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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Oblivion582 on July 17, 2007, 01:03:14 AM
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OK, so for me the whole "Law vs Grace" is quite confusing. After we repent in our heart, for our lustful eyes, offending hands, condeming feet, etc. (all sins) we are forgiven, and no longer have to worry about gehana fire, right?
I repent for the lust, the pride, lies, etc. that is in my heart...but I still fall prey to them. When I go to the gym all I see is attractive girls everywhere, and then lust enters and rules my heart and eyes again. But am I under grace now? Can I rest in God's love knowing that I still find pleasure and delight in the evil in my flesh? The "once saved, always saved" doctrine sounds so awesome and wonderful, and living under grace seems to say "hey, you're good now, you don't have to follow the law anymore, relax".
But does it make sense? Even though I ask God to forgive me for all my sins...I turn around and do it again! So then I ask for forgiveness again...and what do you know, I give in again. Sometimes it gets to a point where I just don't care that much and willfully sin. Actually, most of the sins I commit are my willing to them...and sometimes not.
Can somebody enlighten me about this law/grace thing? I wanna do right...but then, I DON'T wanna do right...because I still enjoy sin...even though I've repented/asked forgiveness.
(by the way, I come from a "once saved, HARDLY saved" background that says "if you cuss and then get hit by a car and die, you go to hell forever - which is crap I know)
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Hi Oblivion,
Here is an email that I think will help answer your question.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2465.0.html --------------------
Dear Garrett:
Yours is a common frustration. Many write me with similar struggles
with the flesh after coming into a knowledge of the Truth. I did the
same. I left my First Love and went back into the world, all the while
knowing that I couldn't conquor my flesh. I was so happy for what I
'preceived to be "greasy grace." Thank God for grace, because I knew
I wasn't going to be saved without it.
I still believe that that part of it is true (about saved by grace only), but
I also know that it is possible when God gets ready, to conquor your
major sins so that sin no longer "reigns over you." You will not be totally
perfect and mature, but you will not be giving into every pull of the flesh,
for sexual gratification, lust for money, power, good looks, eternal youth,
perfect health, interesting job, travel and excitement, etc., etc., etc. You
will learn to enjoy the simple pleasure of life like, breathing, sleeping,
walking, talking to your wife, eating a pizza, and going to bed early on a
Saturday night.
God will make you really WANT to stop sinning, long before you will
ACTUALLY stop sinning. It's part of the struggle; part of the good
fight of faith; part of overcoming the flesh. Don't become discouraged, as
God WILL SEE YOUR THROUGH!
God be with you,
Ray
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God will make you really WANT to stop sinning, long before you will
ACTUALLY stop sinning.
God be with you,
Ray
So darn true! I'm with you Oblivion. Sometimes I get so frustrated with myself I want to give up but I know I don't have a choice in the matter. I often turn my frustration into a lesson of patience. I realize this is part of the process and keep hoping that one day I'll wake up and know that I will no longer do this or that that I currently cannot control and stand myself for doing. Just know you are definately not alone in this regard.
Mark
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Hey,
I'm with you too! I get so worn out with my sin, and I don't feel like I have any choice. I can add that I think about the scripture that says if your hand offends you cut it off, and I reason, well what am I supposed to do if my whole life offends me. I do believe God has a purpose in our struggle. I will echo what Mark said. You are not alone.
Steve
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So, I guess not one is without sin.
Most in this world are unaware of their sin.
A great gift we have been given is to be able to recognize sin, so that we can work it out with our Father in heaven, that we might receive the greatest reward of all.
We do this through faith, cause grace will not save us . Since without faith we have not grace. Both of which we receive freely.
Is that about it ?
Orlando
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Hi Orlando,
Again I have found a couple of emails to help explain this :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1710.0.html ---------------------
Faith is the assurance that God's Word is Truth and that God will do all that He has promised. This assurance (faith) is a GIFT of God and cannot be obtained by any human endeavor (Eph. 2:8-9). Reading and hearing the Scriptures can increase your faith, BUT ONLY BECAUSE GOD SUPERNATURALLY GIVES YOU THAT FAITH AND ASSURANCE, as you read and hear. Through faith you will both know God's will and live God's will. You must go to God for faith--there is no other source of true spiritual faith and assurance of God's trustworthiness.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2538.0.html ----------------
I have taught for many years now that grace is both a noun and a verb. As a noun it is the state of being blessed and gifted with favor from God. This is not anything that one can earn or deserve. But grace is also used as a verb, in that it does something: "For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world" ( Titus 2:11-12).
The word translated "teaching" means, to learn, educate, chasten, punish, etc., the one being graced so that he will "DENY" the lusts of the flesh and live godly. And so, if one does not have these fruits of the spirit in their lives, it is proof that they are NOT graced of God. See also Eph. 2:8-10--"For by GRACE are you saved through faith...notof works...for we are HIS achievement, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS...."
Works do not save us, BUT...........they are a necessary by-product of God's spirit and grace working in us.
God be with you,
Ray
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Thanks Kat
I believe that supports what I noted , and if we endure to the end, we can share in the promise.
Orlando
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Orlando,
Grace does save us, though. The Lake of Fire will be full of grace.
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I don't know what to say anymore, besides i feel you. I'm an extremely raunchy person who's beginning to lose hope. Galatians 5:5 - For we through the Spirit (i believe this is speaking of through THE WORD John 6:63) wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.I've been seeking and searching for so long through the Word, that it's kind of discouraging to still have these same old evil desires popping up. I haven't acted out on any of them in years due to for some reason not being able to. But, the desires are still here tormenting the hell out of me. I know the fulfillment of them isn't the answer, but is living like this (in torment) the answer? It's keeping me depressed, and it feels like something on the inside of me is under attack. I keep hoping that it's God pruning me (John 15:2, Hebrews 12:4-13). Everyday has been hell for me lately. I mean it's very dark. I don't care how sunny it is outside, it's dark. I hope God will just take me. I've experienced that deep down peace and satisfaction that Ray speaks of, but where does it go. Am i bipolar?
Keep me in you alls prayers. I feel isolated and have no one to talk to. These are very dark days for me. I just want to disappear, and i wish it was like i never was. I've got these little ones to think about though. I'm so ashamed of this letter.
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I don't know what to say anymore, besides i feel you. I'm an extremely raunchy person who's beginning to lose hope. Galatians 5:5 - For we through the Spirit (i believe this is speaking of through THE WORD John 6:63) wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.I've been seeking and searching for so long through the Word, that it's kind of discouraging to still have these same old evil desires popping up. I haven't acted out on any of them in years due to for some reason not being able to. But, the desires are still here tormenting the hell out of me. I know the fulfillment of them isn't the answer, but is living like this (in torment) the answer? It's keeping me depressed, and it feels like something on the inside of me is under attack. I keep hoping that it's God pruning me (John 15:2, Hebrews 12:4-13). Everyday has been hell for me lately. I mean it's very dark. I don't care how sunny it is outside, it's dark. I hope God will just take me. I've experienced that deep down peace and satisfaction that Ray speaks of, but where does it go. Am i bipolar?
Keep me in you alls prayers. I feel isolated and have no one to talk to. These are very dark days for me. I just want to disappear, and i wish it was like i never was. I've got these little ones to think about though. I'm so ashamed of this letter.
Is that an up to date email?
Mark
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This letter is for Bradigans:
You don't want to leave this life with this attitude. I know very little about illnesses of the Psyche, accept that I have some of them. I don't know whether you or I are bipolar or what. If you were, then you would have to have extremes on both ends like I do. Surely there are things that make you happy, right. Focus on them. I try to do that myself. Do it for yourself as well as for "the little ones". If you are being destroyed by the devil, it's God's purpose at this time. Things will get better for you when you believe this. And don't be ashamed, you're not alone in your lusts. Not acting on them is a start. Ask God to do your works but do not ask or wish Him to take your life. You're not ready.
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I have two kids number three on the way with this woman i'm living with now. I also have three kids with three other women outside of this one. One of the reasons I left the organized church years ago, was because i saw myself getting worse with their comformity without transformity ideals. I know i need a new heart before i do anything. This is why i won't go through a ceremony. I'm afraid of being a hypocrite. I want to make sure this lust is out of me completely. I keep this verse in Galatians 5:5 - For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. And Romans 10:17 (Whole Chapter)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
My only hope has been in THE WORD for years now.
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Oblivion,
I can relate, for I do the same things. Especially the lusting after girls part. I even went as far as to call God "Evil" because I didn't like what I had read in the OT. One thing I was never able to break loose from is the guilt after I do something I know is wrong, immoral, sinful, etc...
So, I'm thinking, if God didn't exist, and if I truly had free-will, then why can't I just do certain things without feeling guilty, awkward (at times), and sometimes even embarrassed. I mean could it be that something is (dare I say?) causing me to feel bad? Well, I think so,
since I can't make myself feel not bad-even though at times I tried. You know, like for example, a homosexual is convinced that what he is doing is fine, and therefore has no shame, no guilt, nothing. I can't do that. And I don't mean have homosexual sex, I don't even want to, but you get the point. Had to clear that one up.... so there's no confusion.
I'm sure an Atheist would argue that it's all due to my upbringing and all that, but even so, if I truly had free-will, I could choose to do something bad, and not feel guilty, ashamed, etc... afterwards, but rather feel proud, or something instead. And it also, can't be due to my upbringing, because there was a time when I didn't feel guilty at all, in fact I was proud of myself. But that was before I went back to church and become a (cough, cough) Christian. After that, things began looking quite different to me, sinful, evil, unholy, and dirty.
But that period was short lived, for I went back into the world, and started doing those things again.
So, now I'm struggling with a double-mind, believe in God, don't believe in God, do this, don't do this, do that, don't do that....
you get the idea. I'm a mess.............
Thanks for reading,
Sorin
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Bradigans
Keep the faith. We are to encourage one another to overcome this world or this age. The things of this age are the shadow of death. Know that we are all walking through that valley and we are all having tremendous problems. I have my own that are extremely hard for me. I feel completely alone because I do not feel there is anyone I can talk to that has the exact same problems I have, but we all have the same problems even though they may be a different name like lust, greed, fear, coventeousness, lazy, etc. If we focus on them we will slowly but surely go back into Bablyon in our minds. You need to go to the heavens in your mind.
Paul says do not think on these negative things, but to fix our minds on good, lovely and true things. Those true things are that the end of a thing (this age or life) is better than the beginning of a thing. Remember that God works all things to the good of those that are called according to their purpose. The entrance of God's word brings light. That light will shine into the darkness of your life and bring to remembrance that God is a merciful God and He loves you. Wait patiently on Him.
Romans 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
That condemnation is about what has gone on in the past, so be like Paul and forget those things that are behind and press on toward the mark set before you. That purpose of God that is always before you.
Do this. Be an overcomer and count it all joy. Whatever you are going through is a trial made especially for you by God whose mercy endures through the ages.
CIY
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Bradigans,
I feel for you man. That's not to say I am any better, in fact I may even be worse. But that's beside the point, it doesn't matter who is a worse sinner or not. The point is, I too am quite depressed, and so I can relate. Even though our problems may be different, the result is the same-we are both unhappy, depressed, etc...
So, if you ever need anybody to talk to, you can always talk to me man.
Take care,
Sorin
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Oblivion,
I can relate, for I do the same things. Especially the lusting after girls part. I even went as far as to call God "Evil" because I didn't like what I had read in the OT. One thing I was never able to break loose from is the guilt after I do something I know is wrong, immoral, sinful, etc...
So, I'm thinking, if God didn't exist, and if I truly had free-will, then why can't I just do certain things without feeling guilty, awkward (at times), and sometimes even embarrassed. I mean could it be that something is (dare I say?) causing me to feel bad? Well, I think so,
since I can't make myself feel not bad-even though at times I tried. You know, like for example, a homosexual is convinced that what he is doing is fine, and therefore has no shame, no guilt, nothing. I can't do that. And I don't mean have homosexual sex, I don't even want to, but you get the point. Had to clear that one up.... so there's no confusion.
I'm sure an Atheist would argue that it's all due to my upbringing and all that, but even so, if I truly had free-will, I could choose to do something bad, and not feel guilty, ashamed, etc... afterwards, but rather feel proud, or something instead. And it also, can't be due to my upbringing, because there was a time when I didn't feel guilty at all, in fact I was proud of myself. But that was before I went back to church and become a (cough, cough) Christian. After that, things began looking quite different to me, sinful, evil, unholy, and dirty.
But that period was short lived, for I went back into the world, and started doing those things again.
So, now I'm struggling with a double-mind, believe in God, don't believe in God, do this, don't do this, do that, don't do that....
you get the idea. I'm a mess.............
Thanks for reading,
Sorin
To all, i feel the same when it comes to being a hypocrit. I Stand before you a hypocrit i can assure you that if nothing else.
More specificy sorin i wanted to say something here.
LOL every time i TRY TO GO INTO THE WORLD, cuz I WANT TO GET AWAY FROM GOd and stop feeling like a hypocrit and undeserving of His kindness, HE DOESn"T LET ME AHHHHHHHHHHH LOL
I seriously cannot spend a year [never have atleast since i was dragged to the truth], i mean even a month [after bieng dragged to the truth], completely with my mind off GOd, ITS NUTS. Is anyone else having htis problem?
FREE WILL? Bah! My white behind! :P
Love to you all,
Alex
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Brother, that shows your true heart and that your heart belongs to the Lord Almighty . You have committed yourself to His ways. You might stray off a little but you come back. Awesome!
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Yeah I know what you mean. Heck, when I first got into christian universalism all I could think about - while I was being "romantic" with the girl I was talking to - is how awesome God is! Its so wonderful to have this hope of seeing everybody saved one day. Not just christians...er some christians.
But anyway...question: If we are no longer under the law, does that mean we no longer have to try and keep it? Some people say 'don't try and keep the law, just have faith in Jesus'. Which, I have faith in Jesus and I TRY to keep the law...but what do you think? I always break the law...
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Hey, I drive too fast, say hurtful things, not with the intentions to hurt but speaking before I think. We all do what we know not to. The main thing to me is not so much an intent to follow the law but a desire to live in a way that would be pleasing to God. I know it's been way overused but I think about the "WWJD" thing in regard to my life.
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But anyway...question: If we are no longer under the law, does that mean we no longer have to try and keep it? Some people say 'don't try and keep the law, just have faith in Jesus'. Which, I have faith in Jesus and I TRY to keep the law...but what do you think? I always break the law...
Well, Paul and James do have something to say about this. :)
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
James 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and from the works faith was made complete?
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God."
James 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
But, Paul reminds us that
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Love and peace,
Carol
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Hi Oblivion,
If we are no longer under the law, does that mean we no longer have to try and keep it?
Carol brought out some really good scripture about the works, that the spirit will do in us.
If you are among the few chosen and have the Holy Spirit indwelling, you must go beyond the letter of the law and keep the spirit of the law. Here in this passage Paul says what he is admonishing and teaching the saints to become perfect, IN CHRIST.
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church;
v. 25 whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfil the word of God,
v. 26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints,
v. 27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
v. 28 whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;
Paul tells us we must put off the old self, here are the sins of the flesh that we must overcome, throught Christ indwelling.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
v. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
v. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
v. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
v. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
v. 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Here is the fruits Christ will produce by His Spirit indwelling, it is He that does it, we are just the vessel.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
v. 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
v. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
v. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
v. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Live not by the mistakes of yesterday, nor the fears of tomorrow, or else, "you miss today."
...this is the day the Lord has given, therefore, let us be glad and rejoice in it!
Everyday is a new day - jER