ok, he will find out the real answer eventually.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: TimothyVI on January 08, 2007, 11:31:34 AM

Cool Joe. ;D
I like that.

tim

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Pax Vobiscum on January 08, 2007, 01:53:45 PM

Like Al Pacino in the final Godfather movie, "Just when I thought I was out, TimothyVI sucked me right back in!"

I do appeciate Joe's final analogy about God's sovereignty. It make sense and is quite elegant. However, God's sovereignty is not in question (as I see it) and it does not answer Sorin's question.

First, God did not command us to to not rape and steal "unless I tell you to." But that is not the biggest paradox.

Imagine Jesus talking and saying in effect, "I have told you not to commit adultery, but now I tell you that anyone with lust in his or her heart..."

OT foods were unclean, but Paul tells us all foods are clean (even Twinkies??). If Moses and Paul are speaking with God's authority....

The example of these types of commandment changes are many.

Whether he is amending or appending it is a change.

This thread took a turn toward the sovereignty of God (which I do not question here), but if we return to the question at hand, I invite you to re-read my first entry into this thread.

Peace

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 08, 2007, 02:47:58 PM

Hi Pax,

Actually I did not intend to comment on God's sovereignity. My intention was to comment or illustrate our perception of His methodology and how some could see this as Him changing His mind or even hypocrisy.

I can see your point in regard to change though, but more like a tree will change through the course of the seasons rather than becoming something other than a tree or a different kind of tree.

His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,

Joe

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Sorin on January 08, 2007, 03:32:29 PM

Joe,

That was a really good final analogy, it makes sense to me but that still doesn't account for God writing on the stone tablets one thing and commanding them to do to the heathens another [ i.e. thou shall not commit adultery, smite every male, but the virgin females take unto thy self.... you see? ]. So the only logical explantion I see is when God said 'I change not' He was refering to His postion, who He is... God... and there are none beside Him and He will always be God
Because just like your tree analogy, even though it's still a tree through the seasons it does change from having leaves to no leaves and all that.

So I don't know, maybe I need to think this whole thing through more, and let it all sink in.

Take care,
Sorin

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Sorin on January 08, 2007, 03:44:52 PM

I got it! This is how, and why God did not contradict himself! The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, for the Jews [only]. In other words, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill [murder], and all a that was given to the Jews to not do those things unto another Jew only. They didn't mean you can't rape the heathens females, just not the Jewish ones. It didn't mean thou shall not murder a heahen baby, just not a Jewish one.

It's still pretty sad, but God is God, and there's nothing we can do about it.

That's how I view that, but I'm still trying to see how that justifies God though. Meaning, as being a God of love.

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 08, 2007, 04:12:41 PM

Sorin

Perhaps this will help. In returning to Absolute v/s Relative principles let us consider what Jesus has to say about this subject.

Matt 19 : 8 ….Because of the hardness, stubbornness and perversity of your hearts Moses permitted you to dismiss and repudiate and divorce your wives; but from the BEGINNING it has NOT BEEN SO ORDAINED.

Jer 4 : 28 For this will the earth mourn and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken, I have purposed, and I will not relent, nor will I turn back.

Gods Will and Gods Plan as we have been trained to observe through the teachings in the Myth of Free Will is that we resist God’s Will until we understand by experience that we are nothing and that we entirely depend on HIM for the fruit of HIS Spirit of love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, patience, gentleness, faithfulness and long suffering. Until we understand that we are weak, failing and liable to temptation. That we like to sin. We enjoy it because we are subject to vanity until we are released by God.
Until we are crushed by adversity and our arrogance is shattered in trials we have to understand by revelation that we on our own mission are not willing to be humbled or made into a contrite broken spirit. Until then we sin because we like to. We enjoy being hard, stubborn perverse and selfish. We think that is the way that God wants us to be and we are blind, decieved and delluded.

Gods Will is that we come to be pure in heart and clean of hand or conscience. This is His work within us over which we have to come to depend upon HIS Mercy, Grace and Unmerited Favor.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 08, 2007, 04:15:59 PM

Quote from: Sorin on January 08, 2007, 03:44:52 PM

I got it! This is how, and why God did not contradict himself! The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews, for the Jews [only]. In other words, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not kill [murder], and all a that was given to the Jews to not do those things unto another Jew only. They didn't mean you can't rape the heathens females, just not the Jewish ones. It didn't mean thou shall not murder a heahen baby, just not a Jewish one.

It's still pretty sad, but God is God, and there's nothing we can do about it.

That's how I view that, but I'm still trying to see how that justifies God though. Meaning, as being a God of love.

No Sorin I do not believe this is the answer either.

Remember the analogy I made with the boy and his Dad? What looked like wanton destruction just for gratification to the boy was in fact a plan to rebuild something better than ever for the Dad.

Humans in their carnal state rape, pillage, murder for personal gain, God uses destruction to rebuild and purify. If you have faith that God's plan is going to put everything back together better than ever then where is He being two faced or hypocritical?

This will be my last post in this thread, I think I have taken it as far as I can at this time.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 08, 2007, 04:28:39 PM

Matt 25 : 24,25 He who had received one talent also came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you had not winnowed the grain. 25. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is your own. 26. But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and tgather grain where I have not winnowed? 30 Throw the good-for nothing servant into the outer darkness, there will be weeping and grinding of teeth."

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: eggi on January 08, 2007, 08:09:42 PM

I haven't yet commented on this thread (anyway I can't remember commenting on it), but I've been reading it with great interest. God changes NOT, this we know. He has never changed His mind about anything, because if God changed His mind in the middle of history, He could not have been sovereign, because then something would have happened that he didn't foresee. So, this is not the real topic here, as we all know and understand the subject of sovereignity.

The real question, in my opinion, is: Did God give a perfect law in the law of Moses? There are many scriptures that say that the law of Moses is not perfect, Jesus Christ makes this clear:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-20 KJV)

The law of Moses was good for its cause:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Gal 3:24 KJV) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (Rom 3:19-21 KJV)

Paul is saying that now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, and that it's witnessed by the law and the prophets. Indeed "all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition" (1Co 10:11 KJV). Now does this mean that the law of Moses was perfect? It did witness to the righteousness of God, didn't it?

It's far from perfect:

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29 KJV)

The things of the law of Moses weren't even the real thing! Jesus Christ destroyed this law:

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15 KJV)

Why did Jesus destroy it? Wasn't it perfect?

Yes, it was perfect ACCORDING to God's PLAN. It was, however, like Joe has pointed out, the REALITY of the work going on. In order to know sin, we must pass through the law. Why? Because the law is not GOOD, it's only GOOD for a cause. Or, following Joe's analogy, it's not GOOD to tear down a house, unless you want to build a new one. The tearing down of the house isn't GOOD either.

The law of Moses was the schoolmaster and a shadow of good things to come. When you have used it, then you don't need it anymore. God even admits that the statutes in the law of Moses weren't good:

Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; (Eze 20:25 KJV) Behold thou art a Jew and restest in the law and makest your boast of God and knowest his will and approvest the things that are more excellent being instructed out of the law; and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. (Rom 2:17-20 KJV) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1 KJV)

Therefore, God in His wisdom, has done it this way, and there is no other way to do it, because there has to be a contrast!

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 08, 2007, 08:20:35 PM

AMEN! :D

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: rocky on January 08, 2007, 09:18:41 PM

The law is Holy and spiritual. The problem is man's carnal mind and the law of sin and death within man's members that gets activated when it tries to obey the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Holy:

G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Just:

G1342
δίκαιος
dikaios
dik'-ah-yos
From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous).

Good:
G18
ἀγαθός
agathos
ag-ath-os'
A primary word; “good” (in any sense, often as noun): - benefit, good (-s, things), well. Compare G2570.

Spiritual

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

Is this law talked of here, different than the law of Moses??

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: YellowStone on January 09, 2007, 12:29:03 AM

Quote from: Arcturus on January 08, 2007, 08:20:35 PM

AMEN! :D

Erik, that was an inspiring post and I happily second Arcturus in saying AMEN!! :)

Love to my family in Christ,
Darren

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Kat on January 09, 2007, 02:28:35 AM

I found this in Ray email's.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1908.0.html ------------

Murder?
« on: September 17, 2006, 08:14:15 AM »

Dear Ray,

Why did God command Israel to murder in the OT despite the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"? Didnt Jesus say, "love your enemies"?

Thanks for everything, God has truly blessed me through your site. Hope to hear from you soon God bless.

Joed

Dear Joed:
You have it completely backwards: God commanded Israel to "kill" their enemies, however, the seventh commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER." The same holds for the New Tesament commandment (Matt. 5:21). The translators didn't quite get that one right. God used his physical nation of Israel to Judge the heathens in the land of Canaan, where as in the future God will use his Spiritual Nation of Israel to Judge the whole word system of Babylon the Great.
God be with you,
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: ericsteven on January 09, 2007, 04:12:15 AM

Hi all,

My name is Eric, and I am new to the forum. I have enjoyed very much reading everyone's insights into this as well as other topics on the sight. I’d thought I’d perhaps share my thoughts and/or insights on this topic.

Sorin acknowledges in his post that he understands “that God is God and He does as He pleases, He can create life and He can kill it and there's nothing we can do about it anymore than there's something we can do about being born or not.” And most if not all who have responded agree. God’s sovereignty is not in doubt. The question is why would God seemingly contradict himself by saying “Thou shalt not kill” and then commanding the Israelites to kill their neighbors?

The verses that Sorin quoted in his initial post are from Duet 20.

First of all, when going to war against their enemies, the Lord commanded them:

Deut 20:10ff:

When you march up to attack a city, makes its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. It is only if the people do not accept the offer of peace and then go ahead and engage the Israelites in battle, that the Lord (verse 13) “delivers it into your hand, [putting] to the sword all the men in it.”

In regards to the belief that when the scripture says in Deut 20:14, “but the women….take unto thyself,” that God is commanding the Israelite men to rape them, we only need to look back a few chapters to Deuteronomy 12:10 to see how God command the Israelites to treat their female captives.

Deut 12.10ff:

When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

There is nothing is this command that convinces me that what God was referring to in Deut 20:14 was rape or adultery.

Now the above commands only apply to the nations that God is not giving the Israelites as an inheritance. In regards to the cities of the nations that God is giving to the Israelites as an inheritance, God commands the Israelites to completely destroy them in Deut 20:17. We only need to look to the following verse to understand why God gave this command.

Deut 20:18

Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

and also Deut 18:14

The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.

So it’s clear, at least to me, that God has given them the Ten Commandments telling them what not to do. And in order to keep them from falling into sin, it is imperative to annihilate these people.

But of course, we know that they failed miserably with this command, which is why they were more often than not, it seems, looked at unfavoringly by the Lord.

I don’t know if this was helpful, but I would like acknowledge one more thing that Sorin said in one of his follow up posts. He said that he “is OK with being confused with the topic.” I, too, am perfectly Ok with being confused or being in the dark on certain things relating to how God works the way he does. I take comfort from one of Peter’s final moments with Jesus as recorded in the Book of John. After Jesus predicts the manner in which Peter would endure death to glorify God, Peter turns and sees John following them. Peter turns to Jesus and asks, “Lord, what about him?” To which Jesus responds, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” In other words, (and I pray that I’m not “putting words” in Jesus’s mouth) Don’t worry about how I choose to glorify myself in others, which I would think includes our enemies. Just focus on the work that I have called you to do. That will be enough.

God's blessings to everyone,

Eric

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Kat on January 09, 2007, 11:49:15 AM

Hi Eric,

I glad that you have decided to post :)
You have brought out some very interesting observations, from the scripture.
I think you are right, there is more to it than just looking at the law 'thy shall not kill,'
and then to say He changed, because He commanded Israel to wipe out the pagans of the land.
It is not that simple, God is not that easy to figure out.
As there have been many perspectives and explanations on this one topic, it just goes to show that the scripture have many layers of understanding and many applications.
I think all that has been said here is good in building up our knowledge and understanding.
But we will not have understanding of a lot of things, in this life.
There is a lot of mystery about God, that we just can not understand everything about Him,
but there is much being revealed also.

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

1Co 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

Col 1:26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.

Col 2:2 that their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--

Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

I think you get my point, there is a lot of mystery to God,
we must pray for God to open our understanding :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: Pax Vobiscum on January 09, 2007, 01:19:01 PM

Well, we've just about picked this bone clean.

Some recently applauded statements are noteworthy, however....

eggi writes: God changes NOT, this we know.

Actually, there are parts of the Bible which states that God does not change. But as we have seen there are plenty of examples where it appears that there have been changes. Hold this thought for a minute.

eggi writes: ... because if God changed His mind in the middle of history, He could not have been sovereign, because then something would have happened that he didn't foresee. So, this is not the real topic here, as we all know and understand the subject of sovereignity.

If God changes His mind, he could still retain sovereignty. Whether He would be perfect could be doubted, though. The perfection of God is a hot topic in theological circles. Early Jews did not believe that their God was perfect -- only more mighty than the others. Besides, not all believers share the thought that God knows the exact future. Deism vs Theism -- but that's another thread.

eggi writes: The real question, in my opinion, is: Did God give a perfect law in the law of Moses? There are many scriptures that say that the law of Moses is not perfect, Jesus Christ makes this clear:

If the Mosaic Law is not perfect and it came from God, does that not put the entire OT in doubt as to its perfection? What about the entire Bible? You're right that Jesus indicates that the Law is imperfect. Paul, as we know goes even further along this line. Now understand, I believe differently than most folks around here -- I believe that it is clear that the Bible is an anthology full of contradictions and paradoxes for a reason. But that's another thread, also.

eggi writes: Why did Jesus destroy it? Wasn't it perfect?

Did you not just quote Jesus saying that He did not come to destroy the Law? Then tell us that He did so anyway?

Why is it so difficult to buy into the idea that the Bible contains errors? This I do not understand. We assign so many attributes to the Scriptures that they themselves never claim. It is a thread I would enjoy, but do not feel would be very welcomed here, so I pretty much leave it alone. The problem is that when discussing delicate issues that could rock the foundations of someone's faith, this lone issue becomes a pebble in the shoe of the discussion: painfully endured, impossible to ignore.

The "kill" vs. "murder" explanation is interesting and I can buy some of it in a Clinton-esque way. But why is there not a similar argument about the rape/adultery? What is the justification for that? "God made me do it?" But if "God made me do it" is justification, why does the Bible villify Judas?

See how easily it gets circular?

I truly am not trying to step on toes. Eggi, my apologies if it seems I came out too strongly on your post. I only offer that there are alternative beliefs held by people who are, like all of us, trying to figure this thing out.

Peace

Title: Re: kill or don't kill - does God change?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 09, 2007, 03:07:34 PM

Quote from: Pax Vobiscum on January 09, 2007, 01:19:01 PM

Well, we've just about picked this bone clean.

Hi Pax,

We are in total agreement on the above statement, there has been much scripture and many opinions posted in this thread. It is my feeling that we have taken it as far as it can go, for the time being anyway. If anyone has the need or desire to respond to anything posted here please do it one on one, privately.

This thread will be locked, at least for a while.

Thank you,

Joe

bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on January 05, 2007, 01:03:46 PM