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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hebrewroots98 on February 25, 2007, 11:58:27 PM
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I have a question for you all... What would you tell a woman who says the she has seen (on 2 dif occassions in her life) where demon(s) manifested themselves physically through a person whom was in her home and that the person was speaking in a different and very scarey voice not of his own and that they had 'sucked the energy out of her when they hugged her". (I am not really sure as to what I believe on this subject and I was not sure what to say to her, so I simply told her that this is a subject that I would have to study into since I am not sound in my beliefs in this area yet. I could sure use some input and wisdom here. Thanks a bunch. I love you guys so much! ;D
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I believe it may happen the reason is I have experienced this to a degree.
I later thought it was a deep depression she had.
I really think it is possible demons can pick a vulnerable person or someone that practices astrology or witchcraft.
I hope others has an opinion on this.
I will try and find scriptures if there is any pertaining to this.
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I know that Legion was the name of the demonpossessed man that had the many demons that were inside of him and they had come out of him (and with a shreik) at the command of Yeshua, these demons then overtook a pigs' body and that pig ran off of a cliff and drowned into the water below. ???
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Jesus was casting out demons through out the new testament.
Here is something pertaining to demons...
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation." Matthew 12:43-45 NKJV
Kinda scary isn't it?
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Susan,
I would believe that demons can physically manifest themselves. If things happened in the bible then surely they still can and are happening here in the world today.
Good discussion.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Taken from LOF Part 9 - THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL
Sinful Capernaum was never exalted to GOD’S heaven, but to their OWN HEAVEN, the heaven of their own minds. Their city never left the surface of the earth, but IN THEIR MINDS they thought they had reached "heaven." Now then, with this in mind, let us move ahead two verses and see how all these Scriptures tie in and harmonize together. Verse 17:
"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."
Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).
God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.
Email responses on the subject:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html
Demons are spiritual, not physical:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Rom 1:20 KJV)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places [epouranios]. (Eph 6:12 KJV)
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1Sa 16:14 KJV)
Notice that the demons (devils) always manifest themselves in something which has a mind. They do not physically manifest themselves out of nothing like in horror movies. Even Jesus was accused of having demons. Having demons means having evil and bad spirits (working evil/madness):
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. (Joh 8:48-49 KJV)
Legion (meaning many) was the name of the spirits in that man, not the name of the man:
And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep. (Luk 8:30-31 KJV)
Susan, the woman you are referring to might have had a crazy/mentally ill person in her house. I don't believe her at all when she says that the DEMONS "sucked the energy out of her when they hugged her". Maybe the person who was with her was leaning on her and she felt tired because of that?
Hope this helps you, I wouldn't worry too much about this Susan.
[epouranios]
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.
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Thank you all for responding.
I know that heaven and hell are places in humans minds and that there is no physical heaven and hell and that we all must be careful to not exalt things in our minds to think that we have reached heavenly places, and that God as well as satan dwells in the spirit realm and not in the physical realm, since satan is spirit and not physical. I know that we have been given HIS power and authority to dispel the any lies that satan uses through people's minds; and I have no problem with knowing that demons dol not just magically appear out of this air as in the movies; and it iis true that humans fights are not physical, rather spiritual.
But, what I cannot understand is when someone tells me with all sincerity that she heard an audible voice come out of a demon posessed man and it was not the normal voice of the man and that the voice was very scarey to hear; and then that he was showing an evil countenance on his physical face that was not the guys' normal expressions, rather an evil look: as well as when the MAN hugged her to say goodbye, she felt all of her physical energy drain from her body and she literally got physically ill (vomited) afterward??? How do you explain this?
Also, how do we explain the physical event of the Legons of spiritual demons in the posessed pigs? And what is the purpose for taking 7 stonger demons to 'fill the house' of the person the one demon had left prior to the 7 coming in? To make a stronghold for the person to remain in bondage?
I thought that I understood this earlier, and I may have just forgotten, but I will go and resfresh my memory and read the LOF Part 9 again, but I won't be able to till later on...
Thanks for your patience everyone. I don't like getting rusty like this ::)
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Hi Susan,
I don't know much about this, but I found this email of Ray's to be interesting.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -----------------
Hi Ray,
>
> Really quick question. Can a Christian "or anyone" become possessed by
> demons? Do the rites of exorcism work? What might be the purpose of
> exorcism? I believe I have felt the influence of demons in my life at
> certain times. I think every person does whether they are aware of it
> or not.
>
> What is your interpretation of the truth here?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chris
Dear Chris:
There have been probably 5 to 10 thousand volumes written on demons and exorcism. It is not likely that I can explain this subject in five to ten sentences.
There is "possession" and there is "obsession." Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.
Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural. Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people. I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized. With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.
The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12). It is part of our Christian walk of faith.
The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist." Many Christians worship these spirits. I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:
"Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat for the reference. So, basically, there are demons whom physically manifest themselves in a person, and so the lady that was sharing this with me was correct in her account of her experience; the man WAS showing a physical manifestation of demons that were in him, and only by her using the power of the name of Jesus did this demon stop manifesting itself through the guy. Now this does make sense. Ih'm sure that as Rays states that it is rare to actually OBSERVE the physical manifestations of demons in people, but it does happen. as Rays stated...THIS IS PART OF OUR WALK OF FAITH! (Personally, I have never in all of my years as a believer, bought into that Charasmatic/emotional part of worshipping our LORD, as many others have. I guess I was always skeptical of this deliverance type of worship since it had become so common for them to do each week. To me it was as if they were trying to get attention/approval from men when they would try to deliver one. I had a guy tell me one time that he 'LOVED TO SIT BACK AND LAUGH AT HESE DEMONS THAT WERE IN THE PEOPLE THAT HE WOULD HAVE A PART IN 'DELIVERANCE". ??? ::))
Thank you so much, now I can share this with her SINCE this is the biggest obstacle that SHE has had with any of my beliefs/teachings from the Word. Now maybe she will be one step closer to having her eyes and ears opened to accept these BT/LOF truths.... :D That would be very nice indeed.
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I have a question for you all... What would you tell a woman who says the she has seen (on 2 dif occassions in her life) where demon(s) manifested themselves physically through a person whom was in her home and that the person was speaking in a different and very scarey voice not of his own and that they had 'sucked the energy out of her when they hugged her". (I am not really sure as to what I believe on this subject and I was not sure what to say to her, so I simply told her that this is a subject that I would have to study into since I am not sound in my beliefs in this area yet. I could sure use some input and wisdom here. Thanks a bunch. I love you guys so much! ;D
I would tell her to stay away from those people and certainly dont invite them back into her home. their are some real wierd people out there.
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Have you all ever heard of the prescense of "ghosts and such" at Gettysburg?? When we visited I had chill bumps all over me and I was saying Jesus' name just to comfort myself. I may have just bought into what they tell you. But so many people saying the same thing ove the years?? It was like hallowed ground and I wanted to take off my shoes.
Being in the charismatic/faith movement for 30 years, of course, I knew people that REALLY REALLY believed they cast out demons, and they all had their stories. I nevr experienced anything, even at sessions where that was the whole purpose.
I have witnessed people calling out things about people (words of knowledge) that they "couldn't" have known.
I don't know now it all seems so unimportant--that kind of thing I mean.
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Dear Rick,
I have been talking with this woman and she was telling me of a situation that had happened in her past -several years ago (as well as about a year ago), she said she has only witnessed this type of 'posession situation' twice now in her 31 years of life, and that each time it scared her terribly, but that she trhinks that God has shown her these people in order to know how to help them. She definately won't invite the recent person in her home, but she is just trying to figure out if God is using her in order to help these people.
Gena,
Yes, I have watched those unsolved mysteries about Gettysburg, but have never been there. (I wonder if you didn't just buy into the seeds that were planted in your mind from hearing all of those stories. I have been at historical battleground where I know for sure that peoople have died in battle, but Inever felt as though it was hollowed ground, and i never saw any ghosts...but that is just me.) I too have never seen any real deliverance in churches when they boasted of helping others with demons. I do however believe in the words of knowledge though. :)
Yes, it is not as important for us here,to know these things, but, I just wanted to be able to be prepared to study these truths with her when the time comes. ;)
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I believe that as we believe so it is unto us. If we believe : "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4). then it is well and good. This is not to dispute the reality that there are evil spirits just as there are evil thoughts that are in people's minds. Our minds also think and so we can take in the influences of evil thoughts if our thoughts are not subject to the thoughts and ways of God.
As a man thinketh so is he. Prv 23 : 7 and Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Mtt 12 : 34
If you believe in Vodoo you can die without any medical reason simply because the mind believes in Vodoo. Some have taken sugar pills and been told it is the medicine required to be healed and healing takes place. Some go to Benny Hinn :D
The word of God unscrambles insanity when God chooses to show Himself. He calls us and it is Christ that reveals to us His Father and His Father who drags us to Christ. We have to experience evil by contrast to finally know what is good. I believe one can go into an area and feel the presence of evil that has been thought and evil actions that have been done but, BUT He that is within us IS GREATER than he that is in the world...... yes ? The world is evil.....We have to overcome the world...........
In the final part of LOF part 13 Ray says
"So okay Ray, enought, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
Does the beast manifest physically.....all the time! ;D
In the final part of the LOF part 14 Ray writes....
And when I saw Him (in my SPIRIT) I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME (as He will upon YOU), saying unto ME (and unto YOU) FEAR NOT. Rev 1 : 10-17
Truly: "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
Some would project blame on this or that spirit or this or that experience of heaven or of proverbial Hell........
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Your'e funny Arcturus..."some go to Benny Hinn" ;D that one made me laugh outloud, thanks!
As for what I believe...that God is in me and not satan..., yes, that makes myself an overcomer, praise God. I need and hope to show those fruits infront of my newfound homeschool friend and maybe she will come around to this way of thinking, and to not worry so much about God using her in this capacity for dealing with posessed people.
I too do believe that the power of suggestion is very powerful, especially if it is coming from someone who you love alot. (The man whom we bought our home from was a case in point: his daughter is a PA (Physicians' Assistant) and she told him that most people that had been diagnosed with the disease that he had been diagnosed with, well they are gone within 6 months. Being that he trusted his daughter imensley, he took it to be gospel and probably gave up on life faster that I think he would have had she not said this to him.)
Yes. some do blame spirits instead of looking at the beast within first.
thanks for sharing
Shalom to you too Arcturus! :D
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I believe that as we believe so it is unto us. If we believe : "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4). then it is well and good. This is not to dispute the reality that there are evil spirits just as there are evil thoughts that are in people's minds. Our minds also think and so we can take in the influences of evil thoughts if our thoughts are not subject to the thoughts and ways of God.
As a man thinketh so is he. Prv 23 : 7 and Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Mtt 12 : 34
If you believe in Vodoo you can die without any medical reason simply because the mind believes in Vodoo. Some have taken sugar pills and been told it is the medicine required to be healed and healing takes place. Some go to Benny Hinn :D
The word of God unscrambles insanity when God chooses to show Himself. He calls us and it is Christ that reveals to us His Father and His Father who drags us to Christ. We have to experience evil by contrast to finally know what is good. I believe one can go into an area and feel the presence of evil that has been thought and evil actions that have been done but, BUT He that is within us IS GREATER than he that is in the world...... yes ? The world is evil.....We have to overcome the world...........
In the final part of LOF part 13 Ray says
"So okay Ray, enought, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
Does the beast manifest physically.....all the time! ;D
In the final part of the LOF part 14 Ray writes....
And when I saw Him (in my SPIRIT) I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME (as He will upon YOU), saying unto ME (and unto YOU) FEAR NOT. Rev 1 : 10-17
Truly: "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
Some would project blame on this or that spirit or this or that experience of heaven or of proverbial Hell........
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Arcturus, that was a really great post.
Iris
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Shalom Sue
I do love that greeting. I studied the Jewish faith for some years and was offered to go to Israel and become a Madrich (spelling)....anyway....that was some very far away years ago! I recall singing on the beach in hebrew the antham and other songs of praise....a rich memory but not one that I feel I would want to return to....just a step on the path you know!...
Iris...I am glad you found some value in the post....You would find much much more if you ponder and reflect on the LOF Part 13 and 14. I have been doing just that today and plan to post a new thread arising out of the way the teachings and inspirations through Ray has moved my thoughts and feelings and shifted my perspectives.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Yes, Arcturus,
I too had a love for Israel and after reading Rays stuff on just how coprrupt they have become (The mother of all harlots), well, the spirit took away that love for their uniqueness and now I just see them as any other misled group of people. Some would probably call me anti semitic for saying that, but, I 'm not; neither am I of the replacement Theology sect either...I just am of the 'called out' ones who is trying to make her election sure by finishing the race in a 'spriritual discerning way' of the scriptures instead of the literal/physical way as most believers sadly are doing now a days!!
(Infact, as a Messianic believer this time last year I had spent over six solid weeks, day in and day out doing nothing but working with two other sisters and between our efforts, we were able to raise exactly $40,000.00 and we sent it (all but 10% of it for expenses via 'Christian Friends of Israeli Communities ambasador) to the Gaza Strip homeless refugees that ended up in Gush Katif tent cities. Anyway, I would like to visit there someday, as well as pauls' missionary journeys, but God will have to provide for that!) I have some friend that have gone into the kaballism and who are over there right now and waiting for the temple to be rebuilt ??? they love that place and do not want to come back...she only got a 6 mo visa! Yes, I too love their National Anthem! Have you ever tried any of Paul Wilburs Music? We have a praise and worship video that is the best praise music we have ever heard in our entire lives! :D He has cd's too and they are wonderful!
Shalom Sis!
Susan
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You are so on the right path Sue!......I just am of the 'called out' ones who is trying to make her election sure by finishing the race in a 'spriritual discerning way' of the scriptures instead of the literal/physical way as most believers sadly are doing now a days!!
No I have not heard of Paul Wil.....where I am right now is in a siilent zone! 8)
I have heard and sung too much garbage under the title "praise and worship". :P.....all carnality, sensuality and emotionalism of the flesh with words that carry little honour......like "WE give you glory WE give You prasie".....GIVE ME A BREAK!....WHO in their right spiritual mind can give our Lord ANYTHING of VALUE...WHO? NOT ME THAT IS FOR SURE.....On HIM I depend for EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD HOLY AND WORTHY OF PRAISE....not on some top of the charts hit worship song!!!! Sorry...Paul Will may be very good or not of this category but I have no inclination right now to go and find out....silence for me right now is golden! :D
Shalom....to you Susan....I hope you review the LOF 13 and 14....is is a most liberating teaching and I would want that for you to re-newed depths of meaning and victory in HIM...Shalom
Peace to you
Arctrurus :)
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Arcturus,
You may have a point there. Paul W. does have a slant toward the Messianic doctrine of which we came out of about a year ago, so, why fill our heads with that 'old' and stale thought provoking stuff? The music w/o the lyrics are beautiful, but he doesn't make just the instrumentals only...oh, well, it served its purpose at one time. When I hear it now, it just reminds me of what bondage I used to be in and how GOD has brought me out of it. At this point, classical and instrumentals are sounding the best...just good ole music w/o someones doctrine being sung. thanks for the reminder :Dthat the silent zone is just fine.
I will read 13 and 14 again. Thank you for wanting only the best for me.
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Hi Susan I just noticed at the bottom of page, your name is Susan I am comfortable calling you that.
Music to me doesn't have to be gospel,in fact like you I like easy listening and some Classical.
I also listen to classic country at times.
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Jackie Lee,
I truly like classic rock music (70's), and I like nearly every other kind of music, I used to think that I could never get used to country music, but I actually learned to like it! (BTW, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU PLAY COUNTRY MUSIC BACKWARDS?.... YOU GET YOUR WIFE BACK, THE DOGS RIBS AREN'T BROKEN FROM KICKING HIM, AND YOU ARE SOBER....) Now truely I can't get into that "gangsta rap" ...gangster rap crap ;) but, I don't like getting carried away in my flesh and that is what I tend to do...enjoy it too much when some of the lyrics aren't thinking on good things as the Word tells us to do; infact, sometimes it sends me back in time where I would eally not benefit from being there most of the times. ;) Plus, the older I get the more time I need to have relaxing thoughts going through my head since there is too much stimulation out there on a daily basis to have to process. :o :o
Anyway, I do prefer to be called Susan. When I was a little girl my parents called me Suzy (and dad still does), But, the name Sue reminds me of my rebellious years and how my family resorted at that time to take half of my name away by calling me Sue; which to me was only giving me half of the respect that was due to me...to this day, not one family member except for my DH calls me by my whole name of Susan, even after I have asked them to! Habits are hard to break, ;)
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I think i just came in contacct with a demon............ never mind... it was just some gas.. Kinda bad though
Longhorn
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Jackie Lee,
I truly like classic rock music (70's), and I like nearly every other kind of music, I used to think that I could never get used to country music, but I actually learned to like it! (BTW, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU PLAY COUNTRY MUSIC BACKWARDS?.... YOU GET YOUR WIFE BACK, THE DOGS RIBS AREN'T BROKEN FROM KICKING HIM, AND YOU ARE SOBER....) Now truely I can't get into that "gangsta rap" ...gangster rap crap ;) but, I don't like getting carried away in my flesh and that is what I tend to do...enjoy it too much when some of the lyrics aren't thinking on good things as the Word tells us to do; infact, sometimes it sends me back in time where I would eally not benefit from being there most of the times. ;) Plus, the older I get the more time I need to have relaxing thoughts going through my head since there is too much stimulation out there on a daily basis to have to process. :o :o
Anyway, I do prefer to be called Susan. When I was a little girl my parents called me Suzy (and dad still does), But, the name Sue reminds me of my rebellious years and how my family resorted at that time to take half of my name away by calling me Sue; which to me was only giving me half of the respect that was due to me...to this day, not one family member except for my DH calls me by my whole name of Susan, even after I have asked them to! Habits are hard to break, ;)
Susan sounds as if you and I like much of the same music.
I just don't like hip hop or rap I can't figure it out to be honest..Lol
I sometimes when having an insominiac evening listen to classic 70's or 80's all night very peaceful. ;)
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i think i should be able to answer this one rather well.I saw and spoke with a demon about 14mths ago also heard music backwards saying various satanic messages.This scared me out of my wits and i immediatly felt something was wrong kept looking in the mirror into my eyes as felt there was something inside me that wasn't me.that night i never slept but felt very wierd and fearful the next night i never slept and that morning i got up and knew something was wrong my mind was invaded by evil images and thoughts I felt really sad .I called out To God in my heart as I felt he was the only one who could help me.4 days latter i was still not right I never ate for those days and my windows of normality were few and far between.my thoughts were constantly out of control.i was eventually admitted into a mental institution where i got worse ,the doctors wanted me to take meds but i thought they were trying to kill me .I was chanting my name and saying i was going to "hell".(think i was already there!)anyway they came in with a bible and i screamed at them"JESUS CHRIST"they all left the room and came back with a BIG needle it took 3 men and one woman to hold me down as they stuck it in my bum.I woke up to a voice calling my name,no one in the room?I also woke up praising God and have been walking by his Grace daily since.I believe I was' demon possed' if you like, I meet 2 of my nurses after my conversion at church some time latter and they see it all the time they said they were praying for me and that i was talking real crazy,so I guess only God really knows.any way now i have no fear of satan only God who works all things for good to those who love him to those who are the called according to his purpose.Praise God for his mercy endures forever!amen
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I would say "Hello Honey" how was your day?
Longhorn
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I think i just came in contacct with a demon............ never mind... it was just some gas.. Kinda bad though
Longhorn
Oh Longhorn you're a riot! :D I love your antics! You always make me chuckle. Thanks!
Here’s a smiley just for you! (http://www.myemoticons.com/images/allgifs/fart.gif)
And then:
I would say "Hello Honey" how was your day?
Longhorn
You're very Funny! (http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/im/lol.gif)
Bless you!
~Paula
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Hey Longhorn, are we gonna have to send you to the corner for time out?? ;) ::)
Littlerock, Did you get my country music Joke about when you play country music forward, you loose everything; but when you play country music BACKwards, you gain BACK everything that you had lost. ;) It sounds like you had a heck of a time with that demon possession situation...I am surprised that hearing rock and roll played backwards did it to you thoug. thank God all wa worked out!
Cute embarassed smiely face that is blowing hot air Paula!
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Yeah Susan I got your joke. It was very funny! :D :D I’ve never heard that one before!
On a serious note I believe that people can be possessed and obsessed with demons. I've seen a person that was demonically possessed before.
Little Rock I am sorry to her about your experience but Praise God He brought you through for His Glory! We all have to walk through the valley of the shadow of death but it is different for different people. Praise God He brings us through!
I have heard and sung too much garbage under the title "praise and worship". :P.....all carnality, sensuality and emotionalism of the flesh with words that carry little honour......like "WE give you glory WE give You prasie".....GIVE ME A BREAK!....WHO in their right spiritual mind can give our Lord ANYTHING of VALUE...WHO? NOT ME THAT IS FOR SURE.....On HIM I depend for EVERYTHING THAT IS GOOD HOLY AND WORTHY OF PRAISE....not on some top of the charts hit worship song!!!! Sorry...Paul Will may be very good or not of this category but I have no inclination right now to go and find out....silence for me right now is golden! :D
Arctrurus :)
I’m going to have to disagree with you on this Arcturus.
I think praise and worship music can be a powerful vehicle to elevate our hearts in worship. I don't listen to it enough!
When I do it lifts my heart in worship and many times I weep when in His presence. I also think it is important to that WE
give the Lord praise and Glory!
It is true that there is nothing good or spiritual in ourselves and we know that in Him we live and move and have our being. The Lord is our Life! He commands our praise and worship, that is not a carnal thing. It comes from Him and His Spirit working in us!
I looked up a few verses concerning OUR praising and worshiping God.
Ps 29:2
Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name; worship the Lord in the splendor of his holiness.
Ps 95:6
Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker;
Ps 96:9
Worship the Lord in the splendor of his holiness; tremble before him, all the earth.
Ps 99:5
Exalt the Lord our God and worship at his footstool; he is holy.
Ps 100:2
Worship the Lord with gladness; come before him with joyful songs.
Lu 4:8
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"
Joh 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
De 32:3
I will proclaim the name of the Lord. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
1Ch 29:13
Now, our God, we give you thanks, and praise your glorious name.
Ps 18:46
The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Ps 40:3
He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the Lord.
Ps 18:46
The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Ps 43:4
Then will I go to the altar of God, to God, my joy and my delight. I will praise you with the harp, O God, my God.
Ps 44:8
In God we make our boast all day long, and we will praise your name forever. Selah
Ps 47:7
For God is the King of all the earth; sing to him a psalm of praise.
Ps 59:17
O my Strength, I sing praise to you; you, O God, are my fortress, my loving God.
Ps 66:8
Praise our God, O peoples, let the sound of his praise be heard;
Ps 67:3
May the peoples praise you, O God; may all the peoples praise you.
Ps 68:19
Praise be to the Lord, to God our Savior, who daily bears our burdens. Selah
Ps 68:26
Praise God in the great congregation; praise the Lord in the assembly of Israel.
Ps 68:32
Sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth, sing praise to the Lord, Selah
Ps 69:30
I will praise God's name in song and glorify him with thanksgiving.
Ps 71:22
I will praise you with the harp for your faithfulness, O my God; I will sing praise to you with the lyre, O Holy One of Israel.
Ps 75:9
As for me, I will declare this forever; I will sing praise to the God of Jacob.
Ps 86:12
I will praise you, O Lord my God, with all my heart; I will glorify your name forever.
Ps 104:33
I will sing to the Lord all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live.
Ps 106:47
Save us, O Lord our God, and gather us from the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise.
Ps 106:48
Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting. Let all the people say, "Amen!"
Ps 109:1
O God, whom I praise, do not remain silent,
Ps 145:1
I will exalt you, my God the King; I will praise your name for ever and ever.
Bless you!
~Paula
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Hello Paula
I see Mystery Babylon applicable to Isa 29 : 13 And the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips but remove their hearts and minds far from Me, and their fear and reverence for Me are a commandment of men that is learned by repetition without any thought as to their meaning.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
PS We know that Jesus always went alone to pray. He is the example not the OT Psalms that were also authored by either Asaph or one of his descendents, a Levite in charge of worship music and the descendants of Korah an OT priest.....
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Paula
i thought it appropriate to add that my view is not in contradiction with the word of God that also directs us through Paul to say that Eph 5 : 19 Speak out to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, offering praise with voices and instruments and making melody with all your heart to the Lord.
I merely show where I am right now in my walk that is not in opposition with anyone. I am experiencing having come out of Mystery Babylon and alone with Christ is where I am right now rightly or wrongly.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Everytime Arcturus post ...... I learn something.
Longhorn
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Bless you Longhorn...me too... ;)
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Arcturus I want to just comment on something you wrote: :)
I have heard and sung too much garbage under the title "praise and worship".[/b][/i]
Please understand that the words mean nothing to God; he is not interested in how eloquently they are spoken, and neither is worried if they are spoken in some broken tounge by someone has no real concept of what they are saying.
We must never forget, that the words only covey the message, while the heart conveys the intent. God reads hearts, and please know that if you were singing "praise and worship" with a loving and faithful heart, this is all God cared about and he would find your words sincere.
The following Scripture may help you understand what I am trying to say :)
Mar 12:41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
It is the words (love, honor and faith) from the heart that God listens too, the words from the mouth are for the world. :)
I pray that you will not take offense to this post.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Of course Darren
It is our motives, thoughts, words and deeds that will be weighed and measured.
Rev 20 : 13...and their cases determined by what they had done ACCORDING TO THEIR MOTIVES, AIMS AND WORKS.
Rev 20 : 12.......and the dead were judged, sentenced by what they had done, their whole way of feeling and acting, their AIMS AND ENDEAVORS....
Dan 10 : 12...Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you SET YOUR MIND AND HEART TO UNDERSTAND and to humble yourself before your God.....
This is the aim and endeavors acceptable to the Lord....that we set our minds and hearts to UNDERSTAND HIM.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Great Arcturus :)
So I guess that means, those songs of "praise and worship" were not garbage from your heart and neither from your mouth.
God gives us so much latitude, unlike the church; where if you often dress incorrectly, don't "offer" enough, then you are either shunned or asked to leave. They could care less about the motives of your heart. :(
But they are not difficult to see :) For Paul (I think) forewarned us of them
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock
Love to you,
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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I appreciate what you seem ( to me) to be driving at Darren but sad to say, when I was in Babylon, I was a die hard true Babylonian!
...I can see where you are coming from ( I think, I hope ) but where you are coming from is not not where I came from. I was truly Babylonian, hook line and sinker! I was a leader!....so much dung!...you know...so much dung!
....my Lord took the stones out of my heart and is continuing to do so....as for now, my process is to keep still and learn to know He is God. So now I am going to keep quiet :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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i think i should be able to answer this one rather well.I saw and spoke with a demon about 14mths ago also heard music backwards saying various satanic messages.This scared me out of my wits and i immediatly felt something was wrong kept looking in the mirror into my eyes as felt there was something inside me that wasn't me.that night i never slept but felt very wierd and fearful the next night i never slept and that morning i got up and knew something was wrong my mind was invaded by evil images and thoughts I felt really sad .I called out To God in my heart as I felt he was the only one who could help me.4 days latter i was still not right I never ate for those days and my windows of normality were few and far between.my thoughts were constantly out of control.i was eventually admitted into a mental institution where i got worse ,the doctors wanted me to take meds but i thought they were trying to kill me .I was chanting my name and saying i was going to "hell".(think i was already there!)anyway they came in with a bible and i screamed at them"JESUS CHRIST"they all left the room and came back with a BIG needle it took 3 men and one woman to hold me down as they stuck it in my bum.I woke up to a voice calling my name,no one in the room?I also woke up praising God and have been walking by his Grace daily since.I believe I was' demon possed' if you like, I meet 2 of my nurses after my conversion at church some time latter and they see it all the time they said they were praying for me and that i was talking real crazy,so I guess only God really knows.any way now i have no fear of satan only God who works all things for good to those who love him to those who are the called according to his purpose.Praise God for his mercy endures forever!amen
I tried LSD about 25 yrs ago, but it sounds like you found some very good mushrooms.
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I appreciate what you seem ( to me) to be driving at Darren but sad to say, when I was in Babylon, I was a die hard true Babylonian!
...I can see where you are coming from ( I think, I hope ) but where you are coming from is not not where I came from. I was truly Babylonian, hook line and sinker! I was a leader!....so much dung!...you know...so much dung!
....my Lord took the stones out of my heart and is continuing to do so....as for now, my process is to keep still and learn to know He is God. So now I am going to keep quiet :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
:) :) :) :) :) :) Well then Arcturus, I can only say that the transformation has been miraculous !!!
Thank you for sharing, for I now see why you posted those words. Oh, you do know that being quiet is one thing, but keeping your thoughts and fears from God is another! :)
I cannot begin to tell you how much weight has been lifted from my shoulders, just by knowing that I am in God and he is in me. I used to like being in control of my circumstances, not necessarily a control freak, but someone who always knew, when, where, why who and how about everyuthing. Not anymore, for now that God is "totally" (me not trying to hijack) in control, I have discovered just how wonderful, loving and majestic our God and Father truly is. He is awesome! :)
Praise to you Arcturus, for you have come far in your walk with God. :)
Love to you in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren
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I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
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And in Iraq some Iraqi son, daughter, mother or father will be killed too.
God makes the sun shine and rain fall everywhere.
(Mat 5:45) That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
We are all His children
We are blessed to be shown the truths of god, He knows are heart and hears our praise
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I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
Huh? ???
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I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
I pray that it isn't one of my nephews. :'(
Iris
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I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
I get it!
If I am not listening to Ray on the way to/from work, then I listen to praise tapes. The aqua WOW Worship and OpenMy Eyes Lord CD are awesome. Now, of course I pick & choose. This one reminds me of Arcturus:
Its the song of the redeemed/Rising from the African plain
Its the song of the forgiven/Drowning out the Amazon rain
The song of Asian believers/Filled w/ Gods Holy Fire
Its every tribe, every tongue, every nation/ A LOVE SONG BORN OF A GREATFUL CHOIR!!!
Its all of Gods children singing Glory glory hallelujah HE REIGNS HE REIGNS
....The Newsboys, Sparrow Records
I got in the house last nite singing that at the top of my lungs!!! My hubby stops painting a door and got into the mood too. He was getting frustrated and shouldve had music on.
That I can do. The last few months at church, while they were "praising" I was standing there bored and in no mood to "praise Him".
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Gena
What a blessing! thank you..... 8) 8)
you've made my day ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus! ;D
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[
I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
Longhorn, Gena or someone,
I don't get it! Gena You got it? ??? Can you explain to me what people getting their head blown off in Iraq has to do with praising the Lord?
Thanks, Paula
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Paula,
What I got from Longhorns' post was that when he comes to this forum, he doesn't enjoy the so called 'problems' that we at this forum are having (like disagreeing about lovely things like dancing/music/praise/worship) when you compare the REAL problems that are going on in the world (like our soldiers who are loosing their lives to fight in a real war for our freedom). So Longhorn asks us to chill out with one another on this forum about our spiritual different view points and to see the REAL PROBLEMS (like what is going on with our dying soldiers.) OI hope that helped, and I hope that I have interpreted Longhorn correctly. ;)
what say you, Longhorn?
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Susan,
Most of the threads I have been keeping track of seem to be filled with much of an air of gloom. I am not sure if I am reading this correctly, but I just think this is an off time for the forum so to speak. Perhaps, we need more humor or something that is off the wall. I am not sure, things have taken a serious note, that is why I have not done much posting, but just sitting back and observing.
Perhaps, Longhorn is referring to this or maybe not, this needed to be addressed.
I am wondering where all the joy and the well the spirit of contentment went, I sense a great deal of restlessness, perhaps we are all feeling that we need spring break very badly. I am sure in time, that the forum will once again come out of this off period. It is normal.
We are just on the down side of the wave right now.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Anne,
Life is that way...ups and downs. I just take life one moment at a time and let the Holy Spirit guide what I do in one day. I personally tend to be on the serious side of life consistantly; but, I am learnign to lighten up too. Yes, the weather does have alot to do with our moods; and at the end of Wintertime, yes, people are wanting to fly open the Winter door that has been shut for too long and run to the outdoors into the sunshine and to where new life is just beginning to bud again; where greenery is about to come back into existance again. ( I know that I tend to get cabin fever toward the end of Winter.) Thank God that the sun is shining today! Yesterday it was literally BROWN OUTSIDE ALL DAY LONG; AND MISERABLE WITH DANGEROUSLY HIGH BLOWING WINDS. No one wants to go outside when it is like that!
I was up until about 3am with Daniel this am. He caught the stomache flu virus and has not eaten a thing now in 24 hrs; only clear liquids (and a zinc tablet)! I was up stripping his bed clothes and having to wash and dru them as well as scrub the toilet at 2am last night from him being sick; so maybe my mood is gloomy today b/c I didn't get much rest last night. (You and your family were sick this last week Anne, so maybe that puts a certains negative light on how we view life sometimes) ???
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D(that's the best I can do for right now) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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[I can sing and dance... but very little. Somewhere in Iraq a 18 yr old soldier is about to have his or her head blown off.. Lets lighten up folks.
Longhorn
Longhorn, Gena or someone,
I don't get it! Gena You got it? ??? Can you explain to me what people getting their head blown off in Iraq has to do with praising the Lord?
Thanks, Paula
Right praise God, We can't stop what is going on in the world like wars and famines, but we can praise God knowing he will work it all out in his time.
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Right praise God, We can't stop what is going on in the world like wars and famines, but we can praise God knowing he will work it all out in his time.
Yes, Jackie Lee, your right about that.
Iris
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Thanks Gena and Susan,
I must be dense. ::)
But it seems this thread has come full cycle. Which is what I was saying WE SHOULD PRAISE THE LORD, with music or without, and that is not a work of the flesh it comes from the spirit.
Arcturus, after reviewing the thread I see I missed a post of yours. So I may have misunderstood.
Paula
i thought it appropriate to add that my view is not in contradiction with the word of God that also directs us through Paul to say that Eph 5 : 19 Speak out to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, offering praise with voices and instruments and making melody with all your heart to the Lord.
I merely show where I am right now in my walk that is not in opposition with anyone. I am experiencing having come out of Mystery Babylon and alone with Christ is where I am right now rightly or wrongly.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
It is good to be silent too. :)
Blessings!
~Paula
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Susan,
Thanks for responding to my post. I am so sorry that Daniel is sick. My prayers are with the little guy. Have fun running the errands and pass on my love to you son and your husband.
Sickness always puts a damper on things, perhaps I have seen in the forum in this light.
Thanks.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Judging by some of the crazy emails that Ray gets one can only conclude this to be the case. Religious spirits are probably the worst
Dave UK
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AMEN TO THAT DAVE!! I live in the buckle part of the bible belt in this country...and it is a trial everyday out here!
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Yea I've heard about that buckle . It's not heaven on earth then ?
We don't have any bible belts or buckles here in the UK , but the place is full of religion just like every where else I suppose
Dave UK
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Weel, Dave, unfortunately the 'RELIGIOUS/LEGALISTIC' SPIRIT IS MORE PREVELANT HERE IN THIS AREA OF THE USA SINCE THERE ARE MORE 'CHURCHES' (PER CAPITA) IN THIS AREA COMPARED TO OTHER AREAS INTHE COUNTRY. ::)
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Hi Arcturus,
You said quote "I have heard and sung too much garbage under the title "praise and worship".[/color][/i] I too have done that when i was in the church....I now do not sing any of their songs...since my eyes were opened, i see that i was singing to another Jesus.......it was all fleshly......I actually can not stand the songs the churches sing anymore.....its such a lie...they sing to a jesus who only saves them...they sing to a god who burns most of His creation in hell.....they sing to a false god.....I thank God everyday for opening my eyes to the truth, for the truth really does set you free.....thanks God.....Beverley Canada :) :)
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Hello Beverly
Thank you for sharing that you too ate the husks of the pig pen just like I did! And that you too know exactly what husks taste like!... :P
We can be glad the banquet we have here to share in fellowship comforts for our souls as we learn more of HIS ways thoughts and plans as we savour the delicious truths set before us in Bible Truths and all the wonderful work Ray has done to bring us closer to the truth and to God.
Here is a thought David wrote...I think it fits with those who follow Ray's teachings.........
Psalms 23 : 5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies............
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Yes maam, a hearty appetite for the most divine feast anywhere. (when I am not fetsting I am chewing on the meat of HIS truths, kind of like chewing on a beef jerkey stick for days :P :P ;D) It is truly the meat and not the milk anymore! Praise God.
Great point Beverly; so true that it is a dif god and a dif jesus that the denominations are singing to isn't it? I too have not felt comfortable in singing along with those prompted songs either! :-\
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Longhorn plug your ears. (http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/1.gif) I do not wish to offend.
I must be strange ladies because I view things differently.
Please, if you will allow me to explain myself I will try to do so humbly.
I got a glimpse of God as a child in the Adventist Church and started loving Him then. I finally realized that I needed to accept Jesus Christ as my Savior when I was 14 years old.
The Jesus that I knew and loved as an Adventist was not a false Jesus. I have just gotten a greater revelation of who HE is!
2 Corinthians 3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
As an Adventist, I was under the Law so I had a veil over my eyes so I could not clearly see the Lord.
There have been many turns in my journey of faith as I've studied and worshiped with the Baptist, Mennonite, Vineyard, Assembly of God, and Messianic Jews, but it has always been the same Jesus!
My heart has soared in worship and praise as I sang with each group of believers. It didn't matter if it was contemporary worship or classic hymns. I believe praising God with song transports us to a higher realm. One day all creation will sing. Rev 5:13
Worship and praise music is the one thing that can connect those who believe in Jesus Christ and him crucified.
(Christians don't sing songs glorifying Hell and damnation of souls for eternity.)
I still weep when I hear songs of worship and praise. Even older worship songs from long ago are powerful to me. Worship music has helped me overcome some of the most difficult times in my life. The night my husband passed away I spent all night listening to and singing songs of praise. I sought refuge and comfort in the presence of God in worship. I believe worshiping helps us rise above ourselves and our problems to glorify God.
Is that carnality and emotionalism of the flesh? I don't believe so! I'm not saying there is no sensationalism in people or praise music but I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water either or discount the power of worship. The Lord inhabits our praise.
The difference is most people don't believe what they are singing! If they did they would know that Jesus is our redeemer and sovereign in all things.
So the difference for me now is- those songs are more powerful!
From the Cd I was listening to this morning.
Jude Doxology
Randy & Terry Butler
And now all glory to Him who alone is God,
Who saves us through his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord
For He is able to keep us from falling away,
He brings us into his presence with love and joy
All power, authority, all splendor and majesty
Are his from the beginning and evermore and evermore
I could give more examples of lyrics but you get the idea. So whether we choose to worship with praise music or not I don't believe we should create a prejudice and judgment against it. We have far greater liberty as we walk in truth.
We all see Him in the glass but dimly. As we come closer we see Him more clearly but He has not yet been fully revealed, for when He has -we shall be like Him. So it is not us/them mentality for we are all on this journey, or that we have attained, rather it is a progression in truth as the blinders are coming off and we long for the day when He will be fully revealed. Christ in us, the Hope of Glory!
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
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Beverley & Paula:
I agree w/ you both!! :D
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Dear Paula,
I understand how P& W music has helped you in some life and death situations, and how that God came to you through music, b/c I too have experienced the same, as I'm sure that most everyone here has done occassionally. I have been ministered to via music; but only rarely. I am glad that it works for you more often than it did for me and a few others here on the forum.
All that I was trying to say when I spoke of the different god and different jesus was that back when I was in the institutional churches, I saw the 'IDOLS OF PEOPLES' HEARTS' for the majority of times when singing and playing musical instruments would be going on. (I saw and heard the following things that would distract me from worlshipping HIM the way I needed to and that made me unhappy.) I've seen the majority of believers whom would play or sing their music and instead of giving their hearts to God they gave their praise and worship to the idols of their heart (look how great I am; look at me God, I am singing/playing for you...instead of being humble about it in their hearts; or they are trying to impress each other on how great they are; or they are doing it for money/sales of cd's/for being a traveling dance team for love offerings, or going on tour, etc...) Yes, there are some songs that are sincere, like THE OLD RUGGED CROSS AND HOW GREAT THOU ART...but, I have still seen, heard and felt that even these older songs were bieng used at times for the self gloryification and I could see right through it. There is only one group that I can listen to today that I can feel even remotely close to God while listening to it...and this musician has made millions of dollars on cd sales and by going all around the world in concerts and singing the same songs and lyrics but in different languages. I guess that what I got back then while in the church served it's purpose but, if you think about the SPIRITUAL side of praising and woshipping God...HE wants THE INTENT OF THE HEART TO BE MUSIC TO HIS EARS, AND NOT SO MUCH OUR PHYSICAL WORDS BEING SUNG OUTLOUD (weather that is singing, thinking, or reading, talking, playing an instrument, or praying...etc.) The question to me is are we doing it FOR AND TO BLESS HIM or are we are doing it to get something FROM HIM; that makes the difference to me. This is a hard issue, I know.
Much love in HIM,
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It really is a matter of our heart. If our heart is pure, then our mouth is pure to sing His praises. To the pure all things are pure. It's amazing that out of the same tongue proceed both blessing and cursing. "Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.....But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:5,6,8-10
Paula and Susan, I know what you both mean, and I feel that we are all of one mind and one spirit. We all just see things differentley now than we ever did before. God bless.
Your brother,
Dwight
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Hi Susan my sweet sister in Christ :)
I feel compelled to share something regarding a comment you made:
Great point Beverly; so true that it is a dif god and a dif jesus that the denominations are singing to isn't it? I too have not felt comfortable in singing along with those prompted songs either!
Please read this with a open heart and open mind for I do not wish to offend you or anyone. :)
But it would seem to me that you are rejecting words of praise, not because of what they are, or what they convey, but because who wrote and sang them. ???
Would you feel such discomfort if Ray or any other in this forum penned those words? It matters not where or by whom the songs of praise were first formed; for who can honestly say that that they have said a sentence or thought a thought that has not worded before? :)
May I ask you why you feel discomfort when you hear such songs today? It seems to me, that you were where God wanted you, doing what God willed; God seen fit to open your eyes, he did not turn his back on you, for singing songs to a God and Jesus, he had you believe.
The words of Praise did not change, what changed is your focal point, for now you see God for who he is. I believe with al my heart, that those songs should NOT now leave one in discomfort, but rather their words and melody should be silver lined, for now each word and every note is directed to its rightful owner. God himself.
Please do not ever think that God takes comfort knowing that anyone that he has brought into the light, should feel distaste hearing songs of praise. :)
God reads hearts, and as you asked: Should one listen to songs of praise and perhaps sing along out of Love and Praise for him, or not, to justify ones own stance? :)
I know that sounds harsh, but words of praise from the heart are words of praise whether they are spoken, sung, heard or felt.
I love you my sister, and I truly hope that you can someday soon listen to such songs and be ever so grateful to God for allowing you to KNOW to whom the words and the intent is directed. :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Guys, I will think this over and get back with you this weekend when I have more time. Thank you for your love and support; I do not take offense when I am challenged to rethink an issue, as I do not claim to know it all. Love to all of you :D. Talk with you later.
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Darren,
Thanks for posting your post dear brother. I am a musician to the core. I was a litle disturbed at seeing some of the conversation in here and steered to avoid it, becuase I did not know if anyone felt as I do.
There is nothing wrong with any music. Whether written in Babylon or outside of it. Now what I am not saying there are not wrong musics out there, clearly I know that there are anti-God songs and such. But I am talking about the more pure music.
I love praise music and I compose quite a bit of it. As long as every note glorifies God and word points to him, then all is good. In fact he loved praise music, why do you think he even created music, if something was wrong.
Now in considering the other side, there are others out there that make shows of it, but that's okay, becuase they are getting the message out there about God. There's a Scripture that says Paul is addressing someone or a church I can't remember and he is talking about other preachers. He says it is good, even though their motives are wrong or something like that, becuase it gets the Good News out. Same principle with music.
Now as a musician and one who loves and lives music in such a way that it is a sweet offering to God, I was a little offended by what was written here.
Darren thanks for sticking your neck out, becuase I could not do it. Sometimes I just need to learn to bite the bullet and post.
<is currently listening to praise music by the way> <grins>
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Dear Ray,
I know you have said many times that you don't attend a church. I go back and forth within myself becuase I am so hungry for teaching and communing, if you will, with "believers" however, when I do go to a church, I usually leave feeling frustrated, comdemned, crazy or angry. Whenever I am in a church and people around me are speaking in tongues...and encouraging me to lift my hands and "praise Him"... or instructing me to "worship" because "God inhabits the praises of his people." I cannot explain it but I get so angry! Is that even in the bible? What does it mean to "worship God?" That may be a stupid question, but when I'm in a church and I look around but don't feel compelled to babble in tongues or wave my hands...I want to run for the door. And I'm advised by well-meaning Christians that I need to "let go and let God in." I'm told I'm supposed to praise God even when I don't feel like it, because I shouldn't be led by my emot ions. In your wisdom and revelatory opinion...just how does one worship God? (I feel silly asking that.) Thanks so much.... Marie
Dear Marie:
OBEDIENCE! There is no greater worship to God than to be obedient to Him. Jesus said, "Why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and DO NOT THE THINGS WHICH I SAY" (Luke 6:46).
You would not feel uncomfortable in our meetings, I guarantee you. We are to worship; God in spirit and in truth. God's WORD is truth. And it is through HIS Spirit that we obey His truths. And that is true worship. It is fine to pray and sing and such things, but let's face it, people love to do those things because it makes THEM feel good, and they can only hope that maybe it makes God feel good too. But where there is not true obedience, any other form of worship is in vain.
God be with you,
Ray
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Personally I love music! It has saved me many times from my melancholy or at least got me through it. Over time I have found that I am choosing mostly Christian music over secular music. There are some really talented people out there!
Ray is right though, I listen because it makes me feel good, or it helps to express bottled up emotions. I've never been one to shout and sing and wave my hands, etc. in church, but at home alone when it's just me and the Lord, I do like to think that's He's singing and dancing with me. It's true, I can't be certain if He approves, but I "feel" like He does.
I do know that musical talent must come from the Lord just as the ability to paint a beautiful picture comes from Him too....He paints the skies, the rainbows, the flowers...he put music in nature everywhere...does anyone deny that birds are constantly singing??? Of course there is chaotic music out there (even in the Christian genre) but there is much that is soothing to the soul (at least for me). If it's an idol of the heart than I guess I'm just not ready to give that one up yet!
My children love music too and they have their favorite Jesus songs, as they call them. My son can't sing in tune or on beat for the life of him, but he belts it out nonetheless and it is so cute. And I'd rather him sing about God than some other scary stuff out there.
Personally, I don't care what the artist's motivation is or where they are coming from, if the music and the lyrics speak to me and minister to my soul, then I consider it a blessing...
Peace,
Diana
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Angels & Demons
« on: Yesterday at 06:32:23 PM »
> Hi Ray,
> I have read that angels and demons are messengers. Do you believe
> this means that they cause our thoughts? So if i have a good thought,
> that might be from an angel, and if i have a bad thought, that might
> be from a demon? Thanks.
>
> Sean
Dear Sean:
No.
Ray
Ray just CRACKS ME UP! This is hysterical.... ;D
Anyways, I wanted to address the original question of this thread: Do demons manifest physically in people today?
Before I became a Christian, I worked for several years as a counselor and caregiver to people suffering from eating disorders. Most of our cases were really severe. Anyways, we use to have to stay with them during the night and watch that they didn't hurt themselves. Most of them didn't sleep at night and would need someone to talk to. Like I said, I wasn't a Christian and I didn't really know anything about demons etc. but a few years ago I was studying this subject out and I realized I had probably experienced some "possessed" people during my work at the clinic.
At the time I didn't know what to make of some of the things I saw, but they freaked me out! There were patients that would go into trance like states and the physical features of their faces would change and their eyes would get pure black. It was the scariest thing I had ever seen. They didn't rotate their heads, puke, or scream obscenities but the silent, cold hard stares from an otherwise sweet girl was enough to make your blood stop pumping. When I talked to other counselors about this they chalked it up to the mental illness...but how does mental illness make a girl's face change so much it was unrecognizable?? It was bizarre, let me tell you. These girls and boys hear voices in their heads that say horrible things to them constantly. And most of them are terribly young. It's devastating.
Now, I'm not saying that anybody who has an eating disorder is possessed by demons....I really don't know what to think. I'm only relating what my experience was. Did Ray say somewhere that he thought all illness were caused by Satan and his army??
Peace,
Diana
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Hi Diana,
This may be the email you are referring to.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html -----------------
Who makes people sick God or satan? Preachers say God is all powerful but then give satan all the credit when something bad happens.
Dear Reader:
I can give you the simple answer, but few there be who [1] believe it or [2] understand it.
"ALL is of God," but God never lies, never temps people, and never causes people to sin.
Men lie, and men are tempted by their own lusts, and men sin VOLUNTARYILY from their heart.
Yes, Satan causes disease, Luke 13:16, but only becuase it is in God's plan and purpose that there
be disease in the first place.
God be with you,
Ray
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Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?"
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Lest anyone be confused regarding whether or not singing Praise to God is in vain and is not "true" worship; the Scriptures seem not to support this stance. :)
Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.
The word {Sing} appears 124 times in the King James. Praising our God and Father through singing is Scriptual and it feels Good for a reason. Our God and Father, commanded it. :)
How can we sing not, and be in true obedience?
Psa 66:2 sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.
Exd 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Exd 15:21 And Miriam answered them, [li]sing [/li] ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Exd 32:18 And he said, [It is] not the voice of [them that] shout for mastery, neither [is it] the voice of [them that] cry for being overcome: [but] the noise of [them that] [li]sing [/li] do I hear.
Num 21:17 Then Israel sang this song, Spring up, O well; [li]sing [/li] ye unto it:
Jdg 5:3 Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, [even] I, will [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD; I will [li]sing [/li] [praise] to the LORD God of Israel.
1Sa 21:11 And the servants of Achish said unto him, [Is] not this David the king of the land? did they not [li]sing [/li] one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands?
2Sa 22:50 Therefore I will give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and I will [li]sing [/li] praises unto thy name.
1Ch 16:9 [li]sing [/li] unto him, [li]sing [/li] psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.
1Ch 16:23 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
1Ch 16:33 Then shall the trees of the wood [li]sing [/li] out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.
2Ch 20:22 And when they began to [li]sing [/li] and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.
2Ch 23:13 And she looked, and, behold, the king stood at his pillar at the entering in, and the princes and the trumpets by the king: and all the people of the land rejoiced, and sounded with trumpets, also the [li]sing [/li]ers with instruments of musick, and such as taught to [li]sing [/li] praise. Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason.
2Ch 29:30 Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to [li]sing [/li] praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Job 29:13 The bles[li]sing [/li] of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to [li]sing [/li] for joy.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will [li]sing [/li] praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Psa 9:2 I will be glad and rejoice in thee: I will [li]sing [/li] praise to thy name, O thou most High.
Psa 9:11 [li]sing [/li] praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings.
Psa 13:6 I will [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Psa 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD, among the heathen, and [li]sing [/li] praises unto thy name.
Psa 21:13 Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: [so] will we [li]sing [/li] and praise thy power.
Psa 27:6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will [li]sing [/li], yea, I will [li]sing [/li] praises unto the LORD.
Psa 30:4 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.
Psa 30:12 To the end that [my] glory may [li]sing [/li] praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Psa 33:2 praise the LORD with harp: [li]sing [/li] unto him with the psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings.
Psa 33:3 [li]sing [/li] unto him a new song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
Psa 47:6 [li]sing [/li] praises to God, [li]sing [/li] praises: [li]sing [/li] praises unto our King, [li]sing [/li] praises.
Psa 47:7 For God [is] the King of all the earth: [li]sing [/li] ye praises with understanding.
Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: [and] my tongue shall [li]sing [/li] aloud of thy righteousness.
Psa 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will [li]sing [/li] and give praise.
Psa 57:9 I will praise thee, O Lord, among the people: I will [li]sing [/li] unto thee among the nations.
Psa 59:16 But I will [li]sing [/li] of thy power; yea, I will [li]sing [/li] aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble.
Psa 59:17 Unto thee, O my strength, will I [li]sing [/li]: for God [is] my defence, [and] the God of my mercy.
Psa 61:8 So will I [li]sing [/li] praise unto thy name for ever, that I may daily perform my vows.
Psa 65:13 The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also [li]sing [/li].
Psa 66:2 [li]sing [/li] forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.
Psa 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall [li]sing [/li] unto thee; they shall [li]sing [/li] [to] thy name. Selah.
Psa 67:4 O let the nations be glad and [li]sing [/li] for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Psa 68:4 [li]sing [/li] unto God, [li]sing [/li] praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
Psa 68:32 [li]sing [/li] unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O [li]sing [/li] praises unto the Lord; Selah:
Psa 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, [even] thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I [li]sing [/li] with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Psa 71:23 My lips shall greatly rejoice when I [li]sing [/li] unto thee; and my soul, which thou hast redeemed.
Psa 75:9 But I will declare for ever; I will [li]sing [/li] praises to the God of Jacob.
Psa 81:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Gittith, [A Psalm] of Asaph.]] [li]sing [/li] aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
Psa 89:1 [[Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.]] I will [li]sing [/li] of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
Psa 92:1 [[A Psalm [or] Song for the sabbath day.]] [It is a] good [thing] to give thanks unto the LORD, and to [li]sing [/li] praises unto thy name, O most High:
Psa 95:1 O come, let us [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 96:1 O [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD a new song: [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, all the earth.
Psa 96:2 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
Psa 98:1 [[A Psalm.]] O [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 98:4 Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and [li]sing [/li] praise.
Psa 98:5 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
Psa 101:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] I will [li]sing [/li] of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I [li]sing [/li].
Psa 104:12 By them shall the fowls of the heaven have their habitation, [which] [li]sing [/li] among the branches.
Psa 104:33 I will [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD as long as I live: I will [li]sing [/li] praise to my God while I have my being.
Psa 105:2 [li]sing [/li] unto him, [li]sing [/li] psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
Psa 108:1 [[A Song [or] Psalm of David.]] O God, my heart is fixed; I will [li]sing [/li] and give praise, even with my glory.
Psa 108:3 I will praise thee, O LORD, among the people: and I will [li]sing [/li] praises unto thee among the nations.
Psa 135:3 praise the LORD; for the LORD [is] good: [li]sing [/li] praises unto his name; for [it is] pleasant.
Psa 137:3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us [required of us] mirth, [saying], [li]sing [/li] us [one] of the songs of Zion.
Psa 137:4 How shall we [li]sing [/li] the LORD'S song in a strange land?
Psa 138:1 [[[A Psalm] of David.]] I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I [li]sing [/li] praise unto thee.
Psa 138:5 Yea, they shall [li]sing [/li] in the ways of the LORD: for great [is] the glory of the LORD.
Psa 144:9 I will [li]sing [/li] a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings will I [li]sing [/li] praises unto thee.
Psa 145:7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall [li]sing [/li] of thy righteousness.
Psa 146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will [li]sing [/li] praises unto my God while I have any being.
Psa 147:1 praise ye the LORD: for [it is] good to [li]sing [/li] praises unto our God; for [it is] pleasant; [and] praise is comely.
Psa 147:7 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD with thanksgiving; [li]sing [/li] praise upon the harp unto our God:
Psa 149:1 praise ye the LORD. [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them [li]sing [/li] praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them [li]sing [/li] aloud upon their beds.
Pro 29:6 In the transgression of an evil man [there is] a snare: but the righteous doth [li]sing [/li] and rejoice.
Isa 5:1 Now will I [li]sing [/li] to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
Isa 12:5 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this [is] known in all the earth.
Isa 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre [li]sing [/li] as an harlot.
Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, [li]sing [/li] many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isa 24:14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall [li]sing [/li] for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and [li]sing [/li], ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 27:2 In that day [li]sing [/li] ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb [li]sing [/li]: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
Isa 38:20 The LORD [was ready] to save me: therefore we will [li]sing [/li] my songs to the stringed instruments all the days of our life in the house of the LORD.
Isa 42:10 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 42:11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up [their voice], the villages [that] Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock [li]sing [/li], let them shout from the top of the mountains.
Isa 44:23 [li]sing [/li], O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done [it]: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into [li]sing [/li]ing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Isa 49:13 [li]sing [/li], O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into [li]sing [/li]ing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they [li]sing [/li]: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, [li]sing [/li] together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 54:1 [li]sing [/li], O barren, thou [that] didst not bear; break forth into [li]sing [/li]ing, and cry aloud, thou [that] didst not travail with child: for more [are] the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Isa 65:14 Behold, my servants shall [li]sing [/li] for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
Jer 20:13 [li]sing [/li] unto the LORD, praise ye the LORD: for he hath delivered the soul of the poor from the hand of evildoers.
Jer 31:7 For thus saith the LORD; [li]sing [/li] with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
Jer 31:12 Therefore they shall come and [li]sing [/li] in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
Jer 51:48 Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall [li]sing [/li] for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD.
Eze 27:25 The ships of Tarshish did [li]sing [/li] of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.
Hsa 2:15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall [li]sing [/li] there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
Zep 2:14 And flocks shall lie down in the midst of her, all the beasts of the nations: both the cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the upper lintels of it; [their] voice shall [li]sing [/li] in the windows; desolation [shall be] in the thresholds: for he shall uncover the cedar work.
Zep 3:14 [li]sing [/li], O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
Zec 2:10 [li]sing [/li] and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and [li]sing [/li] unto thy name.
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will [li]sing [/li] with the spirit, and I will [li]sing [/li] with the understanding also.
Hbr 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I [li]sing [/li] praise unto thee.
Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him [li]sing [/li] psalms.
Rev 15:3 And they [li]sing [/li] the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.
Praise be to our God and Father who allows us to enjoy a happy melody :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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I like music and singing (I can't do either well), but in the past couple of yesrs I have become utterly disgusted with the "pop stars" of Christiandom -- who are "living large" on money people tell themselves they are giving to God.
Wether it is a book or CD, peddling the Word of God is just that. It is wrong. Someone mentioned T & R Butler -- they even peddle a video on "Practical and entertaining teaching on the dynamics of building and training a worship team". What??? Probably a guide on how to run PowerPoint.
So long as isn't making someone money or building someone into an idol, I'll listen.
SteveW
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Then you will need to tune into the Heavenly Host SteveW! ;D :D
The intimate gratitude for God and His nature is a song of worship sung in spirit and in truth that is a gift that can not be either bought or sold.
Acts 8 : 18 However, when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was imparted through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he brought money and offered it to them 19. saying, Grant me also this power and authority, in order that anyone on whom I place my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.20 But Peter said to him, Destruction overtake your money and you, because you imagined you could obtain the free gift of God with money! 21 You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is all wrong in God's sight, it is not straightforward or right or true before God 22 So repent of this depravity and wickedness of yours and pray to the Lord that, if possible, this contriving thought and purpose of your heart may be removed and disregarded and forgiven you 23. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in a bond forged by iniquity TO FETTER SOULS.
I know for a fact that Mystery Babylon spends enormous amounts of money to upgrade and develop its praise and worship out put going as far as investing in major equipment and recording studios to promote its productions into its cell church communities also designed to FETTER SOULS.
There is no doubt that the sound of music is a very potent influence and can alter thoughts and emotions. On this we can all be in like-mind even if we have different views about praise and worship. Sound has scientifically been discovered to have powers of emotional influence that can manipulate moods and mental clarity and decision making. There is a thing called white sound that sooths the nerves and sounds like running water in a spring or fountain. Other sounds can do the opposite and call out latent emotions such as anger or rage. Not only does sound have this effect but smells too can trigger emotions. Sight can also trigger thoughts and emotions and this is why I think all senses of sight sound and smell are employed by Mystery Babylon who builds the biggest Churches and hosts the largest choirs in religion building its monuments to man's idols of his heart.
Of course this is only a personal view point that may be right or wrong but is where I am right now! :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arturus, you are right on the money with your post my sister. That the chuch of Babylon has succumbed to the lure of money and sensationalism is proof of their blindness.
I have been to churches where the music sounded more like what you would find at a rock concert. The shear volume was enough to remove any spiritual meaning. We have commercials on TV for a local "church" that has two cars crash head on in the center of the stage (read very big building)
I think this falls very neatly in what you said about sights, sounds and smells influencing carnal man. This is a far cry from the words of David.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Be still or raphah {raw-faw'} [7503] means:
1) to sink, relax, sink down, let drop, be disheartened
a) (Qal)
1) to sink down
2) to sink, drop
3) to sink, relax, abate
4) to relax, withdraw
b) (Niphal) idle (participle)
c) (Piel) to let drop
d) (Hiphil)
1) to let drop, abandon, relax, refrain, forsake
2) to let go
3) to refrain, let alone
4) to be quiet
e) (Hithpael) to show oneself slack
And "and Know" or yada` {yaw-dah'} [3045]
1) to know
a) (Qal)
1) to know
a) to know, learn to know
b) to perceive
c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
d) to discriminate, distinguish
e) to know by experience
f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
g) to consider
2) to know, be acquainted with
3) to know (a person carnally)
4) to know how, be skilful in
5) to have knowledge, be wise
b) (Niphal)
1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
2) to make oneself known
3) to be perceived
4) to be instructed
c) (Piel) to cause to know
d) (Poal) to cause to know
e) (Pual)
1) to be known
2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare
g) (Hophal) to be made known
h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself
Be still, and know that I am God: surely there is a message in these eight words that the church of Babylon has forgotten. :)
Let me mention that one such church was IRATE because a few of it's parishioners had not handed in the W2's (tax form) so that the church would know how much to collect. :(
My wife and I nearly walked out then and there. We never went back! Noisiest church I have ever been too. :(
Love, In Christ,
Darren
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Darren, we had to leave a church once cuz they wanted to see our W-2's to see how much we should tithe. We said we would just like to be visitors, and they said No, after a few weeks here, you have to become a member and members tithe!! Well, we just left. Every now and again I see the pastor in town and I just smile really big and say hi. One time I actually made him stop and shoot the breeze w/ me :P
Dear Arc: I use to "praise the Lord" in the car singing loudly in tongues, believing all the while that that was the music of angels. :D (altho I think I was in my heart w/ the knowledge I had at the time ??)
This last church that we left bcz of BT is a big, seeker, type church. Bling everywhere etc etc. They got a half hour on BET and we all were so proud and excited....a few months later he quit the deal....all the behind the scenes w/ "christian' people, the money, the business, even got to our pastor and thats saying something!!
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Darren and Arcturus,
Thank you for both posting your posts. Darren I love the Scriptures about music. Music is very Godly <smiles> Music is indeed the gateway to the soul, if it can be tapped into correctly. In fact well played music, is such that the music plays itself. Let me explain.
Imagine, being so in tuned to the music, that it takes a life of its own and seems to play itself. When I am playing, and am in tune to God, the music just lifts off the ground and takes off, not becuase of my well <coughes> great techinical ability and such, but becuase when You truly focus on God, he just seems to pop out of anything that you are doing including music. Chaotic Music is truly beautiful. I am working on one such pieace the Boulez 2nd Sonata. For those of you interested, it is the hardest piano rep out there, and becuase I asked one day, I am stuck in learning it. It has no keys or time signature. It is truly beautiful. Tying into music is mathematics. Choas thoery is a wonderful thing.
What is choas??? It is something that we have not defined the order or something that we understand as of now. That is the beauty, to know that it is an ordered system, but no order has been defined or it. So it is ordered or choatic??? Who knows, all I know is that there is Order in everything and nothing is disordered. Thank God.
I am waxing philosophical this morning, so before I work myself into a philosopical frenzy, I will quit.
Great thread by the way.
<Listens to Paul Wilbur while posting this reply>
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Darren, I just re read all those scriptures on praising and singing. I would suggest posters and lurkers to re read them also.
Whew!!! I got happy in the Lord! We ARE to praise Him, recite back to Him all of His wonderful deeds and how He redeemed us and how faithful He Is, Was and Will be....
And to SING of all His marvelous works and remind one another of His Love toward us.
Yes, it makes ME FEEL close to HIM when I praise and sing of How Good He Is. It builds my faith up to know that He Will Continue To do His marvelous work in my life!!!
Israel's capturs REQUIRED of them a SONG of Zion....Was that hard for them to do?? Were they bummed that they had to leave Zion for Babylon?? Yet they sang, while forced into slavery. I have always love Ps 137. I get such imagery out of that.
And we sang the Song of Moses. What did it sound like? Read Psalm 89 and then 90. Always remembering How God Saved Them and telling Him how they trusted Him. Even tho Israel was in & out of trouble all the time. So was David. But they knew how to praise Him.
I remember being saved a short while, and attending a lutheran church cuz it was around the corner. I was in Ann Arbor and could walk. I had just discovered Jesus and the Word and I was in love. I know of no other way to say it. I couldn't get enough. And there I was bored stiff. I didn't get why they weren't as excited as I was and so happy. Eventually I came to realize I was very charismatic by nature and belonged in a happy, praise filled church. Then after awhile like everything else, loses some luster when real life sets in. But by myself, I never lost that love & desire to praise Him. I still have that need.
I agree w/ Ray, tho, worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth is Obedience to the Word. Praising in the flesh is easier. Obeying is harder. But sometimes its the praising that gets me to obey.
This is an older thread and probably many won't even see it. But for those who do, please re read those praise and singing scriptures. They are lovely!! And HE is worthy to be praised.
Hallelujah!!! ;D
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God Bless You Gena,
I took your advice last nite, and really read those scriptures Darren has so meticulously brought together. The words were like a lovely lullaby and sweet melody.
to HE who IS WORTHY TO BE PRAISED
With much gratitude,
Lisa
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Amen Lisa. I felt compelled to say that, hoping someone would do it! Thanks. I am so glad it blessed you.
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Gena,
Amen, Amen, and Amen. That was a wonderful post. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Gena and Lisa, isn't our God and Father truly amazing. :) As you said Lisa, he IS worthy of our praise!
Gena, you wrote: I agree w/ Ray, tho, worshipping Him in Spirit and Truth is Obedience to the Word. Praising in the flesh is easier. Obeying is harder. But sometimes its the praising that gets me to obey.
I could not agree more. :) It is not man's nature to Praise anyone but oneself, but when one begins to Praise God for all that is, was and will be; then one cannot help but be transformed. The old is wiped away and the new spiritual mindset begins to grow. Like you said, it is the praising that helps you obey, because it is the physical praising of our God, that lifts our hearts and opens our spirit to him. :)
Psa 86:12 I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.
Praising God is like a warm blanket on a cold night; his warmth and love engulfs you :)
2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
Amen :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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WoooooHoooooo
This just keeps getting better.
....like a warm blanket......Oh I LOVE that visual!!!!
After reading Sandie's poem about our "Fathers" letter to us, who wouldn't want to praise Him w/ your whole heart???
Our God is an Awesome GOD He reigns from Heaven above w/ wisdom, power, and love
OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD........
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Gena, :) :)
Oh how wonderful it is to see "why" it is we REJOICE!
Praise be to God for thinking of everything!!
:)
Love to you in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren
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Dear all,
I'm sorry it took so long to get back to you on here, I haven't forgotten about you; it has been meat and I had much contemplation to do. I am not offended at anyone for what all is being said in this thread b/c we all are at different places in our walk with Him; and I just hope that I have been forgiven if I have said something out of not being able to get my points across on the prasie and worship topic like I had meant to.
I praise God in my own way and all that I know is that I praise God by privately and publically acknowledging all that HE is and has done and will do in my life; and not so much via songs, although songs are not totally gone from my heart and tongue. When I said that the denominations had a diff Jesus and God, I was simply trying to make the same point that (like Bev had stated: ...the christians are hypocritical in how they PRAISE our Jesus, but then they lie about our God ...as though He who would send us to hell forever; thus, I just don't like the hell songs...that is what I failed at getting across, I'm sorry for that!
Also, I am not saying that I never have listened and enjoyed certain christian song artists, b/c I have; God/the Holy Spirit works through lots of dif people to bring me closer to HIM. I am saying that TO ME I now find it more necessary to praise and worship Him with my obedient lifestyle. And yet there are rare times that I need to hear something uplifting, and then that helps me to refocus on Him;
( Darren, I DO NOT think that God is more pleased with me since I choose to not praise Him by physically singing as much as I try to do in the obedient lifestyle way; I did not mean to come across that way!) You are correct, and I do not discount the fact that God has used those songs of the past to get me where I am today. I just want to make sure that my P & w is acceptable to HIM and that I don't allow myself to get more into my flesh than into living the obedient life. I personally don't want the music as much as others do is all that I was trying to say. Your'e scriptures of praise were mostly from the OT and to me HE is asking in the NT for our worship to be dif than the physical singing that went on in the OT; he wants the SPIRIT of our praises to be more important than the physical praise singing.
its' late again, so good -nite
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Good morning Susan :)
You wrote:
( Darren, I DO NOT think that God is more pleased with me since I choose to not praise Him by physically singing as much as I try to do in the obedient lifestyle way; I did not mean to come across that way!) You are correct, and I do not discount the fact that God has used those songs of the past to get me where I am today. I just want to make sure that my P & w is acceptable to HIM and that I don't allow myself to get more into my flesh than into living the obedient life. I personally don't want the music as much as others do is all that I was trying to say. Your'e scriptures of praise were mostly from the OT and to me HE is asking in the NT for our worship to be dif than the physical singing that went on in the OT; he wants the SPIRIT of our praises to be more important than the physical praise singing.
Susan, are we not instructed to sing likewise with the spirit?
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Is not being Happy and Joyful in the arms of our Lord and Savior reason enogh to be happay? Let us Sing and be glad of heart.
Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Our Worship should never become so rigid that we loose sight of the God's message. I do not believe that this is a time of silence and political correctness as many would have us believe. :)
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
You are right, we should never put music in Front of God, but we should never shelve music, singing, rejoicing because of God either.
Just my two cents worth....God had you sing and enjoy singing for a reason..... :)
Love to You Sister Susane,
Your Brother,
Darren
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To All,
I choose to withdraw from this thread, it is making my heart heavy. I am a musician and of course my opionion would be tainted. Darren, thanks for quoting the NT passages.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hi everyone,
I like all kinds of music myself and singing also. I have sung in a Catholic church, where it was more like funeral music than anything else, in a Baptist church where it was just so-so to me, a small Methodist church, where I truly felt the Lord's presence, a huge Non-denomination church, that was more like a rock concert....My point being, different experiences for different people. And maybe some still hold a grudge against churches they have come out of - once they have been enlightened. So, maybe it's not the music itself, but the experience that is hard to let go of.
Rev. 5:9 And they sung A NEW SONG, saying thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev. 14:3 And they sung as it were A NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Peace to you, Lisa
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OK guys,
Obviously I am not getting my point across here ,so this will be the last post about music on this thread for me; I feel that I am being misunderstood by soem here; at last God understands that music is fie with me. I've said too much already. No offense has been taken and I hope that I have not offended any of you! :)
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Anne and Susan,
Each of us is walking alone with God. Some silently and some with music and song.
I will not condemn anyone for their walk; each is doing what they fill is best. My only intent was to show that Scriptures do not contradict, nor lose their point, regardless of which part of the Scriptures they were written.
You have not offended me in any way dear Susan, just as I hope and pray I have not offended you. :)
Love to you both in Christ,
Darren
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Darren,
You did not offend me...
Love and Blessings and Shalom in Him,
Susan
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Isn't Matt.12: 43-45 a parable? Didn't Jesus teach in parables?
Cindy
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Cindy,
Yes, Matt. 12:43-45 is a parable. It is a WARNING that returning to a past bondage from which you were once delivered results in deeper bondage. :)