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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: jeetkunejimi on August 27, 2016, 06:22:29 PM

Title: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: jeetkunejimi on August 27, 2016, 06:22:29 PM
Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me. My niece is getting married next year and she has sent me an invitation, the seeming problem is that she's marrying another woman :o. I feel in my heart that I should have no problem going and supporting her on a very important day to her and her partner but, I also feel uneasy that I will also be in some way supporting gay marriage... which I don't. I feel that it's important that I show her how much I love her and also how much I love her mother, (my sister of course) who will expect me to attend along with my brother who is also a very strong Christian believing as I do.

I will of course be making my own decision as will my brother but, it's always good to seek wise counsel. Thanks for any constructive and scriptural input that any of you may have that could help me decide.

God bless :).     
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 27, 2016, 07:56:00 PM
Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me. My niece is getting married next year and she has sent me an invitation, the seeming problem is that she's marrying another woman :o. I feel in my heart that I should have no problem going and supporting her on a very important day to her and her partner but, I also feel uneasy that I will also be in some way supporting gay marriage... which I don't. I feel that it's important that I show her how much I love her and also how much I love her mother, (my sister of course) who will expect me to attend along with my brother who is also a very strong Christian believing as I do.

I will of course be making my own decision as will my brother but, it's always good to seek wise counsel. Thanks for any constructive and scriptural input that any of you may have that could help me decide.

God bless :).   

Wedding ceremony is the celebration of a union between two people.

I would not attend the celebration of a union which God has condemned time and time again.

We had a VERY LONG thread about this once upon a time which I had started, it may help you to read through it and see what was brought up for discussion.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16110.0.html

The thread is very helpful in my humble opinion.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 27, 2016, 09:08:53 PM
I do not have free will.  But God does allow me to make choices.

I choose not to associate with anyone who lives in obvious opposition to the Scriptures.

Which is one reason I do not attend a Christian or any other kind of church.

Following God's Way, by His Grace, as He directs my way, has made me a stranger and sojourner on the earth.  Not friends with the Many.  I do not care what people think of me.  I would not want it any other way.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on August 28, 2016, 08:58:13 AM
Last night I spent a few hours reading that thread that Alex mentioned and now it's 4:30am and I can't sleep because it's going around in my head.  So perhaps typing out my little story can clarify the matter for some people.  My dad performed the ceremony at my wedding, and he is an unusually humble and wise preacher *in some areas*, even though he is still in Babylon.  Since my wedding I have had many people come up to me and tell me how his sermon changed the way they think of marriage and how they attend weddings.  He spoke about every person present being witness to our marriage, not just on that day but from that day forward.  He said that as witnesses they are no longer "for" Vicki (me) or "for" Mike (my husband), they are now called to be for the union of us, as we are one.  With tears in his eyes he told that crowd of people that if his little girl comes to him, as I have so many times before, to tell my story and seek his counsel, he will have to school himself to set aside his urge to take my side, and instead seek the best for our union, our marriage.  And he called each person there to do the same for us, and for every couple that they witness being married. 
I hope this helps.  Good night.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: jeetkunejimi on August 28, 2016, 10:18:39 AM
Thank you for your replies so far. My issue here is one of love, love which never fails. My niece has invited me to her wedding because she wants me to be there because she loves me. Why should I think that my sins are whiter than her sins just because she is a lesbian who wants to be in a monogamous relationship with another woman because they love one another and want to declare their love for one another publically. I've been married 18 years to my wife and I have most certainly looked at other women at times sexually. That makes me an adultery according to Christ. So who am I to judge??? I also lie from time to time, think badly of other people, swear when I'm angry, etc, etc. What a wretched man I am without Christ to renew me.

I believe that all things happen for a reason and that God is over everything. I feel that I have to show my beautiful niece compassion and love at this time and not a school master mentality. She's not asking me to go on a 'Gay Pride' march which I wouldn't do because I'm not gay and I hate walking, she's just asking me to be there for her to show my love and consideration to her, when she needs it most on her wedding day. I believe that God knows my motives and my heart and what I'm trying to do when I try to do the right thing. In life not everything is always black-and-white. We have to realise that we're just puny humans doing our best in a world that we can rarely control.

If I don't show her my love towards her and how proud I am of her, of how beautiful a person she has grown up to become, then I feel that I will have failed to show her Christ in me. My witness to her of the love of Christ that is in me will have turned her off! I have to believe that God is working in my niece's life and He will bring her one day through Christ to spiritual completion just as He will faithfully do with all mankind.

Jesus sat with landlords and protected prostitutes, etc, Jesus healed people and told them to "go away and sin no more", knowing full well that they would. Jesus raised people from the dead knowing full well that they'd only end up dying again. Jesus always loved us and always will love us all, even though we sinned before we were made as he is. He gave up his life here on earth so that we could all have our sins wiped away soon. Jesus attended a wedding where the wine ran out and he turned water into wine so that everyone could continue to celebrate and be merry and so that the hosts would not be embarrassed about not having enough of something. This is the compassion Jesus has shown me and that I must never forget. I want to go to her wedding not to show my support for gay marriage but to show my support for her! She knows full well that I don't agree with gay marriage or church but, I must not only go the extra mile, I must also not turn away from lending my niece my time.

(Matt 5:41-42)

41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him two miles.

42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


If I'm not there for her on her wedding day then I think that I will regret it for the rest of my life and I don't want to do that to myself or her or her partner, I couldn't be that self absorbed and mean. I'm the one called to a higher standard here by God, I have by His grace been given eyes to see some truths that He has allowed me to see thus far, others including my niece have not as of yet. I have to be the one here as well as my brother also who has too, "forgive them for they know not what they do".

I hope that people understand my decision and once again thank you for your input guys it has actually helped me especially reading through the gay marriage thread.

God be with us all as we try to do what's best from day to day knowing that when we fail Christ is there to carry us because he first loved us and his love never fails. Amen.

Sincerely,
Jimi :). 

 



 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on August 28, 2016, 12:58:51 PM

Hi Jimi, well I will give you my opinion, because this is a matter I have considered. Believers are unique in this world and so of course we think differently about most worldly things. We are a witness not just for the moment, but will be a future reference for people to reflect on as well, what I mean is that people will look back on our actions and remember what we stood for by those actions. So even though your intentions are to merely show love, for many if not most your actions will speak louder than words or your intentions.

You realize that your niece is entering a sinful lifestyle, and will have to give account for that, I feel as we know the truth of the consequence of sin, but people of the world do not understand that... So in attending and in reality supporting what this ceremony represents, you are actually sanctioning it. I would never want anybody to be able to look back on my direct involvement in their life as to appear in any way as putting my blessing on a sin that they certainly will have to answer for... That really is love that she might not fully understand now, but eventually it should become most evident.

So just wanted to add my perspective, it's certainly not an easy life we live, with many hard choices to make. But it's "narrow path" that we are on and many may think ill of us now because of our way of living, but certainly it's God that we are trying to obey and please above people.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: cheekie3 on August 28, 2016, 01:41:47 PM
jeetjkunejimi -

Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me. My niece is getting married next year and she has sent me an invitation, the seeming problem is that she's marrying another woman :o. I feel in my heart that I should have no problem going and supporting her on a very important day to her and her partner but, I also feel uneasy that I will also be in some way supporting gay marriage... which I don't. I feel that it's important that I show her how much I love her and also how much I love her mother, (my sister of course) who will expect me to attend along with my brother who is also a very strong Christian believing as I do.

I will of course be making my own decision as will my brother but, it's always good to seek wise counsel. Thanks for any constructive and scriptural input that any of you may have that could help me decide.

God bless :).   

This is very difficult to deal with in the correct manner.

I do not know how I would deal with this.

I believe most would take the view that we should not judge others' chosen way of life, even if we were not that way inclined ourselves - and it would be disrespectful.

I have tried hard to envisage myself agreeing to attend the wedding, or not attending.

To me, I could not see myself attending, as I would be endorsing their lifestyles, even though there is only One Judge of us all (His Beloved Children), no matter how you cut it - it boils down to this:

A. If I go, I would be accepting their chosen lifestyle.
B. If I do not go, I would not be accepting their chosen lifestyle.

I would continue to pray for them, as and when I was burdened by The Holy Spirit.

Most would take the comfortable and Convenient option, and go, as it is nothing to do with them, as what others choose to do is entirely up to them.

The root cause of all this, is whether or not we believe in God's Laws or mankind's laws (really Satan's laws).

What does Our Almighty Father and Creator say about this.

He says enough to convince me that it is wrong to engage in such practices.

Perhaps, I would say to my sister and niece, and their families and friends, something like this:

"You know that I care for you all, and you know that I follow what God says about how we should live and behave - and you know that God confirms what marriage is.

I cannot therefore attend your wedding, as it is contrary to what God says a marriage should be."

I will continue to pray for you.

You are in a very difficult position.

Kind Regards.

George


 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 28, 2016, 05:14:46 PM
This is not about judging or love, etc., IMO. But by you attending you are sanctioning, giving your blessing to this act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it)

I suggest you try and find other ways of supporting your Niece. You may want to just tell her the truth.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: AwesomeSavior on August 28, 2016, 05:15:54 PM
Hi jeetkunejimi:

Towards the end of last year, my father and I learned that my cousin's daughter was also getting "married" to a woman. At first my father said that he would go to support his twin brother, who is this woman's grandfather. I told him that I was not going to go to this thing as it is condemned by Scripture. Eventually, he changed his mind. We received a "Save the Date" mailing in January from them, and then the invitation in March for this May "wedding". We both checked off the box that indicated we weren't going to this "ceremony". All the rest of our family participated except for one aunt and uncle out of state.

Afterwards, in talking with one of my brothers, he said he would never go to another one of them, and even his wife, who was supportive, said that she felt a bit uncomfortable when they smooched. The grandmother, who is my father's brother's wife, was drinking a little bit extra during the reception, and my cousin Mike, who is the father of this girl, was really troubled at the thought of this whole situation, per what my brother had told me.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.

Dean
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on August 28, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
I think so many of us have been slowly lulled into worldly "tolerance" that we are neglecting to call sin what it is.  So maybe if I turn up the heat, it will bring things into sharper focus.  This is not hypothetical, there are a real-life mother and son in the USA who are trying to have laws changed to suit their incestuous relationship.  We KNOW that's a sin, right?  Please tell me the usual arguments don't soften the edges and make it easier to swallow in this case!  Please tell me we KNOW our response to that wedding invitation.  Like Dennis said, it's not a matter of judgement or love.  A blogger wrote powerful words about it, I don't think this is considered teaching but if it it please delete Moderators:

"It goes like this: The mother, Monica Mares, gave up her son, Caleb Peterson, for adoption when she was 19 and he was a baby. Their paths crossed again some 20 years later, and soon after that fateful reunion they decided to strike up a sexual relationship. Incest is still illegal in all 50 states, so one or both of them may wind up in prison for several months. They’ve now taken their plight public in hopes of rallying the most progressive and fearless members of our tolerant society to their defense.

They make a strangely familiar case. They say they are in love. They say their love is just as loving as anyone else’s love. They say they aren’t hurting anybody. They say they’re consenting adults. They say this is none of the government’s business."
He later states, "If that was good enough for gay “marriage,” why isn’t it good enough for a brother and sister or mother and son?"       -Matt Walsh   

Anyone squirming in their seats yet?
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: jeetkunejimi on August 28, 2016, 07:58:21 PM
Thank you all for your input.

My niece had an abusive father who was also violent to my sister he is now out of the picture, he also treated her like a boy when she was growing up. My point is we're all a product of the grace of God. What chance did she have to develop her feminine nature? She is still a beautiful person with a kind gentle heart. She is still a child of God who will be reconciled to Him at an appointed time (Act 3:19-21, 1 Tim 2:3-6). I have no anger or hate in my heart anymore because of this hope. I don't need to judge others, I don't need to behave as sinfully as some others do but, I do sin, everyone does, there's none without sin. Is anyone on this forum without sin??? Is there a married man on this forum who can honestly say that he has NEVER EVER while being married looked upon another woman lustfully? Is there anyone on this forum who has never felt anger or hatred towards someone in their daily life?

Am I not to help a sinner? Am I not to be a god samaritan? Ray stated this on his paper, 'IS HOMOSEXUALITY A SIN FOR NEW TESTAMENT BELIEVERS?'

QUOTE: "The purpose of this paper is not to single out or come down upon homosexuals. I have never written a paper entitled: "Is Stealing a Sin for New Testament Believers?" or, "Is Bearing False Witness a Sin?" or, "Is Murder a Sin?" So why "homosexuality? Because more and more, the media, entertainment, the government, the Church, the general population of America and much of the world, no longer believes it is a sin to be discriminated against, whereas even the basest of nations have laws against stealing, false witness, and murder.

So, my purpose here is not to judge, but to specifically establish whether homosexuality is a sin or not a sin for Believers in Christ under the New Covenant." END QUOTE:


Also Ray wrote,

QUOTE: "Heterosexual men are just as weak when it comes to lusting after women, as homosexuals are when it comes to lusting after members of the same gender. The ONLY way that I know of to break these sins and have victory over them is for God to empower you with a greater motivation to live righteously than to live unrighteously. If what you desire to be is "good," then there is only One Source.":END QUOTE.

My niece is very happily in love with her partner and they want to commit themselves to each other for life that to me is at least more than some hetrosexual couples can be bothered to do. God knows full well my intentions in attending and my family know full well my views on homosexuality but, to condemn homosexuals for being who they are and their personal trials to me just isn't Christian. I know and trust that God WILL do a good work in my niece one day and she will be changed but for now she is who she is, we all are who we are, warts and all, and God still loves the world enough to send Jesus for us all.

I fully accept the will of God in my life, only His will is being done, He will not be second guessed by the likes of me or a 25 years old lesbian woman in love. He is working all things to His good pleasure. 


Ephesians 2:10-22,
"10/For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11/Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12/ remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13/ But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14/ For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15/ by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16/ and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17/ AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
18/ for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
19/ So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,
20/ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone,
21/ in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."


I believe that the tabernacle of God will not be complete till every human being that will ever live forms it like brick upon brick. We're all capable of much good as well as much evil, who is greater than another? Who has the plank and who has the splinter? When Jesus attended the wedding at Cana it is possible that it was a family member's wedding or at least a close friend of his mother's. Jesus made sure no one was embarrassed by the lack of wine, he made sure that the celebrations kept going by turning water into wine. Jesus saw past a person's sin, he saw what they will be through him one day.

Thank you all again for your views. May the love of Christ be in us and made apparent to those who know not of him yet by our love towards them.


(Rom 5:8),
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  :).
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 28, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Stop trying to justify sinful behavior with other sinful behavior.

No believer, nor any carnal man, is your example. Jesus is your example and you are to imitate Him. He didn't dp those things you attempt to justify your behavior with. Sin is shameful and not to be excused. No one will enter tinhe kingdom of God with an attitude or behavior such as that.

Your cousin is a child of disobedience, and the wrath of God is upon all them. They are as of yet not the sons and daughters of God. God INTRODUCED His love to her while she is in her sins not for her to remains their with her sinful behavior, a lesson she will learn at the appointed time.

Consider the Word of God
Ephesians 5:1
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.


Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

No man can serve two masters. If you are lukewarm he will spit you out.

The only father those who walk after the ways of this world have is Satan who is the god of this present age.

John 8:43-45
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Israel of old celebrated other gods and lifestyles and it was a stern warning to all who would worship the true God. They were our example but to learn from, not to imitate their sinful behaviours and mistakes.

Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

In Christ,
Alex
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Terry on August 28, 2016, 09:10:32 PM
This has been a great thread for me it has helped me examine my life , I read way more than I post and for good reason I know so little. I think I read here maybe that its not hard to know right from wrong the hard part is doing whats right, I think that's a true statement. I don't study like most of you do, I don't know how to find scriptures but one thing  I do know is that little  voice inside of me always lets me know the way I should go whether I listen or not. Heres an example I've been wresting with this  for a while, I talk on a CB radio to people all over the country and to do this you must have great equipment at least it helps and I have a Teck that doesn't believe in God I have no problem with that, the problem is he lies,he steals, and has the most foul mouth of about anybody I know, don't get me wrong i'm no saint or anybody special i'm a wretch my self, so that little voice has been speaking to me for some time now this is someone I don't need to be around but because I need him for my hobby I don't listen to that voice, also I realize the more i'm around him the less I'm around God I don't read here as much, it makes me feel lonely, that's not a good feeling,so for me I find if i'll just listen and if something doesn't feel right that little voice will lead me  down the right path, so its not knowing whats right its doing whats right that's hard, for me if I want to do something I can find some way to justified it, thank God for that little voice.
Terry
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 28, 2016, 09:25:55 PM
This i feel is relavent since Jesus' love keeps coming up.

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm

A STARTLING REVELATION: GOD HATES SINNERS

There is no Scripture which states that God hates everyone even though everyone sins:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)

However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.  Here are some examples:

 "And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23)

"If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments ...My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:14 & 30)

"For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 18:12

"...all that do unrighteously are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 25:16)

"They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to anger...and when the LORD saw it, and He abhorred them..." (Deut. 32:16 & 19)

"The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity..." (Psalm 5:5)

"...God is angry [Heb: 'enraged, abhorrence, abominable'] with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11)

"For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, and... blesses the covetous, whom the LORD abhors" (Psalm 10:3)

"The Lord tries the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5)

"When God heard this He was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" (Psalm 78:59)

"For the froward [adverse, disobedient] is an abomination to the LORD" (Prov. 3:32)

"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination to Him... A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16 & 19)

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him" (I Cor. 16:22, Moffatt Translation)

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is enmity [hatred] with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God" (James 4:4)

So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?

There is one Scripture that some might think contradicts the many Scriptures above stating that God hates sinners, and that verse is found in Rom. 5:8.

"But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Doesn't this verse prove that God does love us, even while we are continuing to sin? No, it doesn't. It may sound that way, but let's take a closer look.

God doesn't love those who practice sinning as a way of life. He introduced His love to them but as I said, not so they can contnue in that lifestyle but to repent and be transformed.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: AwesomeSavior on August 28, 2016, 09:39:06 PM
lostandfound:

I saw that story you referenced, and yes it is disgusting, and yet not surprising. I have believed for quite some time now, after that gay marriage ruling came down, that it was only a matter of time before the slippery slope of sin would lead to further debauchery in this society. I hope the Lord returns soon, because it is my opinion that if He doesn't return within around 20 years time or so, just like with gay marriage, things like pedophilia and beastiality would also be recognized as "legitimate lifestyles". Just like all the other ancient empires of this world, such as Babylon and Rome, America will also be brought to her knees. "Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

Dean
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Joel on August 28, 2016, 09:54:31 PM
These scriptures may help.

Exodus 23:7-Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

1st Thessalonians 5:22-From everything wicked to perception, abstain.

James 1:27-Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, AND TO KEEP HIMSELF UNSPOTTED FROM THE WORLD.

Joel

Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on August 28, 2016, 10:22:43 PM

2Co 6:17  Therefore, "Get away from them and separate yourselves from them," declares the Lord, "and don't touch anything unclean. Then I will welcome you. (ISV)

I do not believe that it is showing superiority or a claim that we are perfect to not be present at an event/ceremony that is clearly condemned in the Scripture, such as homosexual wedding. When it says be "separate" then it's not okay to go along with something if you think you have good reason to. As a believer and a follower of Christ we have to put obeying Christ even before our families.

Mat 10:37  He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: John from Kentucky on August 29, 2016, 12:23:45 AM
Another point comes to mind.

God alone decides what is right and wrong, good and evil.  God created mankind male and female.

Human beings can argue back and forth about homosexual marriage, as we have seen in recent years.

But God has the only judgment that matters.  God's judgment will decide this issue.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: octoberose on August 29, 2016, 02:03:02 AM
Jimi- you'll see if you read the prior thread  on this subject I was rather vocal. I know you mean well, but for the life of me I'll never understand people who know the Truth of God being so willing to subsitute worldly wisdom for Godly wisdom.  I just don't see the difference between condoning and  attending. You don't owe a website fellowship a reason or justification- but you wrote to ask for counsel and then scolded those who tried to give it. Jesus plainly told us what marriage is-  a man and his wife.  Is that judging? You bet my old Baptist hymnal it is.  There is plenty of judging in the Scripture.  We cannot judge a heart but we can judge actions and this action is plain to see. Least you think I'm heartless and clueless, this subject affects me closely.  I will probably lose all contact with a loved one if I refuse to attend a  'gay wedding. But my relatives are not my god as I have stated before and nothing has changed since I first said that.
 Some people in our group will be offended and upset by those of us who state this plainly. I wish I could prevent that but I cannot. I wish I could tell those who have same sex attraction that I am no better then you and I have compassion on you. I wish no harm on you and pray that God will have mercy on you in every way. That just doesn't change the Truth that those who walk in sexual sin are not walking with God. 
 Jimi you stated that your niece is a child of God. No, she is not. Not yet. She is a creation of God, but she lives in  willful disobedience and she is not His child. I feel pretty sure Ray talked about that specifically but perhaps someone else can find it for you.
 Love is not sweet and sentimental and placating. Love is - well,  the exact opposite of what the world around us is showing us.
 In the end, who do you serve?   Who do we all serve? We must decide every day.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Extol on August 29, 2016, 10:56:19 AM
Jimi,

It sounds like your mind is already made up, but I will offer my opinion anyway:

As I said before in the thread Alex shared, there is a big difference between being friends/acquaintances (or in your case, loving uncle) with a homosexual person, and actively supporting/celebrating the person's homosexuality.

You're trying to make excuses for your niece's lifestyle by bringing up her past. Yes, her upbringing may have a lot to do with it. It's elementary to all of us here that we don't have free will and are products of our environments and circumstances. That doesn't excuse sin. If I invite you over to my house to celebrate my lust, will you say "Yeah I'll come support you. After all, you were born male so can't help it. You're a product of God's grace, He loves us all!"

No, there is not a married man here who has not had lustful thoughts--especially not me. But there also has not been a thread where one of us asked the others to come along on an excursion to the beach and spend the day lusting after women. Come show your support for my adultery, brothers!

You're getting sucked into the tolerance trap that Vicki talked about: It doesn't hurt anybody, they love each other, God loves them, we all are sinners, eventually God will change us all....It sounds like you have a really good relationship with your niece, and maybe you're afraid of losing that. There's nothing wrong with loving your niece, but do you love her more than you love God?

P.S. How in the world is it being a "good Samaritan" to your niece by attending her wedding?
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 29, 2016, 01:42:57 PM
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

It's one thing to be tempted and quite another to plan ahead with foresight to enable something God is against.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: octoberose on August 29, 2016, 02:34:57 PM
I"m just perplexed.
 This is your quote from Ray:
QUOTE: "The purpose of this paper is not to single out or come down upon homosexuals. I have never written a paper entitled: "Is Stealing a Sin for New Testament Believers?" or, "Is Bearing False Witness a Sin?" or, "Is Murder a Sin?" So why "homosexuality? Because more and more, the media, entertainment, the government, the Church, the general population of America and much of the world, no longer believes it is a sin to be discriminated against, whereas even the basest of nations have laws against stealing, false witness, and murder."

Did you read it? Ray's condemning this sin being normalized. 

And I just don't understand bringing up Jesus at the wedding. His first miracle may have saved face for this couple and their family but glossing over sinful acts is not what Jesus was about. I'm sure there's a lot of symbolism there since he later refers to his blood as wine.   Didn't he ask  Who is  my mother? Who is the brother?  He who does the Will of my father in heaven.

Yes, Jesus shows compassion to sinners. For one thing he didn't stone them when he could have by law. You've gone from not putting them to death to celebrating them. Big difference.

I do want to say though that when I said, "I wish I could tell those who have same sex attraction that I am no better then you and have compassion on you"... I was saying I wish I could tell you in person or make you understand but I can't.  I Wasn't saying that I wish I could have compassion on you but I don't.   Since this all is in writing and writing is sometimes misinterpreted it occurred to me that I wanted to make that very clear.

Romans 6 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!... v13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your member to God as instruments for righteousness."   In fact all of Romans 6 is instructive for this.

 


Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Extol on August 29, 2016, 03:10:29 PM

And I just don't understand bringing up Jesus at the wedding. His first miracle may have saved face for this couple and their family but glossing over sinful acts is not what Jesus was about. I'm sure there's a lot of symbolism there since he later refers to his blood as wine.   Didn't he ask  Who is  my mother? Who is the brother?  He who does the Will of my father in heaven.

 

This is a good point too. Implying that Jesus was somehow condoning drunkenness is like saying Luke 22:38 condones killing our enemies.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: acomplishedartis on August 30, 2016, 04:39:44 AM
Well, since I have already read the whole thread. I will say something.

Maybe, if you want peace with your niece, think on something more important that you could do on that day, something that for your niece could justify--you not attending to the wedding...
I do think that preaching to her would be useless, specially if she is not even interested.
Just an idea...
 
Another idea, is that maybe you should try to worry not so much about a wedding thing. Honestly, from a world wide perspective of things it's kind of a luxury to afford it.

Also I want to thank all responses as they have gave me insights in other matters besides weddings.




Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on August 30, 2016, 01:41:26 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)











Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Extol on August 30, 2016, 02:11:17 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on August 30, 2016, 02:30:02 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?









Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Extol on August 30, 2016, 03:50:53 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that honoring and celebrating warriors is not the reason you're going to those events--even if they happen to fall on those days. That's why I highlighted in bold the activities you were participating in: 4th of July BBQ. Pee wee football. That's what you are doing there. You're not praising the fallen dead. There's nothing sinful about eating at a family picnic, even if the reason everyone has off work is because it's a day to honor veterans or promote nationalism.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 30, 2016, 04:09:13 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

As Jesse said, the reason for why you are doing something matters and the reason for the event matters. A wedding is the celebration of a union between to people and the festivities of celebration.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on August 30, 2016, 04:10:54 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that honoring and celebrating warriors is not the reason you're going to those events--even if they happen to fall on those days. That's why I highlighted in bold the activities you were participating in: 4th of July BBQ. Pee wee football. That's what you are doing there. You're not praising the fallen dead. There's nothing sinful about eating at a family picnic, even if the reason everyone has off work is because it's a day to honor veterans or promote nationalism.

Gotcha, ok... Sounds like we agree... So I'm confused as to how you think it's a bad analogy. Doesn't your explanation support the analogy?




Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on August 30, 2016, 04:22:11 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

You probably don't see nationalism as a religion.

I'm not talking about eating BBQ on the sand when everyone has the day off. I'm talking about a BBQ on the 4th of July to celebrate the 4th of July... Little flags everywhere, red white and blue table cloths and napkins. Sparklers. I'm talking about attending a Parade in honor of 4th of July. I'm talking about standing and facing the flag during the national anthem. Most may swell with sinful pride as the music plays but I do not.

Like Extol said, you can be there for a different reason than everyone else. I think that's a spot on analogy to attending a gay wedding.



Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on August 30, 2016, 04:29:56 PM
I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

You probably don't see nationalism as a religion.

I'm not talking about eating BBQ on the sand when everyone has the day off. I'm talking about a BBQ on the 4th of July to celebrate the 4th of July... Little flags everywhere, red white and blue table cloths and napkins. Sparklers. I'm talking about attending a Parade in honor of 4th of July. I'm talking about standing and facing the flag during the national anthem. Most may swell with sinful pride as the music plays but I do not.

Like Extol said, you can be there for a different reason than everyone else. I think that's a spot on analogy to attending a gay wedding.

I didn't understand Jesse to mean that. m

Jesse was saying that not everyone at the beach is there to celebrate war and violence, carnal men and national pride.  Beaches, good food, etc... are not reserved for celebrating sinful behavior.

Attending a wedding however is reserved for celebrating the union of two people whose wedding it is. Being there places you there for very specific reasons of which are included to show your support for the couple and participate in the festivities celebrating their union. The reason matters.

You can be at the beach or any public event for that matter for a million reasons including just taking a stroll. You can't really be at a private event, a wedding, for more than one though. You're there for the couple to support them. In the case of gay marriage, to support that which God condemns.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on August 30, 2016, 05:03:46 PM

Here's a thought largeli, if a gay couple invited you to their home to have dinner with them, do you think that would be the same thing as attending their wedding ceremony?  Of course not, IMO it is not the same thing at all... where as the ceremony is to celebrate the joining of the couple (in the case being discussed) in a biblical condemned relationship. Dinner well it's eating a meal and we have to learn to differentiate what one represents from the other.  Christ ate with sinners (Mark 2:15), yet we know He would never do anything that appeared to condone their sins.

I can show I care for and love a person in many ways, but I would not want to do something that would appear that I am in agreement with or condoning a homosexual relationship and those in attendance would have to think you were. I believe it is important for a believer to begin to live the life of obedience and that certainly includes what others see in us.

Matt 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

1Peter 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
v. 16  having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.
v. 17  For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: acomplishedartis on August 30, 2016, 05:25:01 PM

And HERE the why I don't go to church... 

Not that I am anyone important, but at least for me; Just my presence would be advertising for them and for free--Ha

Plus, I don't like the rituals that they perform there.


ps. (once in a long while, I go to a church where no body knows me, just to check out if there is something new, like some new techniques of manpulation, or just to remember what kind of such dark places I was saved from)


Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 30, 2016, 05:56:25 PM
Just showing up makes you part of the wedding.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on August 30, 2016, 07:22:01 PM
You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.







Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on August 30, 2016, 07:40:51 PM
You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.

This has nothing to do with judging. It's about right and wrong.

Gen 19:14  And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

Gen 19:15  And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Luk 17:32  Remember Lot's wife.

Sodom was sinful enough to destroy it.

"Appearances" matter a lot.

Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Jesus is our example and we are to be an example for others.

Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on August 30, 2016, 10:20:31 PM
You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.

Are you really trying to say that we are wrong to presume that somebody that attends a wedding ceremony is there to congratulate the couple on their marriage? You must be grasping at straws to hold that view... I mean what else would somebody be there for?

To attend a gay marriage would most certainly appear to be supporting that lifestyle... so I guess maybe if you are determined to attend and don't want anybody to misunderstand, you could go to everybody there and make sure they know you do not agree with it? That would be totally ridiculous, because somebody with that attitude should not attend in the first and certainly would not be welcomed there.

Well I'm going to be more presumptuous and say it sounds like you are trying to straddle the fence on this issue, not willing to make a stand that you are not for homosexuality, because you would want to celebrate their wedding with them, what did Christ say about being lukewarm.

Rev 3:15  "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16  So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Here is an email about what appearances mean.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6212.0.html -----------

        I am curious about this passage.  In the NIV it reads Avoid every kind of evil.  This appears to imply that we should not do anything that is wrong.  Similar translations can be found in a number of other translations.  For example:
         
        hold aloof from every form of wickedness - Darby
         
        abstain from every form of evil - American Standard
         
        Stay away from every form of evil - Holman
         
        But now let's read this same apparently unremarkable passage in the King James Bible, where it reads: Abstain from all appearance of evil.  This is so different.  It seems to imply not merely that we should not do anything wrong, but that we should not do anything which could be construed as wrong.  Suddenly it becomes one of the most challenging passages in the Bible.
         
        But is the King James correct in its translation?  Similar translations can be found in a few other versions:
         
        from all appearance of evil abstain ye - Young's Literal
         
        Keep away from everything that even looks like sin - New Life Version
         
        The New Life seems pretty clear on this point.
         
        My question is simply this:  Which translation is correct?
         
        Thank you in advance for your reply.
         

        Dear Quentin:  They are ALL correct. The word translated "appearance" in King James and others is the Greek word "idos" and it is translated: "shape" (Luke 3:22); "fashion" (Luke 9:29); "sight" (II Cor. 5:7);  and "appearance" (I Thes. 5:22).
         
        The Greek word "idos" is define as: " a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight" (Strong's Concordance # 1491).
         
        The word "form" means: "The body or outward APPEARANCE...." (American Heritage College Dictionary).

        God be with you,
        Ray
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: acomplishedartis on August 30, 2016, 10:21:08 PM
Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me.

I guess everyone is just trying to help...

Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on August 30, 2016, 11:33:33 PM
Who was it who said, "a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still?"
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on August 31, 2016, 12:50:33 AM

Well here's another idiom to go along with that, 'there's the rub' - asking for help, but not wanting advice...

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: octoberose on August 31, 2016, 01:30:53 AM
Gee Largeli, I didn't know you'd enjoy a 'wedding' only for the free food.  :o

 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Flanagan on September 01, 2016, 01:49:37 PM
Jesus said we'd be persecuted 2Tim 3:12.  "division between"  Mat 10:34-37 . I'm afraid I agree with the majority. This is one of those times when you'll have to choose. I'm glad you brought it up though because my nephew has decided to become a woman. I could be faced with the same circumstance and now I've made my choice even before it has happened. God's love be with you
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lareli on September 01, 2016, 03:11:00 PM
Kat you asked...

Are you really trying to say that we are wrong to presume that somebody that attends a wedding ceremony is there to congratulate the couple on their marriage? You must be grasping at straws to hold that view... I mean what else would somebody be there for?

My answer... Yes. I am saying its wrong to presume to know what another persons motives, reasons, intentions are for attending a wedding or for doing anything for that matter. Definitely a lack of humility to tell someone what their reasons are for doing something especially after the person has told you otherwise. As if someone knows better than me what my reasons for doing something are.

The last 2 weddings I've been to, I could not even tell you what the grooms name was. I was there only because I was asked to be there.. Christ said if someone asks me to go one mile, go two. He didn't say 'gay marriages excluded'.

I was most definitely not there to give my approval. How could I approve of my cousin marrying a guy I don't even know? He might have been a total jerk, unbeliever, psychopath, or whatever... Besides that, I highly doubt I was invited in the first place so that I could offer my approval. Two adults don't need my approval. I'd have to think pretty highly of myself to believe that my precious approval of their union was being requested.

My reasons for going are usually free food, open bar, dancing, and seeing family that I usually don't see very often.

When I got married I could really care less if anyone 'approved'. I was 21 and my wife was 18 and 6 months pregnant so I'm pretty sure a lot, if not everyone, did not approve. Didn't matter. Come hang out, get some food, dance. Whatever. I'm sure some were there to witness the beginning of a possible future train wreck. Doubt anyone thought we'd be married for long.

I bet if you surveyed 100 people about their reasons for attending a wedding, free food/open bar would be in the top 3 while giving their approval would be somewhere near the bottom. So I really don't think I'm grasping at straws. 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Kat on September 01, 2016, 04:56:47 PM

Okay largeli, I see where you are coming from. Your attitude is it's none of your business if the wedding is going against the basic principles of Scripture. I guess I'm coming from a perspective that as I have learned the truth then I hold a much greater responsibility as a witness to that which I believe. No I do not think I should or even need to preach and tell people what I believe to be truth, but I do believe that my words and actions can be a light or dark witness. We should be a light to this world.

Matt 5:14  "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
v. 15  People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
v. 16  In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."

You don't seem to be concerned with what was said in the ceremony vows which are spoken before God, there is usually a statement spoken at the end like this "If any of you can show just cause why they may not lawfully be married, speak now; or else for ever hold your peace."

It is my thinking if you believe the truth that homosexuality is a sin, and were present at a ceremony as a witness before God of the couple's union and that statement was spoken and you remained silent... that is a very loud witness to God and all that attended.

Going for food and visiting family, I guess that's one way to justify it... the same reasoning could be used for attending church and imo the reasons to come out of church and not attend a gay wedding would be pretty much the same.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: indianabob on September 03, 2016, 04:17:09 PM
Hey Jimi,

I've read all the responses up to page 3 and there has been lots of valid advice and counsel, some corrective and some liberating so I have just one final comment to offer.

The calling we have received has many purposes of course, but among them is to gain an understanding of just how weak and carnal we all are and to learn how much we need God in our daily lives. So, if you attend the wedding and if God decides that you were wrong, then God will correct you and you will learn the lesson that God intended for you to learn.

The purpose of the calling is NOT only to work hard to be perfect in this life. The greater purpose is to start each day over when we wake up and to understand that if we have repented of our past sins and errors of yesterday that we now have a clean slate, as all of our past sins are washed away by the sacrificial blood of the savior.
--
We are starting out clean and new and at least for a few minutes can face our God with open eyes and with a clear and clean conscience and talk to God as a beloved son speaks to his own father, fearing nothing.

So then if you decide to attend the wedding out of love for your niece and some problems develop from that decision, you have an advocate with the Father in the person of our Elder brother, our chief counselor and our Lord Jesus the Christ.

Put it all in his capable hands and relax and don't take unnecessary concern.

Kindly offered, Ole Indiana-bob





Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me. My niece is getting married next year and she has sent me an invitation, the seeming problem is that she's marrying another woman :o. I feel in my heart that I should have no problem going and supporting her on a very important day to her and her partner but, I also feel uneasy that I will also be in some way supporting gay marriage... which I don't. I feel that it's important that I show her how much I love her and also how much I love her mother, (my sister of course) who will expect me to attend along with my brother who is also a very strong Christian believing as I do.

I will of course be making my own decision as will my brother but, it's always good to seek wise counsel. Thanks for any constructive and scriptural input that any of you may have that could help me decide.

God bless :).   
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: cheekie3 on October 21, 2016, 12:26:12 PM
jeetkunejimi -

Thank you all for your comments. If I may I will state some things.

Have any of us ever socialized with unmarried hetrosexual couples, can you ever go to their anniversaries or any other celebrations  of their relationships because they simply do not have a piece of paper that states they belong to the government? Because they haven't stood in the hallowed halls of Christendom (modern day babylon) and recited words that are not in scripture. Going to my nieces gay wedding isn't about me sanctioning lebianism, (I most certainly do not sanction such behaviour) it's actually about me showing my love for my niece. She has CHOSEN a certain lifestyle that as we should all know, there before the grace of God Almighty go I.

Her life is the result of a whole different set of circumstances than ours, and she has reacted to those circumstances with what faculties she had at the time of each choice. We all do the same, what else can we do? We're no better on our own, none of us are anything without Christ in us [John 15:5]. This is God's plan and this is what we all do. We're all where God wants us right now every second of every day. Jesus did not come to condemn us all but to save us all via him, via his shed blood, via his unconditional love for us all shown at the cross.

I'm going to take a leaf out of 'Indianabob's' book and if God is going to punish me for showing my love to my niece then I'll take my stripes like a man and move on. Somehow I don't think that He will. I don't believe that the God I love and try hard to serve even though I'm merely flesh & blood would want me to ignore people who are not elect. He wouldn't want me not to care and show my love for those who don't know Christ or have rejected him.

I'm prepared to show my love to those who know not, care not, and love not. I serve the God who has all this in hand. I'm not in a special club, I'm a member of a very, very, big family... God's family. I may not be the prodigal son but, I don't want to be a miserable, jealous, self-righteous elder brother either. Amen.

God's will be done on earth, just as His will is undoubtedly done so in heaven (think about that statement long and hard).

I do not know how I would react if a member of my family were to wed as your niece is.

We know that Our Heavenly Father looks at the intents of our hearts.

We are to be 'His Living Letters', as 'His Witnesses'.

If it was one of my three sons, whom I love very much - I would probably want to have a heart to heart with him - and explain and confirm that I do not approve. If my son had made up his mind, I probably would attend his wedding, as he is my son, as my love for him is greater than what others may think, and greater than his lifestyle choice.

As you have sought advice, and His Guidance, I am sure that He will burden your heart and mind, to do what He wants you to do.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Porter on October 21, 2016, 03:10:41 PM
jeetkunejimi, do you really want the advice given here? Or are you trying to justify a way to make going to the wedding ok? Who you trying to convince, us or yourself? It really seems like you made up your mind before you ever posed the question.

What did Christ say about loving others more then Him?

Matthew 10:34-37 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e] 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Loving Christ more then others will cause division. Jesus never said it would be easy.

 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 21, 2016, 08:18:46 PM
If the sword He came to bring in Matt. 10 is the same sword in Heb_4:12:

For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."

...then we might want to consider why it is sharper than a two-edged sword.  Careful wielding it.

It seems to me that more than just Jeetkunejimi have pre-determined what they will do...or at least think they have.  Jesus is Lord.  He will judge the works of all men rightly.  We are a web-forum. 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 22, 2016, 01:32:46 AM
If the sword He came to bring in Matt. 10 is the same sword in Heb_4:12:

For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."

...then we might want to consider why it is sharper than a two-edged sword.  Careful wielding it.

It seems to me that more than just Jeetkunejimi have pre-determined what they will do...or at least think they have.  Jesus is Lord.  He will judge the works of all men rightly.  We are a web-forum.

Dave, i have always considered us to be much more than a web forum. We are members of His body, and even amongst us as in no where else, in this the House of the Living God, are living pillars and grounds of the truth.

God bless,
Alex

 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on October 22, 2016, 02:14:02 AM
Dave, are you saying that it's wrong to decide ahead of time what a right or wrong action would be in a given situation?
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 22, 2016, 02:38:45 AM
Dave, are you saying that it's wrong to decide ahead of time what a right or wrong action would be in a given situation?

Not really.  I'm more saying it is pointless, ultimately.  At least it has never worked for me.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: octoberose on October 22, 2016, 04:21:48 AM
If you believe in a big mushy " let's all get along" , awe shucks that's okay kind of God , you go ahead and never make a stand for rightouness. God takes sin, yours and mine, seriously. A price had to be paid- a death, Christ's  death. We are either part of the darkness or we are Light. There is no in between .    We all fall, we all fail, but premeditated failure ?  I really try not to do that.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 22, 2016, 11:19:39 AM
God doesnt pre ordaine rapists, murders, homosexuals--he doesn't preordain sinners. He creates man weak, subjects him to vanity (moral futility) and creates a tempter and the rest is history. We are all created with weak hearts in different ways but no pre determining is necessary as man volunteers under these conditions. So we are held accountable for our actions. However God does pre ordaine and predestin our good works by the very reason of these conditions. Man must be made by God directly to do righteousness. And so God takes full responsibility for our actions. Its part of the process of becoming holy and rigtheouss as He. Its why all the glory goes to Him. All the goodness comes from the Father in whom there is no turning of shadows, including our obedience to Him.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on October 22, 2016, 01:33:29 PM
I have a lot of preconceived determinations which I hope God will use to steady and bolster me in my hour of greatest temptation, when excuses fly at me from all directions.  Dave, I think you are lying to yourself right now.  Is it right to watch porn if someone put it on for entertainment when you were visiting?  This is simple.  It's a preconceived decision that you aren't likely to have to exercise.  So what?  You'll watch the porn or you won't, you will sin or you won't, but I really hope you have an idea now, sitting on your computer at home, that one would be right and one would be wrong. And that wisdom would be useful to cling to if you found yourself in such a situation.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 22, 2016, 05:23:12 PM
I've had preconceived determinations all my life.  I still do.  But I've also found myself over and over violating those determinations.  When I say they have never worked for me, I mean just that.  If I screw up and do the right thing on occasion, it's not because I determined in my mind and doubled-down on my will power.  It's because my heart and mind were changed.  Sometimes these changes have been more or less instantaneous.  Other times, they have occurred in stages over many, many years.  Either way, it is Him working in me.     

If preconceived determinations work for you, then who am I to complain?  That's how He has formed you.  Since they don't work so well for me, who am I to complain?  Don't think I am without them.  Just understand that my "experience" with them fails on two levels.  First, that I am always RIGHT in my preconceived determinations.  Second that I can do what seems right, (and likely is) but still find myself falling short--not just in other things, but in the DOING of what seems right.  The Pharisee probably wasn't like the publican.  But he didn't repent of what he WAS.   
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lostANDfound on October 22, 2016, 06:42:10 PM
I hope you understand that I use the word 'determination' in the sense that through wisdom, through that still small voice, because of Jesus, I might determine what is right or wrong ahead of time, not that I have 'determined' my own steps. I fail over and over just as you say you do. I realize that could have been read wrong the way I wrote it.  I just don't get the way you talk, "if I screw up and do the right thing on occasion ".  I'm hoping that's  self- deprecating humour.  But what is the right thing?  You have no idea what it is ahead of time?  I might have lost the plot here. 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 22, 2016, 08:06:37 PM
Well, yes, that's sort of self-deprecating humor.  Ignore that part if you want to.  Sometimes I do the "right thing" with all that entails--the motive and the method.  But when I do, it isn't because I fastidiously planned it before hand.     

Just understand that my "experience" with them fails on two levels.  First, that I am always RIGHT in my preconceived determinations.  Second that I can do what seems right, (and likely is) but still find myself falling short--not just in other things, but in the DOING of what seems right.  The Pharisee probably wasn't like the publican.  But he didn't repent of what he WAS.


 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lauriellen on October 22, 2016, 09:00:35 PM
Just my 2 cents worth....I see God as 'first cause'.....He created us, our hearts, all the circumstances that surround us, and bound us up in sin. I can't imagine that He didn't realize that all of this would CAUSE rapists, murderers, homosexuals, etc.....so He KNEW before the foundation....so to say it wasn't 'ordained' of God is just playing with words to me. All that is, is just exactly as he INTENDED it to be. All of the determination and effort in the universe can not change what God has already determined must be. Our hearts are like rivers of water, He turns them whichever way He desires. Why do we judge another mans' servent? God is the potter, who am I to say 'Why have you made so-and-so thus?' So what is the end of the matter? Just live. Do the best you can. Ask God to guide YOUR steps and then trust Him to do so. Don't judge how God directs someone elses' steps. Stop straining at the knat in your brothers' eye and worry about the beam in your own. None of us are perfect. None of us will be in this life. Stop judging people before the time, just because they sin differently than you. If God wants something changed, He is able. My hope is that He will at the appointed time.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: indianabob on October 22, 2016, 09:31:09 PM
Well said Lauriellen,

God made us too weak to resist sin and then put the forbidden tree in the midst of the garden where we couldn't miss it and then sent Satan in to tease Eve and lead her into an "opportunity" to learn how weak she was. And Adam watched her do it... ::)
The purpose of this whole exercise is to compel us to come to understand that we NEED God in our lives to provide guidance and love and an example to TRY to follow. We then spend our whole lives, once we are chosen and given an earnest of God's spirit, repenting of our sins daily. We learn that God's spirit works when we use it, but then in short order we face other temptations and no matter how well we do there is always a greater challenge. We cannot live a sinless life apart from God's spirit in FULL measure and we will not have full measure until God changes us and we become spiritually composed persons.
I think Ray Smith once said that Jesus didn't sin because God didn't let him sin. There had to be a sinless redeemer and God doesn't play dice with HIS perfect plan. God knew from the beginning that HIS plan would be successful. There was never any question.

ole Indiana bob
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 22, 2016, 10:28:39 PM
Just my 2 cents worth....I see God as 'first cause'.....He created us, our hearts, all the circumstances that surround us, and bound us up in sin. I can't imagine that He didn't realize that all of this would CAUSE rapists, murderers, homosexuals, etc.....so He KNEW before the foundation....so to say it wasn't 'ordained' of God is just playing with words to me. All that is, is just exactly as he INTENDED it to be. All of the determination and effort in the universe can not change what God has already determined must be. Our hearts are like rivers of water, He turns them whichever way He desires. Why do we judge another mans' servent? God is the potter, who am I to say 'Why have you made so-and-so thus?' So what is the end of the matter? Just live. Do the best you can. Ask God to guide YOUR steps and then trust Him to do so. Don't judge how God directs someone elses' steps. Stop straining at the knat in your brothers' eye and worry about the beam in your own. None of us are perfect. None of us will be in this life. Stop judging people before the time, just because they sin differently than you. If God wants something changed, He is able. My hope is that He will at the appointed time.

Hi Lauri,

Ray did not believe God ordains rapists and neither do I. In scripture you will find that God predestines those in Christ Jesus and our good works. You don't find God predestining rapists or sin (and truth be told He really doesn't have to). Ray described the word 'ordain' as having a very complex and varied meaning in scripture including carrying the notion of 'blessing.' See Titus 1:5 and the call to ordain elders in every city. Ordaining rapists or sin by man means removing man's ability to choose and therefor the accountability nevermind implying God's blessing upon such acts which is blasphemous. So words matter and there is fine line in rightly understanding the Sovereignty of God. God tempts no man. God does not do evil. God is not ordaining rapists and sinners.

--------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3815.msg29733.html#msg29733

Why does God pre-ordain for certain men to rape little girls?
Why does He preordain for this to happen?
 
Lee
 

Dear Lee:
We must be careful how we use words and phrases and also be careful not
to draw fallacious conclusions from Scriptural Truths. The Bible nowhere says
that God "pre-ordained" such sins.
It says he has a fore-knowledge OF such
sins. Many people over the years have tried to force me into saying that God sins
and that God is evil, but I won't say it, because I don't believe it. God nowhere
says that He "ordains" sin, and so I don't say it either.

 
God did not "pre-ordain" me to eat Girl Scott cookies today, but I did. Man has
the ability to think, plan, create, imagine, and carry out these devised lusts of his
heart, and yes, God KNEW a long time ago just what we would do,  but nowhere
does it say that God "pre-ordained" our sins. We live and operate under law. We
automatically do certain things under certain stimuli. It does not need to be "pre-
ordained."
 


Maybe what you are really asking is why did God create humanity so that they would
sin under all of these different stimuli?  But that's a topic too big for an email. Besides,
I have covered these things many times in the articles on our site. If you look up ordain
or ordained in a concordance, you will find that God has ordained dozens of things in
the Scripture, but nowhere does it say He ordained particular sins.
God be with you,
Ray



Dear Lee:
    I understand your frustration, but you are still lacking understanding.
    When a parent gives his teenager a little slack as we say, he knows
    that to some degree his teenager will abuse that liberty and do some
    things that are wrong. When he does, is the parent at fault? Did the
    parent actually commit the sin?  Is the parent guilty of the sin? Should
    the parent go to jail for the sin of his son? It is not as cut and dry as
    you would like it to be.
    "I [the Lord] create EVIL...." (Isa. 4:7). Therefore, according to your
    simplistic approach to this subject, God IS EVIL, right?  If God creates
    evil, then HE IS EVIL, isn't He? How could it be any other way according to your
    reasoning?  If God creates a man who will rape a little girl, then GOD
    HIMSELF RAPED THAT LITTLE GIRL, right? If God planned it: He did it.
    Right?  Wrong.

    You would prefer that it be that simple and that crude, but it isn't. I am
    not denying that God had the foreknowledge of a particular rape, but I am
    not about to say that God pre-ordained that rape.
You can't conclude that:
    [1] God made humanity.  [2]  Humanity all sins.  [3] Therefore GOD IS SIN!
    The Scriptures tell us that "God CANNOT lie."  Yet we have several Scriptures
    that tell us God SENDS A LYING SPIRIT to deceive people. Therefore is God a LIAR
    when He tells us that He "CANNOT lie?"
    Let me help you with the answer:  Why is it wrong for one man to kill another
    man, but it is not wrong for God to kill a man? Several reasons:  [1] Intent of heart.
    God kills out of righteousness.  [2]  God kills for the welfare of the one He kills.
    [3] God has the power to bring back to life and rectify all wrongs and all evils,
    and is therefore FULLY JUSTIFIED IN ALL HIS WAYS.
     
    Hope the helps your understanding a little better.
    God be with you,
    Ray


Dear Sean and Forum:
 
Regarding your statement:  "Hi again Ray,
I think you've got me confused with the guy who sent the original
e-mail regarding this topic. I read it in the forum"
 
Yes, maybe I do have you confused with another. Since this hit the Forum it has been like a feeding frenzy. I have been getting all kinds of emails regarding my "contradiction." I will address this question later, as there is a whole lot more involved here than meets the eye with the word "ordained," which is used to represent nearly a dozen separate words in the Bible. When I wrote Part 2 of my "Lake of Fire' series seven years ago, I assure you that I did not have in mind that "God ORDAINED specific men to rape and cut the heads of off of specific children." That was the furtherest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
 
It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"
 
What God "ordains" in the Bible carries the connotation of almost putting His "blessing" on the thing that is ordained. But as we cannot find anywhere in the Scriptures where God specifically ordains a specific SIN of humanity, such raping a little girl, I naturally took offense when the initial question in this little debate asked, why does God ORDAIN dirty old men to rape little children? (or words to that effect). There is a difference between God "fore-knowing" something and "fore-ORDAINING" something, although many refuse to see it.
 
Hence we have such doctrines as "God cannot look upon sin," which is the result of a miss-translation in the book of Habakkuk. Likewise it is untrue that the sacrificing of children to the god Molech "never entered God's MIND."  The proper translation is "HEART." Is there a difference between mind and heart? Yes. Is there a difference between God not tempting any man, but yet sends temptations? Yes. Is there a difference between God "CANNOT lie"  and sending a "LYING spirit?" Yes there is, but I don't have time to do a whole paper on this subject right now, because I am far behind in more important things. People have tried by the hundreds and thousands to trip me up over the years to insinuate that if what I teach regarding the foreknowledge and Sovereignty of God is true, then they present a dozen ways in which that would mean God is the AUTHOR OF SIN, or that God Himself IS EVIL. If God KNOWS in advance that people will commit certain sins, then isn't he "condoning" such sin? If they are a necessary part of His Plan and Purpose do they not work and work good. Therefore are not all these things "good?" Therefore isn't raping little children and cutting their heads off, a GOOD THING?  Can you see where this kind of thinking leads?
 
I have no objection to a question like: "Why does God allow evil in the world?" I can answer that question. But, someone asks: "Why does God ORDAIN men to rape children?" that offends my spirit.. I will cover it in a future paper, but I just don't have the time right now, but I also didn't want everyone to think that I am avoiding the question or the many responses to it.   Hope you will all be patient.
 
God be with you,
Ray

My personal understanding and quiet possibly my opinion is that the words predestine, preordain, foreordain, etc... imply the direct active working of God in the individual to accomplish God's plan (by way of His holy spirit in us--He must increase but I must decrease). The reason this is done in the context of salvation is that man's condition (by God's wisdom) makes it God's responsibility to save man Himself as mankind left to its own devices is incapable of obeying God let alone saving itself. However, when it comes to rape, murder--SIN--and sinners, this very same condition that prevents man from saving himself now makes him fully capable of doing all these sinful things with little to no outside influence and thus removing the necessity for God to preordain, predestin, etc.. any of these acts or actors. As ray said, Man practically volunteer's to sin day in and day out unless God supernaturally intervenes in the individuals life. But lets suppose you do say God does these things, predestines the sins of man, then you are saying God is directly acting upon these individuals to remove their choice and accountability (in the very same way that man has no choice but to be saved by God and gets no glory for it because it is God's responsibility--God predestined the human race for salvation!) and then you have made God into an evil sinful God. Which we know He isn't so this cannot be true and it isn't. Its why you don't find the idea anywhere in scripture. God does not ordain or predestine rapists, murders, etc... He predestines the elect, He preordains them, etc.. this requires God's direct supernatural intervention otherwise there would be no elect--there would be no salvation for man.

Just a quick note, this change to the lake of fire series part 2 which ray said he would make was never completed by ray. Unfortunately the error still remains and the line still reads to this day that God forordained adam to sin. Which is simply not true as ray clarifies in his emails.

God bless,
Alex

Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: lauriellen on October 23, 2016, 04:37:53 AM
I will use Ray's own words: ..."That was the furthest thing from my mind when I was specifically countering the Christian teaching that God DOES NOT KNOW IN ADVANCE what people will think or do. However, "fore-ordained," was not a proper choice of words to be used to describe God's "foreknowledge," which is something totally different from "fore-ordained."
 It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching, but I will change out the word "fore-ordained"

Ray said "It doesn't effect the principle of the teaching".....

I'll just leave it there....
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: cheekie3 on October 23, 2016, 08:46:29 AM
Dave in Tenn -

Good Points:

I've had preconceived determinations all my life.  I still do.  But I've also found myself over and over violating those determinations.  When I say they have never worked for me, I mean just that.  If I screw up and do the right thing on occasion, it's not because I determined in my mind and doubled-down on my will power.  It's because my heart and mind were changed.  Sometimes these changes have been more or less instantaneous.  Other times, they have occurred in stages over many, many years.  Either way, it is Him working in me.     

If preconceived determinations work for you, then who am I to complain?  That's how He has formed you.  Since they don't work so well for me, who am I to complain?  Don't think I am without them.  Just understand that my "experience" with them fails on two levels.  First, that I am always RIGHT in my preconceived determinations.  Second that I can do what seems right, (and likely is) but still find myself falling short--not just in other things, but in the DOING of what seems right.  The Pharisee probably wasn't like the publican.  But he didn't repent of what he WAS.   

Perhaps, the pharisee was trained by men - and the publican knew in his heart what he was.

Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: cheekie3 on October 23, 2016, 09:33:17 AM
All -

It seems that we are not of one mind with regards the issue of Our Heavenly Father's foreknowledge verses that which He preordained.

Let us see if we can agree on the definitions:

1. Foreknowledge - He knows all that will happen, before it happens - and it cannot change.
2. Preordained - Specific events that He planned and executed as part of His Plan for Salvation.

Whether, we all agree, on the above definitions - there is another aspect that Our Heavenly Father has stated He has done:

3. Predetermined - He prepares the paths that we must all walk in (that includes everyone, not just His Elect in this Age of Grace, or those in the Old Testament who were His Prophets, etc).

I think that some of us are referring to 3 above, and I believe this gets lost in discussing either or both 1 & 2 above.

I have a son who is unhappy and as I cannot live his life for him or make his choices for him, I pray earnestly for him (and ask, seek and knock on His door, each and every day without ceasing, that He change my son and give Him Life), knowing that He prepares my sons steps that he should walk in them, and that only He can enable my son to change his attitude and lifestyle. Whatever I do, or not do, is not the issue. The way my son currently lives his life, is entirely the responsibility of Our Heavenly Father; and yes, my son, is accountable for his life. Our Heavenly Father has predetermined the steps that we all must take each and every day.

To me, 3 above, includes the steps of rapists, etc, in that, they had to walk the steps they did, and the circumstances which were outside of the rapists' control, so the choice these rapists made, could not be other than they were.

What is the end game? Will not Our Heavenly Father cleanse and save these rapists, and will they not truly repent of all their sins? Will Our Heavenly Father not heal and save those that have been raped?

We all agree that raping is sinful and wrong.

Ray stated, that given the same circumstances, we would all have done as Adam, or as Eve. If we follow that principle, could we honestly know for sure, that given the same lifestyle and circumstances of these rapists, we would not do the same.

We all accept that evil is necessary for His Plan to make us all into His image.

The Scriptures tell us that He makes vessels of Honour and Dishonour.

We know that only in Him and by Him, are any of us able to not sin.

I have recently become a Vegan, as I have discovered how the animals that we all eat are treated - and I am wondering why I did not do this earlier, as Daniel lived like this, and so did all who lived before the flood.

I have seen footage of lions, living peacefully with tigers and bears, and I have seen dogs kiss fish in lakes and vice versa - and I have seen how happy freed pigs, cows, chickens are when they are free to roam; and I am amazed by all of this - and I am wondering, perhaps, this is how we all lived prior to the flood.

I hope I have helped some of us a little, and not caused any confusion, offense, or division.

Kind Regards.

George

Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Hellisfake on October 23, 2016, 10:43:08 AM
I raised the issue of being persecuted forour faith, earlier in this forum. Here is a real life example to be persecuted . You will have to pay a price if you do not go to this wedding, are you prepared to pay it or do you want to go the comfortable way?
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on October 23, 2016, 05:54:14 PM
I'll just add before I slink away:  He'll have to pay a price if he DOES go too. 

Just me talking, but if I were to literally go against my mother and sisters...it would be because I went, not because I didn't go.  Where is the sword in that event?  Still two-edged?  I'm not going to make life decisions based on whether or not they will get me persecuted.  No matter WHAT I do, I'll catch some grief for it. 

Jesus is Lord, and He will judge rightly. 
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: octoberose on October 24, 2016, 02:15:26 AM
Thank you George- -and I relate to everything you said about your son. I'm going to start a new thread concerning veganism and Daniel so we can maybe change the subject .
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on October 24, 2016, 09:30:36 AM
Sometimes we ask the wrong question:  "Would Jesus Attend a Gay Wedding?"
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 04, 2018, 02:08:16 PM
The word "married" does not apply to two women or two men.

The concept is barbaric.  It is a great evil and will be burned out of existence by the Consuming Fire.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Prune Soleiado on October 11, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
Everybody know homosexuality is an abomination. Even the homosexual married ones. For we all are God’s creatures, we all come from God through Christ, so even non believers, deep inside their hearts, disagree with homosexuality.
They’re just being hypocrites, they lie about their acceptation of what is unacceptable. They are Satan’s children.
God’s children don’t buy this lie for the price of their nowadays judgement and salvation is too high.
God’s children live by the Word of God which is Truth.
The Word of God is Spirit because God is Spirit.
God’s children live by the Spirit of the Lord, the spirit of wisdom and the spirit of understanding, the spirit of counsel and the spirit of might, the spirit of knowledge and the spirit of the fear of the LORD.
Are we still talking spiritual ?
Are we really living in peace among non believers ?
Let our Yes be Yes and our No be No. Let’s tell frankly but with calm and love and peace to people when our hearts are troubled with their ways of living if they want to yoke us with them.
What do you fear? To be hated when you love? To be rejected when you forgive? To be mocked when you want to share?
Remember agapeo love. Remember that God « agapeo » the world so much He gave His Son as a sacrifice to show His Pure Love.
God’s children don’t have to go to a lesbian wedding if they feel it doesn’t serve the glory of their Father.
But who are we humans to choose? Are humans to decide where the spirit of the Lord should bring them?
If you have Christ in you, then He will decide for you so God is glorified. All is according to God’s marvelous plan through Christ.
God’s children are to be in the world even though they don’t belong to this world anymore. They are a living testimony of God’s salvation through Christ.
So if we refuse to participate to those pagan celebrations, we can at least tell and show pagan people we agapeo them anyway, which is serving them the exact way the good samaritan takes care of the abandoned and wounded one.
Matthew 5:14:
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. »
Let’s be that light full of God’s Love and don’t hide it when we disagree.
Title: Re: MY NIECES WEDDING!?
Post by: Rocco on October 12, 2018, 04:19:19 AM
Ask yourself this question, Where would I draw the line and absolutely would not attend? Maybe if it was at a "New Age" temple  where song and dance to mother earth were performed or maybe a Luciferian (Satanic) church or a thousand other scenarios. Our Father has drawn the line for us so we don't have to guess, the ongoing battle is in our mind which so easily justifies disobedience. King Saul faced a similar and common dilemma and failed, the result was not good; 1 Sam 15:22-23

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Let the dead bury (marry) their own dead

Harsh stuff but Jesus said take up your cross and follow him. We all will pray for you as you will for us when we face our temptations.