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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on September 01, 2016, 12:19:29 PM
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All-
Does anyone know if Ray taught on what we can eat today, or can we eat anything, including beef and pork.
I know there were Clean and Unclean animals in The Old Testament - but as we are now in The New Testament, I would like to know if these Scriptures apply to us today.
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George
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Roms 14:5-9
"Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living."
Roms14:13-18
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval."
Stello
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Maybe a read through the thread on the law again might help. You are complete in Christ. He is the end of the law and our righteousness. Everything else was but a shadow pointing to Him. He nailed the hand writting ordinances to the cross that were contrary to us.
Colossians 2:10-15
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Enter into His rest George. Be still and know that He is God.
God bless,
Alex
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Acts 10: 13-15. Acts 11:7-9 . Thanks for all the great comments
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Here is Christ's own teaching on clean and unclean meat.
Mark 7:14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
v. 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
v. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
v. 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
v. 18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
v. 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"
v. 20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
Luke 10:8 And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
Everything in the law (including foods) were fulfilled in Christ. Here is what Paul said.
1Cor 10:27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
When Peter was still clinging to the old covenant laws of eating only clean animals, he was told in a vision that he could eat any animal for food on the whole earth.
Acts 10:9 The next day, as they were on their way and coming near Joppa, Peter went up on the roof of the house about noon in order to pray.
v. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat; while the food was being prepared, he had a vision.
v. 11 He saw heaven opened and something coming down that looked like a large sheet being lowered by its four corners to the earth.
v. 12 In it were all kinds of animals, reptiles, and wild birds.
v. 13 A voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat!"
v. 14 But Peter said, "Certainly not, Lord! I have never eaten anything ritually unclean or defiled."
v. 15 The voice spoke to him again, "Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean." (GNB)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I'll only add this: The Lord didn't specifically tell Peter that he could eat any any animal for food on the whole earth. He said, "Arise, Peter. Kill and eat." Then once again he argued with the Lord in his own righteousness--just as he did when the Lord told him he would deny Him.
Kinda makes you wonder why the Lord gave the keys to the Kingdom to this guy. ;) Or maybe not.
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Dave, that was hilarious. :)
Just to bring up one thing to make this a little muddy, Acts 19 says in talking about the Gentiles-
20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
but then later Paul says to not worry about food from idols. My paraphrase version is if it's not sin to you, then it's not sin.
So, I don't know what to think of the blood issue and I know this has to do with pagan worship.
Funny, I know Christians who are vegetarians because they think that's what Adam and Eve ate, and I know Christians that eat everything from the land and animals because it's biblical. So, I eat whatever I think is good for me that man hasn't polluted. ;)
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for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:17
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Dave, that was hilarious. :)
Just to bring up one thing to make this a little muddy, Acts 19 says in talking about the Gentiles-
20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
but then later Paul says to not worry about food from idols. My paraphrase version is if it's not sin to you, then it's not sin.
So, I don't know what to think of the blood issue and I know this has to do with pagan worship.
Funny, I know Christians who are vegetarians because they think that's what Adam and Eve ate, and I know Christians that eat everything from the land and animals because it's biblical. So, I eat whatever I think is good for me that man hasn't polluted. ;)
Acts 15:5 But some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and told to obey the Law of Moses."
Acts 15:19 "It is my opinion," James went on, "that we should not trouble the Gentiles who are turning to God.
v. 20 Instead, we should write a letter telling them not to eat any food that is ritually unclean because it has been offered to idols; to keep themselves from sexual immorality; and not to eat any animal that has been strangled, or any blood.
You know when you think about it, these Jews were bringing in Gentile converts, and there was a very big difference in how they observed rituals and things. Gentiles commonly drank blood in their ceremonies, where as Jews were very strict in not doing so (Gen 9:4), it was quite repugnant to them... so the strangling was keeping the blood in the animals, not properly blood out as the Jews would.
So I believe what was said in that verse was an attempt to try to bring the two groups of believers together, so at first to deal with their differences in the most harmonious way they could.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Works for me, Kat !
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Hello Everybody
We first come across the “clean and unclean” division in Genesis 7, where Noah was directed to make a difference between the number of which animals that were to go on board the ark. Noah knew how to differentiate.
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Later, comprehensive instructions in Leviticus 11 were given by God to delineate what creatures were suitable for eating. God went into detail - it was not just a “throw-away” line here and there. We too easily overlook the word “abomination” ……
Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Lev 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
In Leviticus 11, we read the word “abomination” 8 times! I think we need to keep that well and truly in mind and ask ourselves why God would have used that term.
As we read through Leviticus, we can recognise that God is addressing matters which bear upon the health and well-being of human beings which He has designed - to avoid illnesses, the spread of disease.
How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup? Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them. Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease. They remain, in the world’s eyes, a “delicacy”. Should we “enjoy the world’s standards” and promote them?
A health inspector I once knew, told us that he always wore gloves when called upon to examine the insides of the carcase of pigs, as in almost every case, he would find lesions/cancerous growths and did not wish to be contaminated by them. Many animals, such as the pig, rabbit eat their own faeces…….that alone should alert us to their questionable food value, despite their
“tastiness”.
Lev 11:26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not cloven-footed, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
God was giving the people a lesson in hygiene, because He loved them (and loves us) and wishes for us to avoid illnesses.
Lev 11:32 And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
What’s that a lesson about? Cleanliness – we use cleaned utensils to cook in today, clean plates to eat off - don’t we?
Lev 11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
Lev 11:34 Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
We avoid contaminated water today…..something that God warned about a long time ago.
Lev 11:35 And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
Lev 11:37 And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
Lev 11:38 But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:39 And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:40 And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
The whole topic is “staying healthy”. It certainly is part of the “law of Moses”, as some would categorise it…..but does it make sense to abrogate ANY of these “health laws”?
In a figurative sense we too are being “brought out of Egypt (Babylon)” and the same principles apply.
Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lev 11:46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
God, next in Leviticus 13, deals with skin complaints and the theme of quarantine of those with contagious diseases. It is instruction which, again, comes from a loving God for our health benefits. Do we rescind those laws/statutes, simply because they are from the “old Covenant”? Ask your local hospital staff!
Lev 13:1 - 59 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying……
Next, we find another topic relating to health matters….namely that of mould, which can cause serious and life-threatening problems.
Lev 14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 14:35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
Lev 14:43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
Lev 14:44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
And the point of it all? For the benefit of living well and not becoming ill, or worse.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
What came next? Rules regarding sex, incestuous relationships etc. Should these be ”scrapped” because they are part of the “law of Moses”?
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Would the apostles have ever had in mind to suggest that these “laws of Moses” be abandoned when they sent Judas and Silas to the Gentiles? I don’t think so. I think the same applies to eating “unclean meats”.
The matter of what to eat and to avoid eating is repeated (as a second witness) in Deuteronomy 14. Again, we find that word “abominable”.
Deut 14:3 Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
Deut 14:21 Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Were they then, really “a holy people”? Not really - but they were intended to be - and to be a “type” for us, as Paul wrote.
In the future we read that there will be lessons again taught when it comes to separating the clean from the unclean.
Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
The case of Peter’s vision has been raised:
Act 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Did Peter immediately go to the meat vendor and order a Camel burger? No - he rather understand the intent of the vision.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
When we come to the account where Jesus spoke of “being defiled” - not by what we eat, it is easy to misuse this and to think “anything may be eaten with God’s blessing”. What is the core of what Jesus said to the Pharisees?
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Jesus “looked within”…….past their “outward appearance of supposed righteousness” and put His finger on what defiles….
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
If we come to the conclusion that all He was saying is, “we can eat whatever we like”…..we have missed the boat.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Well, fancy that….ANOTHER parable. And as Ray warned us, don’t take parables literally, if you want to “see behind it”.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
If we eat something which is not good for us physically, it will “come out” eventually! Maybe immediately! But our “rotten nature” is what we need to be more aware of and concerned about - that is not so easy to be rid of!
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that [is what] defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
We find a parallel account in Mathew 15.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
What a surprise - the Pharisees were upset! Why? They looked to their dietary strictness “as a measure of their righteousness”. We could fall into the same trap, if by avoiding unclean meats, we feel exonerated….or self-righteous.
Does that make it right to eat unclean meats? No - it doesn’t….the “abomination” clause still applies, but if we think that by not eating pork or shellfish, that that makes us “undefiled” then we have missed the lesson of Jesus’ parable. Our diet can affect our physical health, but it does nothing to offset the “inner” things which really defile.
Jesus went on to say, “leave them alone, those who cannot see”.
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
And then….Peter (like some of us) turned around and said “what does it all mean”?
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
I have a suspicion that Peter was the one to whom that vision was given in such a way, that Peter would have the lesson “driven home”.
Colin
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Hello Everybody
We first come across the “clean and unclean” division in Genesis 7, where Noah was directed to make a difference between the number of which animals that were to go on board the ark. Noah knew how to differentiate.
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Later, comprehensive instructions in Leviticus 11 were given by God to delineate what creatures were suitable for eating. God went into detail - it was not just a “throw-away” line here and there. We too easily overlook the word “abomination” ……
Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Lev 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
In Leviticus 11, we read the word “abomination” 8 times! I think we need to keep that well and truly in mind and ask ourselves why God would have used that term.
As we read through Leviticus, we can recognise that God is addressing matters which bear upon the health and well-being of human beings which He has designed - to avoid illnesses, the spread of disease.
How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup? Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them. Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease. They remain, in the world’s eyes, a “delicacy”. Should we “enjoy the world’s standards” and promote them?
A health inspector I once knew, told us that he always wore gloves when called upon to examine the insides of the carcase of pigs, as in almost every case, he would find lesions/cancerous growths and did not wish to be contaminated by them. Many animals, such as the pig, rabbit eat their own faeces…….that alone should alert us to their questionable food value, despite their
“tastiness”.
Lev 11:26 The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not cloven-footed, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
God was giving the people a lesson in hygiene, because He loved them (and loves us) and wishes for us to avoid illnesses.
Lev 11:32 And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
What’s that a lesson about? Cleanliness – we use cleaned utensils to cook in today, clean plates to eat off - don’t we?
Lev 11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
Lev 11:34 Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
We avoid contaminated water today…..something that God warned about a long time ago.
Lev 11:35 And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
Lev 11:37 And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
Lev 11:38 But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
Lev 11:39 And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 11:40 And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
The whole topic is “staying healthy”. It certainly is part of the “law of Moses”, as some would categorise it…..but does it make sense to abrogate ANY of these “health laws”?
In a figurative sense we too are being “brought out of Egypt (Babylon)” and the same principles apply.
Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lev 11:46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
God, next in Leviticus 13, deals with skin complaints and the theme of quarantine of those with contagious diseases. It is instruction which, again, comes from a loving God for our health benefits. Do we rescind those laws/statutes, simply because they are from the “old Covenant”? Ask your local hospital staff!
Lev 13:1 - 59 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying……
Next, we find another topic relating to health matters….namely that of mould, which can cause serious and life-threatening problems.
Lev 14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 14:35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
Lev 14:43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
Lev 14:44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house: it is unclean.
Lev 18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
And the point of it all? For the benefit of living well and not becoming ill, or worse.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
What came next? Rules regarding sex, incestuous relationships etc. Should these be ”scrapped” because they are part of the “law of Moses”?
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.
Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Would the apostles have ever had in mind to suggest that these “laws of Moses” be abandoned when they sent Judas and Silas to the Gentiles? I don’t think so. I think the same applies to eating “unclean meats”.
The matter of what to eat and to avoid eating is repeated (as a second witness) in Deuteronomy 14. Again, we find that word “abominable”.
Deut 14:3 Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
Deut 14:21 Ye shall not eat of anything that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Were they then, really “a holy people”? Not really - but they were intended to be - and to be a “type” for us, as Paul wrote.
In the future we read that there will be lessons again taught when it comes to separating the clean from the unclean.
Eze 44:15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
The case of Peter’s vision has been raised:
Act 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
Act 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Did Peter immediately go to the meat vendor and order a Camel burger? No - he rather understand the intent of the vision.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
When we come to the account where Jesus spoke of “being defiled” - not by what we eat, it is easy to misuse this and to think “anything may be eaten with God’s blessing”. What is the core of what Jesus said to the Pharisees?
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Jesus “looked within”…….past their “outward appearance of supposed righteousness” and put His finger on what defiles….
Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
If we come to the conclusion that all He was saying is, “we can eat whatever we like”…..we have missed the boat.
Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
Well, fancy that….ANOTHER parable. And as Ray warned us, don’t take parables literally, if you want to “see behind it”.
Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
If we eat something which is not good for us physically, it will “come out” eventually! Maybe immediately! But our “rotten nature” is what we need to be more aware of and concerned about - that is not so easy to be rid of!
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that [is what] defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
We find a parallel account in Mathew 15.
Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
What a surprise - the Pharisees were upset! Why? They looked to their dietary strictness “as a measure of their righteousness”. We could fall into the same trap, if by avoiding unclean meats, we feel exonerated….or self-righteous.
Does that make it right to eat unclean meats? No - it doesn’t….the “abomination” clause still applies, but if we think that by not eating pork or shellfish, that that makes us “undefiled” then we have missed the lesson of Jesus’ parable. Our diet can affect our physical health, but it does nothing to offset the “inner” things which really defile.
Jesus went on to say, “leave them alone, those who cannot see”.
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
And then….Peter (like some of us) turned around and said “what does it all mean”?
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
I have a suspicion that Peter was the one to whom that vision was given in such a way, that Peter would have the lesson “driven home”.
Colin
Colin, just to clarify, are you saying people would be wise to abide by the levitical laws?
You said,
"How many of us would sit up to, say, a bowl of fricassee of rat (nicely cooked) or dog-stew or vulture soup? Our own sense of hygiene would cause us to think twice, yet many ingest creatures which by their design are scavengers, who concentrate pathogens within their digestive systems and we can become quickly infected by dining on them. Oysters are a prime example and have caused serious outbreaks of fatal disease. They remain, in the world’s eyes, a “delicacy”. Should we “enjoy the world’s standards” and promote them? "
Oysters cause problems because they are not COOKED. When you COOK food, it destroys 99.9% of the possible pathogens. Your bodies acidic stomach, ph of 2, does the rest. This too, God made. Most get sick because they either don't cook or eat under cooked meals. There are rare exceptions but I will leave them as exceptions because in that case it has nothing to do with the animal species itself.
Since I'm not certain entirely what you are trying to say, I will re-iterate that Jesus nailed the handwriting ordinances--which was those things not written on stone tablets, these Leviticus laws--To the cross. That's scripture. So these laws were abrogated by Jesus who fulfilled the law. So I don't see how the abomination claw still applies.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 14 which was already shared by stello and john above makes a good point on this subject. Jesus too by stating that it isn't what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out. In other words, don't worry about those levitical laws as trying to keep them is nothing but filthy rags.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
God bless,
Alex
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Colin, it can't mean that we are confined to the old testament dietary rules. The law was for a certain people at a certain time and we are not bound by it. We have a higher 'law' written on our hearts. Do you also obey the sabbath rules? What is the difference? I'll be out of my depth here in a minute so this will be short.
I know some men who are adamant about circumcision - both for and against. We are Not bound to do it but there are some very sound medical reasons to have it done. But we are not Jews before the death of Christ and we can do as we please. Again, what is the difference? And did you know when a woman has her period, she is unclean for seven days according to the Law- not only that but you cannot even Touch her? For 7 days. I guess I could find out from the Hebrew what 'touched' meant in this context but I think it was just plain touching. I don't know about you, but my husband would touch me. No impurity there.
I do know that pigs and shellfish are scavengers and some stay away from eating them for that reason. That is a biological reason, a dietary reason, but not a spiritual one- at least not one that God has bound on you. So eat, or don't eat. You are free to do either and not bind your choices on anyone. You can share them- give someone something to think about- but you cannot bind them.
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Anybody have eyes and ears?
Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
I see Matthew 12:8 as a spiritual match to Acts 10:15 The voice spoke to him again, "Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean.", and the passages they come from are quite similar as well, with Peter playing the role of the Pharisees.
While it's true that the vision in Acts 10 down to the number of times it "played out" refers to the visitors soon to be at the door, it's not wise to stop reading there either. There were consequences to the acceptance of these Gentiles, as Peter also mentioned that it was unlawful for him to receive them. Yet he did because the Lord of the Law showed him to do it. Some may imagine Peter quaking in his boots at this. I have a different opinion of just how glad he was to "disobey the law" and obey the Lord.
Further, there were consequences of the overall acceptance of the Gentiles and the "crises" it brought about among the Apostles and elders. Much of Paul's writing directly bears on these things. Ray taught quite a bit about this conference and it's effect. You can't just stop reading (not even in Leviticus) when digging for the greater truth.
As Ray taught, it's fine to study the law, but if we do so with the intention of trying to physically keep it, we are missing the point. I'd rather eat a platter-full of meats that are abominable to me than miss out on higher obedience.
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All-
Does anyone know if Ray taught on what we can eat today, or can we eat anything, including beef and pork.
I know there were Clean and Unclean animals in The Old Testament - but as we are now in The New Testament, I would like to know if these Scriptures apply to us today.
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George
George, yes Ray taught a little on this. I apologize that nobody so far (including me) has either been able to locate such places or has done so yet.
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Here is an email from Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1186.msg10634.html#msg10634
I'm a little mixed up on a certain topic. What does the bible say about eating meat?
Does God want us to kill and eat animals? Thank you for taking the time to read this
email and hopefully responding.
Sincerely,
Matt
Dear Matt:
Eating meat is fine. Why even the Passover Lamb was eaten, as were other sacrifices of animals. Herding was a major profession among God's people, Israel. In the Prodigal the father killed the fatted calf, etc., etc., etc.
God be with you,
Ray
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I get it that eating the "unclean meats" is not a sin. However, I still feel like they are disgusting meats to eat and not healthy. Maybe it was too many years in the Worldwide Church of God.
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George:
I personally cannot eat pork because of preexisting health conditions, so a lot of it comes down to my own physical health status. The Lord causes me to pray each day that all our food goes through our systems safely. He is Faithful and True!
Dean
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Hi Doug,
I have the same problem. Regarding pork and shell fish. I do like a cool beer however.
We used to substitute veggie bacon bits for the real thing but even those taste spoiled or stale now. When we go to Ponderosa for the senior salad bar they put bacon grease in the green beans to enhance the flavor, a benefit which for me is entirely unnecessary. I love green beans with just a little salt, but now I have to eat broccoli instead.
I-bob
I get it that eating the "unclean meats" is not a sin. However, I still feel like they are disgusting meats to eat and not healthy. Maybe it was too many years in the Worldwide Church of God.
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Hello Alex
Quote : Since I'm not certain entirely what you are trying to say, I will re-iterate that Jesus nailed the handwriting of ordinances--which were those things not written on stone tablets, these Leviticus laws--To the cross. That's scripture. So these laws were abrogated by Jesus who fulfilled the law. So I don't see how the abomination clause still applies. [end of quote]
Hi Alex, the reason why you are unable to see how the term abomination is still applicable is due to reading Colossians 2:14 incorrectly. If you have E-Sword, as I do, you will find the following
Col 2:14 Blotting outG1813 theG3588 handwritingG5498 of ordinancesG1378 that was againstG2596 us,G2257 whichG3739 wasG2258 contraryG5227 to us,G2254 andG2532 tookG142 itG846 out ofG1537 theG3588 way,G3319 nailingG4338 itG846 to his cross;G4716
The Greek word cheirographon is translated “handwriting” and we are given this information:
G5498 Χειρόγραφον cheirographon Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.
The Greek word dogma is translated “ordinances” and we are given this information :
G1378 Δόγμα dogma From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
In olden times, it was the custom to have a list of infractions, committed by felons, nailed up publicly to declare, to one and all, what a convicted person was guilty of. It does not take too much effort for us to see how this example has been used to demonstrate how Christ “blotted out” our sins and that He did so by dying for us, as a sin offering, on the cross.
G1813 ἐξαλείφω exaleiphō From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.
Jesus said that He came neither to “destroy”, pull down, nor obliterate the law – nor the prophets. Whereas He did come to “take away our sins”…..smear out, or wipe away the list of our sins. Once you see that difference, Alex, things will “clear up”. Ray spoke of this in several of his papers.
The misuse of Colossians 2:14 has led many into confusion. Christ said that not one jot or tittle of the law will “disappear” until ALL be fulfilled. We are to obey those same laws, which Jesus gave to Moses, but, as we now better comprehend from the Sermon on the Mount, they are to be kept “in the spirit”.
When it comes to the laws of hygiene, cleanliness, it becomes a little harder perhaps to see how to observe them without doing so literally, such as abstaining from unhygienic practices or declining to eat prohibited unclean meat.
As I tried to clarify how I viewed this thread, I showed where Leviticus 11 was only a part of the section which covered healthy living, the avoidance of contagious diseases and perverted sexual practices, which are found mentioned in this same Old Testament book. I proposed the idea that God (Jesus) gave those to Moses from a loving concern He had for the people He was dealing with.
I cannot separate our benefiting from following those statutes by imagining we can avoid such problems if we ignore any of those statutes. I am glad that a doctor or dentist "scrubs up" after he has dealt with a prior patient, before he pokes his finger in my mouth, for example. Cleanliness is one of the points covered in Leviticus.
Have any heard or read about Ignaz Semmelweis? He was a Hungarian doctor who was instrumental in saving many new mothers from dying from puerperal disease because he taught doctors to wash after they had done an autopsy and who then had proceeded immediately to assist at birthing.....a life-saving technique, straight from "Moses". You can "Google" Semmelweis.....for an interesting read.
We, with a spiritual attitude, can approach those statutes from a different level of understanding and gratitude, by acknowledging that God (Jesus) instructed out of love and not as a “harsh kill-joy”.
Anything mentioned in scripture as an abomination remains in that category, I feel, until such time it is unquestionably turned into something “UNabominable”. Certain verse in the New Testament appear to do that, as some have indicated - but on closer inspection, that is not the case. I will offer them in a separate post for discussion.
I, in no way, wish to be viewed as criticizing or being demeaning towards any who see things differently. All I wanted to do was to contribute to the forum how I see things and leave it up to members/readers to be convinced/convicted one way or the other.
As a medical-man-in-training, Alex, I take your point with regard to the effect of cooking to destroy (sometimes only partially) pathogens which are likely to lead to illness. I have been involved in bacteriology during my working life and always kept the “little critters” at arm’s length. I would hesitate to say it dogmatically, but guess that most people do NOT cook their oysters. It is a well-known fact that restaurateurs are keenly aware of the worrisome quick spoilage of sea-food and they are likely to “quickly hit the panic button” if they hear of food poisoning from anybody who has eaten seafood (prawns, crabs) at their establishment.
When it comes to the statute given in Deuteronomy 23:13 of covering over human waste I am in full agreement…..how about you? I can’t see how we comply without literally doing it (these days most use flush toilets – it’s the same principle however) – that certainly is something I would NOT argue needs “doing away with”. For many years, that was an underlying reason for plagues in large cities, where filth flowed in the streets.
I will not attempt in this posting to answer points raised by others who responded to my earlier post, but will try to do so, briefly, "next time". Colin
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Hi Collin,
I have a second witness to Collosions which states the exact same thing and removes all ambiguity about just what these ordinances are.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Now 'law of commandments' does not sound like 'infraction tickets' to me. It does not sound like we are talking about our sins here. No, not at all. The two witnesses speak the truth.
Here is what ray said on the matter of ordinances.
---------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165
COMMENT: Oh really? "The LAW was nailed to the cross," was it? And do you have chapter and verse on that bit of unscriptural nonsense Col 2:14 "Blotting out THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." God never nailed His "LAW" to the cross. The Covenant Law which IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS was not a "handwriting of ordinances," but was rather chiseled IN STONE, and was placed IN the ark of the Covenant, not on the OUTSIDE of the ark as were the ordinances. You have not a clue as to what you are talking about.
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Now I do not believe a record of past sins what kept beside the arc. No. It was the rest of the laws given to moses not chiseled in stone like the ten commandments (2 Cor 3:7).
Deuteronomy 31:24-26
When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end, Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, “Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.
There they are. WRITTEN in a BOOK by Moses! So we have a book of laws placed beside the arc which contains hand written ordinances. These ordinances were none other than all those other laws ("law of commandments" -- Eph 2:15) such as found in leveticus that were not ethe ten commandents because those were kept INSIDE the arc and were engrave onto two tablets of STONE.
1 Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
Hebrews 9:4 containing the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
You are right that Jesus did not come to destroy the prophets nor the law but He did come to fulfill and so He has.
God bless,
Alex
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I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones. I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.
God's Elect are taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Physical religious teachers have no understanding.
Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are Life.
The Old Covenant and teachings are done away. Clean and unclean meats refer to the difference between the Elect and those not chosen at this time. Jesus fulfilled all things in Himself.
Jesus has set us free from the false teachings of the great false church and its teacher Satan.
Do not allow false teachers to imprison you if Jesus has set you free.
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Hi Family, I would like to throw my two cents in here. My understanding of clean and unclean meats is as John from Kentucky says and also we are not to take on the character of these unclean aaimals, like the swine swallows in the mirer, we are not to wallow in our sins or be greedy. We are not to be like a dog that goes back to it's vomit. I have looked up the meanings of the animals that are clean and unclean, and I have come to understand by the Grace of God that it is the character of these ainamls that we are to avoid, we are to have the mind of Christ and He was represented by a Lamb. I believe that is what Jesus meant when He said it is not what goes into the body, but what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.
Clean meats represent good behaviour and a Christlike attitude towards God and man.
I hope I don't sound teachy, but this is how I understand clean and unclean meats as spiritual and not physcial. The physcial profits nothing.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus,
Virginia Miller
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John and Virginia- I never looked at it that way. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
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I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones. I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.
Don't get caught up in overstatement, John. Ray Smith went into great detail pointing out truths only apparent in the original languages. Still, I'm fully convinced that Spiritual eyes and ears have been opened when all that was available was the KJV.
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Hi Alex
Quote: lilitalienboi16 Re: Clean Meat and Unclean Meat « Reply #20 on: 4th September 2016 at 02:04:47 AM » Hi Colin, I have a second witness to Colossians which states the exact same thing and removes all ambiguity about just what these ordinances are.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Now 'law of commandments' does not sound like 'infraction tickets' to me. It does not sound like we are talking about our sins here. No, not at all. [end of quote]
You have been much too superficial in your reading of the passage in Ephesians 2, Alex. Picking out one solitary verse often causes one to lose the theme or the topic under consideration. Let’s ask, what specifically was Paul addressing here? Paul begins his discussion in verse 11.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Paul is making a contrast, isn’t he? Between how the Gentiles USED to be and what they had become then – no longer separated, but unified.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both [Jews and Gentiles] one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [the words between us are in italics and have been added by translators].
What exactly was the “middle wall” of partition”? The Greek is mesotoichon …….the type is seen in the stone palisade, about three cubits high, which separated the Court of the Gentiles from that of the Jews, to pass which was death to any Gentile.
And how had that come about? Paul goes on to explain:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments [Greek entole] contained in ordinances [Greek dogma] ; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
WHAT was abolished or done away? The ENMITY. And Paul equates that as being the “law of commandments contained in ordinances”.
ἐντολή entolē From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.
Δόγμα dogma From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
And what was the purpose of abolishing this enmity, in other words, abolishing the authoritative decrees?
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both [Jews and Gentiles] unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity [Greek echthra] thereby:
ἔχθρα echthra Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition: - enmity, hatred.
It was to RECONCILE. As the last part of the verse says, to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
That’s what Ephesians 2 is all about. It does NOT support your ideas, Alex and John.
If my explaining the Greek is a bother to you John, then what did you think when Ray did the very same thing? I am trying to follow his example…..not lean to my own understanding (Prov. 3:5-7).
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Whatever made you think that you had a “back-up” in quoting Ephesians 2?
You are also trying to “compare apples with oranges”, when you referred us : Here is what Ray said on the matter of ordinances. --------- http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5813.msg47165.html#msg47165 [end of quote]
I read the entire interchange between Ray and Jason and it centred on Jason’s ideas about “legality” and homosexuality - does not have any relevance to our discussion.
Alex, you are quite correct when you point out the difference between the Ten Commandments being INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant and the “book of the Law” being by the side of the ark.
What is your point? I cannot see what that has to do with whether such items in the “book of the law”, such as the injunction against eating unclean meats, aspects of hygiene and cleanliness, contagious diseases and sex perversion – all of which I have mentioned before – were ever considered by Jesus as fit to be discarded…..so that we can supposedly be “freed” from such commands.
Such a line of thinking is one which I expect to be coming from Satan, as it would hasten the demise of any nation.
In fact, by being on the OUTSIDE, the “book of the law” was more readily available for consultation.
Furthermore, we can read of the reaction when that book was discovered and taken to the king of the day, Josiah. See 2 Kings 22:8-13 Colin
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Colin, you've also quit reading too soon, but I can't drag up the entirety of Scripture in a forum post even if I were wise enough to locate all the pertinent Scripture attached to these.
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Is becoming like "them that were nigh" the true meaning of "reconciliation" here? Why would He come to preach peace to "them that were nigh" if that were the case? The "circumcision in the flesh made by hands" is no profit. Neither is "un-circumcision in the flesh". "We" gentiles don't become "saints" by taking on the physical practices of the Jews any more than they become saints by taking on the physical practices of the Gentiles. We all become one because we both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father. The circumcision made without hands. Knowing that the Law is Spiritual. Saved by grace, through faith...and that, not of ourselvfes...not of works, lest any man should boast. Etc. Etc. Etc. This is how Gentiles in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit. Guess what? This is also how JEWS in the flesh become Jews in the Spirit.
Peter put it like this:
Act 10:47 Can anyone forbid the water that these not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit received, even as we also?
And again and again several times in the same and different words throughout the remainder of Acts.
Now I don't doubt that there is wisdom in these "handwriting of ordinances" in the physical (and huge lessons to be learned in the Spiritual--but who's really interested in that?) But I ask if it is better to be ceremonially clean than to be physically clean? And is it better to be physically clean than Spiritually clean?
Some of the "handwriting of ordinances" CANNOT any longer be physically kept. There is no word in either of the biblical languages which means "forever". Some are covered in the keeping of the 10 Commandments Spiritually (in other words, REALLY, as we know, or ought to know, that the Law is Spiritual). Some seem to have been re-iterated in the Council, but for how long I don't know. Some may even be covered in the wholly encapsulated Law of "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind and thy neighbor as thyself"...especially if we truly do love the Lord with all our MINDS. I'll even go out on a limb further and say there are some we ought NOT to keep.
So what can possibly be the harm in physically keeping these wise ordinances? To the body? Mostly none. Indeed, mostly benefit, I reckon. To the Spirit? If you haven't figured this out, I can't much help you.
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Well Colin, Unfortunately for you, an entire reading of Ephesians changes not the fact that these ordinances were more than 'infraction tickets' or a list of past sins which you tried to claim originally.
Colossians 2:10-15
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
I don't think you understand how to read this verse properly. So let me try a couple others and you will see it changes not the fact that these ordinances contained commandments which we are told were nailed to the cross.
(ISV) He rendered the Law inoperative, along with its commandments and regulations, thus creating in himself one new humanity from the two, thereby making peace,
(ESV) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
GNB) He abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace.
(Rotherham) The enmity, in his flesh—the law of commandments in decrees—bringing to nought,—that, the two, he might create in himself, into one man of new mould, making peace.
(YLT) the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
(CEV) to destroy the Law of Moses with all its rules and commands. He even brought Jews and Gentiles together as though we were only one person, when he united us in peace.
(HCSB) He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace.
Tell me again how all of this does not support that the ordinances, the same greek word as you showed in both passages, was nailed to the cross as shown in Collisions? Why do you think hiding this verse by burying it amongst a larger discussion occurring in the chapter will somehow make your point? Trying to gloss over it changes not the fact of what is stated in the verse.
So now colin you've brought up zero scriptures which suggest we should keep the old Leviticus laws but instead argued with man's wisdom about why we should. However, there are many witnesses against your argument from all throughout the scriptures. Let's take a look at some of them (again).
Hebrews 8:5-12
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The old covenant and all those levitcal laws, those hand written ordinances that were nailed to the cross, all that physical fleshy ritual stuff, is on the verge of vanishing away! Its DECAYING OLD!
Mark 7:15-16
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
Its not what comes from without and enters a man, FOOD, that defiles him!
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with eating and drinking this or that! There is NO unclean meat! Nothing!
You know you're so fond of getting the whole context colin that let me share with you the whole context of Collisions which I failed to due but which may prevented this.
Collisions 2:9-23
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Col 2:23 Such things sound impressive if said in a deep enough voice. They even give the illusion of being pious and humble and ascetic. But they're just another way of showing off, making yourselves look important.
Think the MSG hit that nail on the head.
1 Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
This last one is a warning well to be heeded for all those who think that there is righteousness or any obligiations to be had upon new testament believers in keeping the old laws.
Galatians 5:1-10
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Christ is the end of the law! That includes those levitical laws. His is the body casting the shadow. The reality.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Jesus came to fulfill and He did. It is why He said: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30)
Indeed, it is finished, He is the author and perfecter. We are complete in Him.
Sorry Colin but no amount of worldly wisdom is going to convince me that it is in our best interests to keep the old levitical laws. I will follow God's spirit to where He leads me.
There is safety in the multitude of counselors and I have provided you with a great many of them.
God be with you,
Alex
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We have to consider why the Israelite were given the rules about clean and unclean meat in the first place... wasn't it to teach a lesson about sin through a physical example? Being unclean in all the ordinates given to Israel came in many forms, but it was all ritualistic and the laws concerning clean and unclean meats were no exception. These were unrelated to health, the ordinances given in Leviticus were concerned with ritual uncleanness and ritual purity. An example of this is in Leviticus 11 where even 'contact' with an unclean animal makes a person or an article unclean, and a ritual was needed for cleansing.
Mark 7:18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,
v. 19 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'
Here when Jesus declared all meats clean, He was simply changing the definition of unclean under the new covenant. No longer did unclean refer to the flesh of certain animals, whether one ate with unwashed hands or a woman was having a menstrual flow, etc. Unclean now took on its true meaning... that these physical types were only a shadow to picture sin.
In Acts 10 of course the primary meaning of Peter's vision was that Gentiles were no longer to be considered unclean/unworthy, that God had opened salvation to them also... but that all meats were clean was certainly the secondary implication, how could it be used as the object of the vision otherwise? Christ taught Peter that Gentiles were acceptable by showing him that unclean animals are acceptable. Peter even used the same words "common" (koinos) and "unclean" (akathartos) to describe both the animals and Gentiles.
Acts 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common(G2839) or unclean(G169).
Acts 10:28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common(G2839) or unclean(G169).
It just seems a clear implication that by the comparison that God has made both Gentiles as well as the unclean animals clean.
Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
v. 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Young's)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Re: Clean Meat and unclean meat
1st Timothy 4:1-5
1-Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and the doctrines of devils;
2- Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3-Forbiding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4-For EVERY creature of God is GOOD, and nothing to be refused, IF it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
5-For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Joel
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All -
The Posts have been very enlightening.
Thank you for all of your Posts.
We seem to have a difference of view, in that some, believe The Scriptures confirm that there is no food that is unclean; and others, believe that there are some foods that are still unclean to eat.
I have waited patiently to observe how these Posts would reveal the Truths of Scriptures.
So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):
Acts 15:29 (KJV):
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
1 Timothy 4:3 (KJV):
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Hebrews 9:10 (KJV):
Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 13:9 (KJV):
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Then there are these Scriptures:
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
It appears that the ordinances that no longer apply under The New Covenant include meats - which appear to mean that there are no longer clean and unclean meats.
I wonder why, The New Testament Scriptures do not clearly state that 'there is now no unclean meats for mankind not to eat'.
I have never been one to diet - but lately I have become very mindful about the quality and benefits of the food available to us from our supermarkets, markets and other sources.
I have for many years accepted that as long as we accept the food is good for us with thanksgiving, it is sanctified by Our Heavenly Father; with the exception if it offends a brother or sister at the same table, if it was offered to idols, if it was strangled, and if there was still blood in the meat.
Lately, there is a lot about the food we eat from cans, GMO, etc - and hence I started a new research into the whole thing on what we can eat.
I mean, there are a lot of professing believers who have health issues, including being over weight, having bad circulation, etc - and there are a lot of non meat foods (fruit, berries, leaves, nuts, herbs, etc), that are stated as being very good for the mind and body.
I stopped eating meat a few months ago, and I do not miss it at all. I am not saying I am better in mind and body, but I am certainly not worse.
Once again, thank you all for your Posts - and there have been a number of very good points raised backed up by The Holy Scriptures.
Kind Regards.
George
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...but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Romans 14:2
George, you are free to not eat meat. You are free to eat meat. The New Covenant does not have a bunch of food rules.
The gist of Romans 14 is we are not to judge one another over food matters, and by implication over other minor things.
We are called to peace and freedom in Jesus. The Spirit of God guides us in all things.
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So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):
Hi George, even that last bit in this question, "we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked)" I do not believe is a requirement now... that was to easy the new Gentile converts into socializing with the Jews.
What I believe is that each person must determine for themselves what is the right way to eat and that will differ quite a bit, but nothing we eat is wrong or a sin, now it certainly can become an idol of the heart. Some make a great deal of effort to eat right, where as others don't give what they eat a second thought.
Now is there health considerations? Maybe so, but can any one of us add one hour to our lives by how we eat? Isn't this just another form of trying to control our destiny?
Luke 12:25 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
What I trying to say is how well we eat does not determine that we will live longer or even be healthier, not really... there are thousands of factors that come into play in the circumstances of our health and we do not control any of it. So why burden ourselves with eating rules? And of more concern is why would we want to burden others with 'our' ideas of proper eating?
In the past I have looked into many proper eating/living approaches... in my searches I found more than I could possibly read on a great number of different topics of healthy living. I soon began finding contradictory information and differences in what degrees and how one should even apply certain methods... the more I read the more bogged down in all the info and confused I became. I began to realize that the nutritionist experts were all extremist in their own area of knowledge.
But I'm not necessarily saying throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. What I do now is just eat what seems sensible to me, I do the best I can in my particular life circumstances and eat certain things in moderation. But even this idea is not for everybody, to each his own... anyway it is not up to us what God has in store for us by the choices we make.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Colin, I attempted in my last post to "answer" your questions about serious sins mentioned in these ordinances. Let me try again being a bit more specific.
I've made no secret over the years here that essentially what I am running in my life is an "experiment". It's not enough for me to have "doctrine" down pat. I want to know from experience what all these truths in the Scripture are about. I'm a bit of a special case (there's an understatement for ya). I didn't come "here" thinking I just needed a little trim around the edges. I am/have been full to overflowing with all manner of sin. You don't want to be me. But if it's true that where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, I'm a pretty good case-study. He's got a LOT to work with. HUGE sample-size.
On that score, let me tell you two things.
1. The greatest and most hurtful "lusts" I have both battled and wallowed in are not all specifically "forbidden" by any law or ordinance--Old Testament or new. Yet even a babe in understanding can see the "spirit" behind the words of Christ concerning them. The whole of the law IS encapsulated in the two great commandments. Why would any believer who has any measure of the Spirit of God need a law that condemns sex with animals? I think anybody who does cannot call themselves "converted".
2. I've found over time that the more I resist the many pulls of carnal religion and place my FAITH in the Savior, the looser the grip other lusts have over me. This is NOT the way of the world or of worldly religion. You know this. I had my first brush with this when I was 18, but the heat came and I withered. This is quite the opposite of the way of the world and religion, and as an "observer" of my own life, it surprised me at first. Now I've grown more comfortable with it. I can't explain it any other way than that...He is working in me to both will and do His good pleasure. That He's got His work cut out for Him goes without saying, but what is impossible for a man is possible with God.
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Perhaps we could gain a little more understanding of the physical aspects of this clean meat question by inquiring of the very young among us.
This little girl is obviously emotional in her responses, but it seems quite natural to feel that way. And I sympathize...because I was once young myself. ;)
I-bob
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kind-hearted-girl-explains-why-000700805.html
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Kat -
Thank you for pointing this out:
So I am asking - as we are still flesh and blood today, what, if anything, do we need to not eat - and I know that we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked):
Hi George, even that last bit in this question, "we not to eat anything that has been strangled, and I believe we must ensure that we do not eat the blood of the animals (so I assume it must not be cooked raw, or semi-raw, but actually cooked)" I do not believe is a requirement now... that was to easy the new Gentile converts into socializing with the Jews.
What I believe is that each person must determine for themselves what is the right way to eat and that will differ quite a bit, but nothing we eat is wrong or a sin, now it certainly can become an idol of the heart. Some make a great deal of effort to eat right, where as others don't give what they eat a second thought.
Now is there health considerations? Maybe so, but can any one of us add one hour to our lives by how we eat? Isn't this just another form of trying to control our destiny?
Luke 12:25 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?
What I trying to say is how well we eat does not determine that we will live longer or even be healthier, not really... there are thousands of factors that come into play in the circumstances of our health and we do not control any of it. So why burden ourselves with eating rules? And of more concern is why would we want to burden others with 'our' ideas of proper eating?
In the past I have looked into many proper eating/living approaches... in my searches I found more than I could possibly read on a great number of different topics of healthy living. I soon began finding contradictory information and differences in what degrees and how one should even apply certain methods... the more I read the more bogged down in all the info and confused I became. I began to realize that the nutritionist experts were all extremist in their own area of knowledge.
But I'm not necessarily saying throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. What I do now is just eat what seems sensible to me, I do the best I can in my particular life circumstances and eat certain things in moderation. But even this idea is not for everybody, to each his own... anyway it is not up to us what God has in store for us by the choices we make.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
These 'specialist' contradictions is the reason I asked the question in the first place - as I wanted to know what the Truth of this matter is from God's revealed Word.
We all know that He is in control of all things and is 'responsible' for all things - including what we should eat.
If our food is being poisoned and contaminated for evil purposes to keep us sickly and dumbed down - what are the 'called out called out ones' to do about it - for themselves and those they pray for - plus the others who are currently lost.
If by prayer, these poisons / chemicals cannot harm the 'called out called out ones' and those they pray for - what about the lost - does Our Heavenly Father Will that these are inflicted so, as part of their experiencing the 'knowledge of good and evil'.
Or, is the food fine, and we are being lied to to keep us in fear and timid.
I suppose, it is similar to raise the issue of our poor brothers and sisters who struggle in pain with lack of food and proper healthcare / medicine - probably one of the most raised questions by those who doubt there is a loving God, because of all the evil in the world.
Maybe, it is as simple as 'who am I to question why are things thus, and why has He worked out for these things to be thus at this time'.
After all, He has promised to 'feed' us, like He does the birds - and we should not worry about such things.
Maybe, this whole 'good food' issue, is one method He uses for mankind to focus on 'why we are here, and is this all here by accident, or by design - and if by design - should I / we seek the Truth of these things - and ask the giver of life why?'.
Cancer and Dementia are very big concerns today, and 'treatments' do not 'cure' these - yet the Old Testament promises health to our bodies and minds if we obey His Commandments - and there are natural remedies to cure our minds and bodies. I guess this is the heart of the matter.
Personally, I do not want to be concerned about what I eat and drink - as we can make this a religion.
But when you have believing family members who suffer from Dementia, it forces us, to seek His Face about such things.
I used to believe that our bodies crave what they need - yet some of us are addicted to drinks and foods that are harmful to us.
He has scripted what each of us shall do each and every second of our lives, including what we eat and drink - and there is nothing that we can do to change one iota of this.
I used to say, and still say, I am not concerned about protecting my back - as He is my Protector.
Perhaps, I should also say, I will eat and drink what is available to me and trust that He will ensure that my mind and body gets the right nourishment and minerals - and forget about the possible harm from eating pork, etc.
I mean, I know nuts are good for all of us, especially almonds, who some say are the king of nuts. Yet some cannot eat nuts as they cause them harm.
To side track a little - I have researched and studied why people 'smoke cigarettes' and 'drink fizzy drinks' - and these are harmful and not beneficial at all. I have never understood why men and women smoke, as to me the harm they do is obvious, and that is why I have never smoked - and to the peer pressure others tried to place on me to try - like calling me 'chicken' - I rebutted with questions like 'why? what good will it do you or me?' and they got fed up with trying to persuade me to 'smoke'. My father smoked for 61 years, and in the end he told me that he wished he never started - and towards the end of his life, he had no problem giving them up, and chewed gum instead, without going to a clinic or 'cold turkey' - he just decided one day, no more. I did 'drink fizzy drinks' myself, as it did not occur to me that they would sell drinks that are harmful to us. Once I studied what the ingredients are in 'fizzy drinks' I stopped drinking these. Yet, I have family members who 'like the taste' and 'it makes them feel better' - and I watch them 'drink fizzy' and tell them to drink water instead - but still (in spite of my many, many, many prayers over so many, many years), they still drink this stuff.
The bottom line must be that we all depend on Our Heavenly Father to Protect and Guide us in what we should eat and drink (as He has written His Laws in our hearts and in our minds), and He cares for us.
Thank you all for all of your very helpful Posts.
Kind Regards.
George
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indianabob -
Thank you for sharing this:
Perhaps we could gain a little more understanding of the physical aspects of this clean meat question by inquiring of the very young among us.
This little girl is obviously emotional in her responses, but it seems quite natural to feel that way. And I sympathize...because I was once young myself. ;)
I-bob
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kind-hearted-girl-explains-why-000700805.html
One of my sisters, when one of our uncles laughed and killed a chicken in front of her when she was quite young, made her choose not to eat any animal or fish and she became a vegan from that time forward. She is a believer and has a family who do eat meat, and she does cook meat, as she accepts that it is up to each of us to decide what we should eat and not eat.
Kind Regards.
George
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Joel -
Thank you for Posting this:
Re: Clean Meat and unclean meat
1st Timothy 4:1-5
1-Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and the doctrines of devils;
2- Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3-Forbiding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4-For EVERY creature of God is GOOD, and nothing to be refused, IF it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
5-For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Joel
That has been my understanding for a very long time.
But lately, with all these health and food issues all around us, I decided to check my understanding and confirm what He Commands us is good for us.
Kind Regards.
George
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John from Kentucky -
Thank you for Posting this. It is very helpful:
...but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Romans 14:2
George, you are free to not eat meat. You are free to eat meat. The New Covenant does not have a bunch of food rules.
The gist of Romans 14 is we are not to judge one another over food matters, and by implication over other minor things.
We are called to peace and freedom in Jesus. The Spirit of God guides us in all things.
I have a sister who is a vegan and a believer.
I know we are free to choose whether we eat meat or not.
My point was whether there are still clean and unclean animals that we are Commanded to eat and not eat.
There has been a lot of very good spiritual and Scriptural Wisdom Posted on this Topic; and I am very grateful for all the input.
Kind Regards.
George
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John from Kentucky -
Thank you. You make a very good point:
I am always amused by wannabe teachers who go into great detail quoting Scriptures in the original languages and discussing fine points of Hebrew and Greek grammar for the benefit of us ignorant ones. I observe in the Scriptures that Jesus, Paul, John, and other teachers never used that teaching method.
God's Elect are taught by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Physical religious teachers have no understanding.
Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are Life.
The Old Covenant and teachings are done away. Clean and unclean meats refer to the difference between the Elect and those not chosen at this time. Jesus fulfilled all things in Himself.
Jesus has set us free from the false teachings of the great false church and its teacher Satan.
Do not allow false teachers to imprison you if Jesus has set you free.
That is why I sought the Truth on this matter from Our Saviour and His Word - as I do not have any trust in mankind (and its teachings in and out of churches) - as we only have One Teacher - Jesus Christ Himself by His Holy Spirit (in us).
He sanctifies the food His Children eat with their prayers and thanksgiving.
Kind Regards.
George
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Hello Dave
Dave, I started my post initially with ideas running around in my head when I saw the word “abomination” was coupled with those unclean meats which were proscribed by God. That set me thinking that anything that God labels as an abomination ought to be carefully considered and avoided, if we have the mind of Christ.
Had the topic been, say, “what is abomination in God’s eyes”, then we all could find several scriptures which show us what God terms an abomination, as far as He is concerned.
I did a “word search” and discovered, surprisingly, that several Hebrews words are all translated into English as “abomination”. They have, however, different shades of meaning and apply in different areas.
There are many things (apart from unclean meats), which God says are “abominable” or abhorrent to Him…..many are listed in Proverbs. Some with the meaning of “morally disgusting”, (Prov 6:16); being distorted in thinking (Prov 11:20); those who lie (Prov 12:22) even sacrifices of the wicked (Prov 15:8) and those who cheat others (Prov 20:10, 23).
Then there others which are more properly described/translated as “filth”…..which can be applied physically, as well as spiritually in relation to idolatry. Daniel 11:31 e.g. This the Hebrew word used repeatedly in Leviticus 11.
I try to be careful in how I approach posting on the forum, choosing my words so as to avoid any semblance of giving offence. One of the areas which God says He finds abhorrent is found among those six listed in Proverbs 6.
I began my very first posts on the forum with encouragement for all of us to show kindness towards one another and am bewildered to see, from some, thinly veiled hostility.
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord [strife] among brethren.
I value the forum for the opportunity it provides to uplift each other and express how we see things and to contemplate whatever others have to offer. Sure there will be varying levels of understanding – as to be expected – but we are not here to “tear each other apart”.
Not wishing to be too “bookish”, I did put forward the idea of abomination and its usage to describe unclean meats. Not a single person took up that line of thought. I wondered why and decided I had not high-lighted it enough. Sadly, some went off on a tangent and directed their comments and used scriptural references as if the discussion was about vegetarianism….ie, not eating ANY meats whatsoever.
I tried to make it clear that I did not think that by avoiding eating unclean meats, then that would make anybody “righteous”, any more than by eating the clean meats would do so. But, in my mind, I kept coming back to that idea of “abomination”.
More importantly, I saw that the set of statutes given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were a “whole package”, and as I understand it, as a “love gift” from our Creator to save us from suffering from diseases. I still see it as a “package” and cannot see why any laws relating to sanitation could be seen as unnecessary…..and “done away”. The close connection seemed to go unnoticed.
When it is all “boiled down”, whatever anybody else chooses to eat is no business of mine….
For those interested, the Hebrew word translated “abomination” as used to describe unclean meats means “filth” – either literally and/or figuratively.
The idea that Jesus is the end of the law was mentioned repeatedly by Alex - with the intention to have people believe that Jesus “ended” the law. Ray made this very clear where he explained that by turning the phrase around - the GOAL….or the “end” of the Law is to become as Jesus is. Jesus is the GOAL of the law…..not the executioner of it.
By turning to (many translations of) Ephesians and saying the phrase “commandments contained in ordinances” is identical to what we read in Colossians 2 is still “apples and oranges”. To clarify that, I asked the question about “enmity” but it fell on deaf ears.
I have no desire to “cross swords” and do not view the forum as a chance to conduct a “bar-room brawl”. Putting down others was one of the “tools of the Pharisees”. I wish to avoid any semblance of “locking horns”.
I shall contact a few people via PM (now that I feel I am familiar enough to use that avenue) so that I might clarify how I understand certain vital points. That way the forum will not become a “show-piece” of how NOT to communicate using conduct, which God says He finds offensive. Colin
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Certain animals are naturally clean due to physical structure and habits based upon the way God designed them.
"Ruminants" have compartmented stomachs that purify what they eat by eliminating pathogenic items that are dangerous to humans.
This is more important in underdeveloped areas of the world that don't practice full cooking of all of their food before consumption or where it is eaten raw.
See below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
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Colin, I can understand as threads go in all directions sometimes and not all comments are addressed--especially when they are long.
YES, I'm glad you see at least some of the distinction between what is ABOMINABLE to God and what He said He would make abominable to the Jews. No genuine lover of Jesus Christ is going to continue to do things or have such an attitude in ways that He judges/finds "abominable" to HIM--and I CONDEMN MYSELF with those words.
If the thought of eating "un-clean meats" is abominable to you, then the law did it's thing. I go to the first chapters of Romans for what happens next.
There is a LOT about what 'we' commonly refer to as "the Law" that goes WAY beyond "Thou shalt not.". I posted those 8 verses about the Sabbath as Ray taught this was how Christ fulfilled the Law. Nobody commented on that, either. The apostles confirmed this...the Sabbath is Spiritual. If we make it again physical, we break the Spiritual law. Even if you don't take what he said in the vision in Acts as a fulfillment of the Law (I do), there are other places similar to the Sabbath lesson where Jesus not only allowed, but TOLD his followers to break the letter of the Law. Reference the account of the man who wanted to bury his father. Break the commandment "honor thy father and mother" and come with Me. It would take a scribe or a pharisee to explain that away, as far as I'm concerned. And these are the TEN COMMANDMENTS written in stone by the Hand of God, not 600+ regulations given to the Jews. Surely the letter written at the conference and agreed to by ALL "ended" the requirement of the Gentiles to "keep" every one of the 600+ ordinances. That was the whole point of the conference, to decide this matter.
I personally don't think the Law is "ended". Apparently neither has all the enmity. ;D Nor has one jot or tiddle been removed for those who don't know or believe that Christ has fulfilled it. And if any are in Him, by faith, it is fulfilled. The law is good, if used lawfully. The law serves a purpose, as Paul expounded in Romans. As long as there are the unrighteous, the law is for them.
Sorry for not quoting chapter and verse. There's just too many. Besides, I'm afraid it will do no good for any who love the Law more than the Lord of the Law. I remember Ray's writing about the protesters in Alabama (if I recall right) who, when protesting the removal of a plaque containing the Ten Commandments, cried , "You're taking away our God.". Surely I'm not talking about anybody in this thread.
Having them "written in your heart" doesn't mean "memorizing them", no matter what pastor said. The Letter kills, the Spirit gives life.
Jesus told Peter to Kill and eat. Jesus loved Peter. You can't physically eat "vision food". But you can Spiritually eat it, and Peter did when he received the three Gentiles--unlawfully. That made us one--brothers. I won't offer you physical meat that is abominable to you. That would hardly be love. In return, please don't invent un-scriptural stories about why it should be abominable to me or add to me burdens that even your Jewish fathers couldn't bear. No fricasee of rat for you. For me? Wisdom? Sound advice? Hopefully, I'm up for it. Un-scriptural justifications and burdens? No thanks. I'm full.
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Colin -
Your Post is very thoughtful and very well presented (as have your other Posts on this Topic):
Hello Dave
Dave, I started my post initially with ideas running around in my head when I saw the word “abomination” was coupled with those unclean meats which were proscribed by God. That set me thinking that anything that God labels as an abomination ought to be carefully considered and avoided, if we have the mind of Christ.
Had the topic been, say, “what is abomination in God’s eyes”, then we all could find several scriptures which show us what God terms an abomination, as far as He is concerned.
I did a “word search” and discovered, surprisingly, that several Hebrews words are all translated into English as “abomination”. They have, however, different shades of meaning and apply in different areas.
There are many things (apart from unclean meats), which God says are “abominable” or abhorrent to Him…..many are listed in Proverbs. Some with the meaning of “morally disgusting”, (Prov 6:16); being distorted in thinking (Prov 11:20); those who lie (Prov 12:22) even sacrifices of the wicked (Prov 15:8) and those who cheat others (Prov 20:10, 23).
Then there others which are more properly described/translated as “filth”…..which can be applied physically, as well as spiritually in relation to idolatry. Daniel 11:31 e.g. This the Hebrew word used repeatedly in Leviticus 11.
I try to be careful in how I approach posting on the forum, choosing my words so as to avoid any semblance of giving offence. One of the areas which God says He finds abhorrent is found among those six listed in Proverbs 6.
I began my very first posts on the forum with encouragement for all of us to show kindness towards one another and am bewildered to see, from some, thinly veiled hostility.
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord [strife] among brethren.
I value the forum for the opportunity it provides to uplift each other and express how we see things and to contemplate whatever others have to offer. Sure there will be varying levels of understanding – as to be expected – but we are not here to “tear each other apart”.
Not wishing to be too “bookish”, I did put forward the idea of abomination and its usage to describe unclean meats. Not a single person took up that line of thought. I wondered why and decided I had not high-lighted it enough. Sadly, some went off on a tangent and directed their comments and used scriptural references as if the discussion was about vegetarianism….ie, not eating ANY meats whatsoever.
I tried to make it clear that I did not think that by avoiding eating unclean meats, then that would make anybody “righteous”, any more than by eating the clean meats would do so. But, in my mind, I kept coming back to that idea of “abomination”.
More importantly, I saw that the set of statutes given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were a “whole package”, and as I understand it, as a “love gift” from our Creator to save us from suffering from diseases. I still see it as a “package” and cannot see why any laws relating to sanitation could be seen as unnecessary…..and “done away”. The close connection seemed to go unnoticed.
When it is all “boiled down”, whatever anybody else chooses to eat is no business of mine….
For those interested, the Hebrew word translated “abomination” as used to describe unclean meats means “filth” – either literally and/or figuratively.
The idea that Jesus is the end of the law was mentioned repeatedly by Alex - with the intention to have people believe that Jesus “ended” the law. Ray made this very clear where he explained that by turning the phrase around - the GOAL….or the “end” of the Law is to become as Jesus is. Jesus is the GOAL of the law…..not the executioner of it.
By turning to (many translations of) Ephesians and saying the phrase “commandments contained in ordinances” is identical to what we read in Colossians 2 is still “apples and oranges”. To clarify that, I asked the question about “enmity” but it fell on deaf ears.
I have no desire to “cross swords” and do not view the forum as a chance to conduct a “bar-room brawl”. Putting down others was one of the “tools of the Pharisees”. I wish to avoid any semblance of “locking horns”.
I shall contact a few people via PM (now that I feel I am familiar enough to use that avenue) so that I might clarify how I understand certain vital points. That way the forum will not become a “show-piece” of how NOT to communicate using conduct, which God says He finds offensive. Colin
The Law is most definitely not done away with as it was always spiritual - and Our Heavenly Father is Spirit - and we must Worship (Obey) Him in Spirit and in Truth.
I know there is a Scripture that states that the law was made for the unrighteous and not the Righteous - which I do not understand - as if the Law still stands, and it has always been Spiritual - and we are to Obey His Commandments - and He has written His Laws in our hearts and minds - how does the law is for the unrighteous fit in? I mean how can a Righteous God write a law of unrighteousness? Perhaps, it means that it is meant for us, when we are still unrighteous, so that we learn that we need to be Righteous in His Eyes - then when He drags us Out back to Himself, He enables us to Obey His Royal Perfect Law of Liberty in Righteousness.
I welcome a PM from you to discuss this further.
Thank you for your Posts, as I have found them Scripturally sound.
Kind Regards.
George
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indianabob -
Thank you for Posting this:
Certain animals are naturally clean due to physical structure and habits based upon the way God designed them.
"Ruminants" have compartmented stomachs that purify what they eat by eliminating pathogenic items that are dangerous to humans.
This is more important in underdeveloped areas of the world that don't practice full cooking of all of their food before consumption or where it is eaten raw.
See below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
Food for thought.
Kind Regards.
George