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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Douglas Wayne Thomas on September 27, 2008, 04:10:59 PM
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Having read a great deal of these posts has got me thinking. Is every Christian church so wrong that they have nothing good to offer their followers? I am not trying to start WW3 here just asking.
Are we supposed to ignore everything that the "mainstream churches" do because we know that many of the doctrines that they teach are false? Is there a church around that teaches the truth? Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught? How would I find out about such a church if one did exist? Just some questions I have. Any replies would be greatly appreciated.
Seeking God's truth always.
Douglas
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Having read a great deal of these posts has got me thinking. Is every Christian church so wrong that they have nothing good to offer their followers? I am not trying to start WW3 here just asking.
Are we supposed to ignore everything that the "mainstream churches" do because we know that many of the doctrines that they teach are false? Is there a church around that teaches the truth? Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught? How would I find out about such a church if one did exist? Just some questions I have. Any replies would be greatly appreciated.
Seeking God's truth always.
Douglas
Hello Douglas,
Have you read part 8 of the Lake of Fire series: WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT? [http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html (http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html)] This may give you the answers you seek.
Marques
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If people gather together in a building they call a "church" and hold "services" and "worship" then they are deceived, period. Anyone who knows and believes the truth would not gather in the same manner as the modern day churches, they would make it clear that it was something different. As far as ignoring everything they do, I'm not sure I understand what you mean, churches have been known to really help the community's needy and there's nothing about that we should ignore; it's just their teachings that we need to stay away from. Not saying that everything every church teaches is wrong, but we should search for the truth in scripture and be wary of things from those churches because we know that they are blind. Truth believers would be more likely to gather in homes and have Bible studies, and you would have to attend one to see what took place and was taught to know if they were right or not.
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Is every Christian church so wrong that they have nothing good to offer
They have no teaching that are worth anything.
Are we supposed to ignore everything that the "mainstream churches" do
No, just what they teach.
Is there a church around that teaches the truth?
Not that we've come across.
Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught?
Non question because there are no churches teaching the truth. But it's impossible not to have acquaintances outside the Body of Christ.
Dennis
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I believe that Ray would say NO there is not a church doctrine that is true
But I just looks at the words:
Fellowhip G2842 κοινωνία
koinōnia koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary money) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
Church G1577
ἐκκλησία ekklēsia ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Why would I now want to participate/ social or religious intercourse with a group with false doctrines?
It does not mean that I will not have conversations with them, I just will not pray with them, they do not pray the Fathers Will.
I no longer need their social events because that caters to carnal needs and I want the spiritual now.
I will not support them financially but I will give to those who have needs.
That is why few come out...they will not rest in God's sovernity, they will not listen and follow "the Good Shepard", they would rather follow another flock of sheep led by a billy goat.
Thou shalt not commit adultery....it is not just a physical law
spiritually it mean not to mix :
good with evil, linen with the wool, Truth with false doctrines.
Beloved
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I can't tell you how many times I have wished there was a 'yes' answer to your questions. Use to be nearly continuously, now it's just down to a few times a day. ;)
But, no...the only thing that would appeal to me in that list is casual fellowship...yet I know that would be tense and interrupted if they found out what a 'heretic' I was, and ultimately empty.
If you think about it (and believe me, I have) no local fellowship that DID believe and practice according to the truth would be large enough to buy a building, even if they wanted to. ;D You don't build megachurches with this gospel.
No...for most of us this is our time in the wilderness. We can pray for different, but His will be done.
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I believe most churches teach you the milk of the word along with some corrupt doctrines. In other words the they teach some truth and mix in a lot lies with it. Its a very clever way the devil decieves people (and that isnt just in churches either).
Think about it. Almost all of us came out of a babylon with some truth, the baby milk of the Word, but here are being fed the steak and potatoes with Rays teachings inspired by God.
We all came here with some truth. We all built our house on the sand in some sort of church. You shouldnt feel the need to go back to any of those churches because you already drank the milk they teach. This reminds me of my most favorite thing Ray has wrote...
Lake of Fire series part 14
LET ME KNOW
Are you beginning to SEE IT? Is God giving you understanding? Do you see the grand and marvelous wisdom of it all? Drop me an email—let me know. I want to know how many out there in computerland are beginning to have ears to hear and eyes to see.
THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!
But NOW, "I am crucified WITH Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ lives IN ME: and the life which I now life in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God, who loved ME [and YOU], and gave Himself for ME [and YOU]" (Gal. 2:20).
In conclusion:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard BEHIND me a great voice, as of a trumpet… And I turned to see the voice that spoke with ME. And being TURNED, I saw seven gold candlesticks; [the complete church of God in all generations, with MY sins outlined in each and every one of them] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire; [PURGING all who look upon Him] And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned [refined] in a furnace; and His voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was as the SUN SHINING IN HIS STRENGTH [no longer a physical body with HOLES in it].
And when I saw Him [in my SPIRIT] I fell at His feet as DEAD. And He laid His right hand upon ME [as He will upon YOU], saying unto ME [and unto YOU],
FEAR NOT" (Rev. 1:10-17).
Truly: "We have seen the enemy and he is US."
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Hi Douglas.
Say, you know, I felt the same way too. About finding a church as well, where one can fellowship. When I show up at a church I ask what happens to people that don’t except Christ on this side.
Answer, they go to hell and suffer forever.
Then I ask do people have a free will to do as they wish.
Answer, yes they do.
It seems to me if any religion teaches these two beliefs, then all other teachings they teach have to evolve around these teachings.
So where is the truth? Since I started reading Ray’s papers and seeing the scriptures Ray uses to prove his point I ‘am fully confident that God is indeed working through Ray.
Why would one want to go from Christ teachings to the Pharisees teachings or go from Ray’s teaching which is truth back to the church teachings which are false?
When I went to church I walk out the same man I was when I walk in. I never change and I always had fears of not being saved.
Now that I have been reading Ray’s papers and spending time on this forum I’m changing and I’m no longer afraid of not being saved.
There is something inside of me that won’t let me go back to church again and that’s the truth I now have which is exposing the great deception the church has been involved with for hundreds of years leading people astray.
I hope this helps you with your understanding. Just walk away. God wants you to come out of the great harlot.
It’s why you’re here and why I’m here and why we are all here.
Your brother and friend in Christ. Richard.
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Dave I would just make one small point in your last sentence
No...for most of us this is our time in the wilderness. We can pray for different, but His will be done.
We are no longer in the wilderness....they are in the wilderness, just like the nation of Israel who wandered 40 yrs , because of their unbelief.
Remember there were no commas in Greek or Hebrew, Read the words
(Luk 3:4) as it is written in the book of the discourses of Isaiah the prophet: A voice of one crying aloud! In the desert, prepare ye the way of the Lord, straight, be making his paths;
John the Baptist resided in the physical desert, and he drew them there so they could see where they were spiritually.
beloved
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John the Baptist resided in the physical desert, and he drew them there so they could see where they were spiritually.
Beloved
That’s and awesome point. I never thought of it like that. Thank you. :)
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Got it. :)
Maybe we're on the mountaintop with Christ, then.
Mark 9:2 And after six days doth Jesus take Peter, and James, and John, and bringeth them up to a high mount by themselves, alone, and he was transfigured before them,...
having already been with Jesus in the wilderness...
Matthew 4:2 ...and having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he did hunger.
I know afterwards, I did hunger.
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In regard to going to church, this passage comes to mind
(Mat 6:5) `And when thou mayest pray, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites, because they love in the synagogues, and in the corners of the broad places--standing--to pray, that they may be seen of men; verily I say to you, that they have their reward.
(Mat 6:6) `But thou, when thou mayest pray, go into thy chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who is seeing in secret, shall reward thee manifestly.
G5009 ταμεῖον tameion
Thayer Definition:
1) a storage chamber, storeroom 2) a chamber especially an inner chamber
3) a secret room Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: contraction of a presumed derivative of tamias (a dispenser or distributor
G2374 θύρα thura
Thayer Definition:
1) a door 1a) the vestibule 1b) used of any opening like a door, an entrance, way or passage into 1c) in a parable or metaphor 1c1) the door through which sheep go in and out, the name of him who brings salvation to those who follow his guidance 1c2) “an open door” is used of the opportunity of doing something 1c3) the door of the kingdom of heaven (likened to a palace) denotes the conditions which must be complied with in order to be received into the kingdom of God
Part of Speech: noun feminine
So you see, we need go to the supreme distrubitor/ store room to pray to the Father in secret and we close our door to the outside.
In the past Joe started a post on the "secret places" that deals with this subject more.
I always wondered what Jesus did when he went to the temple in Jersulem. Then figurued it out that everywhere he went ....he was always in the secret place, because he was always praying and doing the Will of the Father....in the temple, in the streets and in the publican dining halls.
When my eyes were finally opened I let go of my herd mentality and now I am thinking like a single sheep. Follow that Shepard.
beloved
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the joy in my heart grows more and more as i learn so many tidbits of remarkable truths from my brothers and sisters in Christ. it causes me to realize how much studying i have to do in order to truly make the scriptures and the life of Jesus Christ my mainstay. i love your wisdom Beloved.
claudia
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Church G1577
ἐκκλησία ekklēsia ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.
Beloved
Ah Beloved so wonderfully had already define chruch ,,,,,, i see ;D ;)
Rodger
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I can Identify with your questions! Ray and some of the others here came out of the Worldwide Church of God, I was a Seventh Day Adventist for many years! Some friends and I began to realize that the SDA church was not where we belonged! BUT we were all Adventists at heart and felt like there was no other place to go! So for 8 long years we worshipped together in our homes keeping the Sabbath day like all good Adventists.
The more we studied the Scriptures the more questions we had. I never believed in all the doctrines of the church, but you know they kept the Sabbath and they SAID they had the truth! I never believed that people burned forever in hell and the SDA church teaches that sinners will be destroyed instead of tortured. I didn't know of any other church that taught that!
Well, we did find another place to worship once we realized that the Sabbath is not the true test of faith! We found the Vineyard Churches and our Vineyard healed us of all that Adventism! My friends are still there, but no not me I have to go out testing the waters! Going where God sends you sure won't win you any popularity contests :o
So here I am again, only this time I understand more about studying the Scriptures and "READING ALL THE WORDS!" I don't think Ray Smith wins many popularity contests either! So we're all in this together sitting before our computer screens reading the LOF series over and again wondering why we never saw it before and kind of like we're the last humans on earth wondering if there are any more of us out there! Sometimes it feels like you're sitting in front of a shortwave radio saying "C Q, (seek you) is anyone there?"
Well God is there! Sorry, I don't know any true churches except for the Church that Jesus is coming back for, when we are told "This is the way, walk ye in it" What else can we do?
Walking with you,
Kathy
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I know of no man made church that gives the following:
Lu 11:3 our appointed bread be giving us daily;
Some might give you Pharisee bread on Sunday or even Wednesday. Even others might give you a Sadducee's meal on a tradition or another special day.
Mt 10:8 ...freely ye did receive, freely give.
Be it money, freedom etc..your going to pay the Pharisees toll.
Most churches do this:
Mt 23:14 `Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye eat up the houses of the widows, and for a pretence make long prayers, because of this ye shall receive more abundant judgment.
Lu 11:43 `Wo to you, the Pharisees, because ye love the first seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the market-places
A lot of outward show goes on in the man made churches. A lot of religious pride and chest beating.
Mt 12:38 Then answered certain of the scribes and Pharisees, saying, `Teacher, we will to see a sign from thee.`
Mt 12:39 And he answering said to them, `A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Many are always on the look out for the latest signs in the churches.
The man made churches will feed you this:
Mt 16:6 and Jesus said to them, `Beware, and take heed of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees;`
Mr 8:15 and he was charging them, saying, `Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod
Many types of leaven and all dangerous.
We trust in the mercy of God to feed us the only true bread...
Joh 6:34 They said, therefore, unto him, `Sir, always give us this bread.`
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said to them, `I am the bread of the life;
This is the bread we always need.
Jeff
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Thank you to everyone that replied to my posts, there is some great information that was given to me. Also thank you everyone for not biting my head off for asking these questions. I did re-read the LoF series that people suggested. I just have one more point that I need clarified.
Notice that the "called" and the "chosen" cannot be the same group, as one is "many" and the other is "few."
I understand this statement, however these two groups are not mutually exclusive are they? Are not the chosen a subset of the called? How would one know they were chosen if they were not called first?
Maybe I am just reading this wrong, it would not be the first time I have read something wrong.
The way I view this is as a hierarchy. The higher levels are closer to God so to speak. The lower level with the most people is the called. The next level up with far fewer people are the chosen, however all of the chosen were drawn out of the pool of the called.
Am I viewing this correctly? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Seeking to do God's will always,
Douglas
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Thank you to everyone that replied to my posts, there is some great information that was given to me. Also thank you everyone for not biting my head off for asking these questions. I did re-read the LoF series that people suggested. I just have one more point that I need clarified.
Notice that the "called" and the "chosen" cannot be the same group, as one is "many" and the other is "few."
I understand this statement, however these two groups are not mutually exclusive are they? Are not the chosen a subset of the called? How would one know they were chosen if they were not called first?
Maybe I am just reading this wrong, it would not be the first time I have read something wrong.
The way I view this is as a hierarchy. The higher levels are closer to God so to speak. The lower level with the most people is the called. The next level up with far fewer people are the chosen, however all of the chosen were drawn out of the pool of the called.
Am I viewing this correctly? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Seeking to do God's will always,
Douglas
Hello Douglas,
Yes, the 'chosen' are chosen from the 'called'. You also have the 'chosen and faithful' [Rev. 17:14] which are of the 'chosen'.
Called= Called out of the world into the physical church
Chosen= Chosen out of the physical church (Babylon; 'come out of her my people' Rev.18:4) into the true, spiritual church
Chosen and Faithful= the chosen who '...overcometh and shall not be hurt of the 2nd death' [Rev. 2:11] '...on such the 2nd death have no power' [Rev 20:6]
If you've read posts where a member may have asked 'who are the chosen' or 'are you one of the chosen', usually most if not all answer they hope to be but do not know for sure. The reason why is because it takes a lifetime to achieve this high calling [...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Rev. 2:10] and also 'The Lord knoweth them that are his' [2 Tim 2:19]. Although this scripture does not say 'only' the Lord knows those that are his, reading through the epistles of Paul, Peter, etc., we do read of those who could be cast off so one can not be sure until the resurrection.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Marques - Yes that helps very much, I agree; one has to be faithful till the end, the road is indeed very narrow.
Thank you for your insights.
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All our eyes were opened by God's grace. We all started in the mainstream churches before we learned God's truth's. Personally, i dont feel anymore need going to the building called church and listen to hell and free will doctrines..but..it is the place where God brought me first, to be fed with milk.
God brought me out spiritually, but i stay attached physically in a sort of way. I have a 14 year old daughter, and all her friends go to church...im in no way going to forbid her to go...i talk to her about the teachings...but it is God, and only God, that opens eyes and minds. From what i see, the church does a lot of good also, and i keep taking part of that as long as im wellcome...becos when people want to talk with me...i will keep pointing them on what i learned the last 5 months.
in Christ
Robin
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If people gather together in a building they call a "church" and hold "services" and "worship" then they are deceived, period
Are the Bible studies that Ray holds in the building called his home as they worship God in seeking his truth deceptive then?
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If people gather together in a building they call a "church" and hold "services" and "worship" then they are deceived, period
Are the Bible studies that Ray holds in the building called his home as they worship God in seeking his truth deceptive then?
Ray doesn't call his home a church.
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I believe most churches teach you the milk of the word along with some corrupt doctrines. In other words the they teach some truth and mix in a lot lies with it.
Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?
Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times. Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will. I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?
Are all teachers Pharisees? Babylon has a purpose.
Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?
I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:
Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.
Jeff
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Ray doesn't call his home a church.
Semantics. You're missing the point.
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Here is an excerpt from the article no. 6 in the LOF, 'THE DEPTH OF SATAN AND THE CHURCH OF GOD. Also there are a couple of emails.
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html --------------------------
THE CHURCH OF GOD IN PRIVATE HOUSES
There was a transition period where the disciples still went up to the temple, but God’s intimate dealings would now be found in more humble surroundings. When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the first Saints of Jesus, it was not in a synagogue, but in a house:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all THE HOUSE where they were sitting" (Acts 2:1-2).
Church services were held in houses:
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (I Cor. 16:19).
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house� (Col., 4:15).
"Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, and to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in your house" (Philemon 1-2).
When we come to the famous Jerusalem Conference in the fifteenth chapter of Acts, we read that Paul and Barnabas were "…being brought on their way by the CHURCH…" (Acts 15:3). This is the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of the synagogue system. Notice that in this conference their determination was to not force the Law of Moses on new Gentile converts:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with THE WHOLE CHURCH…" (Acts 15:22).
The High Priests did not attend this conference. This was the first ‘ecumenical counsel,’ if you will, of the Church of Jesus Christ, consisting of only those who believed, who formulated policy which would be binding on the whole church.
The Jews had "synagogues"—church buildings. The newly converted Christians came out of those synagogue church buildings and their doctrines, and met in homes. Why? Mostly because Christ was not taught or tolerated in these synagogues. In order to worship and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it became necessary to "come out of her"—the synagogue system of religion.
Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the followers of Jesus Christ were hated and despised by most leaders of most synagogues. Do we think that anything has changed regarding this in today’s churches? If Jesus Christ returned to virtually any Christian church in the world today, unrecognized in a business suit, and began teaching His own Gospel, the leaders of the churches would throw Him out. And I say this without the least hesitation as to what the implications of my statement are.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6056.0.html -----------
I assembly with Believers of like mind as often as possible. This is not done in a "church building," however. Usually in private homes and Bible Conferences. God does not dwell in temples, cathedrals, and church buildings:
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Well where DOES God dwell if not in church buildings?
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that YOU ARE THE TEMPLE of God, and that the Spirit of God DWELLS IN Y-O-U"
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1215.0.html -------
Not to sound cute, Emmanuel, but I don't have a church. I am a member of GOD'S CHURCH, and it is a spiritual organism, not a physical building with man-made creeds.
Paul stopped baptizing altogether after he learned that no physical ritual will make anyone spiritual. We are baptized in spirit, not water; we are circumcised in spirit, not in the flesh; we partake of Christ's body not in the physical with bread, but in the spirit, etc.
Matt. 28:19--"...baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit....:" IS NOT SCRIPTURE. That part of a verse was inserted by the Catholic Church hundreds of years after the apostles.
God be with you,
Ray
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Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?
Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times. Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will. I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?
Are all teachers Pharisees? Babylon has a purpose.
Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?
I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:
Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.
Jeff
Hello Jeff,
1. Yes, they are teaching lies even if they believe them. A lie is still a lie. Whether the Lord opens one's eyes to the truth or not, He does not 'make' anyone sin or believe these heretical fables. Their carnal nature does that all by themselves. Though mankind is not responsible for sin, we are still nonetheless held accountable for our sins, which we do voluntarily.
2. We never forget that this is God's intention as 'All is of God' [Rom 11:36]. But Paul still admonishes us to 'abhor [Gk. dislike, have a horror of] that which is evil' Rom 12:9.
3. All that teach the doctrines of man as though of God are Pharisees, yes.
4. All the spiritual fruit of Christ has not gone anywhere. When we state how the 'church' is of Satan, it's not the people so much, just their teachings.
5. Sorry you feel that this is some kind of spiritual country-club. For this I have no answer as I do not see the forum in that way. If everyone on every post was talking about they were of the elect or some other statement to puff themselves up, then I could agree. But I really never see those kinds of statements.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I believe most churches teach you the milk of the word along with some corrupt doctrines. In other words the they teach some truth and mix in a lot lies with it.
Are they teaching lies, if they believe them?
Satan is a liar and intentionally so. He deceives those whose eyes God has not chosen to open yet, as well as the elect at times. Pastors, ministers, preachers, priests believe what they do, because it's God's will. I'm certain that there are disingenuous, dishonest people knowingly fleecing deceived people who follow blasphemous doctrine, but do we forget that this is intentional?
Are all teachers Pharisees? Babylon has a purpose.
Where is the compassion, mercy, grace, patience and forgiveness of Christ in this?
I say this out of love for all of you because you are God's creation:
Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.
Jeff
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
We should always remember that we did not get here because of anything we did.
The only difference between them and us is God has chosen us. You can read the reasons why he called us above.
Dennis
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Sometimes when I come here, I feel like I'm at a country club and the rest of humanity is comprised of waiters and busboys.
Let me add:
It is a club of sorts, only you have it backwards. We are the waiters and busboys.
Everyone is born blind to the truth. You can take things you've learned here to almost any preacher (we never know if our words will change someone according to God's plan) and show them a simple truth and they will totally reject it.
It is a minor miracle that we see the truth (God simply removes the scales from our eyes), but it's a bigger miracle when the church is presented with the truth in a simple, obvious way, and they cannot see it.
I think I know what you are getting at Jeff: Many of these men are decent, caring individuals and do not deserve our scorn. You try and show them the simple truth and you will expierence their scorn. Same with your friends and family:
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
There but for the grace of God go I.
Dennis
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Ray doesn't call his home a church.
Semantics. You're missing the point.
The whole point is that Ray knows the definition of "church", those who erect a building and call it a church and deem that building a holy place where one must go to find God are deceived.
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great visual metaphor Dennis.
The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.
Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups.
beloved
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To All,
Richard D, Dennis and Kat you have captured my feelings about the institutional church perfectly. My wife and I attended the funeral of a good man whom I came to know in the church I last attended nearly 3 years ago. It is always the same when I run into the members, the ladies hug me and the men shake my hand and all are praying that I will come back. I just answer that I would not trade my relationship with CHRIST now for anything in the past. Their next question is "Where are you going to church?" When I reply that I am the church and I do not choose to attend any specific service they are stunned and I generally do not get anymore questions. Occasionally, some will ask further and I will always mention Bible-Truths and this forum as my trusted teacher.
The need to belong, to have a doctrine, to have leaders, to be like-minded, and to desire fellowship are normal and natural human desires. This is Satan's best device in deceiving most co-called Christians throughout known history.
It takes GOD'S direct calling to open our eyes to the deceit, lies and false lures of the institutional church system. I think nearly all of us can attest that it was the need to search out GOD'S real truths that led us out of the Babylonian System. Only GOD can call and only GOD can reveal HIS perfect truths. GOD chooses when, how, how much, and to whom HE reveals HIS truths.
Yes, the Babylonian Church System does have a purpose. I thank GOD that HE opened many doors for my growth from spiritual milk to spiritual solid food through this system. My constant prayer is that HE will open the minds of many more to HIS wonderful truths soon. However, I am fully convinced that all is of GOD and that HIS plan is perfect.
Phil3:10
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great visual metaphor Dennis.
The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.
Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups.
beloved
Thanks, but that's not quite what I had in mind Dr. Carol.
My point is we should be servants now as we will be servants in the next life.
This whole exercise is about becoming humble and meek (among other things).
We should not consider ourselves better in any way, because we are not.
Dennis
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;D ;D ;D
I get it I just did not express it well...the waiter and the busboy are only passing information from the Chef that He has showed them, they no absolutely nothing of cooking or food or needs.
They go to the table in life and present from the Chef the things the chef thinks are needed and the waiter and the busboys pick up the broken dishes and uneaten food.
Like the feeding of the 5000 where they pick up the broken pieces of food the pieces into twelve baskets .... all of these servants will be broken ...
(Luk 22:27) For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
Thanks for the clarification Dennis
beloved
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Dennis I like your reply. Many people equate meek with being weak and being humble as being like a doormat. They are not like that at all.
Meekness is the ability given by the Holy Spirit to stop demanding my own way. It is being set free from the tyranny of always wanting what I want, and right now. It is knowing that God is taking care of me and being deeply contented and serene about what He is doing.
Look at the example Jesus set for us. He was humble and meek and He had all the authority He ever needed. Remember when He was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane? In the confusion and passion of the moment, one of Jesus’ disciples took a sword and cut off the ear of one of the arresting soldiers.
In an act of mercy, and an incredible display of self-control and meekness, Jesus healed the soldier, then reprimanded His disciple. Jesus knew that it wasn't time to fight back or insist on His own way. He simply humbled Himself and submitted to the authorities…willingly giving Himself up as a sacrifice on the cross.
The amazing thing is that Jesus could have resisted. He had the power to call the angels down for a dramatic rescue. He didn’t submit because He was weak. On the contrary, He was intentionally meek. Meekness is really humble strength under control.
Humility is freedom from pride and arrogance. It’s having a modest estimation of your own worth. You don’t look down on yourself, but neither are you full of yourself. Humility is not thinking badly of yourself; it’s just not having yourself on your mind all the time. It’s having an awareness of your own defects. When we realize that we all have faults, we treat others much better. Humility means to be meek, not weak.
I agree that there a myriad amount of other reasons why we have to change if we strive to become the chosen and faithful, being meek and humble are a good start though. Just my random thoughts.
Seeking to do God's will always,
Douglas
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Douglas, I love that picture of Jesus. Years ago I heard some pastor on the radio talking about meekness he said "don't mistake Jesus' meekness for weakness, remember that meekness is power under control." I have never forgotten that! How awesome it would be if we could see more meekness in the world. So many bullies-so little meekness!
Kathy
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Douglas, I love that picture of Jesus. Years ago I heard some pastor on the radio talking about meekness he said "don't mistake Jesus' meekness for weakness, remember that meekness is power under control." I have never forgotten that! How awesome it would be if we could see more meekness in the world. So many bullies-so little meekness!
Kathy
I double your sentiment, Kathy. You and Douglas made my picture of Jesus brighter and better. I always believed that Jesus was the church and still do. I think just coming here brings me closer to Him and to our Heavenly Father. Just my thoughts.
A young Sister in Christ,
Pam
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It is a club of sorts, only you have it backwards. We are the waiters and busboys.
This is a good place. There are good people here and there's love flowing throughout.
This isn't Ray's website as some have suggested, it's God's website. It's about God, for God and of God. It's purpose is to glorify our Creator. It's for that express purpose that we even exist.
Dennis, you're right. There are waiters and busboys here. Most of the time.
What I'm talking about is the way we refer to the wandering souls, the lost church. It burns a hole in my heart, when I see it. We mock them and as it reads - especially to those visiting for the first time - they've been segregated by this forum. Assigned to some lower-class spiritual level, by souls that rightfully can go no further than to lay prostrate in front of God asking for forgiveness for our own sin. Those lost people are simply reacting to the circumstances that our Lord has created for HIS own purpose. Those people are subject to God in exactly the same way everyone here is.
This is not a club and this forum is not elite. Every single one of us are worms, yet through grace we've somehow been blessed with a better understanding of the deeper things of God. What credit is that to us? What have we ever done to deserve something that glorious? Just how grateful are we? Better yet - how prideful are we? He can take away just as easily as He gives.
We're also mirrors and sometimes what's reflected here smacks of the world, just like any church on the corner. That's ok, because it's in our nature, but to ignore it is to stagnate. We are imperfect, but becoming...
What we have here is a gift. If not for God's benevolence and Ray's blessed obedience, we would still be with the others worshipping in vain, oblivious to the Truth.
Are the things we post, glorifying God? Do they reflect the compassion that God shows us through grace? Grace - the most awesome concept mankind could ever hope to understand. Do we reflect that grace outside this forum? If we aren't reflecting it in the forum, then the answer to that seems plain.
Everyone is born blind to the truth. You can take things you've learned here to almost any preacher (we never know if our words will change someone according to God's plan) and show them a simple truth and they will totally reject it.
Why are "we" so focused on what's going on in the Christian pulpits around the world? That's God's business. Everything on the bt.com website from the top down to the LOF series could be removed and it wouldn't change a single thing. John Hagee, James Kennedy, Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Van Impe and even Billy Graham simply cannot and will not be changed by the blessing God has given to us in the Truth that overflows here. There's no point in talking to those people because they can't hear - it's impossible for them to hear the message here and it's fruitless to badger them. Especially because that's how God wants it.
It is a minor miracle that we see the truth[ (God simply removes the scales from our eyes), but it's a bigger miracle when the church is presented with the truth in a simple, obvious way, and they cannot see it. I think I know what you are getting at Jeff: Many of these men are decent, caring individuals and do not deserve our scorn. You try and show them the simple truth and you will experience their scorn. Same with your friends and family:
Those men are not decent, caring individuals. Neither am I. Those men are passing through time, exactly as God desires them to, doing what God has given them to do. I don't care what those people believe, it's not my job to know that. All I care about is the Truth.
I've been doing this a long time. I know the scorn and I cherish every bit of it. It means that God is working in me.
Ray has graciously imparted knowledge to us. What does knowledge bear, if not love?
1 Corinthians 13 (Darby)
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And if I shall dole out all my goods in food, and if I deliver up my body that I may be burned, but have not love, I profit nothing.
4 Love has long patience, is kind; love is not emulous [of others]; love is not insolent and rash, is not puffed up,
5 does not behave in an unseemly manner, does not seek what is its own, is not quickly provoked, does not impute evil,
6 does not rejoice at iniquity but rejoices with the truth,
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part:
10 but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child.
12 For we see now through a dim window obscurely, but then face to face; now I know partially, but then I shall know according as I also have been known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these [is] love.
My only reason for saying these things is because that's what's on my heart.
Jeff
P.S. to Marques
Yes, they are teaching lies even if they believe them. A lie is still a lie. Whether the Lord opens ones eyes to the truth or not, He does not 'make' anyone sin or believe these heretical fables.
Marques,
Why is lying wrong? The reason we're commanded not to lie, is because it represents deceit and deceit requires premeditation - even if it's only for a second. Once the thought enters your mind, the deceit is on your heart. Right there, whether you carry through with the physical act or not, you're condemned. How many times throughout a day, does a deceitful thought enter your mind that you never act on? Regardless, it's sin. I believe that the majority of people in church , including their leaders are intentionally deceived and they preach and learn the only thing they know. God is responsible for creating Satan in order to deceive people.
Satan doesn't know our thoughts, but he can certainly place them there. You and I aren't exempt.
There are the Jim Baker's, Benny Hinn's and Joyce Myers' out there, but they would be crooks whether they were in the ministry or not. And frankly, somewhere inside us we have the potential to be just like them.
Lying does not equal lack of knowledge.
If your wife asks you if she looks pretty in that lime green, pink and orange dress and you know it's hideous, is it a sin to say "Honey, you look beautiful in everything"?
The sin in lying is to profit from deceit. Would you lie to a psychopath on the verge of killing your son, if you knew it would save his life? I wouldn't think twice.
Thank you God for your abundant grace and mercy.
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It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine. It's a solid scriptural approach. It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not. It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.
Sometimes more than others, the person him/herself embodies contradiction to right Doctrine, and Ray is on strong scriptural gound to call them out by name. I don't know whether Hagee or Kennedy ever read these letters, but I know that people steeped in thier teaching have. It takes just a little wisdom to see that is the audience Ray is trying to reach, not these preachers (and others like them) themselves.
The mature here, and certainly Ray, understand that we are no better than anybody. The less mature need the reminders that you, Kat and Dennis have provided. There but for the Grace of God go us. There by the will of God go them.
What Ray does well, we may do poorly at times. God help us.
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This is one of the most interesting discussions I have read so far. I just want to thank all of you for your wisdom and insight. It is sort of strange; I was "called" through the Jimmy Swaggart ministry about 25 years ago. I have attended the garden variety of churches... Free Methodist, Assembly of God, Foursquare, Non-denominational, Lutheran, Catholic, watched TBN and on and on. It's strange or maybe not, but I never felt at "home" in any church or considered myself a part of them. I always thought I was different/my walk with God was different somehow; I was never able to play "church" like everybody else seemed to do and still like myself.
Today I attended a small church in Spokane who in all actuality believes that Jesus will save all. Except for this particular believe and that "tithing" is unscriptural as well, everything else reminded me of a regular church service. I was miserable and could not wait to drive back home and come to the BT forum here. I so very much enjoy being part of a body of believers here. All of you seem to experience the same struggles I have in my walk with God, the same questions, sometimes doubts, the struggle to die to self daily, and that this journey is not a cake walk, but it is difficult. Getting saved is hard; it's the hardest thing I ever had/have to do, just like Ray said. I am so thrilled that I have finally joined this forum; I was "lurking" around in the background for a long time. I just thank God that He brought me here 4 years ago after I asked Him to really show me the Truth.
Grace and Peace to you,
Angie
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Anyone have a good John Hagee joke? :D
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Dennis,
Now that is the quote i can live with, sometimes it get a bit tough when serving but
that is exactly what we are doing. Training to serve the least of these our Brothers
and Sisters as we would have it done to us.
Geo.
WhoAmI, I have a few but my Wife may catch me at it.
noone. LOL :o
great visual metaphor Dennis.
The world thinks it is at a banquet, they are enjoying themselves for the most part but some folks are choking on their food. Some people have even been given very bads meals.
Those who have had their eyes and ears opened....are now waiters and busboys....they know the Chef and they are learning what is really good to eat..... but when they even try to make suggestions .......they are scorned and rediculed and belittled by their own family groups.
beloved
Thanks, but that's not quite what I had in mind Dr. Carol.
My point is we should be servants now as we will be servants in the next life.
This whole exercise is about becoming humble and meek (among other things).
We should not consider ourselves better in any way, because we are not.
Dennis
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WhoamI - not about Hagee, he is too easy to pick on:
Offer made to Adam
God looks down and notices that Adam is all alone while all the animals have companions, so he decides to create a companion for man as well. He comes to see Adam and says to him, "Adam, you are my greatest creation and therefore, I am going to create for you the ultimate companion. She will worship the very ground you walk on, she will long for you and no other, she will be highly intelligent, she will wait on you hand and foot and obey your every command, she will be beautiful, and all it will cost you is an arm and a leg." Thinking for a few moments, Adam replies, "What could I get for a rib?"
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;D :D
Rodger
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JeffH,
Very good post. I know I catch myself alot thinking about how I was lucky to have my eyes opened, and I still have trouble understanding how the blind cannot see... but it is God's will. The pride seeps in too quickly. We are no better than anyone else, so I should not mock or question anyone when they don't see.
I have a long way to go if I am to overcome.
Legoman
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It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine. It's a solid scriptural approach. It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not. It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.
Then why are we calling those people liars? Who gave them the teachings? God? Indirectly, YES. Those people aren't lying, Satan is. They are supposed to believe the things they believe.
You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people. I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.
Jesus exposed the double-minded Pharisees. They knew the truth and were deceitful. To everyone else He showed love. He was compassionate. Pastor Joe and parishioner Sally aren't deceitful in their belief in hell.
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Legoman,
Amen brother.
Jeff
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You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people.
I agree with you 100% here.
"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required"
I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.
But I disagree 100% with you here.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.'
We will all be accountable for our thoughts and actions and beliefs. We have no clue on who God's elect is. It may be someone who believes in hell, it could be a muslim, an athiest, etc, etc. But you can bet they (and we) all will be accountable for their thoughts, actions and beliefs and God will deal with them accordingly.
Craig
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Now you piqued my interest Craig can you further explain you wrote
We have no clue on who God's elect is. It may be someone who believes in hell, it could be a Muslim, an atheist, etc, etc. But you can bet they (and we) all will be accountable for their thoughts, actions and beliefs and God will deal with them accordingly
I thought His elect were those who were faithful followed Christ and died daily and endured until the end. I agree with the fact that all are accountable and that who the elect are not known at this time.
Isn't belief in Hell blaspheming God?, the Muslim, does not love his fellow men, therefore by the word cannot be a follower of Christ? Regarding the atheist...is not this a case of the pot denying he Potter? I am confused.
When I asked about these three groups, I do not want to imply judgement to them, rather that I want Him to remove these things ans actions that displease God from me. I can see that God can bring any of these three to HIM and that they could become the elect or chosen.
Eating from the tree of Good and Evil implies judgement, we should not judge others action only are own..that is something we are to do when our eyes have been opened and the Spirit is working in us .
We have to be constantly aware that it is so easy for satan to puff one up and deceive one into thinking too much of self...it is just another ploy to get 'Self' to sit on the seat that belongs to the Father. That is why these posts are good because they help deflate my own balloons.
beloved
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What I meant was, we don't know where God will pluck out his elect. I would say Paul was elect and he wasn't a sister Theresa before God called on him. What a person believes now or where they live and what religion they are brought up in has no bearing on who God chooses. God will choose whom He will.
I believe most on this forum have been called, but that by no means makes us better than the people I pointed out. Some of them could well be the elect, and we may always be the called.
Craig
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Craig,
You mentioned a VERY DEEP truth that only a few will understand. That's why Ray noted in his papers that we aren't saved in this life. But that salvation is FUTURE TENSE.
May God's Grace Open Our Eyes
Ches
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It's the cornerstone of BT and Ray's approach to teaching the Gospel to expose those who contradict and teach right doctrine. It's a solid scriptural approach. It doesn't matter whether the ones teaching what contradicts are willfully lying or not. It is the teachings themselves that stand in contradiction to the Truth.
Then why are we calling those people liars? Who gave them the teachings? God? Indirectly, YES. Those people aren't lying, Satan is. They are supposed to believe the things they believe.
You and I and everyone else here are MUCH more accountable for our sin than those deceived people. I doubt that, at Judgment time, those people are going to be held accountable for teaching and believing that hell is a place of torture.
Jesus exposed the double-minded Pharisees. They knew the truth and were deceitful. To everyone else He showed love. He was compassionate. Pastor Joe and parishioner Sally aren't deceitful in their belief in hell.
A person is a liar if they speak falsely. Those of the church speak/teach false doctrines. Like Rays says, it doesn't matter how you got dirty, God still is going to give you a bath.
I believe Ray's papers on the 2 churches speaks volumes. If that is not enough for some, then so be it. That is the purpose of this forum to congregate and assemble on what we learned from Ray's teachings. Everything else from this thread has just been personal beliefs with NO reference to scriptures or any of Ray's papers.
Thanks,
Marques
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Douglas started this post and on the surface it may have seem to be kind of a rebuff to Rays teachings
Is there a church around that teaches the truth? Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught? How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?
Assuming that all that come to the forum have read Ray's position on this is seems on the surface to be an absurd question to ask.
We here at the forum and conference want to believe that we assemble and fellowship as the true church but as I looked at this passage and it may me ponder.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus asked peter who He was…
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
We all read it but do we get it? It seems to me that many (especially Catholic and other denominations ) who reads Matthew 16:18 think that peter is the one who the church is being built on.
There is a play on words that makes this happen . Peter means a piece of the rock , a stone, but the Rock being referred to is feminine a huge mass of Rock…substational.
Peter did not come up with that answer the Spirit of God revealed it to him, it is the spirit of God that will bring you to the Rock
Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
The rock they stumble on is Petra (look it up) Not Petros (peters name) The cannot take root because they are not of the spirit, they cannot receive the word. They stumble because they follow mans thoughts and doctrines, not the spirit.
We are to have our foundation on this Rock, not any stones (petros or lithos)
The same Rock mentioned many times in the OT
2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a Rock, save our God? Hebrew for Rock is tsur tsur
Being human we want to be in a physical man made dwelling made of man made stones and we do like following 'talking head' but peter himself tells us we are living stones….stones that are alive because the Spirit reveals to us to the Rock.
That is why Ray can affirmly state that NO CURCH on earth has true doctrine. It is God himself that will construct it…He will select the building material.
You asked “How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?
That is why Jesus told us to ….. Seek the Kingdom…isn’t that what we are all trying to do.
beloved
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Exactly, Beloved, you summed up my thoughts far more eloquently than I did.
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Good Food here, I've enjoyed this thread...
Sharpening Iron with Iron,...Respectfully Challenging,... where Everyone is Edified!
Yes, I'll take second helpings of this kind of fellowship!
Brenda
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Thank you Beloved...that was the best post I have read on the forums in quite sometime. Thank you
Marques
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seems eventually all the church buildings will need to burn, just like the physical temple in 70 ad.
peace
chuckt
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This talk of stones/rocks has got me thinking, oh no not again. About some of the ways Jesus was described as a stone/rock and how he talked about stones/rocks.
In 1st Peter 2; 1-8 we read:
WHEREFORE laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2. As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3. If so ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion (Hebrew: צִיּוֹן, tziyyon Sion is a term that most often designates the Land of Israel and its capital, Jerusalem) A Chief Cornerstone, Elect, Precious, And He That Believeth On Him Shall not Be Confounded.
7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, The Stone Which The builders Disallowed, The Same Is Made The Head Of The Corner,
8. And A Stone Of Stumbling, And A Rock Of Offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
In Isaiah we read:
Isaiah 8:14-15 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
It is interesting that in this passage Jesus is first mentioned as a sanctuary, a place of refuge, a dwelling place, and a place of worship.
He then declares that he would be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence.
He also declares that Jesus would be a gin* and a snare to some. *Side note; a Gin is also a type of block and tackle used to set stones in place when building a building; to lower into place and fix solidly, as the blocks of cut stone in a structure.
Paul also made reference to an Old Testament prophecy.
Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Again, in his first letter to the Corinthians he refers to the same thing.
1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness.
In Psalms 31 verse 2 we read:
Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.
3. For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.
Lastly: The Bible is clear that Jesus is the rock.
Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Just my thoughts.
Seeking to do God's will always,
Douglas
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We will all be accountable for our thoughts and actions and beliefs.
Hebrews 10 (Young's)
16 `This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws on their hearts, and upon their minds I will write them,'
17 and `their sins and their lawlessness I will remember no more;'
18 and where forgiveness of these [is], there is no more offering for sin.
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And your point is?
Once God changes our hearts and minds, He will do as He says. It's what happens between then and now that we are accountable.
Have any of us had this transformation? Do you think this is going to be an easy transformation?
Is His laws totally in our hearts? Is His will written in our minds?
If it has then I'm glad for you, I've got a long way to go.
Craig
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A person is a liar if they speak falsely. Those of the church speak/teach false doctrines. Like Rays says, it doesn't matter how you got dirty, God still is going to give you a bath.
Websters Revised Unabridged
Liar
n. [OE. liere. See Lie to falsify.] A person who knowingly utters falsehood; one who lies.
I believe Ray's papers on the 2 churches speaks volumes. If that is not enough for some, then so be it. That is the purpose of this forum to congregate and assemble on what we learned from Ray's teachings. Everything else from this thread has just been personal beliefs with NO reference to scriptures or any of Ray's papers.
I hope you don't mean that. Rather than using my words, I'll leave you with God's. I'm as grateful for Ray as I am for my own life, but I'll be leaning on Christ as I ponder his writings. Everything I've written in this thread is Scriptural, not my personal opinion. I made the assumption that you knew the verses behind the words.
1 Corinthians 3:
1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.
8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
Jeff
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You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery;' but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:27
I do not think the sin is in looking it is the intent. However it is very difficult to look at something that one would want and not have the intent to posses that thing even for a short period of time.
The small change for me was knowing what God wanted me, and expected me, to do and actually being able to do those things. Everynight when I go to sleep (I think of sleeping as dying) I try to become more transformed by seeking God's will for my life when I awake.
This transformation is always occurring and it is very difficult. I too have a very very long way to go to even be able to participate of the scraps of God's banquet.
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Douglas started this post and on the surface it may have seem to be kind of a rebuff to Rays teachings
Is there a church around that teaches the truth? Can I physically fellowship with anyone in a church where the truth is being taught? How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?
Assuming that all that come to the forum have read Ray's position on this is seems on the surface to be an absurd question to ask.
We here at the forum and conference want to believe that we assemble and fellowship as the true church but as I looked at this passage and it may me ponder.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus asked peter who He was…
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
We all read it but do we get it? It seems to me that many (especially Catholic and other denominations ) who reads Matthew 16:18 think that peter is the one who the church is being built on.
There is a play on words that makes this happen . Peter means a piece of the rock , a stone, but the Rock being referred to is feminine a huge mass of Rock…substational.
Peter did not come up with that answer the Spirit of God revealed it to him, it is the spirit of God that will bring you to the Rock
Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
The rock they stumble on is Petra (look it up) Not Petros (peters name) The cannot take root because they are not of the spirit, they cannot receive the word. They stumble because they follow mans thoughts and doctrines, not the spirit.
We are to have our foundation on this Rock, not any stones (petros or lithos)
The same Rock mentioned many times in the OT
2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a Rock, save our God? Hebrew for Rock is tsur tsur
Being human we want to be in a physical man made dwelling made of man made stones and we do like following 'talking head' but peter himself tells us we are living stones….stones that are alive because the Spirit reveals to us to the Rock.
That is why Ray can affirmly state that NO CURCH on earth has true doctrine. It is God himself that will construct it…He will select the building material.
You asked “How would I find out about such a church if one did exist?
That is why Jesus told us to ….. Seek the Kingdom…isn’t that what we are all trying to do.
beloved
I had to save that as a word doc!! ;D
Antaiwan
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Jeff H's last post was very sad :'( I am sorry that he's leaving.
Kathy
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Where is the true church?
Well that is question with a deep paradox.
Here's the paradox.
If no true church exists then then NO church exists on earth that is of God.
Are you a true believer then?
If you are true believer then the true church exists...as you my dear brothers and sisters make up that spiritual building!
That's the paradox.
I believe in reference to Ray's teachings he was simply stating that it is NOT a building but it is made up and consists of believers like YOU gathering in HIS name.
It is staring you in the face.
Rather then critising the "outer" false churches - every man should look to his own household and see whether he/she be in the faith. That's the true church.
On forgiveness - we of ourselves WILL never make it. It is God's GRACE in CHRIST that puts us into his Kingdom.
digitaladvisor
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I don't quite understand why Jeff is saying he should be removed from the forum.
I also don't quite get his stance?
Is lying ok where it profits good? Doesn't the lying to get the good turns into deceit??
Isn't deceit a product of lying?
When did it become ok to lie even if you didn't know it?? The lie has to be dealt with?
How can one become familiar with the truth if they didn't first know the lie? I wouldn't have known the
lie was a lie except for the truth.
Excuse me, ya'll, I'm just rambling on.
I am confused as to where he was going with this.
Hope he comes back.
Antaiwan
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Jeff H. wrote, "This is a good place, but not always a kind place." I have to agree with him somewhat, there are some great people posting on this forum and then there are the people trying to be cryptic. If one does not explain themselves and the meanings to their posts it comes off as some type of superior spiritual intellectuality.
I am not trying to be depressing, it is just that after having been lied too so many times by "Mainstream Churches" some of us have become a little paranoid. Myself especially, I asked these (original) questions with a sincere desire for a answer, not to be absurd. Many people have given me a great deal to think about, however it is time I stopped posting and went back to lurking on the outer fringes of Bible-truths.com. Please lock this post, it has outlived it's original meaning, and intent, and has caused dissension amongst several members. That was never my original intention. :(
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This is so sad to see... once again I feel sick that we are not able to at least agree to disagree. Instead of getting upset, why don't we ask, "Help me to understand your point of view because I am just not getting it." If we don't get along now, how can we ever serve Christ and His interest? What did Jesus say? "This is how everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Hmmmm... Is it an impossible task? I don't think so!
Grace and Peace,
Angie
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Assuming that all that come to the forum have read Ray's position on this is seems on the surface to be an absurd question to ask
We here at the forum and conference want to believe that we assemble and fellowship as the true church but as I looked at this passage and it may me ponder
Oh my I really have to apologize because this section got pasted in all wrong it should have read
Assuming that all that come to the forum have read Ray's position on this topic on the surface this seems to be absurd question to ask but is it?
When I posted this I was really trying to support you in asking this question , you have made a good point. I began to see more myself. Sometimes I need multiple angles to see a point....I love it when the scriptures reveal more.
I apologize again if I hurt your feelings it was not my intent. Each person that posts takes ray's teachings and inputs a part of himself from their own perspective, we come such varied backgrounds what is simple to see for one is not so simple for another to see. You can read a verse a thousand times and not see all that it has to say.
I hate to type and cannot always read the fonts and when I post I often forget to do spellchecks and proofread sometimes, this correction may not make a difference but I can honestly see how you could have thought I was being sarcastic.
beloved (I spellchecked, apologize and a lot of other words were corrected.)
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why don't we ask, "Help me to understand your point of view because I am just not getting it."
Yep.
That takes gracefulness from both the poster and the 'repliers', however. And in long threads such as this that meander into new territory, it gets especially difficult to suss out who is responding to what.
Add to that, if one encounters a longer POST which resembles a sermon, replies to various points in it CAN seem like a gang-up.
What in regular human interaction can be discussed in a few minutes can take days on in internet forum, which gives misunderstanding more time to breed.
It is with a lot of wisdom that the originators of THIS forum decided on it's purpose. It's not possible to fact-check every thought expressed any more than it is to discern motives behind posts (until it becomes abundantly clear). Through discussion, we CAN clarify points raised AND keep to the purpose of the forum. But we can't do that if either posters or repliers aren't willing to listen, only to preach. With that, we get a Babel. That serves no one.
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Its crazy. Ive been here for almost 3 months but read almost every post and every email and etc etc and never have i seen whats been here lately. And the root of the cause is because Ray held another convention and exposed more that contradict.
One thing i have learned and not just from Rays teachings, but in general, I have learned to give my other cheek when someone slaps me in the other. I learn this outside of here, but what i am seeing lately is that, its not some, its a very few that has just really appalled me. I agree with some of the "new people" who have come here.
I would consider myself pretty new here but i know that what the Lord has shown me, i could easily stand with the "veterans", (but only in humility i would do this, this was added from the original post). It makes me truly sad because i was extremely lonely before knowing there was this place and if i had to chose again between lonely and being in a place with "other like minded believers who criticizes "newbies"", id rather be alone.
Those very few need to check themselves and you know who you are, or better put ask God to show you humility from the knowledge that you have obtained. Ask for a thorn in your flesh to keep you humble.
I could go on and on but I wont.
In all sincerity and in Jesus name,
Anthony
ps And yet another thread will be locked because of silliness
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This first chapter of Hebrews can put things in perspective; When we get upset
because something did not go our way we need to remember what this life of ours
is about. It is about becoming what God Is Creating; a people for His Name.
Geo.
Acts 15:14:
Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Micah 4:5:
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hebrews: 1 v1-14 (Bible In Basic English)
1-In times past the word of God came to our fathers through the prophets, in different parts and in different ways;
2-But now, at the end of these days, it has come to us through his Son, to whom he has given all things for a heritage, and through whom he made the order of the generations;
3-Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;
4-Having become by so much better than the angels, as the name which is his heritage is more noble than theirs.
5-To which of the angels did God say at any time, You are my Son, this day I have given you being? or, I will be his Father, and he will be my Son?
6-And again, when he is sending his only Son into the world, he says, Let all the angels of God give him worship.
7-And of the angels he says, Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire:
8-But of the Son he says, Your seat of power, O God, is for ever and ever; and the rod of your kingdom is a rod of righteousness.
9-You have been a lover of righteousness and a hater of evil; and so God, your God, has put the oil of joy on your head more than on the heads of those who are with you.
10-You, Lord, at the first did put the earth on its base, and the heavens are the works of your hands:
11-They will come to their end; but you are for ever; they will become old as a robe;
12-They will be rolled up like a cloth, even like a robe, and they will be changed: but you are the same and your years will have no end.
13-But of which of the angels has he said at any time, Take your seat at my right hand till I put all those who are against you under your feet?
14-Are they not all helping spirits, who are sent out as servants to those whose heritage will be salvation?
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The thread was locked because as Doug said, it kind of got away from his question.
I'm not sure what happened, the posts on church has gotten testy in the past so that was probably the tipping point.