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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Deborah-Leigh on January 18, 2007, 05:23:15 PM
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Are we saved yesterday today or tomorrow?
I believe that this question is important enough to discuss to bring forward the many truths we need to stand on as our reality in Christ the rock who is coming again.
What do you think?
Peace to you all
Arcturus :)
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Define "Saved"
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Arcturus,
Ray has stated that salvation is a process and that we will not ultimately be saved until we are in the kingdom. The same goes for God making man in His image; both are on going. Yet, he chose us before the foundation of the world to be His children. If we look at salvation through God's eyes, then we have always been and always will be saved. But through own eyes and experience, it is an on going process. I believe that when we are truely filled with His Spirit, we actually experience the salvation that God has planned for us. Does this make sense? I know that when I'm away from the presence of the Lord I feel only carnal and fleshly things; but when I'm in spirit and abiding in the Lord, I only feel spiritual things. And those spiritual things are eternal. No wonder the whole creation groans for the manifestation of the sons of God.
In His grace,
Dwight
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Hello Hokie0000
Welcome to the Forum!
Thank you for your question 8)
For me saved is deliverance from sin, uncleanness, the devil, wrath, this present evil world, enemies, death, weakness, failure and liability to temptations.
Now that should reveal when I think we will be saved. Not yesterday as some think they are. eg....I have been saved since 1977 when I was born again!....or today as in a done deal claimed in a half a minute sinners prayer, but tomorrow when Christ comes again for those who are eagerly waiting and hopefully expecting HIM.
Dwight I am in absolute agreement with what you offer from your observations. What came to my thoughts from your post was absolute v/s relative perceptions. When God sees us in Christ, abiding continually and depending without pause, on and in HIS love, then we are saved. Can there be any other way to stand the scrutiny of the Spirit of God? except that Christ makes us to be dependent, abiding and blessed to know and experience HIS trustworthiness, HIS faithfullness His LOVE and HIS sacrifice for us to bring us into Eph 4 : 12 ....the standard height of HIS own perfection, the measure of the stature of the fullness of HIS completeness found in HIM alone.
Should we speculate that our salvation that is bought at a price is guaranteed to us before His work in us is finished? I do not think so. Thank you for your thought provoking post.
Peace to you.
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Good topic.
Wouldn't saved and born again be about the same idea.
As we are only begotten now, we are sealed with the earnest of His Spirit now.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
When Jesus returns those raised or changed will be Spirit and born into the kingdom.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Here is an email of Ray's on saved.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved ---
[Ray Replies]
Dear Margaret:
"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question! Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question? If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.
Here is what we do read regarding salvation:
"might save" "to save" "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.
And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.
Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.
If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.
This verse says it all:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).
If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?" See the contradiction?
Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?
Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives? I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.
God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Is, Was, and Will Be.
Maybe it's kind of like that. It's just a thought. :)
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This a great topic, thanks Arcturus :)
You ask: Are we saved yesterday today or tomorrow?
There have been some interesting responses, but I would like to ask a similar question.
Were we saved yesterday today or perhaps tomorrow?
Although, I still pay the burden of sin in this world, I will be pardoned, for Christ died for the sins of the world.
1Cr 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Also, by his own words, he said that he:
Jhn 12:47 - And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He clearly said that he came not to judge, but to save the world. So when was the world saved? Was it not at the time of his death on the cross? Was it not at this time my sins were pardoned?
Even though I feel God and see God all around me, I still live carnally in a carnal world. I have yet to receive the FULL benefit of Christs supreme sacrifice, yet his promise was made and his wordls hold true. That is enough for me. :)
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Much Love,
Darren
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Hi Arcturus,
Good topic.
Wouldn't saved and born again be about the same idea.
As we are only begotten now, we are sealed with the earnest of His Spirit now.
Yes Kat I too see that Born again is saved and received into the Kingdom of God. Begotten is sealed with the earnest of His Spirit. This distinction separates the candy coated heresy that anyone is born yet! No one is BORN yet but some are begotten from above! 8)
Ray also affirms that salvation is an ongoing process.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Darren
Here are some of my thoughts in blue font. You ask,
Were we saved yesterday today or perhaps tomorrow?
Not yesterday not today but perhaps tomorrow yes.
Although, I still pay the burden of sin in this world, I will be pardoned, for Christ died for the sins of the world.
We do not pay the burden of sin but I believe I know what you are pointing to. We are yet subject to trial and suffering having not yet received the perfect fullness of the standard measure of Christ. Eph 4 : 13 Some may think they have, profess and set out to prove they have .. :)..but as for me I know.. :-\.. that I am still subject to failure, weakness and liability to the assaults of temptation. I am not yet SAVED or fully conformed into the image of Christ who ALONE is my sin offering. Only He was sinless, spotless and the Lamb of God and He is not back yet because He has gone to prepare a place. In the meantime, while He has not yet returned, I hope I am going to be ready and found worthy to stand unashamed before Him when He gets back.
So yes the Scriptures do not lie or contradict as you point out:
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Also, by his own words, he said that he:
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
That is why He CAME. Why does He RETURN though? He came not to judge but to be a sin offering. He returns for an entirely different assignment.
He clearly said that he came not to judge, but to save the world. So when was the world saved?
The world wasn’t saved…… It WILL BE SAVED…. future tense.
Was it not at the time of his death on the cross?
No.
Col 2 : 15 God disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in HIM and in it THE CROSS.
Where…WHERE… were the principalities and powers ranged against US made a public display and triumphed over? In HIM and in HIS cross. Are we told to carry our cross? Yes. Are we triumphant over and have any of us made a bold display of the principalities and powers ranged against any of us? No. WHERE? Oh sorry…I forgot Benny Hinn!…and all the other miracle working tithe collecting heresy preaching evangelists of Babylon. Yet there are some very successful foolish preachers who purchase Lear Jets to tropical and exotic and wealthy economies of the world who draw the crowds that turn away from the faith to give attention to deluding and seducing sprits and doctrines that demons teach through hypocrites pretentious liars whose consciences are seared as with a hot iron.
Many will tithe pay and buy into bondage in lust of the mind and eyes to entertaining glitzy glamorous displays in global stage performances in shameless claims to Gods power all done in the comfort of limousine style living and prosperity gratification of their senses. Without any hair on their heads being harmed they make a show of claimed power they assume to control at their whim and fancy making their whim and fancy equivalent to the leading of the Spirit of Christ. They neither "believe" the scriptures nor the power of God. They have not been resurrected but have been given up to the lusts of their own hearts and minds. Their spiritual supernatural entourage are the miracle-working demons.
2 Tim 2 : 17 their teaching WILL eat its way like cancer or spread like gangrene. (THIS TEACHING WILL HAPPEN, DID HAPPEN, IS HAPPENING AND WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN UNTIL JESUS COMES AGAIN) So it is with Hymenaeus and Philetus 18 who have missed the mark and swerved from the truth by arguing that the resurrection has already taken place. They are undermining the faith of some.
Was it not at this time my sins were pardoned?
What does pardoned mean to you? What does sin mean? What do the scriptures say?
1 John 2 : 16 For all that is in the world ( We are all yet IN the world yet some are less OF the world than others) the lust of the eyes, greedy longings of the mind and the pride of life, assurance in one’s own resources or in the stability of earthy things-these do not come from the Father but are from the world itself.
Christ comes again to bring fullness of pardon of which some have already received a deposit that Christ will bring to full salvation only once He returns again.
If I differentiate between the words pardon and resurrection then pardon is for those who believe and are chosen and resurrection is for everyone the fulfilment of pardon for some and the correction of wickedness for others.
Judgment and repentance, Gods Grace and His Mercy, are the means and way towards the fulfilment of pardon that is yet future. Judgment and repentance through unmeritied favor is Gods process of making elect vessels for Christ’s honour. I have to remain patient in the belief that the world and I are not yet saved and Gods work and process of bringing us all into the perfection of the image of Christ is not yet accomplished. Has the work started? Yes. Eventually ALL creation will be turned to God's Son who will then deliever all creation including Himself to God but right now Jesus Christ is not yet globally or Nationally back yet. He is coming. He will return. The Scriptures will be fulfilled.
Were my sins yesterday today and tomorrow, pardoned at the cross of Christ and therefore am I saved, NO. Jesus saved no one, not even Himself. In fact we are told not to save ourselves.
Turn on TBN and watch how many profess to be ruling now with Christ over sickness and disease and even death itself. I prefer to believe for the return of Christ rather than self professed holier than thou so called anointed mediators. For me, Christ JESUS is and will ever be the one true Mediator between me and God my Father. This fact is not dependent upon whether or not I know it, believe it or even agree with it. It is what it is. There is no other way. This is not to erase from authenticity that Christ gives us people to help us and guide us and teach us. He does. These are gifts to us who have freely received and freely give.
My thoughts about where Christ says He did not come to judge for me means that at His first appearance, He did not come to judge but He came to carry the burden of sin as a sin offering. Had judgment come before the sin offering, no one would be saved. Prophesied through Isaiah 53 is the first appearance of Christ upon the earth. The second appearance is to resurrection, Rev 22 : 12 Behold, I am coming soon, and I shall bring My wages and rewards with Me, to REPAY AND RENDER TO EACH ONE JUST WHAT HIS OWN ACTIONS AND HIS OWN WORK MERIT. At His second coming He will come to complete HIS work NOT OUR WORK BUT HIS WORK that is now going on in those He is working in to bring them to full salvation. His second coming will not be a repeat performance of carrying or dealing with sin all over again. Heb 9 : 28 Jesus Christ will not go to Calvary again. Those in whom sin is not fully purged, will be facing the Lake of Fire second death and those in whom sin is dead and whose flesh is subdued and crucified with Christ, will be brought to the first resurrection of the faithful called and chosen vessels of honour for Christ.
No one is saved in this life. For me the fulfilment of pardon is equal to the fulfilment of salvation. No one has yet arrived and perhaps like you, I do not have any hang ups about that either. I am running my race. Christ Jesus has not yet returned to the Earth. I am clear on that point however smudged under claims that His presence in Spirit is the same as His return to the earth. It is not. As Kat points out. Born again is not the same as begotten from above. As far as I know, Jesus is not anywhere except at the right hand of our Father. He is coming from there to the earth…..He will come again and He will be bringing His reward with Him. 1 Cor 6 : 14 And God both raised the Lord to life and WILL (Future tense not present or past ) also raise us up by His power.
Where is the person that claims that they have already been raised up by the power of God? Who has sat down with Moses and Jacob or any of the Patriarchs? Yet there are many in Mystery Babylon who are yet in the dark under a blanket cover-up of false teaching and seductive deceptive heretical spiritual idolatry that under deeper scrutiny point to the belief that some, self appointed anointed rule in the resurrection of Christ in present day terms. The foolishness of Preaching is not a limitation on Christ who visits the Synagogues to drag out who He chooses. Fallacious self-serving doctrinal errors as Paul says is a cancer and gangrene that is undermining the faith of some that only Christ can correct, purge and make whole again once He returns. The process has begun. It was prophesied in the OT it began in the NT. Jesus will not have to die again or deal with sin but rule He surely will when He comes again and judgment He will certainly administer together with His elect upon the yet imperfect souls not yet completed in His image and likeness.
Even though I feel God and see God all around me, I still live carnally in a carnal world. I have yet to receive the FULL benefit of Christs supreme sacrifice, yet his promise was made and his wordls hold true. That is enough for me.
Keep on exercising your faith. It is the real talent in the aridity, sham and drudgery of disenchanting irreverent godless vain and empty subtleties that are falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination.
I would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Those are my thoughts.
Much Love,
Peace to you
Arcturus. :)
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[He will certainly administer together with His elect upon the yet imperfect souls not yet completed in His image and likeness.[/color]
Arcturus.[/color] :)
Since this judgment is on the imperfect souls, and souls only exist in the flesh (dust plus spirit), do you see those in LOF being flesh beings???
Will they be resurrected similar to Lazarus, resurrected back into a flesh being??
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Hello Rocky
Few will be raised to Spiritual bodies co-heir status with Christ. Some will be raised to inherit the earth. Many will be raised to White Throne Judgement and conversion to righteousness.
There are three types and two results. Those to inherit the earth and those who receive spiritual bodies will together rule with Christ and facilitate the conversion to righteousness of the unrighteous on earth in the White Throne Judgment, until the knowledge of the Lord fills all the earth. Then every knee will bow.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus:
Let's look at this question a little differently. Let us assume that I won the loto, and chose too take the $20million over twenty years.
Would I ever have the $20million? Because surely I would spend some if not most of it before the last payment. Certainly, one could reason that I could earn a good portion by smart investing, but that would be a different portion of money. It is because of the $20million, not part of. Does that make sense.
Continiuing on with this scenario; let us assume that the payout is $1million a year for twenty years. (round numbers are easy)
I can bank on the promise of the remaining $19million. I may not have it in my bank account, but I known given time that I will recieve what has been promised. In the mean time, I can borrow against the promise and by a grand house, yatch, etc; or simply dig a hole and bury it because I am comfortable where I am.
Do you see the similarity between this scenario and the promise of life because of Christ's death?
Jhn 6:51 - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
My pending salvation is just like the $20million, I may not have it all at once, but I know it is mine and will be mine sometime in the future.
I think the real question is when do I believe I"got" the $20million, the moment I see the "winning numbers", the moment Iget the first $1million payment, or rather the moment I have the last cent in my hand?
I believe that it is the moment I see the winning numbers, for my faith in the lottery system is sufficient enough to know that I will recieve all the money, even over many years. Likewise, I believe that the promise of my/our salvation was fulfilled at the time of Christ's death and resurection. What is salvation? To me it is knowing that God so loved us that he gave his only begotten Son to death, so that we may never die.
Jhn 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Not ever die does not mean as a human, for unless the end come soon, we will all surely die in this world. No, we will not perish in the sense that God will not forget us, and we will live again in the Kingdom he will prepare. (assuming he has not already)
If I have faith that carnal man will keep a promise of paying me money over many years, how much more confident am I that that God will keep his promise. Truly, in my heart, soul and spirit it is a done deal. I am fully prepared to go through whatever God has planned for me, for I know all that is in store for me is for my good. This is such a wonderful fealing and I know exactly how David felt when he said:
Psa 23:6 - Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
David, only knew of what was to happen, (Christ's death) yet even his faith was strong enough to know that his salvation was a slam dunk. :)
Do you understand that I do not have to have the last inkling of my "new" body in God's new Kingdom to really know that I am saved. I don't need it, for I see and feel God all around and I know that he loves me more than I will ever know in this life.
I could and am willing to go back to before creation; God always knew his plan for me.
I hope that you are able to see where I am coming from? I believe that this has more to do with faith than fulfillment. (AND I would never suggest that you do not have faith) :)
Much Love to You.
Darren
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Hello Rocky
Few will be raised to Spiritual bodies co-heir status with Christ. Some will be raised to inherit the earth. Many will be raised to White Throne Judgement and conversion to righteousness.
There are three types and two results. Those to inherit the earth and those who receive spiritual bodies will together rule with Christ and facilitate the conversion to righteousness of the unrighteous on earth in the White Throne Judgment, until the knowledge of the Lord fills all the earth. Then every knee will bow.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
thanks for the reply. I think what u are saying is that if we aren't raised with a spiritual body (only for the elect), we will be raised with a flesh body on earth to undergo judgment on the soul/flesh.
So, theorietically, i could, if not risen in a spiritual body, be raised with another flesh body after my current death and on the earth????
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Dear Rocky
I can only share what I have at this point in my walk with Jesus. I do not know if it will be for you though but here it is anyway.
NT SONS – Overcomers, tried and found faithful. They inherit the Kingdom of God in Spirit – 1st Resurrection to exaltation to divine nature of Christ. Their work pertains to all things in Heaven and in earth: spiritual and human. 8)
Eph 1 : 10, 1Cor 6:10. The greatest in the Kingdom.
OT SERVANTS – In Judgment with the world are those who RECEIVE their reward and are raised to the exaltation and honour of God among men having been tried and found faithful, are raised to perfection as men. “You shall see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God” Perfected men under direction of unseen Spiritual members of God’s Kingdom establish a perfect Government among men. Heb 3 5,6 2nd Resurrection Saints of God who belong to God’s House. These inherit the earth. :)
CAST OUTS – Their names are not recorded in the Book of Life. Those who LOOSE their reward. 1 Cor 3 15 :'( >:( :o
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Darren
I see what you see and as you say:
I believe that this has more to do with faith than fulfillment…..
you have put your finger right on the button, the dividing line and difference between our respective view points. I, unlike you, or perhaps just like you….I put my eyes towards HIM and HIS faith and HIS return to fulfil the rewards of the promises God has written. Like, my eyes I prefer to be on the giver not the gift.
(AND I would never suggest that you do not have faith)
As for anyone suggesting that anyone does not have faith ….I agree! :D NO ONE should EVER stand on such thin ice!
Romans 12 3 For by the grace, unmerited favor of God given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought, not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance, but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
Faith is a gift from God and it is also a fruit of the Spirit of Christ. ;D For me this is a CONSEQUENCE of Christ not an asset of mine or $20 million part layby deposit. I know I will never be as Christ. He is first and last Alpha and Omega. The best I can be is a Daughter of God made Christ like in the first resurrection. Somehow, I really do not think I am in that league! Only God can make or cause me to be! I'd like to be but BUT only if it is the WILL and PLAN of God. ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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What about the following;
Col 1: 12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
John 1: 28,30
Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 30 When Jesus therefore received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and gave up the ghost.
When I pray - give us this day, our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, I know in my heart "THE BIG KAHONA" has been taken care of. It's the little daily "waves" I ask for forgiveness and help with. Like becoming the people God already knows we are.
Hope this makes sense!
Lisa
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I think this fits with what you are saying Lisa.
Heb 4 : 15 For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning. 16. Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace, the throne of God’s unmerited favour to us sinners, that we may receive mercy for our failures and find grace to help in good time for every need appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it. 8)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Good topic.
Wouldn't saved and born again be about the same idea.
As we are only begotten now, we are sealed with the earnest of His Spirit now.
2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
When Jesus returns those raised or changed will be Spirit and born into the kingdom.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Here is an email of Ray's on saved.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#saved ---
[Ray Replies]
Dear Margaret:
"How do we KNOW that we are saved?" Excellent question! Would you believe that the Scriptures do not answer this specific question? If they do, I am not aware of such an answer. The problem in answering this question is that you put it in the PAST TENSE--"How do we know that we ARE saved" which, I guess, could be in the past or present tense. Either way, I know of no Scripture that gives such an answer.
Here is what we do read regarding salvation:
"might save" "to save" "shalt save" "save us" "shall be saved" "such as should be saved" "whereby we must be saved" "we shall be saved" "what must I do to be saved" etc., etc., etc.
And even those few verses that speak of "but unto us which ARE saved...." a closer look at the Greek shows that it is in the aiorist tense and should be translated "...which ARE BEING saved..." as it is not as yet a completed fact or act.
Even Ephesian 2:8 which states: "For by grace ARE you saved through faith...." which is properly translated with the word "are" than "are you being saved" or some other aiorist tense verb, still does not show that anyone is ALREADY saved. The phrase "ARE saved" is telling us HOW we are saved, not WHEN we are saved. We "are" saved by grace just as people a century into the future also "ARE saved by grace." That's HOW they are saved, not WHEN.
If there were a verse that stated that we or anyone ARE or HAVE BEEN already saved, it would contradict many other Scriptures that show that salvation is an ongoing process.
This verse says it all:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE saved" (Matt. 24:13).
If this verse be absolutely true, can a statement that contradicts this statement of our Lord ALSO be true? Well, for example, "...he that shall NOT endure unto the end... ALSO be saved?" See the contradiction?
Jesus says to him that OVERCOMES... seven time in Rev. 2 and 3. If the "overcoming" part is really not necessary, then why is it emphatically stated such SEVEN TIMES?
Is there a reason for not having a verse stating how one can know that they are absolutely SAVED [past tense] at some point in their lives? I think so. We can NEVER STOP overcoming, striving, pressing on, following after, etc. We can have CONFIDENCE AND HOPE that we will be saved if we continue in our present total devotion to God, but never in this life can we say that we "ARE saved" already, in the past tense.
God has not, however, left us with assurances that we can absolutely bank on, if we follow His admonitions. Here is just one:
"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brother kindness charity [LOVE]. For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" (II Pet. 1:5-8 & 10).
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Hi Kat, could you explain to me or refer me to the difference between begotten and born again. I don't have the ability to do "audio", which I think is where Ray talked about it in the past.
The scriptures are clear we can be "sons" uihios now, so what do we become after being born again??
thanks.
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Yes, Arcturus, I like that!! Thank you dear sister.
Lisa
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Hi Rocky,
If you look at 1 Peter 1:23, you will see born again, and I'm sure a lot of Christians use this verse and others like it to say they are born again.
1Pe 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
But the word born also means begotten. To say we are born now, does not fit with so many other scripture.
G313
anagennaō
From G303 and G1080; to beget or (by extension) bear (again): - beget, (bear) X again.
Jesus explains this Himself, when He says one must be born of Spirit to enter the kingdom.
Now we have been begotten and Christ is in us, but in the kingdom we will be Spirit, as Christ is now Spirit and we will be like Him, 1 John 3:2.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
v.4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
v.5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
v.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
v.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
v.8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
I really like what Paul says here about our hope for salvation.
Contemporary English Version
Rom 8:16 God's Spirit makes us sure that we are his children.
v.17 His Spirit lets us know that together with Christ we will be given what God has promised. We will also share in the glory of Christ, because we have suffered with him.
v.18 I am sure that what we are suffering now cannot compare with the glory that will be shown to us.
v.19 In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are.
v.20 Meanwhile, creation is confused, but not because it wants to be confused. God made it this way in the hope
v.21 that creation would be set free from decay and would share in the glorious freedom of his children.
v.22 We know that all creation is still groaning and is in pain, like a woman about to give birth.
v.23 The Spirit makes us sure about what we will be in the future. But now we groan silently, while we wait for God to show that we are his children. This means that our bodies will also be set free.
v.24 And this hope is what saves us. But if we already have what we hope for, there is no need to keep on hoping.
v.25 However, we hope for something we have not yet seen, and we patiently wait for it.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Rocky
...to build on where Kat left off.........
1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are even here and now God's children; it is not yet disclosed, made clear what we shall be hereafter, but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall as God's children resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He really is.
"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" also fits as quoted in Kats post. 8)
Peace to all
Arcturus :)
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HIS words to your heart Lisa 8)
:) Peace with you
Arcturus :)
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OT SERVANTS – In Judgment with the world are those who RECEIVE their reward and are raised to the exaltation and honour of God among men having been tried and found faithful, are raised to perfection as men. “You shall see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God” Perfected men under direction of unseen Spiritual members of God’s Kingdom establish a perfect Government among men. Heb 3 5,6 2nd Resurrection Saints of God who belong to God’s House. These inherit the earth.
Hi Arcturus,
Revelation 20 seems to say that the elect will be raised in the first resurrection with spiritual bodies and the rest of the dead do not come back to life until the 2nd resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. There will be those who are still alive at Christ's return who will still have bodies of flesh, but all the rest will be raised from the dead with spiritual bodies
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
Revelation 20:5
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Then it seems to say that the judgment takes place at the 2nd resurrection of all others. I believed that all in the 2nd resurrection were also raised with spiritual bodies and no one was raised in bodies of flesh
Revelation 20:11
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Maybe I am misunderstanding.
Thanks,
MG
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Hello MG
I believe that Rev 20 : 5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished” is not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS, the Sinaitic, Vatican nos 1209 and 1160 nor the Syriac MS.
This makes all the difference! According to the spurious version that is considered to have crept into the text by accident in the fifth century, because no MS of earlier date either Greek or Syriac contains this clause, it is considered likely that this statement was at first merely a marginal comment that later was copied into the body of the scriptures by a subsequent transcriber who failed to note the difference between the text and the comments.
Consequently, only AFTER the millennial age would it be true to say that the rest of the dead will not live again until AFTER the thousand years of restitution and blessing are accomplished.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Thank you for your quick reply Arcturus.
I will have to give it more thought and ask God for understanding.
Thanks,
MG
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MG I appreciate and respect what you say. I have no problem with that as I too am still pondering and reflecting on this very vast subject and I am grateful for the opportunity to put my thoughts, pondering and questions into writing.
My question is if the "rest of the dead" only are raised for the 2nd death, then some kind of judgment would have had to have taken place before they are raised back to life? This surely can not be because 1 Cor 3 : 13 The work of each one will become plainly, openly known…..
Judgment will not take place in secret and it certainly doesn’t take place without the one to be evaluated present before the throne of judgment with their work becoming plainly and openly known as stated in 1 Cor 3 : 13.
Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appointed for all men once to die, and after that the certain judgement....
Does it meant that we are appointed once to die and after..AFTER... what? AFTER death….What comes after death? Judgment. Does Judgment happen while you are dead or AFTER death. Which is it then?….Judgment happens after death at resurrection. Christ is the Resurrection and the life. Who else but Christ does anyone meet once they are raised up out of death unto judgment? Who but Christ is our judge? Who else is the resurrection?
Rev 20: 12 And I also saw the dead, great and small; they stood…THEY STOOD before the throne…..
Who but Christ is on the throne? Who is the Resurrection and the life? Christ. Where do the dead stand but in front of Christ the resurrection and the life surely? After we die the next person we get to see is Jesus. That may be good for some ;D but real bad news for others. :o
1 Cor 3 : 14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation any product of his efforts whatever survives this test, he will get his reward. 15. But if any person’s work is burned up under the test, he will suffer the loss of it all, losing his reward, though he himself will be saved, but only as one who has passed through fire.
….. and standing before Christ some will receive a reward ;D and others will loose their reward >:( and be thrown into the LOF.
This leads me to think, subject to correction of course, that the millennial reign of Christ on earth does not take place in partition as a Heaven on Earth for a 1000 years before all Hell breaks loose for the wicked who are told to get up later and are only resurrected later to be sent to the LOF. That would imply that some kind of judgment had already taken place wouldn't it.?... It would mean that while we are dead we are judged fit for Christ or the LOF without having to go before Christ for Judgement or even having to give an account for every idol word or work we have done. It would mean that while we are dead we are judged either to wake to heaven on earth in a Millenium reign with Christ or later to wake up for the LOF.
May be I do not understand something here but, I do not believe that Christ is a covert judge that judges us while we sleep. So for me the Millennial reign of Christ on His Throne takes place during the White Throne Judgment with Christ on HIS throne reigning supreme with His co-heirs administering judgment throughout the heavens and the earth and His appointed stewards ministering His Government throughout the Nations of the earth.
This can only begin to happen after Christ returns to the earth. For me He is not back yet. For some, He has already returned to them personally and individually. For me, He is still coming and I am still waiting and expecting and hoping in His return. I know that there are some teachings that offer the opinion that there is going to be a great big sensual party on earth for a thousand years with all the good guys and then after the party the bad guys are going to get what is coming to them once they get their wake up call. For me that does not make any sense and I cannot find any scripture but many Churches who will teach this together with their rapture theories and Lazarus and the rich man teachings that they make fit their unscriptural heresies.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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This is so fascinating. I can never get a handle on the "logistics" of GWT, LOF, 1st resur.,
1,000 year reign.
Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign? If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect. Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.
Then do alll these billions alive and being "reigned upon" by Jesus and the chosen, have to die and then fairly quickly be risen again for the GWT? So then on Dec. 31 at 11:59 everyone dies on the planet and then the GWT begins at 12:00 so they all are vivified???
And of course satan is let loosed for a season, When?? How does this fit in??
During the GWT what is everyone doing?? Are we in a queue waiting our turn?? How does that work? Alpha order, birth by centuries, degree of meanness in a person?? I am being serious. I don't obsess over this but when it comes up then I start wondering.
Or does EVERYONE who ever lived, died, and raised again all together get on their collective knees to praise the lambkin?? Or is it all done in a twinkling of the eye. Or all spiritual and nothing physical. if the lake of fire is Jesus and the elect then how long does that all take. Where do the aions of aions fit in here?? Does Hitler, and Joe Dokes get aions of punishment or is it just one look in the lamb's eyes do it for us?? If Hitler has to spend aions to purge him, what does one do who may only need a short while or few lashes.
Thanks for letting me spout, I don't expect or need anyone to think they can explain this as it is deep and complex and may just be something to be taken by faith. Of course I know tht God has this planned and it will work perfectly.
I am sure Revelations is "revealed" only as we can take it in.
Thanks for reading,
gena
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I pulled some paragraphs out of the LOF 6 that relate to some of our discussion.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL
TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE
Only two sections of Scripture speak of judging every man’s work in fire. They are Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 3. Earlier in this series we covered many Scriptures showing that Judgment is on the House of God NOW (from the time of the Apostles until the return of Christ), and that there is coming a later judgment at the Great White Throne. All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two judgments by fire.
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FIRST THE PHYSICAL AND THEN THE SPIRITUAL
"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural [soulish, physical]; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual" (I Cor. 15:46).
But this is not what the church teaches. They teach that first came the natural, the soulish, the physical, and AFTERWARD will come A BETTER VERSION of the natural, the soulish, the physical! That is unscriptural nonsense. God is not building a better version of our physical bodies. We will be given SPIRITUAL BODIES:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; [Adam was destined to DIE from the time of his very creation:] "For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willing, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself [this certainly includes Adam] also shall be delivered from the bondage of CORRUPTION…" Rom. 8:20-21. [Adam was created in the ‘bondage of corruption’]; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul [subject to death and corruption]; the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT [NOT subject to death or corruption]. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:42-46).
I repeat: "So also is the RESURRECTION of the dead …it is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body" (Verses 42 & 44). EVERYONE raised in the resurrection will be "SPIRITUAL." Are those in Rev. 20 not resurrected from the dead? Rev. 20:12 says, "And I saw the dead, small and great, STAND before God…" These peoples have been resurrected. Now just how the "dead" can also "stand" will be explained later. But nonetheless, these are all standing before God. They have been resurrected from the dead, and they now possess SPIRITUAL BODIES, because Paul tells us that in the resurrection people are raised with a spiritual body, and spiritual bodies CAN’T DIE, so all of mankind raised at the great white throne judgment will never ever pass out of existence again. Not even the SECOND death will destroy them—it will harm them, but it will not torture, destroy, or annihilate them.
Make no mistake about it, what God is creating is SPIRITUAL and eternal. But first He created the physical and the temporary. He has dealt with the physical and temporary in the past, and will get do so in the future, but the time will come when God will do away with physical things, and then all will be spiritual. There was an OLD Covenant and now there is a NEW Covenant. The first was based solely on the physical and temporary promises, whereas the second is based on SPIRITUAL AND PERMANENT promises!
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So, is Sodom right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Is Jerusalem of old right now suffering in some fabled hell fires? NO. Will Sodom and Jerusalem be saved TOGETHER? YES, in the second resurrection, at the white throne judgment, in the lake of fire. The lake of divine spiritual fire will bring salvation to ALL THE NATIONS! "…but he himself [whomever of the billions of people purged in God’s spiritual fire] shall be SAVED; yet so as BY [God’s spiritual consuming] FIRE"! (I Cor. 3:15).
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Remember that there are two administrations of God’s purging fire: The first is on the House of God consisting of those whom God is calling to be overcomers and sons of God. The second will be at the second resurrection and white throne judgment in the lake of God’s divine purging fire. All the children of the bondwoman, the Old Covenant, the Mother Whore with her harlot daughters, will one day be the children of Heavenly Jerusalem Above, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL!
This seems to tie in with what you said Arcturus about the dead being judged.
These peoples have been resurrected. Now just how the "dead" can also "stand" will be explained later. But nonetheless, these are all standing before God.
This seems to say that the house of God goes through judgment before death.
Remember that there are two administrations of God’s purging fire: The first is on the House of God consisting of those whom God is calling to be overcomers and sons of God. The second will be at the second resurrection and white throne judgment in the lake of God’s divine purging fire.
That's confusing when reading this scripture which you mentioned Arcturus.
Heb 9 : 27 And just as it is appointed for all men once to die, and after that the certain judgement...
In LOF 12 Ray says this
"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"
This is not a quote, but I think Ray said on one of the audio tapes that the elect are given a deposit of a little bit of life or something like that. I don't know where to find that again.
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Hi Gena,
I understand your confusion, I think we all have ideas that we learned in the church, on this matter,
and it is difficult to purge our minds and just believe the scripture on this.
There are a few things I think I understand. You were saying...
Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign? If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect. Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.
I do not believe there will be billions of people on earth when Christ returns. That was indicated in Ray's Towers article. There will be a great slaughter before His return.
This scripture is talking about Christ's return.
Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
And as for the 1000 years, it is not literal. It means it will take what ever amount of time it takes, from a day to a thousand years or more.
2Peter 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The elect do not have to die, if they are alive at His appearing.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. WE shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
Concerning the Great White Throne Judgment, you have to look carefully at the scripture on this,
and still it is not real clear to me now.
Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they will come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and will recline in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And behold, there are last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last.
I think those who are weeping and gnashing teeth, are those after being cast into the Lake of fire and are still in judgment, this is their going throught the second death.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
So I would think the second death is those that came up in the GWT, were cast into the Lake of fire, and are then being purged and must die to self (second death).
There will be those who have been judged and are then in the kingdom ahead of others, I think that is what is being indicated in Luke 13:30 "...last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last."
So it seems like people will be brought into the kingdom as soon as they are totally purged and spiritually ready, then they will be saved and enter the kingdom, as Luke 13:29 says they will be coming from all direction and as they are made ready, to then be changed to spirit and brought to enter the kingdom.
Well that's just what it seems like to me right now.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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This is so fascinating. I can never get a handle on the "logistics" of GWT, LOF, 1st resur.,
1,000 year reign.
Are we sure there is a literal 1,000 year reign?
I believe as Ray teaches, that we should not take the Bible literally but that it is a parable.
If only the elect have risen to reign tht would mean that out of several billion people alive on the earth, none were the elect. Since the elect have to die before they can resurrect.
I see your point G. After giving some time to pondering my own questions, I came up with the fact that the elect die faithful and the called do not. So that cancelled my thought that we are judged when we sleep to make that thought erroneous. There are those of us who are being judged NOW. When we die and once we awake, it will in to the spiritual body and all the others will be resurrected to their judgment at GWT. Now as to whether or not the first resurrection takes place ahead of the second resurrection I do not see this happening. I think this age of the millennium will be a process too not a once off wake up call for the elect and the called and lost.
Then do alll these billions alive and being "reigned upon" by Jesus and the chosen, have to die and then fairly quickly be risen again for the GWT?
I do not think so. I believe that there will be some alive who will not yet have died physically when Jesus returns. Why not?
So then on Dec. 31 at 11:59 everyone dies on the planet and then the GWT begins at 12:00 so they all are vivified???
Hee hee hee G….this digging can produce mud in my eyes too before I can expect to find the real treasure….
And of course satan is let loosed for a season, When?? How does this fit in??
Right? ???
During the GWT what is everyone doing?? Are we in a queue waiting our turn??
You will appear at the High Court of the Universe at in one minute after resurrection!….. :D ;D
How does that work? Alpha order, birth by centuries, degree of meanness in a person?? I am being serious.
Oh I know you are being serious. These are serious questions! I believe that we have to discover the questions before we can appreciate the answers! :D
I don't obsess over this but when it comes up then I start wondering.’s
Oh no! This is my passion. I love this subject and it consumes me….not to the degree that I leave my responsibilities I hope. God has given me a wonderful supportive husband who helps me keep my balance! 8)
Or does EVERYONE who ever lived, died, and raised again all together get on their collective knees to praise the lambkin??
That’s stretching it I think….even for you G! ;D
Or is it all done in a twinkling of the eye.
Jesus does come like a thief in the night so to some that might be in a twinkling of an eye but I think the twinkling part is the change from death to resurrection. The change will be a snap. This reminds me of Ray’s latest teaching on Death.
Or all spiritual and nothing physical.
No. I do not think so. The meek will inherit the earth as in ….earth…but then again, is that symbolic? sorry, but we do have to explore every avenue of consideration!...even if it does seem to lead us back to square one! :-\
if the lake of fire is Jesus and the elect then how long does that all take. Where do the aions of aions fit in here?? Does Hitler, and Joe Dokes get aions of punishment or is it just one look in the lamb's eyes do it for us?? If Hitler has to spend aions to purge him, what does one do who may only need a short while or few lashes.
I believe you have something there. A few v/s many lashes indicating pain and duration of correction right?
Thanks for letting me spout,
Thanks for letting me spout back. :D
I don't expect or need anyone to think they can explain this as it is deep and complex and may just be something to be taken by faith.
I believe Ray could answer our struggles to understand with a long teaching that undoubtedly it would take to sort us out!
Of course I know tht God has this planned and it will work perfectly.
Amen to that 8)
I am sure Revelations is "revealed" only as we can take it in.
I enjoyed our exchange. It cleared up a few things for me and left me with BIGGER questions but also a larger assurance that GOD can do ANYTHING for with God NOTHING is impossible! ;D Phil 4 :13
Kat, MG and all on the thread, thank you for your valuable in put. It further shows the vastness of the territory we are exploring. 8)
If you come up with any more pearls please post again!.... :D...then we can spout some more :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :D