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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Bradigans on January 31, 2007, 10:48:27 AM
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If the SPIRIT leads, can you out there consider joining a forum? Being in the true CHURCH is 24/7. We in the body of Christ need not only pro and synergistic views of likeminded believers (THOSE TRULY SEEKING GOD'S, THE WORD'S TRUTH), but also antagonistic views (eg bicep and tricep while working together usually work against one another) of likeminded believers (THOSE TRULY SEEKING GOD'S, THE WORD'S TRUTH). That's where Christ's Holy Spirit comes in. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:14 - For the body is not one member, but many. We in THE BODY need not only one anothers pro and synergist views, but also one another's buffering (antagonistic) views. Can somebody help me out there? Oop's maybe I should be saying in here (IN AND THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF COURSE). This is how I believe we need to start coming together. Romans 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
IN HIS LOVE,
Bradford
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Hi Bradford,
I see nothing wrong with visiting other forum if you so desire.
But it seems like you were referring to 'all Christians' as the body of Christ?
In the scripture that were referring to the body of believers,
the writer began the comments to the 'Brothers',
I believer that 'Brother' is speaking only to the chosen few, not all the called.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
The body of Christ are those who abide in Christ and those who keep His commandments and bear fruit.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
v. 2 Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
v. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
v. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
v. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
v.6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
v. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
v. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
v. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
v. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Good morning Bradigans,
Seeking debate or to go out of our way to "show people the light" usually bears no fruit, as a matter of fact in my own experience I have never seen someone's mind changed by challenging their beliefs.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
But it is our duty to be ready to speak if someone sees our example and earnestly seeks answers.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
If you feel led to join this like Kat stated there is nothing at all wrong with belonging to other forums, we only need discern our motivation and to be sure it is motivated by giving Him glory.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (e-Sword is so handy).
Ray has told me many times that he would be very happy to find others with the same beliefs. But so far we have not found any (at least in the English speaking world), and that's after many people providing many links to other sites.
There are the "called" and the "chosen."
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
That's how we know they are of the same body.
Dennis
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Hi Bobby,
Just to explain my above comments better.
I was referring to 'all Christiandom' as not being the body of Christ, at this time.
I thought Bradford was referring to all Christians forums, as being in the body?
I would never suggest that we here are the only people that have the Truth.
I was trying to show how you can deternmine who is of the body of Christ.
Neither do I think Ray is the only one who has the Truth,
he's just the only one I know of.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
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Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
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Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mark 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Whats' the point?
Dennis
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LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For all.
bobby
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LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For all.
bobby
No problem with that, but ALL are not part of the body (yet).
Dennis
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Tis true Dennis but are we to still love them or not. There were non that where a part of the body before Christ was crucufied either but the scripture tells me that He gave himself for all.
Are we to love them any less or are we to love all equally just as Christ loved all equally?
bobby
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Tis true Dennis but are we to still love them or not. There were non that where a part of the body before Christ was crucufied either but the scripture tells me that He gave himself for all.
Are we to love them any less or are we to love all equally just as Christ loved all equally?
bobby
Well, I said no problem. So, yes we are to love all, but I do not love people that blow-up children in their schools (equally) as I love my own daughter, and I don't think God expects me to.
I also said above:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
There are the "called" and the "chosen."
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Dennis
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Hi Bradford,
I see nothing wrong with visiting other forum if you so desire.
But it seems like you were referring to 'all Christians' as the body of Christ?
In the scripture that were referring to the body of believers,
the writer began the comments to the 'Brothers',
I believer that 'Brother' is speaking only to the chosen few, not all the called.
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.
1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
1Co 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function,
The body of Christ are those who abide in Christ and those who keep His commandments and bear fruit.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
v. 2 Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
v. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
v. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
v. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
v.6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
v. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
v. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
v. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
v. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
How could " brother" be speaking only to the chosen, when none of them knew that they were chosen? They were hoping to, but I thot not even Paul considered himself as chosen??
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Tis true Dennis but are we to still love them or not. There were non that where a part of the body before Christ was crucufied either but the scripture tells me that He gave himself for all.
Are we to love them any less or are we to love all equally just as Christ loved all equally?
bobby
Well, I said no problem. So, yes we are to love all, but I do not love people that blow-up children in their schools (equally) as I love my own daughter, and I don't think God expects me to.
I also said above:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
There are the "called" and the "chosen."
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Dennis
agape, only comes from God. God does love the one who blows up others just as much as you. That's why it's grace.
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Tis true Dennis but are we to still love them or not. There were non that where a part of the body before Christ was crucufied either but the scripture tells me that He gave himself for all.
Are we to love them any less or are we to love all equally just as Christ loved all equally?
bobby
Well, I said no problem. So, yes we are to love all, but I do not love people that blow-up children in their schools (equally) as I love my own daughter, and I don't think God expects me to.
I also said above:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
There are the "called" and the "chosen."
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Dennis
agape, only comes from God. God does love the one who blows up others just as much as you. That's why it's grace.
I am well aware that the terrorist are but clay in God's hand, and but for the grace of God go I. But God does not expect us to love the terrorists with the same love as we have for our family members. That's the point I want to make.
I do not consider my neighbors my spiritual brothers. They believe in a false god that tortures unbelievers for all eternity. But I know full well that it could just as easily be me that believes lies (as it was in the past) and they could have the truth. That is why we should love them as ourselves.
There was a topic a long time ago on the subject of love. Turns out there are many types of love in the bible, unfourtunatly, we have only one English word for love that covers all types.
Dennis
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Hi rocky,
I think someone knows that they are seeing the truth and overcoming sin.
I will say I understand things I never did before, I am able to resist temptations like never before.
I know I am not able to do any of these things, but by Him in me.
Paul referrs to those he was teaching as believers, brothers, and chosen.
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
v. 8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
v. 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
I will also add, we may see that we are among the believers now, but we have to endure to the end. Of this we have no guarantee, that we will remain faithful.
Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Rocky that is what I am trying to say. There is scripture for that too:
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Matthew 5:45-47
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 9:10-12
10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
bobby
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Hi rocky,
I think someone knows that they are seeing the truth and overcoming sin.
I will say I understand things I never did before, I am able to resist temptations like never before.
I know I am not able to do any of these things, but by Him in me.
Paul referrs to those he was teaching as believers, brothers, and chosen.
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"
v. 8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
v. 9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
I will also add, we may see that we are among the believers now, but we have to endure to the end. Of this we have no guarantee, that we will remain faithful.
Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
I agree. I know many believers/brothers who see their sin, and cry out for mercy for Christ to heal them, yet don't believe everything that Ray teaches, or for that matter haven't been enlightened yet to UR. We are not special because we have had our eyes opened to UR, we are special because we see our sin, and our inability to overcome it, by the grace of God.
I desire mercy not sacrifice. That to me is the key. When the light shines, and we have gotten to the end of self effort to gain rightiousness, and cry out for mercy; what a great place to be.
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While it is true God is not a respector of persons and their works on their own merit He does love some more than others,
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother?
saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness93 with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
This seems to say not all are loved equally in this age.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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While it is true God is not a respector of persons and their works on their own merit He does love some more than others,
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother?
saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness93 with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
This seems to say not all are loved equally in this age.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
I think this comes down to relative versus absolute again.
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Joe,
If 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Could the word HATE be a mis-translation?
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Hi Bobby,
Yes, I can see the King James overstated or mistranslated the word, Ray has taught this verse as actually being "loved less" which still shows varying degrees of God's love for those in this age.
G3404
μισέω
miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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This seems to say not all are loved equally in this age.
Joe I am surprised you would even make a statement like that!!!!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I thought that reconciliation was for all.Is that not what the bible truths teaches???
bobby
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Bobby, perhaps you should read this again: http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
Dennis
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Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
I do not see where in Ray's paper that Christ hated them!!!
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This seems to say not all are loved equally in this age.
Joe I am surprised you would even make a statement like that!!!!
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I thought that reconciliation was for all.Is that not what the bible truths teaches???
bobby
Bobby, I'm going to chime in here.
Earlier, I think in this thread, perhaps another it was shown that the word original word for love had several meanings in the original language, unfortunatly only one in our language. Notice Joe said "In this age" Obviously God loves everybody and in the end "all in all" and the same. But in this age God is working with the "elect" whoever they may be and in turn shows more "love/like" toward them. Just as he did with Esau and Jacob.
We can try as we might to love as God loves, but our carnal beast won't let it happen (the true Godly love). Though overtime, as we overcome and become more and more Christ in us, the love and compassion we show will also grow. We won't reach perfection in this age. Though we should strive for it.
I hope I'm clear to folks, but if not bear with me.
Craig
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Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
I do not see where in Ray's paper that Christ hated them!!!
And where do you see in this thread, that anyone said Christ "hated" anyone? ??? ???
Craig
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Craig the word hate was brought up in this thread and then I was imediately directed to Ray's paper on the Hipocrite thing. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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Show it to me? ???
I saw the verse from scripture that "Esua I hated"
But I do not see where anyone said Christ hated anyone or even infered that. Joe even gave the reference to that verse as to mean "love-less"
Let's don't put words in others mouths.
Craig
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Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
I do not see where in Ray's paper that Christ hated them!!!
No one said that.
Bobby, in this age of the flesh God made vessels for honor and dishonor. We love the vessels of dishonor because they have no choice but to be what God made them. But we do not love their fruits/what they produce or what they are/hold. We are not required to love evil.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Evil people will eventually be equal and equally loved, but not in this age.
Dennis
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This would be a good article to read: http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm
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Hi Rocky,
I know many believers/brothers who see their sin, and cry out for mercy for Christ to heal them, yet don't believe everything that Ray teaches, or for that matter haven't been enlightened yet to UR.
What I 'm trying to say by believers, is not all the called who have some truth, but those that are made new.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
I took some excerpts from Ray's part 8 LoF, to help explain what I trying to say.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------------------------------
ARE YOU "CALLED AND CHOSEN" OR JUST "CALLED?"
Let me first state that there is an order in the process of being called to Sonship. First you are called, and then you are chosen from among the called. And we have already learned that the "chosen" are also the "few." Quite frankly, not unlike a casting call. Many are called to come to the casting rehearsal, but only a relative few will be chosen for the actual performance. Which are you? I will not be your personal judge, however, as we progress in this series, you will be confronted with dozens of Scriptures by which you can JUDGE YOURSELF by the aid of God’s Spirit.
But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).
Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.
When Jesus says that,
"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),
He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!
The word "overcometh" as used in the KJV is a good word and descriptive of what we are to do. However, "conquers" is a more precise word, and adds the dimension of being "victorious," as in battle, as our Christian walk is most definitely a battle.
Notice what "overcomers or conquerers" in the Seven Churches are promised:
"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).
"He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death" (Ver. 11).
That’s because they now have CHRIST, the "tree of life Who abolishes death."
Those who are being judged NOW, will not go through the lake of fire judgment, or be hurt by the second death.
"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).
That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Dennis,
You do make a good point. I have not reached that point to where I can love all equally nor can imagine myself getting to that point.
911 tore at my heart becuase 2 special and dear friends of my family died in those towers. I am ashamed to still admit that I feel hatred and anything but love to those people who caused this to happen. I have been praying in the meantime to learn to love them.
I guess that I have to say that at least I am praying that God feels my heart with such love that one of these days I can say I love them and forgive them.
Dennis thanks for sharing your point of view. I had been feeling pretty rough these past few weeks when the 911 topic was introduced and Ray wrote his paper. I guess I had not yet finished the grieving process. I kinda am still numb with shock and it has been a couple of years since that event. Guess I got work to do.
I cannot imagane as you do, loving these who destroy lives with the love that I feel for my precious son and my dear husband. Maybe one of these days that will change, but until that day comes I shall pray for a heart that is capable of loving all as God loves everyone. And man oh man do I have a very long way to go.
Sincerely,
Anne C. Mcguire
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Ok here's a question and I would like an honest answer.
Are there any here at this forum that you, Dennis or Joe or anyone for that matter that you have different degrees of love for those here at the forum and for those who left the forum.Now keep in mind that none of us really know that we are the elect. Am I correct on that or not?
before I came OUT OF HER this kind of love thing was preached from the pulpit. I fell for it then but I will not fall for that now. There are too many scriptures that state that God is love and I do not believe He limits His love according to the way the world looks at love.God is perfect and therefore His love is perfect. The same yesterday,today, and for the ages.
I am a little shocked here to think that anyone would think that God has degrees of love for all.If all is done according to His will, is it not done in love(His LOVE for all) and some will realize it now and some will realize it then. I do believe that all those who are LOVED by God will see this and those who thought he did not love them now will be elated at His LOVE for them from the beginning at the end of the age.
To me to even think that the elect are loved more than the called or those not dragged to Him yet makes me feel a little depressed.
Why would Christ tell us to love our enemies but then tell us that well I love this one a little bit more than this one.
If Ray has done a paper on this one I would love to read it!!! Mercy and Love are 2 different things. Even wicked people can show mercy.
bobby
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Anne I am seeing in this thread that ALL of us have a long way to go. Nothing is impossible with God. That is one of the biggest desires I have and that is to love ALL just as Christ did and does.
bobby
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Can anyone picture this in their minds. Christ in the temple with the money changers.
John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 15And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; 16And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
Now can you picture this?
Christ saying, "I love you"...WACK, "and I love you too"... SMASH, "see this whip, I love you all" ...CRASH!
Not the picture I see.....
He had a righteous anger against them, and I'm sure his words where filled with righteous anger also.
Unfortunatly our anger is very rarely righteous in nature...the "beast within" lives.
Craig
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The wrath of God is against ungodliness of men (romans 1), not the man themselves. Essau in my opinion is a similtude of the ungodliness. God hates the ungodliness, not the man.
just my 2 cents.
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Ok here's a question and I would like an honest answer.
I will answer but first answer the question that I asked of you earlier
Show it to me? ???
I saw the verse from scripture that "Esua I hated"
But I do not see where anyone said Christ hated anyone or even infered that. Joe even gave the reference to that verse as to mean "love-less"
Let's don't put words in others mouths.
Craig
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Rocky it warms my heart to know that you are seeing it the way God is helping me to see it. I do not feel so alone on this and I thank you brother.
bobby
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Rocky it warms my heart to know that you are seeing it the way God is helping me to see it. I do not feel so alone on this and I thank you brother.
bobby
5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
for me, I don't think this verse is just talking about the chosen. I think it is no man.
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1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Craig refresh my memory here. what question was that?
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1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Craig refresh my memory here. what question was that?
Quit skirtting the question you know what I asked, and then you post a scripture that was never on the thread until you posted it.
Now show me where anyone said Christ "hated" anyone.
You are changing the subject, but I want that accusation answered.
Craig
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International Standrad Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) from eSword.
I. Definition: Love
luv (אהב, 'āhēbh, אהבה, 'ahăbhāh, noun; φιλέω, philéō, ἀγαπάω, agapáō, verb; ἀγάπη, agápē, noun):
While the Hebrew and Greek words for “love” have various shades and intensities of meaning, they may be summed up in some such definition as this: Love, whether used of God or man, is an earnest and anxious desire for and an active and beneficent interest in the well-being of the one loved. Different degrees and manifestations of this affection are recognized in the Scriptures according to the circumstances and relations of life, e.g. the expression of love as between husband and wife, parent and child, brethren according to the flesh, and according to grace; between friend and enemy, and, finally, between God and man. It must not be overlooked, however, that the fundamental idea of love as expressed in the definition of it is never absent in any one of these relations of life, even though the manifestation thereof may differ according to the circumstances and relations.
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I thought an outside source might be of some help.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Craig I am not skirrting the question. I am talking about love and then posted was God HATING Esau. I was then directed to read the Hipocrite paper at the bible truths site and I did not see any reference to hate in that article. That is what I ment.
Take what ever way you wish but I was not accusing anyone of anything.
Now if that answer is not good enough for you well then I am sorry about your luck.
bobby
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I am not like many on the forum who know so much about the scriptures and I don't know how to say things the right way. I am encouraged from reading all the information and all from so many.I learn so much from ya'll. I think we are all just trying to do our best to live as Jesus would want us to. I don't think I will ever be able to love like Jesus did while on this earth. All I can do is try to follow the model of love that Jesus showed to us. Do I fail? You bet! I had to speak privately with my friend last week about something I said that had hurt someone's feelings. That someone was a family member. I have so few family members still living that the ones I have are so precious to me and the knowledge that I had unintentionally caused pain was tearing me up inside. My friend came through for me again and helped me quit beating myself up and that is a testament of the love of a friend!
Bobby, my friend, you are never alone. God knows your kind and loving heart and He knows that all you want to do is practice what the Bible says. You are blessed , my friend, and we are all blessed to know you! Much love, Jennie
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Man, that was a flurry of activity.
It is amazing how that beast in us can make us flare up and start reasoning with our own understanding. We need to realize that it is Christ in us that will bring us to salvation. He works from the inside/out.
We should take heed lest we fall because no one is assured of being chosen unless we are faithful to the end.
We cannot judge someone in another forum until we get close enough to them to see their fruits. It is all of God and not of us. We cannot love someone else better than our families of ourselves, but Christ in us can and does. How can God love the Christ in me more than he loves the Christ in my next door neighbor? It is the same Christ.
If I show favor to my son on friday night and do not show favor to my daughter on friday night, it does not mean I love my daughter less than I love my son. Her time of favor may come on saturday night, but I love her the same as my son. It really is all a matter of the heart. Focus on God and seek Him with all of your heart then do what your heart desires. That appears to me to be at the heart of Ray's teachings.
Hope I am helping this situation and not hurting. I started to stay on the side lines but I had to put my foot in and probably did.
God loves you all and I do too.
CIY
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While it is true God is not a respector of persons and their works on their own merit He does love some more than others,
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother?
saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And I hated (loved less) Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness93 with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
This seems to say not all are loved equally in this age.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
Bobby,
There are unbelievers, the called and the chosen, who are receiving the grace of His love in this age? Are they not receiving the bounty of His love (through chastisement) now, or in their natural lives whatever century they lived in? The rest of humanity will be brought to Him in the next age, even Esau!
Sometimes I think Universal Salvation should be termed Ultimately Saved, either in this age or the next.
As far as the verses I quoted they are not my words but the words of the Lord through Malachi and Paul.
There are more where they came from. ;)
His Peace and Wisdom to you Brother,
Joe
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Does anyone want to comment on Romans 9?
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THE GREEK DEFINITIONS OF 'LOVE':
1. AGAPE'-(UNCONDITIONAL LOVE) (AS IN: YESHUA HAS LOVED EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT GOD EVER CREATED, ENOUGH TO DIE FOR EACH ONE OF THEM, WITH NO STRINGS ATTATCHED)
2-PHILEO-(FRIENDSHIP LOVE)- (THE LOVE THAT FRIENDS SHARE)
3-STORGE'-(FAMILY/RELATIVES TYPE OF LOVE)- (MY LOVE FOR MY IMMEDIATE AND EXTENDED FAMILY RELATIVES)
4-EROS- (SEXUAL LOVE)- (HUSBAND AND WIFE'S PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP/SEXUAL)
I PRAY THAT THIS SHEDS SOME LIGHT TO THIS THREAD. :)
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Thanks for posting that 'Susan, I tried but couldn't find it. 8)
Craig
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CRAIG, YOUR'E WLECOME; AS THIS WAS FROM MEMORY; I ALWAYS FORGET TO USE E-SWORD.LOL ;)
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Are we sure we can trust your memory, because you sure can't trust mine. :D
Craig
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Does anyone want to comment on Romans 9?
Relative versus absolute. God is love, that's his essence. He can't hate, that's an absolute. Love can't hate.
In the relative, he hates. He hates the ungodliness of men. That's how he has determined it to happen. Mercy for some now, Mercy later for all. Love and grace are his essence. I Corinth 13 is the absolute. Romans 9 is how he works with man and how we can understand.
Through destruction of the ungodliness, the spirit (what God loves) is saved.
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How can God love the Christ in me more than he loves the Christ in my next door neighbor? It is the same Christ.
This just did not sound right to me so I contacted Ray and got some help as I cannot always express myself.
It is amazing how that beast in us can make us flare up and start reasoning with our own understanding. We need to realize that it is Christ in us that will bring us to salvation. He works from the inside/out.
We should take heed lest we fall because no one is assured of being chosen unless we are faithful to the end.
We cannot judge someone in another forum until we get close enough to them to see their fruits.
There is a giant difference in judging a person and judging what a person may say or do. Ray judges what other people say and do all day long. It is part of the "exposing those who contradict." We expose those who contradict BECAUSE of their contradictions. We do not judge their personality or character or lack thereof.
It is all of God and not of us. We cannot love someone else better than our families of ourselves, but Christ in us can and does.
Certainly "all is of God," but Christ in us does not cause us to love terrorists "better" than Christ in us causes us to loves our own famility. That's absurd. Even Jesus showed greater affection toward John than any of the other Apostles. We are not commanded to love our enemies (Matt. 5:44) with the same love that we are commanded to love our Lord (I Cor. 16:22).
How can God love the Christ in me more than he loves the Christ in my next door neighbor? It is the same Christ.
That is a nonsensical rhetorical question. Where do we hear of such phrases as "God loves the Christ in us?" Does that mean God ONLY loves the Christ in us, but not us? Does that mean that we are EQUAL in righteousness and character and love to the "Christ in us?" The Corinthian Church came behind in no spiritual gift, and yet Paul says they were "yet carnal," and the "carnal mind is emnity against God" (Rom. 8:7).
Dennis (with a lot of help from Ray)
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THE GREEK DEFINITIONS OF 'LOVE':
1. AGAPE'-(UNCONDITIONAL LOVE) (AS IN: YESHUA HAS LOVED EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT GOD EVER CREATED, ENOUGH TO DIE FOR EACH ONE OF THEM, WITH NO STRINGS ATTATCHED)
2-PHILEO-(FRIENDSHIP LOVE)- (THE LOVE THAT FRIENDS SHARE)
3-STORGE'-(FAMILY/RELATIVES TYPE OF LOVE)- (MY LOVE FOR MY IMMEDIATE AND EXTENDED FAMILY RELATIVES)
4-EROS- (SEXUAL LOVE)- (HUSBAND AND WIFE'S PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP/SEXUAL)
I PRAY THAT THIS SHEDS SOME LIGHT TO THIS THREAD. :)
I'm pretty sure #1 and #2 should swap definitions. But I could be wrong.
Dennis
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THE GREEK DEFINITIONS OF 'LOVE':
1. AGAPE'-(UNCONDITIONAL LOVE) (AS IN: YESHUA HAS LOVED EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT GOD EVER CREATED, ENOUGH TO DIE FOR EACH ONE OF THEM, WITH NO STRINGS ATTATCHED)
2-PHILEO-(FRIENDSHIP LOVE)- (THE LOVE THAT FRIENDS SHARE)
3-STORGE'-(FAMILY/RELATIVES TYPE OF LOVE)- (MY LOVE FOR MY IMMEDIATE AND EXTENDED FAMILY RELATIVES)
4-EROS- (SEXUAL LOVE)- (HUSBAND AND WIFE'S PHYSICAL RELATIONSHIP/SEXUAL)
I PRAY THAT THIS SHEDS SOME LIGHT TO THIS THREAD. :)
I'm pretty sure #1 and #2 should swap definitions. But I could be wrong.
Dennis
the definitions posted are correct for number 1 and 2.
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Dennis, the way I wrote it are the true and accurate defintions of the word 'love' in the Greek.. :)
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I asked Ray and he said agape was the lessor but most do not know this.
Agape is a more formal type of respect/love.
Dennis
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Agape has always meant the highest or 'unconditional' type of love (example: to where someone would lay down his life for another; wether stranger of a friend of Jesus.) I have NEVER heard in all of my years that there was any higher love than the UNCONDITIONAL love. Yes, AGAPE is a respectful love. Friendship is a wonderful thing, but, I would rather have the unconditional love that Jesus offers to me in order to have eternal life, than for HIM to just be my friend while in this flesh and HE do nothing to save me in the end. I understand that this is not used as often as the others, but, to me when it is used it is so much more meaningful to me. ;)
Interesting; where did Ray get his info from? I had just not heard that take on 'Agape'' before.
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Ray says someday he will write on this subject.
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Brothers and sisters,
This whole thread reminds me of the garden of Eden. God told Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Right and wrong! Yet all the time, they ignored the Tree of Life. My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts. I don't think we will ever come to an agreement on this subject when we try to out scripture each other. These last two major threads have obviously caused some hurt among us and I feel that it time for us to pull back a little and let it rest. I don't mean it to anybody in particular for we are all members of His body. I say all this in love.
Your brother in Him,
Dwight
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Dwight,
I would have to agree with you on this one. This thread too has the possiblity of getting very explosive like the marraige threads.
We have had a bad day on the forum yesterday and I do not wish to see it repeated.
One word to post to this post, and that is discernment.
Good post by the way.
Susan,
I had heard that agape too was the highest form of love. It will be interesting to see what Ray is thinking about.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Dennis
The following is what I meant for my post to say and was based on.
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that theyt might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all the thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Proverbs 3:5-6
"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1:27
"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matthew 24:13
"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew7:20
"I am the vine, ye are the branches; He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John15:5
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10
Luke 15:11-32 the parable of the lost son God favors one at one time and the other at another time.
"As a man thinketh in his heart so is he." Proverbs 23:7a
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13
"Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." Psalms 37:4
"For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God." John 16:27
John 16:20-26 Jesus' prayer for all of us
I understand that John says that Jesus loved him in John 21:20 but I do not think that means as an exclusion of loving others because Mark uses the exact same words in chapter 10:21 about the rich young ruler.
I really was only trying to bring some light to the thread which seemed to me to be getting a little out of hand. I am sorry I if I offended you. I study and have been studying Ray's papers, emails, and audios for a year now. I find much joy in it. I hope to attend a gathering sometime in the future.
CIY
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This was simply a message i sent to a potential brother. i'm sorry i didn't clarify. i was just sharing with forum, and hoping for prayer (THE HOLY SPIRIT LEADING). i apologize for not clarifying...
IN HIS LOVE,
Bradford
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Hi all,
I have been watching this post, and i to am a bit confused about God loving one more over another. Ray has taught before, that the elect do not feel Gods wrath, and that to me shows that God must have some sort of "favouritism" for the elect, in that He doesn't pour out His wrath on them.
Now, that might just mean that the elect need less "chastising" than the called? It doesn't to me, actually mean that God loves them less. We could have 2 children, one obedient one disobedient....the disobedient child will probably feel our wrath....doesn't mean we love that child less.
Ray has used these scriptures to show who receives Gods wrath:
"Let NO MAN DECEIVE YOU with vain words: for because of these things [vain words of deceiving men upon the called children] comes THE WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience" (Eph. 5:6).
and the elect gets this advice(warning):
"BE NOT YE [God’s Elect] therefore PARTAKERS WITH THEM" ! ! ! (eph 5:7)
But does this say He loves us more?
The elect are being judged now and the rest will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. Then, the elect will rule with HIM!
This to me shows God trusts the obdedient, the elect to rule with Him, Is that favouritism ?? More love for them than another? Or wisdom??
My belief is, the elect are the favored children of God, but that He loves all men. What do others think?
God Bless You all
Sandie
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Don't know if I've learned anything here or not ???
But its certainly been an interesting thread. :D
Peace to all
Iris
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1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
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My belief is, the elect are the favored children of God, but that He loves all men. What do others think?
God Bless You all
Sandie
Hi Sandie,
That is a beautiful way to put it, the Lord does (at this time) favor some (chosen) over others and will use His "favored" His Elect to bring ALL to Him.
Did not get any response to my two previous references to Romans 9 but let's try one more time, maybe 3 is the charm;
Romans 9 (Amplified Bible)
11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],
12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).
14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!
15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.
16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.
18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?
20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?
22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?(I)
23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
So, in these scriptures God is showing us He uses who He chooses to magnify His power. Wether its hardening hearts or building His elect, His will is done. It's like in Job when God showed Job the foolishness of his (jobs) pride, when job thought that it was his will , God showed him that He is the potter, He has mercy with whom He wills.
(Job 10:9) Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?
and in Isa
isa 64:8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
and in Jer
(I(Jer 18:4) And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
(Jer 18:5) Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
(Jer 18:6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
So really, who are we to ask whom God loves more?? He is bringing about His will through using all men in His plan. We all are clay pots made by Him the potter, all marred some more than others at His hand.
God is good :)
Sandie
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Does favortism mean less love. I guess for me, that is the question. I don't think so. At times I favor one kid over another, based on reasons I deem necessary. My love doesn't change for them. I dont think God's love can have degrees of love, like I love my favored/graced child 100 degrees, and my hardened child 1 degree. So in our daily walk, are we to love others less than others. If God's spirit is in us, no; but we can favor like minded individuals over non like individuals, hopefully discerned not by the flesh but my the spirit.
I think the discussion we had earlier re; prodigal son is a good example. The elder son was less favored, but still had all of God's love, "everything I have is yours".
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Just so I am not misunderstood with what I have posted and causing any strife, I agree with Joe, Sandie, Bobby, and Rocky. I love Ecclesiastes and the following verses in chapter 9 seem to deal with God's timing in people's lives.
1For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
2All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
CIY
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Okay, everyone has said their piece and any further discussion would not serve this forum.
Time to lock this topic.
Dennis
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I for one can not claim to know the mind of God when it comes to who or why He loves, favors, chooses, elects, selects one over the other but we can see all through scripture that this is indeed the case, ultimately all will be Sons and Daughters that we can agree on but in the OT the NT we see examples of this (favoring) continually and consistantly.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe