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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on July 19, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
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Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
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Hi Rick,
Please let me address the easy part first.
I used to be an insurance salesman/claim adjuster for small claims.
The insurance policy that we all buy has certain benefits and certain limitations. The specific limitations are necessary in order to price the insurance to the AVERAGE person's needs.
For example my present homeowners policy limits jewelry coverage to $1,000 dollars and that is because that is all the protection I'm paying for. It also limits the number of times they will pay when my own house catches fire. That is because after three or four fires they don't want me as a customer any longer. I'm too great a risk for the premium that is being charged. In other words there is something wrong with my habits that makes me have so many claims.
I can arrange to purchase better coverage at an additional annual charge if I list each specific item and have them appraised for true value.
The reason that the BASIC policy does not include UNLIMITED jewelry coverage is because most people don't own that much jewelry and would not be willing to pay the cost of providing such protection.
Without the appraisal the customer could cheat the insurance company and/or sell their jewelry and lie about a theft claim. Of course the insurance company knows how some few people lie all the time and has to protect themselves and their customer base.
The same limitations apply to personal property next to your house such as a pool.
You failed to anticipate what might happen during the operation of your lawn mower and didn't first pick up foreign objects or protect your pool from a hazard that "a reasonable person" might have expected to happen during the operation of a lawn mower.
I have mowed lawns for many years and know that debris is often kicked up by the blades, so I stop the mower whenever my wife or another person comes into the yard for any reason. Been lucky so far.. ::)
That is why I haven't had any claims in over 40 years of home ownership. :)
Of course I still had to pay the agreed premium each year so that the insurance company could pay claims filed by others.
So then, I don't think Satan wrote the details of your insurance policy. The provisions were dictated only by good business sense. The insurance company pays all claims with the money collected from other insured people, their customers. They don't pay claims with their own profits, if they did they would shortly go out of business.
I do think that Satan can influence each of us by working to place temptation in our daily lives. Even temptation that leads to envy or greed or "unthankfulness" for the blessings we have been given. Because one of Satan's tactics is to distract us from worshiping the true God. As long as we are pleased with our lives and "have need of nothing" we humans will ignore God and all the blessings we have and come to think, as many do, that God is dead!
Revelation 3:17 (KJV)
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:[/i]
This is another way that Satan deceives us.
Hope that my comments are not too critical of anyone who reads this. I am the first to confess my own errors.
Indiana Bob
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I do think that Satan can influence each of us by working to place temptation in our daily lives. Even temptation that leads to envy or greed or "unthankfulness" for the blessings we have been given. Because one of Satan's tactics is to distract us from worshiping the true God. As long as we are pleased with our lives and "have need of nothing" we humans will ignore God and all the blessings we have and come to think, as many do, that God is dead!
Nice post, Bob. I found it really helpful personally.
I was just thinking how the tree of knowledge of good and evil wasn't placed in the garden by Satan, but by God.
It was the object of temptation and was already in the garden, but Satan didn't put it there. Satan only influenced Eve to look on it with her eyes and mind and heart. Then she "saw" with her eyes/perception that it was good for food, etc.....
The greed, the lust, the envy is already in the heart. It just needs an outside object of worship to get what is already inside that particular person to draw that person away from trusting God.
(The just must live by faith, but Adam and Eve, everybody, lives by sight, until they are saved.)
Eve didn't have to look at the tree -- but she wanted to look at the tree. Satan (whoever this was speaking to her -- whether it be a group or a single person) was with her. The fact that she was in such close company with someone or group of people with that spirit is quite interesting.
She was actually discussing with the "serpent" things that God told her to not do. And she knew she was with the serpent because she even told God it was the serpent who deceived her.
It's also interesting that you never hear of God telling the serpent he couldn't eat of tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because after all, the serpent needs food too. But the only way he eat is through what comes out of the lust that is already in the hearts and minds of those who are far from God.
That was my understanding, but I'm open to correction.
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Hi Rick, I have wondered about this very same thing and here are some Scripture that helped me understand what Satan is.
Eph 2:2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
1Tim 5:14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
The way that Satan is referred to as "the spirit," and "the adversary" (in all translations) indicated to me that he is a particular being, because you use 'the' in sentences to define or identify a particular person or object. We know that there is a spiritual realm with great hosts of spiritual being. Also I think we can understand that he is not just a mere demon, because he has a kingdom and he is the leader/ruler, the mastermind over the the whole horde of demons.
Luke 11:15 But some of them said, By Beelzebub the prince of the demons casteth he out demons.
Luke 11:18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub.
As I think of God's throne and the hosts of angels that serve God, I guess it must be similar with Satan and the demons that serve him.
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan was created by God as our adversary/opponent and embodies the opposite nature that God has. He was created that way from his beginning.
1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
He rules in the world (John 12:31) and directs his angels/demons to sow seeds of discord, influence toward wickedness wherever possible... I think Satan carries out the most 'devilish' tasks himself (pun intended), "then Satan entered Judas" (Luke 22:3).
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
v. 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
It does appear from scripture that Satan is a real intelligent thinking being, thanks for adding Luke 11:15 and 11:18 as well and here are a few more witnesses below.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?
Job 1:7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
So I must conclude that Satan is a real spirit being and that Satan has set up a world system that entices the many of this aged, I read where Ray said that God blinds and Satan deceives the whole world.
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Hi Gina, and Bob,
I was not upset nor angry when the insurance company gave me their reply, I do hvac for a living and went to home depot and purchased some copper flashing a tube of caulking and a liner patch and made the repairs in an hour.
God has blessed me to be very handy, my point in this was this world we all live in is set up to encourage dishonesty, your right Gina this system cannot make one dishonest but we have prisons full of people who get caught up in this satanic system.
I know its met to be like this from the beginning, when God said let US make man in our image
Thank you both for your reply. :)
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You're welcome. Yes, it's true, there are many in prisons, and I'm aware that there are privatized (for profit) prisons in the U.S. and people are being ensnared so that those who own the prisons can profit off of them. The days are really evil. Evil men and imposters will wax worse and worse.
Matthew 18
1 Now in that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who, consequently, is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?
2 And, calling a little child to Him, He stands it in their midst,
3 and said, "Verily, I am saying to you, If you should not be turning and becoming as little children, you may by no means be entering into the kingdom of the heavens."
4 Who, then, will be humbling himself as this little child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of the heavens."
5 And whosoever should be receiving one such little child in My name is receiving Me.
6 Yet whoever should be snaring one of these little ones who is believing in Me, it is expedient for him that a millstone requiring an a@@ to turn it may be hanged about his neck, and he should be sunk in the open ocean."
7 Woe to the world because of snares! For it is a necessity for snares to be coming. Moreover, woe to that man through whom the snare is coming!" [Not, Woe to the young believer in Christ who is snared, but woe to the man through whom the snare is coming.]
8 Now, if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the fire eonian?
9 And if your eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life one-eyed, or, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire?
10 See that you should not be despising one of these little ones, for I am saying to you that their messengers in the heavens are continually observing the face of My Father Who is in the heavens."
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
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Satan being a spirit, I thought I read a verse that says, Is this the Man that decievith the whole world. I could not find it in the concordance.
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
Jesus classified Satan as a father.
John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
Jesus classified Satan as a father.
John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Also:
Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up...
1 Peter 5:8
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Satan being a spirit, I thought I read a verse that says, Is this the Man that decievith the whole world. I could not find it in the concordance.
Hi, Ricky
Isaiah 14:16:
They that see you shall narrowly look on you, and consider you, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
This isn't about Satan - it's about Israel’s Remnant Taunting the King of Babylon (not Satan)
Isaiah 14:
3 When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, 4you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
“How the oppressor has ceased,
the insolent furyb ceased!
5The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
the scepter of rulers,
6that struck the peoples in wrath
with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
with unrelenting persecution.
7The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
they break forth into singing.
8The cypresses rejoice at you,
the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low,
no woodcutter comes up against us.’
9Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’
11Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers.
12“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north;c
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15But you are brought down to Sheol,
to the far reaches of the pit.
16Those who see you will stare at you
and ponder over you:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
who shook kingdoms,
17who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who did not let his prisoners go home?’
18All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;d
19but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
20You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.
“May the offspring of evildoers
nevermore be named!
21Prepare slaughter for his sons
because of the guilt of their fathers,
lest they rise and possess the earth,
and fill the face of the world with cities.”
Ray's LOF paper re the Lucifer Lie went into great depth re this very thing. It's an enlightening read if you have the time, you will be blessed.
Gina
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
The truth is that the Scriptures do not give us a detailed discussion or answer regarding the gender or sexual differences of angels, if any.
In the Book of Job they are called sons of God. Elsewhere they have a masculine reference. Any girl angels? None mentioned in the Scriptures.
However, there is a Scripture that says the things seen (physical) can give us an idea of things unseen (spiritual). One pervasive aspect of human kind and animal kind, and even plant kind, is the aspect of male and female. God created them male and female.
Does that mean angels are male and female? Do not know. Scriptures don't say for sure.
Some will say that Jesus said the angels do not marry, which is true. However that does not mean that angels do not have sex differences since marriage and sex are two different things. You can have one without the other.
There are a whole lot of things we have to learn in the ages to come.
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
The truth is that the Scriptures do not give us a detailed discussion or answer regarding the gender or sexual differences of angels, if any.
In the Book of Job they are called sons of God. Elsewhere they have a masculine reference. Any girl angels? None mentioned in the Scriptures.
However, there is a Scripture that says the things seen (physical) can give us an idea of things unseen (spiritual). One pervasive aspect of human kind and animal kind, and even plant kind, is the aspect of male and female. God created them male and female.
Does that mean angels are male and female? Do not know. Scriptures don't say for sure.
Some will say that Jesus said the angels do not marry, which is true. However that does not mean that angels do not have sex differences since marriage and sex are two different things. You can have one without the other.
There are a whole lot of things we have to learn in the ages to come.
Micah
Nowhere in all of scripture is Satan/YOUR Adversary deemed an "angel." Satan is not an "angel." He masquerades as an angel of light.
2 Cor. 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him
Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
2 Timothy 2:26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
2 Corinthians 2:10-11 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
Eph 2:2 you also—being dead by your offences and sins, 2 In which at one time ye walked, according to the age of the world, according to the prince of the authority of the air, of the spirit that now energiseth in the sons of disobedience,
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 12:9 ... thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan (nowhere called an "angel") , who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown
Gen 3:1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden ...
Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
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This isn't to say that women are never overtaken by sin being ensnared by the devil, they are. And since woman is deemed to be the weaker of the two sexes, is she overtaken by a spirit as weak as her or not as weak as her? (I'm not saying her husband is the serpent, or anything like that at all.) But male and female are made differently. One is weaker implying one not as weak, or by relative comparison, strong. So since males are the "stronger" of the sexes, it follows that Satan would be referred to as "he." And Satan isn't some ragdoll, per Ray.
To listen to the Church, one would think that Satan is some silly clown that can be poked fun at and tossed around like some rag doll. I have heard televangelists make statements similar to this: "Tonight we are going to take hold of that Old Serpent, Satan the Devil, by his tail, and toss him out on his ear!" Oh, really? Most such preachers would not recognize Satan if they were shaking hands with him and starring him in the eyes. They know not his appearance; they know not his doctrines; they know not his location; they know not his plan; they know not his influence on their church or his deceptive powers over their own minds. But God has told us these things in His Word. Prepare yourself for a startling revelation in the Book of Revelation! Satan is located in the very last place the churches would ever look. Satan is indeed a power to be reckoned with!
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
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Angel is a word ( a noun) used to refer to spirit beings below God.
Angels are also called messengers. Some are messengers of good. Some are messengers of evil.
Paul says Jesus, as a human, " was made a little lower than angels." That reference refers to all those spirit beings, including Satan and the evil angels.
Just basic scriptural knowledge, of which some apparently are ignorant.
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Angel is a word ( a noun) used to refer to spirit beings below God.
Angels are also called messengers. Some are messengers of good. Some are messengers of evil.
Paul says Jesus, as a human, " was made a little lower than angels." That reference refers to all those spirit beings, including Satan and the evil angels.
Just basic scriptural knowledge, of which some apparently are ignorant.
Nowhere is Satan referred to as "a Messenger," that I know of. Do you have chapter and verse on that or two spiritual witnesses to backup your statement of belief, because maybe I'm wrong.
Paul "was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan."
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Heb 1
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET "?
14 Are they not ALL ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
14 Therefore, angels are ONLY servants--spirits sent to CARE for people who will inherit salvation.
You think Satan and his deceitful workers disguise and transform themselves into angels of light because they are ministering servants to begin with, which is why they have to fake like they are? Because that's not what Hebrews says.
You think Satan and his deceitful workers care for the sheep?
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
In considering your question I was thinking about the God ordained structure of authority, we have it throughout Scripture for mankind and I think there may be a parallel in the heavenly realm as well. We can see how Paul explains that gender plays a significant part in this structure of authority.
1Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
So here is the order of authority, God of course is at the top, then Christ, then man, then woman, and that is portrayed in the Temple and right down into the church and in marriage. In the Temple only men held positions of service and were in the priesthood. I believe men and women are equal as human being, but in terms of what people do, there are distinct roles that God has set in place.
So seeing that God has put these positions of authority in place, the male is clearly the authority figure throughout Scripture and this seems to be carried over into the heavenly realm, as we can see with God Himself is spoken of in the masculine. I'm not sure there is even a female counterpart in the heaven realm, is in necessary or is this just a means of learning to follow God's will in whatever role we have while in the flesh?
But I think the male designation of angels around the God's throne as being masculine shows they have authority in carrying out God's service. Now Satan is represented as masculine, because he also has been given authority in this world.... he is a prince "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph 2:2) and he has a kingdom "if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?" (Mat 12:26).
Anyway just a few thoughts on this gender thing.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
Because of the hatred in your heart for me, I know you reject anything I say.
But, will you believe Ray? Below is a quote from Ray's emails, under the Topic of Satan, email titled "Worship me", dated 10-10-2006.
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14). Next notice Heb. 2:5--"For unto the ANGELS has He not put in subjection the world to come." Ah, did you catch that? Unlike the "world today," the "world to come," will NOT be under the subjection of angels. Satan is pretends to be "an angel of light" in this world's nations, but not so in the "world to come."
Before you try to teach, it may be best to have some education and understanding of Scripture.
Just Sayin........
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
Because of the hatred in your heart for me, I know you reject anything I say.
But, will you believe Ray? Below is a quote from Ray's emails, under the Topic of Satan, email titled "Worship me", dated 10-10-2006.
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14). Next notice Heb. 2:5--"For unto the ANGELS has He not put in subjection the world to come." Ah, did you catch that? Unlike the "world today," the "world to come," will NOT be under the subjection of angels. Satan is pretends to be "an angel of light" in this world's nations, but not so in the "world to come."
Before you try to teach, it may be best to have some education and understanding of Scripture.
Just Sayin........
Well, first of all I don't hate you. And second of all Ray clearly stated (you're trying to pull a fast one, John?):
Satan pretends to be "an angel of light."
All angels are ministering servants that care for the saints.
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Do you really think that Jesus was made LOWER than Satan and his viper offspring? If you say, Oh, sure, I do! Then how could Jesus have seen Satan falling? How could Jesus have any power over Him and cast out demons being LOWER than Satan? Was Jesus a little lower than Satan?
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
Because of the hatred in your heart for me, I know you reject anything I say.
But, will you believe Ray? Below is a quote from Ray's emails, under the Topic of Satan, email titled "Worship me", dated 10-10-2006.
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14). Next notice Heb. 2:5--"For unto the ANGELS has He not put in subjection the world to come." Ah, did you catch that? Unlike the "world today," the "world to come," will NOT be under the subjection of angels. Satan is pretends to be "an angel of light" in this world's nations, but not so in the "world to come."
Before you try to teach, it may be best to have some education and understanding of Scripture.
Just Sayin........
Well, first of all I don't hate you. And second of all Ray clearly stated (you're trying to pull a fast one, John?):
Satan pretends to be "an angel of light."
All angels are ministering servants that care for the saints.
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Do you really think that Jesus was made LOWER than Satan and his viper offspring? If you say, Oh, sure, I do! Then how could Jesus have seen Satan falling? How could Jesus have any power over Him and cast out demons being LOWER than Satan? Was Jesus a little lower than Satan?
It is clear you lack understanding of basic truths.
When Jesus was emptied from what He was before (God) to be a flesh and blood human, in order to suffer death, he was lower than angelic spirit life (which includes Satan who was an angel as Ray said). In terms of existence, a human life is of a lower quality than angelic spirit life.
Of course, following His Resurrection, Jesus was as He was before, having all power in Heaven and earth. After our Resurrection, we will be like Him, and will be higher than angels and heirs of the ages to come.
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ALL angels, per Hebrews 1 are ministering servants that care for the children of God.
I don't know -- maybe the "angels" Paul said we will be judging are not angels in the truest sense of the word?
Are these ministering servants? Does this judging carry a negative connotation? Is all judgment NEGATIVE or BAD? Did Paul ever say we will be judging "angels who sinned"?
Does anyone know HOW we will be judging angels?
Daniel 7:22
until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
If someone can render a judgment in favor of another person, why does the word judgment always carry a negative connotation? So are these angels that we're judging the angels of God who SINNED? Or are the "pretenders/vipers of Satan" whose god is their belly. I mean, after all, Satan was cursed to go on his belly.
On your belly you shall go...
Are these "angels" heavenly beings that are working on God's side? Or something / someone else?
No, ALL ANGELS are ministering servants. If they don't do that sort of thing, they are not truly angels. They just APPEAR to be in those that are perishing.
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
Because of the hatred in your heart for me, I know you reject anything I say.
But, will you believe Ray? Below is a quote from Ray's emails, under the Topic of Satan, email titled "Worship me", dated 10-10-2006.
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14). Next notice Heb. 2:5--"For unto the ANGELS has He not put in subjection the world to come." Ah, did you catch that? Unlike the "world today," the "world to come," will NOT be under the subjection of angels. Satan is pretends to be "an angel of light" in this world's nations, but not so in the "world to come."
Before you try to teach, it may be best to have some education and understanding of Scripture.
Just Sayin........
Well, first of all I don't hate you. And second of all Ray clearly stated (you're trying to pull a fast one, John?):
Satan pretends to be "an angel of light."
All angels are ministering servants that care for the saints.
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Do you really think that Jesus was made LOWER than Satan and his viper offspring? If you say, Oh, sure, I do! Then how could Jesus have seen Satan falling? How could Jesus have any power over Him and cast out demons being LOWER than Satan? Was Jesus a little lower than Satan?
It is clear you lack understanding of basic truths.
When Jesus was emptied from what He was before (God) to be a flesh and blood human, in order to suffer death, he was lower than angelic spirit life (which includes Satan who was an angel as Ray said). In terms of existence, a human life is of a lower quality than angelic spirit life.
Of course, following His Resurrection, Jesus was as He was before, having all power in Heaven and earth. After our Resurrection, we will be like Him, and will be higher than angels and heirs of the ages to come.
Well, you heard it here. John from Kentucky says that Jesus ceased from being God during this earthly ministry, and that Satan was HIGHER than His maker throughout not only Jesus 3-1/2 year ministry but Jesus' entire life until He died. How else could Satan have been able to kill him if that were not the case, ya know? After all, all power and authority was given unto... Satan? Is that what Jesus did? Gave Satan power over Him?
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John, the angels that Jesus was made lower than were those who were the RULING CLASS AUTHORITIES. From our relative perspective, He was made "for a little while" lower than the earthly ruling authorities who got their power from Satan and not from God. But Christ was not at any time really and truly lower than these ruling authorities.
Isaiah 53:4
3He was despised and forsaken of MEN, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and WE did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet WE OURSELVES esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
THAT is how he was made lower than the angels / "ministering servants" / CHARLATANS / religious hypocrites.
Because THEY THEMSELVES esteemed Him stricken of God and afflicted (mentally ill!).
Was Jesus Christ MENTALLY ILL, John?
This is my last reply to you. You need to have your head examined if you actually think that Jesus Christ was really lower than Satan.
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John, the angels that Jesus was made lower than were those who were the RULING CLASS AUTHORITIES. From our relative perspective, He was made "for a little while" lower than the earthly ruling authorities who got their power from Satan and not from God. But Christ was not at any time really and truly lower than these ruling authorities.
Isaiah 53:4
3He was despised and forsaken of MEN, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and WE did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet WE OURSELVES esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
THAT is how he was made lower than the angels / "ministering servants" / CHARLATANS / religious hypocrites.
Because THEY THEMSELVES esteemed Him stricken of God and afflicted (mentally ill!).
Was Jesus Christ MENTALLY ILL, John?
This is my last reply to you. You need to have your head examined if you actually think that Jesus Christ was really lower than Satan.
Hi Gina,
I probably shouldn’t say anything here because I’m not that familiar with this subject but I do know a couple of things , I know God created Satan as the serpent. I now believe because of scripture that Satan is a spirit being but I don’t know if all spirits are referred to as angels .
I will say this thread is getting interesting to me as this is also a great subject to learn about,
I do hope we can all learn together in love.
God bless.
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John, the angels that Jesus was made lower than were those who were the RULING CLASS AUTHORITIES. From our relative perspective, He was made "for a little while" lower than the earthly ruling authorities who got their power from Satan and not from God. But Christ was not at any time really and truly lower than these ruling authorities.
Isaiah 53:4
3He was despised and forsaken of MEN, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and WE did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet WE OURSELVES esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
THAT is how he was made lower than the angels / "ministering servants" / CHARLATANS / religious hypocrites.
Because THEY THEMSELVES esteemed Him stricken of God and afflicted (mentally ill!).
Was Jesus Christ MENTALLY ILL, John?
This is my last reply to you. You need to have your head examined if you actually think that Jesus Christ was really lower than Satan.
Hi Gina,
I probably shouldn’t say anything here because I’m not that familiar with this subject but I do know a couple of things , I know God created Satan as the serpent. I now believe because of scripture that Satan is a spirit being but I don’t know if all spirits are referred to as angels .
I will say this thread is getting interesting to me as this is also a great subject to learn about,
I do hope we can all learn together in love.
God bless.
That's okay, Rick. I believe you are definitely on the right track. Kat gave some very good points and I can't find any fault with them either.
Satan is the "god of this world," so how could Jesus say before he died and resurrected:
John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Before He was hung on the cross and died and resurrected, and before Satan entered Judas who betrayed him, Jesus said I have already CONQUERED the world? But how could that be when Jesus was "made for a little while lower than the angels"?
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John, the angels that Jesus was made lower than were those who were the RULING CLASS AUTHORITIES. From our relative perspective, He was made "for a little while" lower than the earthly ruling authorities who got their power from Satan and not from God. But Christ was not at any time really and truly lower than these ruling authorities.
Isaiah 53:4
3He was despised and forsaken of MEN, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and WE did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet WE OURSELVES esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
THAT is how he was made lower than the angels / "ministering servants" / CHARLATANS / religious hypocrites.
Because THEY THEMSELVES esteemed Him stricken of God and afflicted (mentally ill!).
Was Jesus Christ MENTALLY ILL, John?
This is my last reply to you. You need to have your head examined if you actually think that Jesus Christ was really lower than Satan.
Hi Gina,
I probably shouldn’t say anything here because I’m not that familiar with this subject but I do know a couple of things , I know God created Satan as the serpent. I now believe because of scripture that Satan is a spirit being but I don’t know if all spirits are referred to as angels .
I will say this thread is getting interesting to me as this is also a great subject to learn about,
I do hope we can all learn together in love.
God bless.
That's okay, Rick. I believe you are definitely on the right track. Kat gave some very good points and I can't find any fault with them either.
Satan is the "god of this world," so how could Jesus say before he died and resurrected:
John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Before He was hung on the cross and died and resurrected, and before Satan entered Judas who betrayed him, Jesus said I have already CONQUERED the world? But how could that be when Jesus was "made for a little while lower than the angels"?
Hi again Gina,
You ask a valid question no doubt, that scripture your talking about is Joh 16:33 I have said all these things to you so that in me you may have peace. In the world you have trouble: but take heart! I have overcome the world.
I know Ray said that Christ could not sin because God did not send any causes to cause Christ to sin yet we do know Christ was tempted like any other person, at least I believe He was tempted in the same way I would be tempted but never gave in.
Christ did say that He and the Father were one, maybe that’s the answer, being one with the Father, Christ was one with the Father and it was the Father that worked through Christ and so then Christ could say He has overcome the world because it was the Father who overcame the world.
Christ said He could do nothing on His own but with the Father He could indeed overcome the world.
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Where/how did the adversary's gender come from? Is there a scripture that identifies the enemy as a "he"? Been curious for awhile. Thanks
The truth is that the Scriptures do not give us a detailed discussion or answer regarding the gender or sexual differences of angels, if any.
In the Book of Job they are called sons of God. Elsewhere they have a masculine reference. Any girl angels? None mentioned in the Scriptures.
However, there is a Scripture that says the things seen (physical) can give us an idea of things unseen (spiritual). One pervasive aspect of human kind and animal kind, and even plant kind, is the aspect of male and female. God created them male and female.
Does that mean angels are male and female? Do not know. Scriptures don't say for sure.
Some will say that Jesus said the angels do not marry, which is true. However that does not mean that angels do not have sex differences since marriage and sex are two different things. You can have one without the other.
There are a whole lot of things we have to learn in the ages to come.
I believe what you say stands sound, beyond all the assumptions and interpretations man has come to.
Angels are by definition "messengers," just the translation of the word angels as angels erupts imagination. Which I believe investigates man/our/carnal imagination as to just what a celestial being is, as far as I know it is a host.
There is much in the Word, that man has made understood to man and that explains a lot to his/man understanding to what scripture is telling us.
I know the enemy-adversary-opponent is a very REAL spirit/being and has been given great power, yet the power of the enemy-adversary-opponent has been GIVEN....there are bounds set, SET by I Am I AM.
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Satan is the "god of this world," so how could Jesus say before he died and resurrected:
John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Before He was hung on the cross and died and resurrected, and before Satan entered Judas who betrayed him, Jesus said I have already CONQUERED the world? But how could that be when Jesus was "made for a little while lower than the angels"?
Here is a thought on this, Gina.
Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led in the Spirit in the wilderness 2 during forty days, being tempted of the devil...
Luke 4:13 And when the Devil had ended every (Strong's - all, any, every, the whole:) temptation, he departed from Him for a time.
v. 14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee...
I believe the temptations that Christ went through alone in the desert represented "every/all temptation" of the flesh... so that is how He could say "I have overcome the world" and what Christ was saying there continues over in the next chapter 17, all this He spoke 'before' His crucifixion.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
John 17:13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi You All!
John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....
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Hi You All!
John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....
I guess it's a good thing for me that there is no eternal hell fire. ???
However, you should read the link below. I'm a pussycat compared to how Jesus spoke.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
And old roofer Ray could make some choice comments.
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Satan is the "god of this world," so how could Jesus say before he died and resurrected:
John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
Before He was hung on the cross and died and resurrected, and before Satan entered Judas who betrayed him, Jesus said I have already CONQUERED the world? But how could that be when Jesus was "made for a little while lower than the angels"?
Here is a thought on this, Gina.
Luke 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led in the Spirit in the wilderness 2 during forty days, being tempted of the devil...
Luke 4:13 And when the Devil had ended every (Strong's - all, any, every, the whole:) temptation, he departed from Him for a time.
v. 14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee...
I believe the temptations that Christ went through alone in the desert represented "every/all temptation" of the flesh... so that is how He could say "I have overcome the world" and what Christ was saying there continues over in the next chapter 17, all this He spoke 'before' His crucifixion.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
John 17:13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thank you and I agree with that.
This is the email where Ray said that Satan means angel/messenger:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.msg17078.html#msg17078
John said that Jesus was under the subjection of Satan. But Satan is the prince of this world. Jesus said:
But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
John 3:31
The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is ABOVEall.
I want to make it clear that only those in the world are under the subjection (oppression) of Satan and his deceitful workers. Jesus Christ never was of this world so he could not have been oppressed by Satan. He was releasing captives who were oppressed by Satan. If Christ was oppressed (held CAPTIVE) by Satan, Christ could not have done one thing to free one person.
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John 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
So therefore, those who trust in God are not of this world, they are not under Satan or his deceitful workers' subjection (oppressed) (messengers/"angels of light"). They are Christ's, and as such - they have ministering angels.
Romans 8
35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 According as it is written that "On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter." 37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."
Paul could say that after having been tormented by a messenger of Satan. Even Paul was not oppressed.
So there ya go. I hope that made sense and was clear and helped someone besides me.
God bless. I'm finished here.
Gina
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I thought I would compile some of Ray's teaching on Satan and angels. Hopefully to get a better, more unified understanding on these things.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ---------------------------------
We will look at Scriptural proof that Satan was Satan from the beginning, and that God created him as he is. Satan did not create himself or free-will himself into the Devil.
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1;1).
We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God’s domain is a spiritual heaven.
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: ‘age’], against spiritual [Gk: ‘spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of’] wickedness in high places [Gk: ‘heavenly places’]” (Eph. 6:12).
So God created the plural “heavens” “in the beginning.” And Paul tells us that there are “principalities and powers” in these “heavenly places” or “celestials” as it is in the Greek. And that these “principalities and powers” are powers, hosts, or forces that are “wicked!”
“For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: ‘heavens”—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col. 1:16).
“Principalities and powers” are part of the “all” which Jesus created “in the beginning,” at the beginning of creation. And these “principalities and powers” are “wicked” forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority.
“But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow does not cast out devils [demons], but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils” (Matt. 12:24).
Beelzebub is from the Hebrew, Baal [a Phoenician deity] and Zbuwb [a fly], thus the “god fly.” Couple this with the knowledge of where flies hang out, and in parody, Satan was known as the dung god. Fitting, I think. Jesus accepted their use of this title for Satan:
“And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan [referring back to Beelzebub introduced by the Pharisees] cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?” (Matt. 12:25-26).
Satan never was a cherub possessing free will; neither does he now have free will. Satan is a creature that obeys the commands of his Creator and never talks back. Whenever Jesus told Satan to “get thee behind Me,” Satan got behind Him (Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:08). When God said he could go so far and no further in the trial of Job, then that’s precisely how far he went and no further. When Jesus told Satan “get thee hence… then the devil leaves Him…” (Matt. 4:10). Satan has no “free will” to resist.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html ------------------------------------
[Ray's reply]
Satan is a spirit being, seeing that he has been around for thousands of years. He is called a devil, serpent/snake, dragon, etc. We are not exactly sure what a dragon looks like, but supposedly it is in the reptile family as are snakes.
Nowhere that I can think of, did Satan ever appear visibly to anyone. Therefore his serpent/dragon qualities (or lack thereof) must be spiritual. Satan is a SPIRITUAL SNAKE. He has the secret, stealth qualities of a snake moving unseen in the dark. Although he is "like" [in certain characteristics] a roaring lion, he is not a lion, but "as" a lion he goes about seeking whom he may devour [Gk: 'swallow up' as in 'swallow a camel']. Spiritually devour/swallow.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6926.0.html ---------
Dear Charles: You are failing to understand just WHO Satans angels [messengers] are. The false teachers and pastors of Mystery Babylon the Great, the Great Church, ARE THE MESSENGERS OF SATAN! And it was for THEM that this eonian/lake of fire/second death was prepared.
http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html -----------------------
When mortal men are used in the capacity of an agent/messenger for God or any other authority. they are usually called in Hebrew, malak, translated "angel" 100+ times. All references to "angels" in the Old Testament are from the Hebrew #4397, 'malak'--whose definition is "a messenger (especially of God), that is, an angel (also, a prophet, priest or teacher): ambassador, angel, king, messenger" (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary).
"Malaks" can be invisible spirit angels, spirit angels manifested to appear as radiant, glowing men, spirit angels made to look like perfectly normal men with no supernatural radiance, or mortal men themselves are called "malak" when used in the capacity of a messenger.
Context usually dictates whether a "malak" is a spirit or a mortal man. When it appears that a spirit being sent from God is in view, malak is almost always translated "angel." However, when a mortal man is being used to convey a message from either God or a person of rank, malak is usually translated "messenger."
One exception is Malachi 3:1 where malak is translated, "My messenger..." with a lower case "m," while the second time we have, "...the Messenger of the covenant in Whom..." "Messenger" has a capital "M," and "Whom" has a capital "W," which might suggest that this Messenger is Jesus.
v
The Scriptures give us three categories of Agents of Satan the Devil:
MESSENGERS: Only once in Scripture do we read of "a messenger of Satan" (II Cor. 12:7). Messenger is here translated from Dr. Strong's #32 'angelos' which means: "a messenger, especially an angel, a pastor." Some Versions translate II Cor. 12:7 as "an angel of Satan" (Moffatt Translation); "an angel of Satan" (Emphatic Diaglott); "one of Satan's angels" (Phillip's Modern English New Testament). The Greek word 'angelos' has three meanings: "angel, messenger, and pastor." "Demon" is NOT a definition of angelos!
Of the hundreds and hundreds of different translations of the Scriptures, I know of none that translated the word "angelos" as "demon." And so we have conclusive proof from the Scriptures "the Devil's angels" are mortal men. The false prophet of Acts 13:6; the Pharisees whom Jesus called "children of the Wicked one" in Matt. 13:38; those Pharisees whom Jesus said had the Devil for their father in John 8:44; Satan's "ministers of righteousness" in II Cor. 11:14-15); are all human, mortal men, not spirits--despicable, disgusting, dirty, demons!
Now then, how many of my readers believe that Bill's demon pictured above, or the group of demons pictured above are "pastors" or "ministers of the gospel?" Probably none of you. An "angelos' is an "angel," a "messenger," or a "pastor." So now let's answer the question: Do the angels/messengers/pastors of the Devil look like, [1] evil, ugly, animalistic, spirit demons with Zero IQ's? or [2] non-descript, invisible spirits, or [3] pleasant-looking, mortal, humans? Nowhere in Scriptures do we ever find a description of demons as Bill presents in his book. Such creatures are fraudulent deceptions of carnal-minded deceivers.
Bible examples of physical mortal angels:
"And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father's household, and all that she had; and she dwells in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers [Heb: 'malak'], which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho" (Joshua 6:25)
Comment: It is not necessary to "hide" spirit angels which can appear and disappear at will. These were mortal men of Israel.
"And when the messengers of John were departed, He began to speak unto the people concerning John" (Lk. 7:24)
John's messengers were mortal men.
Bible example of God's heavenly spirit angels:
"And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels [Heb: 'malak'] of God ascending and descending on it: (Gen. 28:12).
"Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels [Gk: 'angelos'] do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
v
There is Scriptural evidence for angels which have left their first commission, and which have sinned (Jude 1:6 & II Pet.2:4), but there is no such term as "fallen angels" in Scripture.
You won't find the word "demon" in the King James Version. The Greek word translated "devils" in the King James is, daimon, and means "a demon or super natural spirit of a bad nature," Strong's Greek Dictionary). "Devils" should be translated "demons" seeing that there is only one Devil--Satan (Rev. 12:9).
Demons can think and they can speak with human voices, as witnessed by those cast out by Jesus and the apostles. There alone is proof that Bill's assertion that demons have "zero IQ" is a fabricated crock. No one has ever seen a real demon as they are spirit, and they are not visible. We are never told that we might on occasion entertain "demons unaware," as we might entertain angels (Heb. 3:2).
"Angels," however, can be either visible or invisible, and are often called "men." Sometimes they seem to be manifested as physical men (Acts 10:3 & 30 and Luke 24:4), but in reality they are actually spirit beings. Mortal men when used of God are called angels or messengers which, like all men, are destined to die.
However, spirit angels in Heaven can never die:
"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:36).
Heavenly angels are spirit and can never die, but are able at times to manifest themselves as if they were normal mortal men:
"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares" (Heb. 13:2).
It would be impossible to be "unaware" of a humanly manifested angel, except that they can manifest themselves without a hint of being supernatural.
But at other times the manifestation of an angel in the form of a man also radiates a supernatural glory that defies normal humans. In Matt. 28:1-4, the women said that "the Angel of the Lord descended from heaven. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow." He told them to not fear, but in this same account in Mark 16:5-6, the women said that they saw "a young MAN...closed in a long white garment" who told them to not fear. So this angel was so radiant that it frightened the women, but yet they saw him as a "young MAN."
Therefore, "angels" can be [1] immortal spirits from God in Heaven, (as with the angel that was first invisible to Balaam, but then later was made visible, Num. 22:31), or [2] if needed, they can manifest themselves to appear as normal humans, but with a radiance that shows they are supernatural beings which are only taking on human form (See Judges 13:6), or [3] they can so perfectly make themselves visible and in human form so that anyone would be unaware that they are really angels from Heaven (See Heb. 13:2 above).
http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm ----------------------------
Hi Ray,
(Matthew 18:10 KJVA) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I have a question about guardian angels. Does scripture support this concept? What did Jesus mean by "their angels"?
Your brother,
Pat
[Ray Replies]
Dear Pat:
Interesting question!
The phrase "guarding angel" does not appear in Scripture. And, as you probably already know, a much better and more accurate translation for angels is "messengers."
Now then, do messengers "guard" us or anyone? Do they serve other functions a the behest of God?
Yes, they do. Here is a direct statement about just what messengers do:
"But to which of the angels [messengers] said He at any time, Sit on My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool? Are they [messengers] not ALL MINISTERING SPIRITS, sent forth to MINISTER for THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS OF SALVATION?"
So we all have "ministering spiritual ministers (angels--messengers) from heaven" performing many things in our behalf.
Notice that Jesus said in Matt. 18:10 that these angels "...always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven." The "face" is used in Scripture as that which is most intimate--the face houses the eyes which are the windows of the soul. The angels of heaven are most attentive to the very sincerest wishes of the Father. Next let's look at an example of just such an one actually performing a task on earth which came from the "face of the Father":
"And there appeared unto him [Zascharias--father of John Baptist] an ANGEL of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense... And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD [in the presence of HIS FACE]; and am SENT [they are MINISTERING spirits] to speak unto thee, and to show you these glad tidings" (Luke 1:11 & 19).
Now Gabriel is of pretty high rank, and as such may not be assigned to any one of us personally, but rather is used for the very most important messages. However, they are all ably trained to do their jobs. None has ever spoken to me directly... yet.
Now just because angels do not speak to us audibly and in plain sight, does not preclude that they do no continue ministering unto us to this very day.
Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
p.s. John, I could not find the email you referenced in reply #20...
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Gina wrote:
John said that Jesus was under the subjection of Satan.
Another lie.
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Kat,
Here is the email, just as I said.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
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One more...
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now if the devil was an angel.... ?
Because of the hatred in your heart for me, I know you reject anything I say.
But, will you believe Ray? Below is a quote from Ray's emails, under the Topic of Satan, email titled "Worship me", dated 10-10-2006.
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14). Next notice Heb. 2:5--"For unto the ANGELS has He not put in subjection the world to come." Ah, did you catch that? Unlike the "world today," the "world to come," will NOT be under the subjection of angels. Satan is pretends to be "an angel of light" in this world's nations, but not so in the "world to come."
Before you try to teach, it may be best to have some education and understanding of Scripture.
Just Sayin........
Well, first of all I don't hate you. And second of all Ray clearly stated (you're trying to pull a fast one, John?):
Satan pretends to be "an angel of light."
All angels are ministering servants that care for the saints.
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Do you really think that Jesus was made LOWER than Satan and his viper offspring? If you say, Oh, sure, I do! Then how could Jesus have seen Satan falling? How could Jesus have any power over Him and cast out demons being LOWER than Satan? Was Jesus a little lower than Satan?
It is clear you lack understanding of basic truths.
When Jesus was emptied from what He was before (God) to be a flesh and blood human, in order to suffer death, he was lower than angelic spirit life (which includes Satan who was an angel as Ray said). In terms of existence, a human life is of a lower quality than angelic spirit life.
Of course, following His Resurrection, Jesus was as He was before, having all power in Heaven and earth. After our Resurrection, we will be like Him, and will be higher than angels and heirs of the ages to come.
Okay, someone called me a liar. They said that Jesus' life in human form was LOWER in "quality" than Satan's spirit "life." Meaning because the world is in subjection to angels, and Jesus was lower than the angels being in human form and having emptied himself, Jesus too was in subjection to the angelic spirits (of which Satan is?)
No, Jesus' quality of life was not lower than Satan's quality of "life," because Satan dines on the carnal mind.
And to be carnally minded is DEATH. Satan's food is from below. Satan's food is death and decay. That's sick!
Jesus was not carnally minded. So Satan couldn't feed on Jesus in any way shape or form.
In fact, even His disciples had to urge Jesus to eat back in John 4 because He looked hungry! Why? Because Jesus wasn't very interested in eating their food. That's why. "I have food to eat that you know nothing about. My food is to do the will of Him who sent me."
Any creature who dines on things that are dead or decaying cannot possibly have a higher quality of life than someone who is eating GOOD WHOLESOME FOOD. Can't happen. But John says that Jesus' quality of life as a mere human was lower than Satan's because Satan is an "angel," and therefore Satan's "life" was higher in "quality" than Jesus' when Jesus took on the form of human. That's not true because Jesus ate food that John knows nothing of.
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Gina,
The reason I call you a liar is because you take my words then twist them into statements I did not say. Those twisted statements come from your mind.
I never said Jesus was subject to Satan. Even in His human existence Jesus was the Master over Satan. How? Because Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure.
One way in which human life is lower than angel life is that humans can die. Angels do not die since they are spirit. That is why the Scriptures say Jesus was made lower than the angels, so that He could die. When Jesus was the Almighty God in Power He could not die or be killed. Am I going too fast for you?
Now I assume you will twist my words again into some lie from your mind. You have a spirit of hatred and bitterness and lies within you. You do know from where that comes?
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Gina,
The reason I call you a liar is because you take my words then twist them into statements I did not say. Those twisted statements come from your mind.
I never said Jesus was subject to Satan. Even in His human existence Jesus was the Master over Satan. How? Because Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure.
One way in which human life is lower than angel life is that humans can die. Angels do not die since they are spirit. That is why the Scriptures say Jesus was made lower than the angels, so that He could die. When Jesus was the Almighty God in Power He could not die or be killed. Am I going too fast for you?
Now I assume you will twist my words again into some lie from your mind. You have a spirit of hatred and bitterness and lies within you. You do know from where that comes?
....said the Messenger of Satan to torment and buffet me. Meh~ :D
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Thank you for the great writings by Ray on Satan and angels, Kat; they were really informative.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Hi You All!
John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....
I guess it's a good thing for me that there is no eternal hell fire. ???
However, you should read the link below. I'm a pussycat compared to how Jesus spoke.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
And old roofer Ray could make some choice comments.
John, Jesus didn't have a log in his eye and his judgements are righteous judgements, you how ever are not righteous. I don't need you to point out links to LRays teachings.
The Elect are not the righteous judges in this life, they are the ones in judgement and not by each other but by JESUS!!!
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Hi You All!
John from Kentucky maybe judge whats in your heart, because I am sure you don't know anyone elses and quit saying negative things about others you sound like a school yard bully....
I guess it's a good thing for me that there is no eternal hell fire. ???
However, you should read the link below. I'm a pussycat compared to how Jesus spoke.
http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
And old roofer Ray could make some choice comments.
The Elect are not the righteous judges in this life, they are the ones in judgement and not by each other but by JESUS!!!
Hi Michael,
That is totally awesome. :)
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Could it be that what Satan 'pretends to be' is not "an angel", but "an angel of LIGHT."? Just trying to read all the words. I'm not so sure, either, that he is 'pretending' to be anything. Maybe 'transforms himself' means 'pretending'--maybe not.
I agree with Micah's post earlier. The most helpful thing for me has been to read "messenger" when I encounter the word "angel" and let the context and description 'define' what kind of angel it's talking about. That works better than assuming I know what an angel is and trying to squeeze that 'understanding' into what's being said.
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Satan is transforming himself into an angel of light, is how it is translated.
He is not an angel of light, or an angel or messenger at all as far as I can see, and not everyone agrees that Satan means angel or messenger.
(Does Strong's translate Satan as angel/messenger? I couldn't figure it out.)
I think there are going to be many disagreements regarding Satan's classification here, but from the verses I've seen, Satan is an adversary and is a destroyer and a crooked serpent, who transforms himself to appear as an "angel of light."
Here's why I say this:
1 Peter 1:10 from the Concordant Literal
[Nah, scratch that --not gonna put it here -- confusing to me and maybe a few others.]
1 Peter 1 English Standard Version
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.
From a bible commentary:
The verb παρακύψαι means "to stoop sideways;" it is used of persons standing outside a place who stoop in order to look in. "The παρά of the verb," says Huther, "indicates that the angels stand outside the work of redemption, inasmuch as it is not for them, but for man (cf. Hebrews 2:16)." The same verb occurs in James 1:25; John 20:5, 11; Luke 24:12, in which last place it is used of Peter himself, when he stooped to look into the empty sepulcher on the morning of the Lord's resurrection. St. Paul has a similar thought in Ephesians 3:10, "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms," The attitude of the golden cherubim, whose wings covered the mercy-seat and whose faces were toward it (Exodus 25:20), seems to imply the same rapt, reverent attention.
Putting reverent [ feeling or showing deep and solemn respect] and Satan in the same sentence seems rather strange to me. I don't see Satan yearning to look or stooping sideways to look; and unlike angels (ministering angels?) who, according to the above, stand outside the work of redemption inasmuch as it is not for them, but man, Satan plays an active role in our salvation. And besides, Satan and his "angels" are going into the purifying Lake of Fire / Second Death, inasmuch Jesus came to undo the works of the devil.
So, as far as I can see, Satan is not an angel or an angel of light. He's a destroyer/adversary.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God (some versions say "angels," others say "members of the heavenly court," and another says "divine beings" and Concordant calls them the "sons of Elohim") came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
It's like, I can see a very clear distinction between "the sons of God/angels/divine beings" who came to present themselves before the Lord and ... Satan came among them. And it's funny because God's all... Where did you come from, Satan? (as if God didn't know). Satan was roaming the earth and walking around in it. Do those angels that some have entertained unawares, also roam the earth and walk around in it (seeking whom they may devour")?
Is Satan a "son of God"? Is he "divine"?
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Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.
Mark 9:20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...
Luke 9:39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.
Luke 9:42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.
Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.
Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.
Acts 23:9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."
So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Gina, I am beginning to see your point, that 'angels' are God's servants. So to try to find just how angel is referred to in Scripture I scanned through all of the times the word angel/angels in used in the NKJV... what I found is that in 'every' case in the OT it is speaking of a angel/messenger of God. Now in the NT here are the exceptions of angels not spoken of as from God.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Okay this is interesting because in the article 23 Mins in Hell Ray explain that in all of these cases it is speaking of 'human' messenger, not spirit beings. Now there is one more verse and I will not try to interpret what the meaning of what Paul is saying here is.
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
So if angels are God's Holy servants from His throne, and a few times refer to human beings... well what about the wicked spirits and demons (I did not include a search for demons, as I believe that is self explanatory)? But here is what I found in a search of the word "spirit"... now there are numerous times that word is used in reference to the Holy Spirit, and to the spirit/breath of life in a person and the spirit/disposition of a person. What I have listed here is all the places where I could make out from the context and the use of the word that it was speaking of a 'spirit being.'
Mark 1:26 And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.
Mark 5:8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
Mark 9:17 Then one of the crowd answered and said, "Teacher, I brought You my son, who has a mute spirit.
Mark 9:20 Then they brought him to Him. And when he saw Him, immediately the spirit convulsed him, and he fell on the ground and wallowed, foaming at the mouth.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!"
Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man...
Luke 9:39 And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him.
Luke 9:42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
Luke 13:11 And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.
Acts 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And he came out that very hour.
Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
Also I want to add that Christ actually used the word "spirit" when casting them out of a person on 3 of those occasions. Also after His resurrection when He appeared to his disciples where they were gathered and all of them had not seen Him yet, so they seemed afraid about what He was, He told them He was not just a spirit...
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
v. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
v. 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
There is also one Scripture that shows that there is a difference in "a spirit" and "an angel" by referring to them both in the same sentence.
Acts 23:9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."
So that is what I have found, I think this is all very interesting, explains a lot.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks for gathering that. There's a lot there to consider - I can't really grasp it all right now. I'm going to pray about it.
:)
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Hi Gina,
I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few exceptions that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.
I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Even Jesus used the term "a spirit" when speaking of spiritual beings not from God.
So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).
The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith. But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong. Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer. ;D
I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. ???
People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray. They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures. They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.
One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.
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John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?
If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...
2Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.
G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;
This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Now I don't know if Ray studied this aspect of what we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Gina,
I thought I would just let the Scripture speak for itself. But I will say what I observed from the search... that where 'angels' were spoken of as spirit beings in both the OT and the NT, it was always speaking of God's servants. There were those few excepts that I mentioned, but Ray had explained those 'angels' were Pastors, human beings... I showed that in the post with the excerpt from the 23 mins in hell article.
I also put all those scripture that spoke of the wicked spirit beings. What I found is that when these were spoken of it was always as 'a spirit,' never as an angel. Jesus even used "a spirit" when speaking of a spiritual being not from God.
So that was my point, as you had mentioned several times that when angels were spoken of in Scripture they were speaking about God's angel/messenger.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Now it's coming clearer. Thanks, Kat. That is interesting that the wicked spirits were only referred to as spirits not angels.
Remember when Jesus came walking on the water to the disciples. They though they saw a ghost/spirit (can't see spirit) and they were very afraid:
"It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear." But it was not a spirit or a ghost. It was Jesus and Jesus said, to his disciples: It's Me, relax. He doesn't want his disciples to live in fear.
Whereas what I noticed now is that, in every instance where Jesus cast out demons in the people who were oppressed of Satan, the spirits always seemed to be trembling in fear; even the legion demons who spoke to Jesus seemed to be very afraid of Jesus: What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come to torment us before the time? Matt. 8:29 As if a Lamb who takes way the sin of the world really is a torment. They lie so much.
God does not give to us a spirit of fear.
But the timid/cowards, etc., will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Makes me wonder what Satan this "prince" is really all about. Sounds like big scaredy cat to me. :-D
Jesus said that there was coming a day when he would plainly tell his disciples what the heck was going on. And He did and Paul heard him clearly too.
1 Timothy 4:1 The HOLY Spirit clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the
faith [ the plain and clear and simple teaching of Christ ], paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines [CONFUSING teachings] of demons. That's why that man among the tombs was so out of his mind -- he was totally confused and fearful having paid any attention to a spirit that teaches you to be fearful and afraid.
That's the way I see it. I'm sure there's more and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut and let scripture also speak for itself, but you know... this stuff is interesting and maybe it'll be of help to someone?
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John I certainly respect what Ray taught to a great degree, always have. Now just as Ray did, we are trying to get to the truth of a matter... did Ray have 'all' truth? Did Ray even put all the understanding that he knew in his articles?
If we are always standing behind Ray, how can we see Christ? We should be standing with Ray and as he never ceased to search the Scripture, so should we. Here is the verse in question, does it say Satan is an angel...
2Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms(G3345) himself into an angel of light.
G3345 metaschēmatizō
to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
Disguise - 1. to change the appearance of to conceal the identity or to resemble another. 2. To hide by a counterfeit appearance;
This is not even saying that Satan is an angel, but is disguised as one, and we do have Scripture that calls Satan "a spirit."
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Now I don't know if Ray studied the aspect of this that we are talking about, but regardless we can and should, and this is what I found and have shown it here to help in this study. This is a very small part of the study on this matter and certainly did not discredit Ray in any way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kat,
This whole question is a minor point and not really worth a great deal of discussion.
I do not agree with Ray on 100% (maybe 98% :D) of his teachings, but in this one I'll stick with old Ray the roofer.
As Dave mentioned in his above post, Satan poses as an angel of light, with the emphasis on light.
Satan poses as an angel(messenger) of light.
When actually Satan is an angel(messenger) of darkness.
And as Ray further expounds in item (2) of his email that I quoted, the angels will not be over the ages to come, but the children of God will be over the future ages.
Now, evil spirit angels are over the present world. Satan is prince over those forces. And as Jesus' temptation in the desert showed, Satan has the power to bestow the riches and the power of this world (age) on whom he wishes (within the bounds set on him by God).
The Scriptures reveal that there is God. That there is humankind. And higher than humankind but below God, there are billions (?) of spirit beings, both good and evil, generically called angels in the translations, whom God has given various things to do, both good and evil. There is more that we don't know than what we do know about these angelic spirit beings.
Now I'll get off so some can hurl the brick bats at me and accuse me of evil things, and not being loving, not being humble, etc., etc., etc. What fun! :-*
Maybe this will help, I've seen others do it,
JFK,
Your loving, humble brother in Christ, in the Holy City of New Jerusalem, Macedonian, Berean, Maranatha, in the Holy Ghost, did I say humble?, yada, yada, yoda, and yogi----Amen and Amen
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Kat,
Here's another thing:
1 Peter 5:7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around as a roaring lion....
Concordant says: 8 Be sober! Watch! For your plaintiff* the Adversary, is walking about as a roaring lion..."
*Plaintiff: Synonym accuser/complainant/complainer/complaining person
Definition: one who expresses dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure (I've been confusing censure with censorship - two different things - whoops!), resentment, or grief; finding fault (as Satan wanted so badly to find fault with Job),
Disguised as an angel of "light" Someone of the light has great heavenly wisdom and understanding:
"But, if You ever removed the hedge around Job, he'd curse You to Your face ..."
That was yet another prophetic lie (you will not surely die!), for which Satan must die...isn't that how it goes? If someone prophesies and their prophesy fails, that's a false prophet and they have to die? Or something like that?
;D
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G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
transformed, 2
2Co_11:14-15 (2)
change, 1
Phi_3:21
figure, 1
1Co_4:6
transferred, 1
1Co_4:6
Just to get at the meaning of this word, though it's difficult here.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
These refer largely back to vs. 4
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted...
Sounds like most of my time in the synagogue of satan.
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Here's a testimony. It did me a lot of good to do that little study--and not just for the sake of the 'topic' at hand--as it forced me to look deeper (and again) into 2 Cor. 11 It's strange how that seems to work over and over again.
I'll spare you the sermon from the above. You'll either need it or you won't. I did. You'll either see it or you won't, and if you see it, you'll either obey it or you won't. The jury is still out on me on that score.
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I get ya Dave!
Heard a few ministers of satan speak myself, in a few synagogues of satan...
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Masquerade and disguise fits this better in my humble opinion. Satan wears a mask and a disguise. He's not the scary demon. He's the pussycat.
Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"
You see that? He acts like the commands of God are mere statements. "Has God said, you shall NOT eat from any tree...?
But God, I believe, was instructing/commanding them this way :
"From every tree of the garden, you are to [surely] eat, yea, eat. 17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall [must] you be dying.
(God wasn't just pleasantly offering them some of his food to eat, he was saying, eat it! Is how I see it. You know, because it was good, and God wants His children have good food.)
And Eve said to the serpent (and try to see if you can hear a tone in her voice):
"From the fruit of the trees of the garden we are eating, 3 yet from the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, the Elohim says, `Not eat of it shall you, and not touch it shall you, lest* you be dying.'"
Is that what God said?
God said: From every tree of the garden, you are to [surely] eat, yea, eat. 17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.,
Eve said "lest" you be dying. Do you know what the word lest means: "because of the possibility of something undesirable happening," Wow! As if it was only a possibility. She didn't understand.
Then, she left out the part about "in the day you eat from it." I guess she forgot all about that.
I don't know -- the way she spoke about what God commanded her, she was funny - in a not so funny kinda way. She made it sound like eating from the trees in the garden was a boring chore or something, like she was so fed up (pun intended) "from the fruit of the trees we are eating." Sounds heavenly..... not.
From what I can see, her attitude was not one of appreciation or love and respect for what her Creator was giving them, is the feeling I'm getting. But I don't know. I'm not faulting her -- I know if I was there, I'd have done the same thing.
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Here is a little something Ray had to say about 2Cor. 11
Devil and Angels?
« on: November 28, 2008, 08:30:34 PM »
I read alot of your materials and I pretty much agree with everything I have read so far. But one verse has been troubling me and I cant seem to put it together and that is Mathew 25:41.
"Prepared for the devil and his angels"? Could you please expound on this verse a little further as this is a difficult one for me in light of your teachings.
Thanks, Mike.
Dear Mike: In Scripture, angels, messengers, and ministers are used interchangeably.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels [#32] spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Greek: #32, aggelos, From aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a PASTOR: - angel, messenger. (Strong's Concordance).
Now then, notice what Paul says concerning Satan and his "ministers"--
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousness; whose end [eonian/gehenna/hell/lake of fire JUDGMENT] shall be according to their works.
It is the false ministers (the "ministers of righteousness") of Mystery Babylon--The CHURCH, who are to be judged in this "eonian" fire along with their many millions of followers. See my last Installment: "The Lake of Fire and the Second Death."
God be with you,
Ray
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).
The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith. But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong. Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer. ;D
I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. ???
People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray. They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures. They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.
One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.
Hi John,
I agree with Kat, just wanted you to understand that, Ray explained to all of us about the twelve spiritual truths, did Ray explain these things so we could not advance in knowledge ?
If someone starts talking to us in a direction that leads us away from the truth then we can deal with that lying spirit at the time we discover it.
I wonder how much Ray would of understood the things of God if he were told not to deviate from the teachings of Christendom ?
I believe you understand John, don’t be afraid to grow in knowledge and truth beyond Ray, he gave us enough to go on and grow, its like Kat said we stand behind Ray, John, but there is something more important than Ray here, and that would be Christ, why hinder the spirit ?
I do commend you for your loyalty to Ray but you know John, your not the only one loyal to Ray John, but our loyalty should be to Christ and Christ only, if you feel diffident I’ll not argue with you, go for it.
ct 5:39 However, if it's from God, you won't be able to stop them. You may even discover that you're fighting against God."
You’re a smart man John, in the things of God, no doubt.
Take care John and God bless you.
-
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).
The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith. But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong. Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer. ;D
I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. ???
People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray. They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures. They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.
One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.
Hi John,
I agree with Kat, just wanted you to understand that, Ray explained to all of us about the twelve spiritual truths, did Ray explain these things so we could not advance in knowledge ?
If someone starts talking to us in a direction that leads us away from the truth then we can deal with that lying spirit at the time we discover it.
I wonder how much Ray would of understood the things of God if he were told not to deviate from the teachings of Christendom ?
I believe you understand John, don’t be afraid to grow in knowledge and truth beyond Ray, he gave us enough to go on and grow, its like Kat said we stand behind Ray, John, but there is something more important than Ray here, and that would be Christ, why hinder the spirit ?
I do commend you for your loyalty to Ray but you know John, your not the only one loyal to Ray John, but our loyalty should be to Christ and Christ only, if you feel diffident I’ll not argue with you, go for it.
ct 5:39 However, if it's from God, you won't be able to stop them. You may even discover that you're fighting against God."
You’re a smart man John, in the things of God, no doubt.
Take care John and God bless you.
Hello Rick,
I follow Jesus. One thing I disagreed with Ray on was Ray calling himself a teacher. I have Scripture that says only Jesus is our teacher.
But be that as it may, Ray was a powerful expounder of God's Word. He was especially strong in providing at least two witnesses of Scripture on the points he was making. It was the Scriptures and God's Spirit that made Ray's statements powerful.
And before you think Ray was wrong in the email I quoted, you should become more learned in the Scriptures yourself. Ray does have at least two Scriptures to support his statement in that email. I know those Scriptures, do you? Before you reject what Ray wrote, you should find those Scriptures and see if you can refute them.
A lot of the chatter on here is based on personality. Who likes who.
But a true man of God follows that Scripture that says we should tremble at God's Word. My advice to you is to put God and His Word first in your life, before supposed teachings of men.
Let me let you in on a secret. The Many, both here and in the World, do not follow the two witnesses. What they will do is do a scripture dump, where they will quote many Scriptures, then proceed to give you their opinions on what the Scriptures mean.
Do not be deceived.
What Ray showed us is that one needs at least two Scriptures to establish a Truth. The two Scriptures do not need interpretation. The Two Scriptures, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will clearly show the Truth and it will not contradict any other Scripture. God does not lie and His Word does not lie. Those are paramount Truths as old roofer Ray said.
But some here will admit they do not know the Scriptural answer on something, then proceed to quote Scriptures, then give us their opinion. The blind follow the blind.
Put so called teachers to a test. Ask them to provide the Two Witnesses to their statements. Two clear Scriptures. Most cannot or will not do that.
Compare the clarity of what Ray wrote to the confused ramblings of many teacher wannabes.
Before you throw Ray aside, for more truth, make sure you know where you are being led. Just sayin.
May God bless your path too,
John
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JFK,
I love you man. Your humility is an inspiration ;) :D :D :P
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I just thought of something...Jesus said we will know them by their fruit.
Jesus didn't say we would know them for what they really are (deceitful spirits / deceitful workers / workers of lawlessness) by their appearance. Because you can't know them by their appearance -- they're wolves disguised in sheep's clothing; wolves masquerading as sheep/shepherds. They're darnel which looks very similar in appearance to the true wheat.
Jesus didn't say that we would know them by what name or title they go by or by what name or title anyone gives them. We will know them for what they truly are (deceitful workers of lawlessness) by their fruit.
Jesus didn't say we would know them by the positions of authority they slither into.
We will know them for what they truly are by their fruit.
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JFK,
I love you man. Your humility is an inspiration ;) :D :D :P
Hi Alex,
We all appreciate your admiration and love for our brother J from K , but why not add to this tread and let the rest of us know what your take is on the subject.
But to only say ( I love you man ) well ,what are we to do with that? Just wondering my brother in Christ.
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For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Matt 24:24
The comforting news is: If you're an elect, it is not possible to be deceived or come under the spell of these false workers, false messiahs, and false prophets (you will never worship them or be led astray by them, so be of good cheer).
(They deceive themselves, so be sober, be vigilant. Believe that if Bible-truths was to fold and go up in smoke tomorrow (not that I wish that), God would see you through. He will never forsake you.)
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JFK,
I love you man. Your humility is an inspiration ;) :D :D :P
Hi Alex,
We all appreciate your admiration and love for our brother J from K , but why not add to this tread and let the rest of us know what your take is on the subject.
But to only say ( I love you man ) well ,what are we to do with that? Just wondering my brother in Christ.
Hi Rick,
I'm sorry I have not contributed. I don't want to add any confusion to what already appears to be a dizzying array of perspectives. Give me some time and I will try and share if I feel that my response can be more than, "I agree with what so-and-so said."
God bless,
Alex
-
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2109.0.html
[2] Satan is an "angel" which means "messenger" in both Hebrew and Greek (II Cor. 11:14).
The above is a direct quote from Ray Smith. But to listen to some of the scriptural scholars and teachers among us, I guess Ray is wrong. Oh well, what can you expect from a mere roofer. ;D
I thought one reason for this Forum was to discuss the scriptural understandings of Ray Smith. ???
People like to say they appreciate the teachings of Ray. They like to say they know and believe in the Scriptures. They like to say how much they love people, and how humble they are, and how good they are.
One thing I learned from Ray, and Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Most people, the Many, are full of spiritual crap, and they do not like it when they are exposed.
Hi John,
I agree with Kat, just wanted you to understand that, Ray explained to all of us about the twelve spiritual truths, did Ray explain these things so we could not advance in knowledge ?
If someone starts talking to us in a direction that leads us away from the truth then we can deal with that lying spirit at the time we discover it.
I wonder how much Ray would of understood the things of God if he were told not to deviate from the teachings of Christendom ?
I believe you understand John, don’t be afraid to grow in knowledge and truth beyond Ray, he gave us enough to go on and grow, its like Kat said we stand behind Ray, John, but there is something more important than Ray here, and that would be Christ, why hinder the spirit ?
I do commend you for your loyalty to Ray but you know John, your not the only one loyal to Ray John, but our loyalty should be to Christ and Christ only, if you feel diffident I’ll not argue with you, go for it.
ct 5:39 However, if it's from God, you won't be able to stop them. You may even discover that you're fighting against God."
You’re a smart man John, in the things of God, no doubt.
Take care John and God bless you.
Hello Rick,
I follow Jesus. One thing I disagreed with Ray on was Ray calling himself a teacher. I have Scripture that says only Jesus is our teacher.
But be that as it may, Ray was a powerful expounder of God's Word. He was especially strong in providing at least two witnesses of Scripture on the points he was making. It was the Scriptures and God's Spirit that made Ray's statements powerful.
And before you think Ray was wrong in the email I quoted, you should become more learned in the Scriptures yourself. Ray does have at least two Scriptures to support his statement in that email. I know those Scriptures, do you? Before you reject what Ray wrote, you should find those Scriptures and see if you can refute them.
A lot of the chatter on here is based on personality. Who likes who.
But a true man of God follows that Scripture that says we should tremble at God's Word. My advice to you is to put God and His Word first in your life, before supposed teachings of men.
Let me let you in on a secret. The Many, both here and in the World, do not follow the two witnesses. What they will do is do a scripture dump, where they will quote many Scriptures, then proceed to give you their opinions on what the Scriptures mean.
Do not be deceived.
What Ray showed us is that one needs at least two Scriptures to establish a Truth. The two Scriptures do not need interpretation. The Two Scriptures, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will clearly show the Truth and it will not contradict any other Scripture. God does not lie and His Word does not lie. Those are paramount Truths as old roofer Ray said.
But some here will admit they do not know the Scriptural answer on something, then proceed to quote Scriptures, then give us their opinion. The blind follow the blind.
Put so called teachers to a test. Ask them to provide the Two Witnesses to their statements. Two clear Scriptures. Most cannot or will not do that.
Compare the clarity of what Ray wrote to the confused ramblings of many teacher wannabes.
Before you throw Ray aside, for more truth, make sure you know where you are being led. Just sayin.
May God bless your path too,
John
Hi John,
Don’t think I don’t appreciate your wisdom and understanding in the things of God, only a fool would not.
I remember a time when you ridicule another and myself for saying things without using scripture and I only want to say I was wrong and you were right. I’m not a prophet as you once referred to me as I’m a nobody in this life, may God keep it that way also.
You taught me the important’s of using at least two scriptures when talking about the things of God. I hope you notices lately that I do used scripture these days when expressing what I believe.
I love your zeal for both God and truth and I know only Jesus can bring such things about, I read your reply and the warnings therein you mentioned and am very thankful you care enough to say so.
My intentions here is not to cause strife or dissension, I like you, desire the truth, life is difficult John, and learning the truth is even more difficult and being or getting saved is even harder.
Please, don’t put me on the list of those who prefer you not, I personally think you’re a man who just wants the truth and has no issue exposing those who contradict, and for that John, I do thank you.
May God just not bless you alone but may He bless us all.
-
JFK,
I love you man. Your humility is an inspiration ;) :D :D :P
Hi Alex,
We all appreciate your admiration and love for our brother J from K , but why not add to this tread and let the rest of us know what your take is on the subject.
But to only say ( I love you man ) well ,what are we to do with that? Just wondering my brother in Christ.
Hi Rick,
I'm sorry I have not contributed. I don't want to add any confusion to what already appears to be a dizzying array of perspectives. Give me some time and I will try and share if I feel that my response can be more than, "I agree with what so-and-so said."
God bless,
Alex
Hi Alex,
I understand your meaning Alex however I know you have so much to offer, and you really do Alex, I’m sorry you feel things have become a disarray of understanding, but please don’t feel your input would keep us there in that which you believe where in.
I hope your studies as a doctor are going well for you, I think you’ll do well Alex, your very smart and I’m happy for you, May God keep you in His wisdom and may people’s health stay good in your care.
God bless you my brother in Christ, if I’m fortunate enough to be in Christ, then we are brothers if not, I’m sure you’ll be kind and helpful to me in the next life. God bless.
-
Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
Hi Rick ... My Own words - I can elaborate but to start...
I believe that Satan is the carnal influence and I firmly believe Jesus is The Spiritual influence
"Heart" is ones mind (translated) i.E. heart of stone vs heart of flesh
I have many scriptures, however if I dump them and one has a carnal mind what good is that.
Satan will present the opposite of what the word presents But to the carnal mind he appears as an angel of light (he makes common sense)as opposed to the word which makes no (common sense) but is generally abrasive and against that which is taught by men...
Satan does fall like lightening from heaven - this is, understanding where heaven is... firstly my word tells me heaven is within us so heaven is not "up there" luk 17v21 heaven to me is a realm of higher understanding (above the intelligence of mere man)once you are filled with Gods spirit (which is a process) you will walk above the "sea" of humanity and when you get pulled down into it ,you are able to call out as Peter did "Lord save me" matt 14v30 (when one is born one is immediately cast into THIS WORLD (system) after a time you OVERCOME THIS WORLD.
Satan falls like lightening when the Spirit imparts understanding when this happens there is usually much violence in as much as wrestling with past knowledge that one has acquired from Satan (carnal mind).Matt 11v12 as opposed to a new understanding from the Holy Spirit, Ezekiel 36v26
Also important is the 1st few words namely The Kingdom of Heaven COMES....(whether we like it or not) to me this is a process there is a lot of "clutter" to get rid of 1st.. some would say that is the purpose of this lifetime in the worldly sense.
I believe and I have scripture that even in this world...one can walk above (in the heavens)
To Say "Satan Made me do it" is not far from the truth, according to Gen 3v13 . You answer is the verse preceding v 13
To wrap up ,Consider this... The Spirit brings life and peace John 6 vs 63 as opposed to Rom 8v6
THIS ABOVE IS MY UNDERSTANDING THOUGH
PS
There are ways to get your compensation for your pool.. don't fear a major insurance company, take them on ... That is, if you believe you are a "citizen"
-
Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
Hi Rick ... My Own words - I can elaborate but to start...
I believe that Satan is the carnal influence and I firmly believe Jesus is The Spiritual influence
"Heart" is ones mind (translated) i.E. heart of stone vs heart of flesh
I have many scriptures, however if I dump them and one has a carnal mind what good is that.
Satan will present the opposite of what the word presents But to the carnal mind he appears as an angel of light (he makes common sense)as opposed to the word which makes no (common sense) but is generally abrasive and against that which is taught by men...
Satan does fall like lightening from heaven - this is, understanding where heaven is... firstly my word tells me heaven is within us so heaven is not "up there" luk 17v21 heaven to me is a realm of higher understanding (above the intelligence of mere man)once you are filled with Gods spirit (which is a process) you will walk above the "sea" of humanity and when you get pulled down into it ,you are able to call out as Peter did "Lord save me" matt 14v30 (when one is born one is immediately cast into THIS WORLD (system) after a time you OVERCOME THIS WORLD.
Satan falls like lightening when the Spirit imparts understanding when this happens there is usually much violence in as much as wrestling with past knowledge that one has acquired from Satan (carnal mind).Matt 11v12 as opposed to a new understanding from the Holy Spirit, Ezekiel 36v26
Also important is the 1st few words namely The Kingdom of Heaven COMES....(whether we like it or not) to me this is a process there is a lot of "clutter" to get rid of 1st.. some would say that is the purpose of this lifetime in the worldly sense.
I believe and I have scripture that even in this world...one can walk above (in the heavens)
To Say "Satan Made me do it" is not far from the truth, according to Gen 3v13 . You answer is the verse preceding v 13
To wrap up ,Consider this... The Spirit brings life and peace John 6 vs 63 as opposed to Rom 8v6
THIS ABOVE IS MY UNDERSTANDING THOUGH
PS
There are ways to get your compensation for your pool.. don't fear a major insurance company, take them on ... That is, if you believe you are a "citizen"
Ian,
I don't know -- are you saying that Satan is the carnal mind? Because Satan is not the carnal mind, my friend. Satan feeds on the carnal minds of people.
If you read all of the replies from Rick, you'd see that Rick took the high road and the peaceful way. Rick fixed his own pool. He didn't need to argue or grapple or go to law against these people, because God gave Rick the ability to be handy when it comes to things like that. It was all a test for Rick to see that God is with him and he doesn't need to worry that when things like this creep up that God will not be there for him. I would never suggest that any brother in Christ or anyone for that matter, resort to going to law when it comes to these "little things." It's an exercise in futility. Carnal institutions like the insurance companies don't back down easily - they are beasts. Trust in the Lord and He will direct your paths. God didn't let Rick slide into carnal thinking of "taking anyone on."
Outside of those two small things, a lot of what you said makes a lot of sense and resonates with me. Thanks for sharing, Ian
Gina
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Hi again Gina and Alex,
I think that Rick has settled his claim with the insurance as Gina says. Not entirely happy but not gonna let it bother him.
On the other hand, for Alex, I think we should remember that the insurance policy is a legal contract and the company has the right and even the obligation to it's stock holders, to limit the payment of claims to those that they owe according to the "contract".
If you insure your $100,000.00 home for $70,000.00 in order to save a little on the premium and a tornado takes the whole house over to the next County, all you are going to get to pay off your bank loan is the promised $70,000.00. The claims adjuster is not a charity with "tons" of extra money laying around to dole out to needy folks who didn't buy enough protection to cover their true needs. Of course you already know this, so I'm just reminding you of that fact.
We have to read the fine print in any contract we sign and be sure that we understand what we have and what we do not have.
In my own personal experience as a small claims adjuster/agent, the company was most interested in getting the legitimate claims paid quickly and the release forms signed and filed away. When I paid for a broken auto windshield I took pains to insure that the glass was properly installed so that there would be no complaints against me or the company. That is how an agent builds a successful business.
I don't know the details of the contract in question, but I do know that there are several levels of protection available at various increasing costs.
Hope my comments may be helpful. I-bob
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Great info, iBob. Yeah, God's been very kind to me. I have never had a problem with any insurance company, so far. I've had my car stolen by someone years ago and the insurance company paid for the rest of the car note and gave me a little more so that I'd have enough to make a decent down payment on my next car. The police even called me a year later to let me know that they found my car. They found it in Mexico. The cop told me that it was stripped of everything. The only thing that hadn't been done to it was that it hadn't been burned. LOL That's what the cop told me over the phone - this was back in 1991. I had my new car and I was fine. I had a good laugh about that (because truthfully, who ever stole that car, did me a huge favor.)
Same thing when I had my car radio stolen twice. It's the way of the world. It's not the insurance company's so much as it is the way of the world and it's really all so that we will ultimately believe that God is with us and there is no temptation that has overtaken you but that which is common to man, and will not be so much that you cannot bear it. But along with the temptation, God will make a way through it so that we aren't overtaken (by emotion, sin, theft, ill-will, etc.). God is working all things are for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose. This stuff comes to pass.. It doesn't come to stay, it comes and it passes when we learn all there is to learn from the trials and sufferings.
Thanks for your input iBob. Yeah, I work with a former insurance adjuster, and he was very kind and very generous and very truthful and honest.
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Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
I believe that Satan is the carnal influence and I firmly believe Jesus is The Spiritual influence
Hi Ian,
This statement you made brought a few scriptures to mind , one of them is
( Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope )
I don’t believe God created us with inherent evil, I believe God created us spiritually weak.
The next scripture is ,
( Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. )
These are not the words of a man born with inherent evil but a man who wants to do the right thing but is unable because he is spiritually to weak to do all the good he would do if able.
I don’t think your saying Satan is our carnal mind but rather Satan influences our carnal minds away from God but this presents a problem for me because of this scripture,
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
So, why does Satan need to influence our mind when by birth our mind is already in a state of enmity against God ?
You said that Christ is the spiritual influence of our minds, so now with that scenario we are now like a receiver tuning in to both Christ and Satan but Joh 6:44 disputes that.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Now, the only way Christ can influence our mind would mean God the Father would have to actually draw the person to Christ but if God the Father draws not the person to Christ then we are still confronted with Rom 8:7
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
I’m still learning so if I’m in error please forgive me, its not intentional.
God bless.
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I'm always wondering the same thing--why do we need to have an adversary if our minds are already feeling deep hatred toward God and are prone to disobey and are in fact already disobeying and far from Him?
A weak mind doesn't want to die. It wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to live the life of glory. They weren't about to touch that tree after God told them they "might" die.
But we know that in order to be made in God's image we have to die (to self) first. But the flesh / the carnal mind never thinks this way - the thoughts of a carnal man are much lower than the thoughts of God and it thinks it loves God when it really hates God.
They think they love Him because they are doing exactly what He tells them to do; eat of all the trees in the garden and never eating of the tree of knowledge.
They were doing exactly what he said to do, too. And that's all they could see.
But they didn't really love Him. He knew that. But how do you get prideful people who live by sight and not faith, to admit that? Did their pride ever blind them?
(And their eyes were opened and they saw that they were naked ... and blind....)
Eve wasn't even touching the tree! She must have thought she was being such a good little girl.
I can see how Eve, in talking with the serpent, drew close to God with her lips, but her heart was far from Him.
She sounds like Jane Curtin in the Coneheads:
"Of.all.the.trees.we.are.eating.but.of.the.tree.in.the.
middle.God.said.do.not.eat.do.not.even.touch.it.lest.you.die."
She was bored and lonely or something. Just the same way Adam was bored and lonely before the excitement of Eve came to life.
Adam was lonely and bored out of his skull before Eve came to town.
He's like:
Wow! Flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone!
He's not:
WOW! I've finally got a friend I can talk to for a change!!!
All he saw was her body. Flesh and bone. Bone and flesh.
But he couldn't help it. He was by nature a physical / visual creature.
She was no different.
She too needed some sort of helper meet, I imagine.
I mean, before children or hardships or Satan enters the picture, there's not much a good girl can talk about with an "obedient God-fearing" carnal minded man.
Nice day, idn't it. Yep, sure is.....
:)
She was bored!
But Adam had all he ever wanted! Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. "MY flesh" "MY bone."
It comes across to me as a either a great comfort to him and/or a great source of pride to see this beautiful thing coming toward him or laying next to him after he woke up from that deep sleep, and knowing that THAT CAME FROM ME???? WOW, I am something, aren't I?
Nah, just kidding.
I bet Adam wept like a baby when he saw Eve. Like women weep when we meet our children for the first time. We're like, Oh my gosh - look at this sweet little thing!! So sweet!!! I can't believe that came out of me!? Awwww. So sweet.
I think God thought they were both really sweet.
Otherwise, I don't see why God wouldn't just reach out and "smite them." He doesn't really need Satan for that.
"God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked."
(God's like: I'm not about to kill my children myself - they're so darn cute! Look at them!! No, way, I just can't do it. I'll have to make something else to do it. )
"Let no one say when he is tempted that he is tempted by God, because God tempts no one, neither can God be tempted.)
And apparently Adam and Eve were pretty tough to crack. Eve wasn't going down so easy. She must have been very hard to outwit. Fleshly minded? Yes. Are there carnally-minded people in the world who are pretty blessed in the brains department? Sure!
So God had to make her opposition the subtlest of all field life, the slickest clown in town was the only thing that could take her down. I guess. I don't know.
:)
But I bet that selfish act of Satan's went directly to his head. I bet Satan was so proud of himself for that. Nom-nom-nom....gulp!
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Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
Hi Rick ... My Own words - I can elaborate but to start...
I believe that Satan is the carnal influence and I firmly believe Jesus is The Spiritual influence
"Heart" is ones mind (translated) i.E. heart of stone vs heart of flesh
I have many scriptures, however if I dump them and one has a carnal mind what good is that.
Satan will present the opposite of what the word presents But to the carnal mind he appears as an angel of light (he makes common sense)as opposed to the word which makes no (common sense) but is generally abrasive and against that which is taught by men...
Satan does fall like lightening from heaven - this is, understanding where heaven is... firstly my word tells me heaven is within us so heaven is not "up there" luk 17v21 heaven to me is a realm of higher understanding (above the intelligence of mere man)once you are filled with Gods spirit (which is a process) you will walk above the "sea" of humanity and when you get pulled down into it ,you are able to call out as Peter did "Lord save me" matt 14v30 (when one is born one is immediately cast into THIS WORLD (system) after a time you OVERCOME THIS WORLD.
Satan falls like lightening when the Spirit imparts understanding when this happens there is usually much violence in as much as wrestling with past knowledge that one has acquired from Satan (carnal mind).Matt 11v12 as opposed to a new understanding from the Holy Spirit, Ezekiel 36v26
Also important is the 1st few words namely The Kingdom of Heaven COMES....(whether we like it or not) to me this is a process there is a lot of "clutter" to get rid of 1st.. some would say that is the purpose of this lifetime in the worldly sense.
I believe and I have scripture that even in this world...one can walk above (in the heavens)
To Say "Satan Made me do it" is not far from the truth, according to Gen 3v13 . You answer is the verse preceding v 13
To wrap up ,Consider this... The Spirit brings life and peace John 6 vs 63 as opposed to Rom 8v6
THIS ABOVE IS MY UNDERSTANDING THOUGH
PS
There are ways to get your compensation for your pool.. don't fear a major insurance company, take them on ... That is, if you believe you are a "citizen"
Ian,
I don't know -- are you saying that Satan is the carnal mind? Because Satan is not the carnal mind, my friend. Satan feeds on the carnal minds of people.
Gina
Hey,yes It should have read "who influences the carnal mind"that mind,being "influenceable" if there is such a word - being weak
I understand that to be "carnally minded" is Death to be "Christ Minded" is Life and peace If one is carnally minded they think and act like their Father who is the Devil and vice versa concerning the mind of Christ... He the Devil is the prince of the air, we overcome him by being given understanding and implementing the (way & truth & life) of the Word.
If one has not been regenerated one walks according to the law, which leads/brings one to "death" (this is the outward understanding of the word and is necessary ) there is a huge difference when one is not thinking according to the shadow...but has access to the inner place/room. (an understanding of the cross)
I think if one thinks like Satan (re the scriptures )one can safely say that person has a corrupt, perverse mind, not the mind of Christ but the mind of Satan/death/carnality and is carnal.(you know them that are ,by their fruits)It "seems" we are born into this chaotic state (we have to experience death) or we "die to it" that is the way of the world.(chaos)
hence our "old or dead/dying" mind has to be replaced with a new one and God says he will do this.
So to answer your statement above, If one has a carnal mind...
one does think like Satan and... Satan is in control...
if the carnal mind is "dust" then yes, Satan feeds on the carnal mind
re the swimming pool... Paul got arrested many times before he received knowledge/understanding that he was in fact a "Roman" citizen (this changed things) what I meant is that "we often get done over" , before we too get understanding/revelation of our rightful place. There may be many "loopholes" in this world,
but our God is extremely clever... :D
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I'm always wondering the same thing--why do we need to have an adversary if our minds are already feeling deep hatred toward God and are prone to disobey and are in fact already disobeying and far from Him?
Hi Gina,
As Ray correctly pointed out, a man does not need any help to lust after a woman. God doesn't have to force him to do it. There is no God (or devil) on the shoulder saying "Do it! DO IT! LUST AFTER THAT WOMAN." As you say, we are already disobeying, even without the adversary. We volunteer to sin.
I don't think of Satan as someone who is trying to convince me to sin or hate the things of God (don't need any help for that.) I think of him as one who tries to deceive us, the believers. When I think of Satan the deceiver, I don't think of primitive tribes in Africa who have no knowledge of God. I think of Christianity, and the Church. "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness" (2 Cor 11:14-15). There are people in the Church who sincerely believe they are following the truth, but are being deceived. There are even some teachers of universal reconciliation who are ministers of Satan. It can be very enticing--even for some of us here--to go down certain paths.
In his study Does All Mean All? Ray says there is no Greek word that MUST mean absolutely all and everyone. So theologians can argue that "all will be saved" does not necessarily mean ALL will be saved. Ray asks "Why isn't there a Greek word that simply means ALL? Well if there were such a word, how then would Satan deceive the whole world (Rev. 12:9)?" So things like "for ever and ever" in the King James Version...that is the work of the adversary deceiving the world. We don't need his help to sin; it's when we think we are being good and following the truth that he is at his most dangerous, and so we must "be alert and of sober mind" (1 Pet. 5:8 ).
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Hi again Gina and Alex,
I think that Rick has settled his claim with the insurance as Gina says. Not entirely happy but not gonna let it bother him.
On the other hand, for Alex, I think we should remember that the insurance policy is a legal contract and the company has the right and even the obligation to it's stock holders, to limit the payment of claims to those that they owe according to the "contract".
If you insure your $100,000.00 home for $70,000.00 in order to save a little on the premium and a tornado takes the whole house over to the next County, all you are going to get to pay off your bank loan is the promised $70,000.00. The claims adjuster is not a charity with "tons" of extra money laying around to dole out to needy folks who didn't buy enough protection to cover their true needs. Of course you already know this, so I'm just reminding you of that fact.
We have to read the fine print in any contract we sign and be sure that we understand what we have and what we do not have.
In my own personal experience as a small claims adjuster/agent, the company was most interested in getting the legitimate claims paid quickly and the release forms signed and filed away. When I paid for a broken auto windshield I took pains to insure that the glass was properly installed so that there would be no complaints against me or the company. That is how an agent builds a successful business.
I don't know the details of the contract in question, but I do know that there are several levels of protection available at various increasing costs.
Hope my comments may be helpful. I-bob
Hi Bob,
You addressed me in your post but I'm not sure why. I don't recall mentioning any sort of contract I was involved in? I believe you were addressing this to Rick correct? I could be wrong...
Kindly,
Alex
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Hi Alex,
You are correct, It was Ian I was referring to and got mixed up.
Ian said at the end of one of his messages. quote
"PS
There are ways to get your compensation for your pool.. don't fear a major insurance company, take them on ... That is, if you believe you are a "citizen"
[/quote]
Since it was a long message I confused Ian with Alex.
Sincere apologies to you both. 8)
Indiana bob
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Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour,
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven.
According to statistics there are six billion people on earth today and are all six billion people being effected by one spirit being? Are there enough hours in the day for one spirit being to deceive an entire world full of people ?
Well, according to Luk 18:8 there must be however no one scripture is of its own interpretation and I was not able to find another match for Luk 18:8 at this time but I shall keep searching.
Luk 18:8 I say unto you, that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
But still I’m left with this though, is Satan a real literal spirit being or is Satan a system, what I mean by a system is I’m remembering back sometime ago while mowing my lawn and hit a foreign object that had been ejected through my above ground pool wall and the pool liner and lost all the water from the hole made by this object.
After calling the insurance company I discovered I was not covered from the damage caused by my lawn mower and me however I was told if someone rammed a knife through the pool wall and liner I would of been covered meaning they will cover vandalism, a hole is a hole to me but they used it as a loophole to not pay out.
This type of business can cause one to be disingenuous rather than being honest. There is a hidden system in this world that hurt honest people. This world encourages one to be dishonest. :(
I believe that Satan is the carnal influence and I firmly believe Jesus is The Spiritual influence
Hi Ian,
This statement you made brought a few scriptures to mind , one of them is
( Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope )
I don’t believe God created us with inherent evil, I believe God created us spiritually weak.
The next scripture is ,
( Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. )
These are not the words of a man born with inherent evil but a man who wants to do the right thing but is unable because he is spiritually to weak to do all the good he would do if able.
I don’t think your saying Satan is our carnal mind but rather Satan influences our carnal minds away from God but this presents a problem for me because of this scripture,
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
So, why does Satan need to influence our mind when by birth our mind is already in a state of enmity against God ?
You said that Christ is the spiritual influence of our minds, so now with that scenario we are now like a receiver tuning in to both Christ and Satan but Joh 6:44 disputes that.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Now, the only way Christ can influence our mind would mean God the Father would have to actually draw the person to Christ but if God the Father draws not the person to Christ then we are still confronted with Rom 8:7
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
I’m still learning so if I’m in error please forgive me, its not intentional.
God bless.
Yeah - the "influence" is pertaining to the word (only) the truth of the word sets one free from this influence (a new understanding)...a weak mind (carnal)is able to be conned . which as you point out is/was necessary
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Hi Alex,
You are correct, It was Ian I was referring to and got mixed up.
Ian said at the end of one of his messages. quote
"PS
There are ways to get your compensation for your pool.. don't fear a major insurance company, take them on ... That is, if you believe you are a "citizen"
Since it was a long message I confused Ian with Alex.
Sincere apologies to you both. 8)
Indiana bob
[/quote]
just saying the road i travelled there are/have been many snares, He delivers ...
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Hi Rick
You say:"Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit"
There is no such a thing as a "literal spirit."That is:A spirit that can be seen with our own PHYSICAL EYES.No such a thing,friend.Spirit is INVISIBLE.So your question cannot be answered as it is contradictory.
1 Peter 5:8,Luke 8:44 and Luke 18:8 Do NOT suggest that "Satan is a literal spirit as you claim."I am not too sure how you came to that conclusion.Maybe we should look at the verses.
Luke 18:8 NIV"I tell you,he will see that they get justice,and quickly.However,when the Son of Man come,will he find faith on the earth?"
Comment:where does it suggest satan is a literal spirit?
Luke 8:44 NIV"She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak,and immediately her bleeding stopped."
Comment:Again,where does it suggest satan is a literal spirit?
1 Peter 5:8 NIV"Be self-controlled and alert.Your enemy the devil prowls around LIKE(remember this word) a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
Comment:Again,i don't know what in this verse gave you the idea that satan is a "real literal spirit."The verse says "...the devil prowls around LIKE a roaring lion..."He is not a roaring lion,but rather he prowls around "LIKE" one.It's a figure of speech:simile!
Here is the same verse(1Peter 5:8) you quoted from a different version.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
Comment:Notice this verse says "...,AS a roaring lion,walketh about..."This is a metarphor.He is not a roaring lion,but he "walketh about,AS a roaring lion."
I'd suggest you read "The Lake of Fire - Part 1."
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You say:"Is Satan a real literal spirit or is Satan a figurative type of figure ? According to 1Pe 5:8 and Luk 8:44 and Luk 18:8 Satan is a literal spirit"
There is no such a thing as a "literal spirit."That is:A spirit that can be seen with our own PHYSICAL EYES.No such a thing,friend.Spirit is INVISIBLE.So your question cannot be answered as it is contradictory.
Hi Nelson,
What my meaning was in that statement was simply when I used ( literal ) was real as in real sprit being, can I use that word being or should I just say spirit ?
Thanks for your suggestion that I should read the lake of fire part 1, I read that back in September and when I get a chance Nelson, Im sure I will revisit the entire series again.
Have a good day Nelson and God bless.
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Why is it so farfetched to believe that satan has a form? Jesus was raised with a spiritual BODY. To my knowledge a body implies some kind of form. Paul tells us there are terrestrial and celestial bodies. The word used for invisible in the new testatement in no way implies something that can never be seen but rather something that is currently unseen.
ἀόρατος
aoratos
ah-or'-at-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3707; invisible: - invisible (thing).
In Greek, the word is oratos (to gaze upon, SEE G3707) with the negative "not" before the word depicted by an "a"
So its "A-oratos" which literally means 'NOT gazed upon.'
Spirit has not been gazed upon but that doesn't mean that it will NEVER be gazed upon or that other spirit beings cannot "see" each other.
When Satan PRESENTED himself before God to bring evil upon Job, was God talking into the nether to some invisible thing which cannot be seen or did Satan have a form which is visible to God and the spirit beings?
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
If satan and these spiritual beings don't have any form then how exactly did they 'present' themselves BEFORE the Lord?
Spirit may not be MATERIALISTIC but perhaps it has a form which currently in our state we are incapable of observing unless it takes on a physical manifestation as we see done in the old testatement?
Food for thought.
God bless,
Alex