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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: EZE on April 18, 2006, 07:27:50 AM
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Hey guys...
Could anybody possibly help with this one?
I'm in the middle of an online debate with a friend re UR.
He threw a scripture at me that spoke of being 'destroyed' in the fires of Gehenna.
I in turn pointed out to him the the word translated as 'Destroy' is in fact 'Apollumi' and is elsewhere translated as 'Lost'.
He said the following -
START QUOTE
But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.
Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...
END QUOTE
The thing is - I can SEE HIS POINT.
Any help would be appreciated people
God bless - EZE
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Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
lost there is apollumi
so the Son of man is come to save that which is destroyed ?
also i like this one
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
lost is apollumi again
go rather to the destroyed sheep of israel ? hmmmm that can't be right can it ?
confusion in the understanding
my spirit however is more in this mode
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
so if we do not come to God by Him we are only fooling ourselves ?
f
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Hey there Ertsky.
Thanks for going to the trouble of replying but it doesn't exactly help me.
I've already quoted a mountain of scriptures with the Gk Apollumi as lost in there to him.
I also pointed out that the Gk word Katargeo is used in reference to God destroying death but never used in relation to humankind.
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.
Does that make sense?
EZE
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Don't be tossed to and fro with every doctrine or idea of men.
(Mat 10:24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
(Mat 10:25) It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
(Mat 10:26) Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
(Mat 10:27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
(Mat 10:28 ) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Mat 10:29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
(Mat 10:30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Hell in Matt 10:28 is gehenna as you've pointed out.
But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.
Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...
Contextually he doesn't agree with the inspired Word of God. If I fear a MAN who can kill only my BODY, HOW MUCH MORE should I fear our Father who can kill my body BUT ALSO will kill my SOUL TOO?
Dead people are dead. So, once dead, that is the end deal. No more repentance, faith, love, mercy, etc.
The person you are debating with clearly twists words and scriptures beyond compare.
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death
Since when is "Gehenna" the "Lake of Fire"?
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(1067)
(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake(3041) of fire(4442). This is the second death.
The "Lake of Fire" IS the second death, NOT GEHENNA or GEHENNA FIRE.
So, I will stop there. Spiritual death is MUCH more important that physical death.
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And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death
Hi EZE,
Hades is not cast into Gehenna, Gehenna's flames have been out for many,many years. Hades is cast into The Lake of Fire, when Jesus spoke about the literal Gehenna, He was using that literal place to describe the Spiritual Lake of Fire. for His words are Spirit. Jesus did not speak to the masses in parables to make the meaning clearer, as foolish theologians would have you believe.
Just my two cents,
Sorin
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Hey there Ertsky.
Thanks for going to the trouble of replying but it doesn't exactly help me.
I've already quoted a mountain of scriptures with the Gk Apollumi as lost in there to him.
I also pointed out that the Gk word Katargeo is used in reference to God destroying death but never used in relation to humankind.
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.
Does that make sense?
EZE
Not sure how Gehenna versus LOF relate, but something i've been thinking on re: LOF.
This doesn't go along with totally what Ray teaches, but is something i've been thinking about. Maybe what goes into the lake of fire doesn't ever come out, maybe it is destroyed forever; The carnal mind is thrown into it and dies. I don't think the lake of fire is to convert the carnal mind, it is to destroy it.
Just as the in Jesus earthly times, the demon possessed had their demons removed (ie:thrown into the pigs, and the pigs went over cliff into LAKE). The new man, continued on. Every person that had demons removed, or sickness removed; then walked on in a new creation. What happened to the sickness? What happened to the demons? What happened to the blindess? They were destroyed.
Just some thots.
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I wonder where that came from :)
Haha :)
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I wonder where that came from :)
Haha :)
Where what came from?
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I wonder where that came from :)
Haha :)
I'm not sure Steve if u meant my post.
For me, where this thinking came from is, Christ died on the cross, complete death. Christ represents the flesh. It had/has to die. When Christ was raised, he wasn't raised in the flesh, but a new creation. In the lake of fire, our flesh has to die. To me this makes a lot of sense. The carnal mind is destroyed. Romans 6-8 talks about our baptism into death, to reckon ourselved dead to sin, to the flesh. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
Paul died daily, the flesh has to be crucified. All a part of the cross, death and life.
I think we who are going through judgment now, can spend too much time focusing on changing our flesh, rather than letting Christ through the spirit crucify it.
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I think we who are going through judgment now, can spend too much time focusing on changing our flesh, rather than letting Christ through the spirit crucify it.
I agree with this because if we think we are doing anything at all, we are still yet carnal. Christ will be the one to free us or not. It all leaves me saying, "How long, Oh Lord?".
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Hi EZE
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.
Does that make sense?
EZE
sorry about that EZE i was a bit oblique there, thank goodness the other posters had it more together. (good posts as usual there folks)
now i'm thinking on this verse
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God all in all and hades and death done away with ?
i don't see hades and death coming out only going in, just like my flesh into the fiery trials, it goes in and is burnt away, not coming out, theres plenty more apparently to fuel the next fiery trial LOL! .
hope that isn't too off the track
well i hope your friend sees more than i do before the day is done :)
f
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Here is how I see that:
Do not fear him who can kill your body, but not lose your soul in judgement. Isn't it interesting that Christ does not say kill your body AND kill your soul, but kill your body and appolumi your soul? If killing a soul is what Christ was talking about why use a different word? It is because Christ is not talking about ending the existence of a soul, but judging a soul, and His judgements are as fire. This judgement does not have the effect of killing a soul (or Christ would have said that) but it has the effect of being cast away from him. Christ is actually talking about judging his own disciples. Remember the parable of the fish? The kingom is like a net. Within the net are fish, some good some wicked. Some fish will be tossed out of the kingdom. BUT if you read Romans 8, we see that the whole purpose for the ones who have NOT been tossed out is to recieve all of Creation into glorious liberty.
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Hey guys...
Could anybody possibly help with this one?
I'm in the middle of an online debate with a friend re UR.
He threw a scripture at me that spoke of being 'destroyed' in the fires of Gehenna.
I in turn pointed out to him the the word translated as 'Destroy' is in fact 'Apollumi' and is elsewhere translated as 'Lost'.
He said the following -
START QUOTE
But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.
Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...
END QUOTE
The thing is - I can SEE HIS POINT.
Any help would be appreciated people
God bless - EZE
Hi EZE, you really should study this paper with your bible at your side before engaging in any more debates, do you understand "spirtual brimstone?" "Two Judgements by Fire?" "The Lord is a Consuming Fire?"
There is much to be learned and understood here;
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
I know from personal experience that debating can be a carnal exercise with no real persuasion being accomplished. I started asking myself what my motive was, I did not like the answer. There are times when people who have different views but are humbly seeking wisdom together can accomplish great things but more often than not, at least what I have seen it becomes more of a goal "to be right!"
If I have come across as lecturing please forgive me, I only believe that if you read and reread the "Lake of Fire" series (especially the one I posted since it addresses your original question) you will gain a knowledge of His plan that is truly exhilarating.
Joe
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Read Daniel 4 as a kind of parable of God "destroying" a soul. God destroyed the king's carnal self and raised up a new man in its place who was humble and loved God.
The tares are removed from God's kingdom which is within you and burned. The tares are not converted into wheat. They are destroyed. Your old carnal man is destroyed and you are raised a new man in Christ.
The prodigal son had his soul APOLLUMI before he was made alive. All must APOLLUMI their soul in order to find it. All of our souls were carnal.
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Not sure how Gehenna versus LOF relate, but something i've been thinking on re: LOF.
Gehenna is a literal place but Jesus uses it as a symbol for the lake of fire.
This doesn't go along with totally what Ray teaches, but is something i've been thinking about. Maybe what goes into the lake of fire doesn't ever come out, maybe it is destroyed forever; The carnal mind is thrown into it and dies. I don't think the lake of fire is to convert the carnal mind, it is to destroy it.
That is my understanding too and as far as I know, that is how Ray and Mike teach it.
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Read Daniel 4 as a kind of parable of God "destroying" a soul. God destroyed the king's carnal self and raised up a new man in its place who was humble and loved God.
The tares are removed from God's kingdom which is within you and burned. The tares are not converted into wheat. They are destroyed. Your old carnal man is destroyed and you are raised a new man in Christ.
The prodigal son had his soul APOLLUMI before he was made alive. All must APOLLUMI their soul in order to find it. All of our souls were carnal.
So is the tares, the carnal mind? Then what is the chaff of the wheat?
I've always thot of the chaff as the stuff to be burned, our carnal thots/mind???
thanks.
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So is the tares, the carnal mind? Then what is the chaff of the wheat?
I've always thot of the chaff as the stuff to be burned, our carnal thots/mind???
thanks.
I see your question and maybe I'm wrong so don't quote me. Those are separate parables. One about wheat and chaff, another about wheat and tares. As I understand, the tares and chaff symbolize the same thing (carnal self) when applied inwardly. Both are separated from the wheat after it is grown and burned.
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Laren,
I found an email where Mike answers exactly what you are asking.
http://www.*not-allowed*.com/email/2006032401.html
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From what I understand,all the parables are the same. they all say the same thing that many are called but few are chosen. Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
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thanks Sorin and bobf, both of your posts were helpful.
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Hey thanks for all your help everyone, much appreciated.
Not sure who said it but yes I have come to realise that 'debating' is / can be as much a work of the flesh as anything else.
I think people will see these truths when and if God allows them to do so.
Bible truths rocks harder than ACDC
EZE
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Now ya'll this is coming from one who "cut her teeth" in the fields. All our family had gardens and stock. All of the family took turns working on each other's farms. They weren't big but that is what we ate from all year. I don't know if this description will help in the discussion but here goes! Every year we burned the broom sedge off before planting. If we didn't it would just take over the plants and we wouldn't have as many as we would otherwise. After the ground was burned, we would turn it with a push plow and tractor. We got out seeds in and throughout the summer, we weeded and hoed everyday and tended our plants until they got enough size and stability on them to not be overtaken by any stray weeds. At picking time, we hand picked both the good and bad. When we got our pickings to the wellhouse lean to(right outside the kitchens) we sorted in the shade thankfully! We shucked corn ( the shucks were burned but if my Pa had a pig that year, we gave the shuck to the pigs to eat.) We shelled the beans, the shell was burned. After all was said and done, we set fire to the fields again to burn up and clear off the land to grow something else. The unproductive plant life was gone! We burned it. For some reason this long story makes me think about the "wheat and chaff". In real wheat the chaff is completely separated out either by picking it out(which takes forever) or you can use a water method which is easier than by hand. That chaff is pushed off and eventually burned up and you are left with wheat that you can cook into many different things. Our sinful flesh is that chaff and the good wheat is what God uses in many different ways! (ya'll if I 've spelled wrong, please forgive!)
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I don't mean to throw something new in here,...then maybe I do, but as I have always understood it, and I can be wrong, is that the tares are symbolic of the natural man; the wheat is symbolic of the called, and the barley is symbolic of the elect. The barley is harvested 7 days, or 1 week prior to the wheat. The tares are allowed to grow with the wheat. The natural man along with the called are separated and purged in the lake of fire. Barley is 'winnowed' while the wheat is threshed.
Brian
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I could be in way left field here but after reading all of this, including the Mike's piece...I just want to say does it matter? This difference in the wheat? Hasn't the victory of Christ occured? Weren't these parables taught prior to the victory? Aren't most of us on here certain that salvation was given to those who at least believe if not to the whole world? So who is concerned about seperations, lake of fires and all of that stuff? Don't we discount or doubt the victory of the cross when we consider picking these issues to bits?
Again I live in left field from most. So excuse me for butting in where I don't belong.
Peace
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edit
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Psalms 40:7 says: Then I said, "Behold I come, in the volume of the book it is written of me. this scripture is repeated in Hebrews10:7
The reason we look for Christ in the OT and anywhere we can in scripture is because He is there! He said we would find him if we dilligently search for him. The numbers, ark, feasts, animals, celebrations, people all point to Christ. They are like mini pictures of him and what he has done for us.
I hope this helps you understand why we can get so excited when we find him in the word.
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I could be in way left field here but after reading all of this, including the Mike's piece...I just want to say does it matter? This difference in the wheat? Hasn't the victory of Christ occured? Weren't these parables taught prior to the victory? Aren't most of us on here certain that salvation was given to those who at least believe if not to the whole world? So who is concerned about seperations, lake of fires and all of that stuff? Don't we discount or doubt the victory of the cross when we consider picking these issues to bits?
Again I live in left field from most. So excuse me for butting in where I don't belong.
Peace
I think the reason for understanding those things is so that we can understand the scope of God's plan. The world has not been saved outright, it has been reconciled. The bridge has been built for a new relationship with God through Christ. But there are separations and judgements because the kindom will be whittled down to only a few chosen to take part in what Paul called the "high calling" which is to judge the world and to deliver creation into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Understanding these things can help us stay on the right path. I don't know about you but I don't want to be booted out of the kingdom on my rear for not doing the will of our Father in Heaven (turning away from wickedness, bearing the fruit of the spirit, spreading the Gospel etc).
The high calling is what I want to be a part of and only few are chosen, which is why I run this race, not turning from Christ and losing faith in his victory. That is the prize. Understanding separation, judgement, spiritual symbolism, and eventual restoration of all things keeps me at peace in my heart yet earnest in my walk. I hope that makes sense.
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"22Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
23Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
24Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working." Isaiah 28:22-29
What do you see here? Joyful1
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What I get is that there are different methods for different fruit. Not all fruit can be grown the same way with the same tools and the same approach. Hence he blinds some, and reveals to others. He raises up to promenence, and delivers down to obscurity. The farmer works all things to the council of his own will.
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Gehenna is the eternal abode of the lost, both angels and men.Punishment included both body and soul.It is eternal torment.Gehenna is the proper name, the Lake of fire is a descriptive name.Both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire(Gehenna).Death refers to the material part of man, the body.Hades refers to the immaterial part of man, the soul and spirit.If you need more information, let me know.
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Gehenna is the eternal abode of the lost, both angels and men.Punishment included both body and soul.It is eternal torment.Gehenna is the proper name, the Lake of fire is a descriptive name.Both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire(Gehenna).Death refers to the material part of man, the body.Hades refers to the immaterial part of man, the soul and spirit.If you need more information, let me know.
Oh really? Is that why Jesus said all men will be salted by FIRE including those in the FIRE of gehenna.
Is that why Jesus said that some who are cast out of the kingdom will recieve FEW stripes from the Lord in judgment. Do you think someone can receive FEW stripes in an ETERNITY of TORMENT?
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love_magnified...that's what I saw as well....and to note that the threshing does not go on indefinitely because it would damage the corn, for instance.
The threshing is for a purpose other than destruction.
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Gehenna is the eternal abode of the lost, both angels and men.Punishment included both body and soul.It is eternal torment.Gehenna is the proper name, the Lake of fire is a descriptive name.Both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire(Gehenna).Death refers to the material part of man, the body.Hades refers to the immaterial part of man, the soul and spirit.If you need more information, let me know.
False.
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Gehenna is the eternal abode of the lost, both angels and men.Punishment included both body and soul.It is eternal torment.Gehenna is the proper name, the Lake of fire is a descriptive name.Both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire(Gehenna).Death refers to the material part of man, the body.Hades refers to the immaterial part of man, the soul and spirit.If you need more information, let me know.
Oh really? Is that why Jesus said all men will be salted by FIRE including those in the FIRE of gehenna.
Is that why Jesus said that some who are cast out of the kingdom will recieve FEW stripes from the Lord in judgment. Do you think someone can receive FEW stripes in an ETERNITY of TORMENT?
Amen to that! I doubt you will get any attempt at a scriptural response, it will be either A.) nothing or B.) a deflection elsewhere to another point that he believes defends eternal torture DESPITE the truths you posted above.
- Brett
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Gehenna is the eternal abode of the lost, both angels and men.Punishment included both body and soul.It is eternal torment.Gehenna is the proper name, the Lake of fire is a descriptive name.Both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire(Gehenna).Death refers to the material part of man, the body.Hades refers to the immaterial part of man, the soul and spirit.If you need more information, let me know.
"…and ALL LIARS [do you see any exceptions in that statement, ‘ALL liars?"] shall have their part in the lake which BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8)!
"…Let God be TRUE [Who says He "WILL save ALL MANKIND"], but every man a LIAR [who says He WILL NOT "save ALL MANKIND"]!
Ouch ALL LIARS, guess there goes the entire world. It doesn't say ALL LIARS EXCEPT THOSE SAVED BY CHRIST, but ALL. Dang.. there goes the CHristian church, haha.
Ghenna is NOT THE LAKE OF FIRE. Neither is anyone gonna be destroyed there. Someone is still very carnel here.
"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (I Peter. 3:9).
"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32).
"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our’s only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).
"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29).
"Who then CAN be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE"
"To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT imputing [reckoning] THEIR TRESPASSES [SINS] AGAINST THEM" (II Cor. 5:19).
"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess [‘That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Rom. 10:9)] that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God ‘raised from the dead.’ Christ was already ‘RISEN’ when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord [‘Lord’ means ‘master’—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11).
"For THIS is GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL men [What percentage? Five percent? Fifty percent?] … ALL men to be saved..." (I Tim. 2:3-4).
Now you might say to yourself, Well God is just repeating this over and over because He just wishes it would happen, or He just wnats it to happen but Hes not gonna force it too happen. WRONG, HE WILL HAVE IT HAPPEN.
Remember the former things of old: for I am GOD, and there is none else; I am GOD, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel SHALL STAND, and WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else]:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east [Cyrus?], the man that executes my counsel [just as the king of Assyria] from a far country: yea, I have SPOKEN IT [as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS [as also in saving all mankind]; I have PURPOSED IT [as also in saving all mankind] I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isaiah 46:9-11).
"So shall my WORD be that goes forth OUT OF MY MOUTH [just as in I Tim. 2:4 and everywhere else] it shall NOT return into me void, but it SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, and it SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT" (Isaiah 55:11).
"God is NOT a man, that He should LIE [do we think God LIES when He says that He WILL save all mankind in I Tim. 2:4?]; neither the son of man, that He should repent: hath He said, and shall He not DO IT? Or has He spoken [as in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places], and shall He not MAKE IT GOOD?" (Numbers 23:19).
And to Quote Ray. I just love this one.
Well? Those of you who contend with your Maker: "Hath God SAID" in I Tim. 2:4 that He "WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, "SHALL HE NOT DO IT?" (Num. 23:19). Has "He [God] SPOKEN" in I Tim. 2:4 and many other places, that He "…WILL have all men to be saved?" Well then, "…shall He NOT MAKE IT GOOD?" (Num. 23:19).
Taken from Rays articles, have a read you might learn something or two ;)
So uh whats this representation of Fire? Well what does Scripture use FIRE with. Maybe that will help us understand :)
"I indeed baptize you with water unto REPENTANCE: but He that comes after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND WITH FIRE" (Matt. 3:11).
Jesus our King speaking here :) "For EVERY ONE [sinner and saint] shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it [your faith] be TRIED IN THE FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"Every man’s work [including believers] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE, and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"And I saw a great white throne ... And I saw the dead...and the dead were JUDGED ... according to their WORKS ... and they were judged EVERY MAN according to their WORKSp" (Rev. 20:11-13).
What does Corinthians say? EVERY MANS WORK shall be REVEALED AND TRIED BY FIRE. When does this happen? GREAT WHIT THRONE OF JUDGEMENT.
To Quote Ray again:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire [wait just a minute; Christendom tells us that death {separation from God} and hell represent what the lake of fire actually IS, so how pray tell can they be cast INTO the lake of fire?]. This is the second death [Ah, here is the real key to understand this whole enigma - -the SECOND death is not a repeat performance of the FIRST death]" (Rev. 20:14).
So um your probably still wonder really then what is this lake of FIRE, and what really is this FIRE that ALL LIARS partake of, that sinners and saint must go through. Well to put it in Gods words, in the words of scripture and to put it blunt.
"For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
All this can be found in your bible, or well in rays articles, which i love to read and take from :D
God bless!
Alex
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1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, even he that denieth the Father and the Son.