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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: AK4 on February 20, 2012, 04:10:41 PM
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Hello everyone long time no post for me,
I know punishment isn't the exact/right word (chastisement/judgments is better but you get my drift) but i was wondering if anyone else has seen or have been shown by God (even if just little bits here and there) also what will be the punishment/chastisement of the wicked. Ray in one of his video lectures posed this question (i think his words was "has any one of you also seen the punishment of the wicked?"). I think Ray said this talking in response to John Hagees' analogy of how long eternity in hell is (if you were to take a napkin and rub the Rocky Mountains down to a flat level that is just the beginning of your eternity in hell-- Ray quoting Hagee).
Well, not going into any details, I one day several months ago asked God to show me what this "punishment/chastisement" is and it scared the hell out of me (pun intended). I was shook to my core and cried and had to go for a walk (actually this happened twice). It literally brought me to tears and the fear was overwhelming. After further pleading with God I wanted Him to show me the positive side because at first what He showed me was extremely scary but when you know the what plan God has for the human race, you start understanding the purpose and actually see the Love of God.
As I read more and more the scriptures I am being shown more, but there is one place in Isa 28 particularly verse 19 (actually reading all of chapters 28-30 gives me more insight) that really stood out when i first asked God to show me maybe some of what Ray was talking about.
The NIV version I like because its easier for me to understand compared to other translations. Here is the passage....
Isa 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. 15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge and falsehood our hiding place." 16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. 17 I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line; hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie, and water will overflow your hiding place. 18 Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the grave will not stand. When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it. 19 As often as it comes it will carry you away; morning after morning, by day and by night, it will sweep through." The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. 20 The bed is too short to stretch out on, the blanket too narrow to wrap around you. 21 The LORD will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim, he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon-- to do his work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task. 22 Now stop your mocking, or your chains will become heavier; the Lord, the LORD Almighty, has told me of the destruction decreed against the whole land. 23 Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say.
The part i put in bold and underlined.....it still shakes me to the core and it still does bring sheer terror at first thought. But anyway, witnessing this verse with many, many other verses throughout the Word, I believe God is showing me what i prayed for. For instance, (and it makes me think of those in whatever religion) those who believe in a ETERNAL/EVERLASTING hell and they may or may not be open about it (but we know they are) sickly wishing/hoping someone goes to the hell they believe in.
And so the scriptures that say stuff like treat others how you want to be treated, reap what you sow, as you judge you will be judged etc etc I begin to see how their judgment may be. No its not in their sick way of thinking but mostly in how they view eternal and how it will seem to them when God will purge such thoughts from their hearts and minds---it will seem like an eternity of suffering.
I was just wondering if any of you guys also have been shown some bits and pieces. I'm not asking for details because that may very well break our forum rules.
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps---when i think about Hagees' analogy and eternal/everlasting and how every many will judged for all their thoughts and actions and then think on scriptures like...
Mark 4:24 NIV
"Consider carefully what you hear," he continued. "With the measure you use, it will be measured to you--and even more.
its no wonder It says its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Especially since He is a just God.
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Hello AK4
Funny thing as i read your post .I was reminded of a TWILIGHT ZONE episode were this man was in Hell if you will.And Hell was that He had to have 2 or 3 girls and play casino games and never lose.And if he were to rob a bank he would always get away with it.In the end it was driving him insane because what ever he sowed was what was going to be and do FOREVER!Now of course I dont believe this is the way it will be ...but perchase it is..... it seemed to be effective...lol.
On a more realistic and serious note.As I think about your question, I think about how it is to be transformed to the image of Christ with the dying to self ,and personal grief that comes with life itself.As God is no respecter of persons,He still has the ultimate plan for each ones life and what its calling is.So I would say the only difference in the elect and the un-just in the terms of what the different levels of judgement are and how servere it will be is the the fact that The elect are given the grace to be transformed over a lifetime or a little at a time.Were the unjust get the hammer all at once.All at once will cause weeping and nashing of teeth.Just some thoughts thats all!Will have to give some more thought to the question thats for sure.
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The all at once Hello AK4
Funny thing as i read your post .I was reminded of a TWILIGHT ZONE episode were this man was in Hell if you will.And Hell was that He had to have 2 or 3 girls and play casino games and never lose.And if he were to rob a bank he would always get away with it.In the end it was driving him insane because what ever he sowed was what was going to be and do FOREVER!Now of course I dont believe this is the way it will be ...but perchase it is..... it seemed to be effective...lol.
On a more realistic and serious note.As I think about your question, I think about how it is to be transformed to the image of Christ with the dying to self ,and personal grief that comes with life itself.As God is no respecter of persons,He still has the ultimate plan for each ones life and what its calling is.So I would say the only difference in the elect and the un-just in the terms of what the different levels of judgement are and how servere it will be is the the fact that The elect are given the grace to be transformed over a lifetime or a little at a time.Were the unjust get the hammer all at once.All at once will cause weeping and nashing of teeth.Just some thoughts thats all!Will have to give some more thought to the question thats for sure.
Hello thetruth
I also wondered and questioned God and the scriptures on the all at once, actually after being shown things that i believe God was showing me i actually prayed for them that maybe it could be all at once and over with quickly but i just dont get the feeling that that will be the case when i look at it up against scriptures and what the purpose is for those who make in the first resurrection. I do believe though the all at once over an eon of chastisement (however long that may be) they will as you say get the hammer all at once.
Just the implication of being corrected from believing in just eternal is staggering, but then when coupled with their hell belief it becomes horrifying because if this is their thought and they are being corrected from this, how long will it take for them to find the hope that maybe what they truly felt and believe could be wrong? I guess like if they believe that if someone else goes to hell that person hope is lost for ever and so now if they were to end up in that same situation then basically they also will have no hope until God corrects and gives it to them--hope.
Also about that twilight zone episode it reminds of what Einstien said was the definition of insanity---do the same thing and coming up with the same result (paraphrased). If you was to apply what Einstein said to their hell belief you start to see why they say he was a genius.
In Jesus
Anthony
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I also wanted to add, probably like a lot of us feel right now, that this life at times feels like a eternity of hell, Imagine the enormity of how the wicked who believe like Hagee will/may feel when in Judgment.
It staggers me.
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And so the scriptures that say stuff like treat others how you want to be treated, reap what you sow, as you judge you will be judged etc etc I begin to see how their judgment may be. No its not in their sick way of thinking but mostly in how they view eternal and how it will seem to them when God will purge such thoughts from their hearts and minds---it will seem like an eternity of suffering.
AK4,
Where did you get this kind of teaching from? 'Seem like an eternity of suffering'? Where do we read of the Elect wishing judgment on the wicked to seem 'like an eternity of suffering'?
Too often, we ask 'how is God going to judge the wicked and unbelieving'...when the real question is, 'How will WE (God AND His Elect) judge the wicked and unbelieving?' ['Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? - 1 Cor 6:2]. Why would we do a complete 180 and go from loving thy neighbor to making our neighbor suffer for what 'seems' like an eternity?
I don't know what you saw when you prayed to God to show you this punishment, nor will I speculate. But I am curious why you didn't ask how YOU will be judging the nations and why you weren't shown what YOU will be doing. I think if you did, the answers would have been completely different.
Were the unjust get the hammer all at once. All at once will cause weeping and nashing of teeth. Just some thoughts thats all!Will have to give some more thought to the question thats for sure.
There is no fruit of the Spirit that can be learned 'all at once'. They all take much time to be taught and put into practice.
Also, weeping and gnashing of teeth is not always associated with pain. Sometimes it is a result of jealousy and guilt:
Ps 37:9-12 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. The wicked plots against the just, And gnashes at him with his teeth.
Acts 7:51-54 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”
When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
Marques
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Hello ak4
Yes,I really wasnt specific there was i. I didnt mean to come across as saying it would be a matter of hours or a 24-hour period.But the unjust will have the process come upon them all at once.And even when i say that I havent really studied as to be dogmatic about exact events .And to be honest I probably should have not posted without doing so.But oh well it only leads to having to go back and explain yourself...lol..However I do believe the Body the Christ=elect... will have a say so as how long the process takes as the Body of Christ.After all the body has to be were the Head is ....huh.And as the Celestical Supreme Court of the Universe..Dont you know you will judge the world!
Nice to have fellowship with you ak4.I am sure others will give you some MEAT on this subject!God Bless ....thetruth.
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Hello Marques
I agree ...I just wasnt making myself clear enough.I was re-posting the same time you posted to try to make my self more clear.
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Hi Anthony,
As you, I have wondered about this as well. I think about how when a person dies, they will be raised back up with the exact way of thinking and beliefs as when they died. So they will face their Maker at their resurrection with whatever knowledge they had when they died. What will people think about what is happening? Will they be in sheer terror from their own wicked full minds with ideas of hell? Some certainly should be, but not all.
I can't help but wonder if people won't create their own degree of torment from the depth of evil they have in their own imagination? I mean I wonder if to the degree that the wicked minds dwells on or imagines evil, either in what is practiced, but also in what is believed/think is to the degree a person will be fearful of what could be in store for them. But it is likewise to that degree that a person would need to be purged. Thinking of it this way, it's easy to see how some will need to be cleansed more than others.
I can think that it will be a process with each individual having to go through life experiences of which they will have to be corrected and learn right from wrong. Of course it would seems that some would need to be dealt with harsher, as I do not believe that anyone would be allowed to be violent, I could see this as part of the work of the Elect. But it would be a life of these learning experiences to unlearn wrong and learn righteousness.
But whatever it will be like I know that God has it all worked out to take care of each and everyone exactly to the most minute degree with what is needed to correct and teach righteousness to every single human being in the very best way.
Just what is my part of my thoughts when wondering about these things.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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And so the scriptures that say stuff like treat others how you want to be treated, reap what you sow, as you judge you will be judged etc etc I begin to see how their judgment may be. No its not in their sick way of thinking but mostly in how they view eternal and how it will seem to them when God will purge such thoughts from their hearts and minds---it will seem like an eternity of suffering.
AK4,
Where did you get this kind of teaching from? 'Seem like an eternity of suffering'? Where do we read of the Elect wishing judgment on the wicked to seem 'like an eternity of suffering'?
Too often, we ask 'how is God going to judge the wicked and unbelieving'...when the real question is, 'How will WE (God AND His Elect) judge the wicked and unbelieving?' ['Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? - 1 Cor 6:2]. Why would we do a complete 180 and go from loving thy neighbor to making our neighbor suffer for what 'seems' like an eternity?
I don't know what you saw when you prayed to God to show you this punishment, nor will I speculate. But I am curious why you didn't ask how YOU will be judging the nations and why you weren't shown what YOU will be doing. I think if you did, the answers would have been completely different.
Were the unjust get the hammer all at once. All at once will cause weeping and nashing of teeth. Just some thoughts thats all!Will have to give some more thought to the question thats for sure.
There is no fruit of the Spirit that can be learned 'all at once'. They all take much time to be taught and put into practice.
Also, weeping and gnashing of teeth is not always associated with pain. Sometimes it is a result of jealousy and guilt:
Ps 37:9-12 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. The wicked plots against the just, And gnashes at him with his teeth.
Acts 7:51-54 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”
When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
Marques
Like apples of gold in settings of silver.
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AK4
This is the "bits and pieces" ;) that God has shown me regarding how the wicked will be judged. Have you had an opportunity to read it? It's very comforting.
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII
GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection) in a " pond." ...
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
Keep reading: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html)
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Where did you get this kind of teaching from? 'Seem like an eternity of suffering'? Where do we read of the Elect wishing judgment on the wicked to seem 'like an eternity of suffering'?
I knew someone will take this the wrong way. Please pay attention to all my words and notice i never said what what you implied--in all due respect.
First off i never said the Elect wishing Judgment on the wicked to be eternal. Notice i said i cried and prayed that it wont be that way and that since i know the plan of God and since that it is Love it wont be that way. I only implied that it may seem like that to them the same way it may feel to some of us in this lifetime that it is an eternity away--Jesus/ coming. (IT ONLY SEEMS THAT WAY)
Too often, we ask 'how is God going to judge the wicked and unbelieving'...when the real question is, 'How will WE (God AND His Elect) judge the wicked and unbelieving?' ['Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? - 1 Cor 6:2]. Why would we do a complete 180 and go from loving thy neighbor to making our neighbor suffer for what 'seems' like an eternity?
Yes i know this but i was expounding on it the way Ray asked the question and applied it to the scriptures. I never said anything meaning "go from loving thy neighbor to making our neighbor suffer for what 'seems' like an eternity". Please pay attention to all my words.
I don't know what you saw when you prayed to God to show you this punishment, nor will I speculate. But I am curious why you didn't ask how YOU will be judging the nations and why you weren't shown what YOU will be doing. I think if you did, the answers would have been completely different.
I have i just did not put any details in here so that this thread can not be locked. Hence i said "Well, not going into any details....."
Please look deeper into what i post. I said I know what the plan of God is. I didnt mention what i have been shown by God and Ray and this forum what the Elect will be doing but i do know, And that is what makes what i prayed for, after being shown what i believe, FIT everything that I have been shown believable and scriptural.
I knew there would be some who take this the wrong way.
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Hi Anthony,
As you, I have wondered about this as well. I think about how when a person dies, they will be raised back up with the exact way of thinking and beliefs as when they died. So they will face their Maker at their resurrection with whatever knowledge they had when they died. What will people think about what is happening? Will they be in sheer terror from their own wicked full minds with ideas of hell? Some certainly should be, but not all.
I can't help but wonder if people won't create their own degree of torment from the depth of evil they have in their own imagination? I mean I wonder if to the degree that the wicked minds dwells on or imagines evil, either in what is practiced, but also in what is believed/think is to the degree a person will be fearful of what could be in store for them. But it is likewise to that degree that a person would need to be purged. Thinking of it this way, it's easy to see how some will need to be cleansed more than others.
I can think that it will be a process with each individual having to go through life experiences of which they will have to be corrected and learn right from wrong. Of course it would seems that some would need to be dealt with harsher, as I do not believe that anyone would be allowed to be violent, I could see this as part of the work of the Elect. But it would be a life of these learning experiences to unlearn wrong and learn righteousness.
But whatever it will be like I know that God has it all worked out to take care of each and everyone exactly to the most minute degree with what is needed to correct and teach righteousness to every single human being in the very best way.
Just what is my part of my thoughts when wondering about these things.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I agree. ;D Im so happy the Lord showed me the other side of the story. His plan, the Good "ending".
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AK4
This is the "bits and pieces" ;) that God has shown me regarding how the wicked will be judged. Have you had an opportunity to read it? It's very comforting.
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII
GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection) in a " pond." ...
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
Keep reading: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html)
Please read the post to Marques. Ive been with US for years and yes i know the elects purpose thanks to God. Im so glad it is not the way they (babylon) think
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Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Does God ever change?
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
It was/is God's goodness to each and everyone of us whom he is working in to show us the truth about 'eternal torture' and the rest of the teachings of the church. If God's goodness towards us have lead us to repentance will it be any different during Christ's kingdom on earth?
Where is the angst of the wicked going to come from during the judgment?
1Jn_3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
What if mortal human beings still in their sins are resurrected and stand before those who were once as they still are, but are now shining, resplendent and sinless like their Lord is? What if they are condemned by their own hearts as to how filthy they still are? What if those who have sinned the most have the most stripes to bear in their own hearts? What especially about the religious which totally misrepresented Christ and the Lord to the world?
Luk 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten[chastised] with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Personally I think most of the suffering will be mental and emotional. If it is suffering now for the wicked to sit in a church of Babylon and listen to the sermons what about when they are confronted with true purity? imo fwiw
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Where is the angst of the wicked going to come from during the judgment?
1Jn_3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Luk 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten[chastised] with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Personally I think most of the suffering will be mental and emotional.
This is what I believe too, Arion. As Ray has stated on many occasions, there is nothing worse than a guilty conscience.
René
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AK4
This is the "bits and pieces" ;) that God has shown me regarding how the wicked will be judged. Have you had an opportunity to read it? It's very comforting.
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII
GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection) in a " pond." ...
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
Keep reading: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html)
Please read the post to Marques. Ive been with US for years and yes i know the elects purpose thanks to God. Im so glad it is not the way they (babylon) think
Thanks Anthony. I'm sorry I misunderstood you. All we have to remember is,
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act as he would wish him to act shall be beaten with many [lashes]. 48 But he who did not know and did things worthy of a beating shall be beaten with few [lashes]. For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required; and of him to whom men entrust much, they will require and demand all the more.
Consider yourself sufficiently beaten. hehe Just kidding, Anthony.
We're all learning just like you. Thanks for your patience and your kind reply. :)
(And I see someone beat me to this verse.)
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Arion and Rene....
You have hit the nail on the head on this issue. I can't help but think about Paul (Saul)... so fervent in doing what he thought to be the right things (killing), etc. but when God struck him down on the Damascus road... he certainly didn't get up the same man!!! In one, bright moment of time, he SAW the truth... and with it came the change of heart that was needed. He saw himself as he truly was and didn't hesitate to tell others... "I was the WORST of sinners"... I can't help but think there came a real saddness in his heart when he thought of all the people he'd persecuted!! Now that is true repentance... that is a true vision of the heart of God. I believe when we FACE the CHRIST... we will KNOW in the blink of an eye where we were WRONG and that is where the change will come about!! Then will come our true repentance, the sorrow for all we've ever thought and done. Then... we will KNOW the good from the bad, the right from the wrong... and make the right choice from a heart that truly SEES the truth!! He's a God of LOVE and desires that we KNOW and find the pleasure in all He's created and done and planned so perfectly!! Isn't that a blessing???? Makes me so happy!!! I'm sure that the heart of Paul had to overflow with total gratitude and love for God... just in being led to SEE the truth... and it set him FREE!!! Wow!!
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Where did you get this kind of teaching from? 'Seem like an eternity of suffering'? Where do we read of the Elect wishing judgment on the wicked to seem 'like an eternity of suffering'?
I knew someone will take this the wrong way. Please pay attention to all my words and notice i never said what what you implied--in all due respect.
AK4,
I read over your first comments numerous times before answering and quoted your words 'seeming like an eternity'. I know what you said, but that doesn't change the fact that it is unscriptural. That might be the real reason why you assumed 'people would take it the wrong way'.
First off i never said the Elect wishing Judgment on the wicked to be eternal. Notice i said i cried and prayed that it wont be that way and that since i know the plan of God and since that it is Love it wont be that way. I only implied that it may seem like that to them the same way it may feel to some of us in this lifetime that it is an eternity away--Jesus/ coming. (IT ONLY SEEMS THAT WAY)
You cried and prayed it won't be 'that way' but since you know the plan of God, it won't be that way...right?
I was shook to my core and cried and had to go for a walk (actually this happened twice). It literally brought me to tears and the fear was overwhelming.
But then you say this later on:
The part i put in bold and underlined.....it still shakes me to the core and it still does bring sheer terror at first thought. But anyway, witnessing this verse with many, many other verses throughout the Word, I believe God is showing me what i prayed for.
So it 'won't be that way' (whatever way you are implying but not outright saying) but then it 'still shakes you to your core'. Which is it?
Let me be frank with you: This post reminds me of Bill Weiss and his testimony (that made him cry and pray that it won't be 'that way'). You've taken a single rhetorical question from Ray ('has any one of you also seen the punishment of the wicked?') and turned into a testimony of some kind of agonizing experience for those in judgment. And yet, seeing that you know the Elect will be doing this judging, for some strange reason you have not, or will not, picture yourself causing this agony to those in judgment. I'm sorry but that's a load of crap.
The conclusion of this matter is simple: For those of you who want to know how the wicked and unbelieving will be judged, just ask yourself one simple question. How do I want to judge and teach these people righteousness? And if you can answer that question with a clear conscience, with the Holy Scriptures as a guide, then you are more than on your way to understanding.
But if this causes you agony and makes you upset, you may need to seriously re-read this site. Because you are still holding onto some Babylon baggage that you need to get rid of.
Marques
P.S. I've made my point and will not comment further on this thread. It's not based on any article on BT but just someone's vision, that only they have seen, but he feels he is being misunderstood. How surprising...
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Hello Again
Would like to share this quote because i think its the truth:The conclusion of this matter is simple: For those of you who want to know how the wicked and unbelieving will be judged, just ask yourself one simple question. How do I want to judge and teach these people righteousness? Marques.
This is how I believe Gods Will ....will be acccomplished.
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AK4
This is the "bits and pieces" ;) that God has shown me regarding how the wicked will be judged. Have you had an opportunity to read it? It's very comforting.
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII
GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection) in a " pond." ...
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
Keep reading: http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html)
Please read the post to Marques. Ive been with US for years and yes i know the elects purpose thanks to God. Im so glad it is not the way they (babylon) think
Thanks Anthony. I'm sorry I misunderstood you. All we have to remember is,
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act as he would wish him to act shall be beaten with many [lashes]. 48 But he who did not know and did things worthy of a beating shall be beaten with few [lashes]. For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required; and of him to whom men entrust much, they will require and demand all the more.
Consider yourself sufficiently beaten. hehe Just kidding, Anthony.
We're all learning just like you. Thanks for your patience and your kind reply. :)
(And I see someone beat me to this verse.)
Thanks for the kind words also. ;)
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author=mharrell08
Where did you get this kind of teaching from? 'Seem like an eternity of suffering'? Where do we read of the Elect wishing judgment on the wicked to seem 'like an eternity of suffering'?
I knew someone will take this the wrong way. Please pay attention to all my words and notice i never said what what you implied--in all due respect.
I read over your first comments numerous times before answering and quoted your words 'seeming like an eternity'. I know what you said, but that doesn't change the fact that it is unscriptural. That might be the real reason why you assumed 'people would take it the wrong way'.
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Well i had a rebuttal and hit the wrong key and erased it all. Oh well. If you feel like i said something unscriptural, fine but i didnt. What seems like "forever" or "eternal" or "everlasting" to one may be a short time another. Read the first part of verse 19 again
You cried and prayed it won't be 'that way' but since you know the plan of God, it won't be that way...right?
It wont be eternal and all of us here know that. I thought i conveyed this in my post. FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE and the way they view their hell, in their minds, it may seem eternal or how one would say "taking forever".
So it 'won't be that way' (whatever way you are implying but not outright saying) but then it 'still shakes you to your core'. Which is it?
Yes it wont be that way and yes as Isa 28:19 says "19 ....The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror." But notice i said i prayed to God after "understanding this message" to show me the other side because when the understanding of the message that brought me sheer terror spooked me, it spooked me to a point where i wasnt thinking straight and on the final outcome for those in Judgment.
Let me be frank with you: This post reminds me of Bill Weiss and his testimony (that made him cry and pray that it won't be 'that way').
Wow i like it when people "be frank" but you dishonored me with that. I didnt just start this thread without thoroughly thinking it through and praying about it for months on end. You claim i made unscriptural claims when i did not. I said i didnt post much because i didnt want the thread to get locked because people saying "I saw this or that" in some kind of "so-called" vision. I didnt post many scriptures because i wasnt trying to "teach" or point someone into thinking a certain way. My main point of my post was about how God will purge the mind and heart of the wicked and my "focus" was about how they believe eternal/everlasting/forever and that IT MAY SEEM like eternity to them when this purging starts just like for some of us when we had to unlearn some of babylons ways, to some it may have FELT like an eternity or it SEEMED like forever when of course reality shows otherwise.
You've taken a single rhetorical question from Ray ('has any one of you also seen the punishment of the wicked?') and turned into a testimony of some kind of agonizing experience for those in judgment.
No. No i did not. Yet, even if i did, scriptures tells us that those in judgment will not be having a party. You have greatly misread my post.
And yet, seeing that you know the Elect will be doing this judging, for some strange reason you have not, or will not, picture yourself causing this agony to those in judgment. I'm sorry but that's a load of crap.
Like i said i like people being frank because i try to do it myself. I know we will be doing the judging and maybe we will be "causing agony" being that we will be priests of God and Christ teaching them the truth which they probably will agonize over in some way or another. (i guess i should put something here so i am not misunderstood ---this "agonizing" is the renewing of their mind nothing physical and distorted as you say i am portraying like Bill Wiese)
The conclusion of this matter is simple: For those of you who want to know how the wicked and unbelieving will be judged, just ask yourself one simple question. How do I want to judge and teach these people righteousness? And if you can answer that question with a clear conscience, with the Holy Scriptures as a guide, then you are more than on your way to understanding.
By misunderstanding me you assumed also that i havent meditated on this for countless hours and i dont try to make sure to "test the spirits" to the scriptures. Im sorry but you have dishonored me as if i havent learned anything since being here for over 5 years.
P.S. I've made my point and will not comment further on this thread. It's not based on any article on BT but just someone's vision, that only they have seen, but he feels he is being misunderstood. How surprising...
Ive made mine also and hopefully this thread can keep going. I addressed what needed to be said and no hard feelings. I know what i have said is based on what i learned from God, Rays articles and this forum. If need be i can back up everything i put with multiple scriptures. I never gave details on "some vision" and would not unless the Spirit moved me to therefore based on just what i put in my posts i was misunderstood and no thats not surprising.
All in Love though
Anthony
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Hi Anthony,
I'm 77 and have four loving children who will not be in the first resurrection as far as I can tell at this time.
If I am to be one of the elect and if I should be permitted to greet my son or daughter when they are resurrected (we don't know that) I can assure you that they will not even be aware that they are to be admonished or corrected.
Our first communications, for the first few hours, days or longer will be to offer reassurance and love and to put them at ease.
My first priority will be to explain what has just happened to them and why they are alive again. Then perhaps a tour around the environment or place where they are being cared for, perhaps a sip of cool water and certainly a big fatherly or brotherly hug. These are my children, the fruit of my loins and the kids whose little butts I washed when they were infants. Why in the name of all that is righteous would I begin by showing them their sins or admonishing them? What good would it do? How would it reassure them that they were in safe hands? I submit that that approach would be counter productive and not evidence of God's confident love for all of His children.
No my friend, that is not the way Lord Jesus would have us to bind up the wounds of our beloved children. Actually, as one of the elect of God and a servant of Lord Jesus, my very presence with them will put them at ease. If any emotion is felt it will be one of joy and confidence that all is well.
Kindly offered, Indiana Bob
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That's a beautiful word picture, Bob. Thank you. :)
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Hi Anthony,
I'm 77 and have four loving children who will not be in the first resurrection as far as I can tell at this time.
If I am to be one of the elect and if I should be permitted to greet my son or daughter when they are resurrected (we don't know that) I can assure you that they will not even be aware that they are to be admonished or corrected.
Our first communications, for the first few hours, days or longer will be to offer reassurance and love and to put them at ease.
My first priority will be to explain what has just happened to them and why they are alive again. Then perhaps a tour around the environment or place where they are being cared for, perhaps a sip of cool water and certainly a big fatherly or brotherly hug. These are my children, the fruit of my loins and the kids whose little butts I washed when they were infants. Why in the name of all that is righteous would I begin by showing them their sins or admonishing them? What good would it do? How would it reassure them that they were in safe hands? I submit that that approach would be counter productive and not evidence of God's confident love for all of His children.
No my friend, that is not the way Lord Jesus would have us to bind up the wounds of our beloved children. Actually, as one of the elect of God and a servant of Lord Jesus, my very presence with them will put them at ease. If any emotion is felt it will be one of joy and confidence that all is well.
Kindly offered, Indiana Bob
I second Gina. That was beautiful. Thats sounds pretty much like what I prayed for also. Not only for my kids and family but for all of Gods children. Although scripture says there will be weeping as one for their only child, there will still be joy in that also i believe.
Beautiful Bob
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Hello,
About the punishment of the wicked. I am sure in the English translation, this usage of words is a poor choice of words like Ray says, Punishment is really judgement/Chastisements, and we know that Judgement is designed to rehabilitate the person for the better.
I don’t know if this helps you but I look at the elect as my older brothers in spirit. They are Family. Younger siblings learn from their older siblings. The elect are the ones who have already evolved to a new creation- they have transformed into the Image of the Father. They have overcome all weaknesses of this world- They understand and know how to help you.
They transformed into the new creation because of God’s grace, love, patience, mercy, no revenge, and strengthen us through our weaknesses. You know the saying... The suffering we go through makes us stronger. God is hard on the elect because we have a big job to do... Help the rest of our younger brothers and sisters evolve. We are to extend the same grace, mercy, patience, love, slow to anger, no revenge, etc to our younger siblings as God has extended the same for us. We are to love our enemies. The Elect do have a big job.
The Elect possess all the qualities of the Father- They all have the spirit of God- There’s no judgments’ according to the flesh but your mind. they don’t criticize- they don't get offended. they don’t put you down by showing they love you less because of your sins, They will never love you less. They don’t act on revenge on those who hurt them back in former life. After all they overcame all weaknesses. They care about you as their own- They see you as Family. The mankind is Family that left and is now coming back- like the prodigal son story. They want you to succeed in evolving and will continue to help you, guide you till you are completely evolved.
Since at that day, they will know your mind, they will see your strengths and weaknesses. They will know you. They will probably show you how deep sins has impacted others. How your sins impacted others around you and help you learn from it and help you according to your weaknesses. You are part of them- they are part of you- You are their family. They want you to join the family. They will make sure you are helped the right way.
It is just what it is. It's family helping family. We are to help one another in love. Judge by love's standard. Help them evolve the right way. God loved us since before we were sinners, while we were sinners and will continue to love us the same as we evolve into new creation. He will continue to love us. It will never end. We are his family; the elect are our family too. they love us that much. They just wants us to evolve as much as The Father does. It is what it is… It is the older siblings’ helping the younger siblings. That is beautiful. Helping one another grow. That will take a lot of patience, and all the qualities of the Father to do so.
The Elect has to be fully qualified- Not 50 percent qualified or 99 percent qualified- they have to be 100 percent qualified in order to help the rest of mankind-There is no room for carnal error, no room for the beast to exist. After all the younger siblings do learn and look up to their older siblings’ example as they grow up in spirit and physically. The elect are our spiritual guides in helping us evolve.
On the subject of visions, I would be careful though about criticizing other people visions stories. anyone can be changed by their experiences with their visions. It's happened often in the bible, it's influenced many people and their minds like Saul, Solomon, Daniel, Peter, Paul, John, Jesus, Stephen etc, and sometimes they are so profound they change one's life for the better or worse. You get the idea. I know it is not limited to those people in the bible. People do write about their own stories because of the way it impacted their lives. It can be a beautiful thing, God may be dealing with them bit by bits like Bill Weiss.. HE could be showing him how crazy their doctrines believe in... Who knows? We don’t know what went on in their minds. God does. We don't read minds. Why should we judge? Sometimes their experiences influenced them so profound and so deep that it impacted their lives the rest of their lives. It is between them and God. I know some people take advantage of it but really it is between them and God. It's a deeply spiritual experiences. You can say... BUT... but really It is between them and God in the end.
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Thank you Revilonivek,
I could not have said it better.
God does of course admonish & correct the Sons He loves; AND IT HURTS.
And it will be as you so aptly put it, with great patience and long suffering toward them; just as it is and shall continue to be with each of us.
Change is not easy, correction is not pleasant and for some it will take longer, but we have the assurance that God shall succeed in all His desire.
Can ANYTHING be too hard for God?
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Having a person examine their own words is a good form of correction/judgment.
We're to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. If what's in the mind of an individual doesn't line up with the Truth, it's alright for someone who knows better to pick it apart, examine it, and hand it back to them and say to them, "Does this make really make sense to you? Well, does it?"
The danger is not in having a person examine themselves and their words. Just the opposite is true.
If they're seeking the truth, they'll quickly come around. And I believe that's happening right here and now.
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Hello Gina
Much wisdom in this statement:If what's in the mind of an individual doesn't line up with the Truth, it's alright for someone who knows better to pick it apart, examine it, and hand it back to them and say to them, "Does this make really make sense to you? Well, does it?"
The danger is not in having a person examine themselves and their words. Just the opposite is true.
If they're seeking the truth, they'll quickly come around. And I believe that's happening right here and now.
How true this is my friend .I remember when i first come to bt and had all that false teaching to deal with.And as truth smacked me in the face.I quickly came around!Praise God!
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Sometimes we think we're in truth, when in reality we're deluded. Only the Spirit of God can give us the ability to discern. Christendom sincerely believes they've got the truth