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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on March 28, 2006, 09:43:29 PM
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I know Eutychus (Chuck) has expressed interest in some scientific theories as have I, although the training in physics or micro biology or any discipline has been less than limited for me I do enjoy science, I enjoy reading books on almost any subject relating to it.
I am fascinated by how the world kneels at the alter of science as if it is the final word even though the premises that were once thought to be absolute are found out to be over time, flawed.
Ptolemy's gravity had objects descending at a speed relative to weight, Newton disproved that theory after it was accepted as conventional wisdom for more than a millenium.
When I was in the early part of my elementary school career early 60's our science book stated the universe was infinite and always existed. The bible's version of it being spoken into existence was ridiculed but in a decade or so the Big Bang Theory gained prominence which in reality is much closer to the bible version than always there, never ends.
There is a conventional wisdom existing now that is originally from Einstein that traveling faster than light is impossible as the mass of the object would stretch and expand to the point of oblivion. So at this point in time the speed of light is the max, but is it? What about the speed of gravity? What if the sun just disappeared, exploded, imploded, etc. but the light went out, the heat disipated and it vanished. How long would it be before we on earth would see everything darken, feel the cold? About 8 1/2 minutes or so. Ok, now how long would it take for the earth to fly out of it's orbit and begin to traject into a straight line? Immediately. So, is the speed of light the limit, or is there something else?
Joe
P.S. Don't believe for a second I was smart enough to come up with this on my own, I was perusing another book and thought it was very interesting.
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Oh, for a second there I thought you were smart enough to come up with that on your own there Joe. :wink:
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Sorin, I hope I haven't severely trashed my standing with you! :-k
Joe
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Sorin, I hope I haven't severely trashed my standing with you! :-k
Joe
No, not at all. I was just messin' with ya. :)
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My brain doesn't work well in science or math. But I do appreciate all those who have that gift. I have been to a number of Creation Science seminars and one thing that I find interesting about evolution is they never explain how an animal can survive in its transitory stages. In other words, how does a bird, that is turning into an alligator, live with a wing and a foot? what does this bizarre creature eat? It can't fly and it can't walk. I saw a picture of this creature and it just made me laugh that people can believe anything as long as it's not God.
I always liked the story about the emperor who had no clothes. It just shows how gullible people are and how willing they are to let the "experts" think for them.
I hope more of you science people can help us with some of these things.
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Sorin, I hope I haven't severely trashed my standing with you! :-k
Joe
No, not at all. I was just messin' with ya. :)
\:D/
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Light has mass and is effected by gravity. Light exsist as both a partical and a wave. There are theories that say that it is a possibility that the same may be true of gravity.
As far as faster than light travel....I think it is a possibility. However, I believe that it will be many many many years before we ever discover how to do it in this world.
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My brain doesn't work well in science or math. But I do appreciate all those who have that gift. I have been to a number of Creation Science seminars and one thing that I find interesting about evolution is they never explain how an animal can survive in its transitory stages. In other words, how does a bird, that is turning into an alligator, live with a wing and a foot? what does this bizarre creature eat? It can't fly and it can't walk. I saw a picture of this creature and it just made me laugh that people can believe anything as long as it's not God.
I always liked the story about the emperor who had no clothes. It just shows how gullible people are and how willing they are to let the "experts" think for them.
I hope more of you science people can help us with some of these things.
Hi Debra, I remember reading a book a while back that disputed evolution and what the author termed "junk science" due to the fact that not one part of the theory could be proven in a lab setting.
He went on to say that when a frog turns into a prince in a flash, it is a fairy tale but if a frog turns into a prince through the muddy waters of billions of years it is science. The incalculable thought of billions of years is a bit much for the human mind to comprehend and has the power to confuse any scenario into being plausable.
Where in nature have we seen positive mutations, more commonly referred to as birth defects? When someone is born with an extra finger or something it generally does not function properly, also most of the birth defects are not transferable to the subsequent generations although there are cases of genetic transfer of some conditions or diseases being transferred to offspring, but these cases do not show an upward mobility or an improvement of the species.
We can also get into the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics or the Law of Entropy.........nah, that can wait.
Joe
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Hello Joe,
Interesting question.
As an engineer in the scientific community I rely on the "Laws of Physics" or better stated "Cause and effect" to do my work. One of the basic precepts of physics is that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but only converted into energy. Gravity is a function of mass, the more the mass, the more the gravity. In order for any object to lose all gravity it would have to lose all mass. What your question proposes is that if an object would lose all gravity in an instant, how long would it take for the earth to feel the effect? If a large amount of the mass of the sun was instantly be converted into energy, which it does all the time by the way, and the sun exploded, the explosion would send chunks of mass scattering in all directions at some finite velocity less than the speed of light. The earth would then be essentially pulled in many directions simultaneously toward each of the sun fragments until all these pieces were so far away that they had no effect on the earth anymore. Of course this is all academic since if the sun blew up it would take the earth with it. The only way the sun could ever lose all its mass instantly is if God performed a miracle, which I define as sovereignly breaking the connection between cause and effect, and just spoke the sun out of existance.
I hope this helps a little, let me know if I can shed any more light on this (pun intended)
Mark
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Joe,
In my previous post I made the statement that matter can be converted into energy. Although this can be observed in the macro world, it is not true in the micro world. In truth, in any process, mass in conserved and energy is conserved. What we observe is the conversion of one type of matter into another and the conversion of one type of energy into another, but there is still the same amount of mass as before as well as the same amount of energy.
Gravity is an interesting subject, and is being studied in depth by the scientific community with huge experiments. What is being searched for is the Graviton. Current theory is that gravity acts like a wave and travels at the speed of light.
Mark
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Joe,
In my previous post I made the statement that matter can be converted into energy. Although this can be observed in the macro world, it is not true in the micro world. In truth, in any process, mass in conserved and energy is conserved. What we observe is the conversion of one type of matter into another and the conversion of one type of energy into another, but there is still the same amount of mass as before as well as the same amount of energy.
Gravity is an interesting subject, and is being studied in depth by the scientific community with huge experiments. What is being searched for is the Graviton. Current theory is that gravity acts like a wave and travels at the speed of light.
Mark
Mark, thank you for the responses, I defer to your obviously deeper understanding of the subject matter as I am strictly an amateur with an interest in all of His creation.
Back to my original question, since the pros and cons of traveling at the speed of light for mankind is to this point only theory and again not provable in lab conditions let me pose my original question as strictly hypothetical, if the sun disappeared without expolding but retracted or became a Quasar or black hole you are saying the effect would be an 8 1/2 minute delay and not instantanious? That the effect of the sun's former gravity would still effect the outer planets for months and not disturb their orbits?
Please forgive my neophyte terminology or analogies and I do appreciate your patience.
Thanks,
Joe
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the reason time travel is impossible is because time is how God brings about his purpose :wink:
the concept of a being NOT bound by time OR space is mind boggling.
cool thread, Jesus is master scientist :wink:
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http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
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Joe,
The only scientific answer I can give at this time is that according to "current theory" is that it would take as long for the gravity to abate as it would take for the light to cease. Scientists continue to hold to the theory that nothing in the observable physical realm travels faster than light. The current theories of special and general relativity are established based on this assumption.
Quasars and black holes are very massive objects and have so much gravity that even light cannot escape. The real problem in trying to establish an answer to your question is how to remove an object with gravity instantly. It would take infinite energy to to do so.
Consider this: according to relativity theory, the faster an object travels, the more massive it becomes and time proceeds more slowly for the object as observed from the outside. If I could travel at the speed of light, time would appear normal for me but in actuality it would stop. What that would mean is that I could travel between two distant objects in zero time. That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Mark
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Time travel -
Forward is easy, we are doing it right now.
Backwards I believe is not possible because it would violate the conservation of mass and energy. If I could travel backwards to yesterday, my yesterday self would be there and my today self would also be there at the same time. This would add my current mass to yesterday thus increasing the mass of the universe just a bit. Not allowed by current theory. If I sent 1000 gallons of gasoline backwards to yesterday it would increase the energy of the universe. Also not permitted, but it sure would solve the energy crisis.
Mark
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That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Amazing!! :shock:
So that's how God does it. :-k
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Time travel -
Forward is easy, we are doing it right now.
Backwards I believe is not possible because it would violate the conservation of mass and energy. If I could travel backwards to yesterday, my yesterday self would be there and my today self would also be there at the same time. This would add my current mass to yesterday thus increasing the mass of the universe just a bit. Not allowed by current theory. If I sent 1000 gallons of gasoline backwards to yesterday it would increase the energy of the universe. Also not permitted, but it sure would solve the energy crisis.
Mark
thats cool i love this type of stuff.
you see the movie, "freqency" ?
no time travel mass wise but radio waves transmitted 30 yr span of time.
cool movie
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Hello Sorin,
As far as I'm concerned, God does what He does because He is God and it is His nature.
He is by nature:
Eternal
All powerful
All knowing
Everywhere
Self Existant
In control
Wise beyond measure
Unlimited
LOVE
etc., etc.
Mark
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Consider this: according to relativity theory, the faster an object travels, the more massive it becomes and time proceeds more slowly for the object as observed from the outside. If I could travel at the speed of light, time would appear normal for me but in actuality it would stop. What that would mean is that I could travel between two distant objects in zero time. That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Mark
If you left earth traveling to a planet 1 million light years away at the speed of light, wouldn't it be that you would arrive at your destination the same age as you left physically, but whatever was left of earth would be a million years older?
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Consider this: according to relativity theory, the faster an object travels, the more massive it becomes and time proceeds more slowly for the object as observed from the outside. If I could travel at the speed of light, time would appear normal for me but in actuality it would stop. What that would mean is that I could travel between two distant objects in zero time. That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Mark
If you left earth traveling to a planet 1 million light years away at the speed of light, wouldn't it be that you would arrive at your destination the same age as you left physically, but whatever was left of earth would be a million years older?
it would take a million yrs to reach a planet a million light yrs away, even if you travelled at the speed of light ;-]
and the planet you reach would be a million yrs older than when you left!!
what we see is not what is there.
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You speak correctly, at least based on today's knowledge. Everything would be older, but based on the travelers perception, virtually no time would have elapsed.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this is starting to give me a brain cramp.
Mark
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You speak correctly, at least based on today's knowledge. Everything would be older, but based on the travelers perception, virtually no time would have elapsed.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this is starting to give me a brain cramp.
Mark
no cramps here.
hard one, we look at the planet through a telescope, take off a million yrs later we reach that planet, the planet is a million yrs older but we arnt
heee heeee heee daaaaaaang
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I know Eutychus (Chuck) has expressed interest in some scientific theories as have I, although the training in physics or micro biology or any discipline has been less than limited for me I do enjoy science, I enjoy reading books on almost any subject relating to it.
I am fascinated by how the world kneels at the alter of science as if it is the final word even though the premises that were once thought to be absolute are found out to be over time, flawed.
Ptolemy's gravity had objects descending at a speed relative to weight, Newton disproved that theory after it was accepted as conventional wisdom for more than a millenium.
When I was in the early part of my elementary school career early 60's our science book stated the universe was infinite and always existed. The bible's version of it being spoken into existence was ridiculed but in a decade or so the Big Bang Theory gained prominence which in reality is much closer to the bible version than always there, never ends.
There is a conventional wisdom existing now that is originally from Einstein that traveling faster than light is impossible as the mass of the object would stretch and expand to the point of oblivion. So at this point in time the speed of light is the max, but is it? What about the speed of gravity? What if the sun just disappeared, exploded, imploded, etc. but the light went out, the heat disipated and it vanished. How long would it be before we on earth would see everything darken, feel the cold? About 8 1/2 minutes or so. Ok, now how long would it take for the earth to fly out of it's orbit and begin to traject into a straight line? Immediately. So, is the speed of light the limit, or is there something else?
Joe
P.S. Don't believe for a second I was smart enough to come up with this on my own, I was perusing another book and thought it was very interesting.
Oh I love science
Relativity is a very interesting theory E = MC ^2 mean energy = ( mass * the speed of light)squared. It basically ties energy to matter; ties space to time; And ties gravity to the speed of light. It also say ever thing is relativity to the speed of light.
The reason nothing of any mass can got as fast as the speed of light is that is that as you accelerate you gain mass, and there for the more you accelerate the more energy you need to accelerate. One of the things Einstein little equation say is it take infinite energy to accelerate a object of any given mass to the speed of light or C. The laws of thermodynamics say you can not create energy. So, you can not have infinite energy. A body moving at the speed of light would take on infinite mass and would require infinite amounts of energy to shift it. That said, sub-light travel (very close to the speed of light) is possible, providing you have the energy. Even if you could use the whole power of the sun, which is more power then we can really comprehend beyond a mathematical equation, you still would not have enough energy to travel at the speed of light. Although you could travel at a speed that would kill a human being. Anything over ½ of the speed of light would be unhealthy. The faster an object travels the greater it mass. So at some point the mass of a human being would become so great their physical structure could not handle the mass.
So Einstein is not saying FTL is impossible, just that accelerating to light speed is impossible, or changing the acceleration of an object that traveling at the speed of light. It a small, but often over looked difference.
Any ideal about worm holes or warping space are out, space and time are linked(this why time travel is not possible). If you had a worm hole to say Andromeda, and sent a radio message through it. The signal wave that did not inter the worm hole from the point transmission arrive at the same time as signal that pasted through the worm hole, or the signal that pasted through the worm hole would reach the other side some time after the end of time. I think they are still debating that one.
So in order have FTL you need some system which does not warp space and time, and does not use acceleration to travel.
Also the ideal about using quantum effects may also be impossible, because of information lost. I forget the details. It was only being debated when I read it so it may , or may not have been proven out.
The Tachyon matter transportation (teleport device) wont work either. Thermodynamics get in the way again. Every time you create or destroy a bit you generate heat. The computer system you would be using to run you program would have to be some what hotter then the sun.
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My brain doesn't work well in science or math. But I do appreciate all those who have that gift. I have been to a number of Creation Science seminars and one thing that I find interesting about evolution is they never explain how an animal can survive in its transitory stages. In other words, how does a bird, that is turning into an alligator, live with a wing and a foot? what does this bizarre creature eat? It can't fly and it can't walk. I saw a picture of this creature and it just made me laugh that people can believe anything as long as it's not God.
I always liked the story about the emperor who had no clothes. It just shows how gullible people are and how willing they are to let the "experts" think for them.
I hope more of you science people can help us with some of these things.
Sure Evolution is a weak theory, but it the best we have. Speaking as a Christian, creation theory is not even scripturally sound.. ID is not good science either. The reason why is you can scientifically prove the existent of God and until you do you can't add God to nature philosophy. As a Christian I believe God is responsible for everything, but you don't see me crying, because every scientific theory does not include God. Life is no less or more miraculous then Gravity, thermodynamics, relativity, and any other physical effect.
Creationism only been around for 500 or 600 years, the bible is much older then that. I would go so far as to say Creationism is heresy.
Evolution is a weak theory because it lack Data, and the evidence it does have is not as solid as it should be. All we have is the fossil record, and it is incomplete. At best the fossil record is a blunt tool. The fossil record allows to much politics and Dogma from all side to inter in to the debate. It like saying we have Newtonian physics, and it is good enough to understand the Forces of nature. Newtonian physics are useful and correct, but they are not complete. Relativity is much more elegant and complete then newton's first four laws, even Relativity can be better.
Mutation only plays a small role over time in evolution. Biological plasticization plays a much bigger role in evolution.
Your pet Spot is an example of Biological plasticization. Spot is a wolf who happen to look like Chihuahua. Given a couple of million years with genetic drift, and isolation. Spot's off spring will no longer be genetic wolfs, but genetic chihuahuas.
plas·ti·cize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (plst-sz)
tr. & intr.v. plas·ti·cized, plas·ti·ciz·ing, plas·ti·ciz·es
To make or become plastic.
-plastic
suff.
Forming; growing; changing; developing: metaplastic.
All living creatures are very plastic by nature, even humans. Canis Lupus is just the best know example of the plastic abilities of animals.
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Light has mass and is effected by gravity. Light exsist as both a partical and a wave. There are theories that say that it is a possibility that the same may be true of gravity.
As far as faster than light travel....I think it is a possibility. However, I believe that it will be many many many years before we ever discover how to do it in this world.
Light is composed of photons so we could ask if the photon has mass. The answer is then definitely "no": The photon is a massless particle. According to theory it has energy and momentum but no mass and this is confirmed by experiment to within strict limits. Even before it was known that light is composed of photons it was known that light carries momentum and will exert a pressure on a surface. This is not evidence that it has mass since momentum can exist without mass.
Gravity effect space and time, which in turn effect light. As light travel through space and time.
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gravity travel at the speed of light
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the reason time travel is impossible is because time is how God brings about his purpose :wink:
the concept of a being NOT bound by time OR space is mind boggling.
cool thread, Jesus is master scientist :wink:
From everything I have read about time travel theory, thermodynamics stops all theories anyone has ever come up with, even worm hole theory. So I think your are right.
but remember both time and space are relative.
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That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Amazing!! :shock:
So that's how God does it. :-k
Not really, quantum effects are instantaneous, But then you would be getting in to string theory.
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Hello Sorin,
As far as I'm concerned, God does what He does because He is God and it is His nature.
He is by nature:
Eternal
All powerful
All knowing
Everywhere
Self Existant
In control
Wise beyond measure
Unlimited
LOVE
etc., etc.
Mark
I would say that God is beyond the universe. Therfor the laws of the universe just do not apply to him. That said I do not believe he violates natural law. He does not have to the universe is his creation.
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That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Amazing!! :shock:
So that's how God does it. :-k
Not really, quantum at instantaneous, But then you would be getting in to string theory.
Perhaps I worded that wrong. I meant to say, now I'm starting to understand this better. not that, that's exactly how God does it.
:oops:
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That would mean I would be in both places at the same time, or essentially everywhere at once. Sounds like God.
Amazing!! :shock:
So that's how God does it. :-k
Not really, quantum at instantaneous, But then you would be getting in to string theory.
Perhaps I worded that wrong. I meant to say, now I'm starting to understand this better. not that, that's exactly how God does it.
:oops:
What I meant was quantum effect are instantaneous. They are faster then light. Light does take time to travel. Light itself is not effected by time, that why when you see pictures of starts you are seeing backward in to time.
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You speak correctly, at least based on today's knowledge. Everything would be older, but based on the travelers perception, virtually no time would have elapsed.
I don't know about the rest of you, but this is starting to give me a brain cramp.
Mark
no cramps here.
hard one, we look at the planet through a telescope, take off a million yrs later we reach that planet, the planet is a million yrs older but we arnt
heee heeee heee daaaaaaang
Yes this why physicist always want to look out farther. The farther the can see the earlier they can see. it is a form of time travel
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http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html
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Chuck, that was awesome :lol: ~ a universe within a universe.
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Late comer to the forum here....but enjoyed the thread as well...
my contribution:
Time = God's way of making sure everything does not happen all at once! :)