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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Laren on May 13, 2006, 12:37:15 PM
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Romans 9 seems clear to me that of the Jews, they were given the law, they knew a form of truth, yet most stumbled over the stone (Christ) and their hearts were hardened and cut off. Other than a remnant chosen of the jews, the rest were hardened. This was part of God's plan so that the gospel then would go to the Gentiles and we could be grafted in, but must be by faith. The process of fullness of Gentiles is what apppears to me where we are in this age. When this fullness is complete, then God will institute the plan to save or graft back in the hardened jews.
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to {God's} gracious choice.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; (these verses correlate well with those of Romans 1-3 too)
Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Now here is my question, the many called in context appears to be the jews (except the remnant chosen), so God hardened their hearts, and opened the gospel to the Gentiles. The fullness of Gentiles is now what is going on.
Where are we told that of the Gentiles, many are called and few chosen?? It doesn't seem that these verses in context are referring to Gentiles re: many called and few chosen? Now I know we have to be careful with context, but would appreciate any others thots here on "many called few chosen" for the Gentiles.
One thing that struck me is the following verses, that definitely indicate of the Gentiles, their heart can be hardened too, and be cut off. It just doesn't give us a number of how many will be cut off (of the gentiles)
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree?
thanks
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who is a jew Laren ?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
outwardly ? inwardly ?
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
parable
i find focus in the following
sea = all humanity (and out of the sea comes the)
earth = called (christians not yet chosen and faithful so to speak, out of which comes the)
heavens = chosen (must stay under and let Christ endure in them as faithful)
this way it is evident that called or chosen has a far larger meaning than natural israel, what about the israel of God.
jews only ? no way
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
jew and gentile
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
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Laren,
The fullness of the Gentiles is no more about 'a number of Gentiles', in this age, than it was about 'a number of Jews' in the last age. FULLNESS deals with a quality of maturity and not a quantity of numbers in individuals. God is now awaiting the "fullness of this age" that comes with maturity unto "the FULLNESS of the stature of the image of Christ", spoken of in Eph 4.
The verse you mention in Matt 20:16 concerning "Many are called but few are chosen" has an interesting twist to it. The Greek word for called in this verse is Kletos and it is defined as 'the appointed, or (specifically) a saint'.
eg. "many 'ARE saints' but few are 'chosen'".
When I was drafted in '72'...many were 'soldiers' but few were 'green berets'. Uncle Sam called us to be soldiers, but to be of the elite chosen...or Green Beret was up to us. It wasn't a 'draft (from without) issue'...it was a 'desire (from within) issue'.
To be a 'called out one...or, saint', is up to God but to "cleanse ourselves from our dead works", and avail ourselves willingly to His good works to become chosen is up to us. That, is what makes us an honorable vessel, as opposed to just being a common vessel in the house of God. (2Tim 2:20-21)
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Hey Lightseeker
It wasn't a 'draft (from without) issue'...it was a 'desire (from within) issue'.
but the scripture says
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
and
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
also you say
but to "cleanse ourselves from our dead works", and avail ourselves willingly to His good works to become chosen is up to us.
it's just plain unscriptural misleading false and damaging to anyone taken in by it Lightseeker
wont you repent of this error ? Christ plainly declares
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
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and so it would seem we have here
a post suggesting chosen and called has something to do with natural israel.
and a post suggesting we choose ourselves of our own will.
both of these positions are heresy and potentially a disaster to the unwary.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Mat 22:8 Then he said to his servants, "'The wedding banquet is ready, but those who were invited {these are the called} were unworthy of it.
Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel {these are the chosen} them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
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Need a little help with these scriptures if you guys/gals could. This is partly why I posted this thread.
Is the body of Christ, all mankind, (or at least the called), or is it only the chosen and faithful who as "Christ (Jesus and his chosen and faithful) will save all mankind in ages to come??
It appears his body is all mankind or the called, due to the "many members". (many called and few chosen)
(Rom 12:4) for as in one body we have many members, and all the members have not the same office,
(Rom 12:5) so we, the many, one body are in Christ, and members each one of one another.
(Rom 6:3) are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
Arent the chosen/faithful the ones baptized into his death (daily dying) (the remaining will be in LOF).
(Rom 8:14) for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
(Rom 8:29) because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 And, whom he fore-appointed, the same, he also called, and, whom he called, the same, he also declared righteous, and, whom he declared righteous, the same, he also made glorious:-
Would appreciate any thots. Thanks.
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Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
The chosen are the ones, foreknown and chose by God who eat and drink with Jesus, not in death, but His life. Jesus came not to condemn, but to save. The called are the ones who know Jesus in death and condemnation. The chosen are also witnesses, for we have His spirit in us.
We can open our eyes and look around and see this is true, right now, and so it has always been this way. What does the most, the majority teach, preach and believe? What does the few, teach, preach and believe? The chosen are faithful witnesses, for by faith from God, we no longer see Him after the flesh, but in Spirit and power. Many will say the same things, yet they constantly condemn and deny the power of Christ.
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you
(Luk 22:21) But behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.
This Spirit of truth leads us to living waters, the straight and narrow path that few travel.
The carnal mind of Judas attempted to deny and betray the plan of God. This same idealogy is going on even today. They deny that God will and can save all, they deny the soverignity of God. They have not allowed God His rightful throne, hence they cannot see, but with carnal thoughts they worship Him in vain, not knowing Him in His life.
This is the way I see it, hope it helps.
God bless,
Gary
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No such thing as free will lightseeker.
Man called Few chosen, Many Called, Christian Church - Those who know Christ and Him Crucified, The Chosen - The Elect - The Overcomers, are those who Know Christ and ARE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM. THey live in His ressurection.
I think that about covers it in lamence terms, lol.
God willing thats accurate offcourse :)
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Man called Few chosen, Many Called, Christian Church - Those who know Christ and Him Crucified, The Chosen - The Elect - The Overcomers, are those who Know Christ and ARE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM. THey live in His ressurection.
(Rom 6:3) are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
This is again what I am struggling with, few chosen, crucified with him; yet this verse says many baptized into his death. (partaking of his death).
I agree with Gary, it is Him living his life through us,. But the only way to LIFE is to partake of his cup/death.
Many are part of the body of Christ. If the Christ (Him and the body, overcomers) are to save the world in coming ages; then few chosen and many again don't click.
Would appreciate any help on these verses (see previous post of mine). thanks.
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Laren romans 6:3 in an interlinear doesn't support what you are saying there
Rom 6:3 η 2228[OR] αγνοειτε 50(5719)[ARE YE IGNORANT] οτι 3754[THAT] οσοι 3745[AS MANY AS] εβαπτισθημεν 907(5681)[WE WERE BAPTIZED] εις 1519[UNTO] χριστον 5547[CHRIST] ιησουν 2424[JESUS] εις 1519 τον 3588[UNTO] θανατον 2288[HIS] αυτου 846[DEATH] εβαπτισθημεν 907(5681)[WE WERE BAPTIZED?]
the english "as many as" is from
G3745
ὅσος
hosos
Thayer Definition:
1) as great as, as far as, how much, how many, whoever
Part of Speech: pronoun
different entirely from many in "many called" which is
G4183
πολύς / πολλός
polus / polos
Thayer Definition:
1) many, much, large
Part of Speech: adjective
you say many baptised into His death ?
no way!
i cant even get myself to willingly stay under i have to learn obedience by the things i suffer
Laren even Jesus said
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
what says other verses
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Paul's experience for our admonition
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
i am shocked really that anyone would suggest that many are called chosen and faithful.
many are called few are chosen
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
out of the mass of humanity comes the called out of the called comes the chosen who must endure to the end letting Christ remain faithful in them, presenting their bodies a living sacrifice.
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Laren romans 6:3 in an interlinear doesn't support what you are saying there
Rom 6:3 η 2228[OR] αγνοειτε 50(5719)[ARE YE IGNORANT] οτι 3754[THAT] οσοι 3745[AS MANY AS] εβαπτισθημεν 907(5681)[WE WERE BAPTIZED] εις 1519[UNTO] χριστον 5547[CHRIST] ιησουν 2424[JESUS] εις 1519 τον 3588[UNTO] θανατον 2288[HIS] αυτου 846[DEATH] εβαπτισθημεν 907(5681)[WE WERE BAPTIZED?]
the english "as many as" is from
G3745
ὅσος
hosos
Thayer Definition:
1) as great as, as far as, how much, how many, whoever
Part of Speech: pronoun
different entirely from many in "many called" which is
G4183
πολύς / πολλός
polus / polos
Thayer Definition:
1) many, much, large
Part of Speech: adjective
you say many baptised into His death ?
no way!
i cant even get myself to willingly stay under i have to learn obedience by the things i suffer
Laren even Jesus said
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
what says other verses
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Paul's experience for our admonition
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
i am shocked really that anyone would suggest that many are called chosen and faithful.
many are called few are chosen
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
out of the mass of humanity comes the called out of the called comes the chosen who must endure to the end letting Christ remain faithful in them, presenting their bodies a living sacrifice.
Thank you frank, that is helpful and makes better sense. What about the many in the body of Christ? any thots on that? thanks.
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Further down in Romans, chapter 11, we are shown the purpose of the called and chosen.
Rom 11:30
For even as you' once were stubborn toward *God, yet now were shown mercy at their *stubbornness,
Rom 11:31
thus these also are now stubborn to this *mercy of yours, that now they' also may be shown |mercy.
Rom 11:32
For *God locks up *all together intoin stubbornness, that He should be |merciful to *all.
The clv uses the word stubborn instead of unbelief, showing he is talking about believers. The Israelites were believers, albeit stubborn. Likewise in each of our lives, we were at one time stubborn. It works all in all, to show us His mercy.
God bless,
Gary
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the body of Christ again is few
my body has many members (hands eyes feet ears etc etc) but the beast has seven heads and ten horns LOL! (i know i know bad joke)
i think you mean this verse?
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
yes many members in the body of Christ not "the many"
but we can't have an interpretation of a verse that contradicts Christ
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
how many of josephs brothers ever loved Him more than their own lives
how many made it into the promised land, many? or few? joshua caleb the kids?
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Laren again i'm a little shocked that anyone would suggest there are many in the first resurrection, from Genesis to Revelation MANY ARE CALLED FEW ARE CHOSEN
how many in the ark, FEW
how many came out of sodom and gomorrah, FEW
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
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the body of Christ again is few
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
yes many members in the body of Christ not "the many"
good scriptures frank, and just because i question scripture certain scriptures doesn't mean i am saying that "many will be in the first resurrection". So please don't interpret it that way. I am just trying to understand verses that seem to contradict. thanks.
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Knowledge, from being drawn or dragged by God, put through the fire with tests, trials and tribulations is knowledge learned from experience, than just the hearing of the word. With the Spirit and this type of knowledge is what makes us true witnesses.
We can see in our own lives the different way we now see God, than before. Our own stubborness (carnal nature) prevented us from seeing the hidden manna, even though we were believers. We must press forward, yet not forget from where we were, because many of our brethren are still in that state. Yet, the day will come they too will be dragged by God, whether in this life or through the lake of fire.
I cannot see myself any better than the many called, for they are all His, also. If chosen in this world, we also shall be judged, for noone can escape the judgment of God. At times it can seem contradictory why the many called and the few chosen. It's all in Gods plan, yet it is easy to see who is carnal and who is spiritual. The difference between the worldly religious and the spiritually minded is incredible. Hence, the many called and the few chosen.
God bless,
Gary
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Need a little help with these scriptures if you guys/gals could. This is partly why I posted this thread.
Rom 8:30 And, whom he fore-appointed, the same, he also called, and, whom he called, the same, he also declared righteous, and, whom he declared righteous, the same, he also made glorious:-
Would appreciate any thots. Thanks.
Laren,
The word 'called/kaleo' in the Rom 8:30 verse deals with the call to come from darkness to Christ :
2564 kaleo: to "call" (prop. aloud, but used in a variety of applications, dir. or otherwise)
This word kaleo is in the NT over a hundred times and means something totally different than the word kletos you originally asked about in Matt. 20:16. Kletos is only in the NT 4 times:
2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
Kaleo is the call to become a believer and kletos is one who has already been called/appointed...a saint
I agree one does not have free will concerning coming to Christ. You have no more choice in being birthed into the family of God than you did being birthed into your earthly family.
JOH 1:13 Which were born (again), not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
But I also believe that after being birthed into the family of God we do have free will. But I don't get adamant about that opinion.
JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
There is still the issue of 'freedom of will' versus 'freedom of action'. As a believer I can choose (of my will) to kill some one. I can fire that gun point blank and have it "miraculously" miss the person and they run off. Did I have free will?...yes. Did I exercise my free will...yes. Was my will accomplished?...no. Whose will was?...GOD's! But how is the Judgment seat of Christ going to deal with my 'attempted/free will' action? Jesus said:
MAT 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:...
That's why I think scripture admonishes us to take every thought captive to Christ. How can a Christian do that? By his own free will...I think.
Orion,
Good post. But, might I add, that the word for chosen in your quoted Acts verse is totally different then the word kletos in Matt. 20:16
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen/procheirotoneo before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
4401 procheirotoneo: to elect in advance
The word chosen in Matt. 20:16 is the word
1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite
So it appears to me that there's two Greeks words in this thread trying to be defined with one defintion by others here.
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Lightseeker your post is full of dangerous deception and whether intentional or not i find i must correct the false doctrine
i've got nothing against you personally Lightseeker but your post contains misleading error.
first this bit confuses called and chosen
Kaleo is the call to become a believer and kletos is one who has already been called/appointed...a saint
Mat 22:14 For1063 many4183 are1526 called,2822 but1161 few3641 are chosen.1588
called is the greek kletos 2822
klētos
Thayer Definition:
1) called, invited (to a banquet)
chosen is the greek eklektos 1588
eklektos
Thayer Definition:
1) picked out, chosen
so MANY are invited FEW are chosen out
chosen out of the called
as in come out of her
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
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next this bit is no way to defend the false doctrine of free will
But I also believe that after being birthed into the family of God we do have free will. But I don't get adamant about that opinion.
JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:36 is talking about being set free from sin, not enslaved to an idol of the heart called free will!
the illusion of free will results in enslavement to sin not freedom in Christ.
free will is really the will of the beast, the man of sin sitting in the temple of God showing that he is God
2Th 2:8 And, then, shall be revealed the lawless one,—whom, the Lord Jesus, will slay with the Spirit of his mouth, and paralyse with the forthshining of his Presence:—
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then we have this
There is still the issue of 'freedom of will' versus 'freedom of action'. As a believer I can choose (of my will) to kill some one. I can fire that gun point blank and have it "miraculously" miss the person and they run off. Did I have free will?...yes. Did I exercise my free will...yes. Was my will accomplished?...no. Whose will was?...GOD's! But how is the Judgment seat of Christ going to deal with my 'attempted/free will' action? Jesus said:
in the word of manuel from fawlty towers CHE!?
then this
That's why I think scripture admonishes us to take every thought captive to Christ. How can a Christian do that? By his own free will...I think.
but the scripture says
Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
and again
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
and again
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
when Jesus the Fathers holy Christ says "not as i will" then i just want to disappear altogether
talk about FAITHFUL
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i'm not typing all this to mount an anti Lightseeker campaign but because the doctrine matters
THE DOCTRINE
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
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Lightseeker, I appreciate your opinion. Also look at the word that preceeds chosen in this verse.
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
G3144
μάρτυς
martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr�: - martyr, record, witness.
The elect or chosen, who were chosen before the foundation, by God, to eat and drink with Jesus after, notice after He rose from the dead. Now these witnesses, figuratively speaking being martyrs. Now this is the same thing we as followers of Jesus do, we die and give this self up as a martyr to God. There is no greater love one can do than to give his life for a friend. The day will come when we shall see Him as He is, for we shall be like Him. As He was in the world, so shall we.
I also agree, I do not wish to argue over words, when we are really bringing up the same point, just from another point of view. We can all gain more knowledge from others perspectives. That is why I love this forum. Just hope we can keep it in brotherly love and respect towards each other. I value others opinions, even at times can be different. This can bring other things to light that maybe I cannot see.
God bless,
Gary
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Lightseeker, I appreciate your opinion. Also look at the word that preceeds chosen in this verse.
I also agree, I do not wish to argue over words, when we are really bringing up the same point, just from another point of view. We can all gain more knowledge from others perspectives. That is why I love this forum. Just hope we can keep it in brotherly love and respect towards each other. I value others opinions, even at times can be different. This can bring other things to light that maybe I cannot see.
God bless,
Gary
Gary,
I too, hope we can keep brotherly love and respect towards each other. Your word witness speaks to me of the importance of walking the walk in love toward one another. I personally don't think anyone's theology is without flaw including mine :wink: And even though Jesus was made like unto his brethren (us) in every respect, according to Hebrews, He still laid down His will[]/b to obey the Father in the Garden. May we do the same in our time of testing.
Blessings back to you and good nite
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Good post ertsky, i too was gonna adress this but it appears you beat me to it :)
I have noticed however lightseeker ignores the scripture put before Him.
P.S. I am confused lightseeker, Jesus obeyed God in the garden? Perhaps i missed this, honostly asking for an explanation. Thank you :)
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what I've learnt recently is that the "overcomers" (elect, chosen) are those who love unconditionally (agape love) and those who forgive unconditionally, even when they crucify you...
"Father forgive them cause they don't know what they're doing"
It has NOTHING to do with what happens on the outside, but what comes from our insides and how we deal with our fellow man
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worm
what i've learned recently is that if you see false and misleading doctrine and don't say anything about it, and yet claim to love Christ, then you are a hypocrite.
and that a very important part of the definition of love is being faithful to the teaching of Christ.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
that if you care more about peoples "feelings" than Truth then you are a hypocrite.
i've learned that if you are honest and call it as God gives you eyes to see it then there are those who will be offended and hate Christ in you
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
worm i'm learning obedience by the things i suffer, how about you ?
i've learned that if you see a lie and say nothing you are a hypocrite.
this is what i hear the Lord teaching me
Eze 3:9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
f
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Learning obedienced by the things we suffer is good. But why suffer? Paul continuously stressed that his suffering, his daily death was for a very important reason, and that was the salvation of others. It was not about him, but about others. He suffered for others salvation. That is love. His life goal was to be humbled so Christ through him would reveal the gospel to others, and that people would continue to stay firm in the gospel.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 who comforteth us in all our affliction, that we may be able to comfort them that are in any affliction, through the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound unto us, even so our comfort also aboundeth through Christ.
2Co 1:6 But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which worketh in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer:
2Co 1:6 But whether we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which worketh in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer:
When Paul speaks of running the race, to me it is the race of staying true to the Gospel, but not for himself, but to see others come to maturity in Christ. This was the prize he ran for. His prize was knowing others were coming to a saving knowledge of Christ. He didnt' just preach it, he lived it.
Just as Christ suffered and died for us (and he willingly did so out of love), Paul willingly suffered and died daily for the salvation of others.
He lived his life for others. He became all things to all men to advance the gospel.
For me, I see that I have suffered immensely in the last three years, but that suffering is still about me and God, I am always thinking about how much closer I am to him, and how he has revealed himself to me through suffering. But I havent' gotten to the point of others salvation and growth and being more important than my own. Still more beast to be kicked off the throne.
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Just thot a few other great scriptures.
2Co 4:10 always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
God bless
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hmmmm
He lived his life for others. He became all things to all men to advance the gospel.
and yet we read (Paul was a whole counsel man of God)(sum of the Word not some of the Word)
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
try and love everybody but don't be blind some kinda people try to mess with your mind
what I've learnt recently is that the "overcomers" (elect, chosen) are those who love unconditionally (agape love) and those who forgive unconditionally
define love and be sure to include these verses
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
define love unconditionally and be sure to include the following
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
this is what i hear
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
definition above vague allusion
doctrine above personalities
simplicity openess and godly sincerity
honesty transparency and
NO GUILE, NO DUPLICATE
2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
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lilitalienboi16
P.S. I am confused lightseeker, Jesus obeyed God in the garden? Perhaps i missed this, honostly asking for an explanation. Thank you
You're absolutely right, Jesus obeyed in the Garden by laying down His will and obeying the Father's will (Luke 22:42). To me that's the perfect definition of what "Free will" means personally. It's laying my life down to take up 'aonios' life which will allow me to overcome the last enemy which is death physically in this age (1Co 15:26).
Worm,
what I've learnt recently is that the "overcomers" (elect, chosen) are those who love unconditionally (agape love) and those who forgive unconditionally, even when they crucify you...
Loved your imput. Our Lord came to bring grace and truth. Truth without love is too hard and love without truth is too soft. To speak the truth in love takes balance and maturity.
Laren,
Learning obedienced by the things we suffer is good. But why suffer? Paul continuously stressed that his suffering, his daily death was for a very important reason, and that was the salvation of others. It was not about him, but about others. He suffered for others salvation. That is love.
While all you say above is true...it's not the whole truth. Paul suffered also that he might win Christ and overcome physical death...which he failed to due by going back to the law (Acts 21:20-23).
PHI 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended:
How interesting that Paul is still suffering and trying to win Christ in verse 8. And what comes with that winning? According to verse 10 it was so he might know the ressurection. And he isn't talking about the resurrection where all the graves will be opened in the future as in verse 11. The Greek word for resurrection in verse 10, is different than verse 11. Paul was hoping and striving to overcome the last enemy, of physical death, in this life.
Question: What is the difference between immortality and eternal life?
ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal/aonios life;
Compare what I've just posted with your scriptures in 2Co 4:10-12.
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Amen Ertsky, the sum of his word is truth. Love never compromises Godliness.
It seems to me that your mission at this time in your walk is to expose false doctrine, and that is good; but I hope in so doing you don't throw every babe in Christ over to satan for their destruction. Babes must grow into maturity, and if God has chosen that babe to move on, then your and mine daily death, our suffering is for their salvation. The gospel is simple, God has conciled the world to him, now be conciled to him. Paul died daily for this, he suffered immensely, and his desire was to preach this to the point of death. Anguish, crying, was his heart for fellow believers. He desperately wanted them to move onto maturity. For me, i have realized lately that my suffering was and is too self centered, thanking God for it for my salvation, rather than the salvation of others. Laying down my life for others, now to me that is the Gospel, and that is Love. I'm sure not saying it involves compromising godliness, and doesn't involve rebuke. But it also involves comforting, praying, sharing in blessings and trials. taking each others burdens on together.
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Lightseeker, you saying Christ obeyed His Father in the Garden seems like alot of your own doctrin. Unless you show me scripture instead of tell me what you think, then all that is is another doctrin of man. Just like your free will belief. Gods words are alot more powerfull then man. Does anyone else know about this "Christ obeyed His father in the garden by laying down His life" reasoning of thinking? Does it have any scriptural support?
P.S. There is no scripture that supports free will. (Holding on to the traditions and doctrin of men)
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Paul suffered also that he might win Christ and overcome physical death...which he failed to due by going back to the law (Acts 21:20-23).
LIGHTSEEKER!! :shock:
what kind of carnal pseudo spiritual crack are you smoking??
i'd like to refute that rubbish you typed but i'm still in shock that anyone could be that blind!!!
next you'll be quoting the serpent and saying "you shall not surely die"
sometimes i just have to marvel at the foolishness of those professing wisdom :roll:
can someone else please refute Lightseeker i'm too overwhelmed by the depth of cluelessness in that quote :shock:
f
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How interesting that Paul is still suffering and trying to win Christ in verse 8. And what comes with that winning? According to verse 10 it was so he might know the ressurection. And he isn't talking about the resurrection where all the graves will be opened in the future as in verse 11. The Greek word for resurrection in verse 10, is different than verse 11. Paul was hoping and striving to overcome the last enemy, of physical death, in this life.
lightseeker
first resurrection, second death please look them up
and as for your other quote
Paul suffered also that he might win Christ and overcome physical death...which he failed to due by going back to the law (Acts 21:20-23).
how you put those acts 21 verses in there i'll probably never understand
if Paul ever went back under the law i'll circumcise myself with a blunt rock
read it lightseeker, just one of many many many passages that contradict the impossible to describe wrongness of your post
Gal 5:11 But I, brothers, if I proclaim circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the offense of the Cross has passed away.
Gal 5:12 O that the ones causing you to doubt will sever themselves.
Gal 5:13 For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
f
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I like how the Rotherhams reads in the following verses.
Phi 3:8 Yea, doubtless! and I account all things to be, loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for the sake of whom, the loss, of all things, have I suffered, and do account them refuse, in order that, Christ, I may win,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him—not having a righteousness of my own, that which is by law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is, of God, upon my faith,—
Phi 3:10 To get to know him, and the power of his resurrection and fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death,—
Phi 3:11 If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection, which is from among the dead:
Phi 3:12 Not that I have, already, received, or have, already, reached perfection, but I am pressing on—if I may even lay hold of that for which I have also been laid hold of by Christ Jesus:—
Phi 3:13 Brethren! I, as to myself, reckon that I have, not yet, laid hold; one thing, however,—the things behind, forgetting, and, unto the things before, eagerly reaching out,
Phi 3:14 With the goal in view, I press on for the prize of the upward calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Notice in verse 11 it reads "earlier resurrection"
It looks like at the time of his writing to the Phillipians, Paul was not sure yet of his election since "he that endures to the end shall be saved"
In 2Tim which is considered the last book Paul wrote he says this:
2Ti 4:6 For, I, already, am being poured out as a drink-offering, and, the season of my release, is at hand,—
2Ti 4:7 The noble contest, have I contested, the race, have I finished, the faith, have I kept:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth, lieth by for me—the crown, of righteousness, which the Lord will render unto me in that, day,—The righteous judge,—Ye, not alone unto me, but unto all them also who have loved his forthshining.
Looks like he had assurance that since he finished his race well that he finally had assurance of his election.
Am I on the right track here?
Love in Christ,
Andy
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God bless you Andy :D
not only is your train on the right track it would appear you are running right on schedule :lol:
your post has caused the spiritual apoplexy brought on by lightseekers trainwreck theology to return to calm relaxed contemplation of the awesome plan of God.
f
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Lightseeker, the verses you quoted from Acts 21:20-23, I think you need to reread them again and keep going through the rest of the chapter. You will see that Paul was persecuted by the jews, because he was telling them to forsake the law of moses.
At that time there were many believers who believed in Jesus, but were still zealous for the law of Moses. Paul was teaching that the law of Moses was fullfilled and we are no longer under the law. And even today, the majority of christians still believe we are under the law.
God bless,
Gary
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Lightseeker, you saying Christ obeyed His Father in the Garden seems like alot of your own doctrin. Unless you show me scripture instead of tell me what you think, then all that is is another doctrin of man. Just like your free will belief. Gods words are alot more powerfull then man. Does anyone else know about this "Christ obeyed His father in the garden by laying down His life" reasoning of thinking? Does it have any scriptural support?
P.S. There is no scripture that supports free will. (Holding on to the traditions and doctrin of men)
LUK 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
MAT 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?
Like I said earlier, there may be a difference of opinion as to what 'free will' is. Jesus' soul (mind, will, emotions) was sorrowful unto death in the garden in its struggle with going to the cross of death. But scripture indicates to me that Jesus chose to obey the Father's will. His soul was in such a struggle that His physical body broke down and bled under the emotional stress. Psychology affects biology and soul affects body.
MAT 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
What's your definition of free will?
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Lightseeker, you saying Christ obeyed His Father in the Garden seems like alot of your own doctrin. Unless you show me scripture instead of tell me what you think, then all that is is another doctrin of man. Just like your free will belief. Gods words are alot more powerfull then man. Does anyone else know about this "Christ obeyed His father in the garden by laying down His life" reasoning of thinking? Does it have any scriptural support?
P.S. There is no scripture that supports free will. (Holding on to the traditions and doctrin of men)
LUK 22:42 "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
MAT 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?
Like I said earlier, there may be a difference of opinion as to what 'free will' is. Jesus' soul (mind, will, emotions) was sorrowful unto death in the garden in its struggle with going to the cross of death. But scripture indicates to me that Jesus chose to obey the Father's will. His soul was in such a struggle that His physical body broke down and bled under the emotional stress. Psychology affects biology and soul affects body.
MAT 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
What's your definition of free will?
i found this preety good: from email section
Dear Ralph:
I have answered this question dozens and dozens and dozens of times. You need to read my paper on Free Will. It is all answered thre is GREAT detail. Choices have absolutely NOTHING to do with free will. We alol have a "will." We all make billions of "choices" in our lives. Not ONE OF US HAS A 'FREE' will; and not one of us can made a "FREE" choice. You have to first understand the meaning of the terms. The beginning of part A of my paper explains this in very great and simple detail. Of course we have a will and of course we can make choices, but neither is "free"--our will and our choices are CAUSED by many things over which we have absolutely no control whatsoever. God is that ultimate controlling Force. You must read and believe the Scriptures. I give dozens and dozens and dozens of Scriptures proving that we cannot make an UNCAUSED choice, and whatever it is that CAUSES our choices is in ontrol, NOT US. "For it is GOD [not us, GOD] which works in us BOTH to will and to do of HIS good pleasure" (Eph. 2:13). We MUST believe the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
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Ray,
Thanks Euty, I would agree totally with that E-mail, in as far as it goes in the understanding of that scripture. But I wouldn't break fellowship with someone who still thought 'their choice' and 'will' wasn't free because they didn't understand it as such. So I truely thank you for offering teaching over judgment.
PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
But what if I made a choice which was the result of the 'god of this world', whose will isn't going to be for God's good pleasure as Phi 2:13 says. Do lying and evil works bring good pleasure to your Father in heaven? That's not my view of my heavenly Father. That view lines up with churchianitie's definitions of His good pleasure being torture in a eternal hell.
I'm wondering what Jesus meant when He said the pharisees were listening to another Father/god of this world's voice? And that god's will wasn't doing The Fathers GOOD PLEASURE. In other words 'their will' was within the Father's will, but not His good acceptable and perfect will...but only His acceptable will? Instead it was accomplishing the Devil's BAD WORKS and his PLEASURE in the Pharisees?
JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Thoughts Ray?
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Ray,
Thanks Euty, I would agree totally with that E-mail, in as far as it goes in the understanding of that scripture. But I wouldn't break fellowship with someone who still thought 'their choice' and 'will' wasn't free because they didn't understand it as such. So I truely thank you for offering teaching over judgment.
PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
But what if I made a choice which was the result of the 'god of this world', whose will isn't going to be for God's good pleasure as Phi 2:13 says. Do lying and evil works bring good pleasure to your Father in heaven? That's not my view of my heavenly Father. That view lines up with churchianitie's definitions of His good pleasure being torture in a eternal hell.
I'm wondering what Jesus meant when He said the pharisees were listening to another Father/god of this world's voice? And that god's will wasn't doing The Fathers GOOD PLEASURE. In other words 'their will' was within the Father's will, but not His good acceptable and perfect will...but only His acceptable will? Instead it was accomplishing the Devil's BAD WORKS and his PLEASURE in the Pharisees?
JOH 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Thoughts Ray?
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Dee, I had previously asked you if you had read any of Ray's papers, Satan was created for this very purpose.
Eutychus' name is actually Chuck, he pasted a portion of one of Ray's e-mail responses.
Please let us know your feelings on the link I posted for you.
Thanks,
Joe
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Eutychus' name is actually Chuck,
(http://bestsmileys.com/doh/2.gif)
(http://bestsmileys.com/lol/3.gif)
the providence of Almighty is awsome. no way to totally understand.
Christ being the example, teaching everything and everywhere he went had a purpose, he did what we cant, but as we grow we become more like him.
Christ had boundries just like us and obsticals the difference being he did everything right, praise God.
all Glory and honour to Christ the king!!
love
chuck :oops: euty
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Lightseeker,
But what if I made a choice which was the result of the 'god of this world', whose will isn't going to be for God's good pleasure as Phi 2:13 says. Do lying and evil works bring good pleasure to your Father in heaven? That's not my view of my heavenly Father. That view lines up with churchianitie's definitions of His good pleasure being torture in a eternal hell.
Thats impossible, because as was pointed out by Hills, the "god" of this world - Satan - was created for the very purpose of what He is doing.
Remember the Story of Job, could satan touch Job without Gods permission? Could He do anything to Job (FOR EXAMPLE KILL HIM) if God did not give Him permission to do it?
Here is some scripture on satan
"Behold, I have created the smiththat blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER [SATAN] TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).
"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).
Here is the Scripture on free will, well some scripture.
"Having PREDESTINATED US ... according to the good pleasure of HIS will ... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who worketh ALL THINGS after the COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL:" (Eph. 1:5 and 11).
"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called..." (Rom. 8:30).
"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy ... It is not of him that willeth, but of God who showeth mercy" (Rom. 9: 15-16).
God Himself is the reason people do not believe!
"the God of this world (age - aion) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).
"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day" (Rom. 11:8).
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Thanks Ray I'll read that. Sorry Chuck....my bad.
lilitalienboi16
Thats impossible, because as was pointed out by Hills, the "god" of this world - Satan - was created for the very purpose of what He is doing.
Which I addressed as part of God's acceptable will but not His Good and Perfect pleasure. It is part of the soverignty of God.
In the story of Job did God tell Satan what he could do??? Or did God just tell him what he couldn't do? So whose will was active in Job's life? It looks like God and Satan to me.
All your 'free will scriptures' fall under my original premise. In it I said that I didn't think anyone had free will untill they were born again, then they were free and free indeed. And I totally agree with your God Himself is the reason people do not believe!
scriptures.
But now I'm actually wondering if they only lacked free will to choose Christ. I may be going backward thanks to you guys imput. :wink: Not really...I'm enjoying and considering the imput from all...OK most. :P
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I think you are taking the one scripture that you believe says that In Jesus Christ we are free, to mean that we have free will. Even JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF didn't have free will. Everything He did was of the Father, His own was was the FATHERS WILL. So how can you sit here and say that when we believe in Jesus Christ we have free will, but before that we don't.
I believe in another thread you said that part of the soul that was not believing in Christ dies, but that other part when its born again lives on. Where do you get this kind of stuff? You make some wild assumptions and im sorry if i sound mean or harsh, none of it is inded, only love i am just trying to understand where these assumptions come from.
About the Story of Job, the overall point i was attempting ot make was that, Satan could not do ONE THING to job unless he had GODS PERMISSION and God is/was/willbe well aware of what Satan is doing therefor making it GODS WILL and NOT SATANS. God willed Job be tested allowing the Devil to test Him.
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Thanks Ray I'll read that. Sorry Chuck....my bad.
lilitalienboi16
Thats impossible, because as was pointed out by Hills, the "god" of this world - Satan - was created for the very purpose of what He is doing.
Which I addressed as part of God's acceptable will but not His Good and Perfect pleasure. It is part of the soverignty of God.
In the story of Job did God tell Satan what he could do??? Or did God just tell him what he couldn't do? So whose will was active in Job's life? It looks like God and Satan to me.
All your 'free will scriptures' fall under my original premise. In it I said that I didn't think anyone had free will untill they were born again, then they were free and free indeed. And I totally agree with your God Himself is the reason people do not believe!
scriptures.
But now I'm actually wondering if they only lacked free will to choose Christ. I may be going backward thanks to you guys imput. :wink: Not really...I'm enjoying and considering the imput from all...OK most. :P
Free from what? The sovereignty and will of God? He was speaking to the Jews.... who were in BONDAGE to the LAW....
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.[/list:u]
We are freed from the law.... freed from sin and death
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/list:u]
because....
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.[/list:u]
Don't ya think?? :wink:
Chrissie