bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mr.moreno75 on March 04, 2010, 07:03:40 PM
-
Need some biblical insights on the term: the "many" and the "all" ,for salvation.Thanks, Blessings with all Spiritual Blessings.
heres some bible verses.
THESE WORDS APPEARE HERE.
ISAIAHS 53:12 -MANY ROMANS 5:18,19 -ALL
MATTHEW 20:28 -MANY 1 JOHN 2:2 -ALL
AND MORE ......I THINK YOU GET THE POINT ,THANKS ??? :-\
HEBREWS 2:10 -MANY
HEBREWS 9:28 -MANY
-
Need some biblical insights on the term: the "many" and the "all" ,for salvation.Thanks, Blessings with all Spiritual Blessings.
heres some bible verses.
THESE WORDS APPEARE HERE.
ISAIAHS 53:12 -MANY ROMANS 5:18,19 -ALL
MATTHEW 20:28 -MANY 1 JOHN 2:2 -ALL
AND MORE ......I THINK YOU GET THE POINT ,THANKS ??? :-\
HEBREWS 2:10 -MANY
HEBREWS 9:28 -MANY
Here's a link to a transcript of the September 2007 bible study 'Does All mean All?': (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html)
And the audio: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html
Your answer concerning whether 'all' or just 'many' will be saved is thoroughly answered in this study. If there is a point in the study you don't understand, please ask and reference any particular statement in mind.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
Hi folks,
Just my two bob's worth,
- "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Ro 5:18,19)
The answer regarding 'all' and 'many' in this scripture is simple. The ALL is mankind INCLUDING CHRIST, the MANY is mankind EXCLUDING CHRIST. Christ was included in the judgment resulting in condemnation and the free gift resulting in justification to life because He took our sins upon Himself and took the punishment for those sins, death. He also became a partaker in the free gift of life being resurrected to life.
However, Christ did not inherit Adam's sin, only mankind did hence the 'many' (all excluding Christ) and by His act of obedience the same 'many' will be made righteous (Christ IS righteous and does not need to be made righteous).
Hope this helps.
Grace and peace to you and yours
Nelson
-
Christ was included in the judgment resulting in condemnation
Hello Nelson
Please would you elaborate on what you mean by the above statement.
Thanks.
Arc
-
Hi folks,
Just my two bob's worth,
- "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Ro 5:18,19)
The answer regarding 'all' and 'many' in this scripture is simple. The ALL is mankind INCLUDING CHRIST, the MANY is mankind EXCLUDING CHRIST. Christ was included in the judgment resulting in condemnation and the free gift resulting in justification to life because He took our sins upon Himself and took the punishment for those sins, death. He also became a partaker in the free gift of life being resurrected to life.
However, Christ did not inherit Adam's sin, only mankind did hence the 'many' (all excluding Christ) and by His act of obedience the same 'many' will be made righteous (Christ IS righteous and does not need to be made righteous).
Hope this helps.
Grace and peace to you and yours
Nelson
Hello Nelson,
Christ is not included in being judged by one's offense seeing as the Father has committed all judgment to His Son [John 5:22] and will judge the world by Jesus not against Him [Acts 17:31]. Jesus has never suffered condemnation or punishment from His Father, Christ voluntarily laid down His life [John 10:17-18].
Marques
-
hey , nelson I agree with you, Christ was judged cause are sin including (adams sin)on the cross .So thats why, so thats why Hes included in the All . Many people dont see it that way, its good for me. Many will come with bible knowledge, but will lack discernment for sure. Thanks bro ,Blessings! ;D 8)
-
Yes, Jesus did lay his life down for us. But, I know it was because he was the perfect sacrifice. We are not perfect so only he could do that for us. So, in his eyes we are perfect and a finished product since the foundation of the earth.
I personally get sick of looking at the old Beast. There is nothing good in my flesh. I have moved on from the cross and know that God no longer holds my sins against me. Now, I am a new creation cause I am no longer looking at Adam. I am looking at Christ and taking on his nature. He gives me things to correct me now. He does that to help me grow not because I am condemed. We are judged by what he did, instead of by what we did. But, he was not judged because he was perfect. He laid his life down on his own because he loves his creation. He took our place for our sins. But, when we believe this there is going to come a correcting period for us. We are in the process of taking his mind on. He does not hold the sins agaist us he paid for them. But, he is like the Father and therefore, the Son and He wants Sons. So, therefore we were judged as perfect because of what he did. Not, of anything we did. So God was juding us as perfect because he judged us through his Son righetousness.
I really think sometimes on here we get upset by other because we dont always explain ourself well. I think we should watch before we judge another Brother or Sister.
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Many people dont see it that way,
Maybe this will be good news for you Hector, or maybe it will be real bad, but many people DO SEE IT THAT WAY! :)
Few see the truth.
What applies to all of us is what Ray explains here, quote
You will not find God until God finds you. Men grope after God, but few find Him, because He does not reveal Himself to all humanity at this time, in this lifetime. There is coming a resurrection in which all humanity will learn of God (See Isaiah 26:9 and similar verses).
May God be with you and reveal Himself to you,
Ray http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3589.0.html
Arc
-
Marlene we have the Mind of Christ ,I totally agree with you on every thing you just said.I Beleive in Jesus The resurected ,the One that arose frome the dead, the Spiritual Jesus, The Risen One who gave US the VICTORY,PERFECTED US, COMPLETED US IN HIM. Im glad that you think like that ,others are still living the Carnal Jesus, living the rudiments of Christ ,but we dont have the Carnal mind of Jesus ,we have the Spiritual Mind of Jesus.John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Blessings with all Blessings from above ! Hector Moreno
-
Arcturus my brother in Jesus Spirit, thanks for your comment . you are right about Him finding me , and not me finding Him.You have The Spirit of Jesus ,Lets keep communicating Grace in the dispensation of Grace.Blessings with all Spiritual Blessings from Above...your bro. Hector Moreno ;D
-
Hector, Yes we have the mind of Christ. When, we have the desire to live as he does he equips us with that Spirit. But, I am not totally complete as yet. That requires much correction before I have his complete mind. But, I do trust that he will continue to make me in his Image. It is not easy to become like God. He is molding and making me. I cannot say that at this time I have obtained it all. But, he has me seeking to be just like him, and I know only he can change this heart of mine. I am forgiven by him. But, I desire to be like him and this is giving up of myself just as he did for us. Always, praying to him and walking in his footsteps. Showing love for all my Brother and Sisters. Lifting them up not condeming them. Knowing, that they are on the same path. I am not the judge. I am being judged by God now. I am in this with all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ and I need them all to comfort me and to share our pain and sorrow when it seems it is to hard to carry on.
Loving my enemies is something that he is teaching me to do. When, I look at them as God does this becomes an easy process. We once were them.
I know, I have the mind of Christ because I Love him more then anything in this world. I love all people. After, all it was the sinner who Christ came for.
I am no better then any other man. God draws each man in his own time. All, I can do is be a light in this dark world. I pray that I will never be anything less then a light to all I come in contact with. I never want to take it as just an easy thing. God forgives and not move any further. There are many like that in the world. But, because I have his Spirit I know there is more to it .
In His Love,
Marlene
-
Marlene you are right, We once were them. But now we know that Jesus COMPLETED, PERFECTED our Spirit, we got to take this carnal body heading towards perfection .God will give them the same Spirit with-in His time .From Grace to Grace.........Blessings Hector M. ;D
-
Arcturus my brother in Jesus Spirit
;D Just one little, modest, slight, petite, diminutive, tiny, correction Hector. ;D
I am a sister not a brother. :D
I hope that doesn’t change your perspective that I am in the Spirit and Presence of Christ…. :D....not serious....I only tease..... :)
You are not the first to assume I am a he not a she. :)
Arc
-
Marlene we have the Mind of Christ ,I totally agree with you on every thing you just said.I Beleive in Jesus The resurected ,the One that arose frome the dead, the Spiritual Jesus, The Risen One who gave US the VICTORY,PERFECTED US, COMPLETED US IN HIM. Im glad that you think like that ,others are still living the Carnal Jesus, living the rudiments of Christ ,but we dont have the Carnal mind of Jesus ,we have the Spiritual Mind of Jesus.John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Blessings with all Blessings from above ! Hector Moreno
others are still living the Carnal Jesus, living the rudiments of Christ ,but we dont have the Carnal mind of Jesus
Hello Hector and welcome.
I don't understand your quote,could you please elaborate on Christs carnal mind and why you think that Jesus was ever carnally minded.
Are you saying that Jesus the Son of the Father was never fully formed or developed while being in human form and walking in the flesh? ???
Thank you.
Peace...Mark
-
Jesus was fullfilling the Carnal rituals (Judaism Law),so that we dont have to do them anymore.Thats what i meant when I say Carnal Jesus ,the Jesus that practiced the Fathers will. Be we follow the fathers will too right. john 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. ;D
-
Jesus was fullfilling the Carnal rituals (Judaism Law),so that we dont have to do them anymore.Thats what i meant when I say Carnal Jesus ,the Jesus that practiced the Fathers will.
Hector,
There is no such thing as a 'Carnal Jesus' seeing that Jesus never changes [Heb 13:8]. Please take some time to read Ray's teachings and refrain from bringing your own teachings as almost everything you've posted has been unscriptural.
You don't need to delete your account or not post at all...simply read Ray material, compare with your own beliefs, and then either come to a resolution that is not in conflict with the forum rules or go about your business.
Thanks,
Marques
-
Hi folks,
Just my two bob's worth,
- "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Ro 5:18,19)
The answer regarding 'all' and 'many' in this scripture is simple. The ALL is mankind INCLUDING CHRIST, the MANY is mankind EXCLUDING CHRIST. Christ was included in the judgment resulting in condemnation and the free gift resulting in justification to life because He took our sins upon Himself and took the punishment for those sins, death. He also became a partaker in the free gift of life being resurrected to life.
However, Christ did not inherit Adam's sin, only mankind did hence the 'many' (all excluding Christ) and by His act of obedience the same 'many' will be made righteous (Christ IS righteous and does not need to be made righteous).
Hope this helps.
Grace and peace to you and yours
Nelson
Hello Nelson,
Christ is not included in being judged by one's offense seeing as the Father has committed all judgment to His Son [John 5:22] and will judge the world by Jesus not against Him [Acts 17:31]. Jesus has never suffered condemnation or punishment from His Father, Christ voluntarily laid down His life [John 10:17-18].
Marques
Maybe you could elaborate why Paul change from "all" to "many" in that short passage?
-
Maybe you could elaborate why Paul change from "all" to "many" in that short passage?
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Lupac,
What difference does it make? The word 'all' can mean 'all, every, each' etc. or it can mean 'as many as'.
So then 'as many as' what? As many as have committed the 'offense of one'.
So who has committed this offense...this offense of the carnal mind to sin and disobey God? Is it really ALL including Christ that committed this offense? Or is it 'as many as'?
Whoever this same 'as many as' MUST have the free gift of Christ's righteous act to be justified. So, does Christ need to receive Himself in order to be justified [Rom 5:18]? Is Christ really included in the ALL of this passage?
And for anyone who thinks it is not carnality that causes the 'offense of one', Paul clears this up in the next verse:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...
What is this disobedience and how is it caused?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
Neither indeed can be subject to the law of God...or in other words, can neither be in obedience to the law of God.
THAT'S why Christ is NOT included with the all/'as many as'.
I hope I have elaborated enough for you,
Marques
-
Members:
I did not want to come off as 'snappy' in the comments above. But I was annoyed because the FIRST response in this thread referenced a bible study by Ray which answers the question of 'all' and 'many'. As I stated then, this study answers these questions thoroughly and AFTER one reads/listens to it, then ask with a particular statement or comment in mind.
A discussion is when 2 or more parties talk AND LISTEN to one another. It can be annoying when the listening part is ignored but only talking, talking, talking. I was going to post this in Roy Martin's 'Expectations' thread, but I think a balanced discussion should be expected on a DISCUSSION board, not people talking without listening.
Thank you,
Marques
-
I've read that study by Ray. He doesn't say anything about the words "polus polos" IIRC. My question was, why does Paul use two different words? Was he making some kind of point by it, or was it just a change of style? It was just a question, I'm sorry if I annoyed you.
-
I've read that study by Ray. He doesn't say anything about the words "polus polos" IIRC. My question was, why does Paul use two different words? Was he making some kind of point by it, or was it just a change of style? It was just a question, I'm sorry if I annoyed you.
The greek word for 'all' is 'pas':
Excerpt from 'Does All Mean All' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html):
You will notice that I did not say, does scripture ‘say’ God will save all. There is a reason for that. I know all of us here believe God will save all of humanity. I know we all believe that fervently and we base it on the scriptures.
But today I’m going to play, not the devil’s advocate, but the theologian’s advocate. I want you first of all to give me some scriptures that state emphatically that God will save everybody.
Okay 1 Tim 4:10, let’s turn there and I’m going to play the theologian’s advocate and we’ll see what we come up with. This is the verse we have at the bottom of Bible-truths.com.
1 Tim 4:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Now what is it about that scripture that would make you think that God will or have to save all? What is in there, what word? All. The word all, right? Wrong, pale face. You don’t understand hermeneutics or this good stuff taught in the seminaries of this world. So it’s wrong. The word ‘all’ can mean - all, completely, totality or as many as.
So they say, ‘well yes He is the living God who will save as many men, as He will save, however many that is. Those that come to Him out of free will choice and accept Christ. Yes He will save that many, that all. The word pas in the Greek, that’s how many He will save, as many as He will save. He will especially save believers for sure, because God so loved the world, that whosoever believes on His Son will be saved. You will receive eternal life if you believe. Certainly the believers and all men who are not believers, but maybe will be believers in the ages to come, through this church age and however many there are. The all, the pas, the many will be saved too, but not everyone.’
Where did you get the words 'polous, polous'?
Marques
-
"Polus polos" is G4183, the words translated "many" in Romans 5:19. (It should be "THE many".) It's seems the KJV translators added quite a few key words to Romans 5:18-19. Here's how YLT has it:
So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
Does anyone have the CLV on their PC? What does it say? My original question still stands. Why would Paul switch from "pas" to "polus polos" in the same sentence? Is he talking about two different groups of people, or something? Ray says to pay attention to the all words. I was just wondering what you thoughts are.
-
"Polus polos" is G4183, the words translated "many" in Romans 5:19. (It should be "THE many".) It's seems the KJV translators added quite a few key words to Romans 5:18-19. Here's how YLT has it:
So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
Does anyone have the CLV on their PC? What does it say? My original question still stands. Why would Paul switch from "pas" to "polus polos" in the same sentence? Is he talking about two different groups of people, or something? Ray says to pay attention to the all words. I was just wondering what you thoughts are.
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." [CLV]
Lupac,
Paul is not talking about 2 groups of people, it's all the same continuing thought from verse 18. USAGE is the key to understanding the words that are translated.
I didn't ask the question 'What difference does it make?' to be flippant but really what DIFFERENCE does it make? The 'offense of one' from verse 18 is the same 'by one man's disobedience' from verse 19...Paul is almost repeating himself in these 2 verses, there is no difference.
If you want to 'pay attention to all the words', then great. But don't forget about all the words in the statement as they help define the word you are keying in on. Remember USAGE is the key in understanding the words being translated. We rely on usage to help our understanding that 'aion/aionios' is properly translated 'eon/eonian' but throw this same principle to the wind to understand other scriptures.
I don't mean to offend you Lupac, I really don't. But pay attention to WHAT Paul is saying in these 2 verses and that will help in understanding that it makes no difference (in this passage, not every scripture) regarding all & many.
Hope this helps,
Marques
-
Members:
I did not want to come off as 'snappy' in the comments above. But I was annoyed because the FIRST response in this thread referenced a bible study by Ray which answers the question of 'all' and 'many'. As I stated then, this study answers these questions thoroughly and AFTER one reads/listens to it, then ask with a particular statement or comment in mind.
A discussion is when 2 or more parties talk AND LISTEN to one another. It can be annoying when the listening part is ignored but only talking, talking, talking. I was going to post this in Roy Martin's 'Expectations' thread, but I think a balanced discussion should be expected on a DISCUSSION board, not people talking without listening.
Thank you,
Marques
Marques,
I don't think you're being 'snappy' at all. One of the great values in these threads is learning. When I answered I was answering the original question as I saw it, not claiming I'm correct, especially having read through the other answers. So, I personally have benefitted from this thread as a learning experience.
No single individual has a monopoly on the truth and we can all learn from the spiritual insight of some, even the mistakes of others. Sometimes there's more to a thread than meets our own individual eye, but I do understand that some threads get out of hand and arguments and debates begin to rage edifying no-one.
The theme of this thread started and really that should be the main point of discussion in order to avoid it branching into unrelated topics which should really be started in new threads. One thing I know for certain though, I'd not like to be a moderator on this or any other board that discussed the scriptures.
Thanks folks, I stand corrected.
- "He who keeps instruction is in the way of life, But he who refuses correction goes astray" (Pr 10:17)
Grace and peace to you and yours.
Nelson
-
Lupac,
Try to see the forest, not just the trees.
-
But if you don't carefully study the trees, you can hardly say the forest is there at all... (Just me trying to be deep.) I think I understand now.