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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on November 10, 2013, 08:36:41 PM

Title: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 10, 2013, 08:36:41 PM: Its amazing to me the deception that seems to be everywhere, I hate how truth is distorted with every turn I take. Sometimes I think I hate myself for not being able to overcome even my own iniquities.

Truth is a rarity in this life, tell me, after a lifetime does one even have ( five ) percent of the truth at death ? When truth does come there is always someone casting doubt concerning truth as to persuade against it with persuasive arguments.

The government lies to me, religious leaders lie to me, even members of my own family lies to me too. I watch the evening news and all I see is madness and wickedness everywhere.

What sickens me the most is I'm apart of it all too, are my hands clean? Am I without iniquities ? Do I live a righteous life ? Who am I that God should be mindful of ? Death is what I deserve for the wages of sin is death and I'm a sinner.

Maybe I should have a few beers tonight and forget about life for a while, I have read the lake of fire series and I know inwardly I'm going to learn the ways of God either here and now or there and then and the choice is not even mind to make.

I want to say something to God about that but I will place my finger over my lip for I am only a man and cannot direct my own steps, I guess its better that way at least I can only be held accountable and not responsible for my actions.

OK I'm angry and venting because I'm helpless to change one thing about me, see, now I have to trust God completely so guess its that beast within me always trying to run the show. May death come to the beast tonight.

I just want to be real, I want to put aside my foolish pride that's says I have to be right, I have to be the best the smartest well the truth is I'm not, the real truth is I'm the least of all of you here there is nothing glamorous about me at all I'm nothing. That's how it is.

But at the end of the day I thank God because God is everything to me God is great God is loving and its God who is going to save a wreck like me a nobody like me. OK I'm done venting. Thank you for putting up with a fool like me. God bless you all.

Love and peace to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 10, 2013, 10:45:33 PM: I'd vent along-side you, but I think I understand that all those people truly believe what they say. It'll all be sorted out in the end, and nothing but love and forgiveness will remain. I hope for just a little of that now, but if that doesn't work maybe the beers would help a bit.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 11, 2013, 12:31:26 AM: Quote from: Rick on November 10, 2013, 08:36:41 PM
Its amazing to me the deception that seems to be everywhere, I hate how truth is distorted with every turn I take. Sometimes I think I hate myself for not being able to overcome even my own iniquities.

Truth is a rarity in this life, tell me, after a lifetime does one even have ( five ) percent of the truth at death ? When truth does come there is always someone casting doubt concerning truth as to persuade against it with persuasive arguments.

The government lies to me, religious leaders lie to me, even members of my own family lies to me too. I watch the evening news and all I see is madness and wickedness everywhere.

What sickens me the most is I'm apart of it all too, are my hands clean? Am I without iniquities ? Do I live a righteous life ? Who am I that God should be mindful of ? Death is what I deserve for the wages of sin is death and I'm a sinner.

Maybe I should have a few beers tonight and forget about life for a while, I have read the lake of fire series and I know inwardly I'm going to learn the ways of God either here and now or there and then and the choice is not even mind to make.

I want to say something to God about that but I will place my finger over my lip for I am only a man and cannot direct my own steps, I guess its better that way at least I can only be held accountable and not responsible for my actions.

OK I'm angry and venting because I'm helpless to change one thing about me, see, now I have to trust God completely so guess its that beast within me always trying to run the show. May death come to the beast tonight.

I just want to be real, I want to put aside my foolish pride that's says I have to be right, I have to be the best the smartest well the truth is I'm not, the real truth is I'm the least of all of you here there is nothing glamorous about me at all I'm nothing. That's how it is.

But at the end of the day I thank God because God is everything to me God is great God is loving and its God who is going to save a wreck like me a nobody like me. OK I'm done venting. Thank you for putting up with a fool like me. God bless you all.

Love and peace to all.

Vent? Don't mind if I do!

You sure you're the least of all of us? Look a little further down, you'll find me right below you!

I'm not a beer kind of guy though, i'm not much into wine either. I guess i'll just have some water or a nice cold soda!
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 11, 2013, 12:39:49 AM: Let me just toss this in here before I slink away...is it always the "lies" that matter? Is it also that people don't follow their own "truths". You might expand that to these others you mentioned.

Just an example: Eternal Torment and Free-will are "lies". But when you say "Jesus is the Savior of the World", yet don't believe He saves the world you are a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on November 11, 2013, 01:41:45 AM: I can't say I vent over such things or get frustrated. It would be a lack of trusting in God for His provision if I did. Your life and the world around may look a mess but it doesn't change the fact that God is still in charge. I just keep reading Ray's material and rejoice in the truth as I discover it. I know God is going to put it all right so I rejoice in that. Even where I fall over I know God will lift me up again and I will learn. God will set us free in His time so trust in Him. His Spirit reveals the truth and it matters not what others say with there wise arguments. The truth sets you free and you know it when you hear it.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice.
Php 4:5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand;
Php 4:6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
Php 4:7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

We need to trust in Him and forget about looking at our own strength as it will fail but He can't and He will do all His will not just some or most but all.

Rhys
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: dodrill on November 11, 2013, 02:33:32 AM: Good vent Rick
I feel this way sometimes too - illusion, delusion - all of it - it is the nature of this world - and men try hard to keep it this way
I guess when we think of spiritual things - we are thinking of another world - and we are at complete odds with all around us
I'm learning not to fight it - it is what it is - this world - this experience :)

I like this verse

John 18:36 - Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Stacey on November 11, 2013, 04:32:21 AM: Hi Rick,

Almost everything you said sounded like something I would say. Seriously.

However, if you want to take the least amongst us trophy home, you are behind in points. :)

Enjoyed your vent friend, hang tight, it gets worse before it gets better.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on November 11, 2013, 08:46:59 AM: It's all part of the plan.

I think most of us see the injustice in this world. But try not to judge God. He knows what He's doing.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 11, 2013, 10:46:07 AM: Rick, we are all wrenched and nobodies, that's part of His plan to call the "base things" so nobody can boost. But actually we need to have this miserable experience of carnal lust and desires, we have to be a part of it to really know it, to come out of it and then we all have to sink to the depths of despair because we are in it. Isn't it all part of our training, to be prepared to rule with Christ. To be able to really help others we need to know what they have been dealing with from our own experience in it.

Yes it is hard dealing with or even just witnessing all the corruption and dishonesty that fills this world, but it is something we all need first hand experience with to understand and feel it's real detrimental effects. I believe this life of misery was actually necessary for the very Son of God in order to "learn obedience," by actually experiencing it. He learned from first hand experience what it was like to deal with corruption and wickedness the same as we do, but without ever sinning because of it. Yes I believe it was necessary even for Him so to really be able to fully sympathize with the misery that we actually experience every day in this world.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
v. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
v. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on November 11, 2013, 04:06:57 PM: Quote from: Rhys on November 11, 2013, 01:41:45 AM
I can't say I vent over such things or get frustrated. It would be a lack of trusting in God for His provision if I did. Your life and the world around may look a mess but it doesn't change the fact that God is still in charge. I just keep reading Ray's material and rejoice in the truth as I discover it. I know God is going to put it all right so I rejoice in that.

Absolutely!! I've got an inkling of some things that are coming down the road in our near future. In and of myself I wouldn't want to get out of bed in the morning if I had to face the world and what is coming on my own. Fact of the matter is that God himself has decreed that the world is in the mess that it is right now and as we read the scriptures we know that everything is going according to God's plan.

As long as the Father remains on the throne of the universe all will be well. We know from the scriptures that all will end well for all of God's creation. We just have to trust that God knows what He is doing and all the lies, hypocrisy and wickedness is where the world needs to be right now. Christ has said that he will never leave us or forsake us. And if he is for us then who can be against us? Doesn't mean that it's going to be easy by any stretch of the imagination. God knows what He is doing and I trust him. It is enough.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 11, 2013, 11:28:07 PM: Hello to all and thanks for your response

Hi Dave, I never witness to anyone concerning God because I understand what most people believe about God, like most are going to hell and we all have free will, so when anyone ask me what I think about God I never tell them the truths I have learned here at B.T. but rather say you should checkout this web site L ray Smith exposing those who contradict and always say read the lake of fire series and let me know what you think.

I always enjoy the positive feed back I get from people I mention the site to and I know this site can give these people a much better understanding than I can. I remember reading something Ray had said about people who come to this site and learn a few truths then want to take their pastor on and Ray said they will eat you alive so I don’t witness I let Ray do that its better that way.

To lilitalienboil16 and Stacey

Both of your responses are awesome because 16 had said Look a little further down and I like how Stacey says it ( if you want to take the least amongst us trophy home ) I just want you both to know how much that means to me as I perceive you two have been where I am now. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Rhys,

I understand what your saying to me but I’m not there where you are at this time but I do appreciate you comment very much as your words let me know one day I won’t vent over such things either but I know that won’t happen until Gods time for me. Thanks again Rhys much appreciated.

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your response and yes I will not judge God over these things, I do understand they are there for my learning and understanding. Please don’t laugh at me but I’m not sure yet what God wants me to see in all these things. I know all is of God but I don’t understand all of what God is doing except that God knows best and I don’t .

To Kat

I always appreciate all your responses to my threads as well as my pm to you, the wisdom you share with me always warms my heart and leaves me with a peaceful easiness that lets me know I’m on the right road . Thanks again Kat for all your help.

Hayley and Arion, Thank you both also for your responses and I would like to say that no response is a wasted response for with each one I do learn something new and that’s what being here is about.

Thank you all and may peace and love follow you all each and every day. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Ian 155 on November 12, 2013, 04:22:24 AM: I've tried that venting bit Rick - your stone is being removed ..... so rejoice, some call it Independence day Im told and this can happen while days are still dark or according to Acts 2 early in the morning

John 20 - Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

Ian
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: HoneyLamb56 on November 12, 2013, 12:32:29 PM: It's encouraging to know that we're all on the same path but some are further ahead and have already encountered the obstacles that slow us down. Thank you all that I can be lifted up from what you have to say whether it's venting, praise or words of encoursagment.

Diane
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on November 12, 2013, 02:14:04 PM: Quote
Maybe I should have a few beers tonight and forget about life for a while, I have read the lake of fire series and I know inwardly I'm going to learn the ways of God either here and now or there and then and the choice is not even mind to make.

I tried a beer over the weekend and I didn't like it! Actually, it seems that post BT, the beast within me is getting more active. Formerly, I worked hard at being a Christian, I had an image to project. I had to be different from those who were not saved. Now I see that I am not different, I am as corrupt as this corrupt world, as debased as the next person. And I can't even choose to be different even if I tried. I've given up trying. :( Its freeing in a way, but at times I feel that I'm just being carried away on the tide of humanity and its frightening - like getting lost. And I have to remind myself that God has his eye on me and He will not loose me, just as He will everybody.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 12, 2013, 03:46:58 PM: I think the free'ing revelation in seeing yourself as the beast within is that you no longer think you're better than everyone else. You realize that you're apart of the human condition, the sickness that makes all humanity morally void. It opens up a whole new perspective on the world, your neighbor, your brother and sister, your father and mother, your children, your loved ones and your enemies. There is not one righteousness, there is none good save God. Salvation is not a thing of works earned by one or another but rather a free gift through the another free gift known as faith. It isnt even our faith either, its the faith of the Son in us.

This evil experience is indeed humbling, it hurts when you realize you're absolutely useless against the beast. The beast was given power over the saints to overcome them! There is nothing you can do to defeat the beast, he has power over you by the divine wisdom of God foreordained before the world began. Christ will eventually destroy the beast completely but it takes time. Godly characteristics take time to develop. Patients is something that can only exist if you are WAITING. Waiting by definition occurs through a period of time. Longsuffering! Whats worse is when the beast takes full reign and indulges in the carnal flesh convincing you to embrace its lust. That's the worst because then you are completely given to the ways of the flesh.

We are not without hope though. The beauty of it all is the transforming of humanity into His image. Humanity will become apart of the family of God. We will see Him as He is because we will be like Him. I think maybe that's why we have such a hard time understanding God, Jesus, Lord, Father, One, Greater than etc.. because we are not like Him yet so we do not see Him as He is. All this is absolutely necessary though if we want to be children of God, sons and daughters possessing immortality. Who knows what the future holds beyond that point. Paul said that no eye has seen or ear heard, nor entered the heart of man the things God has waiting for us.

If only we could imagine what is yet to come, I can't even began to glimpse what a marvelous existence awaits us beyond these broken bodies.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 12, 2013, 05:14:04 PM: Hi loretta,

We are all right there with you. Paul wrote eloquently about that very thing of being trapped in this beastly "body of death" is how he put it.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Before we were content being the beast, maybe we even embraced our beast before. But now we do not like it one bit, yet we continue to be aware of it. We have to learn that WE can not fight it and expect to win... And so what conclusion did Paul come to?

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

So we have real hope from the Spirit of Jesus Christ working in us. We need to keep the right attitude and take one day at a time and God WILL give us victories.

1Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 12, 2013, 11:41:55 PM: I cannot thank you all enough for your responses as I see I'm not going through something unique or foreign in my walk with God but rather what I'm experiencing is common to believers the world over.

I was beginning to think there is something wrong with me, you know I praise God, talk to God then five minutes later find myself sinning, I just don't get it or understand it. I been looking at this thing called pride lately and I'm seeing it as a most hurtful thing, I find pride is such a deception.

You know from early youth up I'm told to have pride in myself, pride in my accomplishments, pride pride, pride, well you know this world can keep its pride for with it I can not be real. pride is like makeup its just a deceptive mask to wear so no one really knows who I am.

I guess the only pride worth having is pride in God and God only. I'm so glad I did this thread because I learned so much from all of your responses I really have and its awesome to learn I'm no different no better than any other person on earth, there now maybe that's what God wants me to see.

Loretta I thank you for your reply and I love how you coined it when you said ( I worked hard at being a Christian, I had an image to project ) Lol, looks like we are going through the same thing sister but now I remember an old saying shame the devil tell the truth.

I am thankful to God for leading me to B.T. and I thank all of you for being here and for all your responses too.

Love and peace to all of you.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on November 13, 2013, 08:08:54 AM: I have experienced the same inability and frustration. How are we to square our experience with 1 Peter 2:11-12

1 Peter 2:11-12; 15-16:

11 Dear friends, I urge you as aliens and temporary residents NOT TO GIVE IN TO THE DESIRES OF YOUR OLD NATURE, WHICH KEEP WARRING AGAINST YOU; 12 but to live such good lives among the pagans that even though they now speak against you as evil-doers, they will, as a result of seeing your good actions, give glory to God on the Day of his coming.
15 FOR IT IS GOD’S WILL that YOUR DOING GOOD should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 SUBMIT AS PEOPLE WHO ARE FREE, but not letting your freedom serve as an excuse for evil; rather, submit as God’s slaves.

We are not to give in to the desires of our OLD NATURE (we have now a new nature), we are not to let our freedom serve as an excuse for evil. I heard a self-appointed false Christ say that since ALL OUR SINS have been forgiven, we can do whatever our flesh pulls us to do. The sin is no more. In fact, he claims that Jesus has destroyed Satan, that he no longer EXISTS! I don't believe this of course.

Maybe the answer is in 1 Peter 2:1-2! : Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice, of all deceit, hypocrisy and envy, and of all the ways there are of speaking against people; 2 AND BE LIKE NEWBORN BABIES, THIRSTY FOR THE PURE MILK OF THE WORD; SO THAT BY IT, YOU MAY GROW UP INTO DELIVERANCE. 3 For you have tasted that Adonai is good.

"Growing up into deliverance". Growing up is a process; it takes time and lots of mistakes. A newborn baby grows up under the care of a loving parent that looks after him, picks him up when the baby has fallen, that wipes his tears and soothes his wounds, and so on and so forth. Our Heavenly Father is doing the same with us, I'm sure. We have tasted Adonai, and we know that He is good (Psalm 34.9: Taste, and see that Adonai is good. How blessed are those who take refuge in him!)

Roger
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: santgem on November 13, 2013, 09:39:04 AM: GOD CREATES AND USES EVIL FOR GOOD!
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rene on November 13, 2013, 02:59:21 PM: Quote from: Rick on November 12, 2013, 11:41:55 PM

You know from early youth up I'm told to have pride in myself, pride in my accomplishments, pride pride, pride, well you know this world can keep its pride for with it I can not be real.

Yes, the world certainly promotes a prideful attitude, however, God's word teaches us to be humble.

Proverb 16:18 - "Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before stumbling."

James 4:10 - "Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you."

1Peter 5:6 - "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time."

Jesus is the way! 8)

René
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: se7en on November 13, 2013, 05:22:50 PM: I'm going to restate Santgem's post....

GOD CREATES AND USES EVIL FOR GOOD!

He is using "all of this" for the salvation of all. Nothing is wasted. It's all necessary to save every last one of us. *does tippy-toe happy dance*
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 13, 2013, 09:11:04 PM: Theophilus

The question you asked me is a question I now believe many believers probably been asking for two thousand years, ( How are we to square our experience with 1 Peter 2:11-12 )

I’m not sure how one squares this with Peter 2: 11- 2 ) I come to understand that I have a will that is subjected to Gods will, I read many scriptures in the new testament that seems to suggest that the believer is to conquer their sin issue. Now I found in my life if I try to conquer a particular sin I end up doing that sin even more.
But what am I saying to God when I try to conquer any sin in my life ? Oh just sit there Lord and let me show you how I can conquer my sins, but then how do I square away with Rom 8: 20 -22

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

There are so many things I don’t understand but this I do believe , I read somewhere in the lake of fire where Ray said one will want to stop sinning long before they do stop sinning.

I’m apart of God’s creation just like any other one , I don’t call the shots I ‘m not a sinner because I sin but rather I sin because I’m a sinner. Sinning comes so natural by nature but the difference for me is I never saw myself as a sinner where as now I do.

So now I see I’m a sinner and tried to stop sinning but the more I try to stop sinning the more I sin so what should I say to this? Maybe God wants me to see I’m a sinner and God wants me to stop sinning on my own but I discovered I can not stop on my own.

So I conclude when I no longer sin its ( A ) I’m dead and can no longer sin or ( B ) God stops me from sinning by His willing me not to sin. When I do stop sinning I know it will only be by the grace of God I stop sinning and no other way.

P.S. I’m still learning but learning from a nature I was given by God which is stated in Rom 8: 20 -22 . He’s the potter I’m the pot, God help me is all I can say, I’m at God’s mercy

Thank you for your question as it got me thinking.

Love and peace to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on November 15, 2013, 11:15:03 AM: So now I see I’m a sinner and tried to stop sinning but the more I try to stop sinning the more I sin so what should I say to this? Maybe God wants me to see I’m a sinner and God wants me to stop sinning on my own but I discovered I can not stop on my own.

All people including Christians have a beast within themselves sitting on the throne of our hearts. That beast indeed claims that it is a 'god' with the power of it's free will that everyone thinks that they have. That is the one thing that people have in common with each other and all religions and even atheists believe that they have. They think they have free will and free moral agency even though the scriptures tell us it isn't so. This is certainly an idol of the heart we are all born with, one of the most difficult to overcome and indeed can't be overcome at all unless God gives us the power to do so. Even to see this beast takes spiritual vision that only God can give.

That is why our primary battle isn't an outward one against other nations, peoples, politicians, moral depravity, ect, ect, ect. It's an internal battle against the beast who doesn't want to be dethroned. Interesting thing though is you ask a Christian if they want to live an obedient life and if they want to quit sinning [insert the particular sin that grabs them more than others] and of course they will say that they want to overcome this anchor in their lives that they know isn't pleasing to God.

Ask them if they want to overcome it and want to be obedient and they say yes. Then ask them what happened to their 'free will' and then they are silenced. Paul describes this battle of all battles in Romans 7. Oh yes, we all have a will to be sure but it's anything but free. We aren't free until Christ makes us free and it happens in his way and his timing and not our own. Indeed as Ray has taught we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The focus is on the fear and trembling because if God doesn't do it [the overcoming] in us it isn't going to get done. I am mindful of this every day. Regardless...God has a timetable for each and every one of us and not even our own bumbling and foul ups can change that time table one iota. You, I, all of us are right where God wants us to be right now at this point in time. To me, that is pretty encouraging.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 15, 2013, 11:22:48 PM: Surely we have some victories, don't we?

Do we walk in the spirit sometimes? Does not the scriptures say that if we walk in the spirit we will not gratify the sinful nature?

There are some sins that I seem powerless to get over. But I DO want to become victorious. And I can see that I have changed and I did obey in some other areas and that gave me joy even though I fail in this other area.

Surely our struggles teach us deep lessons. Humble us. I know God loves humility in His people.

I just don't believe it is right to have a defeatist attitude. When I find one in me at times, I repent of it. Surely the joy of the Lord can give us strength.

Don't give up. This is not beastly to have an attitude of obedience. I don't want to be the one who buries his one talent in the ground and does nothing.

Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 16, 2013, 06:36:34 PM: I believe as God has taught through Ray which is I have not free will and think , do and say as God directs my footsteps 24/7......365 days a year. I have planted my feet on a sure foundation this time around but wait.....was it not God that planted my feet? Surely it was God and surely it was God that brought me to this website know as B.T.

I will stop sinning when God says so and that is that. Anyone who claims to be righteous is only so because of God and none other.

What I have learned here at B.T. I view it as God’s truths with all my heart. I think if anyone tells me that I play a role in any part of my salvation may be sincere but is sincerely wrong.

I come to understand that God owns even my next breath as well as my every decision and all action although my action may be of God but not of God and even this I have come to understand.

I believe Jesus is the savior of the world specially of those who believe so either way Jesus got me covered and Jesus made sure I come to understand this too.

I learned the war is from within not from without and Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, faith that He gave me , I didn’t give me faith and also I come to understand everything I have in my life He allotted those things to me even my life has he given to me.

These are my beliefs which I have learned here at B.T. and I’m going to run with them and I know in the end I will be found with the right belief system because God saw to it that I should acknowledge him in spirit and in truth. :)

Peace and Love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 17, 2013, 04:55:46 PM: " I believe Jesus is the savior of the world specially of those who believe so either way Jesus got me covered and Jesus made sure I come to understand this too. "

Jesus definitely is the saviour of all and the whole world> But is not the First Resurrection a prize to be sought for? Who wants to miss out on .... Speaking for myself I am REALLY happy that Jesus will save all but don't want to be merely covered, I don't want to miss out.

" Mat 16:26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
Mat 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Jesus is electing some to sit on his throne with him where the second death has no power over. As Pauls says God is going to judge us according to what we have DONE

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal(age abiding) life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

I think one of the biggest tragedies would be at that day to say...wait wait I understood all the correct doctrine! I knew about no free will! I knew Jesus is the Saviour of all!

And then he says, Great! SO how did you demonstrate your love and obedience to me?

What will one say? I learned as much "truth" as I could but YET because I didn't feel motivated to do anything hard I did almost nothing and I pretty much was just waiting on you to do something through me and nothing every really happened so I didn't do anything.....

I wonder what the Lord's response will be.

I am only saying this to encourage people to try! It is NOT wrong to struggle to try to seek and to desire and to shed blood sweat and tears for this truth that you believe. If you love Him you will overcome. Jesus is coming back for overcomers.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 17, 2013, 07:39:58 PM: Hi Doug

What you said sounds nice Doug but I see a lot of free will in it my brother, Its Jesus who determines who will be the elect, not us. Now having said that, the more we know on this side of the resurrection is a good thing and even that is of our Lords doing.

All must come to and accurate knowledge of God and its God who is going to do it all in us and not us.

I'm seeing the the beast for who and what he is and the beast loves to do it all does he not, you know what I mean, it says sit back Lord Jesus and let me show you how I can do this that and the other thing.

I can do nothing on my own except that which God gives me to do, nothing more nothing less.

No brother Doug it won't be a shame if I find at the resurrection if I'm in the second resurrection because that's where Jesus wanted me to be and if I'm in the first resurrection it's only because its where Christ wanted me to be but either way it was always of Him by Him and for Him.

Understanding we don't have free will or choice lets us understand all is of God but not by God my friend in Christ. And yes I have a long way to GO.

Doug, you said

I think one of the biggest tragedies would be at that day to say...wait wait I understood all the correct doctrine! I knew about no free will! I knew Jesus is the Saviour of all!

And then he says, Great! SO how did you demonstrate your love and obedience to me?

The above sounds like I have free will ,I don't have free will.

Doug, you said

What will one say? I learned as much "truth" as I could but YET because I didn't feel motivated to do anything hard I did almost nothing and I pretty much was just waiting on you to do something through me and nothing every really happened so I didn't do anything.....

The above sounds like I can go against Gods will, I can't

Doug, you said you wonder what the Lord's response will be.

I wonder what the Lord's response will be.

He won't be quoting Frank Sinatra's song that says ( I did it my way ) again I don't have free will or choice.

If my salvation depends on me doing just one thing I'm already lost whereas if my salvation depends on Christ I shall be saved ( Jesus Christ savior of the world especially those who believe ) Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of my faith not me, I can't even believe or have faith in Him except I be dragged to Him

Love and peace to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 18, 2013, 12:05:43 AM: Hi Rick

I think maybe I can illustrate this way. If I go out and commit adultery, God forbid I should say...I am only doing what God caused me to do I have no say in the matter. If I feel like doing this tomorrow, with a really strong desire, resistance is futile. I might as well do it.

Perhaps one would be better served by saying, God I repent for the wickedness in me. Change me and cleanse me please. Help me to Oh God, I beg of you, with all that is in me to no longer do this terrible sin. I am hurting others, I am not doing the works of Christ, Christ would not commit adultery. I am doing the works of the flesh and the evil one. Help me to overcome!

Which is the correct attitude?

If your understanding of no free will leads you more into the first position and away from the second...I cannot see how your understanding is doing anything positive. It seems to be incredibly likely to lead one away from repentance.

I think killing the beast is God's work. Yes I agree there. But if you try to do God's work by insisting you know how God is going to change you and you are doing nothing until..adopting a complacent attitude like that, actually by default "testing God" by insisting that no good work gets done unless something happens without your active participation and blood sweat and tears...I think one is stopping the work of God in your heart in this life COLD.

The irony is that you will say, well if I never get victory or if I never do anything that simply means God is putting me on a non victorious shelf and I am consigned to the second death and will not participate in the First Resurrection. And that would probably be the correct judgement of oneself.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2013, 12:31:31 AM: ...But I say unto you, if a man even looks at a woman with lust, he has ALREADY committed adultery in his heart. Jesus Christ.

It is a weak, rebellious, or ignorant person who plans to go out and "do" a sin. But even with "strength", "humility" and "knowledge", he is incapable of changing his own heart.

I don't much care what a weak, rebellious, or ignorant person thinks of the gospel of the Kingdom and the Absolute Sovereignty of God. Just as I don't care about those who see the "absence of Hell" as an excuse to live it up. That is a heart which cannot even properly claim to be "converted".

Yes, there is overcoming to do...and not the least of which is the "overcoming" of this beast that sits on the throne in the place of God. Yes, we are to fight, but NOT AS boxers boxing the air. Yes, we are yoked together with Him, but it is HIS yoke He invites us to share, not OUR YOKE which He wants to direct. This life is less about living than it is about dying, at least this life IN CHRIST. It will come to everybody, each in his own turn...and it will come to those least "deserving" of it before it comes to many who think they "deserve" it. The Lake of Fire is in the presence of the Lamb. He is the race, and the prize.

Of the "speculation" concerning what we will say and what will be said in resurrection , don't forget to remember what actually DOES get said, according to scripture.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 18, 2013, 08:57:46 AM: Hi Doug

You have me thinking now Doug and that's a good thing. Going to work now but I have somethings you said I can meditate on today and will give another reply later this evening. Thanks Doug and have a nice day my brother.

Believe me when I tell you I have a long long way to go.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 18, 2013, 09:44:21 PM: Hi Doug,

After reading your response I felt as though I might have been guilty of being on the sidelines, I have been trying to understand what role do I play and how does one discern between God doing it ? or the beast doing it ?

Now we know the beast is working in all of Christendom and not Christ, But those believers believe Jesus is doing it and are waiting for the beast to show up on the seen one day as most are looking from without rather than within.
But we here at B.T. understand the beast is within us, not just within, we are the beast.

I guess knowledge is one thing but putting knowledge into practice is another thing, its kind of funny in some ways that is to say, when I used to go to church or was apart of Christendom I was filled with lies and was always confused and now I have the truth and still confused , Lol

I do believe all will be taught righteousness when His judgements are in the earth and all will come to an accurate knowledge of God one day. I am delighted knowing that hell as I was taught it is a Christen hoax but having said that I certainly hope I'm not found guilty of using this knowledge as a licence to sin.

Still trying to make the connection to understanding the fine line of self righteousness and the righteousness which is of God working in me!

So Doug, you said somethings in your reply I identified with and feel I have become complacent in certain ways or areas because of the knowledge I have learned here at B.T. and I do appreciate your response Doug.

I don't respond to any post of other believers here as I don't feel qualified and rightfully so as I'm so young in Christ and wish not to mislead anyone with my lack of knowledge but do learn much from reading other threads and responses to those thread.

For this cause do I post on B.T. I say what I believe but an older believer who reads what I write can discern if what I'm saying is accurate or not an if so great but if not please do not hold back from helping me with my understanding.

Thanks again brother Doug for your response as you given me some things to think about.

Love and peace to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on November 18, 2013, 11:13:15 PM: We are all somewhere along in the journey and we can help one another. God reveals His truth bit by bit. There are some things that He shows me know that a younger believer may already understand. God knows what is best at the right time for each of us. So we should always share what we have and be open for correction. A younger believer can have something for an older believer or can trigger something off that makes the older believer search more deeply for. We should never under estimate what God may do through any of us whatever stage we see ourselves at.

Rhys
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 19, 2013, 12:14:47 AM: Hi Rick

Do you know what I want for you? To be with Christ in the First Resurrection! To receive the white garment, to sit on His throne with Him, to be given a name that only you and Christ share, to have the crown of life, that the second death will have no power over you...

If there is anything I can do or say that helps another seek Him and follow Him that is all I can do. And that is what I want to do.

Yes there is tension, we never want to take credit or become self righteous, yet we want to be an overcomer! I have no desire to be complacent. God forbid is I secretly let my sin sit there because I say..."I am waiting for God to get rid of it"

I KNOW I NEED GOD TO CHANGE MY HEART SO I ASK HIM TO AND I EARNESTLY ASK. I ask God to teach me to walk in His spirit so i do not gratify my lusts. Am I double faced to ask? NO, it is more double faced to ask but not sincerely ask with all your heart...

Yes we rest in Christ. Yes Christ slays the beast that we are. We die daily. But there is nothing wrong with asking God to kill our beast!! If He does not, then He doesn't. But I would think that any prayer from my heart for greater righteousness and to die to the flesh and pursue righteousnes, I would think that prayer is from His spirit inside me, groaning for the redemption of the body. I hate my sinful weakness!! God shows us plenty how weak we are, but God give us your spirit to make us live in accordance with your spirit, please..

I think the scriptures are written to encourage us to pursue the gift of the resurrection of the righteous. God never tells us that we have received, our race (or walk) is in faith, and if God ever told us I am sure we would surely THEN become complacent and proud! Just as sitting back and not trying... saying well if God picks me he picks me, I am not going to pursue ..is also complacent...

But if you do not want it, or don't want it with all your heart, do you think he will give it to you? (This has nothing to do with how deserving one is on the outside, it is all about what is on the inside)

I pray that you, Rick are one of those counted worthy to be judge of all the nations with Christ.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 19, 2013, 12:18:26 AM: Rick, you said when you were in church you were filled with lies. I am supposing you meant, as all of us were, that somebody filled you with lies. But for me, there has been a step or two beyond that in coming to understand greater truths. That is that I don't want to be filled with lies myself. I don't want to tell them, and I don't want to live them. Whatever the case may be, that's what I want to acknowledge. I've had to come to some bone-crushing realizations...many before B-T, and many since...about what is TRUE about me. This type of "truth" was ostensibly expected in my church days, but never really accepted.

I remember the parable Jesus told about the Pharisee and the publican. The Pharisee prayed "Thank you that I am not as this publican is." He probably wasn't, in the way man measures goodness. The Publican prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Jesus asked the disciples which of the the two returned to his house justified. As I remember it, the disciples didn't answer, and neither did Jesus. I think that leaves US to answer, individually. I know MY answer beyond any shadow of doubt. One day, the publican will have his answer to prayer, and so will the Pharisee. Which comes first?
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 19, 2013, 12:38:02 AM: I'm not going to die before this thing is determined. Why not? Because it was determined from the foundation of the world. Yet, I do not know what is determined except that which has already happened. Therefore, I "work out my own salvation with fear and trembling" knowing it is God who works in me.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 19, 2013, 03:22:04 PM: I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything. Also there is that Scripture that tells us God works out everything to the good for those who are His.

So big dumb me. God has blessed me with the gift of believing what He says. It would be a lie for me to state that I'm afraid of anything. Or to try and fake "fear and trembling".

I don't even know if I want to be in the 1st Resurrection. I really don't like religious people. I really, really don't like religious people. I don't like all their religious talk (In Him----Prayers Going Up---Love You Brother---Love You Sister--You're in My Prayers---Yadda, yadda, yadda). Lovey, lovey, huggy, huggy, kissy, kissy. Like Ray said one time, it makes me ill in the midsection.

So if Jesus can promise me no religious people will slip through the cracks and get in the 1st Resurrection, then it might be fun. If not, then it would be kind of like hell to have to interact with religious people every day.

But there is no free will. I'm not in charge. So who knows what kind of people will be in the 1st Resurrection, except Jesus.

I trust Jesus in all things. I'll accept whatever He wants (as if I have any input in the 1st place).
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: microlink on November 19, 2013, 05:02:52 PM: Hey John from Kentucky,

I kinda agree with you. Having religion is not Christianity. Nice words, platitudes mean little.
It is the walk the counts.
There has to be more to this "fear and trembling" thing than I can comprehend.
Maybe there is more to this phrase.
Peace
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 19, 2013, 06:08:49 PM: John, I don't "work out my own election" with fear and trembling. But it is better to judge oneself now than to be judged later...even if that "later" is later in this life. There ARE things to do and to not do. And even more importantly, ways NOT to do what we do. Maybe there are even ways to NOT do what what we are not to do.

Anyways, it is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'm not worried about anything, nor am I worried about anybody.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 19, 2013, 06:34:00 PM: It doesn't matter what we think the kingdom should be like, it will be as God has determined and everybody that comes up in the first resurrection will be so overjoyed to be there. Every single person that is in that resurrection will be perfected from a lifetime of preparation, there will be zero, absolutely no worry/concern for who else may be among the elect there. Those there will be His chosen and will feel so blessed and honored to be there to do God's serve.

God is building/preparing the exact necessary combination of people now, down through the age, who will be more than ready and willing to work together to take care of, as needs be, the rest that will be raised into the world.

Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 19, 2013, 11:20:22 PM: Hi Doug

Thank you for further elaborating your point as it put so much together for me. I see how God talks to us through us as a body of believers.

I say that because some of the things you said were right on the money for me , I feel God inspired you to say the things you said to me because it was what I needed.

Thanks again Doug for your time and your help.

Hi Dave from Tenn.

What my meaning was about being lie to was all the teaching I learned from all the churches I had attended such as South shore faith ministries, the assembly of God, St. Coleman's , St Edwards, Calvary chapel and many others not to mention the religious station too like Dr Charles Stanley ,Frederic Price, James Kennedy Dr, McGee and many more.

All of us here at B.T. was taught false doctrine and now I find myself having to unlearn the false doctrine except the truth I'm now learning.

When I had first learned and believed Ray was right about there being no place of eternal torment I was delighted but as time went on I stared to struggle with the notion there was no hell. Now I'm solid in my belief that there is NO HELL.

What I have learned here at B.T. I will not let anyone take that from me but as Doug had pointed out I was misunderstanding how to apply the truths I been learning here.

You had also said some things too Dave that really helped my understanding out. I'm so thankful being apart of this forum, it's where God answers my questions through the believers here at B.T. and it to me is an awesome thing to behold.

Thank you also Dave.

Love and peace to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 20, 2013, 12:05:56 AM: The house that's built on the sand has to fall. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. You're not going through anything that's outside the purpose of God for you. But He doesn't leave us or forsake us even when it feels like He has.

Keep going. If you want to do good and not do evil, then that is a good thing. There are more surprises in store for you, I think. They will be also tailor-made for you in the details, but not uncommon for believers. We don't grow up all at once. All we are promised is a "happy ending". I hope a good portion of it comes to you before resurrection. Happy are the meek, etc. Happy are they who read the book of this Testimony. "Rejoice in all things...and again, I say rejoice." Don't make me quote the whole Bible. :D
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on November 20, 2013, 09:26:29 AM: Quote from: John from Kentucky on November 19, 2013, 03:22:04 PM
I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything.

You may not like this 'fear and trembling thing' but it is as scriptural as the verses that you shared, unless of course you believe that some scriptures are true and some are not. All these scriptures harmonize one with the other. If we don't believe that then we are left as the various denominations fighting over what the word of God says.

Ray taught on this in the Nashville 2007 conference;

.....God puts us in the same situation, we have to live our lives. You may say, well I’ll just kill myself. Not unless God wants you to, you can’t kill yourself if God doesn’t want you to. Everybody that ever killed themselves, it was after God said... okay, now you are going to kill yourself.

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances. He doesn’t make anyone kill themselves against their will, no. But He puts them into situations where they can’t tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: Is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, it’s like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. That’s the way you should live your life. He could not help but pray.

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it’s talking about. Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it’s not.

Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Doesn’t that contradict this whole thing... we’re saved by grace and not of works? Now we’re to work out our own salvation? What is that? How do you explain that “Of Myself I can do nothing” (John 5:30)? And He said "YOU can do nothing" (John 15:5), to the apostles. Then Paul says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Well it does sound like a contradiction. But read the next verse and He tells us why. "For" now that word always means ‘because' or it’s another word for because.

Phi 2:13 For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Some of you probably still don’t get the answer, but it is there. "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying. He is not saying, work out your own salvation, period. No, He’s saying “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that’s where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on working out your own salvation.

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why? Because it all depends on God! If God doesn’t do it, it won’t happen, IT WON’T HAPPEN! So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined I’m going to have one. What it doesn’t mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you don’t need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that. But you do have to act it out. Why? You have to, He makes you.

He made you come out of your mother’s womb and He made you cry. Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances. He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother.

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it. So we have plays like ‘Stop the world I want to get off.’ It's like I’ve had enough, I’m at the end of my rope and it’s the end of the line. Well it’s only the end of the line IF God has determined it’s the end of the line.
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you won’t die until your 77 1/2, then you're not going to end it.

That’s where the fear and trepidation come in. It ALL depends on God, there’s nothing you can do. But YOU have to work it out. YOU have to get up and go to work. YOU have to do all this stuff.

Then you say I don’t want to anymore, well circumstances make you. So you think, I’ll just end it all... then your child comes up and says ‘Mommie.’ Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I can’t kill myself I’ve got to live for my child. You see? So God makes you live this life. He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT. But not against your will. He puts you in circumstances and that’s the only way you can go. The ONLY way!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: microlink on November 20, 2013, 11:49:16 AM: Quote from: Arion on November 20, 2013, 09:26:29 AM
Quote from: John from Kentucky on November 19, 2013, 03:22:04 PM
I'm not into this "fear and trembling" thing.

God tells us in Philippians 4:6 not to worry about anything.

You may not like this 'fear and trembling thing' but it is as scriptural as the verses that you shared, unless of course you believe that some scriptures are true and some are not. All these scriptures harmonize one with the other. If we don't believe that then we are left as the various denominations fighting over what the word of God says.

Ray taught on this in the Nashville 2007 conference;

.....God puts us in the same situation, we have to live our lives. You may say, well I’ll just kill myself. Not unless God wants you to, you can’t kill yourself if God doesn’t want you to. Everybody that ever killed themselves, it was after God said... okay, now you are going to kill yourself.

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances. He doesn’t make anyone kill themselves against their will, no. But He puts them into situations where they can’t tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: Is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, it’s like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. That’s the way you should live your life. He could not help but pray.

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what it’s talking about. Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but it’s not.

Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Doesn’t that contradict this whole thing... we’re saved by grace and not of works? Now we’re to work out our own salvation? What is that? How do you explain that “Of Myself I can do nothing” (John 5:30)? And He said "YOU can do nothing" (John 15:5), to the apostles. Then Paul says “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Well it does sound like a contradiction. But read the next verse and He tells us why. "For" now that word always means ‘because' or it’s another word for because.

Phi 2:13 For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Some of you probably still don’t get the answer, but it is there. "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying. He is not saying, work out your own salvation, period. No, He’s saying “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, that’s where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on working out your own salvation.

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why? Because it all depends on God! If God doesn’t do it, it won’t happen, IT WON’T HAPPEN! So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined I’m going to have one. What it doesn’t mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you don’t need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that. But you do have to act it out. Why? You have to, He makes you.

He made you come out of your mother’s womb and He made you cry. Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances. He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother.

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it. So we have plays like ‘Stop the world I want to get off.’ It's like I’ve had enough, I’m at the end of my rope and it’s the end of the line. Well it’s only the end of the line IF God has determined it’s the end of the line.
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you won’t die until your 77 1/2, then you're not going to end it.

That’s where the fear and trepidation come in. It ALL depends on God, there’s nothing you can do. But YOU have to work it out. YOU have to get up and go to work. YOU have to do all this stuff.

Then you say I don’t want to anymore, well circumstances make you. So you think, I’ll just end it all... then your child comes up and says ‘Mommie.’ Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I can’t kill myself I’ve got to live for my child. You see? So God makes you live this life. He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT. But not against your will. He puts you in circumstances and that’s the only way you can go. The ONLY way!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [/color]

Yes all is of God. We have our part and it is as God wills in us.
"God is responsible we are accountable" - One of my favourites from Ray.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 20, 2013, 10:44:01 PM: Hi Arion.

Thanks for your post, what a learning experience that was for me. No doubt being apart of B.T. is a great blessing for me, I’m thankful I did this thread as the understanding I received from everyone’s responses help me very much.

Thanks again Arion for how you explained things I appreciate it very much.

Love and peace to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Stacey on November 21, 2013, 06:07:56 AM: Hey Rick, I sure am glad you vented. :) Thanks.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Ricky on November 22, 2013, 09:49:42 AM: Hello Rick, good post. I could vent, if I did, God could make Hell very real and just for me. What if I were to say, I cannot love God because I dont have free will. Who's fault is this mine or His. Everyone here would say its my fault, I would disagree. Bless you all. Ricky
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Ricky on November 22, 2013, 10:22:15 AM: This is what I believe. In order for a human being to truefully love God, he or she Must be sinless, Jesus was sinless. And being sinless is Impossible to do, no free will! ! Its almost like you would need free will to be able to change certain things in your life to have some kind of power against sin. If you were God would you have created life the way it is, the human answer is no. I could go on and on. Ricky
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on November 22, 2013, 02:37:35 PM: Quote from: Ricky on November 22, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
What if I were to say, I cannot love God because I dont have free will. Who's fault is this mine or His. Everyone here would say its my fault,

Not so quick with the broad brush Ricky. I think that most of us would think that it isn't your 'fault'.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [drag in the greek] him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you............

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Salvation is all of God and not of man. We can't come to Christ on our own power, we can't love him of our own power either. God holds us accountable for the actions that we willingly [in our minds] make but in the end God is responsible. One doesn't have to be sinless to love God. I'm sure you would admit that all the apostles loved Christ and certainly the apostle John loved Christ and they were not sinless....not by far. But it wasn't until Christ gave them of His spirit that they could truly say that they loved him. They thought that they loved him, at least up unto the time that they abandoned him in garden just as it was prophesied that they would.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 23, 2013, 12:02:52 AM: Hi Ricky

There is so much I need to learn, so many things to understand but after reading your post to this thread I realize what I need more than anything else is to except God’s plan, yes I don’t have a choice in the matter.

When I was apart of Christendom I believed everything was up to me to get saved, I knew and believed in hell and lived in fear because of it, I could not stop sinning in spite of knowing sin would condemn me to hell.

Now being apart of B.T. many false doctrine have been dispelled from me and I’m learning God’s truths and now know there is no hell. So I excepted there is no hell, I except I have no free will nor choice.

I’m relieved knowing everything is ordained of God and knowing that comforts me in a way that I never had all these years.

I’m not angry at God because he controls me completely and everything I had ever thought, did or said was what He intended for me to do, for whatever reason it was important for me to experience all I had experience.

A few weeks ago I had felt uneasy because all at once I saw everything as corrupt the government the religious leaders my own sinful nature and everything I watch on the news just got to me.

Then I did this thread because of these things I had experienced but after reading all the responses and learning from those responses I now know why God cause me to go through all those things I did.

Love and peace to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on November 23, 2013, 06:34:45 AM: Tks Kat for your kind words of encouragement. Indeed it is all thanks to our Lord Jesus that we will someday stand in the presence of God, as sons and daughters of God, fully made in his image. I have been reading and re-reading this thread as I am still struggling to fully understand this free-will thing. I must confess that I am not a very prayerful person, so whatever changes that have been wrought in my character are a result of being purged in the fire, not in answer to prayer but by the purpose of his will. The truth about the lof squares very well with my personal experience. And so does free will . In hindsight all the choices I made in life, the good, bad and ugly were not free at all. I didn’t ask to be here at all, nor did I ever desire to be in the first resurrection, I didn’t even know about it till coming to BT! So if it has been such upto now, doesn’t it follow that I will not have a choice in the matter hereafter? Ofcourse, God will not take me screaming and kicking into the his kingdom, in the first resurrection or second, but will give me a new heart that will pursue him and his righteousness. And in this I rest.

Reading Doug’s posts in this thread makes me feel like I’ve become complacent, that I'm not exerting my free-will, since coming to BT. But I’m not complacent and I don't have a free will. Rather for me, this is enjoying the Sabbath rest after having strived all of my time in Christendom to achieve that perfection that is obtainable only through the working of Christ’s spirit in us. In the lof ofcourse! I don’t believe that resting in the truths of free will and God’s sovereignty, is adopting a defeatist attitude and here’s why. I prayed as best as I knew then for a good marriage. I didn’t get what I hoped for. Those days there was a lot of overcoming, there still is, but its more relaxed. I didn’t pray to stay married for 16 years but God caused circumstances that didn’t allow me to be divorced. Am I happy? Not always. Am I an overcomer. Yes! Do I believe that God is working all things together for my good? Yes! It is the faith of the Son in me and my faith in Him (the Word) that helps me overcome. I don't have to work at it.

So how does this square with 1 Peter 2:11-12,

Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.

I believe that the answer is in 1 Peter 2:15,16

For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.

It is in recognizing that our real freedom is in submitting (no free will here either) to God’s will. But we can know this real freedom, only after passing through Babylon, having strived in our own will to be overcomers, which is not wrong per se. The beast as I am coming to see, not only does evil, but also self righteous deeds, leading us to believe that we have the power to save ourselves, to be overcomers.

As I see it, in the OT, the law was a mirror. In the NT, the Word is a mirror, so in Babylon, when we’re confronted as believers with the Word, we realize how unworthy we are and we strive for perfection. It is only after experiencing defeat that God shows us the ultimate truth (free will and God's sovereignty) that we can do nothing of ourselves. In my experience, God has dealt with my sins. The sins I still struggle with I know he will deal with in his time.

Just venting.

Tks everyone for sharing on this thread. I've learnt so much.

Tks Rick. Like you I'm still learning and enjoying every bit of it! :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 23, 2013, 11:56:48 AM: Hi Loretta,

When I look back on my life, it's almost strange to think that God was always shaping me through the circumstances of my life (that lead to my making the choices I did), like you said all of them "the good, the bad and the ugly" to bring me to where I am today, but I know this is true.

I believe it was all needful, every single thing that I/we have went through to give us the knowledge from experience we need to make us who we are. All those things have created my/our character... our own personality from the environment and all the circumstances that we have in our life situations. The things we have experienced, that knowledge we have gained can vary greatly and creates the individual that we are, we're all unique. In so being I don't think we can look at things in the exact same way, yes we are unified by His Spirit, but still have our own perspectives.

I feel a strong need to strive to study and learn and grow in knowledge concerning these truths, others may have a more laid back approach. It's all good, if God's Spirit is working in us. Some of us are outgoing personalities with a desire to share this truth with everybody, I do not want to witness to the world around me and I don't think that is wrong, but I should not condemn other who may desire to do so. Because some are more like Moses and slow in speech, not so eloquent in expressing ourselves, not so eager to jump into conversations.

Exo 4:10 Then Moses said to the LORD, "O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue."

God had prepared Aaron to help Moses and with us there are a multitude of differing personalities and knowledge, we are not all suppose to be the same, it makes for a much more dynamic group. This is what is so good about the way that God is doing things, we are all looking at these truths coming from somewhat differing perspectives... I have seen how these differing personalities are very useful in helping/encouraging others, as it's easier to relate and help somebody when you have had a similar experience. We should embrace each others differences as long as we are like minded in these truths.

I guess we need to be more understanding of peoples somewhat differing styles, as long as we are helping and not hurting.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on November 24, 2013, 06:28:37 AM: Tks once again Kat, for this new perspective.

I understand now that we all have our own unique journeys, trials and testing. Within that we go through different seasons, of resting and overcoming, perhaps even rebelling. Everything is orchestrated by God, designed and perfected to our individual strengths and calling, according to his all knowing wisdom and purpose. I can't even begin to imagine the beauty and harmony that will be achieved through all these differences as the body of Christ grows and builds itself up in love.

Ephesians 4:16 KJV From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 24, 2013, 01:45:21 PM: Hi Loretta

I agree with your last post wholeheartedly. Clearly we go through various "seasons" in our spiritual life all orchestrated by God. As Solomon wrote "there is a time or season for everything" (total paraphrase) But I just want to reiterate that the New Testament was written to overcomers...those called and chosen to be with Christ as Christ subjects everything under His feet. The writings of Paul and Peter and throughout the New Testament has hundreds of admonitions to seek, strive, put off the old, obey, don't gratify the flesh, walk in the spirit..nothing in the writings imply a sit on our butts attitude.

Above there was a nice excerpt pasted from Ray. Where was quoted "work like it all depends on you but pray like it all depends on God" That seems to be excellent advice. We are never presuming on God by always doing our best yet acknowledging in prayer and petition that it is all up to him. I have no desire to presume on God that something will get done if I don't do it. Kind of like Jesus in the garden attitude. Jesus went and embraced the cross yet while praying with all his effort if there was another way. I mean God does it all right? So why didn't God go to the cross and not Jesus? That question is ridiculous but that is the endpoint of presuming on God with tge attitude we won't shed blood sweat and tears in our efforts to become victorious because hey...we don't need to put forth the effort..that is free will...no it is not. It is effort and not presuming on God.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2013, 03:57:40 PM: DougE6, I'm kind of thinking your are preaching to the choir here, I don't think any of us believe that we could enter the kingdom with no effort at all. But it does appear that you are stressing works a great deal more than grace... certainly the Spirit indwelling will create the right balance of works in those that are chosen.

Here is where Ray discussed this thoroughly in the Biblestudy "Do James And Paul Contradict?"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 -------

“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”

In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone?)…

Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...

Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’

v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…

‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.

v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…

Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.

v. 9 …lest any man should boast.

Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.

v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…

Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.

From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…

What kind of workmanship?

v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…

Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.

v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.

But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.

DID JESUS CHRIST HAVE ANYTHING TO SAYS ABOUT "GOOD WORKS?"

Two other important Scriptures. Did Jesus Christ have anything to say about good works or was He one of these faith and grace people like Paul supposedly was.

Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
v. 16 Let your light so shine before men…

Now He is talking to His Apostles this is the Sermon on the Mount, if you read my last installment you know that the Sermon on the Mount is for us. This is for us, His disciples.

v. 16 … that they may see your good works…

Works of the law? It didn’t say works of the law, it said “good works.”

v. 16 …and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

WHAT DOES PETER TEACH?

What about Peter? Peter is the one that teaches a different gospel? We already saw what Paul had to say about good works. What about Peter, did Peter have anything to say about good works?

1Peter 2:12 Having your conversation (conduct) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Peter also… “good works.” Yes they talked about faith and grace, but good works, it’s there, it’s every where.

JAMES AN EPISTLE OF STRAW?

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The heretic Luther called James an epistle of straw. Let me tell you something this is one of the most profound little books in the whole Bible. I mean you talk about somebody nailing it like James does, he brings in a physical analogy and the dispute is gone. He just nails it. Now notice this …“can faith save him” that means belief, just a belief. Is a belief important? It’s very important. Can it save you? Listen, we read by grace through faith we’re saved, but not alone. Paul brings in the good works, that's all part of it you see. Now can faith save you? In other words can faith alone save you is what he is saying here. Can faith alone save you? You’ve got faith, can that save you?

v. 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
v. 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

But you have faith. But James says what good is it if you don’t exercise it, see, what good is it? Will it save you? If someone is in need of something and you say, ‘bless you my child, go in peace, be warm, be happy and healthy.’ If he says, ‘I could use a sandwich’ and you reply, ‘later dude’...

I just want to show you how you can tie stuff in together. Notice what he says.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
v

Remember we read where Paul talked about the weak and the beggarly things of the law and circumcision and all of that.

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
v. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; (then notice what Paul says) the same which I also was forward (eager) to do.

They are talking about these works of the law that profit nothing and what do they throw in there? Good works. “Which I was eager to do.” They reminded us, don’t forget the poor. There was apparently a famine at this time in Jerusalem and all Judea, maybe. So some of the surrounding churches, Gentile churches that were not in this famine, were to take up a collection.

1Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

You know lay up a store, so when we go up to Jerusalem we can take this stuff up to the poor Saints up there. So he said, “I was eager to do that,” good works. It’s Paul who uses the term, that we should be “zealous.”

Titus 2:14 …zealous of good works.

That’s Paul. Now back to James.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So is faith alone a good thing? No, it “is dead.” But we are told that James contradicts Paul. I get emails that say, ‘Paul was a heretic. I mean come on Ray, you know he was a heretic.’

I mean you can’t get more… he gives you an example, he says I’ve got faith. He says, look if somebody comes up to you and says, ‘I need a sandwich or a drink’ and you say, ‘well good luck to you.’ He says how is that faith, will that kind of faith save you?

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, “show me your faith without your works” show me, if you have faith, show me. ‘Well I don’t have to show you, it’s in my heart.’ Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. ‘I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.’ James says, “show me.” Put your money where your mouth is, show me.
v

Show me, that’s what James is saying here. He said you “show me your faith without works,” which he’s saying, you can’t do it... then he says, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.

James 2:19 Thou believest (Strong’s 4100)…

The word is faith. There are two words, one is 4100 - pisteuō and then we have 4102 - pistis. One is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. It’s the same root word. Faith is a noun, I have faith 4102. How do I have faith, because I believe 4100, that’s a verb. My faith (noun) believe (verbs).

v. 19 Thou believe (or you have faith) that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Wow, James doesn’t mince words does he... He says, so you believe and you’ve got this uppity yucky lovey dovey kissy kissy huggy huggy faith in your heart, right? Well let me tell you something, so do the demons, so do the devils. Now he could have said it again, what does it profit them without works, because they believe?

v. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

He does say it again.

v. 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 25, 2013, 02:56:04 PM: Hi Kat

When I strongly emphasize works I am not saying that these works are not of grace. It is God's grace working inside that causes the works He wants done to be done. SO I think our works prove whether God's grace and faith are actually in us. I think your excerpt from Ray is right on. Ray did not mince words in that excerpt. He made it very clear that works are a big deal.

QUOTE FROM EXCERPT
Man I tell you this James is a smart cookie. I mean he knows how to bring about an analogy or example or a way of stating it. He say, “show me your faith without your works” show me, if you have faith, show me. ‘Well I don’t have to show you, it’s in my heart.’ Did you ever hear that kind of nonsense. ‘I love the Lord in my heart, what I do on the outside is none of your damn business. I have love in my heart.’ James says, “show me.” Put your money where your mouth is, show me.
v

Show me, that’s what James is saying here. He said you “show me your faith without works,” which he’s saying, you can’t do it... then he says, “I’ll show you my faith by my works.” I put my money where my mouth is, James says I do what I say, I not only talk the talk, but walk the walk.
UNQUOTE

Of course our faith is of grace, it is given to us. But if we have real faith, Christ's faith..we will have the works. If you have no works or no desire for works, or want to desire to do good works, or put forth effort for good works...I would say you do not have saving faith. After all, we are His workmanship by grace through faith to do the good works that He has ordained us to do.

Well a person might say..yeah but I believe in the salvation of all. I believe that there is no free will. Great! Now, is that a belief that you have or is it faith? If it is real faith, saving faith, and not merely some knowledge you have...then that faith will cause you to to do good works. Knowledge doesn't save, it is faith through grace...and I prove I have the faith by my works. Maybe I am preaching to the choir hear, but I really think that when James says "faith without works is dead" that is a very sobering statement.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2013, 05:10:43 PM: What works? And "What works?"
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2013, 06:46:16 PM: We can agree that a person with no works has no faith, but if a person had no faith, would he have no works?
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rene on November 25, 2013, 10:06:42 PM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2013, 06:46:16 PM
We can agree that a person with no works has no faith, but if a person had no faith, would he have no works?

I don't know Dave, but here is a marvelous reply that Jesus gave to His disciples regarding works:

John 6:28-29 - " They said, therefore, unto Him—What are we to do, that we may be working the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them—This, is the work of God: that ye believe on Him whom, He, hath sent forth."
(Rotherham)

I found this reply to be quite telling. 8)

René
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 25, 2013, 10:42:16 PM: All this talk of works as if we have something to do with it , I see the Bible says that a man’s works will be burned up but not the man himself.

What constitutes works anyways ? I’m serious, what qualifies a work so as to be called a work ?
When I read some of these replies I ask myself are these replies suppose to put one under the law?

Any work that I deem as a good work that is done by me will be burned up but any work which is done by Christ will not be burned up and I will receive a reward for that which Christ does in and through me.

I am only a vessel, you know the pot , I am being molded by God . Could a good work be considered just saying to someone ,have a nice day? Or could it just be listening to someone who needs to talk about something they deem important ?

I am under grace not law, I see all this emphasizes’ on works , sure James says I’ll show you my faith by my works but who’s works are they ? Are they James or Christ works through James ?

I think if God wants me to sit on the couch, can I do otherwise ? Or if God wants me to jump off the couch can I do otherwise ?

Is it not God who gives me grace ? Is it not God who gives me faith ? Is it not God who will give me works ?

I think to much emphasis on works is emphasis on law . Just my thoughts on works which I can not take credit for any work that is of Christ but that work I can take credit for is my work and my work shall be burned up from what I understand. :(

Peace and Love to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on November 25, 2013, 10:57:53 PM: Quote from: Rick on November 25, 2013, 10:42:16 PM
All this talk of works as if we have something to do with it , I see the Bible says that a man’s works will be burned up but not the man himself.

What constitutes works anyways ? I’m serious, what qualifies a work so as to be called a work ?

The works may be done through us, but we actually participate in that don't you think? Paul gives us a very straight forward answer to what works are of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
v. 22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 25, 2013, 11:52:16 PM: Hi Kat,

I see every fruit of the spirit in me that is mentioned in the bible but also some fruits of the flesh too. I get confused sometimes when I hear this talk of works. At this point I do believe God does it all through us, but having said that I will also say so much I don't know or understand but I trust more in God today than yesterday, for all that happens in my life.

All I say is the lords will be done in me as its done in heaven. If God does not show me then how can I know but if God does show me then how can I not know ?

Anyways you have me thinking about the things you said. You know, the more I learn here the more I realize how much I don't know.

Love and peace to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on November 26, 2013, 01:40:24 PM: Hi Rick

you wrote "I think if God wants me to sit on the couch, can I do otherwise ? Or if God wants me to jump off the couch can I do otherwise ?"

Clearly God is the arranger of circumstance and your will will respond just how He knows you will, but I am not sure how productive it is to think in the manner as that paste off your prior post implies.

None of us know what God has planned for anyone of us for tomorrow or next year or even 5 minutes from now. Maybe He is going to arrange circumstances so that a deep character flaw festering inside will come to the surface and you will act on it. With some very negative consequences for you or others.

The actual point of God's action may have been to show you what was in your heart so you could repent. So you could experience first hand the consequences and the pain that disobedience and practicing sin will cause you and others. Or maybe to show again how ruled you are by your weaknesses. Or all of the above. Or other things to be revealed later.

I don't think thinking...this was God's will for me to do this and so I had no choice...so I did it... is the productive approach. Knowing full well that He is the arranger and causer of circumstance and you are the learner and the repenter and the one needing discipline and judgement is the correct attitude.

As Ray has said...God does not hold hold a gun to our heads. We always make a choice, and this choice reflects our inner values and whether we are led of the spirit or our flesh. So we OWN our choice because we MADE it, even if it was a lock that we would make that choice. If we make a disobedient choice then we need to repent that that weakness is in us... we are not in the spirit and we are in the weak weak flesh.

So I think the productive approach is always to try with EFFORT to choose the good. If I fail, then I know that I am either in the flesh contrary to what I think of myself or I need some more work done inside. Of course repent and ask God for the help is the key. But if you never try to resist, if you do not struggle, if you say..this is merely God's plan that I do this sin...how will you ever deeply learn the lessons?

I think the doctrine of God's sovereignty must never be used as an excuse not to try to give effort. Or not to work with what God has given you to help others without waiting for a gong to ring in the sky. The Scriptures tell us what to do all through them. If we belong to Him, if we call Him Lord, we will act of them.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on November 26, 2013, 02:58:02 PM: Quote from: DougE6 on November 26, 2013, 01:40:24 PM

I don't think thinking...this was God's will for me to do this and so I had no choice...so I did it... is the productive approach.

I think that you are still preaching to the choir DougE. None of us here at BT, having understood and embraced the truths of the lake of fire, free-will and the sovereignty of God think this way - that I had no choice...so I did it. Ofcourse we know full well that He is the arranger and causer of circumstance and that we are the learner and the repenter and the one needing discipline and judgement. We wouldn't be here if we didn't.

We would still be in Babylon, but we're not.

You talk of productive approach and disobedient choices as if we are really free to choose. I remember something that Dave said in another thread long ago - I don't try to conform my life to the Bible, but use it to understand what's happening in my life - or something along those lines. None of us here are willful rebellious sinners using the free will argument as license to sin. But looking back we can see God's sovereign hand in our lives working for our good.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: microlink on November 26, 2013, 07:36:59 PM: Very good post Loretta. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 26, 2013, 08:12:05 PM: Two victories:

1. Victory over racial bigotry. It took a heap of good and bad examples, growing desire to follow the good and not follow the bad, hundreds of usually seemingly unrelated life experiences not entered into by my own will or choice, the loss of television (especially local news) for about 6 years--again not by choice but by acquiescence, and events in the world and the culture all through my life (large and small) that had impact on me, and myriad choices, tests of those choices, and tests by and from others, humility and humiliations--all this over the course of decades.

2. Overnight (relatively speaking) the change in my "language" from a near constant stream of profanity and invective to the absence of that and the growing presence of "blessing", whether that was for my 'circumstances' (all of God) or for all those pesky other people in the world who I knew were also in His hands.

I can't say that there aren't those to whom "the salvation of all" and the "absolute sovereignty of God" are little more than doctrinal curiosities. But that wasn't what happened to me. Though I am far from perfect, SIMPLY BELIEVING was what started the work in me which He has promised to continue. And so far, He has.

Now then: Of those two, which was "God working in me to will and to do His good pleasure"? One took decades and untold thousands of twists and turns, and required my participation since it all was happening to ME. The other took a few hours at most and I didn't know that it had happened until it was all over and I looked back. One came about after much struggle. The other fell in my lap. Both were "overcoming" and could not, as it is axiomatic, have come about without what preceded them.

Rick, I know what you mean when you say that "do good" is often accompanied by someone wanting to tell you just HOW. We all came from that, and it is perfectly understandable to be wary. In my view, that TOO is overcoming...and in NO SMALL WAY.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on November 28, 2013, 09:27:22 AM: Hi Doug,

It appears in your reply that I have not conveyed my thoughts according to my belief in my understanding of Ray’s writings and how that understanding is applied to my attitude concerning my walk with Christ.

When I sin, I never say God made me sin although I do believe it was Gods intention that I took the course of action I chose.

I know full well that God temps no one to sin nor does God sin but I believe God created Satan for that purpose of bringing people into temptation. I believe God is responsible for what I do period but I’m accountable for my own actions because of my own depravity which also is of God creating us all in vanity but not without hope.

My understanding never says, oh God made me do it, there is a separation between God’s liability and any sin I may commit.

I do not have a throw up my hands attitude and say this sin is what God wants me to sin and conclude it must be this way but think this way is how God is teaching me what I’m to understand through experiencing good and evil.

I trust that my knowledge / understanding as I perceive all things of God is exactly where God wants me to be right down to the most minute detail of my understanding.

I think how blessed I am knowing I only believe in Christ because I was caused to believe in Christ by God’s doing. I see myself like the story Jesus told about a certain pharisee who said to God I’m thankful I’m not like that sinner over there or that beggar over there but I’m like the man in the story who won’t even raise his eyes to heaven but say’s forgive me God for I’m a sinner.

I know its not possible or that it’s an impossibility for me to save myself, I believe if God leaves just one thing up to me in order to receive salvation then salvation for me is lost, I will fail, miss the mark, screw it up.

My hope is in the death and resurrection of Christ.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: cjwood on November 28, 2013, 02:01:21 PM: rick, your testimony is refreshing and inspiring. it is evident that God is gracing your heart to come to the knowledge and truth of His working in your life. you are a blessing to the forum members and to any guests viewing this thread. i have enjoyed reading all of your posts. it is exciting to see God at work.

claudia
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Ricky on November 29, 2013, 07:14:54 AM: Rick, dont like the name to much, but I sure like and understand what I hear from you. Thx for coming here. Kat, you are the only other one that makes any sence to me. Thank you.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on November 29, 2013, 10:20:15 AM: I like this church. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 03, 2013, 07:56:18 PM: Hi Claudia,

Thank you for your kind words but it's important that everyone know I learned the truth right here at B.T. and still have much to learn, in fact it will take a lifetime.

This forum has been a great blessing to me and help me to understand my creator in a different shade of light, dispelled of lies, leaving me with truth.

This is a special website second to none and anyone finding this site and believing Ray's papers are being blessed very much. :)

Hi Ricky,

I'm glad you understood the things I said as I feel I have not conveyed myself properly in prior post. We all learn together here and that is a most wonderful thing and its also why we are here. :)

Hi Loretta,

I like this church too, It's the only church I know where truth rules and I grow spiritually one day at a time, and that of course, is in Gods time! :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 12:19:11 AM: ............
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on December 04, 2013, 01:22:00 AM: Pierdut, it's about attitude... you keep trying to fix yourself, because you have not remove the beast off of it's throne. You can't fix yourself! You think God is not listening or doesn't care and won't answer your prayers... you have made Him into an unjust, unfair God in your own mind. Even in your posting the anger comes through.

We all will eventually come to the point when we realize that we have nothing of any good within our self, nothing! That includes any ability to correct our own wrong behavior. When we finally give up on being able to do any good, even for our self, we will turn to God in a truly humble attitude and seek the help we need... then we will find a loving God. It takes a lot, that's really an understatement of what it takes to get to that point of giving up or removing the beast off it's throne, but when that really happens it is a blessing beyond compare. God will bring all to that point, eventually.

Php 4:7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 04, 2013, 01:48:31 AM: Hi Pierdut

My life has change in many ways also and not for the better in the way of the world , five years ago I left B.T. and went on my way, My wife Donna got sick in 2003 and died July 28 2009 , I held her hand as she drew her last breath.

My heart was crushed, the pain I had experience was so great I wanted to die that same night my wife Donna died. It took me one and a half years to except she was really gone.

After that year and a half had passed by I felt very lonely and became a workaholic, home was just a place to go when there was nothing left to do.

I had purchase a motorcycle and rode it with a passion and became a man of the world living it up, you know, women, wine ,hotels and fine restaurants .

Then things started going wrong in my life , things became difficult for me and happiness eluded me, something change and don’t ask me how I knew but I knew God was behind this change I was going through.

I found myself trying to remember this site B.T. I had been on five years earlier and when I did I started reading the lake of fire series for awhile , now I’m back.

The answer to your question is simple although you may not see it yet but you will, I read this in the bible but don’t know the scripture but says this ( be quiet and know that I am God ) well to me that means meditating and waiting on the Lord.

I find its God, who motivates me these days and strengthen me to endure those things I must endure. It really is in Gods time , but having said that I can relate to many things you said.

My heart goes out to you, you know sometimes when we win we really loose and when we loose we win.

I like how Paul the apostle said it when he said I been abound and abased ,right now I’m abased and I’m ok with that but not long ago I was abound living it up but God put and end to that for me and now He is showing me something that are worth more than all the gold on earth.

Our life here on earth is only for a short season and in this season I remember God allots to each and everyone what they shall have and what they shall have not. Its really is of God no matter what we go through but remember the words of Paul the apostle when he said ( I reckoned the suffering we go through is nothing compared to the glory we shall one day be cloths with ) .

I hope you can find some comfort in these things I said to you but now that I remember, when my wife died it didn’t matter what people said to me because the pain within was to great to hear what people were saying.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on December 04, 2013, 04:03:53 PM: Quote from: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 12:19:11 AM

If you read all this, and gave a damn, I thank you, and may God bless you.

Kat gave you some good advice in the post just below yours. We can't fix ourselves, we can't quit sinning and dropping bad habits on our own power or anything else. I think of Christ saying that without his Father he could do nothing. And then he tells us that without him we can do nothing. The more we try to fix what is wrong with us and the harder we struggle the tighter our chains become. At least that has been my experience.

Right now believe it or not you are right where God wants to you to be. Sooner or later you will quit trying to change yourself and God will give you a peace about your situation. You'll begin to trust that God knows what he's doing and that your safe in his hands and then things will start to change for you. Until then it's a process of beating your head against a brick wall. With God's help I'm starting to quit the banging of the head because it hurts too much. As long as we think that we can work to change our own situation...our situation won't change very much if at all.

I know God loves me. I know he has promised to conform me to the image of his son. And I also know that I am powerless to change myself from what I am to what God wants me to be. God will get me where I need to be when I need to be there. I realize all the scriptures about striving, working out our own salvation, faith, ect. It's just that when God does it that it is the power of His spirit striving, working and building faith, ect. God will get you to where you need to be when you need to be there. That realization takes the weight off of your shoulders which is a weight we were never able to carry in the first place.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on December 04, 2013, 04:47:50 PM: Quote from: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 12:19:11 AM
But none of this helps me; when prayer doesn't seem to work; when working hard and giving it all you got doesn't seem to work; when nothing you do, works, what is a person supposed to do?

At least there's no eternal torture in "Hellfire" waiting for me, but there is judgment... Or maybe that's what I'm going through now, and that's why my life is so difficult, so miserable, and why everything I try fails?

I'll tell you what you do Pierdut, NOTHING. Let go, let go , LET GO. DO NOTHING. There is a reason we are admonished to:

Psalm 123:2 Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their masters, and as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait upon the Lord our God, until that he have mercy upon us.

Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

Isaiah 30:18 And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the Lord is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Stop trying to fix yourself. Just wait upon the Lord and make your petitions known to Him with thanksgiving. IN HIS TIME Pierdut. This is one of the hardest lessons for any of us to learn and I'm still learning it. We need to LET GO of trying to fix things ourselves, of trying to be in control and just WAIT UPON THE LORD.

Quote from: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 12:19:11 AM
I know that the Scriptures say that everyone will eventually be given immortality unable to ever die again... But I'm afraid that I'll spend eternity thinking about the life I never got to have and I'll just be depressed and miserable with no way out.

When I read this, I hear someone who is fixated on the world. Spend eternity thinking about "this life you never got?" What are you talking about? Life contains the experience of evil. Do you think its sunshine and roses for anyone? Let alone for those who are called by His name?

In Christ,
Alex
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: cjwood on December 04, 2013, 05:06:21 PM: pierdut, i give a damn. i understand the feeling of being locked in a prison without seeing any chance of parole. i also know for a fact through my own experience that the power needed to break down the bars of steel lies only with God Himself. through His Spirit. i have tried kicking down the walls of carnal confinement only to find i end up with brokenness because of my inability to do anything to obtain my own release.

you ARE blessed pierdut. evidence of that is in your own statement that you STILL believe there is a God and you continue to pray for mercy, forgiveness, and wisdom. it is okay to become frustrated. God understands that. He also still has you in His sights. His power IS stronger than anything that happens to us in our time on this earth. He will bring you through this time of your life. and yes, all the hard stuff and the failings you are experiencing are part of your judgement. and yes, it is all about attitude. but our attitude itself will not even change until God has caused it to be so. you can't even change your attitude on your own. if you could then that itself would be free will. and you already know that is a myth. we can't even remove the beast off the throne in our lives on our own. it is ALL of God. every bit of it.

keep remembering that God loves you and He is fighting for you. don't ever give up hope dear brother.

claudia
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Abednego on December 04, 2013, 07:20:32 PM: Hi Pierdut. There isn't much if anything I can add to what has already been said. I always pray for anyone when I run across a post like this. I know God doesn't allow anything "just because", but when I see people hurting my heart breaks just the same. Seeing people hurt is really starting to affect me. I can't wait to see what God is doing with that.

Don't lose heart. We all care what happens to you.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 11:04:11 PM: ............
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 04, 2013, 11:35:58 PM: ...........
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 05, 2013, 01:08:14 AM: Hi pierdut,

What everyone said to you is true you know, the understanding our brothers and sisters have to share is wonderful. I been pondering this question the past few weeks , has every song sung and their lyrics been given by God ?
Ask yourself how deep is Gods control over ones life ? Where do song writers get their lyric ? Where do they get each and every musical note from ? You can see where I’m going with this.

Its hard to understand sometimes because a don’t feel like a puppet but I’m am, I’m Gods puppet , His workmanship just as you are Pierdut For the first time in my life I understand the meaning of ( let go and let God ) but it has nothing to do with me but everything to do with God..

It has nothing to do with you either Pierdut for God is no respecter of persons, your no different than another, God has great timing, he’s never late, and he wont be late for you either.

I say, what your going through is ordained of God just like every musical note and their lyrics.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on December 05, 2013, 05:07:01 AM: Thank you Rick for sharing your personal story. My teen daughter and I are going through a particularly hard time in our lives and she is questioning why. I don't think I sounded half as convincing as I ought to, but reading your post has bolstered my beliefs.

Quote
Until then it's a process of beating your head against a brick wall. With God's help I'm starting to quit the banging of the head because it hurts too much.

Yes, it hurts too much. :'(

Thank you Arion, Kat, Alex and Claudia. So much wisdom and harmony in your words.

Abednego, as always, you write straight from the heart. :)

And Pierdut, well, how much you've changed already from your very first post to this last one! It's so refreshing to see how God is working in you, through you and for you.

Romans 8:28-31

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Stay encouraged brother, God is not finished with you, and us.

Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I can lift my head and look forward in hope.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 06, 2013, 01:39:46 PM: Quote from: loretta on November 26, 2013, 02:58:02 PM
Quote from: DougE6 on November 26, 2013, 01:40:24 PM

I don't think thinking...this was God's will for me to do this and so I had no choice...so I did it... is the productive approach.

I think that you are still preaching to the choir DougE. None of us here at BT, having understood and embraced the truths of the lake of fire, free-will and the sovereignty of God think this way - that I had no choice...so I did it. Ofcourse we know full well that He is the arranger and causer of circumstance and that we are the learner and the repenter and the one needing discipline and judgement. We wouldn't be here if we didn't.

We would still be in Babylon, but we're not.

You talk of productive approach and disobedient choices as if we are really free to choose. I remember something that Dave said in another thread long ago - I don't try to conform my life to the Bible, but use it to understand what's happening in my life - or something along those lines. None of us here are willful rebellious sinners using the free will argument as license to sin. But looking back we can see God's sovereign hand in our lives working for our good.

as if we are really free to choose

for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13)

We make the choices which God has willed for us to make. But if we say that we are not really free to choose, then I conclude God is forcing us to.

Philippians 2:18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.

How dare Paul tell the Philippians that THEY SHOULD! Didn't he know that they could not FREELY CHOOSE to be glad and rejoice with him? Clearly the Philippians were not glad and rejoicing with Paul. Why not? Because God was at the time working in them the unwillingness to be glad and rejoice. But why would Paul tell them "You should"?

I think we should not only be LOOKING BACK. We should also be looking before we do the deed and while we do the deed. Is, was, and will be.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on December 06, 2013, 04:50:52 PM: I don't see a problem that Paul said they should. He was inspired to give them instruction on how to live and act so was only being obedient in doing so. I should be glad and rejoice too but I know that doesn't always happen. Paul also knew that it was God who works in us but that shouldn't stop you from saying what you have to say as God uses us to get His word across. Tell people what they should be doing but know it's only God that can bring about the change as He wills and Paul knew that but then he also knew he had a message to deliver so was being obedient in doing so.

I recall Ray saying too that if your involved in things that you shouldn't be doing then you should just stop doing them and that's good advice from him but he also knew that you can only be set free if God sets you free but nothing wrong with being told what you should be doing. Of course we fail but we need to hear what is right and what is wrong otherwise our message is just do what you want as it doesn't matter as God will do what He wants. Even Christ said if you love me you would obey me.

Rhys
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rene on December 06, 2013, 05:14:20 PM: Quote from: theophilus on December 06, 2013, 01:39:46 PM

How dare Paul tell the Philippians that THEY SHOULD! Didn't he know that they could not FREELY CHOOSE to be glad and rejoice with him? Clearly the Philippians were not glad and rejoicing with Paul. Why not? Because God was at the time working in them the unwillingness to be glad and rejoice. But why would Paul tell them "You should"?

Yes, as Rhys said, Paul dared to say what he said to the Philippians because he was INSPIRED by God to ENCOURAGE his brethren. Paul wanted them to know that even if he was sacrificed (died) for the sake of their faith, it was God's will and therefore he (Paul) will be rejoicing at the Day of the Lord and they can rejoice with him.

Phil 2:16 - "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Phil 2:17 - "Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Phil 2:18 - "For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.

René
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on December 06, 2013, 06:50:08 PM: Here are a couple of emails, Ray had a way about explaining these things, that's why he was the teacher he was.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2510.0.html -----------

The subject of the Sovereignty of God (which by its nature completely demolishes any such thought as man having a will that is free to operate independently of God) is one of those unimaginably simple Truths that most can never wrap their mind around. I have explained it over and over and over and over, but few indeed could ever explain it.

The entire universe is under God's Sovereignty. NOTHING operates or works or functions or thinks or does ANYTHING independently of God and HIs Sovereignty. Therefore, from this fact, we know the following: [1] everthing that has ever happened was according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose. And we can look back and see what has happened realizing that all was in accord with that purpose, and [2] we can likewise know that everything that will yet happen will be according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose, but we CANNOT look forward and know what those things WILL BE; we can only seen what HAS BEEN.

Therefore you DON'T KNOW what God plans for your son in the immediate, intermediate, or long term future. Hence, if you want God to answer your prayers regarding your sons future, YOU WILL H-A-V-E TO PRAY!!

Don't try to second-guess God, now that you have a little spiritual knowledge. LIVE YOUR LIFE. Don't try to figure out things that you can or cannot do based on whether it may or may not be God's will for this or that. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD'S SPECIFIC WILL IS REGARDING THIS OR THAT, so don't try to live as though you do know. Since Phil. 4:4-7 is rather pathetic in the King James, I will read it from the Concordant Version.

"Be rejoicing in the Lord always! Again, I will declare, BE REJOICING! Let your lenience [moderation] be known to all men: the Lord is near. Do not worry about anything, but IN EVERYTHING, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, LET YOUR REQUESTS BE MADE KNOWN TO GOD [don't hold back by second-guessing God and thinking, 'what's the use?'] and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men. God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.

Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.

Here is what the Scriptures say

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 06, 2013, 11:28:02 PM: No doubt I should be reading the E mails made available from Ray, so much understanding in them. Thanks Kat for putting them out there for all to read. :)

Loretta recalled something Dave had said in a prior post and shared that with us all, which when I read it blew me away and its this ( I don't try to conform my life to the Bible, but use it to understand what's happening in my life)

That one statement speaks volumes to me. ;)

Peace and love to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 04:59:41 AM: ..........
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on December 07, 2013, 08:17:12 AM: Quote from: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 04:59:41 AM
That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts. Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile. ;)

But not a day longer than the Lord wills! :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 07, 2013, 10:51:16 AM: Hi Pierdut

You said ( Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life? ) I’m not sure about that statement, To me its about God and what He’s doing, in my life, God does not love me because I’m something special on my own but only because He chooses to love me.

The entire universe proceeds from our Creator, God does not need me, there is nothing I can possibly do for God, there is nothing I can give God, he owns the thousand cattle on the hill he owns everything.

Guess what I’m trying to say is, its all about God , its about Gods love for us, its about Gods forgiveness towards us through Christ, its about what God is doing for us not what we are doing for Him.

All of us have to go through what God wants us to go through, I once heard that God sees us as we will be, not as we are, not sure how true that is. Maybe we human being who were created in vanity should remember God made us this way for a grand purpose and the outcome would not be so grand if God made us any other way.

Its better if one does not question God, for His understanding surpasses all understanding. I guess God can cause one to see their cup as half full or half empty but its all for a grand purpose and a beautiful ending for every human being that ever was ,is and will be till His 2nd coming.

No matter how cloudy the day may be , above the clouds is pure sunshine my friend and God is going to get us there , everyone of us. :)

Peace and love to all
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 03:07:15 PM: Quote from: loretta on December 07, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
Quote from: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 04:59:41 AM
That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts. Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile. ;)

But not a day longer than the Lord wills! :)

That wasn't intended as any kind of a "pity party," I was just being blunt. If the bible had nothing in it for you, why care about it? It'd be like going to work everyday for someone else, he gets your paycheck but you do all the work. Would you still go to work? No, of course not.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 03:12:13 PM: Quote from: Rick on December 07, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
Hi Pierdut

You said ( Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life? ) I’m not sure about that statement, To me its about God and what He’s doing, in my life, God does not love me because I’m something special on my own but only because He chooses to love me.

The entire universe proceeds from our Creator, God does not need me, there is nothing I can possibly do for God, there is nothing I can give God, he owns the thousand cattle on the hill he owns everything.

Guess what I’m trying to say is, its all about God , its about Gods love for us, its about Gods forgiveness towards us through Christ, its about what God is doing for us not what we are doing for Him.

All of us have to go through what God wants us to go through, I once heard that God sees us as we will be, not as we are, not sure how true that is. Maybe we human being who were created in vanity should remember God made us this way for a grand purpose and the outcome would not be so grand if God made us any other way.

Its better if one does not question God, for His understanding surpasses all understanding. I guess God can cause one to see their cup as half full or half empty but its all for a grand purpose and a beautiful ending for every human being that ever was ,is and will be till His 2nd coming.

No matter how cloudy the day may be , above the clouds is pure sunshine my friend and God is going to get us there , everyone of us. :)

Peace and love to all

Rick, even in your response to me you made my point: there is something in it For You, and that's why you care about it.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 07, 2013, 05:07:30 PM: Hi Pierdut.

Think about Rays detractors , I read the same papers they read and believed what I read where as others read the same papers of Ray’s that I read and they believed them not.

Why is that? Am I smarter than they are ? I doubt it, am I better than they are ? I doubt it. So what’s the difference then? :-\

If God keeps me in the dark on something ,then everyone can explain it to me a thousand times and I’m not going to understand. :(

Its like Isaiah said ( but Lord who has believed our report ) faith comes from God, grace comes from God , understanding comes from God . You don’t worry over things you do understand , why worry over things you don’t understand ? ;)

You will understand what you need to understand when God says you’ll understand, and it’s the same for me and everyone else. ::)

Look at the incredible understanding God gave to Ray, I certainly don’t have that mans understanding, no where’s near rays understanding but look at the understanding I have compared to the understanding of Christendom. :o

What’s in it for me is liberation from this body of death through sin and knowing one day I shall be perfect even as my heavenly Father is perfect. :) :) :)

Peace and love to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on December 07, 2013, 06:25:02 PM: Quote from: loretta on December 07, 2013, 08:17:12 AM
Quote from: Pierdut on December 07, 2013, 04:59:41 AM
That's exactly why I am here, to try and understand what is happening in my life... Yet some had a problem with that; accusing me of having too many "I's" in my posts. Well, excuse me, but the bible is only relevant to me insofar as I am concerned. Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life?

Ok Pierdut, we'll let you have your pity party for awhile. ;)

But not a day longer than the Lord wills! :)

I cannot fault Pierdut for being honest and pragmatic.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on December 07, 2013, 11:03:31 PM: Pierdut, conversion is such a painful process. I can't be 100% sure "this" is your time, but since I believe it happens to everybody, and that you aren't "here" by accident, it may well be. One day the scales will tip and what is easy now will become more difficult and what is difficult now will become more easy.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on December 08, 2013, 01:55:21 AM: Just a side-note. I had to look back and see what I actually said. For what it's worth, this was it:

"I've been benefited from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it."

Anyway, don't follow me...I'm just another guy on the internet. The statement stands, however, as true for me.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 09, 2013, 12:40:05 AM: Hi Dave

Dave , your statement ( "I've been benefitted from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it.)

when I had read your statement I had substituted the word spirit for explain and the word beast for conform.

That’s where it’s at for me, when the spirit ( explain ) does it in us, then the beast ( conform) works less in us, that’s the dying of the beast in us.

I’m seeing it much deeper than I’m saying it , I wish I were and articulate man so I could express my thoughts completely but you made the statement, I assume you know my meaning and the depth thereof .

I see God as completely sovereign in all things, nothing happens, that has not been ordained by God from the beginning .

God makes one vessel a vessel of honor and another vessel a vessel of dishonor and neither vessel has anything to do with what they shall be.

Every person be it a believer or non believer lives out their life with every deed and word given them by God through every circumstance they experience.

When Paul the apostle said with his mind he serves the law of God but with his flesh the law of sin, it really shows me the sovereignty of God in all things. I find sin to be a humbling thing in my life knowing I have not the ability to live up to the standards of God.

Sometimes I see a thread as a field with a bury treasure in it, known as truth. Jesus said if you know the truth it will set you free. I’m understanding for the first time in my life the freedom Christ was talking about was freedom from the beast deceiving me, thinking I am the ruler of my life, that I am sovereign.

Nothing takes God by surprise seeing where He knows the ends from the beginning because He ordained all things right down to the person who lights up a cigarette.

Just wanted you to know, I found a buried treasure ,thank you. :)

Peace and love to all. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 09, 2013, 11:21:33 PM: Quote from: Rick on December 09, 2013, 12:40:05 AM
Hi Dave

Dave , your statement ( "I've been benefitted from Scripture more by having it EXPLAIN my life to me, than by trying to "CONFORM" my life to it.)

when I had read your statement I had substituted the word spirit for explain and the word beast for conform.

That’s where it’s at for me, when the spirit ( explain ) does it in us, then the beast ( conform) works less in us, that’s the dying of the beast in us.

I’m seeing it much deeper than I’m saying it , I wish I were and articulate man so I could express my thoughts completely but you made the statement, I assume you know my meaning and the depth thereof .

I see God as completely sovereign in all things, nothing happens, that has not been ordained by God from the beginning .

God makes one vessel a vessel of honor and another vessel a vessel of dishonor and neither vessel has anything to do with what they shall be.

Every person be it a believer or non believer lives out their life with every deed and word given them by God through every circumstance they experience.

When Paul the apostle said with his mind he serves the law of God but with his flesh the law of sin, it really shows me the sovereignty of God in all things. I find sin to be a humbling thing in my life knowing I have not the ability to live up to the standards of God.

Sometimes I see a thread as a field with a bury treasure in it, known as truth. Jesus said if you know the truth it will set you free. I’m understanding for the first time in my life the freedom Christ was talking about was freedom from the beast deceiving me, thinking I am the ruler of my life, that I am sovereign.

Nothing takes God by surprise seeing where He knows the ends from the beginning because He ordained all things right down to the person who lights up a cigarette.

Just wanted you to know, I found a buried treasure ,thank you. :)

Peace and love to all. :)

Rick, if it really is like that, then every failure in my life, every disappointment, everything that I wish would have gone another way could not have. So my life could not have been any different; everything was inevitable. And I am referring here to the bad stuff as no one wishes the good that they've experienced to not come about.

I am not sure that it is like that though. I was convinced at one point, but if that really is the case then I can't blame only myself, because it couldn't have been avoided. And that would also mean that my life will continue to be miserable with no hope of breaking-free from it.

What I can't make sense of is why would God lead me to see these things if I'm just a 'vessel of dishonor' created to live a horrible life?

Maybe we do have multiple paths in life, and I kept making the wrong choices? I just find it so unfair that something I wish could have been different could not have been, but was inevitable. Then that leads to other questions.

Ray said that even a person that commits suicide was destined to do so because of the circumstances that lead to it -- it couldn't have been prevented. So that was that person's lot in life. Seems so unfair. Some have it good, others bad, and that it was God who predetermined what kind of a life each person would have, without the unlucky ones being able to do anything about it.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 10, 2013, 12:19:26 AM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on December 07, 2013, 11:03:31 PM
Pierdut, conversion is such a painful process. I can't be 100% sure "this" is your time, but since I believe it happens to everybody, and that you aren't "here" by accident, it may well be. One day the scales will tip and what is easy now will become more difficult and what is difficult now will become more easy.

Dave, I understand what you're saying, and I don't know if what I'm going through is my "conversion," but it is very painful. It is also like a tug of war; one day I feel closer to God; I pray and try to do better. Stop doing some bad things, start doing some good things. Then I utterly fail and go back to doing bad things again. And with me it's even thoughts in my head, or cruel words I say. Shouldn't "conversion" be like a one direction thing, instead of all this back and forth? I honestly don't know.

If what Ray taught is true, then everything that is happening is according to God's preordained purpose and plan. And the outcome too is already determined -- whichever way it will go.

I need to think deeply about these things, as I'm not so sure that it is quite like that anymore.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on December 10, 2013, 12:39:10 AM: Pierdut, you are only looking at how things have come to be to this point... you do not know what is yet to come for you are anybody else. The thing is I believe we are only in the first stages of God's plan... how can you judge God as "unfair" when you do not know what is yet to come?

Even if a person's life ends in this age as a vessel of dishonor, you do not know what God has already prepared for the ages to come. Judgment yes, but that is for correcting and cleansing... what about beyond that? Could it be that the more one suffers now, the more joy one may eventually feel later? Perhaps, and we certainly cannot limit God or think that this experience of good and evil does not have a good purpose.

You have reached a low point and beginning to realize man (you, me, everybody) is carnal and incapable of good, and to weak to resist sin. This hopefully is an end, of sorts, of this "old man."

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22 For you ought to put off the old man (according to your way of living before) who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
v. 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

We all need that dark backdrop/experience of trying to do good and failing, now that you know you can't save yourself God can show you the way of righteousness... why would you resist this, you do not know what your destiny is. This is a process, change can happen degree by degree, a little at a time. We may not even notice we are growing till we look back one day and realize how much we have.

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground. For it is time to seek Jehovah, until He comes and rains righteousness on you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on December 10, 2013, 10:08:33 AM: Quote from: Pierdut on December 10, 2013, 12:19:26 AM

Maybe we do have multiple paths in life, and I kept making the wrong choices? I just find it so unfair that something I wish could have been different could not have been, but was inevitable. Then that leads to other questions.

I can identify with that. I was always aware of this scripture:

Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But, at the same time I know that my sins separate me from God. I thought that although the above scripture is true that there was yet one exception. The exception being that if I so something wrong or miss God in the process that I could separate myself from the love of God, thereby putting the emphasis on me doing it right.

What a wonderful revelation to understand that I don't have that power. Nothing can separate me from the love of God and that includes myself and my own stupid choice that I make. Your not going to miss God in the process and coming to the understanding that not even YOU can get in the way of his plan for you is pretty freeing. Everything is happening for a purpose and a reason and you are right on time and where God wants you to be in the process. Once you get that understanding it takes the pressure off of you, Gods timing in your life can't be derailed.....NOT EVEN BY YOU!!
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: AwesomeSavior on December 10, 2013, 01:44:34 PM: Pierdut:

As Ray has said.. It is very, very difficult getting saved. I understand your feelings, because I am going through the same process. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. To me, it has been so difficult that at times it has felt like coming undone, or at my "wit's end". However, it is just part of this difficult "Way". We were created by God, initially, as desperately weak and filled with deceit. To go from that point into the image of Christ takes so much time. Remember what Peter said? "Beloved, think it not STRANGE concerning the fiery trial which IS to try you, as though some STRANGE thing has happened unto you". We ARE going to think these circumstances in our lives are strange, but God is telling and reassuring us to NOT think this way. It's just part of the "long journey into a far country", as Jesus said in one of His parables, that's all. So very few will travel this journey in THIS lifetime. Pray to God everyday for His wisdom and mercy in your struggles, as I do the same. His Will be done. :)
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 10, 2013, 10:43:18 PM: Hi Pierdut

I don’t believe anyone’s life can be anything besides what it was ordained to be. Please remember we are a piece of clay in the hands of the potter ( God ) . It is God who has determined what each persons life should be.

Now God is working in your life but I think maybe you feel insecure because of sins you commit. God knows the very first sin I committed , He knows the sins I commit now and He also knows the last sin I will commit seconds before my death.

I do not have the ability to live up to the standards of God nor does anyone else either. Because we have not the ability to live up to the standards of God and come to understand that, then we realize , a war is going on within us.

I believe that this war I speak of is taking place inside of you Pierdut and its driving you crazy as it also did me, Now your on the threshold of trusting Christ in a greater degree.

God gave Ray some incredible insight to share with the world and we who understand God’s truths through Rays papers will experience a war going on within. Its like we become two rather than one and the two are always warring.

In the beginning for me, although I had the truth, I was still trusting in me rather than Christ. Oh I trusted Christ for salvation but me to clean my act up, ( LOL) I discovered I don’t have the ability to live up to God’s standards.

Everything in Rays papers leads me to the ultimate truth, which is trusting in Christ to do for us what we can not do for ourselves. However it’s in God’s time Pierdut,.

What your going through is what God intended for you to go through. As time goes on Christ will cause you to trust Him more and more with the passing of each day and night. Just remember its all in God’s time. Say Pierdut,have you considered your going through the lake of fire and things are getting burned up?

Peace and love to all. ???
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 16, 2013, 02:47:49 AM: Rick, I believe that I am one of those that can not be forgiven in this age (nor the age to come). I would pray wholeheartedly to God for forgiveness, and his mercy and grace, and I would go right back to sinning again as if I didn't even believe there was a God, or didn't care. And I tend to be happier during that time than when I'm humble and believing and praying. Problem is, I can't stick to disbelieving in God any longer than I can stick to believing in Him again. My mind is a mess of all sorts of emotions and flashbacks, and regrets, and beliefs; beliefs which are not in accord with one another, and I have trouble choosing and sticking to just one thing. Yes, it really is a war within. And it's the same way with continuing to live or not. I go back and forth between marching on and putting an end to it.

I have prayed for peace of mind, and stability, and God's help, but it seems as though God won't help me. I have sinned willingly after coming unto a knowledge of these things about God, and as the Scriptures say - there remains no more sacrifice for that. That's what it seems like; but then, why do I still pray? A few years ago I couldn't have prayed even if I tried, because I lacked all faith, and completely disbelieved in God. Now I pray and believe He exists, but it seems like my prayers are unwanted, and that I'm praying in vain.

I am insecure about a lot of things, but failing to live up to God's standards isn't one of them.

Was re-reading those papers about "free-will," and I believe that I don't have such a power, or ability to make uncaused choices or to thwart God's plan, purpose, or intention. And that's mainly why I do pray, because I am (therefore) dependent on God for everything. I prayed that His will be done, no matter what the outcome might be. And then I'd go right back to having doubt, and doing those things I wanted to no longer do (envy, strife, hatred, etc., etc., etc.,..).

So what then is the solution?
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Rhys 🕊 on December 16, 2013, 03:25:06 AM: You can't set yourself free......give it up, it's not going to happen

John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

If the son sets you free then your free but only then and that's God's will. I have experienced that in areas of my life but not every area. All I could do is pray and leave it up to Him.

God does it His way and not ours. This passage helps me a lot when I'm struggling

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

It's not that God will not allow us to fail but it's HE CAN"T FAIL. We need to see that from His word and Ray covered it well.

You will be set free by His doing when you come to hate those things and you won't want to do them, that's what I've experienced. I wish it was in all areas but that day will come too........God will see to that.

I want to be 100% totally free now but it doesn't happen that way. I can't choose that but I can ask.

Been thinking recently about rejoice in the Lord always and yet it seems hard to do that but it becomes easier now as I realise it His work in me and even if it doesn't seem great in what is going on at times I know He is doing His will. His perfecting is being done as He wills so I rejoice because God is awesome no matter how I feel at the time.

Rhys
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 16, 2013, 11:30:42 AM: Hi pierdut

When I read your last reply, I felt as if I were the author of those words I read. Your words are heart felt to me as I can relate to them wholeheartedly.

I asked this question to God through out the years, If I live for 80 years and in those 80 years I was so evil so wicked and hateful , would it be fair to make me burn for more than the 80 years I made people suffer with my wickedness?

It always seemed to me that God was in and out of my life my whole life. I always felt condemned, never measuring up, always missing the mark. I tried to stop sinning and did ok for a day or two but right back to it again.

I prayed to God to take those sins out of my life that I felt would condemn me but to no avail. So I kept running away from God my whole life because of sin.

I am who I am and what I am and I can’t change me for nothing, the pull of sin is greater than any strength I have in me to be victorious over sin and I conceded that God is right and I am wrong and there is nothing I can do about it.

After years of living with this fear God answered my question through ( Bible truths )
The reason or cause that lead me to this site was a great fear I had most of my life, and that fear was going to HELL and burning forever without any hope. ( Thank you Christendom for the fear trip )
Today, because of B.T. I understand why I could never free will myself out of sin, I also come to understand that God is not looking to wack me with a baseball bat or send me to hell because of sin.

God wants me to have and experience of good and evil in this life because I / we are being made in the image of God. ( see the man has become like us knowing good and evil ). Today I believe if God leaves one thing up to me to get saved then salvation is not possible for me.

Sometimes I look at myself and say what does God see in me? Once there was a time I just did what I did and never thought twice about it, now not always so, I have regrets for some things and feel remorse for some things.

God made me in vanity, you know, to spiritually weak to obey the laws of God, I want to obey Gods laws , I want to do the right things in life , I want to be perfect but I’m not.

Maybe God won’t forgive me in this life, maybe not even the next life to come but somewhere in the future God will forgive me, or maybe God will forgive me in this life but I don’t really know.

Its up to God, it always was, there is nothing I can do about me, only God can change me, and so I wait on the Lord and I know I will be forgiven at some point in the future . Thank you Jesus.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on December 16, 2013, 12:07:46 PM: The REASON there is no more sacrifice for sins is BECAUSE there has already been a sacrifice for sins...ONCE and FOR ALL. Judgement is not there because we haven't been forgiven. Judgement is there because we haven't learned righteousness. The Lake of Fire is in the PRESENCE of the LAMB--the One slain for the forgiveness of sin.

As Ray said, the first 'thing' that God does with sin in our lives is FORGIVENESS. It is AFTER forgiveness that repentance comes, and after repentance that cleansing comes. Do you think God has it backwards? What we have to do is BELIEVE, and that is what gets us started.

I did not mention in my earlier post that these issues I've dealt with are not totally gone. It's just that a tipping point has been reached where 1. I care. and 2. they no longer are defining factors in my life, but 'lapses' meant to keep me humble.

http://bible-truths.com/unpardon.html

and an excerpt:

But the main thing I would tell you, Kevin, is that if you FEAR that you might have committed this sin, it is actually evidence THAT YOU HAVE NOT committed this sin. Those who blaspheme the holy spirit HAVE NO CONSCIENCE about their sin and therefore don't even care. Since you care and are concerned it is proof that God has given you a heart that wants to do right. So follow God's leadings in your life and these feelings of guilt will leave you.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Kat on December 16, 2013, 12:36:36 PM: Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
v. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
v. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

You have made it here to BT Pierdut, you have come to the truth, you are at the Door (Christ; John 10:7, 9)... so how do you/we "take My (Christ's) yoke"?

John 3:30 He (Christ within us) must increase, but I must decrease.

Luke 10:27 So He answered and said, ""You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and "your neighbor as yourself."

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

You are at the Door, you are at a place that very very very few in history have ever reached... you did not get yourself where you are, God did, so why not believe that God could bring you to completion in Christ? You think you're not good enough... ha ha, none of us are, in any way, the elect are the "base... foolish things... that no flesh should glory." Now that's something any of us can believe, even as Paul did, "I am the foremost of sinners."

So take heart, you are in good company, we all have had to have our eyes opened to what this world along with our carnal desires is all about, it's an experience in good and EVIL, but's it's temporary! It's actually a great relief to come to see things (this world) for what they are, so to take (be given) His yoke is such a blessing and then we can truly rest in Him.

Luke 9:23 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
v. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.
v. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?

Rom 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
v. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
v. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.
v. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 16, 2013, 03:29:29 PM: Hi Dave,

Thanks for the correction as I did not see it as you had said it. The sin issue has already been dealt with once and for all, its about learning righteousness here and now but I must say its not so easy giving up those things that are so deeply rooted in us that God refers to as sin.

The truth you said, if told in any church, would either close their doors or get you thrown out, I sadly believe it’s the latter.

I enjoy learning the real truth about God rather than that which I was once taught, however I feel before I can learn righteousness I need to unlearn all the things I was taught about God from early youth.

I see with God, it’s a little here and a little there for me, replace one lie with the truth here and another there. Its quite fascinating to come out from the deception and into the glorious truth a little at a time.

Your reminder that the sin issue has already been dealt with has lifted me in spirit, I feel renewed after reading your reply.

Bible truth to me is indeed second to none and such a wonderful place to retreat, to learn , and to grow.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on December 16, 2013, 04:51:31 PM: Pierdut;

When I read your latest comments what popped into my mind is the exact same thing that Dave wrote. Not trying to jack up my post count but it bears repeating...

But the main thing I would tell you, Kevin, is that if you FEAR that you might have committed this sin, it is actually evidence THAT YOU HAVE NOT committed this sin. Those who blaspheme the holy spirit HAVE NO CONSCIENCE about their sin and therefore don't even care. Since you care and are concerned it is proof that God has given you a heart that wants to do right. So follow God's leadings in your life and these feelings of guilt will leave you.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: cjwood on December 17, 2013, 02:12:28 PM: ...Its quite fascinating to come out from the deception and into the glorious truth a little at a time.

:) :)

claudia
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: cjwood on December 17, 2013, 11:20:20 PM: i found some Scripture that blows at the sand of the free-will myth, and also a stark reminder that no matter what we are each going through, it is ALL of God's doing. blowing away more sand from babylon's large dunes.

ecclesiastes 7:13-14 (james moffatt translation)
13. Ponder the doings of God: who can straighten what He twists? 14. In prosperous days enjoy yourself, but in evil days ponder this, that the one is the doing of God as well as the other -- all to keep man from knowing what is to happen.

claudia
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 18, 2013, 01:16:03 AM: Hi Claudia,

ecclesiastes 7:13-14 (james moffatt translation)
13. Ponder the doings of God: who can straighten what He twists? 14. In prosperous days enjoy yourself, but in evil days ponder this, that the one is the doing of God as well as the other -- all to keep man from knowing what is to happen.

A second witness

It’s not in man to direct his own footsteps.

I use to wonder what is God’s will for my life, what does God want me to do and how am I to know I’m doing what God wants me to do with certainty, I discovered I been doing God’s will all along the day I discovered I do not have free will and its not in man to direct his own footsteps.

As I start to understand God’s dealings with His creatures, life seems to make a little more sense to me and the gray areas of life start to disappear like the morning dew.

Every knee shall bend every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.

Thanks Claudia for that scripture.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 19, 2013, 02:13:50 PM: Quote from: Rick on December 07, 2013, 10:51:16 AM
Hi Pierdut

You said ( Why would I care about any of this if it were not about me and my life? ) I’m not sure about that statement, To me its about God and what He’s doing, in my life, God does not love me because I’m something special on my own but only because He chooses to love me.

The entire universe proceeds from our Creator, God does not need me, there is nothing I can possibly do for God, there is nothing I can give God, he owns the thousand cattle on the hill he owns everything.

Peace and love to all

God may not need any of us but He chose to give us existence because He wants sons and daughters that possess the character of their Heavenly Father. The reason why His will is totally sovereign over our lives is so He will have all He has purposed for us to come to pass.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 19, 2013, 02:36:05 PM: Quote from: Kat on December 06, 2013, 06:50:08 PM

Here are a couple of emails, Ray had a way about explaining these things, that's why he was the teacher he was.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2510.0.html -----------

The subject of the Sovereignty of God (which by its nature completely demolishes any such thought as man having a will that is free to operate independently of God) is one of those unimaginably simple Truths that most can never wrap their mind around. I have explained it over and over and over and over, but few indeed could ever explain it.

The entire universe is under God's Sovereignty. NOTHING operates or works or functions or thinks or does ANYTHING independently of God and HIs Sovereignty. Therefore, from this fact, we know the following: [1] everthing that has ever happened was according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose. And we can look back and see what has happened realizing that all was in accord with that purpose, and [2] we can likewise know that everything that will yet happen will be according to God's pre-ordained, foreknown plan and purpose, but we CANNOT look forward and know what those things WILL BE; we can only seen what HAS BEEN.

Therefore you DON'T KNOW what God plans for your son in the immediate, intermediate, or long term future. Hence, if you want God to answer your prayers regarding your sons future, YOU WILL H-A-V-E TO PRAY!!

Don't try to second-guess God, now that you have a little spiritual knowledge. LIVE YOUR LIFE. Don't try to figure out things that you can or cannot do based on whether it may or may not be God's will for this or that. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD'S SPECIFIC WILL IS REGARDING THIS OR THAT, so don't try to live as though you do know. Since Phil. 4:4-7 is rather pathetic in the King James, I will read it from the Concordant Version.

"Be rejoicing in the Lord always! Again, I will declare, BE REJOICING! Let your lenience [moderation] be known to all men: the Lord is near. Do not worry about anything, but IN EVERYTHING, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, LET YOUR REQUESTS BE MADE KNOWN TO GOD [don't hold back by second-guessing God and thinking, 'what's the use?'] and the peace of God, that is superior to every frame of mind, shall be garrisoning your hearts and your apprehensions in Christ Jesus."

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men. God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.

Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.

Here is what the Scriptures say

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you for your input Kat. I think some of the posters come across as having the attitude of "Well I do what I do because I have no free will". I might be wrong. At any rate, I think that we should live our lives, as Paul said to the Phillipians, not worrying ABOUT ANYTHING--not even about the fact that we have no free will.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: microlink on December 19, 2013, 06:55:48 PM: Quote from: cjwood on December 17, 2013, 11:20:20 PM
i found some Scripture that blows at the sand of the free-will myth, and also a stark reminder that no matter what we are each going through, it is ALL of God's doing. blowing away more sand from babylon's large dunes.

ecclesiastes 7:13-14 (james moffatt translation)
13. Ponder the doings of God: who can straighten what He twists? 14. In prosperous days enjoy yourself, but in evil days ponder this, that the one is the doing of God as well as the other -- all to keep man from knowing what is to happen.

claudia

Very well said and thanks for the scripture in Eccles.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 19, 2013, 08:38:01 PM: Hi Theophitus,

( I think some of the posters come across as having the attitude of "Well I do what I do because I have no free will". )

Not having free will is exactly why some of the posters come across as having the attitude of "Well I do what I do because I have no free will"

It’s a learning process where some have greater understanding than others but wherever we are, its where God wants us or intended for us to be right at that precise moment at that precise time on that precise day and year.

Its so fascinating to me how God controls us so fully and complete yet we think or feel its us doing it but in reality its God.

The more I get my arms around this no free will thing the greater my fascination becomes, its totally incredible to me how great God is.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 20, 2013, 11:39:32 AM: Quote from: Rick on December 19, 2013, 08:38:01 PM
Hi Theophitus,

( I think some of the posters come across as having the attitude of "Well I do what I do because I have no free will". )

Not having free will is exactly why some of the posters come across as having the attitude of "Well I do what I do because I have no free will"

It’s a learning process where some have greater understanding than others but wherever we are, its where God wants us or intended for us to be right at that precise moment at that precise time on that precise day and year.

Its so fascinating to me how God controls us so fully and complete yet we think or feel its us doing it but in reality its God.

The more I get my arms around this no free will thing the greater my fascination becomes, its totally incredible to me how great God is.

Hello Rick, maybe I didn't make myself clear. I am talking about an attitude that is defeatist or that doesn't acknowledge any participation, not about the realization that we have no free will. To give you an example, a husband cheats on his wife. The wife is devastated, the kids are torn, etc, etc. Say the husband knows that he has no free will. The husband explains to his wife that he had no choice in the matter. He did what he did because he has no free will. If anyone, God should be blamed since He was the one directing his steps. You wouldn't like to be the wife in this example listening to her husband "excuse", would you? Neither would I!

I, like everyone else, battle the pulls of my flesh. But if I said, hey I could very well fornicate since this is what my flesh would like to do; I'll just do it since I am not free to not sin. No one could blame me; if anyone did, I would pull out God's sovereignty card!

I know it's a learning process, one through which God instructs us and we either do or we don't
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 20, 2013, 05:41:44 PM: Hi Theophilus,

Your example is something I been dwelling on these past few weeks not about someone committing adultery but rather are we given the opportunity to travel on two paths in this life, both of which are of God but not always by God ?

Lets keep it simple and use your example about the man who has committed adultery, The man loves his wife but has and issue with lust of women, He knows inwardly to be with a women outside of his wife is wrong and so now he is confronted with a choice.

Is his life predestine on one path to say no, and on the other path to say yes ? Can he choose of his own will which is subjected to Gods will to take either path ?

I think of a man who drinks to the point where its causing issues in his relationship with his wife and his drinking is causing problems on the job, his wife threatens to leave him if he continues drinking all the time, his boss threatens to fire him.

The man knows he will loose everything in his life and will become devastated if he continues on this path of drinking.

The logical thing to do is stop drinking immediately however he continues to drink, why does he keep drinking ?

Is there another force at play here ? Or does he has a choice to take the other path which is alcohol free ?

These two paths make much sense to me but I have not found it in Rays papers yet, I’m hoping Ray has written something along these lines.

I understand what your meaning is about a defeatist attitude and I know the beast within can be quite deceiving and many times I ask myself, why do I do the things I do ?

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak as the good book says and sometimes I wonder if the flesh is to weak to take the other path, the right path.

I remember Elmer Fudd , I think that was the name but he always said ( what a terrible web we weave for ourselves )

Thank you Theopilus for the correction.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Pierdut on December 20, 2013, 11:25:50 PM: Quote from: Rick on December 20, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
Hi Theophilus,

Your example is something I been dwelling on these past few weeks not about someone committing adultery but rather are we given the opportunity to travel on two paths in this life, both of which are of God but not always by God ?

Lets keep it simple and use your example about the man who has committed adultery, The man loves his wife but has and issue with lust of women, He knows inwardly to be with a women outside of his wife is wrong and so now he is confronted with a choice.

Is his life predestine on one path to say no, and on the other path to say yes ? Can he choose of his own will which is subjected to Gods will to take either path ?

I think of a man who drinks to the point where its causing issues in his relationship with his wife and his drinking is causing problems on the job, his wife threatens to leave him if he continues drinking all the time, his boss threatens to fire him.

The man knows he will loose everything in his life and will become devastated if he continues on this path of drinking.

The logical thing to do is stop drinking immediately however he continues to drink, why does he keep drinking ?

Is there another force at play here ? Or does he has a choice to take the other path which is alcohol free ?

These two paths make much sense to me but I have not found it in Rays papers yet, I’m hoping Ray has written something along these lines.

I understand what your meaning is about a defeatist attitude and I know the beast within can be quite deceiving and many times I ask myself, why do I do the things I do ?

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak as the good book says and sometimes I wonder if the flesh is to weak to take the other path, the right path.

I remember Elmer Fudd , I think that was the name but he always said ( what a terrible web we weave for ourselves )

Thank you Theopilus for the correction.

Peace and love to all.

Rick,

Ray taught that there is only one way that every event in a person's life will go, and God already knows how it will turn out, and so there are no multiple paths (or two paths in life).

I thought about this myself, because had a certain event in my life been within the realm of possibility to have turned out another way, then that would have made sense to me in regards to previous events which lead to my relocation in another state after the circumstances that happened in my life which lead me there. But if it could have only turned out the way it did, then I have trouble figuring out the reasons for those 3 years of my life.

Maybe it was to get me away from the people I was hanging out with here; and then the events that happened there, especially if they could have only turned out the way they did, is what God really used to hurt me deeply.

What at first seemed like a really good thing, and I even thought that that's why God brought me to this state, to be with this person -- turned out to be one of the worst things that's ever happened to me... And that's saying a lot.

I often wish that things could have turned out differently, but I don't think that they could have. Or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: arion on December 21, 2013, 09:17:05 AM: Quote from: Pierdut on December 20, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
I often wish that things could have turned out differently, but I don't think that they could have. Or am I wrong?

Your right. If things could of turned out differently than they did then it nullifies the sovereignty of God. He clearly states that He knows the beginning and the ending and that He is the potter and we are the clay. If there are truly multiple ways a situation can turn out and we are the ones who decide and not God then not even God himself could know the way we are going to go. If God knows in advance that we are going to make choice 'A', then how are we free to make choice 'B'? And yet God doesn't force us to do anything. We choose what we desire and yet God crafts the circumstances that cause us to choose as we do. Like Ray has said we are accountable to God for the choices we make yet in the end God is responsible.

When I was younger I had wished that I made different choices in life. Now that I'm getting older, I can look behind me and see that the things that happened were a necessary part of my development. I have yet to understand why many things had to happen the way that they did but I trust that God knew what He was doing even if I didn't. I'm sure that all of us can share many painful things that have happened along the journey of life and we have yet to understand how anything good can come out of them or why they were necessary. But it gives me great peace of mind to know that my choices are already predetermined. Not that it absolves any accountability for my choices but the peace comes from knowing that nothing I do can screw up God's plan for me. That was always my chief worry. Although I understood;

Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I thought that the one exception to that is that I could choose the wrong path for myself and screw up God's plans for me. I thought that after all if I make the wrong choices and mess up God's plan for me then that is my fault and not God's fault. What a relief to know that even with my own bumbling and inept actions at times that not even I have the power to alter God's plans and timetable for me.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: loretta on December 21, 2013, 09:55:36 AM: Quote from: theophilus on December 20, 2013, 11:39:32 AM

To give you an example, a husband cheats on his wife. The wife is devastated, the kids are torn, etc, etc. Say the husband knows that he has no free will. The husband explains to his wife that he had no choice in the matter. He did what he did because he has no free will. If anyone, God should be blamed since He was the one directing his steps. You wouldn't like to be the wife in this example listening to her husband "excuse", would you? Neither would I!

Neither would I. But it's this free-will thing and understanding the absolute sovereignty of God that has helped me weather a recent crisis that was building up in my marriage. Not that I am making any excuses for his behavior (or mine), nor is he, but it has kept me from overreacting (no free-will there either! :) ). My attitude right now is one of grace and understanding while showing tough love (if you knew me, this is completely alien to me!). God has taken me through the twists and turns of life that has brought me to this point in my life and I really don't know how life is going to turn out on the morrow. As I was so kindly reminded, it helps to just take one day at a time.

Quote from: Pierdut on December 20, 2013, 11:25:50 PM

Ray taught that there is only one way that every event in a person's life will go, and God already knows how it will turn out, and so there are no multiple paths (or two paths in life).

Pierdut is right, there are no two paths in life. Yes, we are constantly faced with multiple choices, but because of where we are at that particular time in our life, hemmed in by the circumstances caused by God on the one hand and our un-regenerate selves on the other, we can and do make only one choice, that God knew (caused) all along we would make. Yeah with our limited vision, sometimes it does seem that some choices are good, while others are bad, but these are the twists and turns that God uses to change us, to mold us, to purge us, to renew us, to bring us to a particular place.

Yes, we do weave our own webs, terrible as it may seem, but God does provide the spiders silk.

Quote from: Arion on December 21, 2013, 09:17:05 AM

When I was younger I had wished that I made different choices in life. Now that I'm getting older, I can look behind me and see that the things that happened were a necessary part of my development.

But it gives me great peace of mind to know that my choices are already predetermined. Not that it absolves any accountability for my choices but the peace comes from knowing that nothing I do can screw up God's plan for me.

Yes, I am on God's timeplan, and that is so comforting.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 21, 2013, 02:23:44 PM: I find the learning process is not easy and timely, its amazing how truths I learned here, can be challenged with certain post I read. No doubt it takes time and thought blended with experience for truths to become deeply rooted.

I suppose its noble for one to think the ability is theirs to choose always, to do that which is right in God’s sight. However this line of thought no doubt leads back to Christendom where man or women reaches up to God.

I believe the things Ray has said or written not because Ray said it or wrote it but because Ray proved it through scripture using many scripture that cannot be disputed except by those who are not being dragged or drawn by God because the things of God are foolishness to the unbeliever.

I find in every post a vast difference in spiritual knowledge and I the least of such wonderful knowledge. I find within myself a profound thankfulness for those of you, my spiritual brothers and sisters who correct me directly or indirectly so as to keep my understanding moving forward in God’s truths.

There are certain post I read which leads me to believe I can through my own will even though my will is subjected to God’s will choose to do the right thing in every situation, I do go back and forth with such notions that somehow there is within myself this ability .

If such ability does exist, I have failed to find it in the course of my life. If one can reference the part in the lake of fire series or in any of Ray’s e-mails or anywhere on this site that proves to me through scripture that this ability does exist, please point it out to me.

I find examples given can be for me deceiving in that it leads me back to the ( who I am beast ).
No doubt all examples are given with good intention but any example given that would lead me to believe I can somehow change the will of God or go against the will of God in my life is just plain wrong as noble as it may sound.

My life is predestine and if predestine which part of predestine can I change ? Which sin can I not commit ? Which prayer can I not pray ? What word can I not speak ? Has God predestine a !/3 of my life or maybe !/2 my life or perhaps 2/3 of my life ? Has God predestine 3/3 of my life?

If 3/3 has been predestine then what ever is said regardless of how noble it sounds is beyond any ability I would have to make any change In me.

Its just as I said in the beginning of this thread, I can’t change one thing about me, not one word not one deed, absolutely nothing.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 21, 2013, 07:56:56 PM: Quote from: Rick on December 20, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
Hi Theophilus,

Your example is something I been dwelling on these past few weeks not about someone committing adultery but rather are we given the opportunity to travel on two paths in this life, both of which are of God but not always by God ?

Lets keep it simple and use your example about the man who has committed adultery, The man loves his wife but has and issue with lust of women, He knows inwardly to be with a women outside of his wife is wrong and so now he is confronted with a choice.

Is his life predestine on one path to say no, and on the other path to say yes ? Can he choose of his own will which is subjected to Gods will to take either path ?

I think of a man who drinks to the point where its causing issues in his relationship with his wife and his drinking is causing problems on the job, his wife threatens to leave him if he continues drinking all the time, his boss threatens to fire him.

The man knows he will loose everything in his life and will become devastated if he continues on this path of drinking.

The logical thing to do is stop drinking immediately however he continues to drink, why does he keep drinking ?

Is there another force at play here ? Or does he has a choice to take the other path which is alcohol free ?

These two paths make much sense to me but I have not found it in Rays papers yet, I’m hoping Ray has written something along these lines.

I understand what your meaning is about a defeatist attitude and I know the beast within can be quite deceiving and many times I ask myself, why do I do the things I do ?

The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak as the good book says and sometimes I wonder if the flesh is to weak to take the other path, the right path.

I remember Elmer Fudd , I think that was the name but he always said ( what a terrible web we weave for ourselves )

Thank you Theopilus for the correction.

Peace and love to all.

Hello Rick,

continuing with the example, the husband has two choices in front of him. It's a struggle because his flesh wants to sin but his spirit wants to do the right thing. I believe that whatever path the husband CHOOSES to follow is the path that God had determined for him to follow. But the man definitely makes a choice; and does so of his own will.

As regards the drinking man, either path represents a potential choice. God already knows the man's choice but the man doesn't know it until he makes it.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 22, 2013, 02:31:21 AM: Hi Loretta,

we share the same belief regarding the phantom free will. I was on my last leg at work. I was on suspension. This ending week I failed to achieved 100 % production at work. This means come Monday I will be terminated. What to do? what to do? Get mad? get sad? get worried? Paul tells me not to worry about anything. I got rent, bills, child support, etc, etc; I will be left without health insurance, and so will be my minor daughter. It's no good in my 'hood! Yet I don't doubt it is of God. But it's very hard. :'(
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: DougE6 on December 22, 2013, 04:04:07 AM: "To give you an example, a husband cheats on his wife. The wife is devastated, the kids are torn, etc, etc. Say the husband knows that he has no free will. The husband explains to his wife that he had no choice in the matter. He did what he did because he has no free will. If anyone, God should be blamed since He was the one directing his steps. You wouldn't like to be the wife in this example listening to her husband "excuse", would you? Neither would I!"

God is not interested in anyone belonging to him being an adulterer or a fornicator. Adultery and fornication are sins of the flesh. If you are committing these you are in the flesh and not the spirit. Frankly, it is impossible for those in the spirit to commit these sins. So, if anyone commits these sins, they are in the flesh.

God is sovereign. He has ordained your life's path. Granted. BUT... Do you want to live in the flesh or in the spirit?

Is it possible that God has ordained your life's path to include these sins? Of course! Otherwise it would not happen.

Judge yourself!! God's sovereignty should be leading you into walking in the spirit and not in the flesh more and more if He has chosen you to be with Christ when He returns. Christ is looking for a pure bride. So weep if you are doing acts like adultery. Weep! NEVER EVER say...well I blame God's sovereignty. Granted this knowledge of God's sovereignty if present in others or in us should help us to deal with more grace with others weaknesses or maybe to give other's more grace. But never ever counsel and say..well this is God's desire for me/you to do these sins! To the sin committing sinner, the fact that one is doing such things should only be a HUGE wake up call.

I understand that sometimes God waits until the 11th hour to help deliver us or much more time goes by than seems reasonable. If one is learning to love righteousness and hate wickedness even in this time of weakness, sure ...good work is being done. Granted. Sometimes we need to see for ourselves our own wickedness and God's lets us store up a whole lot of sin before delivering us...

YET...

I do not understand all this focus on God's sovereignty. Please do not misunderstand me here. I feel God's sovereignty is not a hard understanding!

The death of the beast is a hard understanding! If my beast is dead, the proof of that is not if I believe in God's sovereignty, or use it to justify myself. The proof of a dead/dying beast is if I am living in the spirit and NOT doing the works of the flesh. The beast cannot let Christ rule nor does it submit to Christ...and Christ is not an adulterer. Believing in God's sovereignty is easy. Resting in His sovereignty in righteousness...is MUCH HARDER. Judging oneself and letting God destroy the beast and ruling man of sin and the beastly nature is HARD. So let God's sovereignty SHOW you how weak/fleshly/sinful your heart is... not so that you can just accept your fleshliness but so you will pray and pursue and beg Him to change your heart into something better! If one has no desire to do this...well, we ALL go through dry spells that may/must be necessary for our spiritual growth,...maybe in a dry spell counterfeit comfort can be gained by saying to oneself..this is God's plan for me to be so controlled by the flesh, but I don't see any scriptures anywhere that even hint even in a most put the blame for our sins on God. I just think that is in RETROSPECT looking back on my life I can say that everything that happened was planned and purposed...but in everyday living..well God can judge you because it is your heart that is evil, not his, and you are doing the works, so repent.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: theophilus on December 22, 2013, 09:23:52 AM: Quote from: DougE6 on December 22, 2013, 04:04:07 AM
"To give you an example, a husband cheats on his wife. The wife is devastated, the kids are torn, etc, etc. Say the husband knows that he has no free will. The husband explains to his wife that he had no choice in the matter. He did what he did because he has no free will. If anyone, God should be blamed since He was the one directing his steps. You wouldn't like to be the wife in this example listening to her husband "excuse", would you? Neither would I!"

God is not interested in anyone belonging to him being an adulterer or a fornicator. Adultery and fornication are sins of the flesh. If you are committing these you are in the flesh and not the spirit. Frankly, it is impossible for those in the spirit to commit these sins. So, if anyone commits these sins, they are in the flesh.

God is sovereign. He has ordained your life's path. Granted. BUT... Do you want to live in the flesh or in the spirit?

Is it possible that God has ordained your life's path to include these sins? Of course! Otherwise it would not happen.

Judge yourself!! God's sovereignty should be leading you into walking in the spirit and not in the flesh more and more if He has chosen you to be with Christ when He returns. Christ is looking for a pure bride. So weep if you are doing acts like adultery. Weep! NEVER EVER say...well I blame God's sovereignty. Granted this knowledge of God's sovereignty if present in others or in us should help us to deal with more grace with others weaknesses or maybe to give other's more grace. But never ever counsel and say..well this is God's desire for me/you to do these sins! To the sin committing sinner, the fact that one is doing such things should only be a HUGE wake up call.

I understand that sometimes God waits until the 11th hour to help deliver us or much more time goes by than seems reasonable. If one is learning to love righteousness and hate wickedness even in this time of weakness, sure ...good work is being done. Granted. Sometimes we need to see for ourselves our own wickedness and God's lets us store up a whole lot of sin before delivering us...

YET...

I do not understand all this focus on God's sovereignty. Please do not misunderstand me here. I feel God's sovereignty is not a hard understanding!

The death of the beast is a hard understanding! If my beast is dead, the proof of that is not if I believe in God's sovereignty, or use it to justify myself. The proof of a dead/dying beast is if I am living in the spirit and NOT doing the works of the flesh. The beast cannot let Christ rule nor does it submit to Christ...and Christ is not an adulterer. Believing in God's sovereignty is easy. Resting in His sovereignty in righteousness...is MUCH HARDER. Judging oneself and letting God destroy the beast and ruling man of sin and the beastly nature is HARD. So let God's sovereignty SHOW you how weak/fleshly/sinful your heart is... not so that you can just accept your fleshliness but so you will pray and pursue and beg Him to change your heart into something better! If one has no desire to do this...well, we ALL go through dry spells that may/must be necessary for our spiritual growth,...maybe in a dry spell counterfeit comfort can be gained by saying to oneself..this is God's plan for me to be so controlled by the flesh, but I don't see any scriptures anywhere that even hint even in a most put the blame for our sins on God. I just think that is in RETROSPECT looking back on my life I can say that everything that happened was planned and purposed...but in everyday living..well God can judge you because it is your heart that is evil, not his, and you are doing the works, so repent.

Hello DougE6,

I was just giving an example. God's sovereignty isn't a hard understanding to you NOW! How about before your eyes were opened? I have "tried" to help others see this sovereignty to no avail. They simply can't grasp it.

"God is sovereign. He has ordained your life's path. Granted. BUT... Do you want to live in the flesh or in the spirit?"

If I understand correctly, whether I want to live in the flesh or the Spirit is OF God. In response to your question, no, I do not want to live in the flesh. I would like to overcome every single temptation that comes my way, even though I know it's not possible.

Again, the husband example was a hypothetical.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 22, 2013, 10:00:44 AM: Hi Theophilus,

I’m sorry to hear about your situation at work, no doubt it’s a very stressful situation to be in.
No doubt I’m already praying for you that your situation will change for the good, I mean that from my heart my friend.

I’m also confidant everyone else will be praying for you as well, God can soften your bosses heart in the blink of an eye, even quicker.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on December 22, 2013, 10:46:51 AM: Hi Doug,

I read somewhere in the lake of fire series that Christ did not sin, because God did not cause Him to sin, that maybe not a direct quote from Rays writing but the meaning remains the same.

I agree with the fact that God gave no one permission to sin and I believe most folks really want to do the right things in life.

But if one does sin we have a mediator Christ Jesus which is faithful and just to forgive those who ask to be forgiven.

We are under grace not law and God does call the base things in this life to confound the wise. My entire experience in Christendom was being told God loves me but if I sin God will send me to hell.

I’m beginning to understand things here at B.T. that otherwise in Christendom I would not have. This wake up call you talk about reminds me of and old saying ( its not over till the fat lady sings ).

When it comes to salvation what is not possible for man is possible for God, even the devil will be saved and all the fallen angles, Adolph Hitler too.

I remember reading in the lake of fire, Ray said that one will want to stop sinning long before they do stop sinning.

I cannot speak for anyone else but this I know about me that if I could press a magic button and never sin again I would press that button in a heart beat. For the first time in my life because of B.T. I understand why I sin, I understand that I do not have free will and my life really is in Gods hands.

I see my life as a believer and also I see a non believers life fully predestine by God. I believe what ever anyone experiences in this life could not be any other way and God never asked their permission either.

I cannot think of anyone who wishes to sin but maybe there might be some in life who do but even so the sin issue has been dealt with once and for all and now we who are believers are in process of learning righteousness,

Anyways I won’t know if I learned enough righteousness to be in the first resurrection until I die and am resurrected. Be it the first or second resurrection which ever one I’m in was ordain of God and I have no say in it, God never asked my permission in this life for anything and I don’t believe God will ask me in the next life either. Just my thoughts.

Peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on December 22, 2013, 11:47:59 AM: My problem remains with the myriad voices, denominations, sects, and individuals who are always ready to pronounce me a 'sinner' because I do this or don't do that. It wouldn't be so unbearable IF they agreed with each other!!

So how do I make my choice? Grow in wisdom. Mature. Learn. Gain the "sound mind" and put on the Mind of Christ. Set aside what doesn't work. Follow what does. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Repent and believe. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Judgement isn't "punishment for bad choices" for the sake of punishment, but correction. It changes us and teaches us.

We seem to get to a certain point, then it all comes crashing down. I don't doubt that Peter fully intended to "not deny" the Lord. Yet he did--(and all the others with him). And the Lord knew He would, even if Peter didn't and so much as called Him a liar. Peter "chose" in advance, yet his choice meant nothing when the time came. Peter "chose" when he was confronted by accusers, and even though he "chose poorly", it STILL was CLEARLY in the plan of God. And the LORD used his failure to teach not only him, but US--and especially those of us who believe Peter absolutely could not have chosen differently than he did.

What was the lesson? "Deny the Lord."? Of course not. The Lesson is BELIEVE what He says. Lean not on your own understanding (like Peter telling the Lord just how it would be), but in all your ways acknowledge Him. It's everywhere in Scripture, not just there.

What I learn from that whole passage is: Don't despair. Our failure is not the end, even if our failure is our present circumstance. Desire to "do good", but be humble about your own abilities and control of situations. Keep the FAITH, no matter what. If you don't have it, how can you keep it?

And for all those pesky other people out there WANTING to sin and HAVING NO DESIRE to do good? Besides the fact that I don't think that number is very great, it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that "they" are here in the first place and require no "preaching" from the likes of me.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: ez2u on January 25, 2014, 09:29:26 PM: I was pretty much feeling this way" the world has gone mad" and read some of this post. I guess we all are feeling the madness of this world. I have nothing to say except everything in my life feels wrong right now. out of control and nothing has changed in my circumstances. reading the Bible and rays post helps. waiting on the Lord, waiting to feel the warmth of the sun again.1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: rick on January 26, 2014, 04:45:56 PM: HI Ez2u, We know all is of god and that His will shall be accomplished , we also know Christ words are spirit and that the judgement is on the house of God at this time and afterwards the world shall be judged in righteousness but as I look at to days world and read Luke 21:25 I do see a correlation.

Not always sure how to perceive these things but it does appear that all the nations of the earth are in distress as mentioned in Luke 21:25

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows.

peace and love to all.
Title: Re: Just need to vent how about you?
Post by: cheekie3 on January 30, 2014, 01:45:21 PM: Rick -

This is a great post.

I know there are Angels and they too need to be saved.

I am not aware of any fallen angels; as I understand that this term is part of the Lucifer hoax.

George.