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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: eggi on April 03, 2011, 08:18:21 PM
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Hello all!
These latest studies that Ray has done are really inspiring, and they are so deep. At times I feel it's hard to follow what Ray is saying because of the magnitude of the subject, and I need to pay close attention and read/watch a section several times to be sure that I catch it all (I'm not even sure that I caught it all...). The questions he is raising now are really big, and yet, as usual, he is able to answer them in "layman's terms". A question such as "Who is God?" is so fundamental, and we have only scratched the surface of them.
In the last months, I've been doing a little thinking and studying on my own. A couple of months ago I ended up in a futile discussion with some JW's who came to my door. Their Watchtower doctrine says that Jesus is NOT God. Also, to steer clear of any reference to Jesus as God they always insert "Jehovah" (who they say is the Father), even though the Greek says "theos" or "kyrios". This discussion made me look closer at the question: Is Jesus God?
I found a connection in Revelation and Isaiah that to me shows with certainty that the Holy Scriptures teach that Jesus is God. However this certainty raises other questions...
Here goes, of course you will correct me if this is all wrong:
We all understand that it is CHRIST JESUS who speaks to John in Revelation, so the following is spoken by Christ, and He explains about Himself:
1. And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things said the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; (Rev. 2:8)
Again, this is clearly Christ speaking, as the Father has never been DEAD and then ALIVE again.
2. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Rev. 22:13)
The "first and the last" is not only that, but also "the beginning and the end", and the "Alpha and Omega". Although these are basically three ways of saying the same thing, it is important in this line of reasoning that we see the connection between these titles which are mentioned in the above verses. The one who is the first and the last (and Alpha and Omega, and the beginning and the end) is the same who was dead and is alive. This is Jesus Christ.
3. And he said to me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev. 21:6-7)
The Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end (and the first and the last) will be God to the one who overcomes all things. If Jesus is not God, then how can He be "his God"? We notice that Jesus didn't say: My father will be his God, and he will be His son... No, Jesus is talking about Himself as God.
Here are two other scriptures from Isaiah which speak of "the first and the last":
"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. (Isa. 48:12)
"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. (Isa. 44:6)
So, if the "first and the last" in the Old Testament is the same "first and the last" as in the New Testament, then there is no God apart from Him. So is Jesus the only God? Apparently not:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)
But are there any other indications that Jesus is God? Yes, I think so, let's see:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev. 1:8)
The "Alpha and Omega", the "beginning and the ending", is the one "which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty".
And I heard the angel of the waters say, You are righteous, O Lord, which are, and were, and shall be (see Rev. 1:8 to see that this is Christ), because you have judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are your judgments. (Rev. 16:5-7)
Who is doing the judging of the world? Why, Jesus Christ: Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:31) So the Lord God Almighty is judging.
Now the question remains; There is ONE GOD, the Father, but Jesus Christ is also God (as I concluded after the reasoning above and also from everything Ray has written about this!). As Ray has said; God is the family name, and God is an expanding family. The family includes the Father and Christ, but why then did Paul write: There is ONE God, THE FATHER. Doesn't this exclude everyone else from being God? No, as Ray has said in his message from April 2nd: The fact that Jesus and His Father are "ONE GOD," is only part of this enigma.
I wonder if the word "in" is giving us a closer indication as to what Paul meant:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him (family again); and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)
So all things are OF the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and we are IN HIM (THE ONE GOD), and we are in Him BY Jesus Christ (who is also part of the family of God).
Does anyone else see something hidden in this verse, something which relates to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father, the ONE GOD?
When God wills, we will understand this more fully!
The Father is God, Jesus is God - and: Even Universal Reconciliation becomes an axiomatic certainty and not even debatable when we understand just who "the ONLY TRUE GOD" (John 17:3) really is!
God bless you all!
Eirik
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Does anyone else see something hidden in this verse, something which relates to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father, the ONE GOD?
Excellent, excellent study Eirik...very well spoken. :)
While I don't have much to add to answer this question, I remember one thing Ray said that has stuck with me:
Excerpt from March 2011 bible study 'Is Jesus God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):
I think we should do away or should have done away… well it’s pretty hard to do it now. But we should have never got in the habit of translating in English Yahweh and Elohim and Adonia, we should have never translated it god. God is a pagan heathen title. Why should we call the God of creation after some pagan title? Why should we? After all we know He’s not a pagan god, yet we’re strapped with the idea that the word Elohim is translated the true God and the god of the pagans. God of creation that was Elohim and Mohoc of the Canaanites that was elohim too.
I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What’s wrong with that? To me that’s what God is. Takes care of the ‘one,’ family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.
Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that’s a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What’s wrong with that?
To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation.
We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.
You can have an orchestra, one orchestra, 150 members. It doesn’t mean since you have more than one you have more than one orchestras? The accusation is, ‘if there is more than one talking then you are saying there is more than one God.’ No I’m not and neither is the Scripture saying that.
I think when Ray finally is ready to do this study, in as much detail as God gives, it will turn how we use the word 'God' on it's head. For so long, we have thought of God as a single, omnipotent being. I think what God really is, is an omnipotent family. A growing family in which we will be gathered into, as Christ is.
Jesus always spoke of 'the one true God' [John 17:3] as Father. A Father is the head of the household or family [Eph 5:23]. I think the unity Paul says we are to keep [Eph 4:3] is the family unit of God. Like Ray says in his Trinity paper heading: Is God a closed Trinity or an expanding family? I think it is more of a family than any of us have realized. Can't wait for the next study/paper!
Marques
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I think when Ray finally is ready to do this study, in as much detail as God gives, it will turn how we use the word 'God' on it's head. For so long, we have thought of God as a single, omnipotent being. I think what God really is, is an omnipotent family. A growing family in which we will be gathered into, as Christ is.
Jesus always spoke of 'the one true God' [John 17:3] as Father. A Father is the head of the household or family [Eph 5:23]. I think the unity Paul says we are to keep [Eph 4:3] is the family unit of God. Like Ray says in his Trinity paper heading: Is God a closed Trinity or an expanding family? I think it is more of a family than any of us have realized. Can't wait for the next study/paper!
Marques
I seem to think along these lines too, Marques. But of course, we need to have all the scriptures to back it up! Again, patience is needed as we pray and expect what God (should I use that word ?) reveals to us.
God bless you,
Eirik
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Eggi...If I were to "tackle" JW's, I would go to John 14 and John 15 as they are "peppered" with references where Jesus is trying
to express Himself to His disciples. Also, Jesus is very explicit about Himself with "the woman at the well" John 4:34 and John 7:14-52 with His explanation to the Jews re: Who He was and His relationship to the Father.
At 12 years of age, jesus told His "parents" that He was "about his FATHER'S business". The baptism of Jesus "this is my beloved SON in whom I am well pleased".
Only God can open their (and our) eyes to the truth of His word. Remember: It is NOT your responsibility to "gather the lost sheep"--but rather, that of the shepherd.
I am sure the moderators will direct you even more specifically--as they often do me!
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Good thread guys!!!
Hey Eggi, hope married life is treating you well!!!
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Good thread guys!!!
Hey Eggi, hope married life is treating you well!!!
Hi Gina! Oh yes, it sure is! It's so wonderful to be married! :D
Eirik
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Eph 3 : 20 Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to (carry out His purpose and ) do SUPERABUNDANTLY, FAR OVER AND ABOVE ALL THAT WE (DARE) ASK OR THINK [INFINITELY BEYOND OUR HIGHTEST PRAYERS, DESIRES, THOUGHTS, HOPES OR DREAMS] ~
To Him be Glory, in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever....AMEN!
God Bless us, every one.
Arc
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Eggi,
Expanding family indeed, 4 instances out of 60 different translations wher the correct word (Title is used).
Psalm 82:6
(KJV+TVM) I have saidH559 [HGH8804], Ye are godsH430; and all of you are childrenH1121 of the most HighH5945.
(CLV) I Myself have said:you are elohim, And sons of the Supreme are all of you."
(IAV) I have said, Ye are elohim; and all of you are children of the El Elyon.
John 10:34
(IAV) Y'shuw`a answered them, Is it not written in your Torah, I said, Ye are elohim, (judges)?
(Etheridge) Jeshu saith to them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are Alohee?
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oh the things i could tell you guys, my forum family, about what the Almighty is starting to open my eyes to regarding the things ray spoke of in the mobile march bible study!
great thread eirik! and very good to hear that you believe married life is wonderful. it is indeed.
awesome responses from the members too. just awesome!
claudia
p.s. i have truly missed this website and this forum, after being out of pocket for a little over a week.
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GREAT post George! ....Oh and Eggie in Norway...it is lovely to see you again bro' 8) :)
Deb
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I love where this study is headed! :D
Antaiwan
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Hi Deb, always checking in, just not saying much, thanks you.
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Thanks everyone for the topic and comments.
re: the subject line; NO I am not afraid of God.
I know that I will sink to my knees in awe and fear whenever God needs to firmly corrects me,
but I don't think of it as fear, more like being thrown into the river by my daddy knowing that I shall survive.
Meanwhile today is not the day of the swimming lesson, so I am calm and contented.
I think and of course I won't know until I am tested, that I have come to trust my God a little more than I first did.
Bob
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One thought came to mind for me as I read the contributions and I don't recall where Ray may have mentioned it.
If the creator is the Father of Jesus then didn't Ray say that the Father had to exist first?
If Jesus came from the Father didn't the Father then create Jesus?
If the creator had no beginning and has no end then it seems "to my understanding"
that the whole future family of the Creator proceeded from a source that has "always" existed.
If we who are to become the sons of the Father/Creator and to become a part of the family of "God",
are all from the Father and all came "out of the Father" that leaves us with the following.
The creator is unique in the sense that the creator had no source, no beginning.
If we accept that premise, then the rest of us are all different in that we all depend upon our Father for
our continued existence.
Meanwhile the Father depends upon no one and no other entity for His existence.
In like manner Jesus, the only begotten of the Father/Creator was and remains forever unique.
None of us were begotten by the Father in the womb of our mothers.
Yes, the Father provided the means for us to be conceived, but by means of our human fathers. (Adam, Eve different)
Therefore Jesus shall always be in many ways superior to all of us, no matter how long we live and exist
as "sons" of God or sons of the Father/Creator. Jesus shall always be the "first born", an office that none
of us shall ever ? attain (as far as I understand now) We shall always be subject to our Elder brother.
Just thought to add a little to further stimulate the discussion.
Thank you for any advice or correction.
Indiana Bob
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Hi Bob, nice!!! Have you ever tried to mentally grasp that 'no beginning and no end". It's unfathomable!!! But, a circle has no beginning or no end. Maybe that's why all those references to the "circle of love or prayer circles or in the circle of love, etc". It suggests unbroken relationship. Our part in it would be to keep that chain unbroken with God's grace of course. A Family circle.
There is a book out by a female Jewish Rabbi who explains how relationships in Judaism are connected to this very thought of God as Father. I forget her name and was going to get it at one time but never did. To the Orthodox Jew family is the pinnacle of the physical. That must be why so much lineage is recorded among themselves.
Just musings from an average mind.
love, judy
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Great study! :)
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Hi Bob,
God the Father is most definitely Creator of Jesus Christ.
Rev 3:14 ...These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
But with the creation of Jesus Christ then all the rest of creating the universe was turned over to the Son.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
v. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Just want to bring this out from the conference "The Father's Will.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html ----------------------
Jesus Christ is the GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. Jesus Christ WAS God and Jesus Christ IS God. And yes, Jesus always had and still has a God (Eph 1:17). But the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, has NO God. It was Jesus Christ (Elohim - US) who created the heavens and the earth and humanity, “…in OUR image.”
In Rev. 19:16 it says Christ had, “on His thigh He has a name written,” the Word of God.
There’s no getting around it, the Logos, the Word is Jesus Christ.
The creator of heaven and earth is Jesus Christ.
The creator of the human race is Jesus Christ.
No man has ever seen God, only Jesus Christ.
v
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
v
When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator.
v
I have to do the will of the Father. So whatever He did was the will of the Father. And the one who did the will of the Father is the one who really loved the Father of humanity, Jesus Christ, the creator of heaven and earth and the human race.
v
He is the Firstfruit of those who slept, He’s the first of everything, that His name may be first preeminent above any and every and all, because He is the Creator. He emptied Himself, became the Savior of the world. He will forever be the preeminent One, in the whole universe.
v
John 5:30 - “I seek not Mine Own will, but the Will of My Father.”
This is the Creator of the whole universe talking here, who made the constellations, the galaxies, stars, the milky Way, He made the mountains, and the oceans too. But He can do nothing, He got it all from the Father. God is from the Father, He got life from the Father. Now if you don’t exist except by the Father, how can you take credit for anything?
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Eirik
Wonderful post, just like you, I'm trying to sum up Mr. Smith's teaching. I read this teaching about 3 times now and still uncertain, I'm going to drift away from your post about "Are you afraid of God? / Is Jesus God? / Who is God?"
Kat
You always inspire and teach me with your post, like I said before "You're Blessed" with the word.
Please help me with this, I could have missed something. "WHO DID JACOB SEE" God The Father or Lord God?
These are quotes from Mr. Smith's teachings:
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face and my life is preserved.
How about that? God told Moses he could not see His face and live. But Jacob said, I saw Him face to face and I‘m still here to tell about it.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
So Moses was told that he couldn’t see His face and live and Jacob said I saw His face and I lived. What’s going on here?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time…
“No man has seen God,” not just those sitting in front of Him, “NO MAN has seen God AT ANY TIME.” Now we’ve pretty much nailed it, right? Not just those that I was talking to the other day, “but no man at any time…”
v. 18 …the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
So “no man at any time,” okay? No man has seen Him at any time.
Now when Jesus says “God,” He means the Father. When He said “no man has seen God,” He means God the Father.
As in it was God the Father that gave Christ works to do…
It was God the Father that sent Jesus…
It was God the Father which you have neither heard His voice…
It was God the Father that no man hath seen at any time….
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Hey!
I "THINK" I've got it, It must be obvious that Jacob saw Lord GOD.
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
Thank you Kitty KAT
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Hi Gordon,
Yes Jesus Christ is the Lord God of the Old Testament, but He emptied Himself to be born into the flesh of a man after these accounts in the OT.
Php 2:6 who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Now when Moses ask the Lord that he wanted to see Him, Ray brought out in the Bible study that Moses had ask to see the Lord's "glory."
Exo 33:18 And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
Here is what God answered to Moses.
Exo 33:20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live."
I'm wondering if that is the difference right there. Moses wanted to see God in His "glory" and His answer to that was you cannot do it and live.
In the account of Jacob wrestlng with God, it states.
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone. And a MAN wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Also "the Lord" appeared to quite a few others in the Old Testament as well.
Exo 33:10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door.
v. 11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
Gen 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."
Gen 26:24 And the LORD appeared to him (Isaac) the same night and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham's sake."
1Sam 3:21 Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
All I can think of is when He, the Lord God, appeared to these people it was in some form other than His glorious state of being or these people could not have seen Him and lived. I would think He could appear as he did to the disciples after His resurrection, in the form of a man. But I guess we will just have to wait until Ray comes out with a detailed explanation.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat & Others,
I have wrestled with this quite a bit over the past few days. I was brought up being taught about the Oneness of God. Jesus was God in flesh, and that it was Jesus' humanity (flesh) that was praying to His Spirit in the garden and on the cross. It was also taught that His humanity was the Son of God, but His Spirit was God. I don't want to be guilty of "putting any other gods" before Him, so this has really been getting to me since I read "Is Jesus God?"
Something that really confuses me is if no man has seen or heard the Father, then who was speaking at the baptism of Jesus? Surely, Jesus wasn't doing a ventriloquist act? I don't mean that out of disrespect. That's the one thing that really throws a monkey wrench in it all.
I did get a little inspiration a few moments ago while in prayer, Jesus is the Word of God. I mean the actual, spiritual, Word of God. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Suddenly, a bunch of verses made since. How "The Word was with God and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh" or "Beside me, there is none" and "I myself cannot do anything except by the Father" and even "My Word will not return to me void (Jesus being the Savior of ALL)."
Your voice is you, but it can't do anything without you kind of thing. You communicate through your voice.
But the baptism still makes me scratch my head.
I think it is through a glass darkly yet, but it gave me something to munch on - that's for sure.
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Hi John,
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me...
So what Jesus said is true; a being, the Father sent Him. You don't send yourself, the Father (one being) sent (another being) Jesus Christ. Also Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself. Jesus spoke of His Father often, He was not speaking about Himself.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
But no doubt most get confused when Christ said "believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me" (John 14:11), this does not mean they are one being. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that made them ONE, just like we too have the Holy Spirit indwelling that gives us oneness with Christ and the Father.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
This is a complicated topic, just keep reading and studying and slowly but surely things will start falling into place like the pieces of a puzzle.
Something that really confuses me is if no man has seen or heard the Father, then who was speaking at the baptism of Jesus?
John 5:37 ...You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."
Here is an email on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ----
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him." The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message. Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
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I must say, Kat, you have a gift. That does make a WHOLE lot more sense. Light bulb yet again :)
EDIT:
I have just one more question then, and I think I have the answer, but I want to be sure. When we pray, should it be to Jesus or to the Father or both? It would seem that it should be to Jesus because "No man comes to the Father but [through] Me (Christ)." Wouldn't that also include prayer?
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John Michael...In the model prayer that Jesus gave the disciples when they asked "teach me to pray" Jesus said "Our FATHER who art in heaven..." so I would assume that we are to pray to the Father- though Jesus in the intercessor (mediator) between God and man. The
Ho;y Spirit , then puts our thoughts and words, to the father in a language better (more perfectly) than ours--"with groanings we can not utter".
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Is it only a prayer when we first say...Dear Father/Jesus, please.....???
I assume all my thoughts are prayers and kinda just talk like to a friend.
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gmik...if we are instructed to "pray without ceasing", I think you are more right than wrong
in assuming a "running dialogue" with God throughout the day. What a wonderful thought!
Picturing a running dialogue with God all day should sure help in the idea of purifying our thoughts, however, I guess that's the case ANYWAY with the Holy Spirit in us!
Enjoy your comments.
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Is it only a prayer when we first say...Dear Father/Jesus, please.....???
I assume all my thoughts are prayers and kinda just talk like to a friend.
Not at all. :) Kind of like that old song, "Jesus on the mainline, tell him what you want..." I think of it that way. God knows my thoughts, and this past week especially, my thoughts are always on Him. I see that as prayer. When I feel led to ask for something, I'll say the "Dear Father" or "Dear Lord." Otherwise, I'm just talking as you said, "to a friend." Feels really good to know He's there. :)
As a side note: it really, really is a big let down to hear "Christian" songs now. There are so many doctrines of Babylon in them.
"People get Ready...Jesus is Coming" by Crystal Lewis. Secret Rapture. Trash.
"Heaven is Counting on You" by Ray Boltz. Free Will. Trash.
Anything by Carman. Trinity/Free Will/Hell/Secret Rapture. Trash. Trash. Trash.
"Thank You" by Ray Boltz. Materialistic Heaven. Trash.
and on, and on, and on the list goes.
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Hi guys,
In John 20, didn't Jesus tell Mary not to touch his resurrected body just after he had risen, (why I wonder!? What was happening to it, what form was his body in). And then sometime later didn't Thomas stick his finger in our Lord. Why coudn't Mary touch Christ but Thomas could? Whatever happened to Christ's bodily form inbetween Mary seeing Jesus and Thomas touching him.
As far as I know in the Old Testament, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year (where the Ark of the Covenant was), to the mercy seat of God, to atone for the sins of the people. To do this, he had to be specially prepared. After this special purification, he could not have been touched by anyone prior to entering the Holy of Holies to make atonement for the people.
This is a physical type of Jesus Christ appearing before God the Father and being accepted as the complete sacrifice for human sin and being inducted into the office of our High Priest in Heaven.
In like manner, Jesus could not have even been touched by any human, including Mary, before this took place, or He could not have been accepted as our sacrifice for sin. But Jesus could not surely have stood in front of himself to be accepted by himself, could he!? We are also told that Christ was ressurected by God. So I can see how Jesus is representative of God and co-equal in authority as he holds God's sceptre but he also hands the reconcilliated human race plus all things in creation unto God so God mat be seen as ALL-IN-LL (1 Cor 15:28).
Don't know if any of that monologue helped anyone get another angle on Eriik's excellent post or if I was just wandering of topic.
God's will be done ;D.
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Hi guys,
In John 20, didn't Jesus tell Mary not to touch his resurrected body just after he had risen, (why I wonder!? What was happening to it, what form was his body in). And then sometime later didn't Thomas stick his finger in our Lord. Why coudn't Mary touch Christ but Thomas could? Whatever happened to Christ's bodily form inbetween Mary seeing Jesus and Thomas touching him.
As far as I know in the Old Testament, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies once a year (where the Ark of the Covenant was), to the mercy seat of God, to atone for the sins of the people. To do this, he had to be specially prepared. After this special purification, he could not have been touched by anyone prior to entering the Holy of Holies to make atonement for the people.
This is a physical type of Jesus Christ appearing before God the Father and being accepted as the complete sacrifice for human sin and being inducted into the office of our High Priest in Heaven.
In like manner, Jesus could not have even been touched by any human, including Mary, before this took place, or He could not have been accepted as our sacrifice for sin. But Jesus could not surely have stood in front of himself to be accepted by himself, could he!? We are also told that Christ was ressurected by God. So I can see how Jesus is representative of God and co-equal in authority as he holds God's sceptre but he also hands the reconcilliated human race plus all things in creation unto God so God mat be seen as ALL-IN-LL (1 Cor 15:28).
Don't know if any of that monologue helped anyone get another angle on Eriik's excellent post or if I was just wandering of topic.
God's will be done ;D.
That's not exactly true Jeetkunejimi. Here are a few email replies from Ray explaining the 'touch me not' statements from Jesus after His resurrection:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3909.msg29873.html#msg29873):
Dear Serena:
It was NOT the gardener. At first they "thought" it was the gardener, but it really was Jesus, and Mary knew that it was Jesus when she said: "Rabboni: which is to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, touch Me not...." (Luke 20:16 & 17). My King James Margin says for "touch"--"Do not CLING to Me." They WERE touching Him--they were HANGING ON TO HIM AND WOULDN'T LET HIM GO. Matt. 28:9 explains it further: "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET, and worshipped Him."
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5343.msg42454.html#msg42454):
Dear DAnte: It isn't that Jesus didn't want them to "touch" Him, for they DID "touch" him: "And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET, and worshiped Him." (Matt. 28:9)
This is the very same even that took place in John 20:17, where Jesus said: "Touch me not..." The word touch means to "Cling." Jesus didn't want them to KEEP HOLDING HIM, as they did not want to let him go. Not that they couldn't give him a little touch on the arm or something.
God be with you,
Ray
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I wonder if the word "in" is giving us a closer indication as to what Paul meant:
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him (family again); and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)
So all things are OF the ONE GOD, THE FATHER, and we are IN HIM (THE ONE GOD), and we are in Him BY Jesus Christ (who is also part of the family of God).
Does anyone else see something hidden in this verse, something which relates to the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father, the ONE GOD?
1 Cor. 8:6 (WNT) "yet *we* have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist."
The WNT, to me, puts it in a clearer way.
Eph 4:5 (WNT) There is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 (WNT) and one God and Father of all, who rules over all, acts through all, and dwells in all.