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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Colin on September 28, 2015, 11:31:00 PM
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Dear All
While reading through the part 4 of the LOF series, I unexpectedly came to realise that I had not fully grasped what was staring me in the face. Isn’t this so true of much that we have read, including the scriptures, where our eyes simply have not “seen” what has been hidden in full view?
It reminds me of
2Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
:16 Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Ray wrote (towards the end of part 4 LOF)
This man [the prodigal son] SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn’t this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).
There had been a degree of uncertainty for me in understanding this verse, because I was still affected by the notion taught by former teachers in WWCG, and which is also an essential part of many professing Christian churches…..that men are all going to physically die because, according to them, that “sentence” had been passed on ever since Adam’s “mistake”.
Many times we have heard it pronounced by the worldly churches that Adam had been “created perfect” and remained so UNTIL……. There have even been speculations that Adam and Eve might have lived endlessly (physically?) except for the dreadful decision they made. Our thanks go to God for revealing to Ray, who went on to provide us with the truth. Yet it can still remain “clouded” until God opens our eyes according to His timetable.
I continued reading what Ray had written and came to:-
May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH!
When I saw that, it brought about a better understanding for me of Hebrews 9:27. I was then able to comprehend that it means "it is appointed, or deliberately intended by God that ALL men are, at some stage, to die spiritually, followed by a time of JUDGMENT". God knew Adam and Eve would sin….not only knew, but intended that Adam, Eve and all of mankind are, at some stage, to experience spiritual death.
Not just come to an end of physical life.
Some will experience a spiritual death at an earlier time than others. Most will after their resurrection….our turn can be now.
Ray’s conclusion became much clearer for me, once I “saw” the real meaning of what Paul wrote in Romans 6:23…..which is a conclusion of several preceding verses. Studying those preceding verses adds further weight to the spiritual nature of the death being referred to.
And to think I read part 4 of LOF many years ago and did not fully comprehend what was contained therein. The parable of the prodigal son has a deeper significance than I had seen. The prodigal son had been “spiritually dead”…..not just physically hungry and sorry for himself. Colin
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Hi Colin,
I know Ray taught, first the physical then the spiritual, I would think the physical would mean being spiritually death, or we all start off spiritually dead .
I know we are physical being having a spiritual experience if God has called us, only those who endure to the end which would mean to me, until Christ returns or we physically die, would be in the first resurrection.
No one to my understanding is actually saved in this age nor is anyone born again in this aged, this is reserved for the next age for Gods elect only. If we start off spiritually dead then it would stand to reason the first resurrection is going from spiritually dead to spiritually alive.
But again it stands to reason if we start off spiritually dead were we spiritually alive before we spiritually died ?
Or are we born spiritually dead and God quickens our spirit and we become spiritually alive for the first time ?
But Ray did teach us that our spirit is actually dumb, it has no memory, no thought, it’s the power that gives us life. So when we say we are spiritually alive what is it we are referring to ?
God knows the end from the beginning, God also chose the elect from the beginning and those who He has chosen will He cast away ? That would be to contradict He knows the end from the beginning would it not ? Also it would of been a mistake on Gods part if He chose someone to be an elect and they appear not in the first resurrection.
Can someone loose their salvation ? If so, did not God see that in advance ? And if God saw that in advance why would He have chosen that one to be an elect ? Of course, Jesus did say that those who the Father has given Him, no one can snatch them from the Fathers hand not even the one who the Father has given Him because our choice is not free from causality.
If being spiritually alive is another way of saying I have a relationship with Christ then I can comprehend its meaning but if it means something different than that then I have not a clue. :-\
God bless.
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Spiritually dead "in trespasses and sins.". Death passed to all men because all have sinned . Sin entered the world and death by Sin. Sin was in the world before death so we have to actually sin or break fellowship with God before we die spirituallly. Babies are not spiritually dead becUse they haven't ever sinned against God so no we do not start off spiritually dead.we start off with weak flesh and carnally minded which leads to death because we are too weak to resist temptation not having the mind of Christ. Once I was Alive apart from the law. But when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. Romans 7: 9. . So from that it is plain to see that we are not or do not start off spiritually dead. I hope that helped
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I continued reading what Ray had written and came to:-
May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH!
When I saw that, it brought about a better understanding for me of Hebrews 9:27. I was then able to comprehend that it means "it is appointed, or deliberately intended by God that ALL men are, at some stage, to die spiritually, followed by a time of JUDGMENT". God knew Adam and Eve would sin….not only knew, but intended that Adam, Eve and all of mankind are, at some stage, to experience spiritual death.
Not just come to an end of physical life.
Some will experience a spiritual death at an earlier time than others. Most will after their resurrection….our turn can be now.
Ray’s conclusion became much clearer for me, once I “saw” the real meaning of what Paul wrote in Romans 6:23…..which is a conclusion of several preceding verses. Studying those preceding verses adds further weight to the spiritual nature of the death being referred to.
And to think I read part 4 of LOF many years ago and did not fully comprehend what was contained therein. The parable of the prodigal son has a deeper significance than I had seen. The prodigal son had been “spiritually dead”…..not just physically hungry and sorry for himself.
Hi Colin,
Yes the Scripture is such a mystery (intended) and does not reveal many things unless you find the answer through other witnesses of the same truth. There is much talk about "death" in the Scripture, but we have to discern the kind of death it is speaking of, physical or spiritual. Spiritual dead is a state of being in this physical life, as Ray was saying about the prodigal son, he was not physically dead, but he was dead spiritually with a carnal/beastly/sinful nature. It is sin that brings this spiritual death to us all, "For the wages of sin is death..." (Rom 6:23).
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Jas 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
v. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This spiritual death is the state of being of all humanity (until the Holy Spirit is indwelling), and it's what a person's nature is, a carnal sinner. Paul explains it started with the first man and it continues in every person that ever lives. Here is a few places where Ray talks about this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html ----------------------
IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART
ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.
We read in Jer. 17:9:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,
"The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."
God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."
The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm ----------------------
[Ray Replies]
Thank you for your email and comments. And let me parrot your sentiments by saying: "I pray this will not upset YOU" what I have to say in response to your email. While I can certainly appreciate some of the statement you make, nonetheless, the premise of your email is in error.
You state: "What they had [Adam and Eve], I can only dream of having. They knew what good is without evil, good in it's purest form!"
Well, if what you want is what Adam and Eve had BEFORE they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then I have news for you: You can stop dreaming. You REALLY DO ALREADY HAVE what they had!! That's right! Your ALREADY possess what they HAD! I have it too! But I am not as thrilled over this possession as much as you seem to think you would be if only you had it. You do have it, I have it, Hitler had it, Saddam STILL has it, in his jail cell in Iraq. ALL MANKIND HAS IT. It's called "THE CARNAL MIND," and it's not a pretty thing either: "For to be CARNALLY MINDED is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and PEACE.
Adam and Eve did not eat of the forbidden tree and disobey God because they were "spiritually minded" or because, "they knew what good is without knowing evil, good in it's purest form" as you suggest. THEY WERE TOTALLY CARNAL. The were 'NAKED'--This was not just a physical fact, it was a SPIRITUAL REALITY. They were spiritually NAKED just as everyone else who thinks they have sufficient spirituality to live righteously by their own carnal mind:
"Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods [they owned all in the garden; it was ALL FOR THEM] and have need of NOTHING [how could they have need of anything if they already possessed, "good in it's PUREST FORM' as you suggest? But there's was a problem with Adam and Eve just as there is with ALL OF US. We DO NOT possess proper knowledge {without the tree of the knowledge of good and evil}, and therefore we like Laodicea...] ... and KNOW NOT that you are WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and [SPIRITUALLY] NAKED" (Rev. 3:17)!!!
If they already knew good (inside of their very spirit and innermost being), good in it's PUREST FORM, then how could ANYTHING, influence, persuade, cause, or MAKE them manifest the root causes of EVERY SIN ON EARTH? Notice it carefully:
"And when the woman [1] SAW THAT THE TREE WAS GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh], and that it was [2] PLEASANT TO THE EYES [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be [3] DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life], she TOOK [stole, disobeyed, lusted after the flesh, put an idol before God, worshiped her own presumed but false goodness, helped cause her husband to sin, hid themselves, LIED to God about it, tried to pass the buck and blame others for their sin, etc., etc., etc., and a dozen other sins] of the fruit thereof, and did eat..." (Gen. 3:6).
And so, were Adam and Eve REALLY "good without knowing evil?" Did they really have "good in it's PUREST FORM?" Or did Eve having nothing but a spiritually naked and carnal mind that did NOT possess the love of God in any way, shape or form? Let the Scriptures answer. Notice what Eve did:
Lusted with her FLESH, wanting to EAT the forbidden fruit.
Lusted with here EYES, because it seemed so pleasant to her carnal mind.
Was filled with PRIDE, desiring worldly WISDOM.
Now let's compare Eve's sin with what John tells us are the three root CAUSES OF ALL SIN:
"Love not the world, neither the things are are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is NOT IN HIM. For [here's the reason why] ALL that is in the world, [1] the LUST OF THE FLESH, and [2] the LUST OF THE EYES, and [3] the PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world" (I John 2:15-16).
There we have the exact three sins of Eve! And I assure you on the authority of Jesus Christ and the Word of God that these are NOT, 'good in it's purest form.' We must all be CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and then be CLOTHED WITH HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, before we will have even a hint of "good in it's purest form."
There is no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil! That is WHY God put both good AND evil IN THE SAME TREE; IN THE SAME FRUIT.!!
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -------------------------
"For the creature was made subject to vanity [King James Margin: "futility"], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] Who has subjected [Gk: ‘subjects’—aorist tense—subjecting is still going on] the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
In Dante’s inferno, "all hope is gone…," but in God’s realm He subjects the entire creation "…in HOPE,"
God willfully, wantingly, knowingly, purposely, and wisely, created mankind "subject to vanity," subject to failure, but beyond the failure, God also subjects the same in "hope." Once again, contrary to all orthodox doctrine, there is hope for all of God’s carnal-minded, God-hating people on planet Earth. God Himself says so, in the same breath: "because the creature itself [the same creation that God subjects to vanity, futility, failure, and carnal-minded hatred against God] also shall be [ah, did you catch that? ‘shall be’], delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" (Rom. 8:21). Do you believe the Scriptures? Really—what about this one?
And so God, "made the creature subject to vanity"—failure, but later in mankind’s development, the creature "shall be"— [future tense]… shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption." Ah yes, God created them in a condition of "bondage" and "corruption," and therefore not "immortal" as is taught, but rather in "bondage of corruption." But thanks to God, in the resurrection of the dead, ‘…this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality’ (I Cor. 15:54).
Yes, of course, first comes the PHYSICAL (death), and then the SPIRITUAL (life). There it is—the hope of all humanity. Corruption and mortality (the physical first) must put on incorruption and immortality [the afterward spiritual).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1594.0.html ------
Every person (and animal) has a "spirit." There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.
God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.
God be with you,
Ray
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Yes, they were spiritually naked, but they didn't die spiritually until they lusted and partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sinned. That's the way I read it. God said, in the day that you eat, to die shall you be dying. So, they were created spiritually weak and then because of their weakness to lust and sin, they died spiritually.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Romans __:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Psalms 139:8 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol [realm of the dead], behold, You are there. 9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea 10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," 12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. 13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; 16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance [i.e. unformed body]; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
As the new posted video of Ray's says - "No where to escape."
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
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Hi Jeff,
If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
v. 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
v. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
1John 5:11 and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this--the life--is in His Son;
v. 12 he who is having the Son, hath the life; he who is not having the Son of God--the life he hath not. (Young's)
Now this 'life' that comes with the Holy Spirit indwelling is just a earnest that we have in this life, a believer will not be perfected while still in the flesh, not until resurrection. Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,96.0.html ----
Dear Billy:
Unfortunately, the Greek word translated "born" is also the same Greek word translated "begotten." Therefore it is sometimes difficult to know whether a verse means "begotten" or "born." The truth is that all of God's promises to and for us in this life are in "earnest or down payment" of what is to follow. We have God's spirit in earnest only; we have eonian life in earnest only; we have understanding and perception in earnest only. In the resurrection we will be, "like the wind," "LIKE HIM" (I John 3:2).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1309.0.html -----
Is there a difference between "being Saved" and being Born Again?
Vickie
Technically yes, but practically no. Virtually all who are "born again" (Greek is probably "begotten a new" as opposed "to born again". All those begotten a new of God's Holy Spirit are destined for salvation in the First Resurrection. Whereas actual salvation does not occur until the First Resurrection. We must "endure till the end" in order to "be" saved.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------
But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "earnest" or down payment in this life:
"…you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL [at a later date] the redemption of the purchased possession…" (Eph. 1:13b-14).
At the resurrection we will be changed:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: for we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be LIKE HIM, for we shall see Him as He is" (I John 3:2-3).
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html ---
Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
God be with you,
Ray
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If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Hi Kat,
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I’m a living soul as we speak.
The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.
So I’m confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?
Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
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If the Holy Spirit of God is indwelling that gives spiritual life to a believer.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Hi Kat,
Rom 8:11 to me is set for a future date, what my meaning is here is that I have a mortal body, my body has life already, I’m a living soul as we speak.
The Fathers spirit in Christ raised Christ from the grave three days after His crucifixion and this same spirit that was in Christ will raise our mortal bodies too at the resurrection.
So I’m confused to your statement ( gives spiritual life to a believer ) what is your understanding or meaning about ( spiritual life to a believer ) ?
Is your meaning the same as my understanding ? At the resurrection ?
I agree Rick. I believe this speaks to the future. Colossians 2:9 uses the Greek word (sōmatikōs) which means "spiritual body"
Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (sōmatikōs)
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
Hi Jeff,
God’s elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.
What if a man thinks he’s more God centered than self centered ? How would that effect the attitude of his mind ?
John the Baptist said He must increase I must decrease, to me , that means I must become more God centered and the more I become God centered the less I become self centered. The less I become self centered the more my life is hid with Christ. Takes a life time Jeff.
I’m not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.
We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?
For the wages of sin is death and I sinned and I shall die, so what does Christ sacrifice mean to me ? Salvation, spiritual life after the resurrection, right now the only life I have is physical life but also a relationship with Christ in my physical life.
If spirits have spiritual lives what do human beings have?
God bless.
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...we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14)
Kat,
I think this indicates that what we have now is "earnest" which means "a portion of something, given or done in advance, as a pledge of the remainder."
What we have is a promise of God's Spirit - "proof of more to come" that can only mean "as yet unfulfilled"
An inheritance comes at the completion. It's given as a trust. We're "sealed" in that promise [not now; not yet; but later]"
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God’s elect do sin, just not on the level they once had or at least should not. Remember this scripture, as a man thinks so he is.
I’m not proud of my sins but they do keep me humble, Ray said that he did not sin as much but he still did sin just not as much as he once did.
We are alive and we do sin, and we will pay for our sins as much as I can tell, Jesus paid for all the sins of the world correct, so if Jesus died for my sins why must I grow old and die ?
For the wages of sin is death and I sinned
Which is why I don't think we can experience Spiritual life "completeness" until Christ returns.
James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
Sin is sin. We aren't complete. We have a promise. I just don't understand how carnal man can have the fullness of God in him.
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Hi Rick and Jeff,
We have only received an earnest of the Holy Spirit while still in the flesh, but we are then His temple and are sealed with the promise.
2Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (also Eph 1:13)
1Cor 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
v. 20 for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
The Spirit indwelling gives us the earnest of that eonian life now, so that we are able to overcome, to obey and bare fruit of the Spirit. With the Spirit of Christ indwelling we are no longer in bondage to the physical... Jesus Christ gives us life, spiritual knowledge beyond the physical. The Spirit indwelling creates a hunger/thirst for spiritual food.
Mat 4:4 But He answered, "It is written, "'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal (eonian) life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
So believers are "made alive" now, in this life... not as spirit beings, but having the mind of Christ (1Cor2:16),
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal (eonian) life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
v. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
v. 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
v. 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So we can be spiritually alive and yet be carnal.
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Hi Jeff,
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
v. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
v. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Jeff,
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
v. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
v. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
v. 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
v. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
v. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Amen!
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Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
It became obvious to me in Romans 8:11. God dwelling in us - he will quicken (make alive) our mortal bodies by His Spirit.
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So we can be spiritually alive and yet be carnal.
How else can we combat our carnality?
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So we can be spiritually alive and yet be carnal.
How else can we combat our carnality?
I don't know, but God is God.
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This thread was very helpful. Sometimes no matter what I read I get scared I have just sinned beyond anything forgiveable, even though i know this isn't true, I suffer it. I then stay away from God because I don't want Him to look at me. Probably the worst sin is not believing all the time, all, all of it that we are still so carnal and we must be aware that at any moment we are so very capable of sinning. I am going to start every morning from now on remembering this, now when the temptation comes, I only hope and pray God allows me the grace to overcome. I am so hard on myself and no excuses do I allow but dear God, my life is so hard and I tend to focus too much on it. I need more gratitude, not thoughts of sorrow. God does not allow me to go to despair though. This really isn't something new, I have hung on by a thread before. I can do it again. This too shall pass. I must remind myself. Maybe, just maybe something wonderful will happen. I will think this thought. I have to. "as a man think, so shall it be"
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Judy,
It was helpful for me too. I learned new Truth (new to me) and that's always a good thing. It's hard not to be ashamed of our sin when all we want is to "not" sin. But that's a good thing too. If you weren't aware of your sin, you probably wouldn't be aware of God either. Repenting is part of worshiping God, because He calls us to repent, and obedience is worship.
Peace,
Jeff
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Colin: Just a side note. I'd never read II Corinthians 3 except in the King James. I took another look at it in other versions which were clearer, as well as the translation you quoted. That alone was 'inspiring' and fruitful.
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
No, a down payment is in the present, not the future.
When you make a down payment on a house, you make a current payment. The balance is put off into the future.
For those Elect, who have God's Spirit in them, then they are spiritually alive now because the Spirit of God is LIFE itself. We have the earnest or down payment of the Spirit for we can do and understand spiritual things.
God does not condemn His begotten children, His Elect selected before creation. Jesus deals with us individually as the Great Shepherd Who looks over His lambs.
Of course, we still sin because we are not born again until the Resurrection of the Just at the 1st Resurrection, when we will be like the wind.
But we are special now. God watches over and protects His Elect, now at the present time. It will not go well for anyone to harm or bother God's Elect. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool".
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Well said JFK.
I loved your reference to the "A" team and Mr. T.
I recall that he had to be put to sleep to fly out on a mission.
Even such a tough man had his limitations and phobias.
thanks, Indiana Bob
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Tell me it ain't true I-Bob.
I didn't think Mr. T had any weaknesses. He beat up Rocky Balboa.
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Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
No, a down payment is in the present, not the future.
When you make a down payment on a house, you make a current payment. The balance is put off into the future.
For those Elect, who have God's Spirit in them, then they are spiritually alive now because the Spirit of God is LIFE itself. We have the earnest or down payment of the Spirit for we can do and understand spiritual things.
God does not condemn His begotten children, His Elect selected before creation. Jesus deals with us individually as the Great Shepherd Who looks over His lambs.
Of course, we still sin because we are not born again until the Resurrection of the Just at the 1st Resurrection, when we will be like the wind.
But we are special now. God watches over and protects His Elect, now at the present time. It will not go well for anyone to harm or bother God's Elect. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool".
Well, Ray taught the reason its so easy to believe that one has free will is because God is spirit and we cannot detect Gods spirit through our 5 senses, so God is in us and around us, He is everywhere but one cannot detect God with their senses.
So, is your meaning spiritually alive as in we now have spiritual life by the indwelling of God, but if so, would it not be Gods spirit that is spiritually alive and not ours ? But Ray also taught that the spirit in us is the breathe of life which God gave Adam.
So we can say that the breathe of life and spirit of life is one in the same so how are you understanding spiritually alive ?
Ray says the spirit has no understanding, what do you say about the spirit ? Has in understanding or not ?
I know you had made mention that if one does not have the spirit of God, they cannot learn the things of God but I don’t know about that sort of thing because Rays detractors certainly knew what Ray was teaching otherwise they could not of made any retort against his teaching.
Ray also said they don’t believe the scriptures but they know what the scriptures teach but they just don’t believe what the scriptures teach.
I would agree that it takes the spirit of God to help us or to get us to believe what the scriptures
teach. Or should I say to see the gospel within the gospel, but having said that Ray taught that the gospel of Christ can be found way back in the book of Genesis when God said to Abraham, in your seed shall I bless all the nations of the earth.
I just think we throw the word spirit around to much and confuse believers by doing so.
God bless.
-
Is this an accurate understanding?
1. Mankind has never been spiritually alive (save Christ) and will NOT be until Christ returns.
2. We can have an understanding of certain Spiritual Truths (per God's will) by His Spirit living within us (yet that doesn't make us spiritually alive - maybe just spiritually aware.)
3. We have no option but to sin, because of our spiritual weakness, but we are to repent, knowing that our sins are forgiven. This is the process of refining our carnal selves, through trials overcome, by God's grace and prompting, and love.
4. We do not have God's love, but He is "lov-ing" us in an ongoing process, which culminates with our becoming spiritually alive, at or after the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
If this is true then we are not spiritually alive. No one is. Without God's love in us, we have no way of escaping carnality, we can only hope to have certain victories in our lives, as our refinement continues.
I would say not accurate.
The Elect are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
With this Spirit, God lives within us, in our innermost being, our heart.
We are then in constant communication with God. God's Spirit within us leads us to do the works of Jesus.
This Spirit gives us understanding of the Scriptures and Spiritual things. Without the Spirit, there is no understanding.
We have the down payment of the Spirit within us.
However, no one is truly born of the Spirit until the 1st Resurrection.
And yet we sin. We can't not sin. How can we be spiritually alive? Doesn't it mean "free from sin"? I believe that the elect are filled with Gods Spirit, but I don't find Scripture or Ray's teaching that tells us we're "alive". My understanding is that to be alive we need to not be sinning (sin is death.) It's an either/or. We all have varying degrees of inspiration from God's Holy Spirit, but we are still carnal, and spiritually dead.
A down payment is something promised in the future.
No, a down payment is in the present, not the future.
When you make a down payment on a house, you make a current payment. The balance is put off into the future.
For those Elect, who have God's Spirit in them, then they are spiritually alive now because the Spirit of God is LIFE itself. We have the earnest or down payment of the Spirit for we can do and understand spiritual things.
God does not condemn His begotten children, His Elect selected before creation. Jesus deals with us individually as the Great Shepherd Who looks over His lambs.
Of course, we still sin because we are not born again until the Resurrection of the Just at the 1st Resurrection, when we will be like the wind.
But we are special now. God watches over and protects His Elect, now at the present time. It will not go well for anyone to harm or bother God's Elect. As Mr. T would say, "I pity the fool".
I should have more explicit. A down payment is something that shows intent regarding a promise. The down payment is a show of faith of something that will culminate at a future date.
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Well, Ray taught the reason its so easy to believe that one has free will is because God is spirit and we cannot detect Gods spirit through our 5 senses, so God is in us and around us, He is everywhere but one cannot detect God with their senses.
So, is your meaning spiritually alive as in we now have spiritual life by the indwelling of God, but if so, would it not be Gods spirit that is spiritually alive and not ours ? But Ray also taught that the spirit in us is the breathe of life which God gave Adam.
So we can say that the breathe of life and spirit of life is one in the same so how are you understanding spiritually alive ?
Ray says the spirit has no understanding, what do you say about the spirit ? Has in understanding or not ?
I know you had made mention that if one does not have the spirit of God, they cannot learn the things of God but I don’t know about that sort of thing because Rays detractors certainly knew what Ray was teaching otherwise they could not of made any retort against his teaching.
Ray also said they don’t believe the scriptures but they know what the scriptures teach but they just don’t believe what the scriptures teach.
I would agree that it takes the spirit of God to help us or to get us to believe what the scriptures
teach. Or should I say to see the gospel within the gospel, but having said that Ray taught that the gospel of Christ can be found way back in the book of Genesis when God said to Abraham, in your seed shall I bless all the nations of the earth.
I just think we throw the word spirit around to much and confuse believers by doing so.
Hi Rick, here are a few Scripture that should help you see how the Holy Spirit works. Notice that when Scripture is referring to the Holy Spirit of God it will have a capital S.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
v. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
v. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
v. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
v. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And here are a few emails to help as well.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html ------
Hi Ray,
Is the human spirit the place where God dwells in us? “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit (capital S) is spirit (lower case s)?” John 3:6
Thanks,
Dwight
Dear Dwight:
ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,305.0.html -----
Dear Mark:
I will make a few COMMENTS...........
Hello Ray,
I have recently been looking into the workings of the Spirit and have some questions. Please guide me in the right direction.
First concerning Jesus, When did he receive the Spirit of the Lord?
COMMENT: Jesus Christ WAS CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit!
In Is 11:1-3 it talks about the Spirit resting upon Him as opposed to those in the Old Testament whom the Spirit came upon for a specific purpose and then departed. It appears that John had the Spirit on him until Jesus' baptism, and then it seems like it left him and resided in Jesus permanently.
COMMENT: Nonsense.
Prior to his baptism, Jesus did no recorded supernatural works, did he not have the Spirit from birth? What is your take on this?
COMMENT: "Prior to baptism, Jesus had no recorded supernatural works..." Oh really? And you think that Jesus living a SINLESS LIFE as a teenager is less of a "supernatural work" than turning water into wine?
Secondly, do those in "the church" have the Spirit?
COMMENT: NO, they have "a" spirit.
If so, how did it come, why do they have it, and why is it so unproductive?
COMMENT: Oh, but their spirit of Satan is most productive. Along with doing "many wonderful works," they have succeeded in "deceiving the WHOLE WORLD."
If not, how do those in "His church" get it, since it is most often that thay come out of "the church"?
COMMENT: Coming out of the church is the only way that one will be given the Holy Spirit of God.
Speaking for myself, it certainly seems that Jesus came quickly to me a couple of months ago with new ears. After this, virtually everything I was hearing in "the church" made no sense anymore. Did I not have the Spirit prior to this?
COMMENT: I would not presume to say if or when you received God's Spirit, as I do not know you, what you believe, or how you live.
Thanks for your help.
Mark
COMMENT: When sin no longer "has dominion over you," you will know that God's Holy Spirit is operating in you. Not that you will not sin, but sin will not lord it over you; you will no longer be a slave to sin; you will not be fighting sin ever moment of your day; you will be given peace in that area of your life.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1483.0.html ----
WHAT IS IT TO BE HOLY? IS ONLY GOD HOLY?
THANKS DON
Dear Don:
All of God's people must be holy. Holy means to be in close contact with God, to be consecrated to God, to be set aside for special use by God, to be a Saint of God.
And yes, we are to "BE holy"--"But as He which has called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation [Gk: 'conduct and behaviour']" (I Pet. 1:15-16). One can only be holy if he has the Holy Spirit of God.
God be with you,
Ray
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COMMENT: When sin no longer "has dominion over you," you will know that God's Holy Spirit is operating in you. Not that you will not sin, but sin will not lord it over you; you will no longer be a slave to sin; you will not be fighting sin ever moment of your day; you will be given peace in that area of your life.
I think this pretty much settles the matter. We can't "not" sin - we are not "Jesus" - only "like" him. When sin no longer has complete control over us we will have a (great) measure of peace and confidence in our place in Christ.
I believe that I have a ways to go but I can still sense what God is changing in me.
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Well, Ray taught the reason its so easy to believe that one has free will is because God is spirit and we cannot detect Gods spirit through our 5 senses, so God is in us and around us, He is everywhere but one cannot detect God with their senses.
So, is your meaning spiritually alive as in we now have spiritual life by the indwelling of God, but if so, would it not be Gods spirit that is spiritually alive and not ours ? But Ray also taught that the spirit in us is the breathe of life which God gave Adam.
So we can say that the breathe of life and spirit of life is one in the same so how are you understanding spiritually alive ?
Ray says the spirit has no understanding, what do you say about the spirit ? Has in understanding or not ?
I know you had made mention that if one does not have the spirit of God, they cannot learn the things of God but I don’t know about that sort of thing because Rays detractors certainly knew what Ray was teaching otherwise they could not of made any retort against his teaching.
Ray also said they don’t believe the scriptures but they know what the scriptures teach but they just don’t believe what the scriptures teach.
I would agree that it takes the spirit of God to help us or to get us to believe what the scriptures
teach. Or should I say to see the gospel within the gospel, but having said that Ray taught that the gospel of Christ can be found way back in the book of Genesis when God said to Abraham, in your seed shall I bless all the nations of the earth.
I just think we throw the word spirit around to much and confuse believers by doing so.
Hi Rick, here are a few Scripture that should help you see how the Holy Spirit works. Notice that when Scripture is referring to the Holy Spirit of God it will have a capital S.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Hi Kat,
I see in Rom 8 :16 say His Spirit bears witness with our spirit, this is what I’m talking about concerning Rays teaching on our spirit.
Ray explained to my satisfaction that our spirit as stated in Genesis 2:7
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I believe Ray said breathe and spirit have the same meaning, but Rom 8;16 leads me to believe if Gods spirit bears witness with my spirit then my spirit has to have an intelligent’s of its own I would think.
But what intelligent’s does breathe have ? Could you clarified what scripture says and what Ray has said concerning spirit?
God bless.
-
See if this helps Rick. There is repetition in these, but there is a bit of a difference in each one that can help bring it all together.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ------
Dear Aaron:
You are not paying attention to my writings. The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being.
At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm --------------------
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
- souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
- souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
- souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
- souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
- souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
- souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
- life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
- souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
- souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
- none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
- honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
- even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
- souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
- souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
- souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
- and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
v
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
v
TV ANALOGY
Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.
Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.
Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.
Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.
Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).
At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.
But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.
And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.
Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html -----
Dear Dallas:
Is too, until recent years, referred to man as having three "components"--body, soul, and spirit. NOT TRUE. Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL." The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man. Understood?
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html -------
It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.
Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood? Good.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ----
Dear John:
Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46; I Cor. 2:11; etc.).
There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html ----------
We are told nothing regarding our pets except this; "For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. "Who knows [whether] the spirit of man [men] goes upward, and [whether] the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (Ecc. 3:19-21).
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
Now you know as much as I do. I too lost my favorite cat a year ago.
God be with you,
Ray
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See if this helps Rick. There is repetition in these, but there is a bit of a difference in each one that can help bring it all together.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ------
Dear Aaron:
You are not paying attention to my writings. The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being.
At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm --------------------
The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
- souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)
- souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)
- souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)
- souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)
- souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)
- souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)
- life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)
- souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)
- souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)
- none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)
- honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)
- even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)
- souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)
- souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)
- souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)
- and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).
These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.
v
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
v
TV ANALOGY
Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.
Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.
Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.
Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.
Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.
Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).
At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.
But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.
And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.
Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html -----
Dear Dallas:
Is too, until recent years, referred to man as having three "components"--body, soul, and spirit. NOT TRUE. Man is made of TWO components--body and spirit. God never put a soul into Adam. The soul of man is not a component, but rather the product of two combined components, namely: body and spirit. God formed man's body out of the ground. He then breathed into this body the breath of life (spirit), and the MAN, not some separate component, but the man became a "LIVING SOUL." The soul is not the living soul, but rather the man is the living soul. There is no soul without the body of man. Understood?
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html -------
It is true that we all speak of "THE soul" as if there is a separate entity inside of our body that is called "the soul." Not true. Without the spirit there is NO SOUL. Without the body there is NO SOUL.
Take a blue piece if transparent plastic or cellophane. Place it half way over a same size piece of yellow cellophane. You will have blue on one side, yellow on the other, and GREEN in the middle. The blue is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the GREEN IS THE SOUL. Notice that there is NO SOUL without the blue body and the yellow spirit. Separate the blue and yellow cellophane and the GREEN soul disappears. This is exactly how the human soul must be combined with a body and spirit, or IT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST. They are very closely related and appear to overlap, but there are distinction between soul and spirit. Understood? Good.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1675.0.html ----
Dear John:
Yes, there is a spirit in man (AND ALL ANIMALS). Nothing can live without "spirit." Spirit IS life (Ecc. 8:8; Ecc. 12:7; Luke 23:46; I Cor. 2:11; etc.).
There is no consciousness in our spirit alone. There is only consciousness (soul) when man's spirit is combined with a body. God retains our spirit until resurrection when He puts our spirit into a new body and we once again become conscious or receive back the quality of "soul." We are said to have new "spiritual" bodies, not that we are made "spirits."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html ----------
We are told nothing regarding our pets except this; "For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. "Who knows [whether] the spirit of man [men] goes upward, and [whether] the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (Ecc. 3:19-21).
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
Now you know as much as I do. I too lost my favorite cat a year ago.
God be with you,
Ray
Hi Kat,
Ray gives a totally awesome explanation here, the soul is the seat of our emotions and intelligent’s or our perception.
So what Im understanding now which might sound crazy but God gives our body His Spirit and then we become a living soul, who we are is found in the soul, our personality is in the soul which is a result of the two components ,body and spirit together produce soul.
Kat, there is always another question to be asked, this spirit that God imparts to all living creatures whether humans or beast both have the save life giving spirit, both come from the earth and both return to the earth in death or also called the return when God takes back His spirit.
When God calls us and imparts His spirit in us, is this a different spirit He imparts to our soul than the spirit that gives our body life when we become a living soul ?
If so, I think I understand how we can now live or have spiritual life now. To my understanding now I would think God is putting His Spirit in our soul, which is where we learn or in other words the seat of our soul. So now I see its possible to live a spiritual life even though we are carnal.
Does that make sense to you ?
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What a wonderful “classroom” tool we have in this forum. The wealth of material we have to draw upon from Ray’s writings and the opportunities to enhance or correct each other’s viewpoints is something worth treasuring. Different aspects of the topic have been raised and they afford, like the scripture models, “here a little, there a little” as we seek answers.
At times a clear “NO” helps to clarify a puzzling proposition….just as Jesus replied at times (Luke 13:3 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.)
Putting forward questions, which might seem doubtful can elicit answers, which illustrate other facets and help all of us in our quest. I thank you all for your contributions.
I began this thread with reference to Ray’s LOF part 4, where he elaborated on the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11ff). This parable forms part of a sequence of parables; back in chapter 13, Jesus was teaching on the Sabbath in one of the synagogues (v10) and He raised the question about the kingdom of God (v18). He “explained” with two parables. Thereafter, He went travelling and further parables are mentioned. We are then told of a visit to the house of a Pharisee, where after a confrontation about healing on the Sabbath, Jesus spoke a parable in regard to humility.
In Luke 14:14 there is a direct reference to the first resurrection, leading into another parable, which is reminiscent of Matthew 22:4.
In Luke 15:10 we see the point of the preceding short parables (of lost sheep, of ten pieces of silver). It mentions the joy over the repentance of just one sinner. Then Jesus launched into the parable of the prodigal son, which expands on that same theme. Those same feelings of joy are found in Luke 15:24.
As I understand it, the prodigal son (who represents us all, at different stages of our life and conversion) “came to himself” as Ray showed us in his LOF part 4, under the subtitle Destroyed, Perished and Lost…… an extract:-
[You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.
God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY. "And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).
This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? ]
The whole world has “gone astray”. This parable of the prodigal son highlights the person “coming to himself”, as a turning point. He was contemplating and had perceived what he had been, had become and thought of the alternative relief and blessings he might have. The picture is of the initial stages of repentance, which becomes evident to those to whom it is given to understand what Jesus was getting at.
Luke 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
The Greek word translated “dead” is without the definite article and carries the sense of someone who was once alive, but is now alive no longer: i.e. a dead person, as distinct from a dead body.
The Greek translated as “lost” is apollumi and we are grateful for Ray’s explanation of that word and of its implication, which he gives us in part 4.
The prodigal son was neither literally dead, nor had literally perished; my understanding is that it is describing someone as being “spiritually without life and lost”. That applied to us, in describing our situation prior to being “dragged” to learn the truth and to then set out on our journey through our remaining days here on earth, as a “work in progress”. I am grateful for all of the many replies to my post - they have provided many avenues of thought, so that we grasp the subject better.
I see a connection to Paul’s words in:-
Philip 2:3 KJV Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
The Concordant renders it as…..
Philippians 2 : CLV 3 nothing according with faction, nor yet according with vainglory - but with humility, deeming one another superior to one's self, 4 not each noting that which is his own, but each that of others also." 5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
This applies to the rest of our life, as we are being prepared for the “big job” ahead, to be involved with the rest of mankind. They, too, need to become like the prodigal son and “come to themselves” with a realisation that they were also “dead” spiritually…..but were not aware of it.
Philip 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For [because] it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
As with all parables, to accept the idea that everything in them ought to be seen as literal would be to make a mistake. Part 4 of the LOF makes that clear; Ray’s title….Understanding Spiritual Things … and his opening paragraphs notify us of that.
Ray also alerted us to the fact that the apostle Paul used parables, having been taught by Jesus. When we read 1Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily, we know that he did not actually “die” every day, although he had many perilous encounters. So, in what manner did he “die”? What sort of death was he talking about?
Here’s another passage where Paul mentioned the idea of being “dead”…..
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
In another verse, Paul meant us to understand that we consider ourselves “dead” toward or not wanting to live in sin.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Although we are certainly not yet resurrected, Paul had the same idea in mind when he wrote…..
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Well, I wouldn’t be writing this if I were literally dead. The idea of our “being dead” is to be understood in relation to our desires to “feed our carnality”, as Paul elaborates two verses later….
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify [put to death] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
That applies to us all….me too.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off [Greek apekduomai = divest wholly] the old man with his deeds;
There is a passage where we find the link of dying in this lifetime of ours, in conjunction with the Spirit. I think this is where we can construct the concept of “spiritual death”.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
We can’t do that for and by ourselves….it is thanks to God that we can strive for this “spiritual mortifying”. I think this is what Ray pointed to when he wrote about the prodigal son and coupled it with Hebrews 9:27.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
I am off to reread parts 3 and 6 of the LOF series (which deal with judgment) to “brush up” and get an even clearer picture. Colin
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When God calls us and imparts His spirit in us, is this a different spirit He imparts to our soul than the spirit that gives our body life when we become a living soul ?
If so, I think I understand how we can now live or have spiritual life now. To my understanding now I would think God is putting His Spirit in our soul, which is where we learn or in other words the seat of our soul. So now I see its possible to live a spiritual life even though we are carnal.
Does that make sense to you ?
Hi Rick, we have numerous Scripture that clearly show that God does indeed give believers another aspect of His Spirit called the Holy Spirit. Also known by other names, one being the Comforter.
John 15:26 And when the Comforter(G3875) has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Strong's G3875 paraklētos - An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.
This same word (parakletos) also occurs in John 14:16, 26; 16:7; while translators use differing names, it is the Holy Spirit and the same Greek word is translated “Advocate” in 1John 2:1 which applies to Christ.
1John 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate(G3875) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Christ plainly states that the Holy Spirit we receive is from Him... it is Christ that comes to indwell.
John 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
Here is where Ray explained this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ---
Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is that Spirit!
John 16:7 … I will send him (the Comforter) to you. v. 15 … He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.
What is He going to take of Christ? His Spirit. Where did Christ get that Spirit? From God the Father. But He is going to take of Christ, because it’s going to be the personality of Christ, see.
Paul didn’t say, I’m crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me. No, it’s, “I have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.” (Gal 2:20) But see it’s the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us and that spirit comes from God. So we can call it God’s Holy Spirit, even though it’s channeled through Christ. Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know.
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When Christ sent the Holy Spirit to the first believer it was done in a grand and wondrous way. I believe it was done this way at that time to show how special this is to a believer.
Acts 2:2 Suddenly, a sound like the roar of a mighty windstorm came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.
v. 3 They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated, and one rested on each of them.
v. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them that ability. (ISV)
Here's an excerpt where Ray spoke about this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------------
On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!
It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!
"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).
The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,
"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17).
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When the Holy Spirit is indwelling and witnesses with our human spirit (Rom 8:16) it certainly gives us a "newness of life" (Rom 6:4; 7:6).
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
That Scripture shows that this initial embuding with the Holy Spirit in a believer is like a "firstfruit," or earnest (Eph 1:14; 2Co 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5). Earnest G728 arrhabōn - a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest. But the "earnest" is also a "promise" from God, that once He begins this work in us He is certain to complete it (Php 1:6).
Eph 1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
v. 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.
v. 13 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
v. 14 who is the guarantee(earnest) of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Jeff, if I only take one thing away from all this (it boggles my mind) is one thing you said and one other thing. You said, "obedience is worship" This too will help motivate me with this mouth of mine. Also, i totally agree with the concept of 'soul' on this thread. People throw the word soul around anymore like it was the presence of God where i always just thought it was a deeper reaching into the mind for truths. We don't have the ability to "find' God, He finds us first but there can be enlightening moments of truth but that's all it is, enlightening moments of God's truth. Buuuut, then again, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Life and the Truth" So, is it possible God allows His state of Truth to be found? And is this done by the Holy Spirit.??? Help on this idea!!!!
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Jeff, if I only take one thing away from all this (it boggles my mind) is one thing you said and one other thing. You said, "obedience is worship" This too will help motivate me with this mouth of mine. Also, i totally agree with the concept of 'soul' on this thread. People throw the word soul around anymore like it was the presence of God where i always just thought it was a deeper reaching into the mind for truths. We don't have the ability to "find' God, He finds us first but there can be enlightening moments of truth but that's all it is, enlightening moments of God's truth. Buuuut, then again, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Life and the Truth" So, is it possible God allows His state of Truth to be found? And is this done by the Holy Spirit.??? Help on this idea!!!!
Hi Judy,
I like how Ray said its all one, one Father one Lord one Baptism one faith. I don’t see it in parts or steps, but this thread really brought it together in a way I had not viewed the subject before.
To me, the body and spirit together = soul, the soul is who we are, it’s what we think, do and say, God’s Holy Spirit lives in our soul and so our relationship with our creator begins.
Yes, we do have enlighten moments but they are more than that because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who gets us to question everything we think, do and say, constantly reasoning with us inwardly and empowering us to sin less.
And then, you know, there is that other part of Gods Spirit that gives us life when untied with our body at birth.
This thread is what this forum is about!
God bless. :)
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Jeff, if I only take one thing away from all this (it boggles my mind) is one thing you said and one other thing. You said, "obedience is worship" This too will help motivate me with this mouth of mine. Also, i totally agree with the concept of 'soul' on this thread. People throw the word soul around anymore like it was the presence of God where i always just thought it was a deeper reaching into the mind for truths. We don't have the ability to "find' God, He finds us first but there can be enlightening moments of truth but that's all it is, enlightening moments of God's truth. Buuuut, then again, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Life and the Truth" So, is it possible God allows His state of Truth to be found? And is this done by the Holy Spirit.??? Help on this idea!!!!
Hi Judy,
I learned that obedience is worship from a bible study of Ray's. I thought that as amazing too. I had always struggled to get away from what the church taught me.
Peace
Jeff
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Jeff, if I only take one thing away from all this (it boggles my mind) is one thing you said and one other thing. You said, "obedience is worship" This too will help motivate me with this mouth of mine. Also, i totally agree with the concept of 'soul' on this thread. People throw the word soul around anymore like it was the presence of God where i always just thought it was a deeper reaching into the mind for truths. We don't have the ability to "find' God, He finds us first but there can be enlightening moments of truth but that's all it is, enlightening moments of God's truth. Buuuut, then again, Jesus said, I am the Way, the Life and the Truth" So, is it possible God allows His state of Truth to be found? And is this done by the Holy Spirit.??? Help on this idea!!!!
Hi Judy,
I like how Ray said its all one, one Father one Lord one Baptism one faith. I don’t see it in parts or steps, but this thread really brought it together in a way I had not viewed the subject before.
To me, the body and spirit together = soul, the soul is who we are, it’s what we think, do and say, God’s Holy Spirit lives in our soul and so our relationship with our creator begins.
Yes, we do have enlighten moments but they are more than that because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who gets us to question everything we think, do and say, constantly reasoning with us inwardly and empowering us to sin less.
And then, you know, there is that other part of Gods Spirit that gives us life when untied with our body at birth.
This thread is what this forum is about!
God bless. :)
Well said friend! :)
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Jeff and Rick, thank you for your replies. I understand this but forgot to say, Non-believers, come up with some pretty darn good wisdom and have a lot of moments of truth also but I find they attribute these moments to themselves. So God works in unbelievers too?? Even though they don't give Him credit (but then this is assuming God does work in them) ???
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Jeff and Rick, thank you for your replies. I understand this but forgot to say, Non-believers, come up with some pretty darn good wisdom and have a lot of moments of truth also but I find they attribute these moments to themselves. So God works in unbelievers too?? Even though they don't give Him credit (but then this is assuming God does work in them) ???
They have a different spirit working in them. They do not have the holy spirit working in them. They worship the beast and his image.