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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: levycarneiro on November 30, 2012, 12:24:27 AM
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Hello guys,
did Ray ever commented further on these ideas?
"[Why did the Lord make them?] Well I don’t know. I’ll tell you something else I don’t know why did He take so long to do this? I have some ideas, but I’m not going to put those out until I have a couple more years to meditate on it."
From Nashville 2008 Conference (Creation).
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I'm not sure in so many words. He did say in the follow up that, while nothing is impossible for God, that doesn't mean things weren't almost impossible.
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Thanks Dave. I believe this phrase was from the video on the origin of God's wisdom.
Thanks!
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Perhaps time is just a figment of our physical existance. What seems as ages to us is nothing to God.
Craig
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Perhaps time is just a figment of our physical existance. What seems as ages to us is nothing to God.
Craig
Good point, "1 day is 1000 days to God". This is very mysterious to me, as if we believe God took a long time to birth Wisdom, maybe we can assume that He would really take a long time to create the Universe too. Or maybe we can't really.
Just conjectures obviously. Anyway this verse is a good one, and I hope to learn more about it someday :)
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Well to me the physical existence is for the experience we gain from it. Something that happens quickly may soon be forgotten, but when you have to experience it for a length of time it tends to stick in your brain more. So I think it is taking so long so as to make this all a more memorable experience.
But then again with the idea of eternity this creation is not really a long time. Even in the time that there has been a creation (13.75 billion years old) the human race has been here only a very short part of that time. Here is something I found on the internet that help you understand how long the human race has been here.
Here's an example to demonstrate the length of time that human beings have existed when compared to the time from Earth's formation:
Observe the length of your arm from your shoulder to your fingertips. This will represent geologic time; the time from the formation of the Earth. Run a fingernail file across the end of the fingernail of your longest finger. You have just erased the period of time in which Homo sapiens has existed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well to me the physical existence is for the experience we gain from it. Something that happens quickly may soon be forgotten, but when you have to experience it for a length of time it tends to stick in your brain more. So I think it is taking so long so as to make this all a more memorable experience.
But then again with the idea of eternity this creation is not really a long time. Even in the time that there has been a creation (13.75 billion years old) the human race has been here only a very short part of that time. Here is something I found on the internet that help you understand how long the human race has been here.
Here's an example to demonstrate the length of time that human beings have existed when compared to the time from Earth's formation:
Observe the length of your arm from your shoulder to your fingertips. This will represent geologic time; the time from the formation of the Earth. Run a fingernail file across the end of the fingernail of your longest finger. You have just erased the period of time in which Homo sapiens has existed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Wonderful example! Thanks! :)
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IMO, if God has a natural way of doing things, He uses it even if it takes billions of years (remember how Ray talked about God being patient?).
But sometimes He needs a miracle.
God cannot lie. So what you see in the universe and on this planet is the truth. It took billions of years to get here.
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IMO, if God has a natural way of doing things, He uses it even if it takes billions of years (remember how Ray talked about God being patient?).
But sometimes He needs a miracle.
God cannot lie. So what you see in the universe and on this planet is the truth. It took billions of years to get here.
Got you, this must be God's natural way of doing things. It took billions of years, I believe that.
What do you mean by needing a miracle sometimes?
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Perhaps time is just a figment of our physical existance. What seems as ages to us is nothing to God.
Craig
I agree, but I do wonder if what we think is just the opposite of how God is sustaining all.
Bluzman
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Sorry that I posted my quote incorrectly. Bluzman
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What do you mean by needing a miracle sometimes?
Just that, sometimes that's the best option, like parting the Red Sea.
That's a big miracle but I suspect there are millions of small miracles everyday, like planting thoughts in our head that substantially change our direction in life (like finding this site).
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What do you mean by needing a miracle sometimes?
Just that, sometimes that's the best option, like parting the Red Sea.
That's a big miracle but I suspect there are millions of small miracles everyday, like planting thoughts in our head that substantially change our direction in life (like finding this site).
Got it, awesome :)
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Perhaps time is just a figment of our physical existance. What seems as ages to us is nothing to God.
Craig
Yeah, I like that "perhaps." :)
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Well to me the physical existence is for the experience we gain from it. Something that happens quickly may soon be forgotten, but when you have to experience it for a length of time it tends to stick in your brain more. So I think it is taking so long so as to make this all a more memorable experience.
But then again with the idea of eternity this creation is not really a long time. Even in the time that there has been a creation (13.75 billion years old) the human race has been here only a very short part of that time. Here is something I found on the internet that help you understand how long the human race has been here.
Here's an example to demonstrate the length of time that human beings have existed when compared to the time from Earth's formation:
Observe the length of your arm from your shoulder to your fingertips. This will represent geologic time; the time from the formation of the Earth. Run a fingernail file across the end of the fingernail of your longest finger. You have just erased the period of time in which Homo sapiens has existed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Huuumm Good!
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Like Dennis said, lets not forget patience and longsuffering.
Neither one of these attributes of God wouldn't mean anything without a great passage of time.
Compare the longest time you had to wait for something you really wanted compared to God waiting for the salvation of his children.
Big difference!
Has anyone ever considered we will have to wait for an equally long time or something similar?
If ruling and reigning in the kingdom means having the responsibility to save others how long will that process take?
Has this crossed anyone's mind?
Antaiwan
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Like Dennis said, lets not forget patience and longsuffering.
Neither one of these attributes of God wouldn't mean anything without a great passage of time.
Compare the longest time you had to wait for something you really wanted compared to God waiting for the salvation of his children.
Big difference!
Has anyone ever considered we will have to wait for an equally long time or something similar?
If ruling and reigning in the kingdom means having the responsibility to save others how long will that process take?
Has this crossed anyone's mind?
Antaiwan
Good catch, never thought about that.
Not to be Captain Obvious, but more and more I see there's something special about Patience.
"Knowing {this}, that the trying of your faith works patience.
But let patience have {her} perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. " James 1:3-4
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You know Levy, Captain Obvious has a pretty cool cape and a nice shield for dodging bullets!LOL
Antaiwan
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Like Dennis said, lets not forget patience and longsuffering.
Neither one of these attributes of God wouldn't mean anything without a great passage of time.
Compare the longest time you had to wait for something you really wanted compared to God waiting for the salvation of his children.
Big difference!
Has anyone ever considered we will have to wait for an equally long time or something similar?
If ruling and reigning in the kingdom means having the responsibility to save others how long will that process take?
Has this crossed anyone's mind?
Antaiwan
That is a great question, Antaiwan. It's a very high calling. I would imagine it would take as long as it takes. I think of Paul and everything he went through with the shipwrecks and imprisonments, stonings, the churches, the messenger of Satan to buffet him, and still he was of the opinion that they were all light and momentary afflictions. That was some patience that was working in Paul!
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You know Levy, Captain Obvious has a pretty cool cape and a nice shield for dodging bullets!LOL
Antaiwan
LOL
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This is HOW LONG our lives are in the context of the universe:
For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears. (James 4:14)
Now, if 1000 years is about a day for God, 13.75 billion years should equate to about 137 million five hundred thousand (137,500,000) of our days! Or roughly 37,671 of our years! This means that since the creation of the universe, 37,671 years have passed on God's calendar. Talk about patience! I pose a question: what did He do all that time BEFORE ANY life appeared on the face of this planet?
When it comes to eternity, I've read that it will be void of time. Time will cease to exist after the last eon comes to an end. In chapter 21 of the Book of Revelation, John wrote that God would live with His people in a new heaven and a new earth where the old order of things has passed away.
Any of you have an insight regarding time after the last eon?
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Hi theophilus,
Ray did a Bible study in 08n called 'Time and Eternity,' here are the links.
audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 2.mp3
video
http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I know we all think of a year as a long period of time, it is, on this planet speaking relatively. But how long is a year for our sun, which revolves around the center of our galaxy? Or how long is a year for our galaxy which revolves around the center of the universe? It all reminds me of a song from my "sesame street" childhood, "that's about the size ,where you put your eyes. That's about the size of it" . Since we can only see the magnificent creation of God from our own vantage point (on a tiny planet, circling a tiny star) how in this life will we ever understand the scope and magnitude of this physical creation? It is God who did it in his time, maybe it really happened in just a few seconds in Gods perspective? Not to worry family, all of these questions and more will be answered in full in Gods time. ;)
Greg
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I think "1000 years to God" just means infinity. We perceive time, and God is out of time.
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According to scientist the universe is still growing, or expanding.
Jesus gave a couple examples that require time, and speak concerning the kingdom of God.
Luke 13:18 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19: It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
20:And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the Kingdom of God?
21: It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Joel
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Hi theophilus,
Ray did a Bible study in 08n called 'Time and Eternity,' here are the links.
audios
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible
video
http://bible-truths.com/video/study113008.wmv
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thank you for the links Kat! :)
I heard Ray say that in his teens he heard on TV that time is a location, that he added "geographical" to location. In other words, time is a geographical location. I suspect Ray was thinking of time as being the fourth dimension.
This reminded me that scientists theorize that time STOPS at the event horizon of a black hole. Einstein's theory of relativity predicts this phenomenon. The event horizon of a black hole is that point from where an object cannot escape its gravitational pull nor does it fall INTO the black hole. This is when time stops, say for a space traveler, if his spaceship reaches the event horizon. This means that time is relative. Time in the spatial frame of a black hole runs differently from our spatial frame, for instance.
BTW, your first two links are broken. Only the link for the video is working.
Mercy, peace and love to you too.
Roger.
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Try here Roger. Bottom of the page.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html)
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Hi Roger,
Well I really don't see how time can stop at one point, event horizon of a black hole, and continue on everywhere else. I know it's just a theory, but doesn't sound right to me.
I don't think Ray was speaking of a 'fourth dimension,' he was speaking of the here and now, in the physical, but beyond as well. Time is not a substance or a thing, but a relation between things, the relation between changes in things. I think you could say that time is the measure of change in the physical world now, but will continue as we move beyond the physical.
I haven't read this transcript in quite a while and there is much to be gained from it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.msg90948.html#msg90948 ----
Psa 102:25 …and the heavens [are] the work of Your (Comment: This is speaking of God.) hands.
v. :26 They shall perish (Comment: What? The heavens and the earth.), but You shall endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:
v. 27 But You [art] the same, and Your years shall have no end.
Didn’t we read from both of these people (being discussed in this study) that when the creation is done away with that there will be no time? When there is no sun will there be years? No? “All of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed: But You [art] the same, and Your YEARS shall have no end.” “Shall have” present progressive into the future, “no end.”
Didn’t J. Preston Eby say that the way to tell if the Bible is talking about something that continues, the Bible uses the phrase “no end?’ I read that right at the beginning, he knows that. Here’s one that says, the years of God. You say, ‘well it’s talking about spiritual years.’ It doesn’t matter, he uses the word “years, shall have no end.” Who you going to believe the Bible or theologians, Christian ministers.
Luke 1:33 …and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
Now it doesn’t say what about the kingdom, it just says “of the kingdom.” Whatever pertains to the kingdom will have “no end.”
Let’s go to Proverbs next. This is the one I used at the conference. Remember I had all of those words; processes, events, happenings, changing and remember they used them all interchangeably... all this has to do with the physical universe and time, has nothing to do before or after the creation. Wrong paleface.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, BEFORE His works of old.
"Before"… ‘You mean some-time before?’ Well yea, I would think sometime before.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting (aonian), from the beginning, or ever (That means before) the earth was.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Einstein is greatly overrated. His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang. Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another. There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s. Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.
God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).
In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.
And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.
And with all due respect, you greatly underrate him. No one else in his time was able to understand and discover what he did. Not even Niels Bohr! In my lowly opinion, these two gentlemen were luminaries, geniuses in their own right. Having said this, his theories are by no means complete, as are not Bohr's theories either, but are an echelon in man's quest for a unifying theory that might explain the workings of our universe. I don't think he ever claimed that his theories explained or summed up how the universe works. Quantum mechanics was the next echelon and God only knows what will be next.
Nowadays, physicists are very excited by the discovery of THE FIELD, or THE DIVINE MATRIX. This is what they're calling this "field" that fills up "empty space". In fact, it permeates EVERYTHING--even us. According to the physicists working on this, we are all connected through this field, even the animals and inanimate objects. They're claiming that his field displays PURE INTELLIGENCE.
Let's wait and see what comes out of this.
Blessings.
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Hi Roger,
Well I really don't see how time can stop at one point, event horizon of a black hole, and continue on everywhere else. I know it's just a theory, but doesn't sound right to me.
I don't think Ray was speaking of a 'fourth dimension,' he was speaking of the here and now, in the physical, but beyond as well. Time is not a substance or a thing, but a relation between things, the relation between changes in things. I think you could say that time is the measure of change in the physical world now, but will continue as we move beyond the physical.
I haven't read this transcript in quite a while and there is much to be gained from it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10538.msg90948.html#msg90948 ----
Psa 102:25 …and the heavens [are] the work of Your (Comment: This is speaking of God.) hands.
v. :26 They shall perish (Comment: What? The heavens and the earth.), but You shall endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed:
v. 27 But You [art] the same, and Your years shall have no end.
Didn’t we read from both of these people (being discussed in this study) that when the creation is done away with that there will be no time? When there is no sun will there be years? No? “All of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shall You change them, and they shall be changed: But You [art] the same, and Your YEARS shall have no end.” “Shall have” present progressive into the future, “no end.”
Didn’t J. Preston Eby say that the way to tell if the Bible is talking about something that continues, the Bible uses the phrase “no end?’ I read that right at the beginning, he knows that. Here’s one that says, the years of God. You say, ‘well it’s talking about spiritual years.’ It doesn’t matter, he uses the word “years, shall have no end.” Who you going to believe the Bible or theologians, Christian ministers.
Luke 1:33 …and of His kingdom there shall be no end.
Now it doesn’t say what about the kingdom, it just says “of the kingdom.” Whatever pertains to the kingdom will have “no end.”
Let’s go to Proverbs next. This is the one I used at the conference. Remember I had all of those words; processes, events, happenings, changing and remember they used them all interchangeably... all this has to do with the physical universe and time, has nothing to do before or after the creation. Wrong paleface.
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, BEFORE His works of old.
"Before"… ‘You mean some-time before?’ Well yea, I would think sometime before.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting (aonian), from the beginning, or ever (That means before) the earth was.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hello Kat, thanks agains for the resources.
Time is another dimension in our three-dimensional universe. You can tell me WHERE you are right now by giving me your coordinates. Suppose I were to meet with you and took a plane. I might get there in a few hours. You will probably not be there but someplace else. You didn't tell the WHEN part of your whereabouts. My point is wherever we are geographically, there is also a time component. I'm typing this around 5:10 pm on January 29, 2013. This is the fourth dimension I'm talking about: TIME.
If TIME will continue to be in ETERNITY, then time itself is already or will be eternal. Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it? It's been claimed that God has ALWAYS EXISTED. You realize that ALWAYS is talking about time. So, maybe TIME is ETERNAL, since God has ALWAYS EXISTED. I don't think people realize what this statement means when they say it. The conclusion is that time has been God's companion. I conclude this IF AND ONLY IF God has ALWAYS existed.
Maybe it's incorrect to say God has always existed; maybe a more accurate observation would be GOD IS, regardless of whether we talk of the past, present or the future. God IS in the past, God IS in the present and God IS in the future. Also, God IS before the creation of the Universe.
Blessings
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Einstein is greatly overrated. His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang. Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another. There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s. Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.
God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).
In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.
And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.
Yes, John. God is working THROUGH time. But this doesn't mean that God is bound by time. I believe time exists INSIDE our universe. You said the universe is expanding. What's the medium it's expanding in? Is time running in that medium? or is time running only in our universe? Like I commented to Kat, if God HAS ALWAYS existed, then time has always existed too. Existence has to do with time. This is why I say that this statement might be incorrect.
Blessings.
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Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it?
~Theo
I can only imagine. ::)
Not to be snarky, but no one can give you a satisfactory response to that question because no one knows the answer to that - and how could we? We haven't gotten there yet! See?
Who wants to bet God knows what we'll do with all that time? ;)
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Too true.
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Too true is right and I like what you said John - God and He alone is the only One Who impresses me.
I'm not sure about all this Einstein stuff but then me brain not so well.
All I know about time is that there is never enough of it each day to get everything done.
When your in God's presence time moves on pretty fast. I was once praying for 5-6 hours and it only seemed like 1 hour. When your with God time has no affect but perhaps that just me.
Oddball Rhys
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Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.
e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.
Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.
Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.
It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.
Indiana Bob
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Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.
e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.
Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.
Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.
It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.
Indiana Bob
iBob,
We want it yesterday.
:)
.
.
.
.
.
v
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Pleasure moves on too early and trouble leaves too slow.
~Joni Mitchell~
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Einstein is greatly overrated. His theories do not predict what happens on the other side of a black hole, nor what it was like before the Big Bang. Also, his General Theory of Relativity did not predict the expansion of the universe at an ever increasing velocity the further objects become from one another. There is still no adequate proven explanation for that phenomena discovered in the later 1990s. Also, his explanation of gravity is inadequate.
God's name of Jehovah (Yahweh) means "He is coming", (in Hebrew,third person singular, incomplete action, thus in future time).
In Revelation, God is called "Is, Was, and Will Be",-----an existence in time.
And Ray's quotation of the Scriptures showing God is working through time.
Yes, John. God is working THROUGH time. But this doesn't mean that God is bound by time. I believe time exists INSIDE our universe. You said the universe is expanding. What's the medium it's expanding in? Is time running in that medium? or is time running only in our universe? Like I commented to Kat, if God HAS ALWAYS existed, then time has always existed too. Existence has to do with time. This is why I say that this statement might be incorrect.
Blessings.
God and He alone is the only One Who impresses me.
The Scriptures tell us what a man is, "Dust you are and to dust you shall return." Dirt doesn't do anything for me. Any being that has to eat food and breathe air to live, and has to use the bathroom, just does not impress me.
Einstein is dead, and the great ( ;D) man's brain has been cut up into little pieces for study. Not impressive at all.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You say "if God HAS ALWAYS existed". ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hello John, the Scriptures also tell us to LOVE OUR FELLOW MAN, nor to disparage them. To me, it makes no difference whether they're alive or dead.
Certainly, it goes without saying that God impress us all like no one else ever could. I'm not talking about idolizing anybody. For that matter, abandon any and all technology that you now use because certain unimpressive people invented it. Since the "dusty" inventor doesn't impress you at all, much less his contributions to humanity.
Certainly God impresses me, and this without having seen Him, but on a different level a human calculator impresses me for her ability to crunch numbers in her head; maybe you can do it. If you did, I'd be impressed, but not on the same level as God impresses me. This is totally different. Any human achievement will always fall short of God's knowledge and capabilities. Like I said, this goes without saying.
[Einstein is dead, and the great ( ;D) man's brain has been cut up into little pieces for study. Not impressive at all]
A lack of respect for the dead appears to be expressed by your paragraph above. That's not my attitude towards them, as unimpressive as they might be. I come from a war-torn country. I myself still have shrapnels in my body from a tank shell that exploded in our midst. I witnessed heavy machinery shovel the dead into mass graves. Maybe this experience causes me to have respect for the dead. I don't know.
The phrase I used "if God HAS ALWAYS existed" is used by countless Christians and non-Christians when discussing eternity and God. That's why I capitalized "has always". As I expressed to Kat, to speak of God EXISTING or HAS ALWAYS EXISTED might not be descriptive of the actual truth regarding His existence. Contrary to what you might think, I do not doubt God's existence.
In His Name
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Perhaps we should use care in attributing anthropomorphic limitations to the Creator God.
e.g. That God waits patiently for humanity to spread across the earth and become as numerous as the sands of the sea does not necessarily prove that God was limited to that method. It could just as reasonably be that God chooses to use time to teach us what God already knows about patience because God invented it or HAD it from the beginning.
Another example might be that God actually enjoys guiding and watching us grow in grace and knowledge and does not need to have a rapid result. In other words he enjoys living and working with all of us and watching our progress. It is only mankind that wants quick results, but God knows the end from the beginning.
Think of the conception and development of God's only begotten son Lord Jesus. A period of thirty some years which God monitored every day for some 12000 days. Then for the next couple of thousand years watching his perfect and faithful son lead, govern and manage the growth and development of all those that Father God had given him, the called and chosen.
It's not about winning the game because that is a foregone conclusion, rather it is being in the game as the owner/head coach and participating in bringing all the sons of God into the family, individually, one at a time. That's what God loves, that's God's reward, watching His children develop their talents.
Indiana Bob
You might be right! That would be God's JOY. We can speculate all day long about many things, but what matters is that God is accomplishing His will and purpose for each of us by having us grow to the full stature of His Son Jesus Christ. I believe that He is actively involved in all that happens on this little planet 24/7. He is busy!
God bless you.
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Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it?
~Theo
I can only imagine. ::)
Not to be snarky, but no one can give you a satisfactory response to that question because no one knows the answer to that - and how could we? We haven't gotten there yet! See?
Who wants to bet God knows what we'll do with all that time? ;)
My bad! My question was a rhetorical one. I wasn't expecting anyone to know. I know this is something that hasn't been revealed to man.
But I do remember Ray say something about God using His chosen ones to bring the rest of humankind to salvation, and later THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE. His statement is very intriguing and brings up more questions. I'm sure you have thought about this already.
Here it is!!!:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13817.msg121839.html#msg121839
Ray's words:
Here is where we really get to what OUR salvation is all about. We, the BODY of Christ, who ARE the SONS OF GOD will be used to SAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE!! "Or are you not aware that the SAINTS shall judge the WORLD?... Are you not aware that we shall be JUDGING ANGELS..."
More questions indeed....
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This is from the 06 conference 'THE FATHER'S WILL?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------
John 10:30 I and the Father are one!
They’re not the same person, but ‘one,’ there’s a difference. But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
v
So He is God, but He is not His own Father. Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father; Luke 10:22; John 6:46;
Matt 11:27, Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.
Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him. The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.
v
If you want to come up with an analogy of where God is in His own realm, as far as time goes. The closest physical analogy you could come up with is a circle. Not starting back there and going this way, that way is the past and this way is the future.
Now if the realm of eternity is as a circle, can somebody point to where eternity begins on a circle? Can anyone show me, on this circle, where eternity ends? You can’t, can you.
Now I’ll give you another little mind boggler, not only can you not show me where it begins or where it ends, I’m telling you it has no beginning and it has no end. It doesn’t move in a circle, it is a circle. Therefore time has nothing to do with eternity.
Even your dictionaries most of them, not all, say eternity is an endless period. Eternity has nothing to do with time, time starts here and goes to there.
Eternity is like a circle, you can’t find the beginning and you can’t find the end. Because it has no beginning and it has no end. Therefore in that sense a circle is ultimate truth. So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is. That’s where He introduces Himself to us. We are introduced to a being who is perfect.
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Since God the Father embodies a timeless eternity - therefore being apart from time or outside of time and time exists only within the created universe. It's God the Father only, He is eternal, because Jesus Christ is part of creation.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
Wasn't 'time' part of God's plan worked out in wisdom from before this creation? It must be, so the Father perceives something like time one way, but it might appear differently to the finite beings contained within it.
His existence is not actually spread out in time or space, as the existence of material objects are, but His existence is all at once. So it is not that the Father has always existed for as long as time has existed, but that God does not exist in time at all. He is apart from His creation, transcendent over it.
God is outside of time and time exists only within the created universe, all conscious beings are built to perceive time as a chain of events. since the brain presumably perceives time through information processing of external stimuli (experiences) and obeys the laws of causality. This creation is contingent on time and its changes are marked by time. Time is not a substance or a thing, but a relation between things, or more exactly a relation between changes in things.
Using the analogy Ray had of the circle, maybe it's like the idea of the Father possesses life all at once, as the center of a circle with time being represented by the circumference. The relation of the center of the circle to one point on its circumference is the same as its relation to any other point on it. To the Father all points in time are equally 'real,' not just the present. And this circle can expand out continuously.
Luke 1:33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."
The Father has self-existence/sufficiency, is perfection. So that He is changeless, will not change for the worse and does not need to change for the better.
The future is undetermined from the perspective of human beings, but in fact it is fixed and certainly determined by a sovereign God.
I struggle with these ethereal ideas and I've read these encyclopedia articles, though I do not agree with much of any of the theologies from philosophers throughout history, I did put together most of these thoughts from the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time)
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/eternity/
People with minds more attuned to this feel free to show me the error in any of this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Like I've imagined on many occasions, eternity WILL BE A VERY LONG TIME. What will we do with it?
~Theo
I can only imagine. ::)
Not to be snarky, but no one can give you a satisfactory response to that question because no one knows the answer to that - and how could we? We haven't gotten there yet! See?
Who wants to bet God knows what we'll do with all that time? ;)
My bad! My question was a rhetorical one. I wasn't expecting anyone to know. I know this is something that hasn't been revealed to man.
But I do remember Ray say something about God using His chosen ones to bring the rest of humankind to salvation, and later THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE. His statement is very intriguing and brings up more questions. I'm sure you have thought about this already.
Here it is!!!:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13817.msg121839.html#msg121839
Ray's words:
Here is where we really get to what OUR salvation is all about. We, the BODY of Christ, who ARE the SONS OF GOD will be used to SAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE!! "Or are you not aware that the SAINTS shall judge the WORLD?... Are you not aware that we shall be JUDGING ANGELS..."
More questions indeed....
Oh yes, I see where you were going with that. Yes, I do remember that, and I, too, wonder about that myself. God will prepare those who He elects to bring salvation to all. From my vantage point at this moment in time, I imagine it'll be pretty exhilerating if you're one of the elect, and humbling if you're one of those being called to salvation and going through the lake of fire. One thing is for sure, no elect person will be "lording it over" anyone. But the elect must have a backbone. That's essential. :)
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Hi Gina,
Liked your reply.
One question though; what did you mean by the last sentence?
One thing is for sure, no elect person will be "lording it over" anyone. But the elect must have a backbone. That's essential. :)
What I'm wondering is when do we need the "backbone" or the courage of our convictions or what else that may mean? Is it an attribute we develop during this life or a gift? And why is it needed after we are spiritual and have real humility along with the power to speak with authority?
I would like to learn a little more on this topic.
Indiana Bob
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Um hm, I see you're back to your old ways, iBob. Alrighty then...Tell ya what? Watch this gif while I formulate my reply. Check out the backbone on that guy!
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m07giyEep01qbbs8oo1_400.gif)
(Nooooo! Don't answer that, Gina -- trick question!!)
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Wasn't 'time' part of God's plan worked out in wisdom from before this creation? So that the Father perceives something like time one way and it might appear differently to the finite beings contained within it. His existence is not actually spread out in time or space, as the existence of material objects are, but His existence is all at once. So it is not that the Father has always existed for as long as time has existed, but that God does not exist in time at all. He is apart from His creation, transcendent over it.
kathy, the above statement is so awesome. such a great explanation reflecting God the Father's glory. and power.
claudia
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In this thread reference has been made to:
1. Einstein's theory of relativity
2. the Big Bang
3. the expansion of the universe at an ever-increasing velocity the further objects become from one another
4. black holes
1. Einstein's theory of relativity
Professor Herbert Dingle, once a relativist, who as a relativist wrote "Relativity for All" and "The Special Theory of Relativity", and an article on the subject in Encyclopaedia Britannica, changed his mind, a scientific repentance. He later wrote in his book Science at the Crossroads, which can be downloaded from the Internet, a simple easy to understand refutation of the theory of special relativity. Here is the refutation, from page 7:
It would naturally be supposed that the point at issue, even if less esoteric than it is generally supposed to be, must still be too subtle and profound for the ordinary reader to be expected to understand it. On the contrary, it is of the most extreme simplicity. According to the theory, if you have two exactly similar clocks, A and B, and one is moving with respect to the other, they must work at different rates (a more detailed, but equally simple, statement is given on pp. 45-6, but this gives the full essence of the matter), i.e. one works more slowly than the other. But the theory also requires that you cannot distinguish which clock is the 'moving' one; it is equally true to say that A rests while B moves and that B rests while A moves. The question therefore arises: how does one determine, consistently with the theory, which clock works the more slowly? Unless this question is answerable, the theory unavoidably requires that A works more slowly than B and B more slowly than A --which it requires no super-intelligence to see is impossible. Now, clearly, a theory that requires an impossibility cannot be true, and scientific integrity requires, therefore, either that the question just posed shall be answered, or else that the theory shall be acknowledged to be false. But, as I have said, more than 13 years of continuous effort have failed to produce either response. The question is left by the experimenters to the mathematical specialists, who either ignore it or shroud it in various obscurities, while experiments involving enormous physical risk go on being performed.
2. the Big Bang
Here is a website: http://www.cosmologystatement.org, in which is detailed an open letter to the Scientific Community and which was published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004. There were 34 original signers. Many more have since signed.
The first paragraph and up to the first sentence of the second paragraph says:
The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory.
But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors.
(The end of sixth paragraph): …in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.
3. the expansion of the universe at an ever-increasing velocity the further objects become from one another
Halton C. Arp is a professional astronomer who has found evidence that disagrees with the theory that the more the red shift that a galaxy displays the further it is away. He has observed bright quasars with a large values of red shift linked to galaxies with a low value of red shift, and even two galaxies that are linked together but with different red shifts. Galaxy NGC 7319, with a red shift of 0.0225, has a quasar in front of it with a red shift of 2.114. Because these observational results mean that red shift is not an indicator of speed of recession, or distance from the earth, this kills the Big Bang theory, which is based on such assumptions. This is not acceptable to mainstream science.
What happened, or is happening, to Dr Arp? Here is a quote from electric-cosmos.org:
Instead of nominating him for a prize (and simultaneously reexamining their assumption that "redshift equals distance"), Arp was (and continues to be) systematically denied publication of his results and refused telescope time. One would at least expect the "powers that be" to immediately turn the Chandra X-ray orbiting telescope, the Hubble space telescope, and all the big land based telescopes toward Arp's exciting discoveries in order to either confirm or disprove them once and for all. Instead, these objects have been completely excluded from examination. Official photographs are routinely cropped to exclude them.
We are told that scientists know the detail of the distance to the stars, but according to Scripture:
Jeremiah 31:37
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
4. Black Holes
A couple of quotes from the Introduction of The Electric Universe by Wallace Thornhill and David Talbott:
This is a universe filled with black holes, dark matter, dark energy, and other incomprehensible objects and forces, all with one thing in common: they remain unseen and inaccessible under known laws of physics.
and:
In their devotion to mathematical abstractions, cosmologists wrote themselves a blank check, with the freedom to invent anything necessary to save the theory when observations didn’t fit.
And an appropriate quote from Professor Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, in regard to mainstream cosmological science:
They defend the old theories by complicating things to the point of incomprehensibility.
Oatmeal
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Hi Oatmeal,
None of this is surprising to me. I've been reading for days trying to find some answers to basic questions and what I find is that most of the theories are based on fallacies or man's incomplete understanding of things.
Where philosophy is concerned there is the almost universal belief of free will and that God is eternal (which the Father is) and then they can't explain the person of Jesus Christ as a eternal Being, (which you can't, He isn't).
It is so hard to read through all the jargon to get to any real solid knowledge. Like you're saying, many times in their stupidity to save a 'pet' theory, they cover up truth... that's the way God intends it.
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Oatmeal and Kat, thanks for your counsel.
There is a reason why much of science theory, that which cannot be demonstrated, ends up in comic books and TV fiction. It is the exercise of the human imagination, which thing is fine for immature youth, but lacking in those who by this time should be using strong meat, verifiable facts alone.
A lover of real science, Indiana Bob
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Thank you for your reply Kat. It was very encouraging to me.
I hope that I have not offended anyone in the use of their words in any of the 4 headings.
Oatmeal
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General Relativity is used in real-life applications every day. Your GPS would not work without taking it into account.
I don't want the last word, but I'm compelled to remind everybody of this: The bottom-line of what Ray taught was that what is TRUE in the scientific sense is TRUE in the Scriptural sense. We are not going to resolve scientific debates here on the forum. It's not going to happen.
Study all you want to. Nobody will ever be convinced of anything if their hearts and minds are already made up. No amount of data, observation, reasoning, mathematics is sufficient for everybody, even if everybody could understand it. As long as there is a "question", the mind of man will seek to fill the void.
This forum is to discuss what Ray teaches on Bible-Truths.com.
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I am posting this now to provide more indication right now of the pauperism of mainstream science, and by thus showing the necessity of proving doctrine from the Scriptures rather than from science.
In this thread I made mention, with some evidence, in regard to:
1. An easy to understand refutation of Einstein's theory of Special Relativity written by a scientist who once taught Relativity.
2. An open stand made by scientists against the big bang theory who stated that without hypothetical entities/fudge factors such as dark matter and dark energy, things that have never been observed, there would be a fatal contradiction between observations and the predictions made by the big bang theory (the protest web site has now been discontinued but a copy of the protest can be found on the Internet).
3. Red shift not being an indicator of speed of recession or distance from the earth. Because this finding stands against the big bang theory this finding is ignored by mainstream science.
4. Black holes.
In one of the replies to my post the simple to understand explanation of the falsity of the theory of Special Relativity (which theory preceded the theory of General Relativity) was ignored and a defence made of the theory of General Relativity:
General Relativity is used in real-life applications every day. Your GPS would not work without taking it into account.
This is saying that General Relativity must be true because scientists are telling us that practical science says that it is true. This has similarity to someone saying that eternal punishment must be true because pastors are telling us that the bible says that it is true.
In the first case, the easy to understand refutation of the theory of Special Relativity is ignored and no effort, or no apparent effort, is made to consider the refutation. In the second case the easy to understand (if God gives the understanding) refutation of the Scriptures is ignored, and no effort is made to consider the refutation.
The bible (correctly translated) does not say that eternal punishment is true, even if pastors claim that it does, and practical science does not say that Relativity is true, even if scientists claim that it does.
The fact that radio waves travel faster east to west than from west to east has nothing to do with the theory of Relativity, but is to do with the Sagnac effect, which effect can be explained without any Relativity input whatsoever (although some may force-fit Relativity into the explanation). The Sagnac effect is well understood and is used to detect rotation. I do understand why radio waves travel faster east to west than from west to east and I do not understand Relativity. I question whether there exists anyone at all who truly understands (the doctrine of) Relativity.
Mainstream philosophical based science may claim what it wants to claim, but a real life engineer working on a practical level does not need to take Relativity into account when writing a computer software program to co-ordinate with GPS satellites. Google "Ron Hatch" in association with "GPS" and "relativity".
Perhaps someone would like to bring up the Hefele-Keating "experiment" as proof of Relativity:
The original test results were not published by Hafele & Keating, in their famous 1972 paper; they published figures that were radically different from the actual test results which are here published for the first time. An analysis of the real data shows that no credence can be given to the conclusions of Hafele & Keating.
- Alphonsus Gabriel Kelly, Hafele & Keating Tests: Did They Prove Anything?, 2000 (this quote can be viewed on the Internet (Google Books))
In regard to the eclipse photographs of 1919 (touted as proof of General Relativity), Stephen Hawking in his book A Brief History of Time, admits: "later examination of the photographs taken on that expedition showed the errors were as great as the effect they were trying to measure. Their measurement had been sheer luck, or a case of knowing the result they wanted to get, not an uncommon occurrence in science."
Page 32 – Bantam Books April 1988 (downloaded from the Internet)
Page 20 – updated version downloaded from the Internet.
Remember also, as in the Sagnac effect, that a Relativistic explanation for something does not prove Relativity true. If a then b. b is found to be true. This does not prove a to be true, because b could be caused by c.
It is very likely that Relativity was invented or unveiled in an attempt to circumvent the findings of the Michelson-Morley experiment (and possibly other experiments), which had a result much lower than expected, but still a result, and which result was claimed as a null.
Oatmeal
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Thanks Oatmeal for the reference to Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887. I found a book on that research in 1995 and was able to learn enough to realize how biased both private and Government funding can be. I was at the time working at the Argonne National Laboratory in Illinois and had the good fortune to have access to their expansive library of facts and fiction.
The Logical flaws of Einstein's Relativity by Leonard Parish 1977
One of my favorite phrases is that we know Relativity is true because science would not operate without it being true.
Also, the professors in the Physics Department taught their graduate students that they needed to have a working grasp of politics as their source of funding if they expected to remain in that field of endeavor.
Just one persons experience with "research"
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I have to tell you I have not read any of this. But IMO "Why did God take so long to create everything?" Because that's how long it took according to the laws God created.
Hundreds of years ago some famous astronomer calculated the distance from the earth to Jupiter but dismissed his calculation because he could not believe God would waste so much space between the two planets.
Fun video: http://youtu.be/4Z9rM8ChTjY (http://youtu.be/4Z9rM8ChTjY)
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Dear Friend Dennis,
I like your hypothesis, but I really wonder whether God has to publish a set of laws to obey before God can begin creating.
With the level of wisdom and power that we attribute to God why couldn't God just apply God's intuition. For example why could not God just establish the laws while God was creating instead of prior to creating the earth and the rest of the Universe.
God is not a man that he should test a theory before creating to see if the materials God "found" in the universe could be manipulated to the desired end.
The laws of God including natural laws, are in place for the benefit of man rather than for God's benefit or need.
Just wondering whether we limit God's "POW" factor. Can't God just will it to be and there it is?
I don't think God is limited by the speed of light. Most likely God limited photon velocity for our benefit
I agree that God is outside of time, but IF God's angels have to travel in the Universe why cannot they just will themselves to be a trillion parsec away and be there instantly; at the speed of thought?
That's what my wife does. She thinks of a task for me to perform and expects it to happen. ;D
Any who, that's what I might do if I could. (smile)
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Just wondering whether we limit God's "POW" factor. Can't God just will it to be and there it is?
I don't think God is limited by the speed of light. Most likely God limited photon velocity for our benefit
I agree that God is outside of time, but IF God's angels have to travel in the Universe why cannot they just will themselves to be a trillion parsec away and be there instantly; at the speed of thought?
Bob, you said "I agree that God is outside of time," that's just it, God is not limited to any physical aspect of this creation. He is not trapped within the slow development/evolution of this creation through a process over time, no He is omnipresent.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
The "POW" factor is a reality to Him... what do you think the big bang was? This universe is what He has created for us, with all it's 'laws' which are consistent... gravity always pulls things in, no need to worry that it might stop working that way. Science has helped determine some of these things for us, or at least given us things to consider.
God is certainly not limited, it's just from our finite perspective that things may seem limited, certainly not from His perspective.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dear Friend Kat,
Very much appreciate your reply.
However, have to disagree slightly.
The "big bang theory" is just that, a theory that has recently come into disrepute due to further examination over time. From one perspective it states that God lit the fuse and stood back and let the concentrated energy/matter expand to fill the previously created infinite space.
There is NO observational evidence that it MUST be true. There is only interesting theories that change every generation and never seem to achieve full success.
So my point then would be that when expounding scripture it is best not to use science theories in our explanation as if they were proven facts & inspired of God as our work in scripture truly is.
Scientist postulate ideas out of an honest curiosity about how things work and that is fine, but after they work on proving a theory for a few years they can get hung up on their favorite paper that got them their doctorate and accompanying fame.
Without credentials in the science publications they don't achieve tenure and get promoted to Department Chair with the increase in salary or hundreds of new students that support the research grants necessary for professional success such as their own efforts to find some new way of viewing the mysterious Universe.
Professional researchers are not much different than professional churchmen in that regard. It is all about looking good and attracting donors. So if we common folks cannot verify that their theories meet the test of demonstrability then we should handle them with care and reasonable doubt.
Sorry to be so long winded. 8)
Thanks for considering my view point. Indiana Bob
= = =
"The "POW" factor is a reality to Him... what do you think the big bang was? This universe is what He has created for us, with all it's 'laws' which are consistent... gravity always pulls things in, no need to worry that it might stop working that way. Science has helped determine some of these things for us, or at least given us things to consider.
God is certainly not limited, it's just from our finite perspective that things may seem limited, certainly not from His perspective.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
[/quote]
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Bob,
You asked "Can't God just will it to be and there it is?"
The way I see it the answer is yes, of course.
Jesus showed this to the crowds, and especially to his disciples many, many times.
Matthew 21:18-22 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If you have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if you shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Jesus no doubt taught a great lesson to the disciples about faith using that fig tree. The disciples actually saw, and heard Jesus give the command unto the fig tree, and saw it wither.
If someone else came along and noticed the withered tree, their conclusion may be, it died from lack of water, fertilizer, or from disease, over a longer period of time.
When the fact is Jesus himself caused it to die swiftly.
If Jesus would have removed the mountain as he said could be done, how would that have been seen by the disciples, and anyone else that didn't know what was actually happening?
Mountain is blown apart like it was a volcano?
Mountain is destroyed by a giant earthquake?
Mountain rises out of the sea, and plunges back in, and goes out of sight? Or some other way.
How old is God's physical creation that we see today? 6,7,8,10 thousand years? 2,3,4, or more billions of years? I don't know.
All I know is, GOD the FATHER created it through THE WORD, The LORD, and SAVOIR JESUS CHRIST.
Anyway, there is much to think about, and obviously more to learn.
Joel
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Dear Friend Dennis,
I like your hypothesis, but I really wonder whether God has to publish a set of laws to obey before God can begin creating.
With the level of wisdom and power that we attribute to God why couldn't God just apply God's intuition. For example why could not God just establish the laws while God was creating instead of prior to creating the earth and the rest of the Universe.
God is not a man that he should test a theory before creating to see if the materials God "found" in the universe could be manipulated to the desired end.
The laws of God including natural laws, are in place for the benefit of man rather than for God's benefit or need.
Just wondering whether we limit God's "POW" factor. Can't God just will it to be and there it is?
I don't think God is limited by the speed of light. Most likely God limited photon velocity for our benefit
I agree that God is outside of time, but IF God's angels have to travel in the Universe why cannot they just will themselves to be a trillion parsec away and be there instantly; at the speed of thought?
That's what my wife does. She thinks of a task for me to perform and expects it to happen. ;D
Any who, that's what I might do if I could. (smile)
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
If God used other methods then that would make God a lair.
Example: If God supernaturally placed dinosaur bones in the Grand Canyon then that would make God a liar because dinosaur bones do not belong in the Grand Canyon. That would be trickery / lying.
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I also suggest you watch http://youtu.be/2PNgXMHGS2U (http://youtu.be/2PNgXMHGS2U)
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Hi Dennis,
I listened to Ray's recording and I think I get your point.
Wisdom is the principle thing and God got or birthed wisdom before he built the worlds.
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This then took preparation. It means that God had a plan and followed it. Thanks for that.
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My previous comments should have said that God didn't NEED to take billions of years to see His plan and His work come to fruition; once the work began. So my question then would be why do scientist believe, in their opinion, that God needed that much time?
You have said earlier that God's doesn't lie so then what we see in the Universe or on earth must be correct or a valid illustration of how God did it.
But then this very forum is all about millions of leading churchmen seeing and not perceiving the true facts, because God has let Satan blind them. Could that not also apply to scientist??
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I don't know of course how God relates to time in God's own existence. I just do not see any scientific evidence that God's birthed wisdom and God's subsequent perfect plan took billions of years to come into existence. Could be, but the so called evidence of research scientist (astrophysicist) is questionable and should not in my view be treated as fact the way we treat scripture as fact. e.g. the fact that we do not yet know how large the Universe is should keep us from assuming facts not in evidence. e.g (the red shift question)
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2. (subject to correction) I also don't see your point in the story about dinosaurs in the Grand Canyon. I don't say or believe that it was necessary for God to miraculously place dinosaur bones in the grand canyon. Did someone else state that?
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Also why do you say that dinosaur bones DO NOT belong in the Grand canyon?
I have not previously heard that on the forum, but maybe I missed it.
And also, if you care to comment, why are we using dinosaur bones to estimate the age of the earth? I've heard several hypotheses, but not sure how the forum treats that subject.
I really liked your comment from the earlier letter about small miracles
such as God putting a thought in our mind that changed our way of thinking or perceiving what was important. I guess I always assumed that God had a direct connection with the mind of every human and could just prompt us with interest and curiosity when the time was right. ;D
Kindly offered and subject to correction.
Thank you for your patience, Indiana Bob
Dear Friend Dennis,
I like your hypothesis, but I really wonder whether God has to publish a set of laws to obey before God can begin creating.
With the level of wisdom and power that we attribute to God why couldn't God just apply God's intuition. For example why could not God just establish the laws while God was creating instead of prior to creating the earth and the rest of the Universe.
God is not a man that he should test a theory before creating to see if the materials God "found" in the universe could be manipulated to the desired end.
The laws of God including natural laws, are in place for the benefit of man rather than for God's benefit or need.
Just wondering whether we limit God's "POW" factor. Can't God just will it to be and there it is?
I don't think God is limited by the speed of light. Most likely God limited photon velocity for our benefit
I agree that God is outside of time, but IF God's angels have to travel in the Universe why cannot they just will themselves to be a trillion parsec away and be there instantly; at the speed of thought?
That's what my wife does. She thinks of a task for me to perform and expects it to happen. ;D
Any who, that's what I might do if I could. (smile)
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
If God used other methods then that would make God a lair.
Example: If God supernaturally placed dinosaur bones in the Grand Canyon then that would make God a liar because dinosaur bones do not belong in the Grand Canyon. That would be trickery / lying.
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Well Bob, I guess it goes with everything, God has to grant us the understanding of any of the things that we learn.... that has been the case all along. When you think about back through history as far as we can see, there knowledge of even this very earth was filled with conjecture and much of it wrong. So what happened to change what we understand? God has a plan and He had determined from the beginning when it was time for technology. Now not only do we have microscopes that can look into the tiny details of a cell, but also telescopes that search into the far reaches of outer space.
That has made a big difference, now it's not just conjecture, but study of real things as they are happening and seeing things we didn't know about before. Now we only have a very narrow view of these things, and a person is limited on how much they can learn, by the actual length of their life. It's a slow process of gathering information, but this is information of actual real things or events that is being gathered and built on from one generation to the next. Over time this information has began to produce results. Now with the internet and information is shared pretty much instantly, this makes it possible to share and learn even more. That makes me think of what God said about those people building the tower of Babel...
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
We no longer believe the earth is flat, that's something that was learned... and those telescopes are picking up real images of other planets. Having so many planets to view and what does take a very long time to unfold as they develop, but now with telescopes they can actual evaluate to different stages in different planets and learn how they develop through the stages that can take millions of years.
Sure there is many problems with the way things are done in this world, corruption is everywhere, so no we cannot just latch onto everything as true that we hear. But if we become so jaded that we cannot believe anything at, well isn't that like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. Scientist require big money to operate, that's true, but if it is so corrupted that it disrupts the real honest work of science to the degree that it is not productive at all and there is no truth in it, won't that defeat the purpose of it? We have to believe that some of the information is true and that is bared out over time and observation and lots of trial and error.
I really think we are living in unprecedented times, growth of knowledge in every direction is incredible.
Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I just assume you have watched all of Ray's videos Bob. He has an entire series about the age of the earth, etc. which includes a short talk about a Christian museum that falsely shows dinosaur bones embedded in the Grand Canyon walls.
If there is strong scientific proof that the earth is about 5 billion years old then I don't have a problem with it. If that's how long it took to get to modern man, no problem. And the bible certainly does not contradict the earth being billions of years old.
And I do not believe scientist go out of their way to lie. They are more honest than most Christian leaders.
Ray did not say it took God billions of years to birth the wisdom it took to create the universe. We don't know how long it took. We don't even know if time existed when God planned the universe.
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
God is not a man. The passing of time for Him is not the same as it is for us.
Just because we cannot see or understand things does not prove anything. All it proves is we don't know.
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And I do not believe scientist go out of their way to lie. They are more honest than most Christian leaders.
This statement is true unless they are supported through government grants of course. :(
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So very true, Rick. Scientists do lie. Many have been caught in the act of course. Many more work their "craft" on a very self-serving agenda, and often incorporate their preferred biases into their 'deductions'. I've seen it with my own eyes a-plenty.
But Kat's points are still valid...God did give his creatures senses and a mind to interpret the data they sense. Knowledge has indeed increased, a thousand-fold, since Daniel's time; his prediction is true. But the priests of knowledge--the 'scientists'--do lord it over the rest of humanity. Like the lawyers of Jesus' time, they "have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.".
By that I mean, just as the christian leaders of today do not merely present their followers with the raw data and allow them to interpret it for themselves (anathema!) , they must insist on also interpreting it for us.
Don't think so? Ask one of them to define a "fact".
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The "big bang theory" is just that, a theory that has recently come into disrepute due to further examination over time. From one perspective it states that God lit the fuse and stood back and let the concentrated energy/matter expand to fill the previously created infinite space.
Disrepute? Bad choice of words, Bob. To find argument in science is as easy as finding sand on beaches. That's what science is all about.
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Dear Friend Kat,
Very much appreciate your reply.
However, have to disagree slightly.
The "big bang theory" is just that, a theory...There is NO observational evidence that it MUST be true. There is only interesting theories that change every generation and never seem to achieve full success.
True enough. And I'm glad that it is. "Full success" is a futile endeavor when considering the vastness of both the large and the small.
So my point then would be that when expounding scripture it is best not to use science theories in our explanation as if they were proven facts & inspired of God as our work in scripture truly is.
I agree. Tell that also to the "scientists" Ray mentioned in the Nashville '08 conference. I'd only reiterate what I tried to communicate in this long dormant thread before it was resurrected: The bottom line of what Ray shared was that "scientific truth" does not conflict with "scriptural truth". IMO, only theology does that, and the assumptions it brings to both scripture and science.
However, I do think it's OK to use current scientific understanding to "illustrate" a Truth of God. I also think its OK to consider scientific findings in understanding a Truth of God. God Himself seems to me to be encouraging us to do that very thing.
Scientist postulate ideas out of an honest curiosity about how things work and that is fine, but after they work on proving a theory for a few years they can get hung up on their favorite paper that got them their doctorate and accompanying fame.
Without credentials in the science publications they don't achieve tenure and get promoted to Department Chair with the increase in salary or hundreds of new students that support the research grants necessary for professional success such as their own efforts to find some new way of viewing the mysterious Universe.
And then sometimes there simply IS no 'new way', unless you want to recant your disappointment that "full success" is never reached. Surely you aren't suggesting that every scientific dispute requires 'us' to start from scratch.
Professional researchers are not much different than professional churchmen in that regard. It is all about looking good and attracting donors. So if we common folks cannot verify that their theories meet the test of demonstrability then we should handle them with care and reasonable doubt.
Perhaps we should. But it isn't possible to put the universe in a controlled study, nor is it possible to "demonstrate" the creation of the Universe...not in any 'theory' that exists. I certainly can't demonstrate the creation of a universe. I'd actually have to create a universe to do it.
But while I'm being "reasonably doubtful" about credentialed scientists who have mastered the foundational knowledge in their fields, I am double-chocolate-dipped doubtful about others wading into arguments by building and knocking down straw-men and making claims based on their own "understanding" and "wisdom". But perhaps I have a different way of looking at passages that disdain the "wisdom of men", and just what kind of man makes up those 'men'.
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I don't see how genuine scientist have anything to gain by lying about the age of the universe. Most now agree that the universe is about 14 billion years old.
From: http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/Twins (http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/Twins)
In Einstein's special theory of relativity, there is no such thing as "time" in the singular. Time passes differently for different observers, depending on the observers' motion. The prime example is that of the two hypothetical twins: One of them stays at home, on Earth. The other journeys into space in an ultra-fast rocket, nearly as fast as the speed of light, before returning home:
Afterwards, when the twins are reunited on Earth, the travelling twin is markedly younger, compared to her stay-at-home sibling. The exact age difference depends on the details of the journey. For example, it could be that, aboard the space-ship, two years of flight-time have passed - on-board clocks and calendars show that two years have elapsed, and both spaceship and travelling twin have aged by exactly that amount of time. On Earth, however, a whopping 30 years have passed between the spaceship's departure and its return. Just like all other humans on the planet, the twin on Earth has aged by 30 years during that time.
Time is not the same for God as it is for man.