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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: chrissiela on June 08, 2006, 02:12:35 PM
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I was reading this (http://forums.bible-truths.com/viewtopic.php?t=979) email:
Hello Ray:
I have E-mailed you a few times over the last couple of years and you have always been gracious enough to reply.
I was telling a Christian Lady Friend of mine that when you die...you are DEAD and await judgement day and at some point will THEN go to Heaven and that you do not automatically go to Heaven when you die (Hey, am I hired?!)
She brought up the thing Christ said on the Cross. I DID read your reply to this question you sent a reader awhile ago. I must admit that if I was standing there on the Mountain while Christ was crucified and I HEARD him utter "Today You shall be with me in Paradise" the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be a debate on where the comma should be placed...I would take Christ at his Word. Secondly, Christ DID use the word "Paradise". My questions are two-fold..... If "Paradise" does NOT mean "Heaven", than what does it mean?.....and # 2 why then DID Christ use the term "Paradise"? With most of your writings I feel you are 100% right-on....but I must admit I am "not seeing the light" on this issue. In your reply to the reader I mentioned you seem to fluff over the whole issue of "Paradise" and talk about other matters (and I agree with your logic...to the point where I irritate my men's group and they say I should stop reading your Web site! !!) . I must admit what happens to one when you die still bothers me a bit.....I want to agree with you but then again Christ clearly says NO man is good...so the ultimate judgement is that NO man passes...so once again it is left to Christ's Grace saving mankind (in which case why the delay in joining him?).
Help!
Scot
Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
Ray said:
"DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven."
and:
"Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?"
So what of these verses:
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
such an one caught up TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/list:u]
How is paradise not "heaven" when it says here that it is the "third heaven"?
These are the three verses in the NT scriptures that mention "paradise" and when I read them I see CHRIST, who is seated IN HEAVEN at the right hand of God.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be WITH ME in paradise.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of THE TREE OF LIFE, WHICH IS IN the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD.[/list]
God planted a GARDEN God put Adam (man) in His garden (to grow):
He buried His treasure in the field (world/garden?) and the field is "ripe for harvest" and the "angels are the reapers" etc
There is good seed sewn by the Son of Man and bad seed sewn by the wicked one, the enemy, the devil.
God, the Father, is the "true" husbandman (farmer, land worker).
Christ is the VINE, we are the Branches; TREES bearing good or bad FRUIT, etc, etc, etc,
How ironic that Christ was mistaken for the "gardener" at the tomb: :D
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She,
supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.[/list]
Christ told the thief that he would be WITH HIM in PARADISE.
This man Paul "knew" was caught up into PARADISE. (also called the "third heaven")
The Tree of Life is in the midst of the PARADISE OF GOD.
I see Paradise as the Kingdom of Heaven (or the Kingdom of God); where Christ IS. Where the Tree of Life IS.
And truly I see CHRIST as all of these things: The Tree of LIFE, the Book of LIFE, Eternal LIFE, the BEGINNING, the END, the SON (of God), the PROMISE (of God), the PARADISE (of God), to name only a few.
We will ALL be WITH HIM in Paradise!!
What am I missing here??
I was going to ask Ray directly, but decided not to since he said many times that he will not write on this until some time in the future, having other more important things to write about now.... so until then.... thought I would ask here...
Chrissie
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Great post Chrissie, I too have been wondering on these things, "spiritual with spiritual. Heres some other considerations I have thought on. We are Gods feild, His husbandry, His work as He works within us to both will and do His good pleasure. Garden of His delight perhaps? The Seed, His word planted in us will not return void but accomplish all that He desires and that we be perfected in His love.
Considering "paradise" in the verses you set out and being with Him in paradise we know it was not the death of the physical body needed to be "caught up" to it. To me its like our minds, these tombs needed to "be opened" by His Spirit to possibly "conceive" Gods thoughts which are "higher" then ours. So "Come up hither" is as the power or strength to "conceive" a thought of His. As Paul says, who knows that thoughts of God but Gods Spirit? But we have been given the Mind of Christ to "conceive" what is most inconceivable to "those who love Him". Love defines as being "obedient to His commands". Interestingly enough "these have a right to enter in" to the very paradise of God.
Heres some comparable places to "consider" some not having the words "tree of life" and others which do and I can see the "oneness" of us with Him in these things.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, "THERE" ye may be also[/u].
HE is "THE DESIRE" who "comes"
Prov 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: BUT WHEN "the desire" cometh, IT IS a tree of life.[/u]
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]
To overcomers
Rev 2:7 Rev 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is "in the midst of" the paradise of God.[/u]
Some did overcome
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[/u]
This is interesting
Prov 11:30 The fruit of "the righteous" IS a tree of life;...
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, THERE shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; "no more can ye", except ye abide in me.[/u]
Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue IS a tree of life[/u] (wholesome words of Christ)
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[/u]
Then notice this, interesting... an entrance is "ministered to one" only HE can open
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]
2Peter 1:1 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it "shall not be shut at all" by day: for there shall be no night there.[/u]
Darkness is "called night" in Genesis both used interchably
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:[/u]
And just as there is "no night" THERE and the gates are not shut BY DAY[/u] (HIM)
1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of "THE DAY": we are not of the night, "nor of darkness".
As a spiritual city, or house. Becoming the holy habitation of God. So that the "true Greater is HE" that is "within us" is greater then he who is in the world. We might be "in the world" but no longer of it anymore as we walk by His light, which is to walk in love, the evidence of God dwelling in us and with us. No night in the city being expressed in revelation and John in spiritual truths that become our reality in Christ.
Just a few verses I have thought on and was truly blessed of them.
Daniel
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This is Interesting Ray mentions this here
Quote:
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
This is not the paradise Ray describes to Scott.
It would be interested to see Rays response in Full to this.
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Garden of His delight perhaps?
Funny you should say that... know what Eden means??
Chrissie
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perhaps third heaven means complete?
perhaps paul saw heaven in its completeness
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I see it much that way, Daniel.
Entering into that city, that New Jerusalem, leaving the darkness (NIGHT) behind and entering into the "Day", being seated with Him... that where He is we may be also...etc, etc, etc.
Chrissie
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This is Interesting Ray mentions this here
Quote:
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
This is not the paradise Ray describes to Scott.
It would be interested to see Rays response in Full to this.
Hi mercie,
Yeah, I completely skimmed right OVER that part... missing it completely until I went back and re-read it. Maybe I SHOULD write to Ray, just for clarification on that?? As it seems to me that there is a reference to heaven in relation to paradise (as I stated in my first post)... I just didn't notice, at first, that he said there was none??
Chrissie
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perhaps third heaven means complete?
perhaps paul saw heaven in its completeness
Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!! :D
Chrissie
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only three hits Click Verse for Commentary Notes
Lu 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2Co 12:4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Re 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
which comes from:
Pardec TWOT - 1808
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
par-dace' Noun Masculine
Definition
park, preserve, enclosed garden,((( forest ))) :wink:
Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called (((trees)) of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
Eze 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].
sooooo much more to this
love ya's
euty
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perhaps third heaven means complete?
perhaps paul saw heaven in its completeness
Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!! :D
Chrissie
(http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif)
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Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
:wink:
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perhaps third heaven means complete?
perhaps paul saw heaven in its completeness
Certainly he "heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter".... must have been SOMETHING ELSE!! :D
Chrissie
(http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif)
Feeling a bit overwhelmed there, euty??? :o
Chrissie :D
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(http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif)[/quote]
Feeling a bit overwhelmed there, euty??? :o
Chrissie :D[/quote]
no, just like the lil purple guy
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he's making me sad! :( :D
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the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.[/list]
etc, etc, etc...
wonder what it means that
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and
Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. :lol: :lol: [/list]
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Hey, does not "come up hither" mean the same as ascend? Just curious because I don't know.
Then again doesnt ascend mean to come down?
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
He was the only one who came out from God, ever try to capture the mind spin on this? Of Him who ascended be it FIRST that he descended into the lower parts of the earth.
I'm having a brain fart
:lol:
Daniel
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yea if heaven isnt a physical place , what the heck is going on in these verses.... i havn't figured them out yet!
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Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart,
Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;[/list:u]
We need NOT ascend OR descend.... for the kingdom is WITHIN... He is NIGH, even in thy mouth and in thy heart.
Chrissie
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We need NOT ascend OR descend.... for the kingdom is WITHIN... He is NIGH, even in thy mouth and in thy heart.
Chrissie
Sound word Chrissie.
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Amen Chrissie, it speaks of "the wisdom" the descendth from above after the spiritual fruit it bears. Wouldn't that be Christ (the tree of life) in us? If the "Fruit" of the righteous, IS a tree of life and we cannot bear fruit of "ourselves" it seems so. None is good but God and God is love. The good fruit comes from abiding in Christ Him abiding in us that we bear fruit unto God. If a tree is "known by its fruit" then it is also known by its children, the children of the Kingdom. Would have to be the "manifestation of the Sons of God". Truth in us and us walking in the truth is walking in love. He gave us power "to become" and as He is so would we be "in the world".
Its more then geography here, these are spiritual words signified expressing spiritual truths. Thats how I'm seeing it right now.
Peace
Daniel
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(1Ki 8:30) And You shall listen to the supplication of Your servant, and of Your people Israel when they shall pray toward this place; yea, You shall listen in Your dwelling-place, in Heaven; and You shall hear and shall forgive.
(1Ki 8:34) then You shall hear in Heaven, and shall forgive the sin of Your people Israel, and shall bring them back to the land that You gave to their fathers.
(1Ki 8:39) then You shall hear in Heaven Your dwellingplace and shall forgive and shall act, and shall give to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You have known, You alone, the heart of all the sons of Adam),
(1Ki 8:43) You shall hear in Heaven, Your dwellingplace, and shall do according to all that the stranger calls to You for, so that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You like Your people Israel, and to know that Your name has been called on this house which I have built.
(Psa 29:9) The voice of Jehovah causes the does to calve; and He uncovers the forests. And in His temple it all is saying, Glory!
(Mal 3:1) Behold, I am sending My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And the Lord whom you are seeking shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says Jehovah of Hosts.
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are a temple of the living God, even as God said, "I will" dwell in them and "walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Lev. 26:12; Ezek. 37:27
(Rev 3:12) The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall not go out any more. And I will write the name of My God on him, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.
His dwelling place and temple... 8)
God bless,
Gary
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Good verses Gary!! :D
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(Rev 3:12) The one overcoming, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall not go out any more. And I will write the name of My God on him, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name.
His dwelling place and temple... 8)
God bless,
Gary
i jsut had a revalation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think lol
I don't know what im on too here, but i saw a connection.
Gen 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;
Gen 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Gen 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
Gen 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
Does anyone see anything i see, i think therse something here i could be completely wrong because im not even sure what i see but for some reason this came to mind as if there was a connection.
God bless,
Alex
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(Psa 74:19) Oh deliver not the soul of thy turtle-dove unto the wild beast: Forget not the life of thy poor for ever.
(Son 2:12) The flowers appear on the earth; The time of the singing of birds is come, And the voice of the turtle-dove is heard in our land;
(Son 2:13) The fig-tree ripeneth her green figs, And the vines are in blossom; They give forth their fragrance. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.
(Son 2:14) O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, In the covert of the steep place, Let me see thy countenance, Let me hear thy voice; For sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.
(Son 5:1) I am come into my garden, my sister, my bride: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk. Eat, O friends; Drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.
(Son 5:2) I was asleep, but my heart waked: It is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled; For my head is filled with dew, My locks with the drops of the night.
Beautiful stuff here, wow, glad you brought this up, Alex.
(Son 6:9) My dove, my undefiled, is but one; She is the only one of her mother; She is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and called her blessed; Yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.
(Mat 3:16) And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
(Luk 3:22) and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
This answers a question in another thread, about paradise and the garden. Interesting.
(Son 4:12) A garden shut up is my sister, my bride; A spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
(Son 5:1) I am come into my garden, my sister, my bride: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk. Eat, O friends; Drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.
Lots more here, for sure.
God bless,
Gary
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lol im happy i actualy said something useful :D
Btw, my parrellel was with what you had said above Orion, what i quoted you saying about revalations. Just incase you weren't sure exactly what i was saying :P
God bless,
ALex
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Alex, glad you said something. It's always good to learn new things from the word. Like hunting for buried treasure, never know what we will come across.
God is so good, He makes us seek and search, ask and be given, knock and it will be opened. Truly amazing.
God bless,
Gary
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acsend and descend dont mean up and down, the way we think.
there are unseen particals all around us :shock:
while heaven isnt physical it is LITERAL.
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Hi Ray, How are you? Christine here. I have a question (or comment) regarding an email that was posted recently in the forum about paradise and heaven.
In an exchange with Scot you said (bold are mine):
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
Doesn’t 2 Cor 12:2-4 refer to paradise as “the third heaven�?
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Not asking on an explanation of what/where is paradise, as I know you said this in not on the top of your priority list and you will write about it sometime in the future… just bringing this to your attention, as it drew some questions.
Thanks,
Christine
Dear Christine:
Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?
God be with you,
Ray
Hi Ray;
Sorry, I did not realize until now that you have answered my earlier email (copied below). I sent it from work so will not see the reply until I return to work on Monday.
But I just saw that it was posted on the forum.
You Said:
"Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?"
No, I do not think that the third heaven is a geographical location higher than the first and second heavens. However I do see it being higher (or "far above") all other heavens. But I see these as spiritual realms and not physical locations. With the third heaven (or Paradise of God) being where Christ is seated at the right hand of God and where we are seated with Him (spiritually speaking).
It is by and through the blood of Christ that we now have access to the Father and may "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may abtain mercy".
The veil has been rent and the heavens have been opened. I sort of see it at the Holy of Holies (or the Holiest Place), spiritually speaking...
Psa 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There are probably a lot more scriptures that I could point to but I'll just finish it up with these in Ephesians, as I see the "third heaven" as being "far above all principalities and power and might and dominion... ":
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I see the third heaven as "the heaven of heavens".... "far above all heavens".... where Christ ascended and where His throne is.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I wasn't trying to add confusion. I only asked because of my own confusion over your statement about paradise not being heaven or likened to heaven in the scriptures. That threw me off, based on 2 Cor 12:4 and the other verses that I mentioned, but specifically 2 Cor 12:4.
I see now that you agree that paradise is the third heaven? Or am I still confused?
Blessings,
Christine
Dear Christine:
When I said I would do a paper on this, I didn't mean now. I will not try to write my paper one section at a time in emails. Hope you understand. You could have quoted the nearly 700 Scriptures on heaven, and it still would not prove you point.
God be with you,
Ray
Christine feels insulted.... :cry: :cry:
Dear Ray,
As I said, I wasn't trying to get you to write a paper. Neither was I trying to prove a point, except that paradise is mentioned in the scriptures in relation to the third heaven (whatever and whereever that is).
Forgive the intrusion, I was merely trying to clear up what appeared to be a contradiction in what you said, as it caused some confusion.
Thank you for your time,
Christine
Then she ponders it somemore.... and feels like an even worse 'idiot'!! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hi Ray:
Christine again.
I think I just realized where I was reading this wrong... may I ask another question for further clarification to be sure?
You said:
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
When I read: "In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven?"
It sounded as if you were were saying that there was NO way in which the scriptures liken paradise to heaven... because of the statements that immediately preceeded that statement....
Now I am seeing (????) that you are asking "in what way DO the scriptures liken paradise to heaven?" (which is covered in the 2 Cor 12:4 - that I sent).
And 'this' is what you meant by "Exactly." ??
If so, then I think that does clear up the confusion.
Blessings,
Christine
I think that clears it up.... but I am still waiting on the reply....
Chrissie
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Alex, the next verse Gen. 8:12 says he sent the dove out and it did not return. I believe the next time in the scriptures that you see a dove lighting on something is at the baptism of Jesus.
Pretty interesting.
CIY
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Hi Ray, How are you? Christine here. I have a question (or comment) regarding an email that was posted recently in the forum about paradise and heaven.
In an exchange with Scot you said (bold are mine):
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
Doesn’t 2 Cor 12:2-4 refer to paradise as “the third heaven�?
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Not asking on an explanation of what/where is paradise, as I know you said this in not on the top of your priority list and you will write about it sometime in the future… just bringing this to your attention, as it drew some questions.
Thanks,
Christine
Dear Christine:
Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?
God be with you,
Ray
Hi Ray;
Sorry, I did not realize until now that you have answered my earlier email (copied below). I sent it from work so will not see the reply until I return to work on Monday.
But I just saw that it was posted on the forum.
You Said:
"Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?"
No, I do not think that the third heaven is a geographical location higher than the first and second heavens. However I do see it being higher (or "far above") all other heavens. But I see these as spiritual realms and not physical locations. With the third heaven (or Paradise of God) being where Christ is seated at the right hand of God and where we are seated with Him (spiritually speaking).
It is by and through the blood of Christ that we now have access to the Father and may "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may abtain mercy".
The veil has been rent and the heavens have been opened. I sort of see it at the Holy of Holies (or the Holiest Place), spiritually speaking...
Psa 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There are probably a lot more scriptures that I could point to but I'll just finish it up with these in Ephesians, as I see the "third heaven" as being "far above all principalities and power and might and dominion... ":
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I see the third heaven as "the heaven of heavens".... "far above all heavens".... where Christ ascended and where His throne is.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I wasn't trying to add confusion. I only asked because of my own confusion over your statement about paradise not being heaven or likened to heaven in the scriptures. That threw me off, based on 2 Cor 12:4 and the other verses that I mentioned, but specifically 2 Cor 12:4.
I see now that you agree that paradise is the third heaven? Or am I still confused?
Blessings,
Christine
Dear Christine:
When I said I would do a paper on this, I didn't mean now. I will not try to write my paper one section at a time in emails. Hope you understand. You could have quoted the nearly 700 Scriptures on heaven, and it still would not prove you point.
God be with you,
Ray
Christine feels insulted.... :cry: :cry:
Dear Ray,
As I said, I wasn't trying to get you to write a paper. Neither was I trying to prove a point, except that paradise is mentioned in the scriptures in relation to the third heaven (whatever and whereever that is).
Forgive the intrusion, I was merely trying to clear up what appeared to be a contradiction in what you said, as it caused some confusion.
Thank you for your time,
Christine
Then she ponders it somemore.... and feels like an even worse 'idiot'!! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hi Ray:
Christine again.
I think I just realized where I was reading this wrong... may I ask another question for further clarification to be sure?
You said:
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
When I read: "In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven?"
It sounded as if you were were saying that there was NO way in which the scriptures liken paradise to heaven... because of the statements that immediately preceeded that statement....
Now I am seeing (????) that you are asking "in what way DO the scriptures liken paradise to heaven?" (which is covered in the 2 Cor 12:4 - that I sent).
And 'this' is what you meant by "Exactly." ??
If so, then I think that does clear up the confusion.
Blessings,
Christine
I think that clears it up.... but I am still waiting on the reply....
Chrissie
Chrissie.
Im sure Ray will do a paper one day on it to clear it up.
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oh, come on :roll: ... I wasn't the ONLY one who thought Ray was saying that the scriptures DO NOT liken paradise to heaven was I?? :oops: :oops:
If so... surely no one else stepped up or waved any flags to say hey S-T-U-P-I-D you're reading that wrong!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can admit when I am wrong.... or being S-T-U-P-I-D. :o
Chrissie :D
(And one day I'll figure out where/what heaven is??? :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:)
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No your not alone Chrissie. I'd just prefer rather not express it. Being that difference in points of veiw really dont bother me. I agree with what you shared, I truly did. I get blessed by my own study and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, no one stands in that "holy place" but Him. It would be standing where one ought not in that regard.
I'd say be blessed sister with the insight God has given you, it blesses me immensely and I know others would say the same. I say this "to build up" (not tear down) the confidence that should be placed in that anointing to teach you, its true and is no lie. Dont let anyone steal your confidence in "that". The apostles spoke of "that" and "to that". If that trust in what the holy Spirit is showing you is broken, who else would you rely upon except that which we are not to, namely man amen?
So I encourage you, study to show yourself approved unto God not men. Thats what we all should be doing.
Peace and Gods rich blessings upon you sister
Daniel
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oh, come on :roll: ... I wasn't the ONLY one who thought Ray was saying that the scriptures DO NOT liken paradise to heaven was I?? :oops: :oops:
If so... surely no one else stepped up or waved any flags to say hey S-T-U-P-I-D you're reading that wrong!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can admit when I am wrong.... or being S-T-U-P-I-D. :o
Chrissie :D
(And one day I'll figure out where/what heaven is??? :oops: :lol: :lol: :lol:)
Chrissie
I agree and posted after you, and your far From Stupid.
You just put the keys to the Post , it could have easily been mine to Him.
I feel for you .
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No Chrikstine, that is not what I meant at all. Sorry. I'll explain in the future in an article.
God be with you,
Ray
Chrissie
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Chrissiela, not sure if you caught a previous post, concerning the garden and these verses. Maybe they can help you.
(Son 5:1) I have come into My garden, My sister, My spouse; I have gathered My myrrh with My spice. I have eaten My honeycomb with My honey; I have drunk My wine with My milk. Eat and drink, O friends; yea, drink fully, beloved ones.
(Son 5:2) I sleep, but my heart is awake. It is the sound of my Beloved that knocks, saying, Open to Me, My sister, My love, My dove, My undefiled. For My head is filled with dew, My locks with the drops of the night.
(Son 6:1) Where has your Beloved gone, most beautiful among women? Where has your Beloved turned? For we seek Him along with you.
(Son 6:2) My Beloved has gone down to His garden, to the terraces of spices, to feed in the gardens and to gather lilies.
(Son 6:3) I am my Beloved's, and my Beloved is mine. He feeds among the lilies.
(Son 6:4) O My love, you are as beautiful as Tirzah, as lovely as Jerusalem, awesome as bannered armies.
(Son 6:5) Turn away your eyes from Me, because they have overcome Me. Your hair is like a flock of goats that lie down from Gilead.
(Son 6:6) Your teeth are like a flock of ewes which come up from the washing place, of which they all are bearing twins, and a bereaved one is not among them.
(Son 6:7) Your temples behind your veil are like a piece of pomegranate.
(Son 6:8) Sixty of them are queens, and eighty concubines, and virgins without number.
(Son 6:9) But My dove, My perfect one is one alone. She is the only one to her mother; she is the choice of the one who bore her. The daughters saw her and called her blessed; the queens and the concubines saw her, and they praised her.
Not sure if this helps, but if it does, let me in on it. :lol: :lol:
God bless,
Gary
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Hi Chrissie,
I do not think anyone wants you to jump off of a bridge, but I do have a question, who has denied you any right to present scripture in dispute of statements made on Bible Truths?
This is quite an accusation, maybe you intended it as a joke, but take into consideration new people coming to this Forum because of what they read on Bible Truths and the first post they read is yours.
If anyone at all has denied you the right to post a scripturally sound rebuttel please let me or any other moderator know, this is a serious accusation and I will not be a party to anyone standing in the way of doing what the Bereans did, check the Word for themselves.
If we are guilty of that, I am gone!
Joe
It's not an accusation Joe. :shock:
I'll delete it from my post.
(PM to follow)
Chrissie
PS (edited in - for the benefit of anyone who DID read the post before I removed most of it)
I was not trying to "rebut" Ray. I thought I AGREED with him, until I read his statement to Scot, that I found confusing/contradictory in light of 2 Cor 12:2-4. I was trying to get clarification, ONLY. I'm sorry I didn't :oops: , but maybe someone else did. I wasn't making fun of anyone other than MYSELF. I can't imagine anyone thought, or would think, that I was actually going to go out and jump off of a bridge. :roll:
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Thanks Gary,
I think maybe this isnt the place for me to study this... But I appreciate the input. Any new 'revelations' and I'll be sure to pm you. :lol: :lol:
You do likewise! :wink:
Blessings,
Chrissie