bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: nightmare sasuke on July 09, 2006, 02:50:10 AM
-
Does anyone have any evidence against the popular translation, besides other translations?
-
There is a very well written responce to an email by Ray on the web site if you would take the time to read it, I'm sure it would enlighten you somewhat to this mystery. And it is not just another translation but more of how translations lose the spiritual meaning of scripture.
Rodger
-
There is a very well written responce to an email by Ray on the web site if you would take the time to read it, I'm sure it would enlighten you somewhat to this mystery. And it is not just another translation but more of how translations lose the spiritual meaning of scripture.
Rodger
I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.
-
Mathew, Mark and John do not say anything about this, except that when they were crucifying our Lord, all the people were mocking Him, even the ones He was crucified with.
Here is the clv version of this verse, maybe this can shed some light:
Lk 23:43
And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."
Notice how it is stated in the clv..He is saying to him today, not necessarily that 'today' he would be with Him in paradise, but simply spoke those words today, not specifically saying when he would be in paradise.
Hope this helps.
God bless,
Gary
-
Nightmare,
You seem to be very confused on alot of issues. I would suggest that you work on one topic until you have your answer and then move on to the next. It sounds to me, with all the questions you have had here lately that you need to get back to the basics. I think you are confusing yourself. I know you are confusing me.
You said
I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.
I say
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Why the second verily. Why say "I say unto thee". There are many words which Jesus said that we think can be eliminated because we think they are not important.
Maybe the word "today" has to do with this...
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures. What do the scriptures support. Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
God be with you
with love
Scott
-
Nightmare,
You seem to be very confused on alot of issues. I would suggest that you work on one topic until you have your answer and then move on to the next. It sounds to me, with all the questions you have had here lately that you need to get back to the basics. I think you are confusing yourself. I know you are confusing me.
You said
I don't see why a dying Jesus would bother adding another word to his sentence. Why say "today" if the word was not important? That's what bothers me.
I say
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Why the second verily. Why say "I say unto thee". There are many words which Jesus said that we think can be eliminated because we think they are not important.
Maybe the word "today" has to do with this...
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures. What do the scriptures support. Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
God be with you
with love
Scott
I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."
By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.
-
Nightmare,
Did you read Ray's response to his e-mail that Rodger pointed out. It explains it alot better than I can. I like number 7:
AFTER Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, and AFTER three days and three nights, and AFTER He was resurrected, He met to Merriam, "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). So even AFTER His resurrection, He was NOT IN A PLACE CALLED PARADISE WITH THE THIEF, but rather conversing with Merriam and the Disciples for forty days.
This blows the theory of 'TODAY" out of the water.
Good luck
-
Nightmare,
Did you read Ray's response to his e-mail that Rodger pointed out. It explains it alot better than I can. I like number 7:
AFTER Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, and AFTER three days and three nights, and AFTER He was resurrected, He met to Merriam, "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). So even AFTER His resurrection, He was NOT IN A PLACE CALLED PARADISE WITH THE THIEF, but rather conversing with Merriam and the Disciples for forty days.
This blows the theory of 'TODAY" out of the water.
Good luck
There's two arguements Orthodoxy can present against that. Both are stupid, but they do not think so:
[1] The Father is not in paradise, but paradise is a section of hades.
[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
-
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The tree of life is in the midst of paradise. So if we find the tree of life we find paradise.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Paradise is not in Hades.
-
[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
Not sure what this means. You will have to explain it to me.
Thanks
-
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The tree of life is in the midst of paradise. So if we find the tree of life we find paradise.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Paradise is not in Hades.
Thanks! Now I can shoot down that one arguement.
-
[2] Jesus was talking about his physical ascent into the sky.
Not sure what this means. You will have to explain it to me.
Thanks
In other words, he was talking about a specific ascent, when he left the Apostles by ascending into the air.
They might argue Jesus was talking about a separate event.
-
Hello, Night
No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths is something you will soon find fruitless..
Chris R
-
in luke it does not say today, it say to day,
lets translate chumkin style :D
on this day you will be with me in paridise. what day????
Hemera
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
i could be wrong, but you know me :P ;D ::)
but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the guy.
he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll be in paridise.
-
I agree with you Chuck, if that is ok? :o
I think it is a matter of knowing what "today" means, spiritually (not physically):
Heb 3:6-8 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:13-16 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
My 2 pennies. ;D
Chrissie
-
Hello, Night
No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths is something you will soon find fruitless..
Chris R
Why write a paper with holes in it?
-
the holes are for the binder :P :D ;D :D :o
-
the holes are for the binder :P :D ;D :D :o
;D ;D ;D
-
in luke it does not say today, it say to day,
lets translate chumkin style :D
on this day you will be with me in paridise. what day????
Hemera
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
i could be wrong, but you know me :P ;D ::)
but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the guy.
he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll be in paridise.
I don't think I understand this interpretation, but that is nothing new. I get lost quite often.
In Luke, to day was translated from the Greek word semeron, which means "this very day". Not from the word hemera.
Ray's answer seemed much clearer to me. The comma was in the wrong place. Jesus told the thief today, that he would be in paradise with Him some time in the future.
Tim
-
Tim,
That very well could be. I do not deny that.... but in looking at "today" and what/when that is, it just doesn't seem to matter (to me) where the comma is (which when moved, if used, changes the emphasis and meaning of the statement).
So rather than argue over where the comma goes, it just seems easier (for me) to see that it does not matter.
However. IF Christ said: "I tell you the truth today, ...." Was he not then talking about a physical/earthly/24HR day?
And the only reason that bothers me is because Christ said that His words are SPIRIT.
SO.... IF Christ said: "..., today shalt thou be with me in paradise", I can see that he was not talking about a physical/earthly/24HR day. But was speaking a spiritual Truth as it relates to a particular "DAY".
The same word (sēmeron) is used in Hebrews where it mentions "While it is called TODAY":
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
And I see what Christ is telling the thief on the cross as a spiritual truth.... that it is "while it is called today" that IF WE HEAR HIS VOICE that we are to NOT harden our hearts.
It is not UNTIL "Today if ye WILL HEAR my voice" and "harden not your hearts" that we are allowed to partake of the Tree of Life.
I see this as true for me, for you, for the thief on the cross.... for ALL.
It's just how I reconcile it in my own mind and I how I support it with the scriptures. Right or wrong.
Blessings,
Chrissie
-
in luke it does not say today, it say to day,
lets translate chumkin style :D
on this day you will be with me in paridise. what day????
Hemera
of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom
i could be wrong, but you know me :P ;D ::)
but seeing this Jesus actully used the lest amount of words he had to. he couldnt very well explain ressurection to the guy.
he just got done teaching psalms 22, so he simply said" on hemera youll be in paridise.
I don't think I understand this interpretation, but that is nothing new. I get lost quite often.
In Luke, to day was translated from the Greek word semeron, which means "this very day". Not from the word hemera.
Ray's answer seemed much clearer to me. The comma was in the wrong place. Jesus told the thief today, that he would be in paradise with Him some time in the future.
Tim
tim,
you are correct, but when i study the word i go to the root and lok at all of it.
i could be wrong, but when looking into greek and how its been transliterated, i like to go deeper.
at crosswalk even the word hell says its
gevenna of Hebrew origin (01516) and (02011)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Geenna 1:657,113
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
gheh'-en-nah Noun Feminine
Definition
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
FROM:
Hinnom None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hin-nome' Proper Name Location
Definition
Hinnom http://= "lamentation"
a valley (deep and narrow ravine) with steep, rocky sides located southwest of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the hill of evil counsel' and the sloping rocky plateau of the 'plain of Rephaim' to the south
Jer 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart
sorry for the confusion.
-
I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."
By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.
Oh boy don't the detractors like this one! :)
Prarrydog pretty much nailed it when he said:
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures. What do the scriptures support. Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
But as you say, this might not stop them. So then ask where did jesus go when he died. Did he go to paradise?
Not according to the scripture:
1 Pet. 3:18-20,
- "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
Jesus died in the flesh, but was made alive in the spirit (he was the firstborn of the dead) And where did he go? (You might ask) Was it paradise or "prison?" Prision! Really, doesn't sound much like paradise to me! :)
What can they say, does it matter? You have given them the truth and yet they refuse to hear. This is God's work my friend, for even you can lead a horse to water bu not make him drink. Don't fret it. :)
With Love,
Darren
-
I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."
By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs.
Oh boy don't the detractors like this one! :)
Prarrydog pretty much nailed it when he said:
The answer to your puzzle lies in the scriptures. What do the scriptures support. Are people dead right now or are they in paradise?
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.
But as you say, this might not stop them. So then ask where did jesus go when he died. Did he go to paradise?
Not according to the scripture:
1 Pet. 3:18-20,
- "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
Jesus died in the flesh, but was made alive in the spirit (he was the firstborn of the dead) And where did he go? (You might ask) Was it paradise or "prison?" Prision! Really, doesn't sound much like paradise to me! :)
What can they say, does it matter? You have given them the truth and yet they refuse to hear. This is God's work my friend, for even you can lead a horse to water bu not make him drink. Don't fret it. :)
With Love,
Darren
Prison refers to Christ preaching through Noah...
-
Nightmare Sasuke said: "I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."
By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nightmare,
Ask your detractors, what's the point of the RESURRECTION ( which by definition means to raise the dead) then? If the thief went to Paradise that very day. And also since he was obviously a thief, who's to say he won't try to be a thief in "Paradise" I mean afterall all he ever did to go to Paradise was utter the right words before drawing his last breath. How does that make him any better than the other thief, who was blaspheming Jesus? Weren't they both theives? How does sending a thief directly to paradise at the last second teach him anything? How did he learn his lesson that way? I mean how stupid could Orthodoxy be? To reward a thief with Paradise for simply uttering a few words. Why you might even say THE THIEF SNUCK HIS WAY INTO PARADISE.
That's the way I see it,
Sorin
-
Nightmare Sasuke said: "I know the dead are unconscious. I have written 10 chapters concerning the subject. However, I am thinking logically. My detractors will say, "Why did Jesus, who was in utter pain, nailed to a cross, add an extra word to his sentence, drain himself of extra breath, if the word did not have any significance or add to the emphasis of his message? Why bother saying 'today' if he did not mean that day. It is obvious he was saying it that very day."
By quoting other (only 2) translations, all the detractor must say is that I am using other translations to support my beliefs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nightmare,
Ask your detractors, what's the point of the RESURRECTION ( which by definition means to raise the dead) then? If the thief went to Paradise that very day. And also since he was obviously a thief, who's to say he won't try to be a thief in "Paradise" I mean afterall all he ever did to go to Paradise was utter the right words before drawing his last breath. How does that make him any better than the other thief, who was blaspheming Jesus? Weren't they both theives? How does sending a thief directly to paradise at the last second teach him anything? How did he learn his lesson that way? I mean how stupid could Orthodoxy be? To reward a thief with Paradise for simply uttering a few words. Why you might even say THE THIEF SNUCK HIS WAY INTO PARADISE.
That's the way I see it,
Sorin
The thief died to his flesh on the cross, and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, and the Lord answered his call. Was Paradise immediate? Probably not.
-
Nightmare said: "The thief died to his flesh on the cross, and called upon the name of the Lord to be saved, and the Lord answered his call. Was Paradise immediate? Probably not."
Right, it does say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" but if the thief went directly to Paradise on that same day (or after drawing his last breath) then it contradicts too many other scriptures (i.e. the dead no not anything, resurrection, a place of unperception/hades/sheol etc...). So yes, the thief shall
be saved, but this is in the future.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead(not the living thieves in paradise) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Doesn't that also include the thief? I mean won't he ever be judged according to his works? And if so, then how much sense would it make to allow him to be in Paradise until judgement day, and then send him back to his coprses grave, so he can be resurrected and judged according to his works? That's why dead until resurrection day is the only thing that makes sense.
-
Hello, Night
No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths is something you will soon find fruitless..
Chris R
Why write a paper with holes in it?
Hi Night,
Are you seriously thinking That by some amazing insight you will write a paper that will encompass all truth?
that there will be no one questioning your insights?
Even the scripture cannot help you there, Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Or Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
This is why we "learn" righteousness in Isaiah 26:9...As there are none that have understanding of it now, much to our bruised egos, our righteousness is still as filthy rags.
All one needs to do, is just read this forum, and you will quickly see the number of insights that folks have concerning all things.
Peace
Chris R
-
Hello, Night
No one will ever "convince" anyone of these truths....trying to "win" a argument with folks about these truths is something you will soon find fruitless..
Chris R
Why write a paper with holes in it?
Hi Night,
Are you seriously thinking That by some amazing insight you will write a paper that will encompass all truth?
that there will be no one questioning your insights?
Even the scripture cannot help you there, Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Or Job 36:26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
This is why we "learn" righteousness in Isaiah 26:9...As there are none that have understanding of it now, much to our bruised egos, our righteousness is still as filthy rags.
All one needs to do, is just read this forum, and you will quickly see the number of insights that folks have concerning all things.
Peace
Chris R
I'm writing a paper explaining how death is unconscious. I aim to win my readers. Is there anything wrong with working hard on something? I'm sure Paul didn't write any of his Epistles in five minutes; to the contrary, he poured his heart and soul into them.
I've learned to think like an Orthodox person for the purpose of defeating their arguements. I'm trying to counter their lame arguements in my paper before they can make them to me in some other way.
-
I think he was saying,I tell you today,he would see him in paradise,I think the coment had more to do with the fact that Jesus was on the cross for our sins on that day,andother way to say it could be I tell because of this sacrifice I have made today,you will be in my faters kindom,there was no actual day of intering it mentioned,but stateing that on that day because of what He did for us all mankind will be in the kingdom,thats just the way I think of it,
-
Hello,
I was not planning to respond to this question because I am horrible with punctuation and grammar. I accept Ray's explanation of the comma placement. Where did Christ go the day he died. If He didn't go to paradise that day, then the comma question is moot because the thief would not be with Christ in paradise on that day. Did He go directly to paradise or did He have to wait three days until his resurrection since he said to touch him not for he had not ascended to the Father?
You are arguing/supporting a point that death is being unconscious. I presume that this unconsciousness in your opinion lasts until everyone is resurrected together at the same time. If you haven't already, then you should be prepared to discuss Matthew 17 and the 144, 000 and others discussed early in Revelations.
I know this is off topic but I have always had the impression that upon ressurection we would be spirit entities similar to angels. I could never understand why Christ ascended to the Father rather than just kind of disburse in every direction or just fade out from the physical eyesight of everyone.
I personally think you might be setting yourself up for a true nightmare of frustrations but my prayers are with you in your search for truth and edification
feat
-
harryfeet
Well said and put forth......
What more can be said abot this, that has not been argue over by now.
Rodger
-
I think he was saying,I tell you today,he would see him in paradise,I think the coment had more to do with the fact that Jesus was on the cross for our sins on that day,andother way to say it could be I tell because of this sacrifice I have made today,you will be in my faters kindom,there was no actual day of intering it mentioned,but stateing that on that day because of what He did for us all mankind will be in the kingdom,thats just the way I think of it,
Makes sense.
-
Thanks mongoos:I went back today and reread luke 23;43 and noticed that Jesus said (verily)I say to you today, so I looked up the word verily(strongs 281, amen) and found it means,amen,so be it,trustworthy,so he said(trust me or so be it or amen you(will)be with me in paradice)or it is finish my work is done the salvation of mankind is finished.....Jerry
-
opps that was nightmare not mongoose ;D jerry