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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on March 06, 2014, 12:29:58 AM
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I’ve been meditating on six words Ray wrote in his papers, those six words hit me like a ton of bricks. They are so simple yet most profound.
One can find in some of Rays writings, a question that ray would ask, which is ( but do they believe the scriptures ? )
I never put myself in the camp of ( they ) but while meditating I did, I had to ask myself, if I believe the scriptures. As I was pondering that question, I realized ( for me ) that’s the narrow gate Jesus was speaking of.
One cannot enter in unbelief and one cannot believe unless God gives the faith to believe. It really is of God. I believe the message of the bible, I trust God, I trust He will do what He said He will do. I believe the good news.
As much as I would like to flee this life, it’s necessary, I long for all things to be new and evil reigns no more.. How sweet the sound. :)
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I long for all things to be new and evil reigns no more.. How sweet the sound. :)
that's what i'm talkin 'bout, willis!!! ;D
and until then we can remember also that our Lord loves us so, so much rick. He died so that the Spirit of His/our Father could come and live in us, within our hearts graced by God. that's the only way we will ever receive His peace. True Peace.
the truth of the matter is that when Christ does return, even if it's tonight, He will find very little faith in Him or His God and Father.
so hold onto the believing you have and exercise the faith He gave you every minute of the day. our God is faithFULL.
claudia
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Hi Rick,
It is also the application of the life one has to live when a believer. One has to find that narrow gate and walk the narrow path, you cannot do that if you still:
Live as you’ve been living before, you have to change or see the change taking place in you. You should be giving up the lusts of life in not taking part of this world i.e. taking active part in its politics, doing everything you can to become rich, abstain from anything the apostles remind us of in their epistles. In this modern world we should make an effort to abstain from all the entertainment on offer by not
watching movies with violence and sex, zombies and ghosts, magic and spirits and movies with serial killers – anything that is not wholesome for the soul or good to the eyes.
We have been given the gift of faith by the grace of our God Yahweh (I love using His name now), we are believers and have come to understand the Scriptures so much better through his servant Ray....
It is true that it is a long process, but we still have to make these choices to really want to walk that path, our Lord Jesus Christ will assist us if we truly want to win this race… then we will be able to put on that white garment to cover our nakedness in spiritual achievements. It's a long and hard battle we face everyday!
Just my two cents,
Jingle
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The "gate" is a Person. The "way" is a Person. "No man comes to the Father except by ME." There is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. The LORD Jesus Christ, HIS FAITH (given to us), and the Baptism into His Death. There's no contradiction in Scripture, only different ways of saying the same thing.
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Exactly Dave, we should follow Christ by living a wholesome and godly life, dying daily to the lusts of the world.
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Exactly Dave, we should follow Christ by living a wholesome and godly life, dying daily to the lusts of the world.
Don't mean to offened you, but that sounds like a jingle from Christendom. :)
It is true that it is a long process, but we still have to make these choices to really want to walk that path, our Lord Jesus Christ will assist us if we truly want to win this race… then we will be able to put on that white garment to cover our nakedness in spiritual achievements. It's a long and hard battle we face everyday!
Oh really, and do we really have the free will to make all those choices you outlined in your previous post?
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Oh really, and do we really have the free will to make all those choices you outlined in your previous post?
it is a fact that we do NOT have free will, BUT, we do have a brain with which we make choices all day long. we CAN make the choice to go to the Word and make a conscious decision to follow after Christ, the Narrow Path. of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
our Father gave us the most precious gift He could through Jesus Christ our Saviour. he gave us a part of Himself, gracing our hearts with His faith. if we sit and do not walk in that faith, the very faith of Christ, hiding it within our hearts only, afraid to act on it because one might think we are doing it of our own efforts, then our faith is hidden as a light hidden under a cover. like the man who took the money given to him and went and buried it in the ground waiting to use it for a rainy day. the faith of Christ we hold within our hearts is mighty and powerful, and the only tool, besides His Word that we have to break the chains of this nasty world and all it throws at us. AND, both faith and the Word of God were given to us to use and apply, not just to hide it away in our hearts.
claudia
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Amen Claudia.
Blessings.
Jingle
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Let Loretta be. She is correct.
We don't have free will. Therefore, the choices we make are not free either. They all go back to God. Read chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Job.
Judas didn't want to betray Jesus. He was compelled to by forces greater than he.
Peter did not want to deny Jesus. He was compelled to by forces greater than he.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9
Grace is Divine favor from above. Faith doesn't save us (it's through faith) and of course works don't save us. Neither do faith and works together save us. Grace saves us. All comes from God.
Give all the glory to God. Humankind do not know their right hand from their left without the grace of God.
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Php 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
It is God who drags us the Jesus Christ to start with and God does not just assist us, if we endure to the end, it's only because God does finish it in us. Yes it is done through us, we certainly do participate, God puts in us to will and to do and then we do strive and obey, but it is all of God.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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J.F.K. is right, unless we are dragged to God we run. God gives us faith, God is the only one who can bring about change.
God is the potter, is the pot free to change its outcome and say I will be one of the elect or I will be not? Its God who chooses and He chooses with a free will .God does it all in us, He gives us the desire to follow, the change can only come about when God ‘s timetable says it shall be.
God knows the number of hairs on my head, I have not a clue how many hairs are on my head, that to me is a God who not only directs but pays attention to every little detailed of my life.
What ever Gods will is for my life must also included all His intentions for my life. All is of God, know matter how I look at it.
If one is of the elect status, its guaranteed for that one, or if one is not of the elect statues then its guaranteed they won’t be.
God is calling Himself out a people here and now, all others will be called at a later time as God is no respecters of persons as its God’s will that all be saved . God’s will, will be done.
God is the gate, He’s the good Shepard, I must live out what He’s given me to live out before the foundations of the earth.
What choice have I...............that wasn’t predetermined ?
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...There is ONE LORD...
I know what I've had to go through, and no self-respecting christian would wish it on anybody.
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Oh really, and do we really have the free will to make all those choices you outlined in your previous post?
it is a fact that we do NOT have free will, BUT, we do have a brain with which we make choices all day long. we CAN make the choice to go to the Word and make a conscious decision to follow after Christ, the Narrow Path. of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
our Father gave us the most precious gift He could through Jesus Christ our Saviour. he gave us a part of Himself, gracing our hearts with His faith. if we sit and do not walk in that faith, the very faith of Christ, hiding it within our hearts only, afraid to act on it because one might think we are doing it of our own efforts, then our faith is hidden as a light hidden under a cover. like the man who took the money given to him and went and buried it in the ground waiting to use it for a rainy day. the faith of Christ we hold within our hearts is mighty and powerful, and the only tool, besides His Word that we have to break the chains of this nasty world and all it throws at us. AND, both faith and the Word of God were given to us to use and apply, not just to hide it away in our hearts.
claudia
Wow claudia, so very profound. Exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you for sharing dear sister. You have blessed me mightily.
Love,
Alex
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Please submit a scripture reference that supports "of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make."
I'm curious. Especially because the statement declares that WE KNOW. If we have knowledge of something, there must be of necessity a source from where that knowledge originates.
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Please submit a scripture reference that supports "of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make."
I'm curious. Especially because the statement declares that WE KNOW. If we have knowledge of something, there must be of necessity a source from where that knowledge originates.
...For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. Isa 46:9
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure.' Isa 46:10
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Gal 5
16 And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;
17 for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will -- these ye may not do;
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
22 And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law;
24 and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
25 if we may live in the Spirit, in the Spirit also we may walk;
26 let us not become vain-glorious -- one another provoking, one another envying!
Yes, we are for a fact drawn by God, through His grace and it is a fact that if we are led by the Spirit, we should be producing fruits mentioned in verse 22
it is a hard battle we fight every day by dying to the flesh, we must make this effort, as Ray somewhere said, we make the choices, we are responsible for the choices we make.... we are put in situations were we have to make choices one way or the other, we make them. God is responsible for His creation, but we as individuals are responsible for our choices.
God's will will always be done and that is axiomatic - whether now or later, everything is going to His plan as Ray also reminded us.
All of God!
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Declaring the end from the beginning,
I don't think the world understands that the word from is not being used in a comparative sense.
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Here are a few emails that I think can be helpful in this discussion.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html ---
Everyone has the ability to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
God foresaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE! "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html ---
ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly. God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart. And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action. Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ------------------
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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It's good to read Ray's words again.
The subject of no free will, along with the related subject of the salvation of all, are two matters that Ray has nailed down cold.
Also, his gift of teaching a complex subject in simple language to others.
I already knew much of what Ray taught. But the truth about no free will took me completely by surprise. All my life, I thought I made my own decisions. I controlled my inner me.
God smacked me in the head with the truth of no free will.
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but we as individuals are responsible for our choices.
Its my understanding, we are not responsible for our choices, only accountable. No one can go against Gods intentions and so God is responsible.
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of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
jfk, perhaps you missed this portion of my post. ::)
duh! 8)
claudia
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geewilwikers people!
theophilus, the statement i made was one ray used many, many times. it is the essence of another statement "there is NO CHOICE we make that is FREE OF GOD'S CAUSING it to come about." that truth is summarized all throughout the Scriptures.
claudia
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of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
jfk, perhaps you missed this portion of my post. ::)
duh! 8)
claudia
Are you saying I'm thick headed? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
What a thing to say to a harmless, lovable, little fuzzball. :(
But, I'll get over it. :-*
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you are priceless in the eyes of God, jfk. :)
claudia
p.s. you always get over it. :)
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of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics. If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.
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who cares what the heretics say or worry about??!! i mean, really. is this all coming down now to a question of being careful not to step on toes of heretics? if ray had thought this way, this website would have never been started...
claudia
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Here are a couple of emails from Ray that might be helpful, I too am trying to get the nuances of this down.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3815.0 -------
Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
Lee
Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins. It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do, but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli? But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray
Brother Smith,
Thanks for responding to my e-mail a day or two ago. And so soon too! I appreciate it.
I realize what you say in that we must be careful how we use words and phrases...and that where the Bible says nowhere that God "preordained" such sins.
Of course, the Bible does not put it that way, that "God preordains sins". God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. This we know for sure. But I guess that what I am saying is that when it comes to the sins of mankind, why do we always come short in attributing these also to God, who He Himself has planned, and executed, and is responsible for all the actions of men. "Oh no, He doesn't go that far"! Why not? Certain men raping little girls is not of God? Why not? I know that this sounds horrible to say but again, let me repeat that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. His thoughts are not as our thoughts and His ways are not as our ways.
A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground without the Father. The very hairs on the heads of every creature are all numbered by God. Are not "ALL things of God"? Doesn't He "work ALL things after the counsel of His OWN will"? Just how much of "ALL things are of God" are all? Should we begin to say, "all things are of God, EXCEPT when it comes to the sins of His clay pots"? When it comes to this, God had nothing to do with it; God didn't plan it; God didn't execute it; God didn't "pre-ordain" it. Is that what we should say? All things are of God except.................? God planned for a certain man to be born at a certain time; He planned for another man and woman to be born at a certain time; He planned and ordained and arranged for where a certain man would live; He planned and arranged for another man and woman to meet and to get married and where they would live; He planned and ordained t hat this man and woman live in this neighborhood and have a daughter to be born; He planned for this other man to live next door to this man and woman; over the years, He planned for this daughter to grow and mature; one day, the man next door attacks and rapes this little girl, and then we say, "God had nothing to do with it; God does not preordain the sinful actions of his clay pots". I don't understand. Perhaps, we are not meant to understand. Again I say that God does NOT sin and God is NOT evil. But either ALL THINGS ARE OF GOD or they are not!
Lee
Dear Lee:
I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding.
When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows
that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some
things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the
parent actually commit the sin? Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should
the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as
you would like it to be.
"I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your
simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right? If God creates
evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your
reasoning? If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD
HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right? If God planned it: He did it.
Right? Wrong.
You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am
not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am
not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape. You can't conclude that:
[1] God made humanity. [2] Humanity all sins. [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN!
The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie." Yet we have several Scriptures
that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR
when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"
Let me help you with the answer: Why is it wrong for one man to kill another
man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons: [1] Intent of heart.
God kills out of righteousness. [2] God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.
[3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils,
and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
Hope the helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
Dear Sean and Forum:
Regarding your statement: "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND." The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie" and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING? Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it. Hope you will all be patient.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 -------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics. If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.
No, I don't think that's the way to "better say" it. That word "want" expresses a desire, and we have scripture that says what God's desires are, and many also which say what He does NOT desire/want.
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I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
Ohhhh, I am so getting it! :)
Thanks for sharing these emails, Kat.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9
Grace is Divine favor from above. Faith doesn't save us (it's through faith) and of course works don't save us. Neither do faith and works together save us. Grace saves us. All comes from God.
Give all the glory to God. Humankind do not know their right hand from their left without the grace of God.
More about Grace as Ray expounds it beautifully in his teaching here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB1upDX-NSk
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Nice thread, very nice indeed. Tks everyone, especially those who are dedicatedly studying the Word and sharing here. For some of us this is the only serious study going on at this moment in our lives. :-[
This is true spiritual church.
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Apologies for the slip, my bad :-[ we are held accountable for our actions. ;D
Jingle
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who cares what the heretics say or worry about??!! i mean, really. is this all coming down now to a question of being careful not to step on toes of heretics? if ray had thought this way, this website would have never been started...
claudia
I think it makes a big difference. It's the difference between believing God has everything planned out to the minute detail vs. a reactionary God who is constantly fixing what we do with our free will because he "knew" we would do it.
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of course we know that any choice we make is the choice our Creator knew we would make.
I think this statement gives too much fuel for the fire of the heretics. If we make our choices based on a cause, maybe it would be better said that any choice we make is the choice our Creator wanted us to make.
No, I don't think that's the way to "better say" it. That word "want" expresses a desire, and we have scripture that says what God's desires are, and many also which say what He does NOT desire/want.
Dave, I don't disagree with what you are saying, so maybe choosing want is not the correct word. But knew doesn't do it for me either.
Reference http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1595.msg13417.html#msg13417
First I would like to say that I have found your web site to be extremely valuable. It has answered many questions that have been unanswered for many years. I do have one question for you. It is believed that God does not change his mind, correct? How do you explain Isaiah 38??? In verse one, I am quoting from the Amplified Bible, ...thus says the Lord, set you house in order, for you shall die and not live. Then in verse 3, Hezekiah prayed and cried. Then in verse 5, ...Lord said, I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your life fifteen years. Did Hezekiah's prayer and tears influenced God to change his mind? I think so, why would it read that God heard Hezekiah's prayer and tears if it was not important in prolonging Hezekiah's life? First, God said, you shall die and not live. Then God said, I have heard your prayer, and seen your tears, so I will add 15 years to your life. It sounds to me that God changed his mind. Don't you agree? What do you think? Am I missing something? Is it a mistranslation? I know that you receive so many emails, so I will be surprised if you take the time to answer mind; but I hope so. Maybe, if I pray and cry, the Lord will grant me my prayer for you to answer (correctly) this email. Gee, I wish it was that easy: just pray and cry and God will answer prayer.
Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts on this subject.
Joe V.
No, Joe, I do not agree with you that God "changed His mind." God never ever CHANGES his mind. First, God NEVER CHANGES His mind about anything. He plainly tells us so in Mal. 3:6. And in Num. 23:19 we are told that God is NOT A MAN that He should lie or that he should repent [change HIs mind].
God did not lie when he said that Hezekiah would die--he did die. And furthermore he would have died 15 years SOONER IF something else didn't take place. And so God saw to it that something else did take place. Hezekiah's prayer was OF GOD, seeing that "ALL IS OF GOD." No one can say a prayer unless and until God first preordains that that person will say a prayer. Read my latest post on "PRAYING BY GOD'S RULES" and also my 120 page seres on "The Myth of Free Will Expose," which explain this whole subject in great detail using dozens and dozens and dozens of Scriptures to back it up.
God be with you,
Ray
This comes to mind when I think of God knowing something. Yes, God knew that Hezekiah's life would be extended, but He knew it before Hezekiah was ever born. To say God knew something is true, but the fact is the reason he knew it is because that is the way it was supposed to be period.
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God has a very detailed mind, intelligence, and control over all things.
There is that Scripture where it says birds do not die without the Father's permission.
Another Scripture says the hairs of our head are all numbered.
Another Scripture says God names all the stars (which our science says there are hundreds of billions of them).
If God has so much control of those things mentioned above, how much more control and knowledge does He have over all mankind, which is His crowning achievement of creation in that He is creating beings in His own image, after His own kind, who He calls His kin, His sons and daughters, His family.
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^This
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No worries, Abednego. Actually, I think it does little good in the long run to talk in generalities. I can't hold such big thoughts in my head 24/7.
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Ray asked the question, "but do they believe the scriptures?" And he answers that question many times by saying, "they despise the Word of God."
He shows time after time how they try to make the scriptures null and void by all their beliefs in the various dogmas, and creeds contrived by man.
Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth.
Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10-Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
1 Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
Joel