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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mrsnacks on July 02, 2007, 09:19:10 PM
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Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.
So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.
Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor, was to not retaliate.
I would welcome some comments. Thanks
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Mr. Snacks,
What would Jesus do? Would he have fought or retaliated?
What Jesus would do, we should do.
Craig
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Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.
So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.
Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor, was to not retaliate.
I would welcome some comments. Thanks
Is that Mr. Snacks, or Mrs. Nacks? :P
Anyways, I think the answer to your question is: Those who do go to war, and kill their enemies are not followers of Christ. One may say "but, but, but... they're Christians". I rest my case. ;)
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Hi mrsnacks,
I guess there have always been fighting from the start....Cain and abel. When there were more people to fight it turned into wars. This is a part of the evil experience that we have in this world. If there was not evil in this world, how would we learn the difference between good and evil.
But for the few called out of this world, we are not of the world. we need to be separate from the ways of the world.
John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take them out of the world, but for You to keep them from the evil.
v. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
2Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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mrsnacks
may we please, see the scriptures you are refering to " loving your enemies and so on...."
Just askin
Rodger
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Mr. Snacks ;)
As a government, probably the right thing to do may have been to at least defend our country.
As a person, wanting to follow Christ, then do what Jesus would do.
Remember most things in scripture are for the called, not for the nations or multitudes.
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mrsnacks
may we please, see the scriptures you are refering to " loving your enemies and so on...."
Just askin
Rodger
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Didn't Jesus command us to love our enemies ? Didn't Jesus command us to love one another ? Didn't Jesus command us not to return evil with evil ?
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Mr. Snacks ;)
As a government, probably the right thing to do may have been to at least defend our country.
As a person, wanting to follow Christ, then do what Jesus would do.
Remember most things in scripture are for the called, not for the nations or multitudes.
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So to kill in defending our country would be the right thing to do ? But to my recollection all wars fought are said to be fought to defend our country. I have learned that that is not always been the case even though our government says differently.
So would the elect stand beside the JW's in not going to combat and refusing to obey if sent to war ?
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Jesus never said kill your enemy. He said to love them. And those who use the sword will die by the sword.
So does that mean God is opposed to His children fighting in combat ? We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ? How about the fact that God raised up kingdoms to fight and war with other nations such as Israel.
Was the loving thing to do after 9/11, Pearl Harbor, was to not retaliate.
I would welcome some comments. Thanks
Is that Mr. Snacks, or Mrs. Nacks? :P
Anyways, I think the answer to your question is: Those who do go to war, and kill their enemies are not followers of Christ. One may say "but, but, but... they're Christians". I rest my case. ;)
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Mr Snacks . You rest your case ? Is it that simple ? Aren't there some wars justified and others not ?
If the US were attacked ( I am not talking about 9-11) you would oppose the US to retaliate ?
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Hi Mr.Snacks
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:43-44
It is doubtful that America would fold up her tents and surrender to any foreign power, It is scriptural that Those obeying Christs Commandments could not kill his enemies.
Gods plan and purpose includes wars, rumors of wars, Evil, Hate, These things are of this world, But are we to be part of this world?
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [Rom 12-2]
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But aren't we called to fight and war against evil ? But to what extent ? Are Christians called to fight immorality by aligning themselves with organizations such as Operation Rescue or let's say Civil Rights organizations ?
I would say no. Because only Christ can transform and change the person from the inside out. I cannot change the person from practicing homosexuality or from being pro abortion to a person with Christian values. I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.
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Hey Snacks, I used to think of the same questions you brought up here. I think there's plenty of people who will go fight wars. I don't have to get involved (and wouldn't anyway) I think you're right, and yet who's ultimately responsible for the wars? U.S.? Saddam? Japan? Hitler? God?
Me thinks the latter.
Matt
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The battle is never ours. It is the Lord's. We are not to trust in man or the arm of flesh or the work of our hands. We are to put all of our trust in the Lord. If God had meant for Germany to conquer the world the Allied forces could have been 10 times larger and more powerful than they were and we would still have lost the war.
All is of God. And it will not be accomplished in this age, but the peace of God will reign over all of creation in time.
We can have peace within ourselves by dying to Christ and putting all of our trust in God.
CIY
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I think Gandhi had a much better idea what it means to "Resist not evil" (Matthew 5:39) and "overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:17) than most Christians do:
"I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."
Gandhi, Mahatma (1972). Non-violence in peace and war, 1942–[1949]. Garland Pub. ISBN 0-8240-0375-6.
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I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.
Bravo, Snack you nailed that.
Remember Christ said live by the sword and die by the sword.
You can never forcefully change anyones opinion by beating it into them. Or threatening them (hell), they are just the same old filthy rags. On the outside they may agree with you and want to be "one of the guys" but inside they are the same ole beast.
Craig
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Does the answer change any if you scale the question back just a bit? Instead of looking at 9/11, etc. how about this...
If Jesus is walking down the street and somebody comes up to Him and hits Him, then He turns the other cheek.
But what if He's walking down the street with His mother, Mary, and somebody comes up and hits her?
What does He do? Does Jesus look at Mary and tell her to turn the other cheek for this attacker or does Jesus defend her and beat this attacker down?
Is He showing love to his mother by not defending her? Is Jesus showing love to the attacker by not stopping him/her from committing this crime?
Could Jesus be showing love for both by defending her and beating this attacker as necessary to stop them from hurting her anymore?
Mike
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I think so.
I do have a question. Didn't Jesus tell the disciples to carry a sword at one point in the gospels ? He didn't tell Peter to not carry his sword before the incident in the garden.
So God is responsible for wars ? Even God caused and raised up armies against other nations such as Israel. So He is behind it all. This is a bit confusing to me. Take for instance the Father dragging us to Him. If God didn't drag us we wouldn't come right ? So if God didn't raise up armies to fight other countries- would wars happen ? I know we would say yes because men's hearts are evil and wars are inevitable so why does God have to raise or cause a nation to rise up against another nation ?
If someone came up to my mother and started to beat on her - the loving thing for me to do is to stop him at all costs. That is being loving to my mom and a loving thing to do to the attacker. By beating him and putting him away is a loving thing to do to the potential would be victims of this criminal. That would be me laying my life down for my mom. I am risking getting hurt or killed doing this. To not do anything would be evil.
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I sure do hope that I am not around someone that uses the "turn the other cheek" argument when I need some help, or when one of their loved ones is attacked.
Even Ray says that we have the right to self defense in one of his letters.
Self defense has nothing to do with hate. It has everything to do with stopping an attack.
Anything else is cowardice, IMO
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God being totally sovereign, do you think He is not only aware, but caused any situation that you might find yourself in. If someone tried to do you or your mother harm, do you think this is out of His control?
Is there a single scripture of Christ or any of His believers defending themselves?
But there are scripture that state otherwise.
Here is the email on self defense.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1516.0.html
> What do you believe the bible says about personal self
> defense? If you can not answer me now I would like to
> see something on your site in the future. Thank you.
Dear Michael:
The Bible says: "But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL, but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).
God be with you,
Ray
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1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
v. 13 Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good?
v. 14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.
Bravo, Snack you nailed that.
Remember Christ said live by the sword and die by the sword.
You can never forcefully change anyones opinion by beating it into them. Or threatening them (hell), they are just the same old filthy rags. On the outside they may agree with you and want to be "one of the guys" but inside they are the same ole beast.
Craig
Craig, perhaps I am slow and if I have read your post wrong, then please forgive me.
People who live in glass houses should never throw stones. Oh it is so easy condemning our leaders and military for "killing" our enemies, while we live in a nation that has only ever had one serious attack on the main land in it's history. (forgive me if I am wrong, I have only been a citizen for 2 years) Is not the peace, saftey and the right to even converse online in this forum a direct result of the many decisions and sacrifices made by many commanders and countless young men and women who gave their life for the freedom we enjoy.
Yet there is more to this than simply letting others do our fighting for us, for are we not instructed to be in subjection to our earthly rulers whom are there and ordained by God himself. Who is one denying, if one refuses to serve in the millitary for "scriptual" reasons.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake
Well this is how I see it. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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I think if a person is brought to Christ and begins to have Christ living in him/her- then and only then will he/ she change from ungodliness to being Christlike. It is a process but there is no other way. Any other change is at a superficial level.
Bravo, Snack you nailed that.
Remember Christ said live by the sword and die by the sword.
You can never forcefully change anyones opinion by beating it into them. Or threatening them (hell), they are just the same old filthy rags. On the outside they may agree with you and want to be "one of the guys" but inside they are the same ole beast.
Craig
Craig, perhaps I am slow and if I have read your post wrong, then please forgive me.
People who live in glass houese should never throw stones. Oh it is so easy condemning our leaders and military for "killing" our enemies, while we live in a nation that has only ever had one serious attack on the main land in it's history. (forgive me if I am wrong, I have only been a citizen for 2 years) Is not the peace, saftey and the right to even converse online in this forum a direct result of the many decisions and sacrifices made by many commanders and countless young men and women who gave their life for the freedom we enjoy.
Yet there is more to this than simply letting others do our fighting for us, for are we not instructed to be in subjection to our earthly rulers whom are there and ordained by God himself. Who is one denying, if one refuses to serve in the millitary for "scriptual" reasons.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake
Well this is how I see it. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
If you serve in war, and kill, you are denying God. If you refuse to serve in war because of the Word of God, and are thrown into jail, then you are bieng persecuted for righteousness sake, and you have nothing to fear.
Render to God, what is His, and to ceaser, his.
Follow the law, but if the law of our nation, the law of men contradicts that of God's law, then you know whose kingdom you are apart of.
Acts 5:29 "Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"
We must obey God, rather then men my brothers and sisters.
Love to you all,
Alex
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Alex I agree.
We must always obey God before men
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
So if we don't fight as commanded, who are we disobeying? Men or God?
Yours In Christ,
Darren
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Alex! Amen brother,
Thanks dude Very up lifting! right wen I needed it, Thank YOU FATHER.
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Mr Snacks . You rest your case ? Is it that simple ?
Me resting my case was in the context of Christians not being true followers of Christ.
Aren't there some wars justified and others not ?
I think in the OT there were some that were justified, but not under the New Covenant.
If the US were attacked ( I am not talking about 9-11) you would oppose the US to retaliate ?
The US is being attacked, as is the rest of the non-Muslim world. Would I oppose the US, or the rest of the world to retaliate? Of course not, then again I never claimed to be a "true follower of Christ" and I've even said before that I don't "love my enemies". But my point was, those who are "true followers of Christ" have to (love their enemies).
I think my problem is, I have all this knowledge, and I see things that Christians can not. Yet, I am still a sinning machine. But, I'd rather be a sinning machine than a hypocrite.
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We should submit ourselves to the ruling authorities so long as they do not command us to break Christ's commandments. Christ commanded me to resist not evil. So if they command me to fight evil with guns, bombs, killing etc.... Disobeying them is obeying God.
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We should submit ourselves to the ruling authorities so long as they do not command us to break Christ's commandments. Christ commanded me to resist not evil. So if they command me to fight evil with guns, bombs, killing etc.... Disobeying them is obeying God.
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Yes, but Bob, by whoses authority is the sword wielded or gun fired? By whose order is the command given? Is he who is fighting not a God ordained revenger to execute wrath (punishment) upon him that doeth evil.
So how can such as these be disobeying God or the teachings of Christ? This not saying that I have the God given right to protect many family, but it is saying I do NOT have the right to refuse the command to fight. The command given by an authoritative figure, put in place and ordained by God.
Does it not say that whom ever resists such orders will recieve damnation. How will anyone explain that they didn't understand to Christ on Judgment Day. It seems pretty clear to me.
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Darren,
It is late and I am tired...so this may be a really dumb question. Are we sure that all the books of the bible are written specifically to us? Just a thought, because I tend to go by what Jesus says more than any other person in the bible.
Peace to you dear brother,
Lisa
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Mr. Snacks,
Christ's commandments are spiritual (John 6:63) and cannot be understood by those who do not have the God given understanding to compare spiritual with spiritual...
1 Corinthians 2:10-16
But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets. No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And we have received God's Spirit (not the world's spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.
When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For, WHO can know the Lord's thoughts? Who knows enough to teach him?But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ
Unfortunately the carnal mind is at opposition to the things of God...
Romans 8:6-8
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God
The leaders of this country, or any other country for that matter, whether past, present or future have been raised up by God and are simply acting out the sequence of events that God has caused in order to show those who he has chosen that the way of this world, only leads to more war and death... that their is a more excellent way, LOVE.
Unfortunately, those who wage wars here on this earth do not have their minds fixed on the spiritual, but instead are busy trying to fix this broken physical world. They are too concerned with the physical and cannot be expected to follow the spiritual law that Christ brought... there are very few that are chosen to know and understand this path.
That being said, you ask... is God opposed to his children fighting in combat?
Those who are true followers of Christ are "Ambassadors of Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20) and consider their citizenship to be in heaven. (Philippians 3:20). We have revoked our earthly physical citizenship and have become ambassadors for Christ... and should no longer participate in the politics or military affairs of what is now a foreign country to us.
You then ask... "We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ?"
While "ALL THINGS" are being worked according to God's plan (Ephesians 1:11)... the life that is required of the elect is very different than that of the rest of the world.
God is using those who have not heard, those who have heard and have ignored, those who are called but are deceived, those who are chosen but not faithful, and those who are chosen and faithful till the end... God is using all of these individuals in order that His perfect and entire will for this age is accomplished.
As for the tragic events of 9/11... and other similar events in history, the world will continue to act in the only fashion they know how.... "an eye for an eye" ... but for those of us who are attempting to endure to the end, that we may be found chosen and faithful... we must abstain and live a quiet and peaceable life.
1 Timothy 2:1-2
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.
Our wars are fought with prayers similar to this.... "not mine, but thy will be done."
God's Peace.
Josh
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Here's how I look at these scripture, Darren.
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. This would be talking about God's sovereignty over all governing power on earth.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. To resist what God has ordained, by taking up arms, will incur judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, So rulers are not to be feared for those of good conduct, and do what is good, like love your enemies, and you will receive his approval.
Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Sounds like God is in control here. Why would God's chosen join up and literally fight, what God has ordained to be. When the sword is used by God chosen, it is His Word, that spiritually kills.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hey Lisa,
same here I 2 go by JESUS & wot HE says mainly, I dnt no jus cant help it :).
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Late one night, in a dark corner of a parking lot, two young ladies (they were younger than eighteen, although, age is not a prerequisite) were being raped by eleven older men
(if you dare call them, men).
God has already prepared you for combat (Special forces) and you are a true believer in the entire Word of God.
Now then, do you walk the other way, ignoring the situation altogether? And, turn the other cheek? (Keep in mind that it is not your cheek, nor your enemy) Or, do you intercede? (Counting the cost and fully aware/prepared for the outcome) Would you, lay your life down for them?
If these were my daughters - I could only pray that the Lord would send a man like their father, to be an intercessor for them, as well.
"…For He did not give you a Spirit of fear, but of love, sound mind and power."
(without graphic details) – jER
Please, comments welcome…to know to do good and not, is sin – is it not?
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Late one night, in a dark corner of a parking lot, two young ladies (they were younger than eighteen, although, age is not a prerequisite) were being raped by eleven older men
(if you dare call them, men).
God has already prepared you for combat (Special forces) and you are a true believer in the entire Word of God.
Now then, do you walk the other way, ignoring the situation altogether? And, turn the other cheek? (Keep in mind that it is not your cheek, nor your enemy) Or, do you intercede? (Counting the cost and fully aware/prepared for the outcome) Would you, lay your life down for them?
If these were my daughters - I could only pray that the Lord would send a man like their father, to be an intercessor for them, as well.
"…For He did not give you a Spirit of fear, but of love, sound mind and power."
(without graphic details) – jER
Please, comments welcome…to know to do good and not, is sin – is it not?
I would as you would, walk up to these men, and demand they stop their terrible acts immediately in the name of Christ, and if they don't, that God have mercy upon there souls and forgive them, and that He send an angel to protect these young girls.
If my please for them to stop does nothing then i would get between them and the women and try with my body between the two parties end this awful evil act. If i am beat down, and they continue to rape the women, i would again stand up and put myself between the men and the women, and if i am knocked down again, then i will stand up until the Lord brings a miracle to intercede, and to show them the power of Christ, and the power of His love!
Offcourse, i say this, but would i really do it? Haha Only God knows.
Lord willing if such evil were to arrise and any of us were found in this situation or one similar that He use us, and work through us to perform His perfect and good will. That He would make known to these evil men before Him the power of His name!
Him be glorified =]
God bless,
Alex
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Mr. Snacks,
Christ's commandments are spiritual (John 6:63) and cannot be understood by those who do not have the God given understanding to compare spiritual with spiritual...
1 Corinthians 2:10-16
But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God's deep secrets. No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. And we have received God's Spirit (not the world's spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us.
When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. Those who are spiritual can evaluate all things, but they themselves cannot be evaluated by others. For, WHO can know the Lord's thoughts? Who knows enough to teach him?But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ
Unfortunately the carnal mind is at opposition to the things of God...
Romans 8:6-8
So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God
The leaders of this country, or any other country for that matter, whether past, present or future have been raised up by God and are simply acting out the sequence of events that God has caused in order to show those who he has chosen that the way of this world, only leads to more war and death... that their is a more excellent way, LOVE.
Unfortunately, those who wage wars here on this earth do not have their minds fixed on the spiritual, but instead are busy trying to fix this broken physical world. They are too concerned with the physical and cannot be expected to follow the spiritual law that Christ brought... there are very few that are chosen to know and understand this path.
That being said, you ask... is God opposed to his children fighting in combat?
Those who are true followers of Christ are "Ambassadors of Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20) and consider their citizenship to be in heaven. (Philippians 3:20). We have revoked our earthly physical citizenship and have become ambassadors for Christ... and should no longer participate in the politics or military affairs of what is now a foreign country to us.
You then ask... "We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the American revolution. So does that mean that the revolution was not of God ?"
While "ALL THINGS" are being worked according to God's plan (Ephesians 1:11)... the life that is required of the elect is very different than that of the rest of the world.
God is using those who have not heard, those who have heard and have ignored, those who are called but are deceived, those who are chosen but not faithful, and those who are chosen and faithful till the end... God is using all of these individuals in order that His perfect and entire will for this age is accomplished.
As for the tragic events of 9/11... and other similar events in history, the world will continue to act in the only fashion they know how.... "an eye for an eye" ... but for those of us who are attempting to endure to the end, that we may be found chosen and faithful... we must abstain and live a quiet and peaceable life.
1 Timothy 2:1-2
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.
Our wars are fought with prayers similar to this.... "not mine, but thy will be done."
God's Peace.
Josh
Beautiful post Josh, i couldn't have said it any better.
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
All this spiritual battle is not takeing place on some physical battlefield such as the middle east, or the grounds of europe during WW2 but rather;
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
To pera, ty for your kind words, i'm glad i was able to help, whatever little bit =]
Love to all,
Alex
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Hey jER,
Excellent example. I'd like to see a couple more verses to back up the one you mentioned of "to know to do good and not, is sin," but it seems to me that this verse does support stepping in and fighting these guys, if necessary, in order to help the girls. What kind of love are we showing to the girls if we don't help them? Seems to me that if you don't help, then indirectly, if not directly, you are helping the men commit their crime.
I'm throwing my own opinion out here, without any verses other than the one you mentioned, so maybe I'm just trying to justify the carnal side of me. But, it seems to me that there is a difference between me turning my personal cheek when an enemy is attacking me directly and me turning my cheek when someone else is getting their cheek hit. It takes courage and love to turn my own cheek and it takes courage and love to defend someone else's, but I'm thinking you're only showing fear if you don't defend that someone else.
Before I answered here, I pictured myself standing before God and being held accountable for how I handled this issue. I just can't see God saying, Well done, thou good and faithful servant. You had the knowledge, ability and opportunity to defend two innocent girls from being brutally raped by 11 evil men and you just stood there and said, "Hey guys, you're being really naughty here. And in the name of my God, I plead with you to stop!" Sorry, just can't see it.
But I'd really love some more verses to show me I'm right or that I'm totally thinking in the wrong.
Off to bed,
Mike
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Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Yes, but Bob, by whoses authority is the sword wielded or gun fired? By whose order is the command given? Is he who is fighting not a God ordained revenger to execute wrath (punishment) upon him that doeth evil.
Yes, the sword is wielded by the authority of God and the person fighting is exectuing God's wrath on men like Saddam. But God does not generally "give the order" to the rulers and they obey. That's not how it works. Do not mistake being appointed by God with obedience to God (examples below).
So how can such as these be disobeying God or the teachings of Christ?
They can and do disobey God even though they are appointed by God.
Pilate was a ruling authority, given power by God over Christ to have Him crucified. But Pilate was not obeying God when he delivered Christ to be crucified. Pilate had no clue God had given him any power and he received no order from God. Pilate was doing exactly what God's hand had determined to be done. Yet he was sinning.
John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
The pharoah of Egypt was raised up by God for the very purpose of disobeying God's commandment to "let my people go!" Satan was given authority by God to try Job and to tempt Christ. The king of Assyria was sent by God to render judgment on Israel (Isaiah 10) but he had no idea God was sending him and had his own evil purpose for doing so.
In Acts 4 & 5 the apostles were commanded by the rulers and elders of Israel not to preach about Jesus. But they continued to preach and were put in prison for it. The angel of the Lord set them free and commanded them to keep preaching.
Acts 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
There is a difference between not resisting the ruling authorities and obeying their commands when those commands are contrary to God's. Jesus did not resist the authorities. Nor did the apostles resist. But the apostles obeyed God when the ruler's commands opposed God's.
God bless,
Bob
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Hi folks,
I think this thread has covered everyones opinions, the topic isn't new, it gets started every few months or so. I believe watching allot of T.V. generates images of helpless victims, and supernatural hero's, fact is, few if any of us will ever face such a situation in our lives, If any of you out there have come across eleven men raping a young girl. let me know how you reacted to it?
All i can say for the military forces, is that i pray for your safety, and I pray for your enemies, that all will come to the knowledge of the truth.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Jhn 15:12-14
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, [Luke 6:27]
I suppose one can argue until blue in the face, but it says what it says. You are NOT going to find scripture that contradicts the above verse, just to satisfy your carnal lusts
Why do you call me Lord Lord, And do not the things I say? [Luke 6:46]
Peace
Chris R
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Chris,
And you might wish to add that the discussion never ends well.
That is why I will lock it now.
God will never put us in a situation that we are not prepared to handle or give us a lesson to learn
Craig