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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nutman on May 19, 2011, 12:49:24 PM
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Hi all, new here.
My question is the lenght of Jesus' ministry. I know the Synoptics give more of a "where" and John more of a "when" when it comes to this. By that I mean John's gospels places Jesus at times (i.e. Jewish Holidays) but they all have the last holiday, the Passover.
By counting the number of holidays in John, in this case Passover (3), I get 2 years. Starts on /about a passover and ends on a passover (unless you consider the 40 days before the acension)
When I look through the records of John I see this:
a. He starts at a Passover – goes to Jerusalem
b. There is 4 months until the harvest
c. A feast of the Jews was nigh (the next would’ve been Pentecost – about this time frame) and Jesus goes to Jerusalem
d. Chapter 6 mentions Passover, yet Jesus didn’t go to Jerusalem but goes north from Tiberius to Capernaum
e. Goes to the feast of Tabernacles, present in Jerusalem
f. The feast of dedication, its winter – Chanukah
g. Back in Jerusalem for the Passover
I have been trying to figure out if there could be an error in translation, but I don't have the resources to go to older manuscripts or texts.
Why an error:
1. We have a Passover
2. We then have a feast
3. This means we skip the feasts of:
a. Tabernacles
b. Dedication
c. [coming to that Passover] Pentecost
4. Now we get back on track for the Feast of Tabernacles?
5. Dedication
6. the last Passover
Given how accurate God would be in regards to these timely events, doesn’t it appear that the chronology is off? We seem to skip a year of events.
Three times each year, every male among you must appear before God the Lord..." (Exodus 23:14-17)
If Jesus was the Lamb of God, should his ministry be a year? Hebrews gives a wonderful job on Jesus as "this and that" which includes being a sacrifice.
If he didn't goto Jerusalem, he would've broken the Law.
Exodus 12:5 (King James Version)
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
Without better research materials, could that 2nd Passover may have been a reference to Pentecost, maybe Tabernacles and he tarried at Capernaum or a possible less important summer holiday based on the chronology of John’s accounts? Could an early translator have made an error?
Granted, John states that not everything Jesus did was recorded becuase of the amount of volumes it would fill, yet it wouldn't have been much to include when he visited Jerusalem.
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Granted, John states that not everything Jesus did was recorded becuase of the amount of volumes it would fill, yet it wouldn't have been much to include when he visited Jerusalem.
That's an interesting question Nutman but the Scriptures don't go into exact details regarding the length of Christ's ministry.
I have a question however: Who/What decides how important the length of His ministry was? Is there an important doctrine that would be contradicted based on the length of His ministry? Because if there is, it might be wise to get to the root of that issue instead. Just a thought to further the discussion.
Marques
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Welcome Nutmeg to our Forum family.
Most people think he ministered for 3 years. I don't know really.
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This much I know, how ever long or short the ministry of Jesus was, IT WAS ENOUGH, NEITHER TO LONG NOR TWO SHORT. Peace and Love Through Jesus.
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Granted, John states that not everything Jesus did was recorded becuase of the amount of volumes it would fill, yet it wouldn't have been much to include when he visited Jerusalem.
That's an interesting question Nutman but the Scriptures don't go into exact details regarding the length of Christ's ministry.
I have a question however: Who/What decides how important the length of His ministry was? Is there an important doctrine that would be contradicted based on the length of His ministry? Because if there is, it might be wise to get to the root of that issue instead. Just a thought to further the discussion.
Marques
The importance of his ministry would be based on what prophetic scriptures that were written about him. If he was the "bread of life", "The Alpha and the Omega", etc. - as well as the "Lamb of God" then significance should be place on the duties of that lamb. In this instance, what were the characteristics of the sacrifical animal and why was it chosen?
Would a 1year ministry be relevant to the Lamb being of the 1st year without spot or blemish and would the Lamb be an allusion to being sin free sacrifice?
I don't think of it as much as being an important doctrine being contradicted, but if you were to have a discussion with someone of Jewish faith, would it take on even more meaning to them to realize that Jesus is the Christ becuase he was a lamb of the first year?
It would be simple to see it written "Jesus' ministery of reconcilliation lasted one year from so-and-so till so-and-so" but it don't.
Yet, if there is a chronological order of events then deduction would indicate the length. Ah, well...
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For me, "The importance of his ministry would be.." He was, He is, and He will be.
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No doubt books have been written on the subject. Thankfully, I haven't read any of them. :D
If I was telling a story of my time on the road opening retail stores, I could tell it chronologically without mentioning where I was and what I was doing every Passover. To add all that detail makes it something other than a story of my time on the road, and more a diary of passovers. That's the way I see the Gospels.
It might or might not be helpful to people raised in the Jewish tradition. It might even be factual that His ministry lasted one year. But the Spirit of God made no mistake in inspiring the Scripture the way He did. Unless there is a translation error, an addition or an omission, then what we have is what we are intended to have. What's mind-boggling is that we also have the additions, omissions, and translation errors by His will.
That's kind of a sideways answer at best. Oh well. :D
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Numbers have to make sense to me. Its my personality.
I don't expect the time Jesus ministered to effect someones salvation, that I don't think is required. The time may not effect everyone, but if its 1 peice of data that can help someone towards salvation, why not figure out to the best that we can?
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The Ministry of Jesus begins Gen 1:1 ~ continues to Rev 22:21 and is ongoing until now ~ :)
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AMEN! ARC.
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The Ministry of Jesus begins Gen 1:1 ~ continues to Rev 22:21 and is ongoing until now ~ :)
Good reply, Deb. :) Jesus' ministry is alive and well. It did not end two thousand years ago. ;)
René
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Hi Nutman,
In regards to Jesus Earthly Ministry, in My opinion, based on information that won't be cited here, might violate Forum Rules, it was 3 1/2 years. He started His Ministry at the Age of 30 and was 33 1/2 years old when put to death. John the Baptist was born in the Spring approximately 6 Months before Jesus. Jesus was Born in the Month of Ethanim(Sept-Oct) of the year 2 B.C.E. and was Baptized in 29 CE and died in the Spring on Nisan 14 of 33 CE at the Age of 33 1/2. According to Jewish Belief, A Man was fully matured at the Age of 30, hence His Baptism By John and the beginning of Jesus Ministry. Evidence of Four Passovers is found at John. 2:13; 5:1; 6:4 and 13:1. Although John. 5:1 doesn't specifically mention a Passover, but a Festival of the Jews, there's good reason to believe that this refers to a Passover, based on John. 4:35 where Jesus says there's four months before the Harvest. The Harvest season got under way about Passover time. Also, another point to consider is the Prophecy at Daniel 9:24-27 regarding the appearance of the Messiah at the start of the Seventieth week of Years and His Death in the middle of the final week thereby ending the validity of the sacrifices & gift offerings under the Law Covenant.
Anyway, that's My take, don't know about anything else on the matter, Scriptures mentioned above, cited in full below.
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
Joh 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Compare the above with Hebrews 9:9-14; 10:1-10. Scriptures Cited Below !
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hope this Helps You, Samson.
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The Ministry of Jesus begins Gen 1:1 ~ continues to Rev 22:21 and is ongoing until now ~ :)
Yeah! I like that :)
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The latter part of Luke 2:49, πατρός μου δεῖ με, can be rendered as seen with my Father. So perhaps another option is "Why are you searching for me, do you not know I must be seen with my Father?" Which kinda flows into the What Is God discussion in another tread.
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SAMSON:
This link is a US Navy site that has used astronomical calculations for determining Passovers:
http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom)
In case the site is stubborn: http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/astronomical-information-center/calendars (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/astronomical-information-center/calendars)
(I don't think it violates any rules. It does show a chart of dates of Passover. Sometimes it work other times the server was too busy)
Tiberius ceasur was in his 15th year in either 27 or 28AD (depending on what calender and what source you use)
31/2 years later you have 31 or 32 A.D.
(in case the above links don't work, this is what was displayed)
Year 14th day of Nisan (Passover Preparation)
26 A.D. Sun. Apr. 21
27 A.D. Fri. Apr. 11
28 A.D. Wed. Apr. 28
29 A.D. Mon Apr. 18
30 A.D. Fri. Apr. 7
31 A.D. Wed. Apr. 25
32 A.D. Mon. Apr. 14
33 A.D. Sat. Apr. 4
34 A.D. Sun. May 3
35 A.D. Thurs. Apr. 22
From 2bc, 30 1/2 years later is 29ad, 3 years later is 32A.D. - 32AD doesn't fit the correct date for the cruxificion of Passover Thursday. [assuming Tiberius was in his 15th year in 29ad]
(excluding the 6 months from his b-day to passover):
If Tiberius was in his 15th year in 27ad and Jesus being about 30 - 29years and some months (giving Jesus a 3bc B-Day) a 1 year term would crucify him in 28ad - Thursday Passover
If Tiberius was in his 15th year in 27ad and Jesus began at 30 something years old (born 3bc) or Tiberius was in his 15th year in 28ad and Jesus was 29and some months (born 2bc) a 3 year term would fit the year 31ad.
ABEDNEGO:
The lamb had to a male of the 1st year from the goats or sheep (i.e. Lambs). As the "Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world", would it not make sense that he would've ministered 1 year after being baptized by John?
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Jesus started speaking with the temple elders at age twelve, normal age was 13. He started a year early, so why couldn't he have started at age 29?
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The Ministry of Jesus begins Gen 1:1 ~ continues to Rev 22:21 and is ongoing until now ~ :)
Yeah! I like that :)
I like that, also. The question should've been more specific. For example, " 'What was the length of Jesus' Ministry during His physical life on earth?' "
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Did the physical life on earth Ministry of Jesus Christ, ever end? The Ministry of Christ continues to this day within His Kingdom of which the Temple of God is YOU.
The time line from conception to crucifixion is not the Life of Christ.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, The Truth, and THE LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
Arc
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Amen, Arc! Two that come to mind "It is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me" "whose names have not been written in the scroll of the Life of the Lamb..." Gal.2:20 KJV, Rev.13:8 YLT. 8)
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Very informative samson! Very clear and concise!
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Anyway...
What if the 2nd Passover mention in John was a reference to the Minor Passover that takes place in the month of Iyyar?
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Anyway...
What if the 2nd Passover mention in John was a reference to the Minor Passover that takes place in the month of Iyyar?
What if it isn't? Also, the 2nd Passover was intended for those who missed the 1st through no fault of there own. It wasn't a public event.
Also, I see where you asked why Jesus couldn't start His ministry when He was 29. He couldn't have started at 29 because there is a Scripture in Luke that says He was about 30 when He got started. Not about 29, not about 31, but about 30.
an "about 30" isn't 30. My daughter is about 5 but she's a few months away from 5 yet no longer 5 1/2. My other is about 2, about 2 weeks away from being 2.
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Hi Nutman,
Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph, (YLT)
Luke 3:23 And He, Jesus, when beginning, was about thirty years old, being a son (as to the law) of Joseph, of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi, (CLV)
Translations are not always clear, nor do I believe that they are meant to be (there must be confusion/deception). But they do give us what we need to come to the truth, as we must let the spirit guide us in what is true. We can see that Jesus Christ during His life always fulfilled the law.
Luke 24:44 And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms about Me.
There is a pretty wide range of dates concerning Jesus' Life (more confusion/deception) and when different things occured. But as Jesus Christ was a Jew and was following the Jewish laws throughout His life, then it would stand to reason that He continued to follow it concerning the start of His ministry, so that no real fault could be found against Him. There are quite a few Scriptures that speak of the required age of a Jewish man to begin the work of the priesthood/ministry.
Gen. 41:46; Num. 4:3, Num.4:35, Num. 4:39, Num. 4:43, Num. 4:47
There are really no Scriptures that dispute that He was 30 when He began His ministry and maybe it was really close to the beginning of His 30th year, if not the exact day. But He knew and I'm certain He did it at the proper time.
Here are a couple of comments from some commentaries.
Adam Clark's Commentary--
Thirty years of age - This was the age required by the law, to which the priests must arrive before they could be installed in their office: see Num. 4:3.
John Gill's Exploration of the Entire Bible--
Luke 3:23 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age,.... Or Jesus, when he was baptized and began His public ministry, was about thirty years of age: an age at which the priests, under the law, who were typical of Christ, entered on their work, Num. 4:23 The word, "began", is left out in the Syriac and Persic versions: and is often indeed redundant, as in Luk. 3:8 and frequently in Mark's Gospel. The Arabic version renders it, "Jesus began to enter into the thirtieth year", which carries the sense the same with our translation:
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat