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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Robert on May 28, 2007, 05:29:01 AM
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I am interested in apologetics for Creation. Until recently, I’ve believed in the six, literal-day view, but I’ve found some problems with that. Has anyone got scriptural evidence for day-age understanding? I have accumulated some.
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Something i always thought was interesting was that it wasnt' till day three that we had the sun to determine days and years, yet there was day 1 and 2 prior to this.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
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Robert:
I don't know that I have "scriptural evidence for day-age understanding." But...
I have been taught that the Genisis account was not like Revelation in that Moses was never said to have had a vision, but was given (told?) what to write... Meaning he was not interpretting what he saw and writing it down.
Now, like Rocky points out, "...the sun to determine days and years..." were not created until the 3rd day... But yet, "nights and days," occurred prior to that. Even the Earth existed before that, albeit in chaos.
All of that suggested this... From what perspective were these, "nights and days," determined? Remember a, "night and day" are different here on the Earth than the moon or any of the unknown number of planets, moons and stars. Why should we impose upon the words of the Genisis description of, "night and days," the limitations of Earth? Especially when the listed, "night and days," preexists the Earth's sun?
My understanding is that the Genisis description was given to us. From God. From what perspective does God determine, "a night and day?" Answer: Unknown to man at this time. Just because the Scriptures speak to man of, earthly "nights and days," does not mean that God is limited to exist within them. God exists within and without all limitations. Thus, the Genisis description maybe given from within and without.
I've spent more than a few hours studying and thinking about this subject. At this point, what I have been given is to accept the correctly translated words of Scripture and do not add to them. Accept that we are not given the answer to every question, YET.
Personally, I am confounded by people that argue about this and things like the age of the Earth and even Darwinism. Now admittedly I don't know the details of Darwin's theories and don't care to spend time studying them, but... My guess is that Darwin is wrong. My guess is that the "6 Literal Days" for creation is wrong. Man and dinosaurs existing together is wrong. Blah... Blah... Blah... Is it important? NOPE!
Well, those are one person's thoughts... I'd be more than happy to hear what others think. If I am wrong, then maybe one of you is the one that God will use to lead me to the truth. ;)
\/\/ard
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This is also something interesting which Ray points out:
Genesis 2:4 KJV
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Here God expresses creating the earth and the heavens in "a" day (singular). Never saw this before until I heard Ray point it out in one of his audios (I think in the first one of the latest from the Nashville conference).
Very interesting indeed.
Peace,
Diana
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I am undecided on the length of creation days. i believe it is 6 days as the Scriptures state, but the actual hours or length is still unclear.
Adam was created on day 6 along with all the land dwelling animals, then dinosaurs would have been created and dwelt before Adam.
Adam was the LAST creature to be created, AFTER the land animals. The dinosaurs and many other creatures no longer with us would have gone extinct after the Flood, due to the huge changes in the earth and the climate. Their fossils are still being uncovered today in the sedimentary layers laid down during and after the Flood. The Scriptures contain real history.
Do we think that dinosaurs were exempted from going onto the Ark? Secular thinking has convinced most of us that dinosaurs and man could not have lived together, do we live together today with wild beasts, not really. What about all the legends of "dragons", they could be about dinosaurs. The term "dinosaur" was only coined in the 1800's, there was no word "dinosaur" before that, but "dragon" was used.
I do not believe man was "primitive" as secular thinking goes, but was always intelligent and to a degree civilised, except for perhaps immediately after the Flood when cities had to be rebuilt.
Adam lived into his late 900's, if the 6th day was thousands of years old, this doesn't seem to fit with his age being only 900-odd years. He was created on the 6th "day" which came to AN END. He lived roughly the same length as others in his generation and after who were born AFTER the creation was complete, so how could the 6th day be thousands of years as some insist?
I read in Usher's Annals of the World that "evening and morning" for the Hebrews also referred to the colder months (evening) and warmer months (morning) of a year. Perhaps the days were years in length.
Possibly Adam did not have to name the entire species of land animals, but the ones in proximity to him making it possible to do so in a short time.
Many Christians have been hoodwinked by secular origins beliefs into believing that everything is very very old, yet we have gravitic time dilation, a theory that fits a short creation time frame with stars that a billions of light years away.
So there are many things to take into account when looking into this, I've thrown some of my own thoughts into the mix here, but there are many other things to look into as well, eg: carbon dating methods, rates of decay of radio isotopes, radiohalos, etc.
Peace to you. :)
Andrevan.
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There have been some good thoughts on this coming through, thanks particularly to Andrevan and I generally agree with them all. I have for many years gone along with the short account for creation, although it simply does not fit with fossil records, quite apart from evolution theory. When I say day-age, I mean that the creation days as a specified length of time, as opposed to a 24-hour day as we know it.
I am amazed to find that the push for belief in six literal day creationism has its roots with the SDA church, who view the Genesis literal account for believing in seventh-day Sabbath.
Even geological records reveal man is a relative new-comer to the world, and post-dates alleged relatives by a un-answerable distance. On this same subject, who believes the food was literally world-wide, i.e., it also covered Australia?
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I've noticed a few good points here. But we should know that God has declared the end from the beginning(Isa 46:10). When did God say what day it IS? Has the seventh already come and gone? or are we still IN the sixth day? Like as in between the sixth and the seventh trump. I think it is "like" a blueprint for the creation. First, how long is each day? Diana definitely hit on it.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The word thousand in this verse is plural in the Greek texts(Textus Receptus) both times. So actually it is thousands of years, not a thousand. Notice the Gen 1:27! I think that this is actually a parable and I can even see the salvation for all in this verse. The king James says this:
"Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
But has God fully creatED man or is God creatING man in His image. IN HIS IMAGE! If we have already been created in God's image then why do we still sin? God cannot sin. The Concordant Version says:
"And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the image of Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them."
PLEASE notice in the first chapter when it says at the end of the verses..."and it was so". Pay attention to the words! :) Here is the Strong's definition of the Hebrew word so(H3651):
kane
From H3559; properly set upright; hence (figuratively as adjective) just; but usually (as adverb or conjugation) rightly or so (in various applications to manner, time and relation; often with other particles): - + after that (this, -ward, -wards), as . . . as, + [for-] asmuch as yet, + be (for which) cause, + following, howbeit, in (the) like (manner, -wise), X the more, right, (even) so, state, straightway, such (thing), surely, + there (where) -fore, this, thus, true, well, X you.
It did NOT say at the end of the verse there "and it was SO". My point I'm trying to make is that God is still creating mankind in His image and that it is not completed, set, just, rightly, or so yet. I think that this word is definitely worthy of notice. I hope I may have given some insight on this here, Lord willing. ;D
Grace, Peace, and Mercy,
Michael
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This is also something interesting which Ray points out:
Genesis 2:4 KJV
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Here God expresses creating the earth and the heavens in "a" day (singular). Never saw this before until I heard Ray point it out in one of his audios (I think in the first one of the latest from the Nashville conference).
Very interesting indeed.
Peace,
Diana
I'm not convinced that this Scripture refers to days being ages or very long periods of time. In the day that our forefathers pioneered the west: By this we understand that they pioneered the west over many years. It is referring to the time when it was done. To me this does not turn a "day" into "a long period of time". In the the same way, in the day the Lord made the heavens and earth refers to the 6 days it was done, in the same as way as the many years the pioneering of the west was done.
Let's say that a new continent was conquered in 200 years, now "in the day our forefathers conquered the new continent" does not change the fact that it was conquered in 200 actual years and not one day, and not 200 ages.
Adam and Eve were real people, or am I in error here? We have a written history of them and their descendants, very possibly recorded by them and handed down through the generations to Moses. They were not a bunch of halfwits banging rocks together to make fire, I think we can all agree on that.
We have Scriptures that tell us God created in 6 days (yom), but few seem to want to believe it, all things are possible with God, I'm sure He could have created everything in 6 seconds!
There was no death before Adam and Eve sinned, because the wages of sin IS death, physical and spiritual. They eventually died, but not on day 6. I cannot see how thousands of years could have gone by before sin entered the world, as Adam was dead before he reached 1000 years and day six came to an end.
Mankind existed at the beginning of creation, Christ confirms this when He says that from the beginning, God made them male and female, speaking about divorce and marriage.
(As a side:
The majority of earth dating methods are made by secular scientists who have a predetermined bias towards the evolutionary time frame, and is nothing but speculation and "cleaning" of data. Not all the evidence points to billions of years.)
So we may make a comparison to us now being in the "6th day", but we have to consider that Adam and Eve were real people, as are the rest of their descendants, us :).
Just a few more thoughts of mine on this subject.
Peace to you.
Andrevan.
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There have been some good thoughts on this coming through, thanks particularly to Andrevan and I generally agree with them all. I have for many years gone along with the short account for creation, although it simply does not fit with fossil records, quite apart from evolution theory. When I say day-age, I mean that the creation days as a specified length of time, as opposed to a 24-hour day as we know it.
I am amazed to find that the push for belief in six literal day creationism has its roots with the SDA church, who view the Genesis literal account for believing in seventh-day Sabbath.
Even geological records reveal man is a relative new-comer to the world, and post-dates alleged relatives by a un-answerable distance. On this same subject, who believes the food was literally world-wide, i.e., it also covered Australia?
You mention the fossils and that a short creation time frame does not fit. We must take into consideration how fossils are formed in the vast majority of cases: rapid burial by water and sediment.
When a fish dies in your fish tank, does it float or sink, they genrally float, they tend to sink after other fish have had a good chew on them, but they decompose away. Fossils are not formed slowly and gradually, the organism must be buried quickly in water and sediment otherwise it just decomposes away. The majority of the fossil record was laid down over a short period of time. Imagine the power of the receding waters as the dry land appeared after the Flood: the Grand Canyon could have been formed by these powerful receding waters that COVERED the entire earth, massive powerful erosion over a short period of time, not over millions of years.
It all depends on your perspective: biblical history or secular history. :)
On this same subject, who believes the food was literally world-wide, i.e., it also covered Australia?
Do you mean "the flood was worldwide"? If so, yes it was worldwide: Gen 7:19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens;
Gen 7:20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
Gen 7:21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;
Gen 7:22 all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died.
Peace to you. :)
Andrevan.
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Hi all,
Revelation 20:10 (King James Version) "...And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever..."
Same day and night as Genesis?
Revelation 22:5 (King James Version) "...And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever..."
Maybe the sun on Day 4 wasn't needed before, if reading the above verse...
This might help...
Emails to Ray - Days (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4313.0.html)
Emails to Ray - Ages (http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1305.0.html)
Walk strong :-)
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Hi All :)
This is a great discussion, and reminds me of the time when the movie "Jurrasic Park" was first released and how the churches tried to explain how Moses handled the dinasours.
From a purely analytical view point, there are many ways to look at this subject. :)
I think Michael asked the million dollar question: "What day is it today?"
Seeing how we have no point of reference to this outside of our own perspective, we can safely assume that that a day in the life of God is not measured by the time it takes the Earth to revolve on it's axis, ;D
This was also touched on by someone, for it was not until day 3 that the Earth was given light. God in his wisdom, created a universe to a Physicists delight, time (relative to our earthly measure) can be measured by the distance that light travels in a given amount of time. Light or the rays thereof change color depending on their distance they are from the viewer.
For even light as FAST as it is, is ridiculously slow as a measurement of distance of known space. Light only takes 8 minutes and 18 seconds to travel the 93,000,000 miles from the Sun to the Earth; however, any real light measurement is measured in the distance that light travels in a year.
But how far exactly is a light-year? Light travels 186,000 miles per second. There are 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, and 365 days in a year. Multiply these together to get 31,500,000 seconds in a year. Multiply that times 186,000 miles per second and you get 5,850,000,000,000 miles (from:DiscoverySchool (http://school.discovery.com/schooladventures/universe/itsawesome/lightyears/))
That's aproximately 5.8 trillion miles in a year. Now, scientists have discovered galaxies that are around 10+ billion light years away. The simple fact is that if we can see that light from this galaxy today, we are looking at what happened around 10 billion years ago.
So with all this taken into account, it would seem absurb to restrict God to our timeline, because his creation itself, teachs us differently. And so it should :)
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
What is clearly seen, is that we have absolutely no idea what God is capable of. :) It would be easeir to ask what God cannot achieve, which is of course NOTHING! :)
I hope this helps :)
Love to all,
Darren
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This is a fascinating debate. I've thought about this for decades now LOL. My conclusion?
We'll never be done questioning it. 100 people could post 5 times a day and we still wouldn't have any credible evidence. I think there's a powerful lesson in it though. God is awesome, and we can't begin to determine His ways. We can't fathom how He would have pulled off something like creation, wether in 6 days or 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. Either which way, He is responsible for all that has been created or destroyed, and that's super amazing.
Personally I don't believe in 6 literal, human-made calendar days. In fact that would be quite silly seeing how different cultures have devised differing calendars. If we debate this enough, it will grow into the chicken and egg debate.
Did He create a million animals or just 2 of each? He only made 2 humans.
When He created the stars, did he wait the 10 billion years that Darren spoke of, or did He create it so that the light was already reaching the earth?
When He created the mountain streams, were the rocks already smooth and eroded, or did it take time for that?
My mind wraps around not how many "days" creation took, but HOW it happened. Did He allow things to evolve, (or de-evolve) or snap His fingers and make it done right now? When He said, "Let there be *** or ****", did it happen suddenly, or was it just STARTED suddenly, then take time to become what it is?
Just a couple thoughts.
Matt
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To go back to what Robert originally asked, I think there may be a few Scriptures that could point to a Genesis "day" being and "age", but not directly. I'm not going to rule out any options.
Michael made a good point about God creatiNG mankind into His image. I think we all agree with Michael and Ray on this being the correct way it should be translated, it makes Scriptural sense.
Perhaps we are still in the 6th day as Michael points to, and when God "rests" on the 7th day, is when God is All in All, because His plan will have been accomplished.
We still need to take into consideration the ORDER in which God created everything, the real history of Genesis, the Flood of Noah, what effect that massive deluge would have on the landscape of the earth, etc.
Jurassic Park is fiction, not fact. I don't see a problem with dinosaurs being around with our ancestors. We don't expect to be taken out by lions while we go about our business, unless of course we wander around in the African bush looking for trouble ;). T Rex was one of a few meat eating dino's, and I can't see them plotting together in gangs to invade towns and cities eating humans ;D. Also they may not have been in all parts of the world either.
Just a few more points to ponder :).
Andrevan.
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Just a few further thoughts then: God said to Adam “for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Given that ‘A day to the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day’ – that was correct, no-one has lived more than 1000 years, every sinner has died ‘in’ a day, even Methuselah.
As far as what ‘day’ we are in, we are in God’s seventh day, because God has finished creation. All of creation is of course being sustained by God, but remember that Christ said to His creation to procreate ‘after their kind’ as with all other living things. No living things are created new.
I think it would be fair to say that Christ created great abundance of plants, birds and animals. He created a sustainable ecosystem. As well as this, on the ‘day’ Christ and the Father created Adam, He brought all the animals to him for naming. Adam would have been busy if it was a day of 24 hours, given that there are 8000 species of spider alone.
As far as death goes, I don’t believe it does any violence to scripture to assume that created beasts, plants, insects and micro-organisms had a life-span, and then died, before Adam sinned.
This is getting to my question about the world-wide food. It is easy to assume that Christ had put animals and plants and ecosystems all over the world. Given the flood as world-wide, ALL the plants and animals, apart from those in the sea, would have died, and the earth would have been a giant desert, therefore Noah would have faced a world with much less animals and plants than the world Adam was created in. This has always been the problem with this version.
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Hi Robert.
Check this out:
"And the man calleth names to all the cattle, and to fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; and to man hath not been found an helper -- as his counterpart." Gen 2:20
This is all Adam had to name, not insects (or sea creatures), etc.
You made some good points, especially when you say As far as death goes, I don’t believe it does any violence to scripture to assume that created beasts, plants, insects and micro-organisms had a life-span, and then died, before Adam sinned.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this point.
Plants and especially seeds can survive in water for some time.
"and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;
all in whose nostrils [is] breath of a living spirit -- of all that [is] in the dry land -- have died." Gen 7:21-22
Also, Noah and his family would have taken food on board for themselves and the animals, and quite possibly, Noah being an intelligent man, would have taken seeds for growing crops after coming off the ark, and possibly enough food to for when they came off the ark. Check out www.worldwideflood.com and http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3000/ for more info.
The post Flood world would have indeed been a very different place, ecologically and geologically, many varieties of creatures could have been lost, but speciation would have started again in the years after the Flood, as well as variation in creatures.
Another thought, if the Flood was only local, then God lied to Noah and us when He promised to never again destroy the world by water, by giving us a sign of His covenant. We have had thousands of local floods since then. If the Flood was local then God broke His promise to never again send a local flood.
God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.
Darren wrote:
So with all this taken into account, it would seem absurb to restrict God to our timeline, because his creation itself, teachs us differently.
While I can understand this, we need to consider the Word of God first and then our interpretation of the creation second. I think some refer to this as "general revelation", things relating to the natural world. General revelation should never have precedence over the Scriptures.
With a bit of research I've found that science and the Scriptures actually fit together rather well, way better than the unscientific theory of evolution, it just takes time to go through it all.
Peace to you all.
Andrevan.
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Hi All,
What about this?
Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours????
Genesis 2:17
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Isn't humanity continuing to eat of this tree (spiritually) every day until the close of the ages??
Perhaps there is a literal application as well as a spiritual application to the word "day". I find it interesting to seek out the spiritual application of the six days of creation.
Andrevan,
I think I'm with you in seeing this:
God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.
I wonder even if most of humanity is still in the 5th day spiritually speaking:
Genesis 1:25
25 And God made the beasts of the earth ...
What is man but a beast....it isn't until we recognize the beast within us that God begins to conform us into His image....I see the Elect as being in the sixth day, as it is this group that God is training to have:
Genesis 1:26
...dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
In the next age, the Elect will truly have this dominion over the fish of the sea (all the rest of humanity...the nations), the fowl of the heavens (evil spirits...do you not know that you shall judge angels?), over the cattle (the beast within), over all the earth (many called...Christians) and over all the creepers creeping on the earth (okay, I haven't figured out what this one could be ;)...anyone?)
I know many believe that the 7th day will be the millennium period/age, but I'm wondering if the millennium age is actually the 6th day and the 7th day is the end when Jesus gives back the kingdom to the Father, and God is all in all, and we shall all have perfect rest.
This may not be exactly what this thread is about, but I felt compelled to add this, just to give an alternative perspective as to how the 6 days could be a spiritual parable.
Of course, that doesn't rule out at all some literal application...
May God open our eyes on the matter, if it be in His will, :)
Peace,
Diana
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Thanks for your thoughts on that, and as I said, I’m still checking it out. I will reply however to the answer about God’s judgement and His promise never to flood the earth again: The food DID destroy ALL human life. Geological history, as well as the Biblical account implies that greater Mesopotamia was indeed the cradle of ALL human existence and civilisation. That type of judgement will not happen again. This answer though is from proponents of ‘old earth’ creationism, and is not from my beliefs as yet.
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Thanks for your thoughts on that, and as I said, I’m still checking it out. I will reply however to the answer about God’s judgement and His promise never to flood the earth again: The food DID destroy ALL human life. Geological history, as well as the Biblical account implies that greater Mesopotamia was indeed the cradle of ALL human existence and civilisation. That type of judgement will not happen again. This answer though is from proponents of ‘old earth’ creationism, and is not from my beliefs as yet.
So Noah spent many years (+-100?) building a huge ark to house 2 of every kind of creature with the breath of life and creeping things to save them all from a local flood? They floated around in a local flood for a year? Sounds ridiculous to me, and smacks of unbelief.
Why did they not just move somewhere else, away from the "cradle of civilisation"? People could have fled to higher ground or away from this local flood.
Geological history shows fossils all over the earth and sedimentary layers all over the earth formed by a water catastrophe.
Many scientists believe there was a massive planetary flood on Mars (where there is no water), but refuse to believe it happened on earth (where there is plenty of water).
After what Ray spoke about at the conference, I'm currently thinking that we are still in the sixth day, because 'it is not yet so'.
Ray also mentioned the "whales":
From Strong's:
tannîyn tannîym
tan-neen', tan-neem'
(The second form used in Eze_29:3); intensive from the same as H8565; a marine or land monster, that is, sea serpent or jackal: - dragon, sea-monster, serpent, whale."
From Brown-Driver-Briggs:
tannîyn / tannîym
BDB Definition:
1) dragon, serpent, sea monster
1a) dragon or dinosaur
1b) sea or river monster
1c) serpent, venomous snake
Water dwelling dinosaurs perhaps?
Peace to you.
Andrevan.
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The context of Genesis 1:21 seems to suggest that God created the great SEA-creatures (as opposed to great LAND-creatures). Land animals apparently were not created until Day 6 as far as I can see. Interestingly, if you look at the root of the Hebrew word "tan-neen" ("whales" in the KJ), Strong's suggests that it could be speaking of the plesiosaurus (sea-dinosaur). BUT, if God mentions that He created great sea based dinosaurs on Day 5, then why no mention of great LAND-BASED dinosaurs on Day 6? Perhaps God created ALL sea and land based dinosaurs on Day 5? Seems kind of strange to create ALL dinosaurs on Day 5, then create all OTHER land-based animals on Day 6 (??) Seems out of place, doesn't it?
Speaking of the plesiosaurus, some people have suggested that the legendary "OGOPOGO" creature supposedly swimming in the Okanogan Lake (from my home Province of BC, Canada) is a plesiosaurus that perhaps survived the mass extinction! lol
As for Ray's comments on "Creating man in His image..."
Ray did mention that it does not say, "and it was so", concerning making man in His image. He also stated that it doesn't say concerning God making man in His image that, "it was good".
But look at Gen 1:26-31...
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: AND IT WAS SO.
But, WHAT was SO? How can it NOT be EVERTHING mentioned from verse 26-30, which includes making man in His image??
Now, look at the next verse concerning EVERYTHING God created:
Gen 1:31 And God saw EVERYTHING (including making Man in His image) that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Comments???
Ray also states that because the present-future-tense is used, as in, "God is MAKING man in His image", proves that it wasn't a completed act, as in "God MADE man in His image". But, how about everthing else God made? The present-future-tense is used ALSO concerning Him creating the vegetation, animals and virtually everything else....He is MAKING the animals and He is MAKING the herbs etc etc...
Perhaps I missed something here (it does happen...a lot!)? ;D
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Hi jerreye,
I will see if I can help with your questions;
But, WHAT was SO? How can it NOT be EVERTHING mentioned from verse 26-30, which includes making man in His image??
If you look back when God created the different things, you will notice that immediately after their creation said, "and it is so."
Gen 1:7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
Gen 1:9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
Gen 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so.
Now when you come to the creation of man, you will notice when He had finished this part of His creation, He did not end it with the statement, "and it is so."
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
But in verses 29-30, He went on to speak on what He had given them for food and that is when God said, "and it is so."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Gen 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
And of course God overlooking His whole creation and said, "indeed it was very good." Because this creation is His plan to bring all mankind into the family of God. And though it was just the beginning, He knows the end from the beginning.
Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
v. 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
Ray also states that because the present-future-tense is used, as in, "God is MAKING man in His image", proves that it wasn't a completed act, as in "God MADE man in His image". But, how about everthing else God made? The present-future-tense is used ALSO concerning Him creating the vegetation, animals and virtually everything else....He is MAKING the animals and He is MAKING the herbs etc etc...
You will notice that God created the creatures of the earth as a completed living thing, able to substain life and reproduce after it's on kind.
Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds,
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind.
God also made man complete, in that he was able to substain life and reproduce.
Gen 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion..."
But in the next verse God goes on to state He is in the process of creating man into "His image." But after this verse there is no, "and it was so."
Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them. (CLV)
This is the way that I understand these verses, I hope it helped :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks for your reply, Kat! I indeed had that in mind as well when reading Gen 1. It just seems plausible to me that God held off saying "and it was so" until AFTER He mentioned the fact that we have dominion over everything He created. However, when I look at mankind as it is, we are certainly NOT in His perfect spiritual image.
Here's an interesting question...it seems to me that Adam and Eve had every right to eat of the Tree of Life prior to eating of the Tree of Knowledge, correct? What would have happened if Adam and Eve DID eat of the Tree of Life, FIRST? Would THAT have made them into the spiritual image of God? I pressume that there is a LOT more here than meets the eye!
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The discussion is getting a little off-track, as the original question was for people who had considered the difference between literal six-day creation and what is dubbed ‘old-earth’ creation, as well as a side point that is related to do with Noah’s flood being world-wide or local. (And this still would have been an extremely large flood).
I will answer the previous question: ‘why didn’t Noah just move to a different location?’
The logic itself is faulty; if Noah and family just took a journey and moved to ‘higher ground,’ when they returned all the animals, birds and insects of Mesopotamia would be gone, and re-population of such would be extremely slow. Besides this, it simply was the Lord’s will that Noah make an ark.
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Hi All,
What about this?
Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours????
Great point Diane!
I remember when Ray quoted this in regard to creation length/time it really hit home with me.
The other question raised in this thread was about the Flood and was it local or worldwide? Well it looks like it was local in quite a few localities! :D
Check this out;
Africa
Southwest Tanzania
Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.
Asia
China
The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world.
Babylon
Gilgamesh met an old man named Utnapishtim, who told him the following story. The gods came to Utnapishtim to warn him about a terrible flood that was coming. They instructed Utnapishtim to destroy his house and build a large ship. The ship was to be 10 dozen cubits high, wide and long. Utnapishtim was to cover the ship with pitch. He was supposed to take male and female animals of all kinds, his wife and family, provisions, etc. into the ship. Once ship was completed the rain began falling intensely. The rain fell for six days and nights. Finally things calmed and the ship settled on the top of Mount Nisir. After the ship had rested for seven days Utnapishtim let loose a dove. Since the land had not dried the dove returned. Next he sent a swallow which also returned. Later he let loose a raven which never returned since the ground had dried. Utnapishtim then left the ship.
Chaldean
There was a man by the name of Xisuthrus. The god Chronos warned Xisuthrus of a coming flood and told him to build a boat. The boat was to be 5 stadia by 2 stadia. In this boat Xisuthrus was to put his family, friends and two of each animal (male and female). The flood came. When the waters started to recede he let some birds loose. They came back and he noticed they had mud on their feet. He tried again with the same results. When he tried the third time the birds did not return. Assuming the water had dried up the people got out of the boat and offered sacrifices to the gods.
India
A long time ago lived a man named Manu. Manu, while washing himself, saved a small fish from the jaws of a large fish. The fish told Manu, "If you care for me until I am full grown I will save you from terrible things to come". Manu asked what kind of terrible things. The fish told Manu that a great flood would soon come and destroy everything on the earth. The fish told Manu to put him in a clay jar for protection. The fish grew and each time he outgrew the clay jar Manu gave him a larger one. Finally the fish became a ghasha, one of the largest fish in the world. The fish instructed Manu to build a large ship since the flood was going to happen very soon. As the rains started Manu tied a rope from the ship to the ghasha. The fish guided the ship as the waters rose. The whole earth was covered by water. When the waters began subsiding the ghasha led Manu's ship to a mountaintop.
Australia
There is a legend of a flood called the Dreamtime flood. Riding on this flood was the woramba, or the Ark Gumana. In this ark was Noah, Aborigines, and various animals. This ark eventually came to rest in the plain of Djilinbadu where it can still be found. They claim that the white mans story about the ark landing in the middle east is a lie that was started to keep the aborigines in subservience. This legend is undoubtedly the product of aboriginal legends merging with those of visiting missionaries, and there does not appear to be any native flood stories from Australia.
Europe
Greece
A long time ago, perhaps before the golden age was over, humans became proud. This bothered Zeus as they kept getting worse. Finally Zeus decided that he would destroy all humans. Before he did this Prometheus, the creator of humans, warned his human son Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha. Prometheus then placed this couple in a large wooden chest. The rains started and lasted nine days and nights until the whole world was flooded. The only thing that was not flooded was the peaks of Mount Parnassus and Mount Olympus. Mount Olympus is the home of the gods. The wooden chest came to rest on Mount Parnassus. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha got out and saw that everything was flooded. The lived on provisions from the chest until the waters subsided. At Zeus' instruction they re-populated the earth.
North America
Mexico
The Toltec natives have a legend telling that the original creation lasted for 1716 years, and was destroyed by a flood and only one family survived.
Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.
United States
The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely paralleles the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a log in the water with various animals.
Ojibwe - Ancient native American creation story tells of world wide flood.
Delaware Indians - In the pristine age, the world lived at peace; but an evil spirit came and caused a great flood. The earth was submerged. A few persons had taken refuge on the back of a turtle, so old that his shell had collected moss. A loon flew over their heads and was entreated to dive beneath the water and bring up land. It found only a bottomless sea. Then the bird flew far away, came back with a small portion of earth in its bill, and guided the tortoise to a place where there was a spot of dry land.
Delaware Indian Legends
South America
Inca
During the period of time called the Pachachama people became very evil. They got so busy coming up with and performing evil deeds they neglected the gods. Only those in the high Andes remained uncorrupted. Two brothers who lived in the highlands noticed their llamas acting strangely. They asked the llamas why and were told that the stars had told the llamas that a great flood was coming. This flood would destroy all the life on earth. The brothers took their families and flocks into a cave on the high mountains. It started to rain and continued for four months. As the water rose the mountain grew keeping its top above the water. Eventually the rain stopped and the waters receded. The mountain returned to its original height. The shepherds repopulated the earth. The llamas remembered the flood and that is why they prefer to live in the highland areas.
Interesting isn't it?
Taken from http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Mike Huckabee on Evolution and the GOP Debate 6/5/2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mri8Ex5RmDw
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Hi, Joe.
I am aware that many cultures do have an account of the flood. The indigenous people of my county (New Zealand), the Maoris, have a story about a mythical god/man called Maui and his ‘big canoe’.
I believe that as the generations of Noah scattered throughout the world the oral history went with them and got changed over time, resulting in the variation of the stories.
What I don’t believe is that there was a world-wide flood and there were many people like Noah around the world who built a number of arks and replenished their various countries. I doubt that is what you believe but it could, upon a surface reading be construed that way.
Have a look at http://www.answersincreation.org/ . To date for me the jury is still out.
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What I don't believe is that there was a world-wide flood and there were many people like Noah around the world who built a number of arks and replenished their various countries. I doubt that is what you believe but it could, upon a surface reading be construed that way.
;)
Hi Robert,
You are absolutely right! I do not believe that!
What I do believe and what my point was that the message of this flood has reached the ends of the earth, pretty much every culture in the world has this legend that something catastrophic did indeed happen, if nothing else the message of Noah has covered the entire earth if in fact the actual physical water did not.
It is truly remarkable how tribes and/or remote cultures had this legend deeply ingrained in their "history" before any recorded contact with Semitic or western culture or missionaries of any kind.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Sorry to change the subject back to the orginal. :D But,
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The earth was without form, and void (empty). Darkness was upon it. The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So this formless, voided, water covered earth was all there was. Why? I've read viewpoints of previous activity on the earth. The Scriptures don't rule it out. Watcha think?
Matt
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Andrevan,
Regarding the DAY of giving of an account. It seems to me that the purpose here is to convict a person of their habit of sin or selfishness or gossip etc. In that case the judgement process would not have to go over every instance of using an idle (useless or thoughtless) word, but rather would lend itself to convincing a person that they needed to repent in tears and sorrow for the hurt they had caused others. Once they understand their own error or sin, then repentance would cover all other instances of the same or similar sin, just as it does with us in this day of correction for the Elect.
Thanks for reading, Indiana Bob
Hi All,
What about this?
Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours????
Genesis 2:17
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Isn't humanity continuing to eat of this tree (spiritually) every day until the close of the ages??
Perhaps there is a literal application as well as a spiritual application to the word "day". I find it interesting to seek out the spiritual application of the six days of creation.
Andrevan,
I think I'm with you in seeing this:
God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.
I wonder even if most of humanity is still in the 5th day spiritually speaking:
Genesis 1:25
25 And God made the beasts of the earth ...
What is man but a beast....it isn't until we recognize the beast within us that God begins to conform us into His image....I see the Elect as being in the sixth day, as it is this group that God is training to have:
Genesis 1:26
...dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.
In the next age, the Elect will truly have this dominion over the fish of the sea (all the rest of humanity...the nations), the fowl of the heavens (evil spirits...do you not know that you shall judge angels?), over the cattle (the beast within), over all the earth (many called...Christians) and over all the creepers creeping on the earth (okay, I haven't figured out what this one could be ;)...anyone?)
I know many believe that the 7th day will be the millennium period/age, but I'm wondering if the millennium age is actually the 6th day and the 7th day is the end when Jesus gives back the kingdom to the Father, and God is all in all, and we shall all have perfect rest.
This may not be exactly what this thread is about, but I felt compelled to add this, just to give an alternative perspective as to how the 6 days could be a spiritual parable.
Of course, that doesn't rule out at all some literal application...
May God open our eyes on the matter, if it be in His will, :)
Peace,
Diana
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Hi Matt,
You bring up a interesting point about the earth being in Gen 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
Now you can say that Gen. 1:1, the creation of the universe, could have happened a long time before God started creating life on earth in verse 2.
Though it seems that the earth is unique in all that we know about the other planets. It may have started out similar to what the other planets look like. But then God continued it here on earth and created a wonder life filled planet. I think unique in that aspect, in the universe.
Was a day of creation a 24 hour period? Here are the uses of the same word used for 'day' in the Genesis creation, throughout the scripture. The numbers in pharases are the number of times that word is used in scripture from the greek word for day.
H3117
day
יום
yom (398a); a prim. root; day: - afternoon *(1), age (08), age *(1), all (1), always *(14), amount *(2), battle (1), birthday *(1), Chronicles *(38), completely *(1), continually *(14), course *(1), daily (22), daily the days (1), day (1115), day of the days (1), day that the period (1), day’s (6), day’s every day (1), daylight *(1), days (635), days on the day (1), days to day (1), days you shall daily (1), days ago (1), days’ (11), each (1), each day (4), entire (2), eternity (1), evening *(1), ever in your life *(1), every day (2), fate (1), first (5), forever *(11), forevermore *(1), full (5), full year (1), future *(1), holiday *(3), later *(2), length (1), life (12), life *(1), lifetime (2), lifetime *(1), live (1), long (2), long as I live (1), long *(11), midday *(1), now (5), older *(1), once (2), period (3), perpetually *(2), present (1), recently (1), reigns (1), ripe *(1), short-lived *(1), so long *(1), some time (1), survived *(2), time (45), time *(1), times *(2), today (172), today *(1), usual (1), very old *(1), when (10), when the days (1), whenever (1), while (3), whole (2), year (10), yearly (5), years (13), yesterday *(1).
Maybe the days of creation went back to the beginning of the creation of the universe and came forward to the creation of man, just a thought.
Something else that I find interesting, is this verse;
Jere. 4:23 "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light."
Sounds a lot like Genesis 1:2, but this is talking about how Christ will find the earth when He returns.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
You wrote: Maybe the days of creation went back to the beginning of the creation of the universe and came forward to the creation of man, just a thought.
I believe that this is very probable; because without a doubt God did create dinosaurs and there is no mention of them anywhere in the Scriptures. This is not to say that they didn't exist, just that weren't around in time of Adam. If this view is correct, does it not remove all doubt regarding 6 literal man days.
Great point sister :)
Your brother in Christ,
Love
Darren
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Hi Robert & Joe
The only people who survived to pass on the Flood catastrophe account would have been Noah and his family who came off the ark. As Robert alluded to, the generations after Noah handed down this historic account, however, most of the accuracy would have been lost with superstition and superfluous details being added over the many generations. We have the historically accurate account given to us by God through Noah.
What reasons are there NOT to believe that the Flood covered the entire earth?
Peace to you :).
Andrevan.
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wow!!!,
Wen I first saw da name of dis Thread I jus went past but den I went back & had abit of a read, den went else wher den back again lol! den I found it real interesting! & went back 2 da start & read it all, All wot all had 2 say & each thort AMAZING! lol!, D@s wot I LOVE! about dis Forum, hw can U fault it? Thank You GOD!. Well n e wayz lol! in my Opinion lol!, I believe the entire Earth was under water az it is written 2 me its so plan 2 c lol! :D, az 4 da 6 day fing, Im nt sure!! but I do no who r we!? 2 say wot GOD can or cant do? HE is the Creator!! of alL! everything!!.NO Doubt!, Personally I fink its all of no importance!, & look 2 the AWESUM!! future WE ALL have 2 look 4ward 2, BUT! lol! I do LOVE! da wayz U all have ur say n backings n most cases wit Scripture, da knowledge uz pocess is Amazing! YOUS should alL b Thanking our Creator 4 all ur Orsum! talents & knowledge HE has given uZ!, Im sorry if Ive jus "killed it" lol!, I just thort id hav a say 2 lol! bcoZ! it was good lol! GODBLESS! uz alL!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. um! Robert wher u @ brother!?? Im in Palmerston North, man! I thort I was the Only 1 in NZ Opened 2 GODS TruthS! lol! :D na! jokEs! bO lol! Im so rapt HE has opened my eyez tho, HardOwt!, GOD is so GOOD!
OH! yea Diana I really Loved alot of ur insights of dis Thread OrsuM! & d@ U tube fingy was kewl! 2 ,GOD b wit U alwayZ!
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Hi Godsown1. So you’re in Palmy? My home-town is Foxton! In the early 80’s I worked in Palmerston at garage off Pioneer highway. I live in Te Puke now (American readers; that’s pronounced tea- pook-ee, as in look) and teach at a school in Rotorua. I used to belong to the Brethren assemblies, what about you? Btw, I haven’t met anyone else who believes this either. Do you know how this private message thingy works?
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Hi Robert,
If you want to send someone a personal message (pm).
Just right click on their name, that will take you to their profile.
Now scroll down to the bottom of the page, and you will see
'send this member a personal message' just click on that line.
It will take you to the message board.
Type out your message and you may 'preview' it before it is posted, then click on 'post'.
This will be sent to that person and they will have a box come up that says, you have received a pm.
At the top of any page you will see 'my messages' right click there.
It will take you to your in coming message page.
Hope this helps anybody that did not know how to use the pm :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat & Darren,
I'll try to find the paper I read about Creation. It's very interesting stuff with strong evidence that supports the theory that Earth was a chaotic mess between the times of Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Who says there wasn't a whole lot of time between those two verses? I hope I can find it for ya.
Matt
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Hey!!,
Howz it Robert I just wana say Ive sent U a message thru da way Kat sed 2, sO um! I hope U got it or get it :D lol! GODBLESS! alL
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Hi All,
What about this?
Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours????
Genesis 2:17
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Isn't humanity continuing to eat of this tree (spiritually) every day until the close of the ages??
Perhaps there is a literal application as well as a spiritual application to the word "day". I find it interesting to seek out the spiritual application of the six days of creation.
Andrevan,
I think I'm with you in seeing this:
God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.
I wonder even if most of humanity is still in the 5th day spiritually speaking:
May God open our eyes on the matter, if it be in His will, :)
Peace,
Diana
We are in the 6 age because 6 is the number of a man, or the number of Man. 7 is also the number of completion, or perfection.
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The early stories in Genesis are no more true then the parables of Jesus. They are not meant as historical accounts, but as moral lessons. How can a person eat of the fruit of the law or Jesus from a tree?
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The early stories in Genesis are no more true then the parables of Jesus. They are not meant as historical accounts, but as moral lessons. How can a person eat of the fruit of the law or Jesus from a tree?
I think this is nonsense, IMO. See what happens when we compromise the Word of God with the ideas of men? Perhaps you could take us through the "moral lessons" of Genesis 1 & 2 and then go backwards from Noah to Adam and explain to us at what exact point we go from historical and genealogical records to some up-in-the-air symbolism of moral lessons and fictitious fruit eaten by real (or fictitious?) people.
We are told clearly in the NT when and to whome Jesus spoke in parables.
I find these verses quite clear as to where man is located in reference to the creation:
Mar 10:6 Yet from the beginning [a commencement, chief, beginning, origin, etc] of creation God makes them male and female.
Mar 10:7 On this account a man will be leaving his father and mother and will be joined to his wife,
Mar 10:8 and the two will be one flesh. So that no longer are they two, but one flesh."
So at the beginning of God's creation, He physically makes mankind male and female, and since then God has been creating them into His spiritual image, this part of the process is still going on, it is not yet complete.
We need not be intimidated by what "soft science" (forensic speculation) says, because it is always changing, the ideas and theories come and go, but the Word of God never changes or passes away.
Peace to you.
Andrevan.
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First off you will only believe what you wish to believe. The bible never says how old the world is, and really does not say how long any thing took to be made. It say that the world was made or will be made in 7 yomes, but it also says that the world was made in 1 yome. As others have pointed out there was no day tell the 4th yome. So what ever a yome is it is not as day. The whole 7 yomes of creation is all about numerology.
People get Theory of evolution and Darwinism mixed up. Darwinism is a evil philosophy because it is racism is pseudo science. Theory of evolution is very sound, the problem is most people simply do not understand it. They think that evolution is all about mutation, like in some X-man comic book, and it is not. Theory of evolution works on three basic factors isolation, plastically of living organism, and genetic drift. The first thing you have to understand is that all living organism are plastic in nature, meaning that they are moldable in size and shape. Human do this all the time with domesticated animals, like dogs. All dogs are genetically wolves, but do not look much like wolves, and they come in all sizes. The other two factors relate, it take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of generations for two isolated groups to become two different species, through genetic drift. Meaning that with each new generation the genes are slightly different. This why Dogs are still genetically wolves, the generations between your pet dog and any wolf is less then 1,000 generations.
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We are in the 6 age because 6 is the number of a man, or the number of Man. 7 is also the number of completion, or perfection.
WHAT??? I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely 100% NO sense at all. No offense. For real. But.....we are in the 6th age ONLY because 6 is the number of man? What? This is the only age that has had man in it or something? I'm not following you here. If you can give me some scriptures that says we're in age 6 because 6 is the number of man then I'll buy it for sure.
As far as your evolution post goes, I agree somewhat. I was thinking about the dog scenario just the other night. There are hundreds of dog breeds. They've been crossbred for many generations. We have dogs that would have been unrecognizable 100 years ago, let alone 1,000. This is what's happened to mankind after Adam. Humans have crossbred between the races to make what humankind is today. Speaking of Adam, what would he think if he met a white man? He may have never even seen one.
BUT...this doesn't prove evolution of species. Species definitely change, but there is no proof of humans coming from lower species, no amebas turning into frogs, no two-legged fish crawling up to the shore and becoming apes, etc etc etc. There's none.
So yes, over time species adapt to their climate, they may become a little larger or smaller, maybe inter-breed and a new breed comes about, or as humans, a little whiter, but does that prove Darwin's, or anyone else's, evolution theories? I've never seen any proof that a species can change into a whole different species, no matter what the time span in question is.
Matt
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Hi rvhill,
I think I see what you are saying. I'm still contemplating this and studying it out when I can. You are probably right, and we are in the 6th age. This may be way out there, but for some reason I was thinking in a spiritual/symbolic sense the 5th day can refer to the "sea of humanity":
Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." And God created the great sea monsters, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
Genesis 1:20-23
I think this is speaking literally to be sure, but spiritually I wondered if the symbols could point to a general state of the people in the entire world. The condition most of humanity are in, in not realizing they are "beasts". This is why I was thinking the 6th day (or stage of spiritual development) may belong to the Elect, as they do realize they are "beasts" and then begin the process of having dominon.
And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them..... And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
Genesis 1:25-31
It is my understanding that it is the Elect that are now being brought through the process of being conformed spiritually in the image of God (while in the flesh)....so I thought it was interesting that the beasts were made first, and then God began forming man in His image. This seems to line up with what Ray teaches in that seeing the beast in you comes before being spiritually conformed in His image...This is why I thought that if you spiritually do not see that you are "the beast" (666), you are still back in stage 5...a part of the great sea of humanity. I've just been seeing the 6 day creation as our spiritual process, symbolically speaking.
But that is not to say that I don't think they have historical literal applications. The physical comes first, then the spiritual.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:46
Anyways, I can't say that I'm right about this, these have just been some of my thoughts on this as to why I thought most of humanity were in "the 5th day". I just throw it out there in case someone has seen something similar, and if not, it's all good, God will make it clear in His time.
God bless us in our studies,
Peace,
Diana
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( Speaking of Adam, what would he think if he met a white man? He may have never even seen one. )
Adam and eve were probably able to produce all colors. If they were not able to do this, where did all the different colors come from?
Iris
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Iris, I'm not sure just because I don't know exactly how God did things, but from what I've understood over time is that the Tower of Babel had a lot to do with that.
Also, I'm sure that over time, like I said, humans have changed. rvhill isn't totally off base when he says genes change slightly from one generation to the next. They change within the species, so humans have indeed changed over time. To say Adam produced every single different race of people is probably off target though.
Of course as usual, there's probably more qualified people than myself to answer that. ;D
Matt
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We are in the 6 age because 6 is the number of a man, or the number of Man. 7 is also the number of completion, or perfection.
WHAT??? I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely 100% NO sense at all. No offense. For real. But.....we are in the 6th age ONLY because 6 is the number of man? What? This is the only age that has had man in it or something? I'm not following you here. If you can give me some scriptures that says we're in age 6 because 6 is the number of man then I'll buy it for sure.
As far as your evolution post goes, I agree somewhat. I was thinking about the dog scenario just the other night. There are hundreds of dog breeds. They've been crossbred for many generations. We have dogs that would have been unrecognizable 100 years ago, let alone 1,000. This is what's happened to mankind after Adam. Humans have crossbred between the races to make what humankind is today. Speaking of Adam, what would he think if he met a white man? He may have never even seen one.
BUT...this doesn't prove evolution of species. Species definitely change, but there is no proof of humans coming from lower species, no amebas turning into frogs, no two-legged fish crawling up to the shore and becoming apes, etc etc etc. There's none.
So yes, over time species adapt to their climate, they may become a little larger or smaller, maybe inter-breed and a new breed comes about, or as humans, a little whiter, but does that prove Darwin's, or anyone else's, evolution theories? I've never seen any proof that a species can change into a whole different species, no matter what the time span in question is.
Matt
mari_et_pere and skydreamers it all has to do with numerology. Each number to the ancient Hebrews had other meanings beside a numerical value. 6 is the number of man. 1 and 7 are numbers of God because they are the beginning and the end, alpha and omega. The mark of the beast 666 is man as god, because 6 is the number of a man, and any number cubed is absolute. Since God is absolute it mean man as god. Which goes back to the whole Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
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This thread is getting way out of wack. Whether it is right that this is the 6th Age for whatever reason, this concept is not revealed in scripture. rvhill, if you have some scripture to show that please do, but numerology is not an exact science (if science at all) and can be opened to interpretation. BTW omega means "end, final, last, etc." What does the number "7" have to do with "Omega?" Again, I could be missing something, or I could care less what age we are in, bottom line is we need to adhere to what scriptures reveal. the six-day creation, whether literal or not, should not be a stumbling stone for anyone.
As far as evolution goes, the dog example is not a very good one. Read any article that will explain the difference between MACRO-evolution and MICRO-Evolution (wikipedia probably has something good on this). The former has been observed and verified scientifically, but never has one animal changed into a totally different one. It just does not happen, there is not a single thread of undeniable evidence. Quite the opposite, just barriers and hurdles that cannot be explained. Hence, I think the evolution theory should get knocked down a level to the evolution hypothesis AT BEST!
God be with you,
Roy
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Iris, I'm not sure just because I don't know exactly how God did things, but from what I've understood over time is that the Tower of Babel had a lot to do with that.
Also, I'm sure that over time, like I said, humans have changed. rvhill isn't totally off base when he says genes change slightly from one generation to the next. They change within the species, so humans have indeed changed over time. To say Adam produced every single different race of people is probably off target though.
Of course as usual, there's probably more qualified people than myself to answer that. ;D
Matt
Given enough time and isolation with out inter-breed, and any two groups of the same species will become two different species. As an example take the story of the time machine. The time traveler and the Eloi may look the same, but as a genetic level they would not be the same. The more time there would be between the two groups the more different they would become. At some point in time they would become two different species even if they still looked the same.
Now back to domesticated animals, like dogs. Dogs are shaped and sized because those were the traits their owners choice fore them, through breading. Since dogs like all plants and animals, including humans are plastic. They can be shaped through breading, diet, and other environmental effects. This is in part why pregnant women are told to get the right foods and not smoke or do drugs. Because the fetus is very plastic, and can be effected by many different thing for good or ill.
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This thread is getting way out of wack. Whether it is right that this is the 6th Age for whatever reason, this concept is not revealed in scripture. rvhill, if you have some scripture to show that please do, but numerology is not an exact science (if science at all) and can be opened to interpretation. BTW omega means "end, final, last, etc." What does the number "7" have to do with "Omega?" Again, I could be missing something, or I could care less what age we are in, bottom line is we need to adhere to what scriptures reveal. the six-day creation, whether literal or not, should not be a stumbling stone for anyone.
As far as evolution goes, the dog example is not a very good one. Read any article that will explain the difference between MACRO-evolution and MICRO-Evolution (wikipedia probably has something good on this). The former has been observed and verified scientifically, but never has one animal changed into a totally different one. It just does not happen, there is not a single thread of undeniable evidence. Quite the opposite, just barriers and hurdles that cannot be explained. Hence, I think the evolution theory should get knocked down a level to the evolution hypothesis AT BEST!
God be with you,
Roy
You should study it for yourself, but I know what I know. Heresy is heresy and creationism is heresy. What about the land of Nod, the land of wanderers, or the city of Enoch. Do you really believe that Cain married his sister? The sons of God are Adam and Eve and their descendants, and the daughters of men are other humans. Adam is like Jesus in a way they are both covenants. Adam is the old wineskin and Jesus is the new one. Adam is the way of death and Jesus is the way of life.
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The real problem here is pride. Most people want to believe that they are not beasts even though the bible say that they are beasts. On our own we will always be beasts, and nothing but beasts. Lucky for us that God so loved the world that he gave us Jesus. It is through the faith of Jesus we have a chance to become more then beasts. Since we are beasts that mean we came from beasts.
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OK that will be the last word on this. Agree to disagree.
Craig
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Hi Everybody,
This type of debate is going on, was going on and will be going on until the Lord in His time reveals these things to us, all else is pure speculation and an opportunity for our carnal natures to get the best of us.
When I read a thread my first question is; Is this edifying to our guests and members or is it stirring the passions that lead to strife and division?
I personally enjoy conversing about things that are no more than theory, supposition and alot of "what if's" thrown in for good measure, it makes interesting conversation but once we begin to defend our "feelings" without scriptural authority we can fall into a trap that produces rotten fruit.
My post here is basically a "heads up" to the brethren and I will close with this question;
Are you finding the direction of this topic edifying?
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Sorry Craig, I was posting as you were.
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Joe,
well said. I agree and that is why I said it was going out of wack. God could have revealed all the mysteries of the universe in His scriptures. He could have put word for word how He created everything. He could have told the secret to His entire divine plan. But He didn't. In the meantime let's us concentrate on the things that are important. Some technicalities should not be taken to heart unless they are grounded on solid scriptural truth (facts). Evolution and Creationism will not ever be a closed issue as long as we live in this flesh. Luckily, it bears nothing on us being made into the image of God.
I do not want to agree to disagree. I want to agree that it just does NOT matter! These technicalities should not determine our beliefs. Let's see the scriptures for what they are, not for what they seem to be.
God be with you,
Roy