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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: Wanda on May 22, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
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Why does man fight so hard to live, even enduring torturous medical treatments to stave off death?
Did God instill in us this overwhelming desire to live at any cost? I know it would be God's will if I did fight to live, if I were faced with a terminal illness, but I'm not so sure I would want to hang on to this carnal and imperfect body, knowing what I now do.
The religion I was a part of taught, our desire to live comes from the fact we were meant to live forever, and we instinctively know this. Or is the desire to live so strong because of the fear of the unknown? Even believers fight to live, so either they don't have faith, or they are fighting instinctively.
I have known people who believe when they die that's it, no after life what so ever, and they're okay with It, but I wonder how true that is. They do after all fight just as hard to live. Maybe they're not as okay with there being no life after death as they say., or they're not completely sure of what they believe.
Just something I've pondered from time to time.
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I for one am not the least bit afraid of being dead - It's the process that scares me
Just saw this. Kind of fits: https://youtu.be/PqEmYU8Y_rI (https://youtu.be/PqEmYU8Y_rI)
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Interesting video. Now I have more to ponder
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In my youtube search, the results came back with nothing but info on the walking dead😂 Dead was not even a part of my search terms.
Let the dead bury the dead comes to mind.
I agree, the state of dead is the easy part. I've seen sudden death, death in sleep and the worst, slow agonizing death from cancer. Of course I would rather go easy, but it's not my choice.
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The (physically) dead know nothing.
The (spiritually) dead know nothing. Walking dead as Wanda said. 😁
I agree Dennis , it’s the act of dying and suffering pain that’s scary but billions go through it every day
not knowing and believing in the resurrection. We are so very blessed.
The prison analogy reminded me of the many and the few.
In Christ , Pamela
Thanks Dennis, good video.
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Interesting video. Now I have more to ponder
Let the dead bury the dead comes to mind.
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
IMO, there is a connection here.
And I've often used these two verses as proof that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. But just my opinion.
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IMO, there is a connection here.
And I've often used these two verses as proof that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. But just my opinion.
I've looked at this in every scriptural way I know and it's obvious this is saying more than I once thought. Makes me wonder what Adam knew that we don't.
Another one of those great mysteries.
I've read on the forum, where others have said who they would first like to talk to in the next age; at this point, I can say I want 10 minutes with Adam. I have my most relevant questions ready.☺
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IMO, there is a connection here.
And I've often used these two verses as proof that Adam and Eve were not the first humans. But just my opinion.
I've looked at this in every scriptural way I know and it's obvious this is saying more than I once thought. Makes me wonder what Adam knew that we don't.
Another one of those great mysteries.
I've read on the forum, where others have said who they would first like to talk to in the next age; at this point, I can say I want 10 minutes with Adam. I have my most relevant questions ready.☺
Wanda, would you care to share a couple of those questions so we can speculate an answer??
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Okay Bob, but keep in mind it's just my opinion and therefore nothing more than speculation.
It's important to also note what I believe from studying Ray's broad scope of teachings, and the scriptures.
I believe man has been on the earth for longer than 6,000 years. I also believe there were people before Adam.
So there's no confusion, let me first state, we know that Eve is metaphorically the mother of all who are alive in Christ and will be alive in Christ in the future.
We know from Genesis 3:20-21 that Adam named his wife Eve at some point after sin entered the world.
I think it's possible this is when Adam learned there were other people on earth, and one of the reasons he gave her the name Eve, mother of all living. This would mean these people were also a part of God's plan of salvation for all.
Cain kills Abel -
Genesis – 4:9-15 God's punishment upon Cain for killing Abel , and as a result he feared for his life from those he would encounter outside of his homeland.
1) How did Cain know there were other people?
2) How would they know what he had done?
3) What would motivate them to kill him?
Makes sense to me Bob.
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Bob,
I got interupted while posting and didn't complete my thought.
The people outside the garden, didn't have a relationship with God as Adam did, therefore they were spiritually dead.
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
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Hi Wanda,
Here in my home town we just buried a 95 year old woman who had 12 live births after her marriage at age 17.
Only three have survived her, so the other 9 died before she did. Strong, determined woman, mother and wife.
This was a lot more common in past centuries.
Addressing your comment re: the "people" outside the Garden of Eden.
There weren't any people inside the Garden because God sent Adam and Eve out before there were any kids. Yes/no?
Like the lady in my first sentence, Adam and Eve were really excited about reproduction.
God told them to "get to it" and make a lot of babies, so maybe like the woman I mentioned they probably made quite a few, perhaps one every couple of years or less. I'm sure Adam was eager to obey God in this way regardless of his previous disobedience regarding the forbidden fruit.
(side comment) I have a daughter who is 14 months older than her little brother. ;)
The average woman today has about 500 or more eggs available divided by 12 months which would allow about 40 kids if she kept really busy. AND with perfect health and ample food and environmental comfort there is no reason that the eldest daughter(s) would not love to help Mom as soon as they were ten years old so the burden of caring for 30 or 40 kids would be minimal.
Still a large responsibility of course...
Plus if conditions were even anything like today the boys and girls would be trying sex as soon as they came into puberty and there was nothing wrong with that.
It was orders from God. Go to it! Fill the earth!
Also please note that Adam was also spiritually dead.
Isn't that why God kicked him out of the Garden??
Cain was certainly spiritually dead, otherwise why be jealous of Abel and kill him.
In fact almost every living person in the world today is "spiritually dead" even those worshiping in error every Sunday.
Also you mentioned that Cain knew that there were other people.
Of course he did...they were Adam's children and brothers or sisters or cousins to Cain and Abel.
They probably had grown up with both brothers and worked to build homes and orchards and herds of sheep and played together for years.
It was a very large family and Adam and Eve led them as is normal for parents to do.
Just my opinion of course. Bob
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Like the lady in my first sentence, Adam and Eve were really excited about reproduction.
God told them to "get to it" and make a lot of babies, so maybe like the woman I mentioned they probably made quite a few, perhaps one every couple of years or less. I'm sure Adam was eager to obey God in this way regardless of his previous disobedience regarding the forbidden fruit.
We have the generations of Adam recorded in Genesis 5:
Notice Seth begat sons and daughters. It doesn't say he married his own sister.
Also you mentioned that Cain knew that there were other people.
Of course he did...they were Adam's children and brothers or sisters or cousins to Cain and Abel.
They probably had grown up with both brothers and worked to build homes and orchards and herds of sheep and played together for years.
It was a very large family and Adam and Eve led them as is normal for parents to do.
Are you sure about that Bob?
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
Gen 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
Gen 5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
Gen 5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
Gen 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
Gen 5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
Gen 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
Gen 5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
Gen 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Gen 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
Gen 5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Gen 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
Gen 5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
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Gen.4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the Land of Nod
on the east of Eden.17: and Cain knew his wife, and she conceived.
So I am thinking Cain met his wife in the Land of Nod.
Nod, H5113- vagrancy, land of Cain
H5112- exile , wandering, vagabond , to wander, flee
Sounds like Nod is the world of wandering, spiritually, dead sinners who are lost.
When I was growing up Nod meant time to sleep. Going to bed. The Land Of Sleep.🤔
Or nodding off, sleepy.
I have a notebook that says on the front,,, Not all those who wander are lost.😁
I have E-sword now and one word leads to endless words and meanings. Amazing.
East means,in front of.
In Christ, Pamela
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Yes Bob I agree, we are all born spiritually dead. I should have said, God's spirit was not upon the people outside the garden, as it was with Adam.
Addressing your comment re: the "people" outside the Garden of Eden.
There weren't any people inside the Garden because God sent Adam and Eve out before there were any kids. Yes/no?
What makes you think Adam didn't learn of these people's existence from God, prior to leaving the garden? We have no idea how long after they sinned they left the garden. I don't think its reasonable to consider God banished Adam and Eve immediately, before preparing them In some way.for what they were facing.
We see this in Genesis 3:19, “By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground.” This was not just about the labor of plowing a field, but about all labor in life they would face for the remaider of their lives.
And again in Genesis 3: 21 where God made clothes of skin and clothed them.
I don't believe for one minute, a God of such Emence love and mercy, did not prepare these once sheltered people for life outside of their perfect existence. A God who so thoughtfully planned, purposed and orchestrated all of creation, to include that Adam and Eve sin, surely would not, or could not do anything different than prepare them
Also you mentioned that Cain knew that there were other people.
Of course he did...they were Adam's children and brothers or sisters or cousins to Cain and Abel.
I used to believe that also Bob, but I've since learned that I had a very limited ability to see, and as a result my understanding was wrong.about many things pertaining to God. God has shown me time and again I can't rely on my own understanding, therefore I don't have much, if any trust in what I think.
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Bob -
I find it interesting that God created more than two of each living creature, during the creation process, to share the responsibility of populating the earth, and yet only created one man and one women.
I've given some thought to what you said about women and her reproductive capabilities, and it gave me quiet a laugh.
Only a man, who has never experienced pregnancy and childbirth would consider God putting that kind of responsibility and burden on one women to mass produce. .with that kind of logic, I can understand why some women think God is a women hater. ;)
Edited to add this.
Bob,
Someone else, after reading my comment, missed my lame attempt at using humour to be thought provoking, so I want to assure you, it was not an attempt to be disparaging in any way. I was thinking of what you once said about your wife never letting you forget the pain she endured to give you children.
In person, I'm quiet funny, but that doesn't always come across very clear in txt.
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Hey just wanted to add in some two cents for this discussion. Not to contend with others but to be mindful.
If what you say is true then why do the scriptures say:
1 Ti 2:13 - For Adam was first formed then Eve.
1 Co 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Co 15:45 - And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam a quickening spirit.
Rom 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Rom 5:14 - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Luke 3:38 - Which was of Enos, which was of Seth, which was of Adam, which was of God.
To me (maybe not others) it seems this is what is implied:
For as SOME in Adam die (we are not all from Adam after all, others are from others after all), even so in Christ shall SOME be made alive. (But Christ is the savior of everyone is he not? This is a big hint)
And it is written, the first man [out of other first men that may or may not have come before/after Adam who knows] was made a living soul...
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. (Adam must have either sneezed on everyone else who never sinned to pass this sin, or we were all born from the same type of weak flesh of the first formed Adam?)
etc.
It is also important to notice:
1 Ti 1:4 - Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith.
Tit 3:9 - But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Take of it what you will, I just have doubts. And, as Paul describes, such topics aren't really great in building up others if they are put down that maybe they aren't of X or Y genealogy. I know such things don't actually matter as children of the light worship in spirit and truth. I'm sure there are many other scriptures one could find to testify that we (everyone up to Adam) are children of God (not all in spirit yet obviously) and he is actually our Father in heaven which is why he says things like Egypt my people in Isaiah 19:25.
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nshan -
Ray spoke on this subject in the following videos. I think they might be more helpful than anything I could add.
Why Science and the Bible do not agree.
https://youtu.be/qh9qBUg8lVQ
Were Adam and Eve the Firstt Humans.
https://youtu.be/2AbrPxV1uQU
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Hey Wanda,
I will have a look but Ray states in Why God Loves You (https://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm) the following:
Have you ever meditated on this profound truth? WE ARE GOD'S KIN! I can trace my genealogy back to Joris Jansen De Rapalje, the first of four named families to settle Manhattan Island, New York in 1623. But that's barely 400 years. All of us one day will be able to trace our genealogy clear back to Adam and Eve and then to The Lord GOD ALMIGHTY the Creator of the universe and the Creator of the Human Race. This is not figurative language. This is not a metaphor. This is not spiritual symbolism. We really are of the kin, race, and genealogy of God Almighty!
Luke's gospel traces Jesus' genealogy through His mother Mary's father. Does that genealogy end with Adam and Eve? No it doesn't. Let's read it:
"Which was the son of Enos [Enoch], which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son OF GOD!"
Likewise, ALL of our genealogies will take us back through our parents, grand parents, great grandparents, etc., etc., until we come to our Truly GREAT Father, not Adam, but GOD! WE ARE ALL OF THE RACE OF GOD!
When a mother gives birth, she is reproducing herself; she is giving birth to someone like herself; she is producing a person in her own image and likeness; and hence this child is now of the mother's race, kin, genealogy, relatives, children, and family. In similar fashion God brought into existence humanity.
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in His Own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. (Gen. 1:26-27)
While it is true that we do not presently live together with God as a family, it is nevertheless, a fact that we are presently a member of God's family, kin, and race. And it's just a matter of time until we are all united as one Family of God:
etc.
Notice what I bolded above.
This scripture may be necessary:
Acts 17:26 (KJV) - And hath made of one blood [not many different bloods] all nations of men for to dwell all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation.
Eve could not be called the mother of all living if she actually wasn't. Though she was as we all are/were spiritually dead.
In the end, this genealogy stuff is really a stumbling block and doesn't matter as:
Gal 3:26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Not in faith of where your father's mother's father's mother's father was born though we are all His offspring (no seriously) and he is not far from any one of us.
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Why does man fight so hard to live, even enduring torturous medical treatments to stave off death?
Did God instill in us this overwhelming desire to live at any cost? I know it would be God's will if I did fight to live, if I were faced with a terminal illness, but I'm not so sure I would want to hang on to this carnal and imperfect body, knowing what I now do.
The religion I was a part of taught, our desire to live comes from the fact we were meant to live forever, and we instinctively know this. Or is the desire to live so strong because of the fear of the unknown? Even believers fight to live, so either they don't have faith, or they are fighting instinctively.
I have known people who believe when they die that's it, no after life what so ever, and they're okay with It, but I wonder how true that is. They do after all fight just as hard to live. Maybe they're not as okay with there being no life after death as they say., or they're not completely sure of what they believe.
Just something I've pondered from time to time.
This topic has gone a little astray. So back on course to some degree.
I just revised my favorite video on our YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/aQijG4zWXxw (https://youtu.be/aQijG4zWXxw)
This video shows what God went thru for us - You don't find this type of quality teaching on other sites.
Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
The hotel's P.A. system broke and they went to a Radio Shack and bought a cummy $50.00 speaker and microphone. It sounded awful. But I managed to get the sound in this revision somewhat better. And I added some captions.
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Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
You nailed it Dennis! I knew there had to be a scriptural answer.
Good job on the sound, it's a big improvement.
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Funny Dennis. I like how you placed the scripture in the middle of your post. No matter, it jumped off the screen like it was on fire.😁
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Wanda,
Seriously appreciate your humor. Please do not be concerned...
I think we may be missing a little understanding of how much responsibility is "reasonable" for God to put on us and or Eve as a mother.
If I understand anything, as a simple man of course, God wasn't concerned that Adam and Eve had too much to do to care for several children all at once. Plus we truly don't know how much desire for children God put into her mind. God can do that you know. God can make you desire to serve Him OR God can blind you and withhold understanding. We don't have free will, right?
Adam had a natural God given sexual desire for a relationship with his wife AND she had a God given desire toward her husband to please him and there were no obvious methods of birth control as yet. Result = children, children, children... Plus I am quite sure that God also gave them both a desire to see their progeny grow and prosper in all things and so they spent the days teaching them and exploring with them, especially since there was not a lot of other entertainment around for the first many years.
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Just my view of course. Bob
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Bob -
I find it interesting that God created more than two of each living creature, during the creation process, to share the responsibility of populating the earth, and yet only created one man and one women.
I've given some thought to what you said about women and her reproductive capabilities, and it gave me quiet a laugh.
Only a man, who has never experienced pregnancy and childbirth would consider God putting that kind of responsibility and burden on one women to mass produce. .with that kind of logic, I can understand why some women think God is a women hater. ;)
Edited to add this.
Bob,
Someone else, after reading my comment, missed my lame attempt at using humour to be thought provoking, so I want to assure you, it was not an attempt to be disparaging in any way. I was thinking of what you once said about your wife never letting you forget the pain she endured to give you children.
In person, I'm quiet funny, but that doesn't always come across very clear in txt.
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Thank you Bob.
You're right, All thimgs are possible with God, as I'm a living breathing example. I try hard not to limit him, as is often the case with us humans. Not one of us can resist the will of God, so no, we don't have free will.
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This scripture is profound to me in a way it never was before.
Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever
I've been thinking on this scripture, and even though I've read it many times over the years, not once did I connect it to my question. It's not even one of those that's hidden in deep spiritual meaning.
All I know, is I have talked to God many times about mans strong desire to live, especially when my sister was fighting so hard to live, even though she had suffered endless days with unimaginable pain from cancer, she kept saying she wanted to keep fighting. I prayed for the time she would surrender because her suffering became to much for me to bear. Now I understand, it was not in her control not to fight, until God made it so. I've also read how hard Ray fought to live, and It was the same for him.
Imagine fighting against the will of God until our dying breath, and yet that is his will too. We can't surrender to death until God makes it so.
Job 14:5-6 (NIV)
5 A person’s days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
6 So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired laborer.
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Wanda,I just received Ray’s Book, Lake of Fire. It’s beautiful and I opened to this as I was reading
your post.
NOTHING HAS EVER GONE AGAINST GODS PLAN OR INTENTION
It is God’s intention that men go against His will.So what may appear to be a failure
in God’s dealing with mankind is nothing of the kind. All that happens was intended to happen
and all that does not happen was not intended to happen. Here is wisdom.
In Christ
Pamela ❤️
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Thanks Pamela, how very true that is.
I ordered mine after you, so I'll probably get it later this week.
I thought about something more, so thanks for Bering with me while I go on about this, it's had a big impact and I can't stop myself.
This song popped into my head, "Take me back to the garden".
Take me back to the garden
Take me back and walk with me
For Your presence I am longing
Take me back!
Maybe there is a deeper spiritual meaning to the scripture.
Are we really fighting death or unconsciously, fighting to get back to the garden and walk with God, as Adam once did? I'm pretty sure Adam must have missed those walks with God terribly at times, how could he not.
I've said this before,, I believe man knows there is a Creator even if it's on a subconscious level. Even my God hating son, who is angry at him at the same time he's denying his existence. How can you be angry at someone you don't believe in?
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Rom: 8:19
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
22-23... For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in
the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation but we ourselves
who have the first fruits of the Spirit groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for the
adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
2Col.5:2-4
For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by
putting it on we may not be found naked.( like Adam and Eve in the garden)
For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened— not that we would be unclothed,
but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal, may be swallowed up
by life.
Rom.8:20-22
For the creature (creation) was made subject to vanity not willingly, but by reason of Him
who hath subjected the same in hope.Because the creature itself also shall be delivered
from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain until now.
Ray says
“ Make no mistake, death is an enemy, but it is being abolished (1Corth. 15:26)
by the one who has already has victory over it and although we will never experience death,
we will experience the act of dying.
But take courage—- all you will ever know— is LIFE.
Amen
Come Lord Jesus
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You pulled it all together so perfectly Pamela.
Sometimes God shows us something we already know, from a different perspective, and as a result it gives a thing new meaning. Knowing and believing it is wonderful, but being able to feel it is indescribable.