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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on November 01, 2007, 11:37:31 AM
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It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.
Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Terrible to our flesh yet glorious to our spirit, I still find it incredible and at the same time humbling that the Creator and Source of all power and life would take an interest in such an insignificant player in the scheme of the world such as myself.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Once again the fallacy of "free will" is demolished, who has the power within themselves to change what God has ordained?
Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
When we believe we of ourselves can know or figure out what His plan and purpose for us we are then doomed to failure, understanding that He will open our spiritual eyes and ears in His good time requires a faith that again can only come from above.
Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Once you have been set free by the truth, it is odd to think they can't see the obvious, that we have no free-will. But it is true the whole world believes we have a free-will, because they are deceived.
Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived..."
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great has fallen, has fallen!....v. 23 For your merchants were the great ones of the earth; for by your sorceries all nations were deceived.
For the few God is revealing the truth that He controls all things and man has no free-will. Still it is hard concept to fully comprehend that He causes everything, directly or indirectly.
Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Eph 1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.
It's all to His glory, but we will recieve tremendous benefits from the work He will accomplish.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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[quote author=hillsbororiver
Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Thanks Joe, By the way I noticed in regard to the word terrible. Consulting the Strong's Concordance for additional meanings we find the following.
Strongs # 3372 "fear" and also "to revere"
Meaning #2 = Used of a person in an exalted position, yare' connotes "standing in awe". This is not simple fear, but reverence, whereby an individual recognizes the power and position of the individual revered and renders him proper respect."
It could also demonstrate what God is going to do with us and that what God does will inspire respect. Not respect just for us, but respect for what God can do with the lowliest of persons such as us.
I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known. At least not until I have been reintroduced to them. It will truly be a miracle, when they believe.
Indianabob
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
[/quote]
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Hi Kat,
Thanks for the additions you made to this thread, indeed the whole world is deceived by this concept of free will, but in reality is anything on this earth really free at all? In any sense? I have come to the conclusion the word "free" itself is deceptive.
Earlier today at lunch I saw a "buy one, get one free" ad for a coupon book that gives the holder 2 lunches or dinners for the price of one (as long as you pay for the more expensive selection). First you have to buy the coupon book and then pay for a lunch (or dinner) then you get one "free." What is so free about that? Sure, you get a better price but hardly free.
How about a free estimate, you don't pay for the estimate in dollars and cents but you sure do pay (in time and sometimes aggravation) once the sales pitch begins and when they get your address and phone number to follow up with.
Can anyone think of any earthly thing that is totally free? Without commitments, without consequences, without effort, without some sort of compromise or promise or action?
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Now the concept of an uncaused thought or action seems so naive when at one time it seemed so basic and unquestionable.
God can close eyes every bit as effectively as He can open them!
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known.
:D That goes double for me Brother!
Thank you for your contribution Bob, I like the definition of "terrible" you presented as it shows the trials and tribulations of this short time in the flesh accomplishes His purpose of teaching us reverence for Him and His Righteousness, ultimately making us perfect Sons and Daughters.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hello Joe
You say : we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves,........
As and when we truly GRASP this, I believe it is then and there that we enter into God's REST. What a hideous thing to remove from us this opportunity and door way to the Peace of Christ that is with held from millions of seekers who are being mislead to choose Christ and be born again!
This great harm and theft against anyone receiving the Truth, is ALSO an experience that God is putting in the path of Babylon and her followers that will be revealed, repented and resolved because of God's MERCY. How wonderful is that! ;D (Caps only show what is accentuated for me to my mind and is not meant as teaching preaching or high handedness at all)
I do not think that we can discuss nearly enough the value of this subject and topic. It deserves much consideration, discussion and reflection on a daily basis I believe! Thinking about how God is Sovereign is like coming off an hypnotic trans or stepping out of a coma! Slipping back is so easy to do.
Thanks for the post Joe.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I sometimes reflect that when my relatives and friends see me in the Kingdom that they will not recognize me as anyone they have ever known.
:D That goes double for me Brother!
Actually the first thoughts from old friends and family from years past will probably be gloom and doom (if and when) they see me because they most likely will assume they ended up in the wrong place!
Peace,
Joe
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I do not think that we can discuss nearly enough the value of this subject and topic. It deserves much consideration, discussion and reflection on a daily basis I believe! Thinking about how God is Sovereign is like coming off an hypnotic trans or stepping out of a coma! Slipping back is so easy to do.
A big Amen Sister!
This should be in the forefront of our minds as we journey through this strange place. Great post Arcturus.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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This is a great thread that everyone needs to stop and really meditate on for a long time. Joe, Kathy, Bob, and Arcturus have all made some separate and powerful points. It is hard to really believe this even once you believe it. I think this is like some drills in football that a player does throughout his career from high school to pros because they are so important and so basic.
I have been reading Ray for a couple of years now and I have continuously found myself reading the freewill sections over and over. It is because until you get rid of all of those old traditions of the mind to believe then you have to fight the fight daily to understand it. When you have this truth and you see verses like
Proverbs 16:1 "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD"
Then it dawns on you that the thoughts, experiences, personality traits, etc that goes into every conversation and deed is from the Lord With some thought and meditation on it, you realize that it is impossible to be set free until you know in your heart that it is all from the Lord God caused that thing you did in high school that you still regret, so stop regreting and start rejoicing because it was from the Lord and if it had not happened you would not be where you are right now and you had to be where you are right now in God's plan.
It really is so awesome (Bob, I think God is doing an awesime thing in us like you pointed out) to think that where it says in Hebrews that "they could not enter into God's rest because of their unbelief" is so true on at least 2 levels. Of course God would not allow them to enter, but secondly He made it like a law. If you have unbelief and cannot believe in the doctrines of Christ like God's sovereignty then it is humanly and spiritually impossible to rest. When you think that your efforts direct your path then you are in bondage to the things of this world. If you get to the place to where you know that you know that God is in complete control and He is working everything to the good then and only then can everything be joy.
I love this stuff.
CIY
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Hi Joe,
This is a great thread and your post sparked a few thoughts of my own, my comments in brown.
It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.
This is so true, but I am not sure that the fact that so many get it wrong should be surprising, because, they have only they only have eys and ears to hear what has been given them to hear. As you say, man can do nothing on his own, the simple truth is if anyone believes such, God has yet to release his Spirit in a greater measure.
Mat 19:11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
Exo 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the LORD: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Terrible to our flesh yet glorious to our spirit, I still find it incredible and at the same time humbling that the Creator and Source of all power and life would take an interest in such an insignificant player in the scheme of the world such as myself.
This is a tough one my friend, because I know how you feel. Yet this is the beauty and the simplicity of his love. It is unconditional and not earned. Quite a strange concept in this world.
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Once again the fallacy of "free will" is demolished, who has the power within themselves to change what God has ordained?
I could run with this but yes, it is not up to man to even direct his steps.
Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
This must allude to your first comment, man can walk wherever he wants, but he will never find God, until God wants to be found.
Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
This would seem to mean (at least to me) no matter how hard I study, analyze and meditate, I will not grow in favor or staure in God's eyes. Trust is the key here, trusting everything to him.
Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.
When we believe we of ourselves can know or figure out what His plan and purpose for us we are then doomed to failure, understanding that He will open our spiritual eyes and ears in His good time requires a faith that again can only come from above.
I agree with this 100%, but it is only half the story I feel. I think this subject fits very well with the folowing parable
Mat 25:14 For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Mat 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made [them] other five talents.
Mat 25:17 And likewise he that [had received] two, he also gained other two.
Mat 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
It would appear that those to whom much is given, much is also expected. Sometimes, it is hard knowing when to wait and when to search, but to do nothing is surely doom
Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
I have come to the point in my life that wasting time second guessing God is fruitless, it brings me no joy or peace of mind. My greatest comfort is when I listen with my heart and soul, and then act. The messages may be subtle and often overlooked, but I find with time they become very loud and clear.
Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
It all comes down to trust and nothing else.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[fn1] your paths.
I hope this fits with what you intended ,
Love to you my brother
Darren
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This is so true, but I am not sure that the fact that so many get it wrong should be surprising, because, they have only they only have eyes and ears to hear what has been given them to hear. As you say, man can do nothing on his own, the simple truth is if anyone believes such, God has yet to release his Spirit in a greater measure.
Hi Darren,
Not really surprised but amazed;
It is a fact that we can only experience the things that God puts in our path, we do not accomplish anything of ourselves, I know this seems rather basic but seeing this repeated so often throughout the Old and New Testament it amazes me that virtually all Christiandom believes man himself needs to choose and come to Him rather than He chooses and comes to us to complete His work.
It isn't some sort of culture shock or being aghast at what others believe or questioning the wisdom they have been given, rather I am amazed that I could be so fortunate to have been exposed to the real Gospel. I had nothing to do with it. It was a gift.
Other than with people that have ulterior motives I really do not have a problem with folks that are sincere in questioning the articles here, or that are searching for answers to things that either trouble them or in things they feel are contradicting. We should all be as the Bereans, searching the Word on our own, to be sure the things being taught here line up with the Scriptures.
I have found it to be rewarding to read and reread the articles and as I do consult my Bible whether it be a hard copy or an on-line version and just read through entire chapters where Ray quotes his witnesses, then search throughout the chapter for other layers of Truth His Spirit is waiting to reveal to you/us.
Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Here we go again, looking at the same thing from a different angle; both of us seeing beauty in a different light. Now I see where you were coming from :)
Yes it is a deeply humbling experience, realizing that one has done nothing in order to recieve all that has been given. What is even sometimes harder to grasp is realizing that there is much that can be given in return; not as payment or compensation but in honor. How can this be done, some may ask? Well it is by the Spirit that all truth and insight is given and effectively we become as branches on the tree of life. The Spirit produces fruit, how can it not? Carnal man must lose the "Me, Myself and I" totally and become as one with God, and not hold the Spirit as if it were a prized possesion, but rather let it free to breathe and bare all that it must. We cannot lead it, it MUST lead us.
How else are we to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil? :)
Sometimes I am a bit dense Joe, I guess you have learned that by now.
Thanks for the update.
Love in Christ Brother,
Darren
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Darren
The Spirit produces fruit....it must lead us....
How else are we to walk through the valley of the shadow of death and fear no evil?
This can also be applied to the other Scriptures under the same question how else are we to ....
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct[fn1] your paths.
Zech 4 : 6 It is not by force nor by strength, but by My Spirit says the Lord Almighty.
I believe this can be applied to all the do's and don't we find in the Scriptures. We DO by His Spirit and we Don't by His Spirit. This does not take away our accountability for our actions because our salvation is from God, by His Spirit and Will and is not of man's spirit or works.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope 21.because the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus:
This does not take away our accountability for our actions because our salvation is from God,
I like this paragraph from Ray in Gehenna Fire Judgment to relate to the accountability factor: [My emphasis in red] ... This is like, for an example:
And so when a man who is tempted to spend more time looking at a woman than he should, looking at her to lust after her, the Spirit of God will give him power to turn away. God won't make you or force you to turn away, but He will give you the power to turn away, and then you have to do the turning. And should you fail to turn away before you actually lust after her, then you must "pluck out your eye." No not your literal, physical organ of the body, but the lustful eye of your heart.
Eye opener!
Wake up call!
Can we have more grace please?
:)
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I was sitting on my porch this morning thinking and was reminded of a time many years ago when I believed all the church teachings. I remember being in my living room thinking about all the different religions and how everyone thought they knew the truth and really sincerely believed what they believed. At that time I was thinking of the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and others I had been in contact with. I was thinking about how deceived they all were and suddenly thought I could also be deceived and not know it. I remember reading the verse about even the elect being deceived if that was possible. I thought well it is a possibility that I was deceived. I didn't really believe it at the time, but knew it was very possible. I started praying after that. God if I am deceived please let me know and show me the truth. I prayed that for many years because I knew it was possible.
Well it turned out that I was as deceived as anyone could be.
So once again this morning I humbled myself before the Lord and asked him to keep me from being deceived and asked him to keep me from being led astray. I was reminded of Ray's words about Judas being chosen, but not faithful until the end.
I was also reminded of this verse.
John 5
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
I have been guilty many times of studying scripture as if it were a puzzle to be solved rather than keeping my eyes on Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Once again I was humbled this morning and had to repent.
The Lord has shown great mercy to all of us.
1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.
1 Peter 2
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Romans 9
15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
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Great thread, it is so important that we see as we really are...thank God that Jesus has opened our eys. Those who read the next scripture do not see it or believe it...except in the physical.
Exo 4:11 Yahweh said to him: Who make the mouth for a human or Who is making one mute or deaf or with eye unclosed or blind? Is it not I, Yahweh?
Yes Joe God certainly has terrible things in store for some
Zep 1:17 And I cause distress for humanity, and they go as the blind, for against Yahweh they sin. And their blood shall be poured out as soil, and their intestines as ordure."
We cannot take any of what we have been blessed with for granted less we too stumble
(Joh 9:39 WNT) "I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind."
(Joh 9:40 WNT) These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?"
(Joh 9:41 WNT) "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"
I agree MG with your prayer to be kept until the end. Oh it has been a long hard journey, but oh the peace and joy even now.
Beloved.
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Hi
This is a very interesting thread , but isn't there a danger that we can become overly passive,by just accepting the fact that everything that happens in our life is from God (which it is of course) and being unable to change anything.
I have a number of issues in my life that perturb and worry me and I would like to see them changed , but perhaps I shouldn't bother to try to do anything about them because God is probably using them to shape and correct me, and any attempt on my part to change them would perhaps be relying on my own abilities or resisting the will of God.
Taking it to the extreme (I'm being very stupid here) if God allows sickness into our lives , should we go to the doctor ? No sensible person apart from some christians maybe would consider that as a reasonable position to adopt.
So how do we balance being accepting of what God allows in our life, without becoming overly passive and inactive.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
So how do we balance being accepting of what God allows in our life, without becoming overly passive and inactive.
I can see the point you are making.
We should always strive to do the best we can do in every situation, but if good things are accomplished, it is only by the grace of God.
Each and every one of us are doing and carrying out our own lives, of which we are accountable. But it is all according to His will, some vessels of honor, some vessels of dishonor. We should always be striving to be the vessels of honor. Praying is a key element for sure.
Paul speaks of how we should be living as believers.
Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Phi 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Phi 2:14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
Phi 2:15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
Col 1:10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Col 1:11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat
That has made things a bit clearer now
Dave UK
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This thought occurred to me: Our will is not free but we do have choices. God permits us to choose and when my choice is not a spiritual choice God uses it His way. And God's ways are not our ways. I need to believe that we can thwart God's plan temporally. That I am not a robot. dessa
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Dessa,
I believe you really have to hold strong to God's truths. In the face of our carnality, which is always wanting to give us the power, we must trust in the doctrines of Christ even though we cannot see it that way in the physical. We begin to reason with our own understanding and think that God could not have caused me to do that it had to be me. No it was God. God is all in all. And, like Ray says, all is one.
I had someone that is in Bablyon and hearing some of these truths ask me, "Don't you think we make some of the little decisions especially those that have no big meaning?"
See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head. Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan.
So I said to this person that there really are not any small decisions and there are no large decisions, they are all the same. They all affect God's plan. Think of what a small decision it would have been for Adolf Hitler's mother to have stayed up for another 15 minutes before going to bed and have missed the act of conception of little Adolf. Small decision. Big consequence.
God boxes us in to where there is no wiggle room. He is totally sovereign. So if the potter makes me a chamber pot, then I will not be free until I am over joyed at being a chamber pot.
CIY
PS - You are not a robot. A robot has no feelings or emotion.
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Hi Dessa,
This email will give you a little more for you to think about.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------
Your concept that all will be saved is like almost too good to be true – but I must say it looks scripturally right.
I am still battling on the fact that we do not really have a choice as to what we are going to do in this whole plan of God’s. Are we then just robots?
With the love of Christ,
Michael
Dear Michael: Regarding you last statement, Michael, you are not understanding properly. OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?
Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.
God be with you,
Ray
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We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
This is what I was trying to convey earlier. To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use. Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan. Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God. Do these words come closer to the truth?
Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot. Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.
Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa
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We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.
This is what I was trying to convey earlier. To add thwarting God's plan was not the sentence for me to use. Whether I choose to visit one friend or the other would not change God's overall plan. Whether I prayed or not would not change His Big Plan but would effect my relationship with God. Do these words come closer to the truth?
Now before God called me I was unaware God is behind my every move and I would not have thought of myself as a robot. Also, the Holy Spirit enables me to make spiritual choices now that I could not have made before I was called.
Can one say we make physical choices and spiritual choices and when our spiritual (Jesus' way) choices surpass our physical choices we are dying to self according to God's plan?
Shalom, dessa
Hi Dessa,
I agree with you and wish to add a little more. A couple of years ago, there was a discussion very similar to this and I wrote Ray for clarification. I basically asked him if we were God's puppets and he the master puppeteer? In short, is our life being played out like a movie from a DVD. Everything is going to happen and NOTHING upon NOTHING is going to prevent it. Ray thought that this concept was NUTS!!! :) And he made it clear that he never ever said anything of the like. Unfortuantly, I think with the server issues that the forum has had since then, I lost his response.
I find it absurb, cruel and downright mean to even consider that the God of Love, is controling the actions of 4 guys as they brutally rape and strangle a sweet 13 year old Girl. That it was God who programmed there every thought and action, including the screams of the young girl. Does this sound like a God of Love to you, to anyone?
Let us look at this from another viewpoint:
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Word used for Draw in this Scripture is: helkō [G1670] (Strongs)
It's meaning is vital for correct understanding.
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Let us consider this for a moment. If God is in control over our every thought, word and action, then why does He need to drag anyone to him? Does God engage in a battle of wills against himself???? Do the Scriptures teach this?
No, they do not. What they teach is that the world, including man is at war (enmity) with God.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God
It is not, God against God, but God against Man, and drag man to him, God does; sometimes peacefully and sometimes with kicks and screams.
As for this not being part of the plan, perhaps we should have a closer look at what a plan is. A plan is basically a high level road map of what is required to reach the objectives from beginning to end. Of course the plan cannot cover every little or major thing that could go wrong; however, there are always contingencies factored in. If this happens, then do this, or if that, then do that. Is this not the same as a husband and wife with two children. They want their two boys to get a good education and go to college. This is the plan. However, while one student is an A grade student, while the other is C grade student at best. With this child the parents had to provide special attention, additional tuition, training, etc. But the plan never changed, both boys did make the grade, went to college and get good jobs. Just as was always planned.
Is it any different with God. Does he have to control everything to ENSURE it comes to pass? I do not think so. What then are miracles? are they just the accumulation of events that were put in place and meticulously controlled for eons of years. Or is it the impossible occuring when even the impossible was impossible to consider. God can do this, and does often. Can God cause things to happen that would not otherwise of happened? I know he can. The Scriptures teach this.
When we as humans work for a micromanager, we often look at them unfavorably and think that they must have no respect or trust in our ability, they HAVE to tell us What to do, when to do it, how to do it, and how long it is to take. Does this sound like a manger that respects his/her workers, trusts their abilities and is always willing to take their side? Not to me. :) Which of these two managers sound more like God?
What judge would hold a man accountable for doing something that he HAD NO WAY of not doing. That if he did not do it, his family would be killed, etc. Yet, if God controls our every move like a puppeteer, then how pray tell will He the most Sovereign and just Judge ever hold the puppet accountable. The thought is sickening :(
But we are not puppets, and God is not pulling our strings 24 x 7. He only drags a few to him, and even then, some will still walk away. We know also that he as even predestined some to great things Spiritually. Likewise, he is the master potter; some people are the finest china, while others are little more than lumps of clay. He does not give the same amount of Spirit to everyone, some he gives a lot and to others little; however, the more he gives, the more he expects back. In this sense, God is much like an employer who expects great things from those that are paid well and little things from those paid a pittance.
God finds no pleasure in hearing screams of pain or seeing someone fight hopelessly for their life. Neither does he "Against his Will" control the minds of murderers and rapists and wife beaters. God is the God of love; where is the love, if God does control every viscious and sadistic move that a terrorist plots.
I will close with the following words from Timothy:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I think carnal man with the help of satan will be all of this and more. Whisltever one believes that God is controlling, manipulating and pulling the strings on every evil deed then who needs Satan?
I apologize if this post offends anyone.
Love to you in Christ our loving Saviour,
Darren
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Hi CIY
You wrote: See we cannot handle that God knows every hair or thought in our head. Even a sparrow's death is in God's plan.
Of course God knows every hair on our head, he knows which ones are grey, which ones need cutting and for that matter which ones are missing. :)
He knows this, because everything is in him and he in everything. Nothing can happen that he doesn't know about, even the pauses between my words as I type this. God is not controling my fingers by default, rather he knows what they are doing.
Yes, a sparrow must die, and as before God knows when and why. He might know that the sparrow is aging and that it can no longer sustain itself, or that it is starving or was poisoned. He knows, because the sparrow is in him, and he in the sparrow. God designed the saprrow like everything else, with a limited life span; if conditions are favorable the sparrow may live many years, if not, then the sparrow may only live days. God also knows the circumstances that have occured and invariably will occur, just as you said. But not because he is controlling everything, but rather because he knows everything. If he wanted a sparrow to live a 1000 years, then it would live that long for sure. :)
I hope this is what you were saying.
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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Hi dessa,
Here is an excerpt from Ray's audio transcript on - ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON. Hope this will help your understanding :)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html -------
Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, “If Free will does exist, it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.”
It’s a feeling, nothing but a feeling.
“The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it.”
In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will. I mean you get up in the morning, you say I’ll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat. This is all free, see. Why is it free? Because we PERCEIVE it to be free. When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you don’t have it. It doesn’t exist, it’s a figment of your imagination, it’s an allusion, it’s an idol of the heart. It’s something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you don’t, you’re going to say you do. That’s what it is, it’s an allusion at best.
“That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.”
Have I not said that through out my papers. Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off. Can he do that? Can he not do what he DESIRES to do? Yes he can.
This is so profound. This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer, “that a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.”
I’m telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives.
You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that?
The human brain, the human mind has the ability. It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension. That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it. It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that. But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God. It’s tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.
Everything has a cause. Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you don’t have a choice. So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.
But when you check all the definitions of words, as we did. We looked at ‘free,’ we looked at ‘will,’ we looked at ‘free will,’ and we looked at ‘choice.’ They all point to the same truth, they all point to the law of cause and effect. All of them do. All scientific research and discovery point to the same truth. There is no effect without a cause, there is no choice without a cause.
But we read the definition, if it has a cause it’s not free. Guess what…..you don’t have free choice then. If free means without a cause, then you can make choices, but you can’t make ‘free’ choices, because there is no such thing. If free will is something one controls, then by its very nature it is not free. It is a self-contradictory term, it’s an oxymoron, it’s like dark light, cold hot, or true lies, it’s a square circle.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
Thanks for posting that, it was very interesting and made a lot of sense.
However, I would like to add that there is much, much more that goes into "choice" than a given circumstance alone. I think this may have been meant, but for clarrification only; two boys may see their father beat and abuse their mother from an early age. Both lived in the same house, both seen the same things, except from the beginning, one felt justification for his father and the other felt hatred. One grew up doing the same to his wife, while the other grew up never even raising his voice to his wife.
But there is more to circumstances than the obvious; something caused the two boys to see things differently, their actions were the effect. Had their father never laid a hand on their mother, one of the boys may have still grown up to beat his wife.
Circumstance now, this very minute, right here could be and probably is the results of millions of causes and effects, the cause that began the life of the tree/s that makes up my desk. The concept is unfathomable, including our actions, which may result from a DNA.
Cause and Effect.
Thanks and Love in Christ,
Darren
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Darren,
Are you saying that you do not believe God is in control and causes everything that happens in this world?
CIY
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Kat,
I agree...
Free Will is a beast... an idol of the heart that is very hard to let go of...
To quote some more from our Lake of Fire in the sections of "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed"
Why does it matter one way or the other whether man possesses free will or not? Would the future of the human race be changed somehow if man did or did not possess free will? Here’s how much it matters: If the basic free will doctrine and the eternal torture in hell doctrine taught by Christendom are both true, then man himself, and not God, is ultimately responsible for where he will spend eternity.
"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure" to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).
This was very tough for me to swallow the first time I read through it... it is difficult to let go of the theology of man that you have been taught all of your life... but for me that is what I had to do... try to forget those things I was told and be willing to accept the scriptures for what they say... not what a man behind a podium in a church of man teaches.
Bobby
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Darren,
My faith today agrees with your writings. When I was about seven years old my granddaddy told me everything I did I wanted to do. When I tell that today I usually add that given the choices and consequences we do what we most want to do.
My heart/mind constantly thinks how to best express myself in love and yet say what needs to be said. Even when I goof I trust our Heavenly Father to make it right.
I'm looking forward to brand new learning experiences after the conference.
Shalom,
dessa
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CIY,
I believe God is Sovereign. I also believe His plan for mankind is far above mankind's understanding. I believe each ones learning is at the place God wants each to be.
In order to work out my salvation I must make choices.
Shalom,
dessa
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Dessa,
I agree with what you wrote 100%.
You said, "I believe each ones learning is at the place God wants each to be."
To be in the place at every moment that God wants you to be then God has to be in control of every moment of your life. Your wants are of the Lord.
Again just like the verse I quoted earlier.
Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD
Everything you say is of the Lord. This is hard for us to really get a consistent grasp of because like the old James Taylor song "Goin to Carolina in my Mind" we can continuously go to Babylon in our mind and get back to thinking we had something to do with it.
Thanks for this thread Dessa and know that you are truly blessed of God.
CIY
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Darren,
No one is saying that God is evil. However God created evil and He uses it to accomplish His purpose.
I find it very beneficial to continue to study the LOF series, especially the "Myth of Free Will Exposed" essays.
In Part C of this series under the subtitle "Can You Handle the Truth?", Ray made this statement:
You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can't handle the truth.
So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!
I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.
Peace,
Rene
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Hi Rene,
Just a quick question. Where in the New Testamemt (other than Revelations) do the Scriptures indicate that God is causing clamities, crimes, hate, and all of the things that are listed in Timothy:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Are you suggesting that God PLANNED all of this to happen, or are you saying God knew what would happen, after all He did tell Adam and Eve did he not and he gave Satan a free reign. God's plan deals with the salvation of the world, no one or nothing is going to twart that plan, not even Satan.
God gave man an evil heart, but it seams he is incapable of giving man the ability to use it. That the great creator that He is HAS to pull the strings.
Oops, forgot to sign off
Love to you Rene in Christ our Saviour,
Darren
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Here is another emal that I think will help in this discussion.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ------
Dear Marcus:
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
God be with you,
Ray
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Since our purpose is to discuss and question what we learn on bible-truths.com, it may be a good thing for us to all reread part 15 of the Lake of Fire... for this is a main truth that differentiates us from those that contradict the Word of God.
We are here because we are like-minded in that we agree with scriptures... and respect Ray's teachings as the revealing of Bible truths.
I would really encourage everyone to read parts 1 through 14 first... but part 15 does stand alone pretty well. There are 4 parts (A,B,C,&D) and starts at the below link:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html)
I say with the most humblest of intentions.
Bobby
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Hello Beloved
Great line up of scriptures you presented to which I believe these can be added :
Isa 45 : 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
Rom 1 : 28 And so since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome.
Dave you ask : isn't there a danger that we can become overly passive……
I believe the danger to become spiritually lazy, complacent, holier than thou or luke warm is a real danger. We have to judge ourselves and those not doing this exercise are indeed falling prey to the error of thinking that they will not be held accountable for their thoughts and actions.
Regarding the Sovereignty of God. Some I believe are most uncomfortable with this fact and others are okay with it and yet others rejoice in it and find the rest in God that His Will for us reveals.
From your contribution Kat of Ray’s response to Marcus, this stands out as a critical bench mark for me. Quote :
God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Darren
God does cause circumstances that result in evil actions thoughts and desires of unconverted man. God takes responsibility for this and is not GUILTY FOR THIS awesome responsibility that I believe only God can carry. God does not desire and neither does God take pleasure in evil. No contest there and neither does Ray teach such heresy. Man takes pleasure in evil not God. God gives man over to his evil ways to learn not to trust in his own evil and wicked heart. Sin begets death and that is how man learns by and from experience the difference between God who is Good and is LIFE and Evil that is hideous and results in Death.
In Gods great Wisdom and Love HE has given man the experiences of good and evil to contrast and eventually result in mankind recognising the Power, Wisdom, Love and Sovereignty of his God.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello Darren,
I understand your frustration, And while God is the ultimate cause of all things, God does not "force" anyone to commit such acts, they volunteer to do these things. WHY?
Because the creature [man] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him [God] who hath subjected [the same] in hope, [Rom 8-20]
So in the final analysis We sin, ALL SINS, " not just little white lies" because God has made us that way. That is WHY we sin, but we DO COMMIT that sin, and are accountable, Well Chris, you speak out of both sides of your mouth Not true, it is the Scriptures that teach us God M.A.D.E. us that way.
This is not a easy subject, scripture clearly states God made us weak with vanity, NOT WILLINGLY...ALL is of God....
Time to move on folks
Hope this is of some help
Chris R
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Hi Chris and Arcturus,
If I am hearing and understanding you both correctly, what you are saying is that though the circumstances are from God the "will, want, desire ir need" to do evil/sin is from man alone, with some edging on by Satan. Like: "Whose going to notice", "everyone else does it", "Why not?"
The will to do wrong is not from God, but from man and Satan, who was a liar and a murderer from the begining.
If this is what you are saying, then I am in total agreement.
Thank you both for your uplifting responses.
In Christ with Love,
Darren
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Amen Darren!
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Joe, Kat, Darren, Arcturus and all,
You are all probably aware of this in your own experience.
I communicate with a lovely woman who thinks of herself as a non-believer and justifies her view by quoting Bible passages illustrating the "cruel and selfish" things that God does. I am reasonably sure that she does not have the calling we have been given, but she is concerned about the welfare of friends and relatives "who are deceived into believing that the God of the Bible is love and is kind to His children".
She notes the world wide flood, the tribal wars and the punishments that God is responsible for and even commands in the Bible and especially the poor treatment of women throughout the Bible in the culture and customs that are illustrated in which women are treated as property by their fathers and their husbands.
My point is that it is difficult to even discuss the fact that God has a loving purpose in mind when she reads all that God is responsible for when He not only allows but even plans for humans, especially women and children to suffer in order to learn that evil is evil.
I have read all that has been written in this thread and agree, but I am noting that this understanding cannot even be shared with the world unless and until their minds are cleansed. Maybe we are destined to be alone in our understanding until Messiah returns. Maybe we should not be too concerned about sharing this information and drawing persecution down upon ourselves on a personal level, since it appears that most will not be able to accept it.
How can we be a light and an example and be 'always ready to give an answer' in a positive manner and still avoid unnecessary and counter-productive confrontations that bring persecutions upon ourselves and still yield no good fruit? Are we then casting pearls of wisdom before 'swine' (the world) and finding that the "swine" don't want our/god's wisdom and don't even recognize our information as wisdom?
Maybe we try too hard to convince others of wisdom that we needed years of correction to accept and even then as a miracle from God.
Please comment and correct as needed.
Bob
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Hello Bob
I believe no one can lead anyone anywhere.Even if we have a flash light and shine it in blind eyes, those eyes will still not see.
Your post reminds me of what Ray teaches. Quote : All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.
Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind. http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
You ask : How can we be a light and an example and be 'always ready to give an answer' .....
I believe our preparation is in how we are going to answer to God not to man or in avoidance of men who are carnal and hate God.
Luke 21 : 36 Watch, keep awake then and watch at all times, be discreet, attentive, and ready, praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.
I like the praying advice in the above verse...praying for me means being in dialogue with God not man....praying praying ;D that is what we are doing here. Learing His Word and His Truths and building on that via fellowship with like minded brethren! Well this is how I see this anyway.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hello jER
Yes! Circumstances!
2 Cor 4 : 8 We are hedged in on every side, troubled and oppressed in every way, but no cramped or crushed; we suffer embarrassments and are perplexed and unable to find a way out, (of our circumstances?) but not driven to despair; 9. We are pursued, persecuted and hard driven, but not deserted, we are struck down to the ground, but never struck out and destroyed, 10 Always carrying about in the body the liability and exposure to the same putting to death that the Lord Jesus suffered, so that the resurrection life of Jesus also may be shown forth by and in our bodies.
Paul knew about circumstances!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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God is always on the side of circumstance... and always the cause behind circumstance.
From 12 God Given Truths To Understand His Word:
No man does seek God except and until God brings about circumstances wherein he does seek God. But He only does seek God because "All is of God" who brings about the circumstances whereby someone who would not seek God, now does seek God.
From The Myth of Freewill Part A
In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices.
"Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, if the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that" (James 4:13-15).
More from The Myth of Freewill Part A
What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man’s will? Answer: "Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow."
God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that "you know not" are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.
How did all the disciples will to remain loyal to Jesus no matter what, at one moment in time, and in the next moment in time, they all changed their will to forsake Him? What changed their wills? Circumstances. One moment they were at ease and safe in the upper room, and at a later moment they were in the garden surrounded by Roman Soldiers! Fear was the circumstance that caused their (un-free) wills to change.
So it was the presence of certain circumstances that caused the disciples to will as they did. But what caused the circumstances to be as they were to ensure that they would will appropriately to fulfill Christ’s prophecy concerning their denying and forsaking Him?
GOD’S WILL: Notice the second thing that the Holy Spirit inspired James to write regarding what will or will not happen on any given day to any given person. "…if the Lord will…"
Who was in charge of all these circumstances, which caused the disciples to change their wills? Why God, of course. They did not want to change their wills. They did not desire to deny their Lord and Saviour. They did not wish to make liars and fools of themselves. They did not want to be shown that they were all cowards. Well then, why did they change their wills if they did not wish to change their wills? Were they free to not change their wills? No, they were not free.
The fear inside of them caused and made (and yes, FORCED, if you will) them to change their will. And Jesus Himself told them that they would change their wills, so how pray tell could it have been otherwise? Yet I suppose that some are so spiritually stubborn that they will still insist that the apostles did not need to change their wills, that their wills were yet free to stay loyal in the face of these fearful circumstances.
When we argue with God like this, we demean Him. God has a plan, and God brings about His plan. God is not stupid. God knows exactly how to cause man (all mankind) to do exactly as He plans for them to do.
Bobby
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Hebrews 11
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29For our God is a consuming fire.