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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: dodrill on March 22, 2013, 08:51:25 PM
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Just a thought
Why did the serpent have permission to tempt/ deceive Eve/ women first?
What is significant in a feminine agenda that can overlook physical power and see replicated love?
Yes - like female birds - we might need that shinny object for the nest or was it always vanity?
Just a thought
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Good question there Hayley. Found this from Ray so might help
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html)
Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was God Who placed it right in the middle of the garden to catch Eve’s eye. It was God Who made the tree particularly attractive and desirable. It was God who placed in the humans the desires and passions that would CAUSE them to partake of the forbidden fruit. It was God who placed Satan the serpent in the garden to tempt Eve and fill her head with the glories of enlightenment. It was God Who had ALREADY made preparation for their salvation through the slain Lamb of God.
Only ignorant and foolish theologians would ever charge God of being ignorant of the conduct and behavior of His own creation. It was not the temptation or deception entering INTO Eve that caused her to sin and bring separation from her Creator and God. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."
My experience of women thinks they like shiny objects and of course us men are perfect - your in trouble now Rhys ???
Being serious - It was God's doing to use the women.
Anyway before I get into trouble I better go.
Rhys ;)
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Sorry Hayley. I shouldn't of entered this topic. I don't really know what I'm talking about. It was in off topics when I replied hence my silliness.
From the same paper:
It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN -- they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the "image of God;" and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount DIVINE REQUISITE:
"And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL..." (Gen. 3:22).
Knowing "good and evil" is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly "know" both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the "TREE of the knowledge of good and evil," which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this "knowledge." NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
I'm not sure why it matters if Eve was first or Adam, they both sinned and always would of. And now in that verse above we have God having a go at the man. Well maybe life is unfair for being a women but if that's the case then it's unfair for being a man as well. I can think of plenty of women that God doesn't have a go at but He has a go at me. Unfair God why don't you have a go at the women. It's all nonsense and God has His way of doing things and I don't question it but just accept it. Throw me on the rubbish pile first if you want Lord - I don't care, God can do what He wants and He will do.
I don't think I fully understand what you are asking here Hayley but then I'm just a stupid man.
I think you answered your own question about overpopulation and unwanted births. To me such a thing does not exist. If it does then it looks like God isn't in control after all.
I can remove my posts if you want or the mods can if I'm on the wrong track.
Just trying to add my bit which I know isn't much. Hopefully others will have far better responses than my silly comments.
I'm not a women hater so please don't anyone think that way.
Bless you Hayley
Rhys
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Good question there Hayley. Found this from Ray so might help
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html)
. It was what was already in her that caused her to sin. Proof:
"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies" (Mat. 15:19).
Notice it: "And when the woman saw [in her heart] that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eye [in her heart], and a tree to be desired [in her heart] to make one wise [an idol of the heart], she took [’For out of the heart proceed ... thefts...’] of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (Gen. 3:6).
Did you notice that last phrase "...and did eat"? It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."
The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
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Why we are facing overpopulation and unwanted births?
Hayley,
Who says we are facing overpopulation?
Nonsense. That's equivalent to Ray's paper discussing one of the great current day theologian stating population shouldn't live in certain parts of the world because of disasters. Silly.
And who said they were unwanted births?
There is no such thing as an "unwanted birth", unless perhaps it's "unwanted" from a human perspective but from God's perspective every birth is planned therefore wanted.
Don't listen to the "world", man's wisdom gets one nowhere.
and do we still eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad daily?
Living life IS eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, daily. How else are we to die daily to self?
Although I do know a few who believe they have "been washed in the blood" and no longer sin because they have said the 10 second prayer, given their life to Christ, and "walked the aisle". Course, they're the same ones who'll glutton the Sunday fried chicken legs and mashed taters like it's their last meal, but that's another story. ;D
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The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
....Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
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Hi hayley,
1Tim 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
We know that Adam was created first and God was with Him for a time period and Ray indicated it could have been quite some time before God made Eve. It might be that Adam had developed a closer relationship with God, had time to develop (been given) more faith.
So on that day when Satan came with the intent to draw them into sin, of course he would have picked the one most likely to succumb to his influence. Satan was cunning and crafty and did what he had to do. All in God's plan.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Over 7 BILLION humans on this planet. Drought, famine, shortage of clean drinking water, destroying rain forest, heavy logging, strip mining, drilling on land and at sea. Here are just a few things that has to be done in order for our non over populated planet with our 7 billion people just to survive. Not to mention the cause and effect of these things. people shouldn't live in certain parts of the world is just silly. I believe the people of Pompey would disagree. Unwanted births, nonsince really? Rape, insest, kids having babies, unprotected sex. All this is not preordain by God, I do remember Ray saying that we do make choices. No free will. That one can go against Gods Will, but never His intentions, or plan. Question: how many billions does it take until its consider over populated?
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The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
....Mother Eve and Adam were (1) NOT spiritually perfect in any way shape or form, BEFORE they actually ate of the forbidden fruit, and (2) neither did they sin and then partake of the forbidden fruit through the operation of something called "free will."
"And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD FOR FOOD… Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…lust of the FLESH…" (I John 2:15)
and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES… Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…lust of the EYES…" (I John 2:15)
and a tree to be DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE Gen. 3:6:
1.
"…the PRIDE OF LIFE" (I John 2;15)
Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit.
ALL of Eve’s evil thoughts of pride, vanity, lust, greed, disobedience, and finally thievery proceeded NOT from Eve’s supposed "free will," but rather from out of her HEART. And the only reason these sins could come out of her heart is because THEY WERE ALREADY IN THERE FROM THE BEGINNING. BEFORE Eve actually ate of the forbidden fruit, she committed every category of sin in the world. And need I remind us that we were also, ALL IN ADAM, before he ate of the tree (I Cor. 15:22). Will we deny our own eyes and the Scriptures we have just read?http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
This is in the beginning......
Eve did not sin and did not qualify her to sin before she did eat the fruit.
There is no law before in the beginning that qualifies her to sin in lusting, pride of life etc,
Eve sinned after eating the fruit, not before eating the fruit. Correct me if i'm wrong.
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The Creator makes you weak, so weakness must be experienced.
James 1 : 15 Then the evil DESIRE, when IT has conceived, gives birth to sin......
Sin, blindness and bondage, once fully experienced, brings the contrast "To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto THEM beauty for ASHES.....Isaiah 61:3
Arc
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Hi Hayley,
Destiny of Women:
Men like to have their vanity stroked. They love praise and recognition. Women want power….did I lie?
Here's what I notice: Even in her deceived, weakened state, Eve wanted to share the thing that she believed would keep her from dying, w/ Adam -- she wasn't being selfish or stingy in that regard, as far as her eyes could see -- she was doing something good for the both of them; something that God, according to Satan's lie, wasn't willing to do for them.
But Adam was not deceived. But being deceived isn't a sin, but did Adam also sin before he took and did eat? Was he, in his weakened state with blinded eyes, of "purer heart" than Eve? That's what I want to know.
Ray said:
Women hate that men take it for granted that they are far superior to women.
Not just superior but far superior to women.
(If Ray said it then it must be true and I won't let my pride or my own vanity get me all worked up over that.)
Till now it looks always like Adam was this perfect man with no sin in his heart before he ate of the fruit that Eve gave him. It looks like he was just this loving man who just went along with Eve because he loved her so much.
Since Adam wasn't deceived, then he knew it was wrong to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He was obviously blind (then their eyes were OPENED and they saw that they were naked and promptly covered themselves up, lol), but he wasn't deceived to the lies of Satan. He knew there was no power in that tree that could make them as Gods. He knew that once she ate it she would surely die.
So what sin was in Adam's weak heart before he took and ate? Because I believe sin had to be in his heart in order for him to eat. What was his in? That he worshipped Eve, or that he wanted to have his vanity stroked and receive praise? Anybody know?
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Hello beautiful people
Allow me to have a go at this too.
On a physical level we can have fun, and say that it is obvious that it had to be the woman that was deceived, since women go all gaga and melt when a guy smooth talks them, and if that guy also has a deep booming voice, well forget about it, she is a goner. If you ladies right now,
in your mind, recall the voice of Barry White and listen to it for a second or two......., well there you go! , I rest my case. Science has actually shown that especially when a woman is ovulating she goes nuts when she hears a deep booming voice. Of course, speaking from experience here,
if that man says a wrong word, that egg gets sucked back up into the ovaries mighty fast.
I can almost hear some of you ladies say: ”d... right !
All this is of course fun and games ( till someone loses an eye.......then it´s just fun you can´t see )
But can I present a spiritual aspect to all this, the way I see it? Judge for yourselves.
The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
I believe you almost answered your own question.
Could ” the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” be a spiritual symbol of the law. Judge for yourselves:
We know from Ray/ Scriptures, that
1. Eve committed EVERY CATEGORY OF SIN THERE IS IN THE WORLD, before… BEFORE she actually ate of the forbidden fruit
2. "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Gen 2:25
Now, is it good to be spiritually naked? I think not:
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18
Is it good to not even be ashamed of being naked. Me thinks, it´s even worse.
But when they did eat:
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Gen 3:7
Well there´s a start, now at least they know they are naked.
So, if ” the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is a symbol of the law,as I am suggesting, these verses may show you something:
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:13
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Rom 7:7
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Gen 2:17
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death "
Rom 7:5
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Gal 3:24
Now back to the woman.
God´ word say this :
"So God created man( the hebrew word is Adam) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
Gen. 1:27
So the physical male and the physical female is in this first Adam. All mankind is in first Adam.
But God´s Word also speaks of the last Adam:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." 1 Ko 15:45
So there is something,but certainly not everything ( "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"), about the first Adam, that is a picture/symbol of the last Adam.
With that in mind, what do you suppose these verses are talking about:
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Tim 2:13-14
No way am I gonna tell you :), because teaching is not allowed on this forum, and I totally respect that ( phew!! that was actually a struggle to say, nevertheless I just did), but like Ray said so many times: ” Pay attention to all the words”
On a personal note, I will later today write a post in the topic ” Did God forsake His Son at the last moments” that I wholeheartedly believe is a message from The Lord.....I know, I know, take a deep breath :). I believe that message not only answers why Jesus said”
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
but more importantly, it will glorify Jesus in your hearts.
Stay tuned 8)
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Eagle:
On a physical level we can have fun, and say that it is obvious that it had to be the woman that was deceived, since women go all gaga and melt when a guy smooth talks them, and if that guy also has a deep booming voice, well forget about it, she is a goner. If you ladies right now, in your mind, recall the voice of Barry White and listen to it for a second or two......., well there you go! , I rest my case. Science has actually shown that especially when a woman is ovulating she goes nuts when she hears a deep booming voice. Of course, speaking from experience here, if that man says a wrong word, that egg gets sucked back up into the ovaries mighty fast. I can almost hear some of you ladies say: ”d... right ! All this is of course fun and games ( till someone loses an eye.......then it´s just fun you can´t see )
Eagle, Did the study include hearing impaired women?
The scriptures are clear on the matter.
They were both already dying. And they knew it. That must have scared the living daylights out of both of them.
Romans 5:12: Just as sin entered the world through ONE MAN (not through one woman), and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.
Sin was in the world before Eve because there was death and decay (remember the soil -- and what it's made up of -- dead, organic material like, trees, plants, herbs, bugs, and animals)?
I don't believe Eve was the first to sin. I believe it was Adam - just as the Scriptuers say that sin entered the world through ONE MAN. (This isn't to start a war of the sexes -- I mean who cares who was first? We have to forgive others' their trespasses, otherwise God won't forgive our trespasses--it's as simple as that) Why? Because Adam was carnal/fleshly - with a carnal mind. His mind was no more on the things of God than was Eve's, and how do we know that for sure? Because he was alone and there was no helpmeet suitable for him, and it wasn't good, until Eve came along. He was all about needing a helpmeet because His spiritual Father just wasn't satisfying to him.
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. (Rom. 8:7)
Adam was fleshly and carnally minded.
Just like Adam thought he found heaven when he laid eyes on Eve (after God made Adam hunger for a helpmeet -- even though she was seriously lacking considering she came from out from carnal man) but didn't, Eve thought she found the keys to life after Satan turned her eyes toward the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And God saves all in the end and makes us all satisifed with heavenly riches. And blah, blah, blah.
My two (lacking) cents.
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Hello Shorty
The part of my post you quoted was all meant as a joke, absolutely nothing spiritual about it :), hence my expression " On a physical level we can have fun.....", albeit not funny at all.
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I really need to work on my e-sarcasm.
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I do understand all your points, but the law that i know in the beginning is this.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Gen 2:17
"Thou shalt not of it"
That is the law. The law which is available and stated from the very beginning, not the law afterwards, not the law after they sinned.
So after violating the law they did sin.
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Santgem, "for we know that the Law is Spiritual..."
If looking on a woman to lust is committing adultery in your heart, then the 'looking' and 'desiring' Eve did BEFORE she ate is transgression. Lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, pride of life.
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Santgem, "for we know that the Law is Spiritual..."
If looking on a woman to lust is committing adultery in your heart, then the 'looking' and 'desiring' Eve did BEFORE she ate is transgression. Lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, pride of life.
I know that looking on a woman to lust is committing adultery in heart and that is a lust of the eye and lust of the flesh, and pride of life thinking that you will not die.
But the answer i am looking is the scenario that was happened from the very beginning. We don't know sin unless we know the law. If you violated the law then you sinned.
I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."Rom 7:7
now, again,
"Thou shalt not eat of it" Gen 2:17
That is the law. The law which is available and came from the very beginning,the law existing from the very beginning, not the law afterwards, not the law after they sinned.
So after violating the law they did sin. Why? because the law which is existing and only law that i know from the very beginning is "Thou shalt not eat of it"
but of course the law is Spiritual........ :)
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Santgem, "for we know that the Law is Spiritual..."
If looking on a woman to lust is committing adultery in your heart, then the 'looking' and 'desiring' Eve did BEFORE she ate is transgression. Lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, pride of life.
I know that looking on a woman to lust is committing adultery in heart and that is a lust of the eye and lust of the flesh, and pride of life thinking that you will not die.
But the answer i am looking is the scenario that was happened from the very beginning. We don't know sin unless we know the law. If you violated the law then you sinned.
I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."Rom 7:7
now, again,
"Thou shalt not eat of it" Gen 2:17
That is the law. The law which is available and came from the very beginning,the law existing from the very beginning, not the law afterwards, not the law after they sinned.
So after violating the law they did sin. Why? because the law which is existing and only law that i know from the very beginning is "Thou shalt not eat of it"
but of course the law is Spiritual........ :)
Santgem, hi.
I see what you're saying. Because God didn't say, Don't look on the tree to lust after it in your heart, He simply said, Don't eat of it, that means then they didn't violate the law of sinning in their hearts/coveting since that wasn't God's command to them. He didn't tell them that they couldn't want to eat it or look on it to lust after it, only that they better not eat it. haha I totally see what you're saying now. But in retrospect we can clearly see that all the things that took place before they ate of it (looking to lust) was in their weak hearts which brought about their actions.
They were carnal. Just because they didn't know sin because they were not given any of the subsequent laws by God, doesn't mean they weren't breaking God's laws. God just simply hadn't told them about those laws yet.
See, what you're saying is: Because a baby doesn't KNOW (or hasn't been TOLD) not to grab another child's toy away from it and make it their own, that that baby did nothing wrong when it grabbed a toy away from another child and kept it for himself. It's nonsense.
Romans 5:13 To be sure, SIN WAS IN THE WORLD
B-E-F-O-R-E (before!) THE LAW WAS GIVEN, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.
They weren't charged with the lust of their hearts or with covetousness, but to be sure, sin was in the world (and their hearts) before that law was given. Wow. Never saw that till now. So did they sin w/ the sin of lust and covetousness? Yep. They sure did.
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The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
~Santgem
Not to harp on you, Santgem. I'm actually glad you're here because you brought up some great, great questions and I found new answers I never thought possible. But you asked, is there already a law that makes Eve to sin before she did eat the fruit. And the answer is in Romans 8:2: the LAW of sin and death, which Jesus came to free us from through the LAW of the Spirit. :)
God bless everyone. Just working things out. (And maybe I was a little bored. But Ray nailed it -- God saves us from boredom. Praise God! :) )
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The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
~Santgem
Not to harp on you, Santgem. I'm actually glad you're here because you brought up some great, great questions and I found new answers I never thought possible. But you asked, is there already a law that makes Eve to sin before she did eat the fruit. And the answer is in Romans 8:2: the LAW of sin and death, which Jesus came to free us from through the LAW of the Spirit. :)
God bless everyone. Just working things out. (And maybe I was a little bored. But Ray nailed it -- God saves us from boredom. Praise God! :) )
Thanks and no thanks shortly for acknowledging me..
Actually when you read Genesis;
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 1:28
God already instructing them to subdue and have dominion to all livings thing that moveth upon the earth. Meaning all upon the earth.
But, the problem is, Eve allows Satan to have a dominion over her, is that not a sin?
This verse translation from NLT is pretty good for me....
Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. Romans 5:13
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Santgem, Eve "allowed" no such thing! She was deceived and tricked! But hey, I can't make you believe the word of God.
But in saying all that you've said, you admit and agree that sin was in the world before the law and they sinned before eating the fruit. So, that's good. We're on the same page. FINALLY! But those sins WERE NOT CHARGED TO THEIR ACCOUNT because the law re coveting/lust had not yet been given.
(It's like talking to a brick wall.)
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The question is:
Is there already a law that makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
What makes eve to sin before she did eat the fruit?
Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Adam and Eve were made of carnal flesh from the beginning, like all human being are, we are too weak to resist sin, period. When Satan presented this temptation to Eve she succumbed to it and fail for it hook, line and sinker and Adam with her... as we all do.
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm ----------
THE NATURAL MIND OF MAN HATES GOD AND LOVES SIN
When the Scriptures speak of the "carnal mind" of man or "the flesh" of man, it is speaking of his spiritual condition and attitude, until God converts such a person through a spiritual process of repentance.
We have many statements which confirm the weak and sinful condition of the human heart. Here are but a few:
1. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)
2. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21)
3. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked : who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
4. "Because the carnal mind is enmity [hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7)
5. "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good no NOT ONE" (Rom.3:9-12)
6. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isaiah 64:6)
7. "For God hath concluded them all [both the Jews & Gentiles -- that's all humanity] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32)
Notice that God will need to "have mercy upon all" because "all have sinned." God made the human race, and He made them spiritually weak, and as such are not able to obey the spiritual laws of God. Eve failed her first test. God told them what they could and could not eat. Eve immediately gave in to her "lust of flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life" when Satan presented her the opportunity. This weak spiritual mind and heart of Eve did not develop over a life-time of sinning, but was with her from her beginning.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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nice
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Santgem, Eve "allowed" no such thing! She was deceived and tricked! But hey, I can't make you believe the word of God.
I know that she was deceived and tricked that is why she ate the fruit. What i mean is that it is not herself to allow the situations. Eve submitted herself to be deceived by satan, whereas God told them to subdued and to have dominion to all living things including satan.
Now satan have a dominion over them because they ate the fruit and they submitted themselves to be controlled by satan.
God told them to have a dominion to all including satan, and if ever Eve not to hear satan then she still follow God on the instruction to have a dominion to all, are you still following?
At that time when eve submitted to satan to eat the fruit will she not sin in submission to satan?
for the puzzle; :D
1. No, she did not sin before eating the fruit, no laws still violated.
2. Yes, she did sin because God instructed to have all dominion to all things but submitted
instead to satan to have dominion over her that is why she sinned.
3. None of the above
But in saying all that you've said, you admit and agree that sin was in the world before the law and they sinned before eating the fruit. So, that's good. We're on the same page. FINALLY! But those sins WERE NOT CHARGED TO THEIR ACCOUNT because the law re coveting/lust had not yet been given. Agreed :)
(It's like talking to a brick wall.)
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I love Ray. He really makes you use your head. Ray is speaking to "a minor" in that email - a babe in Christ and therefore giving him the "milk" of the word. You don't give meat to a minor -- they will choke. Meat is for the mature.
From a relative standpoint, it certainly appears as if Eve "allowed" Satan to have dominion over her.
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
. . .
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."
( http://bible-truths.com/part4.htm )
Eve did not KNOW that she was being deceived. Ray said something to effect "Oh yeah, Satan, I'm totally deceived now!" as if to acnkowledge that there is no way she could have made any other possible choice but to "ALLOW" Satan to have dominion over her. So tell me how she could have allowed Satan to have dominion over her with her weak heart that God fashioned for her and being made subject to vanity, not willingly but by reason of Him Who SUBJECT THE SAME in hope (Rom. 8:20)
See, I get a little fired up because it's so ridiculous to say on the one hand we have no free will and no free moral agency and then on the other emphatically state, Eve "allowed" this.
Since God locks all up to disobedience (Rom 11:32), tell me how she "allowed" Satan to have dominion over her? She put Satan in the garden? She made him more subtle than any beast? She caused him to put her eyes on the tree? She "allowed" all of that? Well is she God that she could have caused things to happen differently?
( bible-truths.com/email2.htm ): Mar 20, 2002 – .BUT, NO ONE EVER goes against God's "INTENTION." There is a giant difference.
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Santgem, Eve "allowed" no such thing! She was deceived and tricked! But hey, I can't make you believe the word of God.
I know that she was deceived and tricked that is why she ate the fruit. What i mean is that it is not herself to allow the situations. Eve submitted herself to be deceived by satan, whereas God told them to subdued and to have dominion to all living things including satan.
Now satan have a dominion over them because they ate the fruit and they submitted themselves to be controlled by satan.
God told them to have a dominion to all including satan, and if ever Eve not to hear satan then she still follow God on the instruction to have a dominion to all, are you still following?
At that time when eve submitted to satan to eat the fruit will she not sin in submission to satan?
for the puzzle; :D
1. No, she did not sin before eating the fruit, no laws still violated.
2. Yes, she did sin because God instructed to have all dominion to all things but submitted
instead to satan to have dominion over her that is why she sinned.
3. None of the above
But in saying all that you've said, you admit and agree that sin was in the world before the law and they sinned before eating the fruit. So, that's good. We're on the same page. FINALLY! But those sins WERE NOT CHARGED TO THEIR ACCOUNT because the law re coveting/lust had not yet been given. Agreed :)
(It's like talking to a brick wall.)
This is what i'm looking for; Thanks for pulling out Ray's view
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7232.0.html
COMMENT: No, that was NOT, "the first laws" or commandments. The first commandments of God to the man and the woman were:
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, [1] Be fruitful, and [2] multiply, and [3] replenish the earth, and [4] subdue it: and [5] have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
There are five commandments alone that came before not eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now then, one of the categories of animals that "move upon the earth" is "serpents." They were specifically COMMANDED to "have DOMINION OVER....serpents..." Eve allowed the sepent to have dominion over HER. She BROKE the commandment of God and SINNED.