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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: indianabob on January 26, 2022, 09:59:50 PM
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High folks,
New topic to peruse and comment upon.
When we are made immortal and see the Lord as he actually is...how will we relate to him, as Lord, yes and as our friend and as our Elder brother as well.
Think of the relationship we will have with Christ Jesus and with one another then.
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Consider John 15:7-17
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
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Bob
I constantly think about this. I think on this like "wow we will be the only generation that will never ever die, or at least the 1st and for that Father and Jesus, thank you thank you thank you!!!"
My thought is that that generation will have something unique that no other, at least in the past, will ever have. Not making them more special than others but aaaaayyyyeeee...Hopefully we will be those special people. Just imagine what we could talk about on that
I live by this verse 1 Cor 15:51 Behold I show you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we all shall be changed in a instant, in a twinkling of an eye...
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Good day AK4,
That's Anthony right?
You said we are those who would never die physically.
Well I'm old and I think when I'm caught away to be with Jesus that I'll leave this old husk behind.
Think about it, if Jesus returns to take me and I just disappear people will wonder and keep looking for me or my body. So I tend to believe that I'll just get a new body and leave this 1935 version with all of it's scars here to rot.
Second, I think we are special. Not that it is, because of anything we have done or accomplished.
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
I should also mention that we should not let our special gift go to our heads. Be humble and meek.
We are servants, bought with a price to bring others into the kingdom later.
1Cor 1:26-31
Indy Bob
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We are Not Resurrected as Physical Beings: https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw (https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw)
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Good morning Dennis,
Thank you for adding that information.
Ray explained it quite well.
We have a miraculous change coming and it is not easy to explain how different our new existence will be.
I'm sure that we will be very pleased to learn what God has done to us and for us.
Indy Bob
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Yes Dennis I know. The whole chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians is explaining that starting at verse 51. It's an amazing thought that no other religion/teaching has that mortal man will be changed instantly to an immortal man and we will know that we made it, we have been changed, given immortality.
Think about it, you finally have death demolished and you know it. You are part of that generation that fulfills this prophesy. Maybe it's just me but this is one of the best and wonderful prophecies in the scriptures ever given to mankind...that you can be part of the generation that never ever dies.
Btw this has nothing to do with the false rapture teachings out there
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Hi again Anthony,
What scriptures can you reference that describe the differences in our new body?
When Jesus had been resurrected and was visiting his friends in their secret meeting place
that was securely closed against intruders, he suddenly appeared inside the room without
opening a door. Can anyone explain that?
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Definitly is something to think about and amazing going from mortal to immortal.
Jesus must of tranformed Himself some how if He can enter n leave a room without useing a door or window.
Whats also amazing is He ate with the decipled to .so does that mean will be able to change our bodies to.
God bless
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Heya Bob
"What scriptures can you reference that describe the differences in our new body?"---The differences...Hmmm in 1 Cor 15 verse 52 we have this
...and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I cant think of many other verses explaining what bodies we have but I do see how Paul deduced this from other scriptures.
Luke 21:27 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
We are also told that no man can see God and Ray has a study proving that it must take some power from God for man to be able to see Him so putting 2 and 2 together I see how Paul "came up" with this prophecy. Those alive seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds will be changed like what it says in 1 Corinthians. And another witness...
Acts 1:10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
I know we will be given immortal bodies to be able to see Jesus coming with the clouds so we can live. There are more verses I can reference but Im drawing a blank right now smh lol.
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Wendy and Bob
About Jesus being able to appear inside a room...I have a couple of theories...
John3:6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You c must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
"So is everyone born of the Spirit"...that's interesting to me. So Jesus appears to appear where He pleases out of nowhere but maybe He was already there and the people He appeared to just didn't know it.
I find this interesting too for us who will be saving the world with Jesus
Isa 30:20Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.”
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Definitly is something to think about and amazing going from mortal to immortal.
Jesus must of tranformed Himself some how if He can enter n leave a room without useing a door or window.
Whats also amazing is He ate with the decipled to .so does that mean will be able to change our bodies to.
God bless
Wendy, I believe these scriptures answer your question.
Phil 3:20-21
20 But our citizenship is in heaven.And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Corinthians 15:49
49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
Thinking further on the kind of glory mentioned in verse 21, I thought of John's description of his vision of the risen Christ in Rev. 1:12-16
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across his chest with a golden sash. His head and his hair were white like white wool, like snow; and his eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and his face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Still like the son of man, but radiating a glory not like anything I can begin to imagine. The closest I've ever come in comprehending it, was from a dream I had, where I was standing in his presence. The glory, love and power that iminated from him was so magnificantly beautiful all I could do was weep uncontrollably.
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Great commentary Anthony, I will follow up with additional study to see what I can find.
Bob :D
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Thank you Bob and keep me posted. This topic has been on my mind for years and years.
Wanda, very nice. I never thought of that Revelation one.
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From the Rapture Paper
I quote Ray
Our bodies will be celestial………while Abraham is promised…a specific portion of the earth.
Actually, scripture tells us that Abrahams specific portion is THE WORLD. ( Rom.4:13]
Paul and the Gentile saints are promised an allotment among the celestials.
1 Corth. 15:38-39,,,, Not all flesh is the same flesh……..and so on.
Paul tells us that there are bodies terrestrial and gives us several examples , bodies of
men, beasts, fliers and fishes. He also informs us that there are celestial bodies.
Terrestrial we know are of the earth.
Celestial………ON heavens……that part of the universe that is ON, or higher than,
divine , perfect.
Spiritual…….having the qualities of the spirit
1…..of the spirit….2…. Of or consisting of spirit, not corporeal.
The first man Adam Is of the soil
The second man is the Lord out of heaven.( Celestial, spirit )
Didn’t Ray say that those who are born of the spirit are like the wind?
Spirit is invisible. I liked when Ray spoke of atoms and nucleus and electrons
and the supernatural power of how Christ keeps everything together.
This is amazing stuff, especially how the laws of thermodynamics work.
Ray said we would have a better understanding if we study this law.
Rev.11: 18 & 19.
Will there be flashes of lightening. I don’t know 🤷♀️but lightening is pretty powerful and bright.
Let there be light…. Come Lord Jesus
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Amen Musterseed
Yes here is a verse where it says we will be like the wind
John3:6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
When you mesh all the scientific stuff, quantum mechanics, quantum physics, Mandelbrot set, etc etc it just gets super fascinating. I just imagine being the people who witness this change into immortality. What a witness to God the Father and Jesus they will be!! Also the feeling of validation.
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Thanks for that info Pamela, Ray's writings on these things helped me go places in mind I had never been.
Anthony, I can still remember the first time I read 1 Cor 15:51 and understood the mystery of it. WOW! I'm still in awe. Of course I can only speculate, but I think such a transformation would require a physical atomic change of matter itself. Hence being born of spirit. Has anyone here never thought about what was involved in the transformation of the spirit Jesus to the physical man?
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Wanda
Ikr. When I got the mystery of that first and God put it in my mind that it really clearly saying that there will be a generation of people who will never ever die (I pray to God to give me discernment in the simplest terms like "aye Father dumb it down for me") I was like whoa. Then many other scriptures started opening up to me on this subject and even how its possible Paul was able to come up with this line. I live by that 1 Cor 15:51 scripture with lots of hope.
So now Im pretty sensitive to seeing other scriptures that mention or allude to that one like this Matt 24:30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
I love it. And yes Ive thought about what that transformation will be like and with all the scientific stuff that will go along with it. It really is going to be something awesome to behold and study.
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Anthony, I don't think my question was clear. We all know Jesus had to undergo a spiratual transformation after death and resurrection, but he first underwent a transformation from spirit to flesh. Thinking on this is what led me to seeing the mystery in 1 Cor 15:51.
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Wanda
Oh yeah Im thinking on the same way. Like there is a spirit molecule or something or what "magic" is it that makes the transformation work. Speaking of which, if I can remember, there are some clues about going from spirit to flesh. Remember some angels could do it (and Jesus said we would be like the angels, but that may be just in reference to being immortal but idk).
Hmmm that's an interesting thought (I paid attention to the words this time lol) "a physical atomic change of matter itself". Let me let that sink in for a little
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Bob:
At that time we will all relate to Jesus like another son of God (though Jesus has the preeminence in everything [hence...King of kings]), because we will be like him and see him as he is.
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).
Dean
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A couple of thoughts from reading the thread.
1. "We shall not all sleep, BUT we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.". This includes those who "sleep". Given that there is no knowledge in death, this changing in a moment is just as true for those who sleep as for those who "shall not". Was Paul preaching foolishness when he hoped for the time when his change comes or did he lose that hope upon dying? Who is changed first? The "dead in Christ", or those that are alive and remain?
2. Is there really a correctly, decently translated scripture that says there will be people who never die? It is appointed unto man once to die. Given that those who are alive and remain will be changed, and after those who sleep... maybe there is something more lofty about "dying" than Churchianity has taught us. It's no second-class resurrection, and no disappointment that by the will of God "we've" missed the "lucky" generation who are alive and remain.
Personally, I don't expect to be alive at His appearing. And that's okay with me, because He has already appeared to me in Spirit and "resurrected" me from death to faith. And to me, that tops everything.
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Dave:
Yes, it is appointed unto man once to die. However, Ray would also mention that the sum of His word is truth.
As an example of using Scripture both ways (natural and spiritual), we know that Romans 1:26-27 condemns homosexuality, but... is there a deeper, spiritual meaning? Yes.
Therefore, look at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 through the same lens of both interpretations, the spiritual (as you have mentioned), and the natural. In the natural, verses 15 and 17 in particular are a double witness to people being alive when the Lord returns.
I will be 56 years old next month. I can tell you personally that I am not planning to die before His return.
Dean
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Hey Dean
Did you notice my post in the thread updates.
I quoted Rays explanation of 1 Thes:4:15-16. 🤔
Those not only alive but surviving changing conditions.
What are those conditions as we venture further into
our journey? God has cut short the time for the sake of
the elect, because of great tribulation and the conditions
of the earth. The rapture paper explains a lot.
Heb.12:27-28… REMOVING ( caps Rays) those things that are shaken
that those things that cannot be shaken may REMAIN….accepting
an unshakable Kingdom.
The parables of the Sower and the Parable of the Net .
John 17:15… didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father
“ I am not asking that thou shouldest be taking them AWAY ( cap’s Rays)
OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest be keeping them from
the wicked one.
As in the days of Noah, Noah and his family remained on the earth.
The good are retained and kept.
This Rapture Paper along with The Myth of Free Will, for my understanding are of Rays most excellent works. They are all amazing of course but I study these two the most.
We are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven..
God Bless you all.
Nevertheless , whether we live or die , we are the Lords. Thank the Lord.
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I'm not denying either the Spiritual or the literal, though certitude in many matters eludes me. And that's ok with me too. Whatever measure of faith and understanding I have was given to me. It simply is. Not. Up. To. Me. to determine His steps.
Let's assume you are correct in your assumption. What I'm asking is--of what particular benefit is it to be "alive and remaining"?
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Valid point Dave.
The great majority of saints are long gone and yet their change will seem to come immediately after they lost consciousness.
I believe that Paul was reassuring the saints of his day that they would not lose their loved ones who had already died in faith. Plus it seems that Paul was expecting the return to be quite soon, even in his normal life time.
Bob
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Sorry I need to reply more on this because this subject is what I live by and have thought about countlessly...being part of the generation that will never ever die/how to address Jesus in the resurrection. I have lots of thoughts on this and will try not to get to longwinded lol
Dave
"Was Paul preaching foolishness when he hoped for the time when his change comes or did he lose that hope upon dying? Who is changed first? The "dead in Christ", or those that are alive and remain?"---Dave, well the scriptures say the dead will rise before those living shall be changed---Ooohhh that just made me think that that will also be a sign along with the coming of Jesus in the clouds and the sounding of the trump. We will see the dead rise, probably amazed and then boom we are changed in an instant. Sorry I went on a tangent there lol. But was Paul preaching foolishness? You know I thought about how Paul had to feel being given this prophecy, having that hope that he will part of that generation that will never ever die then later in life realizing that he wasn't going to be one of the ones who fulfill that prophecy. Its really depressing just thinking about it that way but he kept the faith and that's the way I look at. And honestly it would be a huge disappointment to me if I didn't make it. Ive prayed to the Father about this many many times.
"Is there really a correctly, decently translated scripture that says there will be people who never die?"---That's why I think 1 Cor 15:51 is so clear for this never ever dying/seeing Jesus return with the clouds. Its so clear like Phil 2:13 is for no freewill. I personally haven't found another verse so clear as 1 Cor 15:51 but there are lots of places in scriptures that allude to it. Its kind of like what Ray says in the lake of fire series about "seeing the invisible". When I read the scriptures, there are verses that just pops out on this subject where Im seeing the invisible that matches up with "we shall not all sleep" even though its not directly saying it.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
See right in there. We wait for His Son from heaven---well the ones alive are waiting too and--who rescues us from the wrath to come---well those people are alive when they are rescued. That lines up perfectly with we shall not all sleep but be changed.
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Let's assume you are correct in your assumption. What I'm asking is--of what particular benefit is it to be "alive and remaining"?
I see lots of benefits of it personally. I really like the idea of being part of the ones fulfilling that prophecy. I think there will be a feeling of relief and justification and jubilee etc etc and that we will be a GREAT witness along with those resurrected of Gods power and His plan. We will be able to talk to those who we are going to save like "look what God did to me...Im 200 years old and look like a teenager. You can trust me that my God will do the same for you if you listen to what we are telling you."
Hmmm just had a thought there...will we be like the apostles of their time with powers to perform miracles and one of those miracles is showing those who are to be saved that we were given immortality? Hmm just a thought
Anyway I see lots of benefits of it. Even like teaching those who need to be saved and believe in hell and that the lake of fire is literally the second death. No we can show them that no the lake of fire is not a literal 2nd death, look at us, are we dead we can ask them.
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Listen to the audio on you tube The day and hour prophecy. Let me know what you think please.
Also I have a question.
Why would God have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the elect ?
A good read is LOfF Pt.C. RE, eonian life, and dying
And more specific scriptures about this are in the Rapture Study, beginning just above
THE RAPTURE OF THE WICKED. ( caps Rays)
Quoting Ray here from the Rapture Paper, “ It was always God’s intention for the righteous to
REMAIN on the earth.
Then he quotes scriptures to confirm it.
I don’t have an opinion. I have been studying this for quite a while now but this is what I see so far.
I just want to share and get your thoughts if you like.
In Christ , Pamela❤️
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Anthony, again you are repeating the first recorded lie of Satan. Everybody dies. Everybody. This mortal MUST put on immortality and this corruption MUST put on incorruption.
So what do we do with this statement that those who are "alive and remain" are changed? For my part, it makes me look at "dying" in a new and "higher" light. There is a difference between "dying" and "being dead". The latter is likened to "sleep". The former, I believe, is spiritually synonymous with "change". Those He has chosen have plenty of dying to do but until this "body of death" gives way, they are not yet fit to rule because they have not fully followed the Lord, who died and was raised.
There are very likely other ways to understand this, and I'm content to let others have theirs--as long as it does not repeat or endorse Satan's first recorded lie, even if it is done carelessly.
I try to temper my imagination in these matters. All I care about is that there will be a few who are "born of the Spirit" and, thus, are bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Nothing else matters to me, and if the next age resembles the vanities of this age, then Dear God, please leave me dead.
Check out the materials Pamela mentioned. I'm on my phone and can't post a link, but the LOF part entitled "The origins of endless punishment" is Good Reading. Take care.
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Anthony, again you are repeating the first recorded lie of Satan. Everybody dies. Everybody. This mortal MUST put on immortality and this corruption MUST put on incorruption.
So what do we do with this statement that those who are "alive and remain" are changed? For my part, it makes me look at "dying" in a new and "higher" light. There is a difference between "dying" and "being dead". The latter is likened to "sleep". The former, I believe, is spiritually synonymous with "change". Those He has chosen have plenty of dying to do but until this "body of death" gives way, they are not yet fit to rule because they have not fully followed the Lord, who died and was raised.
There are very likely other ways to understand this, and I'm content to let others have theirs--as long as it does not repeat or endorse Satan's first recorded lie, even if it is done carelessly.
I try to temper my imagination in these matters. All I care about is that there will be a few who are "born of the Spirit" and, thus, are bearing the fruit of the Spirit. Nothing else matters to me, and if the next age resembles the vanities of this age, then Dear God, please leave me dead.
Check out the materials Pamela mentioned. I'm on my phone and can't post a link, but the LOF part entitled "The origins of endless punishment" is Good Reading. Take care.
Wait what??? How so? Is repeating 1 Cor 15:51 repeating satans lie?
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Is that repeating the lie? It clearly says it right there that there will be a generation of people that will not die. They will be living then changed. The whole chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians is all about the resurrection, the order, bodies, the false teachings etc etc.
Even Ray taught this. For those who will be partakers in this "we shall not all sleep", they must die but dying to self, judge yourself now so that you don't have to be judged. He said or better stated he repeated the verse "it is appointed unto men once to die then judgement" then he went on to explain there is those who are dead but living like when Jesus said let the dead bury their dead---he explained that those people (we are those people before coming to Christ) are spiritually dead and so we, you, have to die from being that person and thus you are appointed once to die, that is your death. Then judgment--judge yourself lest you will be judged.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
The mortal must put on immortality. That's not repeating satans lie. Satans lie is that you were born immortal. Paul is saying you are mortal and must be given immortality. Two totally different ideas.
Dave, this subject is deep and fascinating to ponder on. But it is an idea/theory/prophecy that no other religion has. Where in Gods teaching, death means death and so when you die, you die. So God says when He returns not only will those who died be brought back to life but those living will be changed to live forever too. No other religion/teaching that I know teaches that.
(Lol I just reread that line "satans lie is that you were born immortal"---born immortal---talk about a contradiction lol)
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Listen to the audio on you tube The day and hour prophecy. Let me know what you think please.
Also I have a question.
Why would God have to shorten the days of tribulation for the sake of the elect ?
Why would God shorten those days? I think there is a clue, maybe a flat out statement...
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. kjv
Now the NIV
22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
So no one would survive??? I take that 2 ways. 1. Its to save the elect and the rest be killed. But I don't think that one fits with the rest of scripture. 2. Its to save the elect and on behalf of the elect (for the elects sake) the rest of the people will be spared/saved.
for the sake of
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.
Now I never noticed that. So through the acts (maybe prayers) of the elect, those days will be shortened. Interesting.
And more specific scriptures about this are in the Rapture Study, beginning just above
THE RAPTURE OF THE WICKED. ( caps Rays)
Quoting Ray here from the Rapture Paper, “ It was always God’s intention for the righteous to
REMAIN on the earth.
Then he quotes scriptures to confirm it.
I don’t have an opinion. I have been studying this for quite a while now but this is what I see so far.
I just want to share and get your thoughts if you like.
I think we are on the same page here. It was eye opening when Ray pointed out that if there was to be a rapture as taught by Babylon, the scriptures pretty much show that the rapture will be of the wicked. Listen to this audio of Rays. It also fits how if there was to be a rapture (as they teach it), it most likely would be of the wicked
August 6th, 2006 Hell Does Not Exist
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Hell_08-06-2006.mp3 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/Hell_08-06-2006.mp3)
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Hey Dean
Did you notice my post in the thread updates.
I quoted Rays explanation of 1 Thes:4:15-16. 🤔
Those not only alive but surviving changing conditions.
What are those conditions as we venture further into
our journey? God has cut short the time for the sake of
the elect, because of great tribulation and the conditions
of the earth. The rapture paper explains a lot.
Heb.12:27-28… REMOVING ( caps Rays) those things that are shaken
that those things that cannot be shaken may REMAIN….accepting
an unshakable Kingdom.
The parables of the Sower and the Parable of the Net .
John 17:15… didn’t our Lord clearly pray to His Father
“ I am not asking that thou shouldest be taking them AWAY ( cap’s Rays)
OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou shouldest be keeping them from
the wicked one.
As in the days of Noah, Noah and his family remained on the earth.
The good are retained and kept.
This Rapture Paper along with The Myth of Free Will, for my understanding are of Rays most excellent works. They are all amazing of course but I study these two the most.
We are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven..
God Bless you all.
Nevertheless , whether we live or die , we are the Lords. Thank the Lord.
Niiice catches. Very nice. And I'm still thinking on your premise. .the conditions...basically how does God turn flesh to immortal instantly..going by His laws of science etc. . Thats something I haven't thought of in the way you present it. I really likes. Idk what's your theory?
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Did you not read LOF Origins of endless punishment? Ray explains and answers Do believer’s already possess eonian life? Do believers in Christ never die? Believers do not die for the eon , etc.
This is just one excerpt but you should read all of it . I read over and over and over paying
attention to all the word’s especially Rays caps .
Now then I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God,
neither does corruption inherit incorruption . Behold , I show you a mystery,we shall
not all sleep.(according to Christiandom,no one will ever sleep. They contradict by saying there is no such thing as sleep in death, but they lie.) Psalm 13:3 , Consider and hear me O my God,,,,,
less I sleep the sleep OF DEATH) but we shall all be changed.[WHEN]? This is so important.
When shall we be changed? At the instant that all believers die? NO.,,,,, in a moment, in the twinkling
of an eye, at the last trump, ( then and only then and AT NO OTHER TIME IN HISTORY) for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead ( the dead, mind you, not the living, but the dead) shall be
raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
at the resurrection we will be given incorruption and immortality which means deathlessness.
John 11:24 I know that he shall he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
The last day IS the resurrection from the dead.
vs.25-26….Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead ( margin reads May die) , yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in me
shall never die, ( GK. Should by no means be dying for the eon) Believe you this?
This KJV scripture contradicts. ,,,,,,John 11:26 is a translation in error and the one used by
theologians to pervert the word of God and to continue Satans lie of you shall NOT surely die.
BTW, o
This is I think what Dave was talking about, correct me if I misunderstand Dave.
If someone believes in Christ and then DIES, yet shall he live, contradicts
If someone believes in Christ he will never die.
Ray,, am I going to fast for anyone?😁
Please read John 20-24,,, the conversation Jesus had with Peter about John.
I do not have a theory about how our change will come AK4 , I just know it will be at the last day.
Well, when is the last day? At Christ’s coming in the day of the Lord. Paul’s epistles of the Thessalonians
is quite informative and the rapture paper explains about the elect REMAINING UNTIL.
Ok so that’s enough for now my old fingers are tired.
O and since Gods laws work in the entirety of the universe, the laws of thermodynamics are
working on all matter. Ray said the earth is very old . Everything physical is in decay.
I did a little study on entropy. Form what I understand, every physical is passing away.
To quote Ray,,, it’s getting , older ,colder ,and darker. This to me is also a spiritual statement.
Another quote from Ray “ Birth is a miracle, but death also is a miracle.
Something just came to my mind. If we are to follow in the very footsteps of Jesus,
and we are.,,,, Jesus said “ Follow Me” ,,,,,,Jesus physically died.
God Bless you all , our faith rests in the power of God.💕
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Ray also said that Paul and the disciples believed Jesus would appear and change them in their lifetime, but obviously it didn't happen.
DISCIPLES THOUGHT JESUS WOULD COME IN THEIR LIFETIME
I Thess. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Paul said, “we who are alive and remain.” Now you could say he’s just saying “we,” whoever the we are at that time of His coming. But no, it sounds like he’s saying, we right now here. Those of us that are alive until His coming, we won’t actually go to sleep we’ll just be changed. You know, he’ll come and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we will rise to meet the Lord in the air.
I Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep…
Paul thought Christ would come before he would go to sleep(die).
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html)
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Valid point Porter,
In my understanding...if I am alive at Christ's return my flesh body will die and will be instantly replaced with a NEW body of the manner of Christ's body. In other words by flesh will not disappear from view it will just lie down and begin to decay.
My spirit, my mind, my thoughts will be contained in my new spiritual body and I will not know that my flesh is dying or dead or in the sleep of death. Of course the term sleep of death requires that a person awaken and of course with the same body restored. Whereas in my case I will get a new spiritual body and not a restored flesh body.
Now the next point (corrections welcome) is that those in the judgement who are the goats and not the sheep, will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the "second death". Since spirit cannot die and possesses deathlessness, then is appears that those sent to the Lake of fire, the second death, necessarily had to be resurrected flesh and blood.
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Does the above explanation make sense? Is it scriptural?
Bob
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Hi Bob,
I know when the "once to die" and "after this the judgment" is applied to the Elect, it's 100 percent spiritual. I'm also 100 percent sure the "after this the judgment" also called the "second death" is also spiritual when applied to the "goats" that are cast into the lake of fire.
I'm just not sure about the "goats" being mortal before their judgment. I personally do not see any problem with the "goats" being resurrected immortal and then dying a second spiritual death.
By the way, I'm not completely sure if Ray was correct in his interpretation of I Thess. 4:15 and I Cor. 15:51, as I see it as words of spirit. Could I be wrong? Yes, totally, but I'm not too worried about it.
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Hi again Porter,
Thanks for your reply.
Please let me try to clear up my view a little.
In my understanding...everyone who is not elect goes to the white throne judgement or evaluation of their past lives.
At that time if their name is found in the book of life they are made immortal.
Made immortal by God's grace and not by anything they have done to earn it.
So keep in mind that these folks didn't know their fate until they were resurrected. Right??
Most of them had never heard of a Messiah or a Christ.
They died thinking that there was nothing else. Once you are dead that is it. You only live once they would say.
That knowledge was only given to the children of Abraham the Israelites. Right??
So don't they have to be resurrected as mortal to face their evaluation?
God will forgive them, true, but they did not know that when they died.
Also how long will the evaluation/judgement take? The Bible doesn't say, but God is gracious and will I think grant time to understand all the details at that time.
Keep in mind that this is NOT a time of condemnation it is a time of education for most who have never had a bible or been in a church congregation. Of course we all are condemned to die...until we are given forgiveness by God.
If their name is not found in the book of life they are killed or die again which is the lake of fire.
So then how can those not found in the book of life be killed if they are already immortal or deathless?
There are more details of course, but please ask specific questions if you want.
Thanks for your patience with my views.
Indiana Bob
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I just put Hitler in the search engine and # 14 Transcript,,, Physical or Spiritual
resurrection bodies for the wicked and non believers came up.
Ray pretty well explains this whole discussion that we have been discussing.
We diligently dig for His treasures and He leads us to the field.😁
All Glory to God
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So then how can those not found in the book of life be killed if they are already immortal or deathless?
The way I understand it is, the second death/lake of fire represents the death of carnality, aka the beast within. Consider that Satan is a spirit, despite the fact, he possesses a carnal mind that needs to die.
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I don't know how you guys are interpreting what I'm saying as if it's anywhere close to the immortal soul doctrine. I'm not saying the elect was born with an immortal soul or whatever. I clearly said I'm not by saying Satan's lie is you have a immortal soul but what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 15 is that the mortal, who by definition can't be or have an immortal anything, will become immortal. Think of it like someone was essentially born to die but yet was spared.
The generation that fulfills that prophecy, and that has to be prophecy, won't die even though at first, they know like every human really knows, we all are supposed to die.
I don't know. Maybe lm not being clear enough in what I'm saying
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Ok Anthony I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying.
In the transcript that I posted in my last post, Physical or Resurrection bodies for the wicked,
in the last paragraph, Ray quotes “ Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon
and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies ,will not be outdone
by the wicked who are raised from their graves. ( the valley of dry bones is a physical resurrection
representative of the whole house of Israel)
I want to put emphasis on Rays quote Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon.
Are those who are spared death the same those who are in 1 Cor: 15?
I will quote Ray “ The resurrection taught in this chapter of 1 Cor. 15 is that of they that are Christ’s
NOT the resurrection of the wicked to judgement. Pay attention to the words.😁” ( I am trying) 😂
I think about , well God has an appointed , specific time for absolutely everything, and I pray come Lord Jesus and hope that this is the conclusion of the eon because well, it’s horrible and miserable and I
really am sick of it. Nevertheless we have to wait and wear away the time as we attain to the unity
of the Spirit. It’s going to be amazingly awesome Anthony and I too am very excited.
1 Cor.6:17…But he who is joined to the Lord becomes ONE SPIRIT WITH HIM.
Now, I learned something new while reading this transcript, which you guys probably already
knew and that’s about the prophecy of The Valley of Dry Bones. I really never studied it before
and assumed ( incorrectly) that it was the resurrection of all the dead , including the elect, but
NO. This speaks of a resurrection of the wicked back to physical bodies.
Ray say’s about Eze.37:8” I know of no spiritual tendons , muscles, fat or skin that
are put on physical bones to remake a spiritual man. This is a physical resurrection of
the dead.Ezekiel 37:10… and I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the
Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet, a very great force.
Will the wicked then inherit incorruption at their resurrection. Well many say yes yes
yes they will.
NO, no they won’t. Are men like Hitler, Saddam etc, who are among the most corrupt able
men who have ever lived going to be given bodies that are incorruptible?
Is there a scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious
, holy, and divine light? ( as those who inherit incorruption ( un- decaying, Strong #861,
aphtharsia from #862, incorruptibility, unending existence, ( fig.) genuineness,
incorruption, sincerity?
I think not. Rather we are presented with this characterization of the resurrected
wicked to eonian judgement.
Dan. 12:2,,, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.
Some to everlasting ( eonian) life and some to shame,( rebuke, reproach, disgrace)
and everlasting ( eonian) contempt,( repulsion, aversion, abhorrence.)
Continuing Rays quotes .
1 Cor.15:50.. now this I say brethren that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of God, neither doth corruption ( corrupt men like Hitler, etc.) inherit incorruptiion.
The only ones who inherit incorruption {un- decaying} are those we (who )have
borne the image of the earthy ,( and) shall bear the image of the heavenly, and
this happens AT A SPECIFIC TIME. ( caps mine for emphasis, not yelling 😁)
God Bless you all as we attain to the unity of the Spirit.
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Ok Anthony I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying.
In the transcript that I posted in my last post, Physical or Resurrection bodies for the wicked,
in the last paragraph, Ray quotes “ Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon
and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies ,will not be outdone
by the wicked who are raised from their graves. ( the valley of dry bones is a physical resurrection
representative of the whole house of Israel)
I want to put emphasis on Rays quote Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon.
Are those who are spared death the same those who are in 1 Cor: 15?
I will quote Ray “ The resurrection taught in this chapter of 1 Cor. 15 is that of they that are Christ’s
NOT the resurrection of the wicked to judgement. Pay attention to the words.😁” ( I am trying) 😂
I think about , well God has an appointed , specific time for absolutely everything, and I pray come Lord Jesus and hope that this is the conclusion of the eon because well, it’s horrible and miserable and I
really am sick of it. Nevertheless we have to wait and wear away the time as we attain to the unity
of the Spirit. It’s going to be amazingly awesome Anthony and I too am very excited.
1 Cor.6:17…But he who is joined to the Lord becomes ONE SPIRIT WITH HIM.
Now, I learned something new while reading this transcript, which you guys probably already
knew and that’s about the prophecy of The Valley of Dry Bones. I really never studied it before
and assumed ( incorrectly) that it was the resurrection of all the dead , including the elect, but
NO. This speaks of a resurrection of the wicked back to physical bodies.
Ray say’s about Eze.37:8” I know of no spiritual tendons , muscles, fat or skin that
are put on physical bones to remake a spiritual man. This is a physical resurrection of
the dead.Ezekiel 37:10… and I have prophesied as He commanded me, and the
Spirit comes into them, and they live, and stand on their feet, a very great force.
Will the wicked then inherit incorruption at their resurrection. Well many say yes yes
yes they will.
NO, no they won’t. Are men like Hitler, Saddam etc, who are among the most corrupt able
men who have ever lived going to be given bodies that are incorruptible?
Is there a scripture that presents the resurrection of the wicked in such a glorious
, holy, and divine light? ( as those who inherit incorruption ( un- decaying, Strong #861,
aphtharsia from #862, incorruptibility, unending existence, ( fig.) genuineness,
incorruption, sincerity?
I think not. Rather we are presented with this characterization of the resurrected
wicked to eonian judgement.
Dan. 12:2,,, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.
Some to everlasting ( eonian) life and some to shame,( rebuke, reproach, disgrace)
and everlasting ( eonian) contempt,( repulsion, aversion, abhorrence.)
Continuing Rays quotes .
1 Cor.15:50.. now this I say brethren that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom
of God, neither doth corruption ( corrupt men like Hitler, etc.) inherit incorruptiion.
The only ones who inherit incorruption {un- decaying} are those we (who )have
borne the image of the earthy ,( and) shall bear the image of the heavenly, and
this happens AT A SPECIFIC TIME. ( caps mine for emphasis, not yelling 😁)
God Bless you all as we attain to the unity of the Spirit.
Musterseed
Yes, everything Ive been saying lines up perfectly to what Ray was saying. See I said this in an earlier post but most of yall were thinking I was saying those who are alive at Christ return had immortal souls or something when that was far from what I was saying. Check it out this is what I said earlier:
Quote from: Dave in Tenn on March 01, 2022, 05:39:49 AM
Let's assume you are correct in your assumption. What I'm asking is--of what particular benefit is it to be "alive and remaining"?
I see lots of benefits of it personally. I really like the idea of being part of the ones fulfilling that prophecy. I think there will be a feeling of relief and justification and jubilee etc etc and that we will be a GREAT witness along with those resurrected of Gods power and His plan. We will be able to talk to those who we are going to be save like "look what God did to me...Im 200 years old and look like a teenager. You can trust me that my God will do the same for you if you listen to what we are telling you."
Hmmm just had a thought there...maybe will we be like the apostles of their time with powers to perform miracles and one of those miracles is showing those who are to be saved that we were given immortality? Hmm just a thought
Anyway I see lots of benefits of it. Even like teaching those who need to be saved and believe in hell and that the lake of fire is literally the second death. No we can show them that no the lake of fire is not a literal 2nd death, look at us, are we dead we can ask them.
Musterseed, you got me to want to study that Ezek verses. I knew about it but I haven't read it in awhile and maybe I will see some more there
Anthony
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Ok Anthony I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying.
In the transcript that I posted in my last post, Physical or Resurrection bodies for the wicked,
in the last paragraph, Ray quotes “ Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon
and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies ,will not be outdone
by the wicked who are raised from their graves. ( the valley of dry bones is a physical resurrection
representative of the whole house of Israel)
I want to put emphasis on Rays quote Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon.
Are those who are spared death the same those who are in 1 Cor: 15?
Yes Even Ray said this without saying it directly within what you last posted. They, possibly you and me, hopefully, are those people that are not only a witness but a witness witness to what would be....I mean it's such a wonderful thought I have no really justifiable words to describe it. Think about that.
Yes a witness witness...like a bone fide witness to being part of that generation that will get to do that. Even if its not you or me , the generation that will and can do that. I mean whoa
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Quote from: Musterseed on Yesterday at 12:26:06 PM
Ok Anthony I think I am beginning to understand what you are saying.
In the transcript that I posted in my last post, Physical or Resurrection bodies for the wicked,
in the last paragraph, Ray quotes “ Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon
and will live on into the reign of Jesus Christ with their physical bodies ,will not be outdone
by the wicked who are raised from their graves. ( the valley of dry bones is a physical resurrection
representative of the whole house of Israel)
I want to put emphasis on Rays quote Those who are spared death at the conclusion of this eon.
Are those who are spared death the same those who are in 1 Cor: 15?
I searched bible-truths.com and I cannot find this fragment: "Those who are spared death at the conclusion"
Someone please tell me exactly where the quote from Musterseed is found?
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Dennis
I explained how I found it in my previous reply #37 in my previous posts.
However I will say it again.
I typed in Hitler in the search engine and #14 titled Transcripts , Physical or Spiritual bodies
of the wicked came up . This is a Transcript of Ray’s. There is much more to it than what I wrote.
I will try to find it again
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Ok I just found it again by typing in transcript. It’s a transcript. It says new Article by Ray
of Rays audio.
Titled,,, Physical or Spiritual resurrection bodies for the wicked and non believers.
It came up in General Discussions #15
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It’s right there in Transcripts and it’s the last paragraph.
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https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,7474.msg59437.html#msg59437
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Dennis
I explained how I found it in my previous reply #37 in my previous posts.
However I will say it again.
I typed in Hitler in the search engine and #14 titled Transcripts , Physical or Spiritual bodies
of the wicked came up . This is a Transcript of Ray’s. There is much more to it than what I wrote.
I will try to find it again
This is a perfect example of why when a member copy and paste something written by Ray that they should ALSO copy and paste the LINK to where it was found.
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For some reason Google is not returning search results like it use to.
Example: "those who are spared death at the conclusion" site: bible-truths.com/forums
I need to find out why.
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I do not know how to post links on my I pad. I never have.
Please forgive my ignorance, I do not wish to cause trouble
for the forum.
I will refrain from posting any further so as to
not upset the flow and rules of the forum.
May God Bless You All
In Christ, Pamela
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I do not know how to post links on my I pad. I never have.
Please forgive my ignorance, I do not wish to cause trouble
for the forum.
I will refrain from posting any further so as to
not upset the flow and rules of the forum.
May God Bless You All
In Christ, Pamela
Pamela
No don't do that. I found it immediately when you posted it because I didn't believe it that Ray said it so clearly to there so I had to double check it. Heres all you have to do when posting links. Open a new tab, go to the article you want, then copy the url/address, then go back to your post and paste it there.
Keep posting. It looks like Dennis was just wondering why when he tried to google search it, google wouldn't produce his search.
Anthony
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I posted the link earlier and people are bypassing it. Here it is again.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,7474.msg59437.html#msg59437
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I posted the link earlier and people are bypassing it. Here it is again.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,7474.msg59437.html#msg59437
I seen it.
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I do not know how to post links on my I pad. I never have.
Please forgive my ignorance, I do not wish to cause trouble
for the forum.
I will refrain from posting any further so as to
not upset the flow and rules of the forum.
May God Bless You All
In Christ, Pamela
Pamela,
The comments I made about posting links when coping Ray's material was not to make you feel bad or ignorant. As I stated, it was a perfect opportunity to remind members the "best practice" when sharing Ray's comments.
I apologize if I offended you.
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I do not know how to post links on my I pad. I never have.
Please forgive my ignorance, I do not wish to cause trouble
for the forum.
I will refrain from posting any further so as to
not upset the flow and rules of the forum.
May God Bless You All
In Christ, Pamela
No need to do that Pamela. I don't have the will to read every word of this thread with my problems. So I missed the link. My main concern now is why isn't Google indexing like it use to?
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It’s ok Rene, I know you meant well and I take no offence. You did not make me feel bad or
ignorant, I am ignorant , ,😂 especially when it comes to technology.
I understand Dennis , please know my prayers are for your health to improve.
And remember that we are exactly where God wants us. He loves us 😁
Thankyou Anthony for your encouragement.
And it was Wanda to the rescue once again 🤗❤️
God Bless You All
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We are Not Resurrected as Physical Beings: https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw (https://youtu.be/cSZDvJrOxKw)
I asked this question some time ago. "Are we resurrected as physical beings at judgement"? The answers I received here were, "yes we are." Now I'm confused..scratches head.
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Zander,
I guess it depends on whom the "we" are. The Elect are judged now in this age as physical flesh and blood human beings, and then resurrected "to life".
I'm still not personally clear on what "the wicked" are resurrected as, but that is due to my own lack of understanding. However, it does seem as though the bible indicates that "the wicked" are resurrected as flesh and blood for their judgment also.
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Porter,
What I like to remember in my studies is that God does not err. God makes no mistakes.
So when God makes me immortal or undying it is a finished work. It is all clear sailing for me for ever after.
It has to be then that anyone that God makes undying will be with God for all the future times to come.
If we read scripture with the belief that God is always operating in HIS perfect will, then we avoid worry over any temporary misunderstanding we may have. Here is a quote that I like.
"we believe the truth because we ARE saved".
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It is not that we are saved because we first believed.
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When God decided to give us belief He first gave us salvation. Each in their own order.
Free for nothing.
Graciously.
Because God loves us ALL no matter what sins we are guilty of.
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"we believe the truth because we ARE saved".
=
It is not that we are saved because we first believed.
=
When God decided to give us belief He first gave us salvation. Each in their own order.
Free for nothing.
Bob,
Getting SAVED is a PROCESS. You may want to take the time to read the transcript from Ray's bible study entitled "How Hard is Getting Saved?" because what you stated above is in total contradiction.
Here is the link to the transcript and an excerpt from this study:
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3849.0.html Transcript
"Acts 2:21 MKJV
21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Am I denying that scripture? No, I’m not denying that scripture. What I’m saying is Christendom doesn’t know what that scripture means. Maybe many of you don’t know what that scripture means. But I’m here to tell you that if you do call upon the name of the Lord, you shall be saved. Notice, it is in the future tense. It doesn’t say you “have been” saved: if you believe you “have been already” saved. You’ll read that in my new paper too (Fools, Hypocrites, Snakes). I’ve talked about this already but here I bring it all out, I show you every scripture…there is no scripture in the bible that says anybody has ever been saved while they were still alive. You know that? There is no such thing as “being saved” in the past tense, while you are still alive.
There’s a reason why Christ says, “They’ll hate you and persecute you and everything, but he that endures until the END has “already been” saved….no, you endure to the end and then you SHALL be saved.” You are not saved, unless and until, we come up in the first resurrection. That is the only proof that anyone will have that they are saved, if you come up in the first resurrection. If you don’t, then you are not saved; it’s just axiomatic, if you don’t come up in that resurrection"
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Porter,
So when God makes me immortal or undying it is a finished work. It is all clear sailing for me for ever after.
Immortality is great and all, but I see it as merely a side benefit of the real prize of winning Christ. I'm not ignorant of the fact, that this might be an unpopular view, but I'm totally fine with that.
Mistakes, misunderstandings and ignorance are easier to admit and accept as I realize the flawed state and condition of my character - hence the need for the Second Man, the New Man, so the old man and his flaws can die. Like Ray said, this is a process that takes a lifetime.
What we have now is merely a "down payment" for the promise of the redemption of our souls. The finished work is that of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for the atonement of our sins. All that is left to do, is to get the sin out of the sinner, as Ray would say. I die daily, but I'm not there yet. It's like that verse from John.
Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
I do wonder, though, is it possible to win Christ in this lifetime? Is this what Paul meant?
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul endured to the end, his old man died, and Christ lived His life through Paul. It sounds like Jesus will give Paul a reward for being a good and faithful servant in this life. So, what is the goal, and when is it accomplished?
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I forget who said something along the lines of what benefit would it be if you were the generation that fulfills 1 Cor 15:51 prophecy. Well "I " stumbled upon this Rev 20:6, a very direct answer from the scriptures of the benefits of being one of the ones that fulfilled that prophecy
Rev 20:6
King James Bible
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Then whatelse does the scriptures say we will do? Ray revealed many many many...did i say many....many scriptures showing what we will be doing, if we are part of that generation. We are saving the world, with Jesus the scriptures say!!
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I started listening and following along again to the lake of fire series. Ray mentions Rev 20:6 along with many other verses how 1 Cor 15:51 can/will be true.
There's a lot we have to do
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In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away. [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.]. This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm. Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”. In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53. It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well. Is it not God`s will that all will be saved? Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality. Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?
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I started listening and following along again to the lake of fire series. Ray mentions Rev 20:6 along with many other verses how 1 Cor 15:51 can/will be true.
There's a lot we have to do
I'm with you on that, Anthony. To be given the honor of helping Jesus save the world really is a big deal. To rule and reign with Christ in His Kingdom is one of the rewards (as well as the reward of immortality) promised to those that overcome and endure to the end while they are still mortal.
The thing I have a problem understanding is whether there is a difference between when Jesus say's "I come quickly" in Revelation, and Paul saying "unto the coming of the Lord" in 1Th 4:15 . Are these two statements spiritual witnesses? Here's a quote from Ray that got me thinking. Hopefully the link works, as I've had some issues linking stuff correctly.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.0.html)
HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2007 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,5815.msg47181.html#msg47181)
I’ll give you a little insight into Revelation. This book is the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of prophecy.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show unto His servants, even the things which must shortly(quickly) come to pass: and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John;
v. 2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
v. 3 Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.
v. 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia:
Rev 1:08 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
He just keeps repeating this over and over. That He existed, He was killed, resurrected and He now is and He will come. Everything in this book is and was and will come, see. To every generation who reads this, He’s coming to you. He came in the pass, He is coming now, He’ll come in the future. How does this happen quickly?
It happens to you when you are born and have grown up big enough to read these pages and God opens up your mind. Then you have just so long to change your life, get rid of the beast, get rid of the carnality in you. That’s got to be done quickly, because at best we live, you know… well some of us live longer, but you live to maybe 80. If I live to be 130, my life would just now be half over with. Think about it.
So Jesus Christ is, was and will be in every generation, that was and is now and will be. This is a work in progress. This is about US.
Why would we have a book (Revelation) that we print and print and waste paper for thousands of years, about something that’s going to come in never never land? Why do we want that? Who cares? They say, ‘oh that’s for that last generation, they need to know it.’
Listen when they are closing the lid, it’s your last generation, you know. I don’t care if you were born in the 300’s or 800’s or 1600’s or 1900’s, that’s all you get, that short period of time. So these thing have to be done quickly.-----------
Another thing, I don't believe Jesus ever really left, at least not in the way the Church teaches. I believe Jesus simply disappeared, by becoming invisible again, as is the nature of spirit. Jesus is here now, with you and me always. However, when He does re-appear, that's when we become exactly like Him. Maybe that's what Paul and the other Apostles meant.
You can see why I'm having a hard time understanding and reconciling this literal concept of "the return of Jesus" vs the spiritual concept of "I come quickly". I think about these two concepts a lot, for years even. Perhaps it's not a big a deal as I think it is, but that it's much simpler than I'm making it out to be. Help lol.
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In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away. [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.]. This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm. Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”. In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53. It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well. Is it not God`s will that all will be saved? Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality. Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?
Interesting find Smitty! I was thinking something similar last night before going to bed, but I was thinking about it in a spiritual sense. I even asked myself, "what does it matter if we are literal flesh and blood"? Isn't the "down payment" we receive now, a taste of the spiritual life of Christ that comes from the realm of spirit?
Don't get me wrong, I look forward to a time when I can never die or get sick again. I really look forward to a time when I can see that my former earthly family is with Christ.
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Very interesting indeed. Your comment brought something to mind. Just thinking out loud here. Is it our physical flesh that makes us carnal or is it our minds? We think about it first and then we do it. According to the Word of God, to think on something carnal is a sin. Hate someone in your heart and you are a murderer. Lust after someone in your heart and you commit adultery. Christ was a physical man for a time and he was perfect in that flesh. Satan is not a physical being and is the most carnal creature that God ever created.
In Zechariah 14, which is a chapter devoted to the “Day of the Lord”, there is a verse [:12] that talks about the plague that the Lord smites the people with who fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh, eyes and tongue will consume away. [ H4743 mâqaq maw-kak' A primitive root; to melt; figuratively to flow, dwindle, vanish: - consume away, be corrupt, dissolve, pine away.]. This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and the entry into the spirit realm. Here I think that this will be to all, - the good, the bad and the ugly. If our Great God will have all to be saved, I have to ask the question here “What good is the flesh any longer at this point”. In :15 it even talks about the animal’s flesh having the same plague – [ no flesh animals in the Kingdom _ Isaiah 11:6]
I believe this is the change that all will experience at that time spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In the “twinkling of the eye” will not take very long but this makes me think that the flesh dies here as we move into the spirit realm.
Everyone will be spirit. :53. It is not alien to my thinking that all could put on immortality here as well. Is it not God`s will that all will be saved? Our wonderful Creator has the power to bring all to judgement in their own time according to His timing, with or without immortality. Will we not all eventually move into eternity after the eons of judgement have passed?
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That's it ralph. I see the quote from Zechariah 14 as a type of judgment resulting in the vanishing of the fleshy carnal mind. I'm just not completely sure if it represents the judgment of the Elect now in this age, or judgment of the wicked at the Great White Throne. Maybe the phrase "the day of the Lord" is key.
Is my literal flesh the problem? Which gets saved first? My mind or my body? And when does it get saved first? I know my body isn't being saved right now, but possibly my mind is being transformed to conform to the mind of Christ. I guess I just won't know till the end.
I'm paraphrasing here, but Ray once said something like - "do good, not for the promise of reward or to avoid punishment, but do good because it's the right thing to do".
Not saying you're wrong Smitty, because I actually think you're right to say "This seems to me to be the vanishing of the flesh and entry into the spirit realm". I can't think of better news than this.