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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: stello on August 22, 2016, 01:53:52 PM
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Last night i was praying with my wife and i thanked God for the way the world is. All of the pain, sickness, war, famine etc. Afterwards she was a little upset that i thanked God for all of those things. I tried to explain that everything we are going through is God's will and we have to go through it all. She asked the question if i'm thankful that there are children starving all over the world. While i feel sorry for them and everyone suffering i think i was right in thanking God for all of it, because we understand we all have to have a knowledge and experience of evil. Or am i wrong here? The scriptures do say to give thanks in/for all things.
stello
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A couple scriptures;
Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.
Joel
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stello -
Last night i was praying with my wife and i thanked God for the way the world is. All of the pain, sickness, war, famine etc. Afterwards she was a little upset that i thanked God for all of those things. I tried to explain that everything we are going through is God's will and we have to go through it all. She asked the question if i'm thankful that there are children starving all over the world. While i feel sorry for them and everyone suffering i think i was right in thanking God for all of it, because we understand we all have to have a knowledge and experience of evil. Or am i wrong here? The scriptures do say to give thanks in/for all things.
stello
I do not think this is an easy question to answer.
You want to pray according to His Will; and your wife is concerned about those that do not have enough to eat, and a lot of these (especially young children) die because of the lack of food.
We are all of God, and He can do what He wants with His Creation. However, His Word reveals a lot about His Will for His Creation, especially mankind - and He is Love.
Jesus taught us many, many things in the New Testament about the Love of His and our Father.
God is Good. God is not evil.
The way I look at it is this:
1. We had a wicked heart and our minds must be changed into The Mind of Christ.
2. He gave His Elect a New (caring) heart, and is renewing their minds into The Mind of Christ.
3. The Elects' hearts and minds should be to pray as He wants them to, as Jesus did (but only as they are led by His Holy Spirit, and according to His Revealed Word).
So perhaps, we should pray in this manner:
Heavenly Father, thank you for giving us Life and for your Grace, Goodness and Love.
Help us to live our lives as you want us to, in The Faith of Jesus Christ.
Help us to pray correctly, as your Spirit guides us, for those that you desire us to pray for.
Your Will be done, not mine.
Ray stated that he was constantly in prayer - and prayed all day long for the things and people that burdened him.
Jesus asks us to put our burdens to Him.
I hope this helps a little.
Kind Regards.
George
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When we thank God for the good and the bad, are we thanking him out of some perverted sense of loving evil things and pain? Its like when ray said, do christians need to LOVE terrorists, as in invite them into their homes, have dinner with them etc?? Or does 'loving your enemies,' that is AGAPE, carry a different meaning than 'PHILEO?'
Same thing applies here.
Do we thank God for all things, including the evil, because we enjoy suffering and pain? Or do we thank God for the necessary experiences of evil because while it may be unpleasent and painful, we know that it is producing something aioningly glorious within is?
We should be careful for how we word things if we are praying before others who do not understand where our gratitude stems from and lack the level of maturity in the faith that we have. Perhaps that is why Jesus said pray in secret and in your closet.
I thank God for all things in MY life, good and bad, because I know God knows what He's doing and that despite the evils I may experience, He loves me tremendously and is doing this for my benefit so that I too can inherit all things. I don't thank him for the evils because I enjoy them, want them, think myself morally superior. No. I shun the evil, if it weren't for God, my heart would be enveloped by its despair, for the evil is all too rampant on this earth. If I could, I would erase evil but I relent and surrender to God's wisdom for whom am I? I am dust but He made the heavens and the earth. Now i'm not insinuating that you think these things but I am sharing with you how I think.
I don't pray for the world because Jesus didn't.
I certainly feel for the suffering of this entire creation as I learn of some of the evils it is experiencing but other than that I tend to keep my eyes on Him and focus on dealing with the beast inside. If anything, all this suffering and evil has inspired and given me the desire to never be apart of causing suffering and evil onto others. My knowledge inspires me to do good.
As paul said, the ENTIRE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN TOGETHER UNTIL NOW.
Maybe thanking God for your own trials because yo understand their necessicity is better and if you must include the world, then thank Him for not being a failure, for having a plan that though it may cause pain, will result in the salvation of all creation and the producing of many sons and daughters who bear His mark.
God bless,
Alex
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Did Christ pray in the garden before His arrest "if there can be another way then let this cup pass from me.. But if not, your will be done.." I may have butchered that quote if so forgive me.
But doesn't Christs prayer tell us that there is no other way? If it were possible to achieve His desired result of redeeming the world , without so much evil in this age then it would be done right? But as it is , His plan requires that you and I and everyone else go through what we go through in this life ... I personally don't believe that there is one drop of evil too much than is absolutely necessary in accomplishing His plan. And so, I understand thanking Him for all His perfect plan.
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Thank you all for your responses. Let me make it clear, i don't thank God for everything that is happening because i some how enjoy the evil in this world, i believe it is absolutely necessary for us to go through all of it. I was thanking God for making us and molding us into his sons and daughters.
George thanks for that simple but very effective prayer.
"Maybe thanking God for your own trials because yo understand their necessicity is better and if you must include the world, then thank Him for not being a failure, for having a plan that though it may cause pain, will result in the salvation of all creation and the producing of many sons and daughters who bear His mark." thanks for this Alex and you are 100% correct.
stello
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There is a passage of Scripture where Paul is speaking to brethren about eating food that was used in some sort of sacrificial ritual... certainly not the same thing as you are saying, but I think there is something to learn from it.
1Cor 8:7 But not everyone knows this truth. Some people have been so used to idols that to this day when they eat such food they still think of it as food that belongs to an idol; their conscience is weak, and they feel they are defiled by the food. (GNB)
By your wife's reaction I take it that she has not reached your level of understanding on these things, so what you may feel is appropriate to gives thanks for, she finds upsetting.
1Cor 8:11 In that case, the weak brother for whom the Messiah died is ruined by your knowledge.
v. 12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak consciences, you are sinning against the Messiah.
v. 13 Therefore, if food that I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, in order to keep my brother from stumbling. (ISV)
So I think what is revealed in this passage is we have to be careful with those we are a witness to by our actions or words... I mean we should be sensitive to another discernment and not risk causing them to stumble because they do not understand things as we do.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways. And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
Matthew 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
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When God the Father literally separated to a Son in a belly and Jesus has a God and Father,
Jesus teached us this manner of prayer.
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
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octoberose -
You make a good point about compassion:
It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways. And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
Matthew 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:
John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm
Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.
Kind Regards.
George
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When Jesus said he was not praying for the world it was near his death and he was praying for his disciples. I just don't read that as " I have never prayed for the world and am not starting now" but rather " You and I have spoken of the world many times- but right now I'm praying for my followers" . Is that reading into the text? It may be . But we know Jesus was Sent to be the savior of whole world - it would be pretty odd if he didnt pray for that which he had come to save. Yes, He went through the Jews but He always goes through a smaller group to eventually minister to the larger group.
He also answered prayers and requests from gentiles. If he hadn't that would be a strong stand against ministering to 'the world' but he did . Even dogs deserve crumbs .
How does this relate to thanking God for the suffering in the world or not? A great deal of that suffering is the burden if a fallen world. They truly are like an animal who doesn't understand what is happening to them . But WE should understand- we can thank Him for our trials - we can cry out to Him ! We know he will work all things together for the good of Those who love Him, those Called according to His Purpose. We know there is reserrection after death . Our suffering has a great deal of meaning - and if it doesn 't well maybe our focus has shifted from the Cross to our comfort and cares. W hich is all too easy to do.
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octoberose -
When Jesus said he was not praying for the world it was near his death and he was praying for his disciples. I just don't read that as " I have never prayed for the world and am not starting now" but rather " You and I have spoken of the world many times- but right now I'm praying for my followers" . Is that reading into the text? It may be . But we know Jesus was Sent to be the savior of whole world - it would be pretty odd if he didnt pray for that which he had come to save. Yes, He went through the Jews but He always goes through a smaller group to eventually minister to the larger group.
He also answered prayers and requests from gentiles. If he hadn't that would be a strong stand against ministering to 'the world' but he did . Even dogs deserve crumbs .
How does this relate to thanking God for the suffering in the world or not? A great deal of that suffering is the burden if a fallen world. They truly are like an animal who doesn't understand what is happening to them . But WE should understand- we can thank Him for our trials - we can cry out to Him ! We know he will work all things together for the good of Those who love Him, those Called according to His Purpose. We know there is reserrection after death . Our suffering has a great deal of meaning - and if it doesn 't well maybe our focus has shifted from the Cross to our comfort and cares. W hich is all too easy to do.
I agree that it is the sum of His Word that we should pay very close attention to - and you make very good points about Jesus the Saviour of the World.
We must not only love Our God with all that we have, but we must also love our neighbour (which is everyone else) as ourselves.
Above all Our God is Love, and we are to follow and obey His Commandments to Love each other and our neighbours. Love conquers evil, as evil never conquers evil.
Kind Regards,
George
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Good point Kat, I can see how i was being insensitive. I pray that God will help me to be a good steward of the knowledge He has given me.
George you make a good point which is tied into the above.
I am still growing and i will trust God to guide and direct me. I made a mistake here with my prayer but i believe God is faithful to forgive me. Thank you all for your advice and encouragement.
I am thankful for you all!! 8)
stello
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octoberose -
You make a good point about compassion:
It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways. And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
Matthew 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:
John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm
Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.
Kind Regards.
George
I think you were right the first time George. But I am open if someone can show me where Jesus actually prayed directly for the world.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
These are not nice words about the world. The world's time is coming.
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Dennis -
You make an interesting Point about the 'world':
octoberose -
You make a good point about compassion:
It could be that your wife thought that you lacked compassion, and that was disturbing to her. I am not thankful for all the suffering and all the pain. I am thankful that God will work all things out till He is All in All and I am very aware that His ways are not my ways. And I do pray for the world. I guess that's another discussion.
Matthew 9:36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.
Someone else has mentioned on this Post that Jesus did not pray for the world; and I thought these two Scriptures may help us to try to understand a little better on how we are to pray:
John 17:9: KJV:
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 18:36: KJV:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I think perhaps, these do not make it clear on how and for whom we should pray for - and perhaps, we should all read again Ray's Post on 'praying by God's Rules':
http://bible-truths.com/praying.htm
Unless I have disobeyed Our Heavenly Father, I also have, and still do, pray for those 'of' the world, as I have been burdened to.
Kind Regards.
George
I think you were right the first time George. But I am open if someone can show me where Jesus actually prayed directly for the world.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
These are not nice words about the world. The world's time is coming.
I note that Jesus did not say 'I pray not for those men and women in or of the world' but 'I pray not for the world' - and I was going to mention this before, but decided not to - as it is not something that I think Ray taught on, with respect to 'prayer'.
It appears to me, that the 'world' may not be referring to 'any men and women in or of the world'.
If so, could it be referring to anything that is outside of 'The Kingdom of God' - which is another kingdom, 'The Kingdom of Satan' - and Jesus did confirm that Satan indeed had an undivided kingdom.
What do you think Dennis.
Kind Regards.
George
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During this current age, the time of the first fruits or Pentecost, Jesus is only working with and bringing salvation to His Elect, the few, the little flock.
The Many, the rest of mankind, will be saved in the ages to come, after His return to the Earth.
All will be saved, no one will be lost, each in the appointed time.
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I agree George, and I agree with John.
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Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
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lauriellen -
These Scriptures do indeed confirm that Jesus prayed for men, women and children:
Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
I think there must be a distinction between 'people' and the 'world'; in that, 'people' probably refers to men, women and children, whereas the 'world' probably refers to all that is not 'The Kingdom of God' (most likely 'the kingdom of Satan' or 'Babylon the great').
Kind Regards.
George
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Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Re: your first section, the reason we are asked to pray for all people and rulers is found in 1Tim 2:2, "that we may live a quiet and peaceful life..." The prayers are for the Elect, the few, not for the salvation of the Many, at this time.
The Many are not going to be saved at this time. They will go their own way for now and will die in their sins. Their only hope is for a physical resurrection to judgment when they will be saved, in the future.
Your second section changes nothing about the timing of salvation. God has already made His plans and they will not change.
First the Passover, when the Great Anointed One gave Himself for all.
Second, Pentecost or Feast of First Fruits, which has gone on for about two thousand years, when Jesus works with and saves the Elect few.
Finally, the Feast of Tabernacles or Great Fall Harvest, at the end of the ages, when salvation is given to the Many. Only after the return of the Great King will the rest of humanity and the angels be healed and saved. A time of wonderful blessings on all.
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Does not this scripture encourage us to pray for the world?
1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people;
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
I think these scriptures make a pretty good case that Jesus did pray for people in the 'world':
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Luk_6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you
Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Re: your first section, the reason we are asked to pray for all people and rulers is found in 1Tim 2:2, "that we may live a quiet and peaceful life..." The prayers are for the Elect, the few, not for the salvation of the Many, at this time.
The Many are not going to be saved at this time. They will go their own way for now and will die in their sins. Their only hope is for a physical resurrection to judgment when they will be saved, in the future.
Your second section changes nothing about the timing of salvation. God has already made His plans and they will not change.
First the Passover, when the Great Anointed One gave Himself for all.
Second, Pentecost or Feast of First Fruits, which has gone on for about two thousand years, when Jesus works with and saves the Elect few.
Finally, the Feast of Tabernacles or Great Fall Harvest, at the end of the ages, when salvation is given to the Many. Only after the return of the Great King will the rest of humanity and the angels be healed and saved. A time of wonderful blessings on all.
I had the same thoughts regarding what paul said in timothy. The prayer is so WE can live in peace and not for the world.
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I didn't imply that we are instructed to pray for the salvation of the world at this time nor do the scriptures I referenced. To me, it is telling me that I should be concerned for people, that when I see a need or suffering that I should petition God to send relief or healing or to meet whatever need may be at any given time. It tells me that I should be praying for those in authority i am assuming for their strength and wisdom to do whatever God has purposed them to do, not pray for their salvation. I personally see no need to pray for anyone's salvation as I see that as a done deal, each in his appointed order. Just because God isn't choosing all to be elect in this age doesn't give me an excuse to shut my eyes and heart to the misery I see around me and do nothing to get involved in doing something to bring a little relief, even if it's just lifting up a small prayer for mercy. Jesus prayed for mercy on his murderers, he said to pray for our enemies as I am sure he did, and the disciples said we should, so that's my example to follow. That is just my understanding.
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Hello Everybody
When I go back and see how this thread began, I feel that there has been a departure from the original topic and points are currently being addressed which centre more on “praying for others”.
I have read the posts in which it has been correctly stated that the vast majority of the world’s population will be dealt with and finally be converted at a future time, according to God’s timetable; this is something which we have been blessed to comprehend and for which we can give thanks.
However I have gained an impression that a degree of self-satisfaction along with a lack of empathy has “crept in” and been inadvertently displayed regarding those who have not been called by God.
On this “secondary” topic, I am reminded of Ray’s paper on Does a Sovereign God Ever Change. In this paper, Ray concludes with discussing Ninevah and how God relented. Earlier in this paper, Ray had written about the decision which God had made in bringing about the flood (Genesis 6) and Ray explained how God felt towards humanity. In Ray’s final paper entitled Why Does God Love you, we are given marvellous insight into how God views His creation of mankind, most of whom He will not call until after they are resurrected.
The topic of the “Royal Law” found in James 2:8 has been raised and James quoted directly from Leviticus 19:18. All of Leviticus 19 contains directives which promote “wellness” and harmony in any community and were given by God, through Moses, to the ancient Israelites. Without a “heart in them” (Deut 5:29) we know why they were unable to fully obey; these commands form the basis of success for humanity and depict and reveal the mind of our creator.
Our approach towards others should reflect our understanding of the mind of God who gave Moses those commands, which we see in Leviticus 19. We will do so, as the Spirit of God in us motivates us to treat others. Not only to treat them, but to think about their needs and be responsive.
Would that include praying for anybody, say, who has to undergo a serious surgical operation and that it be successful, if it be God’s will? I don’t think we need ask the question.
There are several places where we can obtain an answer to how we can empathise with others who suffer. 2 Corinthians 1 is a good place to start.
We know that all of mankind needs healing….the word salvation, as Ray taught us, stems from a Greek word meaning “healing”. Physical healing is a forerunner of the spiritual healing, which all of mankind needs, because we were all created in a spiritually weakened state (Romans 8:20 and Romans 7 shows that).
We often remember how Jesus said He always spoke in parables so that the meaning would remain hidden. The “extended” reason is something we might overlook…..
Matt. 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But we read where He went about HEALING people…….physically. Matt.4:23; Matt. 9:35; Luke 9:6.
These people were unconverted, they were “of the world”. Why did He heal them….He must have wanted to…..we know that He will attend to their “real healing” in the future.
If we have the mind of Christ, then we too will desire people to be physically healed….whether they are “called” or not. It will be up to God to decide, but we can desire and ask on their behalf.
We read of one account where a woman approached Jesus asking for healing of her daughter. Matthew 15:22. We see the end result in verse 28. How did Jesus know that woman had faith? He recognised that her faith came as a gift from God.
People, in any generation, who are not called, such as this woman from Caanan can possess faith to varying degrees. A short while later we read where, by contrast, Jesus perceived His own disciples had “little faith”. Matthew 16:8
That is another area where we can give thanks - for the faith which God gives to us. Colin
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Jesus healed tens of thousands of people. Why? Because He could. He had the Power of the Spirit. Also, Jesus was the Messiah, the Anointed One, He healed because the Scriptures said He would. He had to fulfill God's will.
Jesus said He was not of this world.
Jesus said He did not pray for the world.
Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of war until the end.
Jesus said the poor would always be with us.
And yet, there are those who disregard Jesus' words and tout the propaganda of the Great, False, Church which teaches the false gospel of salvation by works and how we must love, love, love. Deceptive words which deceive the Many. The Elect will not be deceived by false religion.
Jesus told us we must pray and do good deeds in private. But the false church always prays and tell us about their good works in public.
As always, those who follow Jesus must decide do they follow what Jesus says or the subtle, deceptive teachings of the Church ruled by Satan, the one who appears as an angel of light.
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Thank you for your post Colin.
John, in what scripture am I told that there is something I am Forbidden to Pray For least I be deceived? How does that relate to "in everything, with prayers and supplications make your requests be known to God..." Yes, for our peace as the scripture says. I'm not asking God to 'save' those He has no intention of 'saving' until the resurrection and judgement. I am usually asking for mercy. To comfort those in terrible grief and death. If that offends you it just is going to have to offend you.
I know at times I am guilty of not really paying attention to a post and then commenting later on and missed out on what was said, but you all really must not agree when I wrote that the prayer right before the crucifixion and leaving his disciples where Jesus says He was not praying for the world is Not indicative of Him Never praying for the world. It is not. We cannot extrapolate that . So I'm a little upset because now I and those like me are part of the propaganda of the Great False Church. Are you kidding me?
John, you're actually implying that a mother is not to pray for her child. Or her husband. At all . Because they are of the world.
I direct you to Isaiah 49-" Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you." Or how about Romans 10:1- Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." And as of Paul's writing they were not saved and he was Praying for them.
And now I have nothing else useful to say.
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Hi John
Your quote: “Jesus healed tens of thousands of people. Why? Because He could. He had the Power of the Spirit. Also, Jesus was the Messiah, the Anointed One, He healed because the Scriptures said He would. He had to fulfil God's will.” [end of quote]
Implying that Jesus [only] healed people because He was “compelled to” or simply could do so places an unwarranted slant on scriptures and diminishes the love He has towards the world for whose sins He suffered an agonizing death. He displayed a degree of love which we all struggle to fully comprehend.
Quote from JFK : Jesus said He was not of this world. [end of quote]
Yes, Jesus did say He was not of the world….He also said His elect, in like manner, are not “of the world”. Let’s ask “What does that mean?”
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
I understand that to mean while we are living “In the world”, we renounce the world’s values.
Quote from JFK: Jesus said He did not pray for the world. [end of quote]
There are different Greek words translated “pray for” and we need to be aware that they have different meanings. Ray cautioned us to be careful to know about word differences.
John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John17:9 I pray for them: I pray [Greek erotao = ask a person to DO something, not FOR something] not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 17:20 Neither pray [erotao] I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
What was Jesus praying that His Father would DO? It covers not only those who would become believers then and down through the ages, but ALSO THE WORLD…… So, yes…..Jesus DID pray for the world. And we are told that twice! Firstly, that the world would believe and secondly that the world would KNOW….which implies something deeper.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Quote from JFK: Jesus said the poor would always be with us. [end of quote]
Mark 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will, ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
Yes, Jesus said we would always have “the poor” and went on to say, whenever we want, we may do something good for them. That is correlated in Matthew 25. And Titus 1:16 ; Titus 3:1,2 reinforce that.
Quote from JFK : And yet, there are those who disregard Jesus' words and tout the propaganda of the Great, False, Church which teaches the false gospel of salvation by works and how we must love, love, love. Deceptive words which deceive the Many. The Elect will not be deceived by false religion. [end of quote]
As a contrast, what is “pure religion”? And I don’t think we must do it “under cover” so nobody will ever notice.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Quote from JFK: Jesus told us we must pray and do good deeds in private. [end of quote]
Praying out loudly on street corners is not the way to go. But if I visit somebody in hospital, do I have to go after dark, in disguise?
Luke 11:33 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
No - we are not to chase the glare of publicity, however our good deeds will later become a means of giving glory to God when people remember how we faithfully lived as lights and they come to realise it was God working through us.
When Jesus healed people (which was doing good deeds) He did it in full view, not in a “back room”, or “secretly” at night time. The apostles often followed a similar pattern.
Act 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Colin
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Thank you for your post Colin.
John, in what scripture am I told that there is something I am Forbidden to Pray For least I be deceived? How does that relate to "in everything, with prayers and supplications make your requests be known to God..." Yes, for our peace as the scripture says. I'm not asking God to 'save' those He has no intention of 'saving' until the resurrection and judgement. I am usually asking for mercy. To comfort those in terrible grief and death. If that offends you it just is going to have to offend you.
I know at times I am guilty of not really paying attention to a post and then commenting later on and missed out on what was said, but you all really must not agree when I wrote that the prayer right before the crucifixion and leaving his disciples where Jesus says He was not praying for the world is Not indicative of Him Never praying for the world. It is not. We cannot extrapolate that . So I'm a little upset because now I and those like me are part of the propaganda of the Great False Church. Are you kidding me?
John, you're actually implying that a mother is not to pray for her child. Or her husband. At all . Because they are of the world.
I direct you to Isaiah 49-" Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you." Or how about Romans 10:1- Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved." And as of Paul's writing they were not saved and he was Praying for them.
And now I have nothing else useful to say.
I am sorry if I offended you Octoberose. You totally missed my point. Further explanation would just make things worse. We are all just toads beneath the plow (stolen from Churchill who stole it from Rudyard Kipling).
Again, sorry if I caused you offense.
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Octoberrose, I've found a lot of value in what you shared.
Here's a bit more that may counter some of the other sweeping statements in the thread:
Rom 10:1 Brethren, the pleasure indeed of my heart, and my supplication that is to God for Israel, is--for salvation;
Rom 10:2 for I bear them testimony that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge,
Rom 10:3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.
Now, I know that the Jews were not "the world", but neither were they believers according to knowledge.
I'm well aware that we must pray within the will of God. I'm also aware that God wills that all men be saved. And I'm instructed not to judge things before their time. There's not a one of us who can't say that at one point we didn't believe, and then we did. Jesus knew, even when we didn't. We don't know, so why not ask on behalf of others?
One other small point. That there are only a few instances where any figure of the New Testament prayed for someone in "the world" and most where prayer is for oneself or our brothers and sisters shouldn't be surprising. This book isn't written for the unbelieving world. All Scripture is inspired and profitable for the man and woman of God in this ever-expanding family.
Such instances as there are should also counter over-generalization.
Lastly, prayer is more than the words said at prayer-time. It's an on-going conversation between the Heart of God and our own. It's axiomatic that God answers no prayer that isn't prayed. Personally, I need MORE of it, not less.
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Where does forgiveness begin or end?
My mother taught me a simple prayer when I was a small child;
Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take.
God bless mother, and father, sisters, and brothers, and everyone else in the whole wide world.
Amen.
On some occasions during my childhood, I didn't want to say the bless everyone in the whole wide world part. Because I had some bad feelings for some other kid in the neighborhood that I was mad at, that day or week.
But since it was a prayer we said aloud, I had to grit my teeth and say it anyway.
Joel
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It is good not to pray to bless everyone in the whole wide world.
The reason? Because God is not currently blessing everyone in the whole wide world. To do otherwise is to ask God to go against His will, which anyone who worships the True God should not do.
God will eventually bless everyone in the whole wide world, after He causes them to repent from their sins and who they are.
But not now. God is not of this world, nor does He pray for the world. Of course, the great false church teaches their followers otherwise. The church led by the wicked one, who is prince of the power of the air and the god of this world, the leader of the Many.
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Awe Gee John, and you were doing so good . We'll just agree to disagree. Ribbit. ;)
Colin, wow, I just have never been the one to dig deep into Greek- but it makes all the difference. Were you on e sword, or do you have a Greek NT at home?
I like your mom's prayer Joel. It seems to have touched the conscience of a small boy. I'd say it made a difference to you.
Dave, I thought about Paul's prayer for the Jews. I don't always know how to categorize them. I keep seeing them on that gulf with the 'rich man' and being 'tortured' because they ignored Jesus and the prophets. That's pretty worldy I think . Surely they are some of the lost Jesus came to save.
Don't you all imagine that Jesus spoke to his Father about everything in his day? The woman at the well, the centurion with great faith, everything and everyone that came his way. Now that's a picture isn't it? To have the son of God speaking to God about you- and all you are is a Samaritan woman with a shady past and present. Wow. Anyway, that's prayer for all- the Jews, the lost, the sinners, the Gentiles. Everything.
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From Ray's paper on Prayer:
SEVEN SCRIPTURAL PRINCIPLES GOVERNING PRAYER
[1] "And this is the confidence that we have in Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, [everything in heaven and earth must be in accord with God’s will {His purpose and plan, Eph. 1:11} or it won’t happen] He hears us: And if we know that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of Him" (I John 5:14-15).
[2] "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [I cannot stress enough the importance of a clean and clear conscience] then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we…
[3] keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight…
[4] And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the Name [and everything that that Name stands for and represents] of His Son Jesus Christ…
[5] And love one another, as He gave us commandment" (I John 3:21-23).
[6] "Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts [so don’t think that it’s okay to pray for your Mother to hit the Lotto Jackpot either, as I believe that God can see through such feigned benevolence]" (James 4:3).
[7] "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing [Having faith and trust, not just hoping and wishing. True faith can be based only on God’s Word—see James 1:6-7] ye shall receive" (Matt. 21:22).
All seven of these principles are in keeping with "Thy will be done."...
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Prayer must be in accord with what "must be." Here are a couple of Versions that bring this out clearly:
"And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us , we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable" (Rom. 8:26, Young’s Literal Translation.)
The word "behoove" means "necessary." Not what should or might be, but what is absolutely "necessary." And "necessary" is the first definition of this word in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.
"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with what must be, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings" (Rom. 8:26, Concordant Literal New Testament.)
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This Scripture will blow you away if you have never before seen it properly translated. Here it is first in the King James Version:
"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:24-26).
Paul makes a connection between "hope" and "prayer." Hope is something we expect, but do not as yet experience. All of Christendom has this subject wrong when they claim that they are already in this life "saved" in the past tense. Paul tells us that we are "saved by hope," but if it is already a reality, then there is no need to still be hoping for it. He then states that, "Likewise…" (in the same way and manner) when it comes to praying, "we know NOT what we should pray for." Just as we do not yet SEE what it is that we "hope for" (we do not yet possess it,) likewise we do not see what we are to "pray for" based on another one of God’s rules, not based on our ignorance (or ‘as we ought’.) This much we can learn from the King James.
My question. Is Paul disobeying this verse (which he wrote) by praying for the salvation of the Jews? Or is it because he knows the will of God is to save the Jews that he can pray without "infirmity"? Or maybe it's something else I'm not considering?
I'll readily admit to a world of things I "know not" what "must be". I need the Spirit to help in my infirmity, including if not especially this ignorance. The only way I have any inkling of what must be in this humongous list--on this day--is when I've seen what "must have been" in a new "day". But there are other things I do know what "must be". I don't know WHEN they "must be". I don't really know HOW they "must be" but unless my hope in His promise is completely in vain, I know that eventually they "must be".
If he has predestined it, it "must be". Can I, with the measure of faith given to me, pray for what must be and be submissive to God concerning the aspects of what "must be" that I can't see, like when and how?
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There is a lot that could be said about hoping against hope, Romans 4:18, and knowing that God can have mercy upon anyone he chooses.
David knew that God's judgements are often very merciful, I think that is what he was hoping for as he prayed for his son that eventually died. 2 Samuel 12:22
Paul knew what God had in store for the Jews, but he must have also hoped that he could have a part in saving the few that were being saved at that time, as God had seen fit to do with him.
Joel
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One thing about this matter of Paul praying for the Jews.
Paul understood that physical Jews are not any more important than other people.
The true Jews are those of the Spirit.
The Seed of Abraham was not Isaac but Jesus. It was in Jesus that the world was to be blessed. If you are a spiritual descendant of Jesus, then you are a spiritual Jew, one of the Elect. Read the Book of Galatians.
The physical is unimportant. The few spiritual Jews are whom Jesus is concerned with at this time, in this age. In the future, it is the Elect who will assist Jesus in the salvation of the Many.
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Hello everybody
Quote from John from Kentucky Re: Giving thanks for all things? « Reply #33 on: 26th August 2016 at 04:27:35 PM » One thing about this matter of Paul praying for the Jews. Paul understood that physical Jews are not any more important than other people. [end of quote]
Let us not be too dismissive when it comes to the Jews. While they may not be, as you say, “any more important than other people”, nevertheless, Paul does not disparage them as you seem to be doing.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
In his same epistle, the way I understand it, Paul clearly shows that the Jews are in his thoughts and that through their “casting away”, they will play a pivotal role in regard to the rest of the world. He did not disdain them, as far as I can see.. How do you read it, John?
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Quote from JFK: The true Jews are those of the Spirit. The Seed of Abraham was not Isaac but Jesus. It was in Jesus that the world was to be blessed. If you are a spiritual descendant of Jesus, then you are a spiritual Jew, one of the Elect. Read the Book of Galatians.
The physical is unimportant. The few spiritual Jews are whom Jesus is concerned with at this time, in this age. In the future, it is the Elect who will assist Jesus in the salvation of the many. [end of quote]
The apostle Paul had more to say about those who did not believe (in Romans 3) and finished by asking, “Are we any better” in verse 9, answering with a resounding “NO”.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Describing a future time, Isaiah writes of the outcome of God’s dealings with specified peoples; we read that they all will be “healed” and “blessed”…..physical Israel no exception.
Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be entreated of them, and shall heal them.
Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
I readily agree with you John that “circumcision of the heart” defines a “spiritual Jew”.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
There is a lot more to this subject than meets the eye, however. It takes some “digging” to unearth more important truths, as Ray encouraged us to do. Being encouraged to read Galatians, I did just that (again), focusing on…...
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Where is this quoted from? It is from Genesis 21.
Gen 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Gen 21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed [ Hebrew zer`a] be called.
That is an unusual word….zara`. It seems to be the reason why Paul went on to point out the differences between singular and plural, because this Hebrew word can be either, like our English word “sheep”. We can say “one sheep” or “two (or more) sheep”. Same goes for “fish”.
The Companion Bible (Bullinger) provides some clarifying information for Gen.21:12 viz: Here zer`a is in the singular sense, because of the word “Isaac” and because of the singular verb “it shall be called’. Zer`a is a “collective noun”, like the English word “sheep” and the context must determine whether it is singular or plural. It is to this verse that Galatians 3:16 refers; not to Genesis 12:7 where it is indefinite; nor Genesis 17:7 where the verb and pronouns show it is plural.
Gen 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [Ishmael] is thy seed [same Hebrew word zara`].
This is quoted in Hebrews 11.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: ( Quoted from Genesis 21:12)
There are other places where this Hebrew word zera` is to be understood in the plural…..viz
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
Gen 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed [ collective Hebrew noun zer`a ] after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
This is plain from seeing the pronoun “their”, which indicates the “seed” is more than “one”.
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Thanks to your post, John, after doing some “digging”, I am now better informed and hope I have assisted readers of the forum.
Returning to the original topic of “giving thanks”, I had the following thoughts, that there is a way which is NOT recommended to give thanks. It is presented as a parable.
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Being a parable, as Ray often told us, we are to “look behind” the literal and see what it is telling us on a spiritual level. Essentially, it has to do with our inner thoughts and level of humility. We, as “potential elect” are not to “look down on others” whom we might consider of lesser importance in God’s overall plan. Even unbelieving Jews, who are all to participate one way or another in God’s plan for the salvation of every human being. Colin
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Very interesting exposition of Ray's thoughts Colin and helpful.
Thanks for sharing.
indiana bob
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All of the Old Covenant individuals are relatively unimportant, from John the Baptist on back. The least in the Kingdom of God is greater than all of the Old Covenant personages.
None of them will be in the first Resurrection. As the Scriptures say, "the first shall be last and the last shall be first.
The sole purpose of the Old Covenant individuals was to be examples for the Elect, who will be in the first Resurrection, the better Resurrection.
Jesus' words are Spirit and they are Life. Paul in Galatians teaches that Jesus is the Seed who will bring the blessings on the Gentiles, not Isaac. It is the spiritual descendants of Jesus, His companions the Elect, who are the true Israel of God.
Jesus is all important. Grace and Truth came by Jesus. All praise and worship and glory goes to the Great God.
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Thank you all for your responses. Let me make it clear, i don't thank God for everything that is happening because i some how enjoy the evil in this world, i believe it is absolutely necessary for us to go through all of it. I was thanking God for making us and molding us into his sons and daughters.
Exactly! Hardly a day goes by that in my prayers when I consider the evil and the state of the world I give God thanks for it. If there was a better way to do things then God would do it that better way. Apparently there is no better way and we have to acquiesce both to his wisdom and will in these matters. The scriptures tell us that he takes no pleasure in these things but nevertheless they are necessary or he wouldn't do it that way.
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I agree,
I note that the power that will be in our hands when we become full children of God is amazing and intimidating. We won't have exclusive power, it will be appointed and delegated and subject to rescission, but it will be a serving power beyond what we have ever considered in our human minds. That I believe is why this time of preparation is so vital to the end result and one which God must exact with great detailed preparation and care.
Indiana-bob
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This is confusing and personal to me because I don't know how to 'give thanks in all things'. For example, how do I 'thank Him' for taking away Ray when he had so much more to teach us? The pain he experienced was part of the death process He gave him. So I don't really buy into thanking Him for removing Ray from this pain. Maybe if all of you can tell me how you personally thank God for Ray's death and his exit from your life I will develop a better understanding and learn how to be thankful for it too. Thanks!
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Our greatest example in all things is Christ Himself. So, my question is, when did Jesus Thank God for the death he was about to suffer? He submitted himself to his Father for sure- but did He say anything remotely like, " thank you Father for choosing me to bear the sin of the world so I can suffer and die a hideous death. Gee, I'm just so blessed." Nope , i just dont recall that. The only thing He wanted less than dying on that cross was to not fulfill the will of God and leave us all without a sacrificial lamb. At least that is how I see it.
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This is confusing and personal to me because I don't know how to 'give thanks in all things'. For example, how do I 'thank Him' for taking away Ray when he had so much more to teach us? The pain he experienced was part of the death process He gave him. So I don't really buy into thanking Him for removing Ray from this pain. Maybe if all of you can tell me how you personally thank God for Ray's death and his exit from your life I will develop a better understanding and learn how to be thankful for it too. Thanks!
Death is not a big deal. Jesus taught us death is sleep. But who believes Jesus? A basic teaching of the Scriptures is the resurrection of the dead. As easy as we wake from sleep, just as easily God wakes us from death.
Also, Ray did not have more to teach us. No human is important. God is all important. God teaches us and gives us life. All thanks and glory goes to the Great God.
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Our greatest example in all things is Christ Himself. So, my question is, when did Jesus Thank God for the death he was about to suffer? He submitted himself to his Father for sure- but did He say anything remotely like, " thank you Father for choosing me to bear the sin of the world so I can suffer and die a hideous death. Gee, I'm just so blessed." Nope , i just dont recall that. The only thing He wanted less than dying on that cross was to not fulfill the will of God and leave us all without a sacrificial lamb. At least that is how I see it.
Matt 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
V. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
V. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many
This life in the flesh is a temporary thing, not something we should cling to beyond the purpose God has destined us all for. Jesus was here to fulfill a purpose, which He did... and Ray obviously fulfilled his purpose as well, God would not have taken him before his time was up. We all will live the exact length of time God has designated for us, not one day more or less.
Our hope is beyond this physical existence, we are looking to the kingdom, the spirit life in and with Christ. Like Paul was saying we remain here and do what we need to do, but our real desire is to be with Christ in His kingdom.
2Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
V. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
V. 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
V. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
V. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
V. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
Mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This is confusing and personal to me because I don't know how to 'give thanks in all things'. For example, how do I 'thank Him' for taking away Ray when he had so much more to teach us? The pain he experienced was part of the death process He gave him. So I don't really buy into thanking Him for removing Ray from this pain. Maybe if all of you can tell me how you personally thank God for Ray's death and his exit from your life I will develop a better understanding and learn how to be thankful for it too. Thanks!
Okay it is probably me that is messed up and emotional over events like this. This is a major struggle for me and maybe for others too. Maybe nobody wants to share their handling of Ray's death and being thankful for it. Maybe none of you are thankful for it, yet putting on a good front. Maybe I don't deserve a direct answer either as from time to time, you have been here for a long time know, I can be at times a bit of a dic. I can accept that, but I believe if I can gain understanding and thankfulness for Ray's death it will greatly help me in dealing with other life crises events. If you wish to help me out then thanks and if not well I understand. I won't push anymore!
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Fester, I can't pinpoint a time when I "gave thanks" for Ray's death during the event itself and the aftermath. But then, I don't say "thank you" that much more than I say "Why did you let that happen?"--which isn't much anymore. I'd rather BE thankful, than say THANKS. BEING thankful takes more time. Maybe that's where you are.
I AM thankful that Ray isn't suffering. And I AM thankful that I can believe what Kat shared. Hasn't always been that way.
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Well Fester,
Ray was just a man. We don't follow any man. We have one we follow, the Lord Jesus Christ. Ray's passing was emotional for everyone when it happened. But we are not without hope like those who don't believe. As paul said,
1 Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
And we are certainly not to remain where we are, becoming stagnant in our walk, but continue forward ever striving for the Lord.
Hebrews 5:11-14
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I am certainly thankful for ray's life and there is nothing left unsaid by ray that God did not plan should be said. As Kat said, our days are appointed, the bounderies of our habitation are established and they cannot be moved nor can we go beyond them. God's plan is perfect.
While we may not be thankful for the evil we experience, we are certainly thankful that God afflicts us in righteousness and that His wounds are faithful. We are thankful that we are partakers of the chastisement that we should not be ******** but heir's. We are thankful that the evil we experience is producing in us an ever increasing weight of aionion glory. We are thankful that He is doing this all for our benefit that all humanity may become as Him.
I'm a bit baffled that you would think we are putting on a front. Do you think we fellowship here to decieve one another? What purpose would this serve? All things said I beleive are said with sincerity though we certainly can say things which are sincerely wrong at times but nevertheless in sincerety and this is all part of the learning and growing process.
Indeed, Iron sharpens Iron, and we are daily exhorting and encouraging one another, Lord willing.
God bless,
Alex
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I give thanks for all things. Everything comes from Him and He is love and love is Good. Yes a mystery....to us...He does not do anything without His Wisdom. But that is just me trying to understand. :)
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James 1: 13 - 17 " Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God". Job 1: 6-12 " Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came in among them".
Some of the reasons we see so much evil in the world.
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This is confusing and personal to me because I don't know how to 'give thanks in all things'. For example, how do I 'thank Him' for taking away Ray when he had so much more to teach us? The pain he experienced was part of the death process He gave him. So I don't really buy into thanking Him for removing Ray from this pain. Maybe if all of you can tell me how you personally thank God for Ray's death and his exit from your life I will develop a better understanding and learn how to be thankful for it too. Thanks!
Someone help me please. Where are we commanded to 'give thanks for/in all things'?
If you were at the hospital the last week of Ray's life you would have prayed for him to die.
When he did die it was anticlimactic for me and his wife. We were both very grateful it was over.
We are not allowed to shorten someone's life in the US. Even if they are in great pain and there is zero chance of them surviving.
The doctor told us Ray was on the absolute maximum amount of drugs to keep him unconscious. He said if he gave him even a little more of the drug it would stop his heart and he was not allowed to do that.
But what they do is withhold water and they die of thirst. It took Ray about four days to die of thirst once they decided to withhold water.
One time a nurse came in to change Ray's position to keep him from getting bed sores. When she moved him just a little he cried out in pain. I told her bed sores were the least of his problems and to just let him be, which she did. Maxed out on all those drugs and he still felt intense pain when moved just a little.
I give Manulia a lot of credit. She stayed with him all that time. She only got to go home and get cleaned up, eat, etc. when I came to relieved her (but a few others also visited). I was at the hospital no more than four hours a time and even that was hard to take.
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Okay it is probably me that is messed up and emotional over events like this. This is a major struggle for me and maybe for others too. Maybe nobody wants to share their handling of Ray's death and being thankful for it. Maybe none of you are thankful for it, yet putting on a good front. Maybe I don't deserve a direct answer either as from time to time, you have been here for a long time know, I can be at times a bit of a dic. I can accept that, but I believe if I can gain understanding and thankfulness for Ray's death it will greatly help me in dealing with other life crises events. If you wish to help me out then thanks and if not well I understand. I won't push anymore!
Well I was so thankful to know Ray and I gained so much from all he shared with us. I was very sad when he died, it's so hard to lose somebody you know and care a great deal about. I struggled with that idea he would not be teaching us anymore... but I eventually came to realize that God had determined that he had served his purpose and it was Ray's time to rest till resurrection, who am I to say that was not right and good?
So I was forced to step up my own studies, to apply the many study tools I had learned from Ray and proceed forward. Now I have come to realized I should not continually rely on a man for all I need to know about truth... at some point I have to turn to Christ alone to teach me and also believe He will. And I can tell you the truth, I have never felt closer to Christ than since I have sought His guidance and understanding of the Scripture on my own.
Now would I say I'm 'thankful' that Ray died, well more like I'm thankful for what he accomplish while he lived and what I gained from him, that all ended in God's perfect timing. So since Ray has died the relationship I have developed with Christ has grown so much, so what can I say, I'm incredibly thankful for that... I sure appreciated Ray, now I'm even more grateful for what I have come to have with Christ.
Mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Fester -
This is confusing and personal to me because I don't know how to 'give thanks in all things'. For example, how do I 'thank Him' for taking away Ray when he had so much more to teach us? The pain he experienced was part of the death process He gave him. So I don't really buy into thanking Him for removing Ray from this pain. Maybe if all of you can tell me how you personally thank God for Ray's death and his exit from your life I will develop a better understanding and learn how to be thankful for it too. Thanks!
Okay it is probably me that is messed up and emotional over events like this. This is a major struggle for me and maybe for others too. Maybe nobody wants to share their handling of Ray's death and being thankful for it. Maybe none of you are thankful for it, yet putting on a good front. Maybe I don't deserve a direct answer either as from time to time, you have been here for a long time know, I can be at times a bit of a dic. I can accept that, but I believe if I can gain understanding and thankfulness for Ray's death it will greatly help me in dealing with other life crises events. If you wish to help me out then thanks and if not well I understand. I won't push anymore!
You are obviously looking for answers.
To me, we should all be grateful for life, and be grateful to the Giver of Life (not just ours, but every life, including mankind).
We are truly Blessed on this Forum, as those that were and are inspired to share The Truths of God do indeed help us all.
Ray was obviously in love with the Giver of Life, and was like a bulldog in his search for more and more of the Giver of Life's Truths.
We should be grateful for the revelations granted to Ray by the Giver of Life; and to Ray himself who dedicated his life to bring us these Scriptural Truths - and to the others who support this site and Forum; including all those who supported Ray (his wife Manuella (who daily suffers tremendous pain) and Dennis, and all the others).
We know that all of us are in His Hands, and that our Lives are as He Wills, including what we should suffer, who we should touch, who we should help, how long we live, and the exact moment that we are to die.
I hope this helps you a little in your quest for His answers to you.
Kind Regards.
George
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Fester, I am not the least bit grateful that Ray died. I have wondered often why God chose to take one who so clearly had a heart and mind to hear Him. However, I accept his death and I accept that God gives and He takes away.
Interstingly, I think Ray was 70 years old. Here's what Psalms 90 says about that,
" The years of our life are seventy, or even by reason of strength eighty; yet their span is but toil and trouble; they are soon gone, and we fly away. "
I did want to ask about Rays last days, but felt that it would be inconsiderate . Thank you Dennis for sharing . I hate he had to suffer so~ but as soon as he wakes up there will be a big big smile on his face. And we can meet in person and all the sorrow will be a shadow of itself . Its going to be great. :)
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After Ray's death, I came to realize that GOD is indeed moving this forum and its members, GOD is now working directly with you, me and all on this forum. He gave us Ray, and now He is giving us HIMSELF. Coming out of Babylon is the hardest thing to do, leaving all the carnality behind. GOD gave us Ray to guide us away from the carnality into the spiritual. I thank GOD everyday for blessing me with this website, its members and all off Ray's teachings. I always say, GOD does things in mysterious ways. I believe that some of the forum members are here for exactly the same purpose (guidance into the truth). As Kat says " So I was forced to step up my own studies, to apply the many study tools I had learned from Ray and proceed forward." Now that we know the truth, we should seek and study even harder. This is what is required of ALL OF US. I pray GOD will open your eyes and ears and that you too will understand that it is not of man but of GOD.
Love always
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Kat, the Lord always uses you to touch my heart. Your last comments to Fester is so true.
I never had the pleasure of meeting Ray and I thought I would get a chance to make a conference before he died, but it wasn't meant to be. I was sad at hearing of his death. But as you said the Lord left us so much study material and tools thru Ray. Now the Lord to develop in us good study habits as we seek Him with our whole heart I pray.
I pray for the forum and the people God guides this way. The Forum and the Moderators are such a blessing to my life.
I don't comment often, but some subjects I am compelled to say something.
God's love and Grace to all.