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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Jay on March 23, 2007, 12:39:59 PM
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Greetings, folks -
Another one of those "nagging" questions that I have from the biblical record concerns Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son, Issac.
Why would God command Abraham to perform an act that is quite obviously against His own law? God commands against committing murder. Would not Abraham binding up his son on an altar, then slashing his throat and then burning him with fire constitute murder? If any parent ever tried this here in our legal system, there's no court in the land that would not exact punishment on that parent. Can we be more righteous than God? Can we have a keener sense of justice than He does? I seriously doubt that.
Isn't this act of placing one's child upon an altar for a sacrifice an abomination that the heathen practiced which drew forth God's condemnation? Did not God state in other places in the bible (can't remember where) that these acts that were committed by the heathen, you know, having their children burned in fire as a sacrifice to their false gods, something that God Himself has stated that such a notion never even entered His mind? If that's the case, then why would it enter into God's mind to have Abraham sacrifice his son in like manner?
Basically, I guess what I'm saying is that I am questioning both the translation and the meaning of that story in the scriptures. Is there anyone that can shed any light on this issue?
Thanks.
God Bless.
Jay
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Hi Jay,
The story of Abraham and Issac has in my belief a deep and meaningful meaning of the promise that was yet to be fullfilled.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen 22:3 ¶ And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his a@@, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the a@@; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid [it] upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here [am] I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where [is] the lamb for a burnt offering?
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 ¶ And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Here we can see the connection between the ONLY son of Abraham and the ONLY son of God. :)
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
Here we see the ram being slain as a substitute for Isaac, in remarkably the same way that the Jesus Christ the man, was slain on behalf of all mankind.
I do not believe that the moral of the story has anything to do with committing murder, because this was not Gods plan. I believe it was instead used as a prelude of the promise to come.
Well that's my take on it.
Great question.....
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Jay,
I want to add to the gross mistranslation of the King Jams in this story.
Gen 22:1 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, [here] I [am].
God did not TEMP Abraham, but rather tested him. We can learn more of this by looking at the Hebrew word translated "temp."
Temp - Hebrew for nacah {naw-saw'} [05254]
1) to test, try, prove, tempt, assay, put to the proof or test
a) (Piel)
1) to test, try
2) to attempt, assay, try
3) to test, try, prove, tempt
Test is the first meaning and God's on words spoken through his Angel gives us witness to this:
Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
Of course God already knew, so this is not the message. The truth behind God's words is that Abraham could know that God was indeed testing him, and that his faith withstood the test.
How many of us who are Fathers today, measure up as Abraham did. Not many I bet :) Could be that it is because Angels don't ask us to do things like that.
Thanks and love in Christ,
Darren
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"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." Heb. 11:17
At the time of this offering of Isaac, there was no law of Moses, there was only the promise of God to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. His wife Sarah was barren and old past her time of life. His other son Ishmael, was the son of the bondwoman Hagar which was a type of the law. The promise was through Sarah who was a type of Jerusalem which is above, which is the mother of us all and came by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please Him.
Abraham knew that the promise was made through Sarah, that's why when God told him to sacrifice his only begotten son, by faith Abraham believed God that God would provide a sacrifice. This is law verses faith, called verses chosen, death verses life, darkness verses light, etc. etc. It is an alegory showing us that the just shall live by faith.
Darren's right, God did not tempt Abraham but tested his faith as He tests our faith daily. Romans 4:22
"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." Hope this helps Jay.
In Him,
Dwight
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Thanks, Yellowstone and Dwight. I understand the part about Abraham and his only son being a type of God the Father sacrificing His only Son for the sins of the world. One thing that I thought of just a little while ago and Dwight touched on in. That being the faith that Abraham displayed which was accounted to him for righteousness. Maybe it was this God-given faith that constrained Abraham to go through with God's command BECAUSE Abraham knew that, since Isaac was the child of promise that God Himself would raise up Isaac from the dead in order to keep His promise. Then I found this scripture: Hebrews 11:17-19 - By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son], 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
But still in all, I'm thinking if it were me, I would have questioned whether or not it was really God commanding me to kill my son being that I know it is wrong to kill and certainly my spirit would recoil from such a command to kill my own beloved son and I think I would have rationalized that it can't be God telling me to commit such an atrocious act. So, its interesting how Abraham endured that ordeal.
Peace,
Jay
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Hi Jay,
What strikes me about Abraham, is that he was a very prominent figure in the OT and was often used in reference to God;
Gen 26:23 "I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not..."
Exo 4:5 "that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers, the God of Abraham..."
1Ki 18:36 "...O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel... "
Being that He was a person God used in such a way that the name Abraham would be used in reference to God throughout the scripture, this would seem to require that God would cause him to be outstanding in some way. "And he was called the friend of God..." but not this alone, as well he was shown as having the faith and the actual willingness to obey in an exrtaordinary way.
James 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
v. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
v. 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
v. 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
v. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Abraham was specially prepared to carry out what was required of him, so that he could be called "the God of Abraham" through out scripture, and used as a reference to being faithful and obedient.
So we could not follow in his footsteps unless we were specially prepared to do so like he was, I think that is why we can not imagine doing what he did.
That's the way I am seeing this.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Jay,
I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.
Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.
If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.
I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.
By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?
Tim
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Thanks for that bit of insight Kat. Surely Abraham was prepared for his mission by God and therefore anyone else would be hard-pressed to go through with such a command.
Tim, you asked a good question. How did Isaac feel about being tied to an altar knowing that his demise would be forthcoming by the hands of his own dad? Well, my guess is that Isaac must have been prepared for his role in this drama as well as Abraham was for his role, for what "normal" son would permit his dad or anyone else for that matter to tie him to an altar and slay him like a sacrificial lamb? Isaac therefore would be a type of the Son of God who submitted to His Father's plan to offer Him up as a sacrifice for sin.
I guess that since all is of God and He works His purpose through the human instrumentality, then He provides the necessary wherewithal from within to withstand the horrors that come from or is God-engineered from without. While my "gut" or my spirit assures me that its all true -- how that God engineers circumstances, created evil, etc., its still mind-boggling to me and to be quite honest, kinda scares me as well -- makes me wonder what kind of scourging He has in store for me -- "for my own good". I'm having a hard time getting past that one.
Peace,
Jay
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Hi Jay,
I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.
Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.
If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.
I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.
By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?
Tim
Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
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Hi Jay,
I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.
Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.
If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.
I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.
By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?
Tim
Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
I think I need a break for a while.
???
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Hi, Yep!!!,
I agree with Dwight, GOD had already told Abraham that he will have a son to Sarah & he will be the Father of many nations, it was his great Faith in GOD in what He had told him, so this is why I believe he had no hesitatin because he just new Issac would be spared, Well dis b my Opinion lol!,
muchLOVE!! Pera
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I've been trying to get some words out on this and just can't seem to do it, but here are some scriptures.
God sets his chosen apart. Physically then and spiritually now. Everything that is not of God must die. Maybe someone can put this in better words than I can right now. To me it is another parable. No idols. No false teaching. No carnal mind. It all must be destroyed.
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God
Deuteronomy 7
2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
1 Kings 11:2
Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
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Hi Jay,
I too struggle with verses in the old testament that make God appear like
an egomaniacal tyrant. If I thought that God was commanding me to do something
that was completely immoral. I would have to question whether it was really God, or satan deceiving me.
Satan is an excellent deceiver, in order to believe that a command is from God, I must discern if it is true to His character,
Look how many people there are today that still kill others because they think that God
told them to. If they had a better understanding of God, they would know that He
could not be telling them to do such a thing.
If God told me to murder anyone, I would say, get behind me satan.
I wish that Ray would discuss more about the terrible things that God was supposed
to have done, and commanded in the old testament.
By the way, how do you think being tied to an alter with a knife at your throat affected Isaac?
Tim
Not true. God did tell the Jews to murder many people in the OT, including women and children. In fact, he told them to kill everything that breathes.
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
I understand that Sorin.
All of those stories in the old testament which show God to be a vengeful, murdering, genocidal God, are
the very scriptures that I struggle with.
If God never changes, then what happened between the time of the old testament
and the new testament? How did the God that told his people to kill every man, woman and child,
to rip babies out of their mothers wombs, become the God that told us to love our enemy?
I must admit, I don't understand. That is why I would like someone with a deeper spiritual
understanding than I, Ray perhaps, help me to understand.
Perhaps the entire bible is a parable.
Tim
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This is an interesting thread with many good observations from Darren, Dwight, Kat, M.G. and all who posted. I am just going to add a few observations.
Abraham knew that Isaac was a miracle child born to a barren woman, a gift from God. Abraham saw first hand how God created Isaac's life, owned Isaac's life and that God could take it away and restore it once again. Abraham showed faith in the most extreme fashion, as a parent it is easier to imagine and accept our own death than it is our child's death. Abraham was willing to make the ultimate (parental) sacrifice because he had faith that God could and would restore it at the resurrection.
Let me ask a question from a different perspective, would we, do we want our children to die to the flesh and become spiritual creatures? When we share the Truths of His Word (take the Sword to them so to speak) and set an example of godliness are we not slaying our children to the world? Are we not doing this in the hope that they will lose their carnality and have it replaced by His Spirit?
As far as the destruction in the OT goes we must remember the spiritual message contained within these "atrocities" bringing to mind that Israel represents spiritual Israel, the elect who will be a part of the Lake of Fire burning out all the carnal nature of the unconverted souls.
We have gone round and round with this before, when we look at the OT scriptures that speak of destruction and look at them with the mind of man we are tempted to ask ourselves;
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Unless we look at these OT examples with spiritual rather than natural eyes we lose the true meaning;
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Destroy or destruction seems to have been translated from many original Hebrew words, I will post some of them below;
H4229
מחה
mâchâh
maw-khaw'
A primitive root; properly to stroke or rub; by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).
H7843
שׁחת
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).
H5595
ספה
sâphâh
saw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to scrape (literally to shave; but usually figuratively) together (that is, to accumulate or increase) or away (that is, to scatter, remove or ruin; intransitively to perish): - add, augment, consume, destroy, heap, join, perish, put.
H3772
כּרת
kârath
kaw-rath'
A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (that is, make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces): - be chewed, be con- [feder-] ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ([covenant]), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.
H4889
משׁחית
mashchîyth
mash-kheeth'
From H7843; destructive, that is, (as noun) destruction, literally (specifically a snare) or figuratively (corruption): - corruption, (to) destroy (-ing), destruction, trap, X utterly.
H3423
ירשׁ ירשׁ
yârash yârêsh
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (be driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.
There is more there and this word deserves study keeping in mind how through the LOF process spiritual Israel will (with Christ) totally and completely eliminate all carnal thoughts, actions and deeds from every creature. Also, that God has the power and authority to give life, form the circumstances in our lives and to take life as He wills and pleases, all according to His plan of creating immortal, incorruptable Sons and Daughters.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I'm not sure, but maybe I can put some of my rambling thoughts here.
Aren't the things that happened in the old testament a type of things in the spiritual? So if Abraham was a type of the Father, and Isaac was a type of God's Son, then Abraham's sacrifice would have been a one time deal never to be repeated again, just like Jesus was the one sacrifice for all mankind.
I don't think that God would tell us to physically kill anyone.
Also, as M.G. says,
I've been trying to get some words out on this and just can't seem to do it, but here are some scriptures.
God sets his chosen apart. Physically then and spiritually now. Everything that is not of God must die. Maybe someone can put this in better words than I can right now. To me it is another parable. No idols. No false teaching. No carnal mind. It all must be destroyed.
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God
Deuteronomy 7
2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
1 Kings 11:2
Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
All these things that God commanded to kill in the physical, we are to kill in our lives so that nothing comes before us and God. It is now in the spirit.
This is how I understand it so that I can make some sense of it all. But I have to admit, it is hard to understand.
Ursula
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For some it seems that to die to this life is a troubling thing. I too do not like the thought of death or anyone I love to leave in death. But this life is to have an experience of good and evil and then to die. We all will die.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
God is sovereign and He controls the way all will die, so if in the OT He told the Israelite to "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:" Ok that's the way they were to die.
But Israel was used as a very important type of the 'Israel of God' to come, they were the physical shadow of the spiritual Israel. There is obviously a very important analogy used here to show how God will work in Spiritual Israel. So the way God caused them to die was to teach the elect.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
That God told Israel to put all to death, so in that case you know it makes God responsible. Is God any less responsible for the death of every person that dies in every war that has ever happened, or for that matter every person that dies that ever lived. He is sovereign and He alone decides when someone shall die.
Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: v. 2 a time to be born, and a time to die;"
I do not think you will call God a murderer to His face, when you stand before Him to give account.
This life that we cling to, is only a shadow of real life, the sooner it is over the better, we just can't except that.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Well then, how can it [now] be wrong to kill anybody from a biblical point of view? I mean sure it's illegal, and you will most likely not escape man's justice, but I don't understand how Christians can be against abortion when they used to rip babies out of their mother's wombs in the OT. They can't even use their religion to say that abortion is wrong, since clearly, it isn't in the bible.
Rape isn't wrong, cutting off people's hands and feet and hanging them over the pool is not wrong [David] , neighter is killing a man so you can sleep with his wife. And David was a man after God's own heart. Yeah, an evil God. I still don't understand why Kain was punished for killing Abel, didn't he just do what God later commanded the Zionists to do?
So would I call God a murderer to his face? Seeing that he creates life, and he takes life.... I don't know, but how about, evil?
Also, the Ten Commandments thou shalt not kill was written in vain, or perhaps, it meant thou shalt not kill.... another Jew only, but who cares about the filthy Gentiles...
And you wonder why people don't like the Jews, or their God. Mel Gibson isn't such a bad guy... really, he isn't...............
Also shall mortal men be more just than God? In this case, I would have to say yes. I would never do any of those vile things.
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I've learned to recognize in my life that every attack from the evil one is an attack on the character of God for the purpose of destroying my faith.
Who are we to question God's character? Would it not be just if he wiped us all off the face of the earth. We are all guilty of sin and all have sinned. The wages of sin is death and we've all earned the death penalty. Who can stand before God and question his character?
He spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all.
What great mercy he has shown to all of us.
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Well then, how can it [now] be wrong to kill anybody from a biblical point of view?
Pro 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
I mean sure it's illegal, and you will most likely not escape man's justice, but I don't understand how Christians can be against abortion when they used to rip babies out of their mother's wombs in the OT. They can't even use their religion to say that abortion is wrong, since clearly, it isn't in the bible.
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Ecc 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
Rape isn't wrong, cutting off people's hands and feet and hanging them over the pool is not wrong [David] , neighter is killing a man so you can sleep with his wife. And David was a man after God's own heart. Yeah, an evil God. I still don't understand why Kain was punished for killing Abel, didn't he just do what God later commanded the Zionists to do?
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
Ecc 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
So would I call God a murderer to his face? Seeing that he creates life, and he takes life.... I don't know, but how about, evil?
Psa 41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Also, the Ten Commandments thou shalt not kill was written in vain, or perhaps, it meant thou shalt not kill.... another Jew only, but who cares about the filthy Gentiles...
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
And you wonder why people don't like the Jews, or their God. Mel Gibson isn't such a bad guy... really, he isn't...............
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodlylusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Also shall mortal men be more just than God? In this case, I would have to say yes. I would never do any of those vile things.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
Job 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
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For some it seems that to die to this life is a troubling thing. I too do not like the thought of death or anyone I love to leave in death. But this life is to have an experience of good and evil and then to die. We all will die.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
God is sovereign and He controls the way all will die, so if in the OT He told the Israelite to "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:" Ok that's the way they were to die.
But Israel was used as a very important type of the 'Israel of God' to come, they were the physical shadow of the spiritual Israel. There is obviously a very important analogy used here to show how God will work in Spiritual Israel. So the way God caused them to die was to teach the elect.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
That God told Israel to put all to death, so in that case you know it makes God responsible. Is God any less responsible for the death of every person that dies in every war that has ever happened, or for that matter every person that dies that ever lived. He is sovereign and He alone decides when someone shall die.
Ecc 3:1 "To every thing there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heavens: v. 2 a time to be born, and a time to die;"
I do not think you will call God a murderer to His face, when you stand before Him to give account.
This life that we cling to, is only a shadow of real life, the sooner it is over the better, we just can't except that.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
Thank you for that thoughtful reply. You have the right attitude concerning things to which we have no answers.
The things that God commanded His people to do in the old testament were immoral by my standards.
Genocide is immoral by any rational person's standards. I could not
justify doing anything like that even if I thought that God ordered it. Because I could not be certain that He did.
My biggest problem is that I do not like thinking that my God could be like that. That is why I keep looking
for a better understanding of the torah.
I have reconciled within myself, that in the eyes of God, what he commanded was not a bad thing because He alone knew
that all of these people being killed were merely moving from one life to another. A better life in fact.
But you have to admit, it had to create a lot of confusion with the Hebrews, for God to command his people, "thou shall not kill"
or murder, and then tell them to kill every man, woman and child.
It has also created a lot of confusion ever since. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed
since the time of Christ, supposedly in His name, because they believe that God has shown that He approves of killing
in His name. Mostly because of what happened in the bible. The bible that is supposed to teach morals.
I wish that I had your unconditional acceptance of God's methods Kat.
I pray that God has mercy on me that I don't.
Blessings on you,
Tim
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Hello Tim
In case you missed it. there is an e-mail response from Ray today titled Free Will. The writer gives an analogy that I think could encourage you to see that with God the end really does justify the means!...even if we do not believe it and when we go against it as we all do and have to in the process of becoming like His Son.
peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Great scriptures Joe.
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Before I found Ray and his papers I learned that there was no free will and we don't choose God, but he chooses us. He chooses who will be saved. The problem I had was that I still believed that there was a hell. I believed that some would be eternally separated from God in outer darkness.
The question I wrestled with is "How is that just?" How could God be just and choose some and not others when we are all equally guilty of sin and all the same? Where is the justice in that?
I was tempted to say I didn't want to follow a God like that. I was tempted to assassinate God's character. It was all I could do to hold onto my faith and believe that God's character was good and there had to be another answer.
There was another answer and I found it here. There is no hell and all are saved.
When I wrestle with questions like that I know there must be another answer. God's character is good and I just don't know the answer yet. I wrestle in front of God with my questions and put them there and wait for an answer. I don't think God minds my questions. I've been asking him questions since I was 4 years old. When I feel strong temptation to question his character I go over all the things that I know are true about him and I don't listen to the lies that are being screamed at me through my thoughts.
Ephesians 6:11-13
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
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Joe,
Great scripture, He speaks for us.
Amen
Sandie
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Last night I was really struggling, then I thought people die everyday in some way or another.
We all die some sooner than others.
Who am I to question God and the means death takes place.
My brother was burned in a house fire but yet he survived for 8 months.
His Kidneys gave out and he was on dialysis 3 times a week.
He was sick of dialysis and sick of living with his body scarred and sore.
He told us his family, he was a bother and a burden to everyone he wished he could just die.
The next day he died, What I am saying is I believe God knows our future and he was being kind.
He spared him from all the pain by letting him die.
What do you all believe does this sound like God? to me it did.
Sad as it was/is he was no longer in extreme pain.
God knows the future and sometimes death is better than living.
I am sorry if this seems morbid.
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As to the purpose of Abrahams "test". God already KNEW Abraham would pass the test. What was important was that ABRAHAM should KNOW he would pass the test. I suppose there are many possible reasons why it was important. Someone more clever than I am could probably come up with a bunch..
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As to the purpose of Abrahams "test". God already KNEW Abraham would pass the test. What was important was that ABRAHAM should KNOW he would pass the test. I suppose there are many possible reasons why it was important. Someone more clever than I am could probably come up with a bunch..
I don't know Seeker1,
I thought that was a pretty clever analysis. ;D
Tim
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I can't help but wonder if God clued Isaac in that it was just a test. :)
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If your attitude is one of total trust in God and the sovereingty and overall goodness etc...then Isaac would have trusted Him period....Though he slay me Yet will I serve Him!
wasn't Isaac in his 40's and surely could've gotten away had he wanted..But he TRUSTED no matter what, I get killed or I don't get killed, God in Whom I trust will take care of me.
David didn't kill for the fun of it. War is a little different. Those little babies grew up to be staunch enemies. Those little babies will be in the "All in All". I will not have a haughty spirit that "God may be like that, but I am not". Pride usually goes before a fall. We don't know anything as far as knowing the mind of God. And we know a lot more than most folks.
M.G. has had more to go through than most should have to, and here she is trusting the Lord in her life. That blesses me. That is the attitude I want.
No, no one is gonna look God in the face and call Him a liar or a murderer. This experience of evil we call "life" isn't our life. When we are "all in all" is when we will start living!! And we don't know ALL things yet. Who knows the Mind of Christ??
Humility in the face of the Almighty, not worthy of His love or attention, amazed that I have it anyway. Whew! Fall down & worship Him now. He is worthy of our love and respect.
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It is my understanding that besides being a test of Abraham's Faith, it was a foreshadow that God would sacrifice His son 2000 years later.
Also, didn't these events occur on the same mount?
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Why would anyone want to find fault with God, in what He caused to OT Israel or in anything else? Besides the command to take lives in war, there are many commands that someone be "put to death."
Exo 21:12 "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death.
Exo 21:15 "And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
Exo 21:17 "And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
Exo 22:18 "You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
Nah 1:2 "...Jehovah takes vengeance against His foes, and He keeps wrath against His enemies."
And there are many more of these commands.
I realize that it is hard to feel comfort in a God that 'seems' so harsh. But maybe we don't look at this the same way that God does, He is perfect in all He does. Why find fault with God about something if you don't understand it.
Psa 19:9 "The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring forever; the judgments of Jehovah are true and righteous altogether,"
Psa 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever."
This life is a precious gift, and a long life is a blessing. But this life in the flesh is a beginning, just the shadow of what is to come. If you know the Truth, you can look beyond this present life in the flesh. I do not think of it as good when someones life is cut short, but neither do I feel it is the worse thing. I do not feel the need to question why God causes people to die when they do.
Pro 3:1 "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commandments;
v. 2 for they shall add length of days, and long life, and peace to you."
This life is so short that it's called a vapor, why is there concern over the amount of years in this world, when there is so much hardship and sufferings.
Jam 4:14 who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.
I do not see the reason to think God is wrong in the way He has done anything, I think He knows what is best and am just thankful for all He is and does.
Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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SORIN If you view everything in light of our current historical teachings then your complaints have validity. When you look at events in their proper historical context then you may reach different conclusions. For example archeologists have unearthed many buried urns containing the remains of infants that were sacrificed by one of the groups that the Jews were told to exterminate. The infants were sacrificed in hideous ways, and not just a few here and there but many. Some groups had vile despicable practices that God did not want the Jews to pick up. If you think about it the Jews had a bad habit of picking up evil practices from other groups. Also it is quite possible that some groups were hopelessly infected with disease. Just because we don't know why a particular group was targeted does not mean that there was no good reason.
God was creating a very select people for a very specific reason. Over the course of 1500 years He hammered them into a distinct group of people with a distinct history for His own purposes.
Perhaps you recall when the Spaniards came to South America in search of gold. Cortez got lots of gold but he destroyed the Aztecs anyways. Seems kind of stupid to kill the very people you need in order to get MORE gold. I asked my school teacher about this and he had no answer. My teacher was under the impression, [because he was miseducated] that the Aztecs were peaceful fun-loving happy natives. Nothing could be further from the truth. They thought nothing of slaughtering 10,000 captives in religious sacrifice. They routinely killed their own people as well. One of their favorite sports involved a sort of ball game using a severed human head. Their other sports games involved the killing of the losing team. Cortez was horrified by what he saw and destroyed their culture of death. Bet you weren't told that in history class!! The same principle applies to many other historical events that seem strange or repellant. Cults that had strange and gruesome sexual practices are likewise seldom mentioned.
In the last 100 years or so the history taught here in America has had one overarching goal, and that is to twist, distort and re-write the record. Why? From my perspective it is done to exaggerate and magnify all the sins of Western culture and Christianity in particular. The sins of the rest of the world are assumed not to exist.
In my own brief life of 52 years I have seen massive distortion of historical fact, and it all tends to run in the same direction. I got so sick of it that I bought some old history books just so my prodgeny would have some idea of what the "hell" has been happening in the last few generations. After being educated in the "Publik Skools" my own children had the most amazing and preposterous ideas about what the US was like when I grew up in the 50's and 60's. Needless to say we help pay for the grandkids to attend private school.
By the way, the very same people who are distorting history are the same ones who push abortion and infanticide. 44 million dead babies in the last 30 years and you somehow have the idea that we live in a "Better" and more humane society than in Biblical times? Like poking holes in the skull of a nearly born infant and sucking out the brains so that the skull can be crushed, to facilitate easier extraction of the mutilated corpse... Every age {as in spirit of the age} imagines that it is better than the one that preceded it...
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Whew, Seeker, that was hard to read this Sunday morning. But very well said.
I have hung on to some "old" reading books from the Sally, Dick, and Jane era. It is truly amazing.
These books have stories that do feature a mom and dad in the home. They have a lot of stories about character, and lots of patriotic type stories-Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, pioneers, inventors, that type of thing.
What I teach from today is very different. Every imaginable combination of a "family". Not ONE story of our history. Not one story w/ a remotely favorable slant on America. I only have about 6 of the older books left. I wish I had a whole set for the whole class at a time.
Believe it or not, some teachers have held on to entire sets and use them periodically for the "good" stories.
Anyhow, it is what it is.......
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Hi seeker1,
Sometimes a reality check is neseccary. You echo what Ray says about the conditions of the world.
I have pulled this out of his "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!" paper.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm --------------------------
If Jesus were to come to America today and preach His Gospel Message, little would have changed except for one prophesied difference. Everything has gotten even worse than it was 2000 years ago.
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).
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Only when Jesus Christ comes and rules with a rod of iron will these atrocious things be forcefully stopped.
Rev 19:15 "And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I've learned to recognize in my life that every attack from the evil one is an attack on the character of God for the purpose of destroying my faith.
Who are we to question God's character? Would it not be just if he wiped us all off the face of the earth. We are all guilty of sin and all have sinned. The wages of sin is death and we've all earned the death penalty. Who can stand before God and question his character?
He spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all.
What great mercy he has shown to all of us.
"Rape In The Bible
Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible.
So grab your Bibles and follow along as I show you all the nasty rapes that your priests and preachers don't want to tell you about. Note that in many places in the Bible there are references to "taking a wife". Don't be fooled into thinking that these were voluntary marriages. This first quote clearly shows that murder and force were used to "take" these wives.
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick ******** killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
8] Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man [lucky guys], Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)"
Oh, but I'm the "evil one" why, 'cause such evil acts bother me, that's why I'm evil?
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Well then, how can it [now] be wrong to kill anybody from a biblical point of view?
Pro 26:16 The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason.
Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
I mean sure it's illegal, and you will most likely not escape man's justice, but I don't understand how Christians can be against abortion when they used to rip babies out of their mother's wombs in the OT. They can't even use their religion to say that abortion is wrong, since clearly, it isn't in the bible.
Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Ecc 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
Rape isn't wrong, cutting off people's hands and feet and hanging them over the pool is not wrong [David] , neighter is killing a man so you can sleep with his wife. And David was a man after God's own heart. Yeah, an evil God. I still don't understand why Kain was punished for killing Abel, didn't he just do what God later commanded the Zionists to do?
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
Ecc 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
So would I call God a murderer to his face? Seeing that he creates life, and he takes life.... I don't know, but how about, evil?
Psa 41:5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
Also, the Ten Commandments thou shalt not kill was written in vain, or perhaps, it meant thou shalt not kill.... another Jew only, but who cares about the filthy Gentiles...
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
And you wonder why people don't like the Jews, or their God. Mel Gibson isn't such a bad guy... really, he isn't...............
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodlylusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Also shall mortal men be more just than God? In this case, I would have to say yes. I would never do any of those vile things.
Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
Job 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Oh, yeah, like David is one to talk. Atleast I never killed anybody to sleep with his wife, nor have I cut off anybody's hands and feet and hung them from trees. ::)
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Sorin,
I cannot even imagine the hidden message behind God's words. The meaning is of course, not for me to know at this time. All I can say, is that I am not aware of any such words of rape anywhere following the life of Christ. ( I might be wrong )
Perhaps Kat or one of the more enlightened amongst us here can give meaning to your post.
It is biblical text's like this that open my heart, spirit and mind up to the words of Paul in Romans 1:20.
Everything we need to know of God has been made available in creation so that we have no excuse. It's a very good thing that no one in the bible by the will of God, wrote: "the Scriptures contain everything you need to learn of God so that YOU have no excuse!!!"
This was never written, and I wonder why? :) My puny little mind cannot get around some of the simplest poertions of the Bible fully. :)
Very interesting Post and I look forward to hearing some of the more enlighning responses.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Seeker, you make a valid point about the killings of the wicked ones. But it's the forcible rapes and slavery that is unjustifiable in the bible.
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Sorin,
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1Co 10:11 KJV)
It happened to them for ensamples, for our admonition (not because they were the right thing to do or because God says it's right to rape (do you really believe that?)):
Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; (Eze 20:24-25 KJV)
And finally, God sees the beginning AND the end, and all will be balanced because God is JUST:
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them. (Jer 32:42 KJV)
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Sorin, you are bent on bringing out every evil you can find in the OT and there are many as you have shown some of them.
Nobody is going to deny that there was every evil imaginable, since the creation of the world.
Where we differ I believe, is that you desire to accuse God as being wrong and unjust for not putting an end to it.
Well since He is the cause of all things, and this is His plan for this part of the development of His creation and there have already been many scriptures that show this is all of God. What do you hope to accomplish by continually blaming God.
You don't like the way He is doing things, OK. But at least you know the Truth of the matter, that it is a for a grand purpose, that's more than most know.
All I can say is you need to move your focus to something less negative, you should have proved to yourself well enough by now, that there is a lot of evil that was done in this world, and you can't change anything. Try looking into scripture that show the mercy and goodness of God for a change.
I just can't see any point in your continuing to bring this subject up, if you are trying to sway us from our love of God, it's not going to work.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat