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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Wittenberg on March 15, 2016, 04:23:52 PM
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I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?
Thanks
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We know God is both male and female. Adam was both before Eve. That's all I can think of for now.
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I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?
Thanks
Hi Wittenberg,
1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
v. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
v. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
v. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
First of all there was never a "fall" of Adam and Eve, they were created from their first day "earthy" and not with the Holy Spirit, so they were carnal and just as spiritual weak as the rest of humanity... does a day go by when a human being does not sin in one way or another? I don't think so and neither did they, so they were doomed for destruction/lost/perished as all humanity is in this life, accept a very few that will be saved in this life.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
The Son took on this earthy body, so to experience the same life we have to and die as we must, there's how He was the same as us. But He had the Holy Spirit without measure (John 3:34)... therefore He never sinned and was not of a carnal nature as the rest of humanity, he was God. Big difference.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Wittenberg
That was now really a good question and I find it difficult to relate to the last response.I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning and there was no "fall".Then you say in fact God created Adam as a sinner? To me the Word of God teaches that Adam was created in the image of God (although without knowledge of good and evil). They lived in complete harmony with their Creator and we do not know how much time expired between their creation and the great deception of Satan. But surely they were completely innocent !This relationship is actually confirmed when God called Adam after the "fall" and Adam tried to hide from God because of his "nakedness"(the knowledge of evil in his own life because of their wrong choice )In Rom 5:12 we read :" wherefore as by one man sin entered(it was not there before )into this world and death by sin ;and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned."What does this say?There was innocence (first ) and then sin and death and "so death passed upon all men "--this is how we are all as guilty as Adam - born in sin --Adam's sin imputed upon all men. This is the point where men's nature changed for all generations. In the same way we are all guilty of the Crucifixion of Christ (Ray's teaching -not mine )As sinners we are of the seed of Adam (being the seminal father of all mankind )and as believers we are in Christ quickened by his Spirit -- even so the battle between the flesh and the spirit rages on in our lifes.
Also to say that Christ came to this earth to experience the same life and die as we ,is a bit of a loose statement. He came to save the world from sin. For that the Father sent Him to be born of a virgin by the Holy Spirit so as to be flesh but without the contamination of the "fallen " flesh of the first Adam. For the rest He was equal to man except for sin. He was also to withstand temptations and trials (read Ray's teaching on Jesus's trial in the garden of Gethsemany )Adam was also created the son of God (see the genealogy of Jesus in Luk 3:38) in other words pure in mind and innocent.When Scripture likens or compares Jesus to the man Adam it is the Adam after he came to the knowledge of good and evil (first Adam -sin ; second Adam -- redemption of sin )
Again , good question and worthwhile contemplating on ,Yours in Christ , Wim
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Ray teaches clearly that man was created with a weak heart from the beginning,
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
otherwise Eve would not have “lusted with her eyes” etc. Gen 6. also 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
God created all things and Satan too for a purpose and his purpose was to deceive Eve so that God’s plan could be initiated for mankind
God knew that Eve would be deceived so didn’t intervene when the serpent did his work “He knows the end from the beginning” Isa 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Another point to consider, if Eve was not deceived and their eyes opened, then they would not have had sexual intercourse to start the human race and they would still have been the only two in the garden. But God himself told them to “be fruitful and multiply” Gen 1:28 (because He knew the end from the beginning and that they would only be able to be fruitful and multiply after they had eaten of the fruit) and God Himself placed that tree there for them to eventually eat from it, thus initiating His divine plan for humanity.
God’s plan was to select his saints and elect for them to be his sons and daughters
Lk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Kat also brings forth scriptures that prove this point exactly!
This is my understanding so far, if I’m wrong please correct me
Jingle
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Hi willemv,
Here ane a few places that discuss these things.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html ------------------
THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’
Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man’s fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------------------
Seeing that Adam and Eve were "carnal-minded" from creation, and that the carnal mind CANNOT love God or be obedient to His laws (Rom. 8:7), no one could do differently than Mother Eve did. No human on earth has ever been found, save Jesus Christ, in whom it can be proved that he or she never did wrong, made a mistake, broke a law, or committed many other such sins.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm#Adam ---------------
As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."
The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?
Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.
Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.
Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:
"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.
Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."
A better translation helps our understanding:
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."
They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"
But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!
Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
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1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
v. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
"The first man Adam" was natural represents all mankind living carnal lives to spiritual weak to not sin. It's not because of Adam's sin that we sin, it's because of the weak carnal nature given to all mankind.
"The last Adam" represents the the life-giving Spirit of God/Christ which is only come into a few now in this age, but all eventually come to all and gives us spiritual life in Christ.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm ----------------------
What Christ did could not be put into books—the whole [kosmos] could not contain it.
Jesus did not fulfill the sacrificed sin offering only. Jesus was not merely one offering, but the many offerings, burnt offerings, the meat offering, the peace offerings, the trespass offering, and the sin offering. Jesus also prefigured the priest doing the offering, the meaning of each offering, the compartments and furniture of the tabernacle, the bread, the candles, the curtain, the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle itself, and the whole nation of Israel—Jesus prefigures all and FULFILLED ALL.
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).
And that is the simple explanation of this marvelous truth. The Scriptures speak of far more than just the prophesies of Jesus coming as the Messiah.
We are all in Adam. We do all that Adam did. We believe in the Spirit what Israel lived in the flesh. All Israel was baptized in the Red Sea. We are all baptized into Christ’s death. And now the last Adam (Christ) lives His life in us (Gal. 2:20), but not until we repent of the first Adam of the flesh living his life in us.
"Then opened He their UNDERSTANDING, that they might UNDERSTAND the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45);
"Consider what I say: and the Lord give you UNDERSTANDING in all things" (II Tim. 2:7).
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an UNDERSTANDING, that we may know Him that is True…" (I John 5:20).
"And you shall know [Gk: ‘sure understanding’—but future] the truth, and the truth shall make [future] you free" (John 8:32)
For three and one-half years Jesus promised that some day His apostles would know the truth. But clear to the end of three and one-half years of learning at the feet of Jesus, the Apostles did not yet understand His teaching, purpose or plan. One day they were blind to these truths, and the next they understood. How is that possible?
We have clearly seen that Jesus kept the real meaning and truths of His teaching from the masses, the church leaders, His disciples and even His apostles. Late in Christ’s ministry, we are told that:
"And they understood NONE OF THESE THINGS: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the THINGS WHICH WERE SPOKEN" (Luke 18:34).
But after His resurrection, Luke tells us that:
"THEN opened He their understanding, that they might understand THE SCRIPTURES: (Luke 24:45).
Maybe, TODAY, will be the day that God begins to "open your understanding of the Scriptures."
Jesus said to His disciples:
"…ALL THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, CONCERNING ME. Then opened He their understanding…" (Luke 24:44-45).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!
I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
CLV Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."
CLV Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."
As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No
Michael
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Hi Wim, I only agree with one point in your whole statement!
I think one should be careful to make statements like Adam was "doomed"from the beginning
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
CLV Eph 2:10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready before hand, that we should be walking in them."
CLV Eph 4:24 and to put on the new humanity which, in accord with God, is being created in righteousness and the benignity of the truth."
As Kat has said in her post Adam never had a fall! But to say one is doomed also doesn't sound right. Maybe Adams flesh was doomed but not Adam himself. Everyone qualifies and no one is doomed and why?
CLV Gen 1:27 And creating is Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
Only the First Fruit Jesus is born of God and the first fruits are awaiting there birth ( or resurrection ) and then the rest in their order the FULL harvest. Do I see any doom in there? No
Michael
Okay here is my quote, "does a day go by when a human being does not sin in one way or another? I don't think so and neither did they, so they were doomed for destruction/lost/perished as all humanity is in this life, accept a very few that will be saved in this life."
Here is the definition of doom - 1 : judgment; esp : a judicial condemnation or sentence 2 : destiny 3 : ruin, death— doom vb
Here is where Ray spoke on this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------------
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
v
A word study will clearly show anyone that Jesus came to SAVE those who are and will be destroyed. And do I have a Scripture on that? I am glad that you asked. Here is a beautiful lesson that will show us just how important it sometimes is to know from what original word a word in our English translations came.
Here is the temporary fate of most humanity:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).
Did Jesus come to SAVE all those who enter the broad gate to "destruction?" YES HE DID:
"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST" (Matt. 18:11)!
There it is!
There is what? Where does that verse say that Jesus came to "SAVE that which was DESTROYED?" Why right in the verse, of course. You see, the New Testament was written in GREEK, and in Greek, here is what Matt. 18:11 says: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was apollumi." And just what does apollumi mean in English? Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: "#622 {92x} apollumi to destroy, to perish, or lose" (page 37). Ninety-two times in the New Testament we read of "destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost, and they are all translated from the same one word, apollumi! So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL!
Old Testament too:
"O Israel, you have DESTROYED yourself; but in Me is your help… I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death…" (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!
"The righteous PERISH, and no man lays it to heart…" (Isa. 57:1)
And concerning lost Israel God says,
"I will seek that which was LOST, and bring again that which was driven away…" (Ezek. 34:16).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat, yes I agree with that. Didn't know what the word doomed really meant. But was it not his carnal nature that was doomed and not him himself? As I said Adams flesh was doomed, but not Adam himself, and I said that because As in Adam All die, but also in Christ All shall be made alive. I was referring it to his carnal nature, so when His righteous judgements are in the earth, we all will learn righteousness. And the carnal nature will die but we will be saved with fire. And we will all be in his children. Thats why I didn't see it as doom for Adam but for his flesh, because we all will be the children of God.
lol need lots of grammar work :-\
Michael.
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I believe, like Ray, that becoming "made in god's image" is a continuing process. But I have a hunch that there is a nugget of something about Jesus being a man and Adam being a man. Jesus never sinned and Adam never sinned, until he did. How were pre-fall Adam and Jesus the same, how were they different?
Thanks
It's a bit hard to answer the question, as I don't believe Adam "fell". The woman was deceived. The man was not. In that way, the man and THE MAN are similar. (as are the woman and THE WOMAN).
I also tend to think of 'men' in the natural as not YET men in the Spiritual. It's not 'wrong' to call people of a certain age 'men'. It's not even wrong to include 'women' in 'men'. But all of "us" men in the Spiritual are not yet even born.
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Hi Kat
Thanks for your time , I made a print and will follow all the links you provided.Still difficult to shake off 70 years of indoctrination but God willing I will get there.
God bless , Wim
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Hi Dave, Just would like to add a thought to part of your quote.
But all of "us" men in the Spiritual are not yet even born.
I would just like to say that those who've been chosen are certainly in the process to be born spiritually.
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa 46:3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb;
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
And my favourite
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth( the flesh of man ), purified seven times.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Isaiah 37:3 (KJV)
3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Yes those that are chosen are not born of the spirit yet but they will come out of the womb...
R.P.and J
Michael
Maybe this doesn't even belong in this thread ?
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I don't think God has anything to do with being male or female, that is something He created.
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I don't think God has anything to do with being male or female, that is something He created.
What say the Scriptures?
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"... Gen 1:26
So God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Gen 1:27
Both male and female are in the image of God. Thus, both male and female are contained in God.
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Scripture says that Gods image is male and female. Is His image Him anymore than my image is me? Doesn't Numbers 23 says God is not a man?
Saying God is both male and female or that Adam was male and also female (trapped in a male body)... Hmm.
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These comments about being male and female made me think... everything that is created is for a distinct purpose and humans were created in the image of God, male and female, so it does have something to do with what God Himself is revealing in us.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
The question is why did God make mankind with two genders? 'I think' that this is the basic plan, that in creating the two different genders, with their own diverse ways of thinking and acting, we have both parts that represent the whole or complete being, which is God and this is demonstrated out in marriage.
Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
To me in an ideal marriage, it is combining the two different parts/genders, that when combined and are working together in harmony make a whole unity. God already possesses all these qualities within Himself, He is complete and perfect and therefore understands every aspect of both male and female.
1Cor 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
But of course that is just the basic concept, there is much more to the intricate relationships in this world. For one thing God designed the structure of authority/rule for human society with the man created first and placed first in authority over the woman. I do not believe this is meant to demean a woman, it's just the roles we are given and the way we carry it out develops our character for good or bad. God also revealed how this distinction in gender is incorporated throughout our lives with the Israelites and how it plays out in their society and religious customs.
Because this is the structure of authority that God has placed in this world, I believe this is why God is always referred to in the masculine, in all OT references He is a man and He came to earth as a man, that is what was required for Him to fulfill His mission. God has designated the man to be an authority figure in the world for many reasons and God uses the male gender to identify Himself to the world as an authority figure as well.
Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent...
In that particular Scripture it says "God is not a man" and it continues to say in what way He is not like a man "that He should lie." The first part cannot be taken without the next part to get a proper understanding of it.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
But this is just my pondering, maybe it'll gives us something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form. God made us in the God form. We are His kinfolk. His children. Thus we look like our Father. We are made after the God kind of life. Not angels. We will be at the top of the life chain. It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us. We were special enough that He died for us.
The study of God is endlessly fascinating. Nothing else comes close. What fun!
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Scripture says that Gods image is male and female. Is His image Him anymore than my image is me? Doesn't Numbers 23 says God is not a man?
Saying God is both male and female or that Adam was male and also female (trapped in a male body)... Hmm.
--------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study. [/b]
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Are there any scriptures that would indicate this word image could carry more than just spiritual metaphorical meaning? Yes I think there are.
Consider genesis 9:6 which states that humanity was made, past tense, in the image of God. But surely this blood shedding carnal humanity could not refer to God's spiritual image and character, could it?
Gen 9:6 The shedder of the blood of a human, by a human his blood shall be shed, for in the image of the Elohim has He made humanity.
A new testament proof of this idea is found in Paul's usage of man's image. Referring to a generic man which includes carnal God hating humanity paul says;
1Co_11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Not even we who have God's spirit are yet in His complete spiritual image (As its a process) and yet paul could still call a generic man the image AND glory of God. How is that possible?
Does God have a form? An image that man was made after back in Genesis as ray pointed out?
Who is the Lord Jesus if not God's image and form?
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, THE MAN Christ Jesus;
Php 2:5 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesus:
Php 2:6 In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.
2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Col 1:15 Who [Jesus] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature
And we know Jesus is God:
1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Just adding my thoughts to a very very interesting topic!
God bless,
Alex
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To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
It is not that mankind thinks of God in human form. God made us in the God form. We are His kinfolk. His children. Thus we look like our Father. We are made after the God kind of life. Not angels. We will be at the top of the life chain. It is quite a magnificent thing that God is doing with us. We were special enough that He died for us.
The study of God is endlessly fascinating. Nothing else comes close. What fun!
Agreed. Here is your reference John!
--------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?
COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.
Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?
COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").
So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?
COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27, And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.
Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,
COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!
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Whether we are made in the physical "image" of god rather than just the spiritual image, a process to be consummated at our change to glory, I've always looked at it as we are beings with the ability to communicate with one another and with God. WE know that we are alive and we know that we shall all die and we discuss that knowledge and wonder about it among ourselves and often with God in prayer.
God can create anything God desires to exist and yet he chose to create the masses of human kind by sexual reproduction wherein the humans as mother and father have a part in the creation of new life. On the other hand all the other animal types follow instinct and are unaware mentally or emotionally of a participation in a process leading to a beneficial result that is according to God's great plan for expanding the God family.
I don't see that God has to be either/both male or female as a pattern for the creation of sexual "gender" in human kind. God could be neuter and still invent/create this method of expanding human populations, making it practical and exciting and fun all at the same time. Sexual reproduction is obviously God's desire for the better way to bring billions of thinking beings into HIS family. As the source of the design of males and females God certainly gave us individual attributes that contribute to a good final result, e.g. becoming "one flesh", but stating that God is both male and female could lead to confusion in the minds of those who are not able to make a detailed study of languages used in scripture. e.g. anthropomorphism... Perhaps it is better to just understand that God's love is expressed in two separate ways, one in the female and one in the male, but all joining together to express God's will for how we relate, being from the same mind of God provided for us to emulate.
Kindly offered, indiana bob
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Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).
Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.
"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.
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To make this discussion more interesting, Ray wrote somewhere that for a long time he knew that the word "image" in Genesis in the Hebrew language actually means image or form in the literal sense as in English. It is not just a metaphor or symbol.
I checked Ray out on that point and agree with him.
A few days ago I heard Ray say the opposite - If I find it again I'll post a link here.
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Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?
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Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
"image" H6754
צֶלֶם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
I like "to shade" because it implies the "shadow" of things to come (IMO).
Study the rest of the words in blue. What do you think "vain shew" means? phantom, illusion?
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
If something is "invisible" it cannot have a physical image.
"Image" in these contexts does not mean anything physical.
Hi Dennis,
Perhaps what ray meant was the passages in which the word is used and not just what Dr. Strong's assigned the word to mean?
Why not look at the 17 times the word is used in the old testament? Perhaps the usage of the word could be more helpful to us.
I got these with a quick search in esword for the word, here are all the uses.
Gen_1:26 And GodH430 said,H559 Let us makeH6213 manH120 in our image,H6754 after our likeness:H1823 and let them have dominionH7287 over the fishH1710 of the sea,H3220 and over the fowlH5775 of the air,H8064 and over the cattle,H929 and over allH3605 the earth,H776 and over everyH3605 creeping thingH7431 that creepethH7430 uponH5921 the earth.H776
Gen_1:27 So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 createdH1254 he him; maleH2145 and femaleH5347 createdH1254 he them.
Gen_5:3 And AdamH121 livedH2421 an hundredH3967 and thirtyH7970 years,H8141 and begatH3205 a son in his own likeness,H1823 after his image;H6754 and calledH7121 (H853) his nameH8034 Seth:H8352
Gen_9:6 Whoso sheddethH8210 man'sH120 blood,H1818 by manH120 shall his bloodH1818 be shed:H8210 forH3588 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 madeH6213 he(H853) man.H120
Num_33:52 Then ye shall drive outH3423 (H853) allH3605 the inhabitantsH3427 of the landH776 from beforeH4480 H6440 you, and destroyH6 (H853) allH3605 their pictures,H4906 and destroyH6 allH3605 their moltenH4541 images,H6754 and quite pluck downH8045 allH3605 their high places:H1116
1Sa_6:5 Wherefore ye shall makeH6213 imagesH6754 of your emerods,H6076 and imagesH6754 of your miceH5909 that marH7843 (H853) the land;H776 and ye shall giveH5414 gloryH3519 unto the GodH430 of Israel:H3478 peradventureH194 he will lightenH7043 (H853) his handH3027 from offH4480 H5921 you, and from offH4480 H5921 your gods,H430 and from offH4480 H5921 your land.H776
1Sa_6:11 And they laidH7760 (H853) the arkH727 of the LORDH3068 uponH413 the cart,H5699 and the cofferH712 withH854 the miceH5909 of goldH2091 and the imagesH6754 of their emerods.H2914
2Ki_11:18 And allH3605 the peopleH5971 of the landH776 wentH935 into the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down;H5422 his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 brake they in piecesH7665 thoroughly,H3190 and slewH2026 (H853) MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196 And the priestH3548 appointedH7760 officersH6486 overH5921 the houseH1004 of the LORD.H3068
2Ch_23:17 Then allH3605 the peopleH5971 went toH935 the houseH1004 of Baal,H1168 and brake it down,H5422 and brake his altarsH4196 and his imagesH6754 in pieces,H7665 and slewH2026 MattanH4977 the priestH3548 of BaalH1168 beforeH6440 the altars.H4196
Psa_39:6 SurelyH389 every manH376 walkethH1980 in a vain shew:H6754 surelyH389 they are disquietedH1993 in vain:H1892 he heapeth upH6651 riches, and knowethH3045 notH3808 whoH4310 shall gatherH622 them.
Psa_73:20 As a dreamH2472 when one awaketh;H4480 H6974 so, O Lord,H136 when thou awakest,H5782 thou shalt despiseH959 their image.H6754
Eze_7:20 As for the beautyH6643 of his ornament,H5716 he setH7760 it in majesty:H1347 but they madeH6213 the imagesH6754 of their abominationsH8441 and of their detestable thingsH8251 therein: thereforeH5921 H3651 have I setH5414 it farH5079 from them.
Eze_16:17 Thou hast also takenH3947 thy fairH8597 jewelsH3627 of my goldH4480 H2091 and of my silver,H4480 H3701 whichH834 I had givenH5414 thee, and madestH6213 to thyself imagesH6754 of men,H2145 and didst commit whoredomH2181 with them,
Eze_23:14 And that she increasedH3254 H413 her whoredoms:H8457 for when she sa wH7200 menH376 pourtrayedH2707 uponH5921 the wall,H7023 the imagesH6754 of the ChaldeansH3778 pourtrayedH2710 with vermilion,H8350
Amo_5:26 But ye have borneH5375 (H853) the tabernacleH5522 of your MolochH4432 and ChiunH3594 your images,H6754 the starH3556 of your god,H430 whichH834 ye madeH6213 to yourselves.
The word is used of God's image, man's image, molten images, images of things worshipped, images of men and mice. It does not seem to ever mean a mental representation, or of spiritual qualities, or shadow, or phantom, etc... but that's just what I can see. So couldn't this indeed have more of a literal sense than spiritual?
Doesn't Jesus being the image of the invisible prove the invisible can be given form? We know God is spirit and that Jesus is God. Yet Jesus has form and appears as man. Is this not giving form, shape, image, to the invisible God?
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the FULNESS of the deity BODILY.
John says He will appear and we will see Him as He is. What does it mean to 'appear?'
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
God bless,
Alex
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Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Why would Jesus have to be made in the likeness of men if men were already in the image of God?
I've considered this verse myself as well. It has been demonstrated correctly here on the forums by the scriptures that every time God appeared in the old testament or was seen of the prophets it was in the form of a man (perhaps minus the burning bush). When Moses saw God's backparts, it was that of a man's. When Isaiah saw the throne of God, there was the likeness of a man above it. Abraham witnessed three men of which one of them was Jehovah. Daniel saw one like a son of man in his vision. So God has possessed this form since before Jesus was born of Mary.
We know no verse is becoming its own interpretation so then is it not possible that this reference of coming into the 'form of a slave' and 'likeness of man' means being emptied of immortality and becoming subject to hunger, physical fatigue, the need to use the bathroom, etc...? I would say it has nothing to do with taking on the form of God which mankind is created after and much more with being made flesh and subject to death.
God bless,
Alex
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This first excerpt is from D4 Hell: 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm -----------------------
The very first word to humanity out of Jesus' mouth after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness was "repent..." (Matt. 4:17). And what does "repent" mean? It means to change. And what have I been teaching since we started bible-truths.com? That God is changing physical, carnal humanity into the spiritual Image of God. That's what our existence is all about. This is the purpose for humanity. This is the next goal in the plan of God. To make carnal, physical humanity into the Spiritual Image of God. It's all about change. God is going to change the entire human race.
v
The Christian sinner's prayer: "I hate my sin and I accept the Lord, Amen" won't cut it in the real world. If we desire to be sons and not ********, then there is much work to be done and accomplished by our God in our lives. God does not create sons in His Spiritual Image by magic or ten second prayers. Here then is part of the process and the words used to describe that process of changing carnal human nature into the Spiritual Image of God, which we call salvation.
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This is from the Biblestudy 'WORSHIP IN SPIRIT & TRUTH!'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5312.0.html -----
FIRST COMES THE PHYSICAL AND THEN COMES THE SPIRITUAL
1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Why is the spiritual better than the physical? Well in this life if you are carnal minded, physically minded, materialistically minded, you will think that the natural is better than the spiritual. Try to tell a 12 or 13 year old that the spiritual things mean more than physical things. I mean come on, you know they are into toys and fun and games and sports and clothes and TV. But it’s just so so with the spiritual things.
But the reason that the spiritual is better than the physical is, it’s the only thing that’s going to last, right. The physical is temporary, the natural is temporary and only the spiritual is eonian. But eonian of course leads into eternity. First eonian then eternity.
Again we come back to the idea that Christ was the only perfect example that shows us how to worship God and how to live. The fact is that this image - this one parable that hasn’t been fulfilled yet, making humanity into the image of God, is not yet complete. So do we have an example of what this final ‘Image’ will be like? Yes, we do;
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son…
It would be pretty silly to say we are already spiritually formed into the image of God and now all we have to do, is be conformed into the spiritual image of Christ, it’s nonsense. They are one in the same. Jesus Christ said, I and My Father are One. You can’t be in the spiritual image of GOD, but say, I’m working on the spiritual image of CHRIST aspect. They are One and the same. “I and My Father are One” (John 10:30). This is a progression ‘to be’ conformed into the image of His Son, right? That He might be the first born among many brethren. Look back at 1 John 3.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
v. 3 And every man that hath this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure.
Wow, look at that. So we are called the sons of God. But it does not yet appear what we shall be. But notice that the only ones that shall be, are the ones who purify themselves. They have to purify themselves even as He is pure. See it all comes back to Jesus Christ. We’ve got to conform to His image.
v
So the more we study this Word of God, the more we see it’s all one thing. There is one giant parable and it is this.
Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let Us be making man in Our image…”
There it is! You know the teaching is, that that has already happened. No it didn’t! That is why they don’t understand the Bible, because it didn’t happen back then. Only the physical aspect was back then.
First the physical then the spiritual, that’s the principle. If you don’t believe that principle, how can you believe the Bible? Why do you think the Bible teaches principles, if they aren’t true. If it is true, why don’t you believe it? Does the physical come first and then the spiritual? Yes it does. That’s the principle of God and so He’s making man into God’s image. Are we spirit? No. Is God spirit? Yes. Well if He is making us into HIS image, don’t you think this stinking, rotten, carnal minded body is going to have to change, if we are going to be made into His image? We know it hasn’t happened yet. That’s why people kill each other and hate each other and all the misery and stuff we have among society, because they are not in His image. These people are not in the image of God! But one day they will be.
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This is from LOF 12. 'God Judges the World in a Pond.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------------------------------
Concordant Version: "And saying is the Alueim [Hebrew: elohiym, gods or used of the supreme God--plural of elowahh, a deity or the Deity], Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).
So we see here the same thing we have already discussed with regards to the Greek aorist tense of verbs, as in "For God so lovED the world" versus "For thus God lovES the world." God’s love for the world CONTINUES! And creating man in God’s image also CONTINUES!
Lustful, carnal-minded, sinning, Adam and Eve were no more in the complete image of God at their physical creation than the Apostles were completely converted during the schooling under Christ’s teaching. It is all an ongoing process. We are even still being converted, and still being perfected, and still becoming more and more like God. How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve where in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!
"For whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate TO BE conformed to the image of His Son…" (Rom. 8:29).
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).
Presently, only Jesus Christ is the true "Image of God" (II Cor. 4:4).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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From Kat's post quoting Ray:
"It would be pretty silly to say we are already spiritually formed into the image of God and now all we have to do, is be conformed into the spiritual image of Christ, it’s nonsense."
"How often I have heard preachers remark how Adam and Eve were in the very IMAGE OF GOD. THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!"
And as Ray has said many times: "If the church teaches it, it is wrong."
I have yet to find anything the church teaches (not what they say) of any consequence to be true.
"First the physical then the spiritual."
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Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let Us be making man in Our image…”
if we to understand clearly the word "image" that God is making us, it is clearly understood that image means both PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY.
PHYSICALLY
And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).
1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).
as Ray's said "First the physical then the spiritual, that’s the principle"
God does not make man immediately in His image Spiritually but make man in His image first Physically literal meaning (as of the form of man). Man should have experienced good and evil and repent; and then God transforming man into God's image Spiritually.
SPIRITUALLY
THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!
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Gen 1:26 “And God said, Let Us be making man in Our image…”
if we to understand clearly the word "image" that God is making us, it is clearly understood that image means both PHYSICALLY and SPIRITUALLY.
PHYSICALLY
And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them" (Gen. 1:26a & 27).
1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we SHALL also bear the image of the heavenly" (I Cor. 15:49).
as Ray's said "First the physical then the spiritual, that’s the principle"
God does not make man immediately in His image Spiritually but make man in His image first Physically literal meaning (as of the form of man). Man should have experienced good and evil and repent; and then God transforming man into God's image Spiritually.
SPIRITUALLY
THE TRUE IMAGE OF GOD DOES NOT SIN!
Hi Santa
I agree with you. I don't think anyone was saying that simply because the word 'image' carries a more literal sense that we suddenly do away with the reality that humanity is being confirmed into God's spiritual image through a process. I used that very point to show that paul's usage of 'image' in the new testament is most peculiar and must carry a more literal sense as found in the hebrew meaning of the word.
I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.
At least, this is my impression.
God bless,
Alex
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I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.
At least, this is my impression.
God bless,
Alex
I don't understand what you mean Alex. Where did Ray say this?
Are you saying Jesus is now in heaven with a physical body?
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I don't think ray was doing away with that either when he pointed out that the word image carries a more literal sense as seen in genesis and the old testament.
At least, this is my impression.
God bless,
Alex
I don't understand what you mean Alex. Where did Ray say this?
Are you saying Jesus is now in heaven with a physical body?
I linked previous on the first page Dennis.
Here it is again;
--------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456---------
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
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Spiritual and moral would imply a more metaphorical or symbolic meaning were as the idea that the word never carries such sense implies that the "form, image, and shape," are more literal in their meaning. At least that is point I think ray is trying to make in saying this.
So what I'm saying is God has a "form/image/shape." This is what He created humanity after and you can find this in the many genesis references that have been shared and paul's usage of the word in the new testaement as well.
I never said Jesus has a 'physical body' because we know He has a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Philipians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philipians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I've shared these scriptures because I think they are relevant to this discussion of image, form, and shape.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him [Jesus] dwelleth all the FULNESS of the deity BODILY.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
John 14:8-10
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
God bless,
Alex
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The Son (who became Jesus) was brought forth first in this creation (John 17:5) and given the image/shape/form of a man from the very beginning... as it seems He has the image of a man even when seen in the OT in His glorious form in a vision by Ezekiel.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their (some kind of angel called "living creatures" v.5) heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
H120
'âdâm; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
My thinking is the Son/Jesus was given the shape of a man, not as in physical flesh and blood, but likeness as in figure/form, because that same shape was also what the humans would be created in. So this gives us a God we can relate to, as we recognize the figure of a man and we can relate to being 'like' Him as we can more readily identify with Him. There are also a couple of Scripture that indicate that mankind already resemble or has a likeness to His image/shape, for us this is in a physical form.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image(G1504) and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
G1504
eikōn; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: - image.
James 3:9 With it (the tongue) we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness(G3669) of God.
G3669
homoiōsis; assimilation, that is, resemblance: - similitude.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness(H1823) of God.
H1823
demûth; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image(H6754) of God He made man.
H6754
tselem; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
I do not believe any of these Scripture that I have presented are speaking of us in a spiritual image, that is a process that only starts when the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, but we all have the same likeness as in form/shape. Just wanted to bring out these Scripture for consideration.
mercy, peace and love
Kat