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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on October 04, 2008, 01:54:17 PM
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There are some interesting verses in Ezekiel that perhaps pertain to the futility we often experience when attempting to share the truths we have come to see with those who are still in the clutches of Babylon.
Check this out;
Eze 3:24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet and spoke with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.
Eze 3:25 But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them:
Eze 3:26 And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.
We actually see above that it is through the power of God that some are to remain in their condition of being deceived and we of ourselves are powerless to do anything about it. Then we go to Chapter 24 and something changes, He begins drawing/dragging some to Him through the words of His chosen.
Eze 24:25 Also, thou son of man, shall it not be in the day when I take from them their strength, the joy of their glory, the desire of their eyes, and that whereupon they set their minds, their sons and their daughters,
Eze 24:26 That he that escapeth in that day shall come unto thee, to cause thee to hear it with thine ears?
Eze 24:27 In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him which is escaped, and thou shalt speak, and be no more dumb: and thou shalt be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
To me this could possibly be a two edged (two age) prophecy, one pertaining to the gathering of His elect and the other part pertaining to those being saved in the LOF......
A couple of verses that came to mind as I was reading Ezekiel;
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Just some thoughts spoken out loud (in a cyber kind of way).
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Joe.
I stopped talking to people about God, I found those whom I spoke to, keep God in there pocket and pull God out on Sunday. All they wish to do is boast their understanding of a carnally minded God if you will.
If someone should ask me about God then that one I talk with about God. I say only enough to get them interested and then give them the hyperlink to Bible truths.
All is of God but not all is coming to God. I believe if I try to get someone to believe as I do but will not it is futile. If I try with a great passion to persuade anyone who will not listen then this I believe exposes my own pride thus, it is not of God but me.
Good post Joe. In His Love. Richard.
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Hello Joe,
From Freckle Girl & Samson(together). Why is it mostly futile to Witness, except in harmony with 1 Peter. 3:15( Those asking of us). Here's a good Scripture, as to Why, 2Corinthians. 4:4 " Among whom the god(Satan) of the system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."
If a relative, work associate or even our Spouse is shone a plain Scripture and explanation on even a basic teaching(basic for us), like " Eventual Salvation for All " (1Tim. 4:10; 1Tim.2:3,4; Acts. 3:21; 2Peter.3:9;etc,etc) and can't and won't except this, at this time its futile to witness to them.
The best Witness could only be showing them Love and kindness, through our conduct.
In Gods Love, Freckle Girl & Samson.
P.S. Freckle Girl dictated the verse and I typed, What a team; ;)
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Hi Richard & Pam (Samson too),
Thank you for your feedback and the added scripture!
So many of us have felt the frustration of attempting to force (too strong a word?) what we have been granted to learn on others within our sphere of influence, it was and is my hope that this will help to (along with the multitude of Ray's articles) give some comfort to those who feel they are somehow failing to properly convey a message. To this I must say "don't sweat it" it is God's plan for all to be saved yes, but each in his own season, God's directive, not ours.
Relax, be patient, pray for the Spirit of Christ to work within us and to use us as He sees fit, when we attempt to be spiritual under our own power we are really opening ourselves up to the wiles of the devil.
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Joe, I do believe you are correct about the time not being yet.
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
I do believe that before We are to our thing (God's thing) those in Babylon must be humbled first.
I've seen scriptures that hint at how this might be accomplished but I can't remember what or where they are.
The story of Noah's ark does seem to be an illustration of how God will do this, but there does seem to many others aswell.
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Yes,
I was so excited when I finally understood that God was going to save EVERYONE!!! I thought, wow, what a wonderful, loving Father He truly is, someone I don't have to fear other than the necessary discipline for my stubborn, willful, selfish pursuits. I didn't rush right out to tell anyone but when I had the chance, while talking to first one sister, then the other about this life-altering discovery, I was floored at the resentment and incredible resistance I received from them. My one sister actually thought I thought I was some special person like Paul or something and greatly deceived. I was so disappointed that they couldn't at least say they could see a glimmer of truth in it. Even my brother-in-law who is pretty much of an agnostic thought it was absolutely ridiculous to believe there wasn't a hell for the wicked people of the earth. Wow, I always cringed at the thought of ANYONE, even a Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, Ghengis Khan or Saddam Hussein to spend one whole day being tortured by flames, let alone a kind buddhist. I guess some people like the idea of it, not saying my sisters do but, good golly, lol.
Next I was making the rounds of some Christian forums. I was in a ladies group a short time, reading their typically orthodox views even though they thought they were quite liberal. After awhile they wanted to know what I thought. I told them I didn't think they would enjoy what my opinions were but they said they were open-minded and willing to listen to any differing views. But when I just put a few of my opinions in a post, wow, did they become viscious!!! Suddenly I was a vile heretic doomed to suffer eternal agonies in a hell I don't believe in!!! I was really bummed out for the first few years that I didn't have anyone to share with other than a few people online, though that did help. I have since gone through an agonizing divorce and now have a bf who is a "recovering Catholic" in his words, who has some similar beliefs though he hasn't investigated it deeply.
Sometimes, I ALMOST wish I hadn't made this discovery. In some ways there was much more comfort in believing with the majority in a church family. But, something kept harping at my mind, telling me that what was being said about baptism (that's where it started anyway) and losing one's salvation wasn't quite kosher. I searched but found no real satisfaction till I cried out to God and asked for Him to help to know Him and how He felt about us (the world). That's when I started being directed to sites that made scales fall from my eyes. He took me through a long journey, first dealing with small matters, such as the baptism and impossibility of losing salvation. Then I started learning about types and shadows of the Old Testament which is fascinating. I was a Calvinist for awhile I guess, but it just didn't seem to be the Father's heart to torture so much of mankind and that's when the blinders came off about "hell".
That was almost 5 years ago and I doubt I've made much of a difference in anyone's belief system but I am much more content in my own soul. And a great relief over other people's soul has replaced the concern over never really being able to witness with any degree of success. Now I know that God has it all planned out in his own time.
I still have a lot to learn, I may even change my mind about current doctrinal positions, but I can't imagine that I would EVER go back to thinking that our own free will saves or condemns us or that God planned that there would be some that would be forever annihilated or tortured. How could those in heaven ever be happy with loved ones enduring that fate, and if we forget everything that happened on this earth, what good was it to endure it all to begin with?
Peace
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I recall when I was much younger and in High School, I was reading a small booklet that was sent to me in the mail by an Evangelical pastor saying how we would look down from heaven on all the people we meet in life that did not hear about Jesus and were in hell now. And we would feel responsible because we would be listening to their screams and cries and we could have witnessed to them but we did not. ??? :(
How amazing after your eyes are open how you can see how they totally destroy any compatibility with the scriptures with just a couple sentences.
Jeff
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There are some interesting verses in Ezekiel that perhaps pertain to the futility we often experience when attempting to share the truths we have come to see with those who are still in the clutches of Babylon.
I don't see it that way.
Does Ray witness to those still in Babylon? Would anyone consider his efforts to be futile?
I have heard his audios, and I really recommend them. They help a lot! The ones on freewill are especially good.
In them, he is quite harsh to those still in churchianity.
Maybe "harsh" is not the right word. Let's say he gets right in their faces and does not back down. In my opinion, that is something to keep in mind.
He goes toe to toe with them, and in the process he helps us learn. There is nothing futile about it. When we go toe to toe with others, it helps other people learn, by the foolishness of our "preaching". It also helps us to learn.
The "futility" part is in changing the other persons mind. But we aren't called to do that, are we? That is not our job. He said His Word does not return void. I have faith that this is true, even if I dont see the results myself, in this life.
Peace
;)
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The problem as I see it is semantics
Witness is such a loaded term....it was coined in Babylon and it carries the Babylonians theory of Free will. That we by telling them the Gospel that we will be ale to convince them of its validity because we stand as a witness for it. (reminds me of ...Ye who has no sin cast the first stone)and that they can choose to believe it.
We are however called to rebuke. That is presenting God's Word when what is being said is in error . But Gods Word stands on its own. We are just messangers and not analysts or commentators. If there eyes and ears are receptive conversation is possible, if they are not open then only debate can occur.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Most of what we do is with believers . As a messanger , we are told to expect tribulation just like Jesus did when he confronted the religious and righteous. They cannot bear the truth. Ray really irritates them because they cannot deal with the Truth. Many of us only have small audiences that we have to contend with and we are often afraid to deal with the rejection. As we become stronger in the Word and Christ works in us, we will need to be bolder.
Perhaps there is some knowledge when we are told Michael said to satan The Lord rebuke you...when we are confronting false doctrines we have to remind ourselves not to take on a role of superiority but humbleness.
beloved
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I would like to add something if I could,
Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Seems Paul waited
Again we have this:
Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain
It seems Paul did a lot of moving around and conferring with fellow brethren before he went and preach.
My two cents
Antaiwan
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The problem as I see it is semantics
Witness is such a loaded term....it was coined in Babylon and it carries the Babylonians theory of Free will. That we by telling them the Gospel that we will be ale to convince them of its validity because we stand as a witness for it. (reminds me of ...Ye who has no sin cast the first stone)and that they can choose to believe it.
We are however called to rebuke. That is presenting God's Word when what is being said is in error . But Gods Word stands on its own. We are just messangers and not analysts or commentators. If there eyes and ears are receptive conversation is possible, if they are not open then only debate can occur.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Most of what we do is with believers As a messanger , we are told to expect tribulation just like Jesus did when he confronted the religious and righteous. They cannot bear the truth. Ray really irritates them because they cannot deal with the Truth. Many of us only have small audiences that we have to contend with and we are often afraid to deal with the rejection. As we become stronger in the Word and Christ works in us, we will need to be bolder.
Perhaps there is some knowledge when we are told Michael said to satan The Lord rebuke you...when we are confronting false doctrines we have to remind ourselves not to take on a role of superiority but humbleness.
beloved
Well said, all of it! All I can say is "Amen"!
.
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There are some interesting verses in Ezekiel that perhaps pertain to the futility we often experience when attempting to share the truths we have come to see with those who are still in the clutches of Babylon.
I don't see it that way.
Does Ray witness to those still in Babylon? Would anyone consider his efforts to be futile?
I have heard his audios, and I really recommend them. They help a lot! The ones on freewill are especially good.
In them, he is quite harsh to those still in churchianity.
Maybe "harsh" is not the right word. Let's say he gets right in their faces and does not back down. In my opinion, that is something to keep in mind.
He goes toe to toe with them, and in the process he helps us learn. There is nothing futile about it. When we go toe to toe with others, it helps other people learn, by the foolishness of our "preaching". It also helps us to learn.
The "futility" part is in changing the other persons mind. But we aren't called to do that, are we? That is not our job. He said His Word does not return void. I have faith that this is true, even if I dont see the results myself, in this life.
Peace
;)
Hi Kent,
Are you saying then that all of us have been called to teach at this time? I believe that if we of ourselves set upon teaching we may actually be participating in not only (spiritual) harm to others but to ourselves as well.
There is godly discernment that must accompany any desire to teach. Once we begin to act spiritual of our own accord we are in fact succumbing to the carnal flesh.
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
Certainly Ray's teachings reach all over the spectrum of anyone who has any sort of interest in scriptures by virtue of Bible Truths being on the internet but I also know that Ray does not go door to door preaching or attempting to teach those who have little to no interest in searching for the truths contained in the scriptures. He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
Perhaps you believe that the verses I quoted pertain only to the Jews of Ezekiel's day, we can agree to disagree on that point, I have come to believe that the historical OT is also prophetic and since we have another scriptural witness (indeed there are more) from Paul that is right in line with (what I believe to be) what Ezekiel is speaking to on more than one level, for more than one short period of time.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Not all are called to teach, some of us may be being groomed for things other than teaching but are every bit as much of God's plan.
1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14For the body is not one member, but many.
15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Peace,
Joe
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To add on...and that more excellent way is Love, expounded in the next chapter. Love trumps them all. Act in genuine Love, and we can't go wrong.
Being carnal, if that is ever very easy I'm a scuttlefish. But that's how they'll know us.
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By Joe:
Certainly Ray's teachings reach all over the spectrum of anyone who has any sort of interest in scriptures by virtue of Bible Truths being on the internet but I also know that Ray does not go door to door preaching or attempting to teach those who have little to no interest in searching for the truths contained in the scriptures. He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
Bottomline...many do not even want to hear. Many do not even want to listen.
ScarletWren...do not get discouraged..walk the way of Gods truth..i feel the same as you...altho the system does not wellcome you (and me) anymore, God brought peace to my soul..maybe someday God will use you as a vessel to be of blessing to someone else...and maybe not...i will keep on praying that it will.
Robin
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Are you saying then that all of us have been called to teach at this time? I believe that if we of ourselves set upon teaching we may actually be participating in not only (spiritual) harm to others but to ourselves as well.
No. I said no such thing. But lets get the terms straight. There is the office of teacher, and there is just plain teaching that everyone does. Ray has the office of teacher IMO. I have no such office.
Is it only up to the "teacher" office holder to expose those that contradict, or can anyone do that?
Let me put it this way. Suppose you are close to someone, and that someone told you that their pastor was demanding the standard 10% of gross income as a tithe. Would you remain silent if you weren't "asked" ? If that pastor then told that person that he/she would be guilty of "stealing from God" and "cursed with a curse" and would burn in hell forever if they didn't tithe, would you still remain silent? You might, I don't know what you'd do, but I sure wouldn't. Now if he/she didn't respond, it's out of the "teachers" hands.
But we can witness to others what we know. I have difficulty understanding this thing about not teaching. Does it require a teacher to teach something basic that they already know? Does one need a teachers certificate or a college degree to teach basic math? Really, this is basic stuff.
He does not become a tinkling cymbal (1Cor 13:1) to those who do not want to hear.
Since a good many people writing him dont want to hear, and are quite antagonistic, why respond to them? I know, you aren't Ray, but that makes no sense to me.
I dont claim to be a teacher. Maybe I will be, maybe not. Probably not. All I do is what I know.
I listened to his audio, I believe it was his "foundational truths" talk, where he wanted to give others the ability to expose these false doctrines to others instead of just pointing others to his site and letting it go at that, just by knowing 7 scriptures. Does one have to have the office of teacher to do that? It sure sounded to me like Ray was saying no such thing. He explicitely stated in that audio that he wanted others to have this ability. But he also warned that if it is done with a carnal mind, one would fall flat on ones face.
Now if others see things differently, I won't argue.
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Kent,
I do understand the same thing from Ray. We all study to become more proficient at what we are called to do.
God will always provide opportunity for us to grow, we do the growing in His Will. Many things i was unable to discuss
with Scripture to Verify and Corraborate are now made simple to communicate because of Prayerful prolonged study.
Remember we are being prepared for many great things in Christ, so do practice to become proficient.
George.
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Amen to that agr
beloved
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Kent (and Joe),
I totally understand what you are saying and agree wholeheartedly, but I would like to offer that perhaps Joe's initial post was to encourage us as we experience the rejection that always seems to follow when we do try to share the truths we've learned. True, not all are teachers, but we can't help but try to share our love of Christ with our families who are still blind. The key is sharing Christ's love and truth, but not for the sake of making our carnal selves feel superior.
Thanks for listening to my 1/4 cent!
Vangie
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Kent (and Joe),
I totally understand what you are saying and agree wholeheartedly, but I would like to offer that perhaps Joe's initial post was to encourage us as we experience the rejection that always seems to follow when we do try to share the truths we've learned. True, not all are teachers, but we can't help but try to share our love of Christ with our families who are still blind. The key is sharing Christ's love and truth, but not for the sake of making our carnal selves feel superior.
Thanks for listening to my 1/4 cent!
Vangie
Thank you for that post Vangie.
Joe and Kent both made great points and it helps to have someone who can mediate their prospective positions.
Marques
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I would like to offer that perhaps Joe's initial post was to encourage us as we experience the rejection that always seems to follow when we do try to share the truths we've learned. True, not all are teachers, but we can't help but try to share our love of Christ with our families who are still blind. The key is sharing Christ's love and truth, but not for the sake of making our carnal selves feel superior.
Vangie,
You nailed it Sister!
That was my motivation from the start, "do not become discouraged when sharing any of these wonderful truths with anyone, their condition (of blindness or deafness) is totally up to God."
Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Peace,
Joe
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Kent (and Joe),
I totally understand what you are saying and agree wholeheartedly, but I would like to offer that perhaps Joe's initial post was to encourage us as we experience the rejection that always seems to follow when we do try to share the truths we've learned. True, not all are teachers, but we can't help but try to share our love of Christ with our families who are still blind. The key is sharing Christ's love and truth, but not for the sake of making our carnal selves feel superior.
Thanks for listening to my 1/4 cent!
Vangie
Exactly. We can't feel superior, because I believe we all know how inferior we are.
I suppose some do need to be encouraged when they are rejected. Personally, I don't need it, because I know Who is responsible for that rejection, and there is a reason, a purpose for that rejection. It just sometimes blows my mind that people reject it, because it is right there in plain sight.
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Let me put it this way. Suppose you are close to someone, and that someone told you that their pastor was demanding the standard 10% of gross income as a tithe. Would you remain silent if you weren't "asked" ? If that pastor then told that person that he/she would be guilty of "stealing from God" and "cursed with a curse" and would burn in hell forever if they didn't tithe, would you still remain silent? You might, I don't know what you'd do, but I sure wouldn't. Now if he/she didn't respond, it's out of the "teachers" hands.
Hi Kent,
I have challenged this despicible teaching in the past with family, my wife, in-laws, etc. I spoke, they listened, they rejected. Not only were they being taught the tithing doctrine but were also being guilt tripped into coughing up even more cash for sound equipment, outreach programs, pastor education, etc.
At first (shortly after discovering BT) I would drone on and on about their error, feel a certain satisfaction when they could not answer with scripture to dispute me, I may have "won" the argument but I lost them. They did not want to talk about religion with me any more.
Now after some time of my wife observing some profound changes in my attitude, my temper and some other things she slowly began asking questions and actually listened! She is no longer in that or any church and even though she is not convinced of everything I believe or that is taught here the door has been opened.
My other family members are still involved in the churches but since I stopped being a clanging cymbal they are willing to talk about some of the things we believe. Again, it was more due to the differences they saw in me rather than any of my "clever" arguments.
As Vangie observed my point was not to discourage anyone from sharing what they feel drawn to share but to not become discouraged by those who God has willed to remain blind and deaf in this season.
Thanks for your questions and for making your points as it has helped me to clarify my position and hopefully not add to any confusion or consternation.
Peace,
Joe
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From "Winning Souls For Jesus" http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
LIGHT AND SALT DON’T ARGUE OR MAKE NOISE
"Ye are the salt of the earth… Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:1,14,16).
Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there.
Too many people learn a few truths of God and think that they are ready to take on the world. They usually start by trying to embarrass their Pastor with their new-gained knowledge. Usually they fall flat on their face on the very first try. It’s all about motivation. If your motivation is carnal, God will not back you. Yes, I know, all of you are saying: "But my motivation is to show them God’s truths." Yes, sure, I understand, but THEY DON’T WANT TO HEAR GOD’S TRUTHS, and you already know this, so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them taste your salt and see your light and admire your good works, and perchance they will even praise God for your new-found humility,
You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God’s Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but lose the sale," so don’t argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."
I receive a lot of emails from people who beg me to come to their rescue because they are about to have a second session with their pastor or friend, but have failed miserably on the first go-round. Now they want me to give them the ammunition they need to do a slam-dunk on their second attempt to embarrass their pastor or friend. Give it up—that attitude is wrong. Such a carnal exhibition of prideful flesh is akin to someone looking for a street fight merely because he has just acquired a black belt in karate.
HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH
I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local cafe as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:
"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: ‘conduct’] honest [Gk: ‘honorable’] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).
Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.
Peace,
Joe
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"Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there."
Yup.
The first time I read those words they ended a somewhat lengthy career of arguing scripture on a forum (or with anyone for that matter).
Big difference between someone who wants to know some-thing(s) about the "truth".
Entirely different when arguing is just to argue, and the world if full of those types. Fruitless and a big waste of time. In my book anyway.
A.
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Joe,
That is one of the things I don't like about forums. Yeah, there are smilies, etc. But there is nothing like face to face discussions to prevent any misunderstandings. My being blunt sometimes doesn't help matters any, even though I have been on forums for some time now and should know better... ::)
I know what I am trying to say, but sometimes the writing doesn't match what I am trying to say, or someone will read it and wonder "what got into him?"
I totally agree with you. One cannot do this just to win arguments. Yes, like you, I can win these arguments easily, but for what reason? It helps no one.
It just so astounds me, that in my astounded state, sometimes I do push things to far when I am talking or writing to others. It's like someone is desperately trying to convince me that the sky is pink with purple polka dots, when to them, that is what I am doing to them. There is no common ground to have a discussion.
In my case, I am at an advantage, and this might put me at a disadvantage when it comes to letting others know what we all know. I knew, from the time I was a kid, what I was learning in babylon was not right, and it had little or nothing to do with scripture. Until I came here, I just didnt know what the answers were.
Maybe it will take a change in tempermant, like it did with you. I probably should leave the meat alone, and stay with the milk, for now. Until someone starts up with the "eternally burning in hell" nonsense. It will take an act of God to keep my mouth shut. But that has happened before.
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Hey Brother Kent,
I know of what you speak and I still struggle with this as well, there are times that I am close to erupting like a volcano when I hear of certain Babylonian doctrines being spoken, it is offensive to us when we hear the awful things being said about our loving Creator that we know are not true.
Peace,
Joe
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This little jewel is a good response and a good fit to the "in spirit and truth" thread.
Rodger said: "Spiritual Worship understands the pain of growing in Spirit now."
Sharp.
A.