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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: seminole on July 23, 2007, 06:37:19 PM
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Okay, My question that is really tearing me up. I lost a family member to a murderous person. I also have a friend that has recently suffered the lost of her beloved grandmother. She was very upset and I was too to be told something that was not comforting. I won't list any names, throw stones, etc. but the response came from a person on the forum. We were both told that our loved ones were asleep. We both read in the Bible that absent from our bodies , present with the Lord. We were told that their bodies were asleep and deteriorating in the grave. My loved one was murdered and cremated. Needless to say the body is not rotting in the grave. The body is dust. Where does that put the "sleeping". There is no body any longer. The only comfort I derive other than that the murderer is now dead is that my loved one is gone on to the next world and is in the presence of Jesus and the Father. My friend is very upset though.
Nole
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Oh, Seminole,
My heart breaks for you and your friend. How noble of you to think of your friend's feelings while you are also grieving.
I have no answers for you, but wanted to add my support. While there is quite a debate in esoteric circles about what happens after life, the Blessed Assurance is that whatever happens in whatever order, there is peace, there is love, there is God.
It is my hope that you and the ones around you find your peace as well.
Peace
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Pax, that was so kind of you. I am far from noble as many on the forum would tell you! It is a hard place to be in. My friend is gutted right now and I just want to help. you are right. God's got it in His hands however it comes down. Thanks again,
Seminole
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Hi seminole,
There is a common fear of death, because nobody wants it to end there. But the church is not of very much help, with there wishy washy heaven teachings. The truth of the matter is the spirit goes by to God that gave it.
Ecc 12:7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
I think it is in pretty safe keeping with Him :)
The scripture that you were referring to, about being absent from the body. Here is a email from Ray.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1736.0.html ----
Dear June:
The Scripture in question is II Cor. 5:8--"We are confiden, I say, and willing ['confident AND willing'--two things, not one] rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE PRESENT ['absent and be present'--two things, not one] with the Lord."
It is "AND to be present," and "IS to be present." This makes it two differnt things, not one and the same thing. Furthermore, "TO BE" is future tense not present tense as in the same instance as death, but rather something that will happen after in the future--AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.
Paul knew that he would be resurrected from the dead in the future, not that he would be present with the Lord the instant that he died (See I Cor. 15:50-54).
God be with you,
Ray
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So all who have died are waiting for God to resurrect them, that is the hope we have in Christ, because He is resurrected from the dead. Here is a passage that Paul is speaking of this hope. We know that we will be raised because Christ already has been, He was the first.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v.13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
What we are saying here is no one goes to hell or heaven. All are awaiting the resurrection, and will be saved.
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
It hard to let go of false beliefs, because they seem better than what God is working out for mankind. I believe Gods plan to be absolutely perfect, but we just can not understand it all yet.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Ray says it best...
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Mark
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What about the "permissive will" of God and the "divine will" of God? God draws us to Him and the divine plan of God is that all come to God. The permissive will says God won't make us do it. We have a choice and can turn our backs on God.
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One of the points that Ray talks about in his paper on death that one should ponder and find tremendous comfort in is that the person that dies is like they are asleep. And just like when one sleeps for hours, when they awake they are not aware of the hours that passed by. It is as if they closed their eyes and opened them and 8 hours have gone by. So in my thinking, it is almost as if time does not exist any longer for the person that dies because whether it is 100 or 1000 years until the resurrection to them it is as if they closed their eyes and opened them and the resurrection is on.
Sorry for the rambling, but I find comfort in this. Yes they are asleep, but they do not realize it.
CIY
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What about the "permissive will" of God and the "divine will" of God? God draws us to Him and the divine plan of God is that all come to God. The permissive will says God won't make us do it. We have a choice and can turn our backs on God.
He might not "make" us do it in our physical lifetime but do you really think He won't "make" someone do it in the 2nd resurrection? I don't really like the word "make" in this context. I'd rather think of it as a "caused choice". If you understand that He is the Savior of all men then of course you have to know it will happen. He will CAUSE everyone to choose....
HIM.
Mark
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Doesn't that take us all back a far way? That we have no choice, we will be made or caused to do something?
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Doesn't that take us all back a far way? That we have no choice, we will be made or caused to do something?
No.
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I like that, short and to the point!
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Hi seminole,
You will have to give me a scripture on this, "permissive will" of God and the "divine will" of God.
I can find no scripture that speak of 'permissive will.' And whatever is God's will, will be done.
I think you are letting 'free will' creep into your thinking. All is of God.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
That doesn't say except those who don't want to. He has a plan and nobody can go against it. You will have to study the Myth of Free Will to get a good understanding of this, here are the links;
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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He might not "make" us do it in our physical lifetime but do you really think He won't "make" someone do it in the 2nd resurrection? I don't really like the word "make" in this context. I'd rather think of it as a "caused choice". If you understand that He is the Savior of all men then of course you have to know it will happen. He will CAUSE everyone to choose....
HIM.
Mark
Yes... Oh Yes! "He will Cause everyone to choose..." but the difference is that we will be able to choose Him. Not only that, we will DESIRE to Choose HIM! He will not force us to choose Him. We will WANT TO CHOOSE HIM and for the first time WE WILL BE ABLE TO.
\/\/ard
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Don't we choose to do so now? We choose to study the Bible, worship God, show others the love of God and choose not to go out and murder, rape and kill. We don't choose because we are forced but choose because we truly love God.
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Hi Nole,
There is much wisdom in the previous responses, please read the articles provided, they should be a comfort to you, I wish I had had these things to contemplate 36 years ago when I was in a real turmoil.
We are the ones who grieve and suffer with the passing of a loved one, they are resting peacefully, waiting for the call of the Lord to "Arise!"
I lost two of my grandparents, a brother and a sister as well as my first girlfriend by the time I was 17 years old, it was painful enough without the Catholic hell to consider, but with the hell aspect included it was a terrible thing to think about, it made me verifiably insane for a time.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Don't we choose to do so now? We choose to study the Bible, worship God, show others the love of God and choose not to go out and murder, rape and kill. We don't choose because we are forced but choose because we truly love God.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi seminole,
You will have to give me a scripture on this, "permissive will" of God and the "divine will" of God.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Thanks Kat, I thought the same but ignored it to make another point.
Mark
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Nole
You choose what you choose now because God causes you to choose it. Whatever you just chose to do in the last 60 seconds, God caused you to choose it and do it.
This is a great anchor to cling to and remember because you are in the right hand of God and he is guiding your every step.
Believe it.
CIY
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Don't we choose to do so now? We choose to study the Bible, worship God, show others the love of God and choose not to go out and murder, rape and kill. We don't choose because we are forced but choose because we truly love God.
Yes... "We don't choose because we are forced but choose because we truly love God."
BUT... Without the Gift of being given Faith... Belief... Understanding... etc. we don't even know that God exists. And this gift is not like receiving something here on Earth, like an iPod. With the iPod... There you go... Its yours. Have Fun... The Gift of Faith, Belief, Understanding, etc. is an ongoing gift. It keeps coming everyday... Every moment. We are receiving "Our Daily Bread," daily.
At this point, we may *think* that we truly love God. (Forget about the people that have not been given to believe.) But do we? I don't think we completely understand what it is to truly love God yet. But we will...
BTW... We aren't "forced" to make any choice that we make. We make our choices because we want to. We desire to make all of our good and bad choices. Why do we desire such choices? Because we have been given weak hearts. Our desires come from our weak hearts. And God knows ALL about the state of our hearts and even created them that way. Its thru this knowledge of our hearts' desires that God knows exactly if, how and when we will make every choice we make.
\/\/ard
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I hope you can find comfort knowing that your loved one does not know they are dead. The next thing they know will be waking up and you will be there waking up with them.
Here are some scriptures that help me. I know I could never choose God without him dragging me to him. No one can and no one will. There was a time I thought I chose God and I thought I loved God, but it wasn't love or choosing him at all. It all came from my carnal mind and not in Spirit and in Truth.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain
Romans 3
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
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Romans 3
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
I actually count it as a blessing to see myself in these verses. It means God is educating me...
Mark
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Romans 3
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
I actually count it as a blessing to see myself in these verses. It means God is educating me...
Mark
*nod* guess that describes me in that verse too, haha.
Love,
Alex
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Mark i am sorry for your lost. I lost my son some time ago I know the hole we get in our heart and the aching in our soul for that loved one. It never leaves but life just kepts push us forward and after some time the pain lessen.I pray this will help you We are change for the experience. One day a few years after my son died I looked out my window and saw my other children coming home they did something funny and I started laughing. It was the first time in a long time. Take as long as you need to grieve things will seem different for a while but you will slowly move out of this and begin your life again. I pray these words help you. Compassionate friends is an oranization I went to where people who lost love ones meet and help each other. It really helped me I hope you tred them out their on the web peggy