bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: acomplishedartis on March 18, 2014, 05:09:37 PM
-
How do you guys think that ''the lake of fire/second dead'' will be like...? I know it's purpose and who will be there (according to Scriptures)... I also know that God is not respecter of persons, therefore I just wonder if people will be going trough purification while they know that they once had a life of sin in another age, I guess they must... I guess it might be something not so different than now, I don't know, I am just curious, and I don't know if somebody of you guys might have thought about it...
-
What will life and the world be like after resurrection? I don't know.
What will the LOF be like? Paul was converted in a matter of seconds or minutes, it seems. Yes, I am quite sure we will carry memories of this life. I don't believe the 'wiping away of every tear' is done with some sort of holy tear-removal cream. It will happen (as it happens now) when we see the full (or at least fuller) measure of the working and plan of God to make mankind into His image and bring forth MANY Sons and Daughters. How can we weep when there is nothing more to weep over? He is reconciling ALL.
-
Hi Moises,
I have thought along that line, I learned from Rays writing as you have stated, God is no respecter of persons.
What the elect are going through here and now all others will go through there and then with the exception that those who come later will have the help of the elect.
We all have to learn righteousness and that takes time to do, we have to learn to hate evil and love righteousness.
I don’t believe God is going to if you will , snap His fingers and poof we are now righteous, if that were the case He would of most likely done that with Adam and eve.
It’s a long process that takes a life time to learn and then some more. I wondered how long is and age ? We know we are in the same age that goes back to Christ ministry when He was on earth in the flesh.
I don’t believe God is going to wipe out our memory because how would we know our mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers ? Also if our memory is wipe out, what purpose is there in learning righteousness as that would most likely be gone with the rest of our memory.
So I think in the next age things would most likely be the same as they are now until God closes this chapter in human history. :)
-
Although Paul was converted in an instant when he was knocked off of his horse I'm not sure that God is going to do the same thing through the LOF. Paul was the exception to the norm. And remember that although Paul was instantly converted to his new Lord he had a lifetime of suffering and hardship to follow. His conversion was only the beginning first step of his new walk. I'd imagine that those going through the lake will experience it similar. They may be converted in a very short period of time that still does nothing of why they committed the sins in the first place.
They too will have to experience first hand the beast and their inability to overcome this beast on their own. Problem for them is unlike us who are chastised of the Lord pretty much in secret when God deals with us now for them, there will be the very elect of God who are now sinless and like their Lord they will know every thought and attitude. For those in the lake there will truly be no place for them to hide. I don't know how long it will take but it wouldn't be pleasant to stand before those that know your every thought no matter how wicked and carnal it may be. Certainly won't be physical fire and torture but think of the mental anguish involved in the process for them.
-
I think the scales coming off our eyes is an instant matter for everyone. One moment you're blind and bham!, the next you see. The Lord. The only difference is that some take longer to get on that horse to Damascus :). But dealing with sin is different, as it was for Paul as well. I am sure Paul had his turn in the lof same as us. Otherwise he won't be there in the first resurrection.
So it will be the same in the next age, I think. All eyes will open when Christ returns. But there will be rebellion, the beast will continue to reign. For the elect of God, reigning with Christ, there will be no more lusts; lusts of the eye, lusts of the flesh and pride of life. And real freedom to do the things of God. No more sin. So for those who are going through the second death, purification in the lof, if you will, there will be alot more frustration in being able to see goodness and purity and godliness exemplified in completeness. Unlike in this age, when all goodness and purity and godliness is marred by sin, then there will be only perfect beauty in the saints. Then, thank goodness, there will be no need to preach the gospel, because (we) will be the gospel.
-
Moises -
Very good question.
As the Scriptures are mainly silent on this topic of the next age, perhaps we need to be mindful of all the words that are written about this - and not make any unfounded assumptions.
For instance, do we know that all the elect will be resurrected in the next age at the same time.
Will the others all be resurrected in the next age all at once.
if yes, will Planet Earth be big enough to contain all those resurrected.
Will The Lord make the Earth much larger and change our Galaxy accordingly.
Will the elect be resurrected with those that persecuted them in a phased manner in the next age.
Will there be other people born in the next age.
There is much we do not know.
We do perhaps know that the only way to become TRUE Sons of the Living GOD is by experiencing evil at the hands of all those around us and repaying them all with good.
There is a lot to think about; but I am not sure if there are many supporting Scriptures.
Regards, George.
-
Maybe this could help a bit........
The Lake of Fire!
PART IV
THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL
There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.
The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485. There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.
Here are just two examples: The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually]. For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7). And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying: "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]." It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.
In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:
THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).
COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.
THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.
THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).
"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.
JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST
The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:
"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).
At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God’s SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).
And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!
But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.
So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:
"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).
First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.
Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God’s Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).
Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:
"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).
NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!
And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God’s master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.
But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.
According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!
That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?
-
Well I try to imagine that time as when the world will be ruled in perfect Justice. To think of the difference of this age and the next is like comparing night and day, now we have Satan as the ruler of this world with crime, corruption and debauchery the rule of the day. The next age when Christ rules there will be no crime, no corruption, no wickedness of any kind, Christ ruling with a "rod of iron" will assure that.
The only suffering will be those who have lived and developed such wicked character traits that it will then go against their nature and even their desire to live in righteousness. Once somebody has lived a lifetime of learning how to deceive, seduce, manipulate, abuse or murder, that becomes who they are and I suppose it will take years of constant correction to change those ingrained character flaws. It will be a process, a tedious one as old habits die hard and as long as there is people living in the flesh the carnal (beast) nature will be present, though not allowed to rule as it does now.
Another thing I imagine in the next age is thinking of all those righteous people (relatively) who have lived through the centuries raised back to physical life, I can see how they would be placed as the physical rulers of the land. The Bible does mention some righteous kings over Israel, think how many more there must be, not mentioned in the Bible, who have lived... think of having the prophets and patriarchs living and ruling.
It will be a long process, but a guaranteed good outcome.
Eze 34:22 I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep.
v. 23 And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd.
v. 24 And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken.
v. 25 "I will make with them a covenant of peace and banish wild beasts from the land, so that they may dwell securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
v. 26 And I will make them and the places all around my hill a blessing, and I will send down the showers in their season; they shall be showers of blessing.
v. 27 And the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase, and they shall be secure in their land. And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke, and deliver them from the hand of those who enslaved them.
v. 28 They shall no more be a prey to the nations, nor shall the beasts of the land devour them. They shall dwell securely, and none shall make them afraid.
v. 29 And I will provide for them renowned plantations so that they shall no more be consumed with hunger in the land, and no longer suffer the reproach of the nations.
v. 30 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Lord GOD.
v. 31 And you are my sheep, human sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Lord GOD."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Kat. Your post let me thinking for a while. Seems like you brought something refreshing and interesting to this topic.
It's quate an good thought that in the next age things will be not so hard for us, rather things will be harder for them. I could imagine a change of arrangements, the few having the easy way and the many struggling so hard. God is like the best movie maker, ever...
Therefore I look forward for the next age to come. This life is so hard now; if you want to have a clean conscience and try to please our Heavenly Father.
-
God created the human race in vanity, its why everyone sin in the first place, my question is this, will God ever undo the way He has made us ?
Will God remake the human race in such a way that temptation no longer exist ? Or will temptation always exist and will learning always be difficult.
Also in the next age those who were not chosen by God in this age will still be the same sinners they were before the resurrection ,so are the elect subjected to being murdered ? Having things stolen from them?
I understand in the conclusion of all things all will be good but until the conclusion, can the elect expect to live with the wickedness and evil more or less of what things are today or this side of the resurrection is probably the thing to say?
-
Rick, your comments seems to question whether Christ has the power to rule the world and keep the peace as He claims He will in the next age. He is God over this creation with ALL authority in heaven and earth (Mat 28:18), certainly He can manage the humans He created.
You underestimate Christ's preparation to manage the wicked, I believe that Christ has everything under control now (this age is exactly what it is suppose to be) and certainly will in the next age as well.
If you are thinking that the 'few' don't seem to be enough to control the vast number of humans there will be. well not only will there be the risen elect, who I believe will be given great power to rule with Christ, but did you know there is a great host of angels that serve Him as well and some of them are called His elect angels?
1Ti 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that you guard these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.
Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
v. 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
How could a human murder a person who has been raised to immortality? The elect will have a very different existence than they have now, they will rule with the power of Christ and will fear nothing on earth... but the wicked will certainly fear them. Look at this chapter in Joel, I think it is speaking of the elect in the next age. Does it sound like they are worried about the wicked?
Joe 2:1 Blow a ram's horn in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble. For the day of Jehovah comes, for it is near at hand;
v. 2 a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains; a great people and a strong people; there has not been ever the like, nor shall there ever be again, even to the years of many generations.
v. 3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness. Yes, and nothing shall escape them.
v. 4 As the appearance of horses is its appearance; and as war horses, so they run.
v. 5 They shall leap like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, like a strong people set in battle order.
v. 6 Before their face the people shall be much pained; all faces shall gather blackness.
v. 7 They shall run like mighty ones. They shall climb the wall like men of war, and they shall march each one on his way, and they shall not break their ranks.
v. 8 And each one shall not press his brother; they each go in his paths. And if they fall behind their weapons, they shall not be cut off.
v. 9 They shall rush on the city; they shall run on the wall; they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
v. 10 The earth shall tremble before them; the heavens shall shake. The sun and the moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.
v. 11 And Jehovah shall utter His voice before His army; for His camp is very great; for strong is He who does His Word. For the day of Jehovah is great and very terrible; and who can stand it?
Hope you can see what I am saying.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Hi Kat,
I’m not questioning the authority or supremacy of our Lord Christ to do all He said He would do I was wondering because in the next age sin will still be inherit in those being saved through the lake of fire.
My point is God who is no respecter of persons are putting the elect through the things we must endure here and now would God not do also likewise in the next age for those who are on their way to salvation through the same things.
However after reading the verses you laid out it seems as things will be different in the next age as Christ will intervene in all things.
-
Read a description of the Cherubim in the Scriptures.
Give me two of them and I'll take on any army or armies of bad boys in the world.
-
Hi John,
I believe the number of men they can kill is like 186,000 at the snap of a finger if my memory serves me well.
The idea is to convert people into the children of God. There is no purpose in killing people that need to learn righteousness and besides Christ is more than able to convert all but having said that are people to be repeatedly resurrected for ones infraction in the next age?
Obviously God already has everything worked out and nothing shall stray from His intentions and plan of salvation for all.
My point was in the next age there will be more sinners than elect and I’m assuming were there is sin there is also strife, just wondering how the elect will be affected. :-\
-
Hi John,
I believe the number of men they can kill is like 186,000 at the snap of a finger if my memory serves me well.
The idea is to convert people into the children of God. There is no purpose in killing people that need to learn righteousness and besides Christ is more than able to convert all but having said that are people to be repeatedly resurrected for ones infraction in the next age?
Obviously God already has everything worked out and nothing shall stray from His intentions and plan of salvation for all.
My point was in the next age there will be more sinners than elect and I’m assuming were there is sin there is also strife, just wondering how the elect will be affected. :-\
Thanks for the sermon. ::)
When we are born again of the Spirit, we will be like the wind. No need for us to be affected by human sinners. 8)
-
I wouldn't call it a sermon lol but I agree with your description. Thanks ;D
-
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
This is speaking of physical death and we only have to go through that "once." Now in the next age it is the beast through "judgment" that must die - the second death.
I believe the elect will be raised "like" Christ, or Christ will fully function in them, so that each of them will be capable of serving in whatever way He wants to use them. There will be no limitation in what the elect are able to do and just as Christ cannot be deceived or overpowered or threatened in any way, so the wicked will have no advantage whatsoever. The number of elect is not what matters (God knows the perfect number of them to prepare), their power and authority will be absolute, under Christ of course. Jesus knew what people were thinking, there can be no strife if wicked thoughts are not allowed to take root and conceive sin. Not that there will be no sin, but it will be so closely moderated and corrected quickly.
Anyway those are some of my thoughts on the elect ruling over the wicked.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
How do you guys think that ''the lake of fire/second dead'' will be like...? I know it's purpose and who will be there (according to Scriptures)... I also know that God is not respecter of persons, therefore I just wonder if people will be going trough purification while they know that they once had a life of sin in another age, I guess they must... I guess it might be something not so different than now, I don't know, I am just curious, and I don't know if somebody of you guys might have thought about it...
If you are of the elect you will not be hurt but refined. What good you do, you will do better.
Remember Jesus said we will do greater things than the miracles he performed. One of those great things is teaching righteousness. Directing people to it. I think you know this Moises!
Also my personal thoughts on what life will be like leads me to these questions:
Spiritual resurrection?
Physical resurrection?
In regards to spiritual resurrection:
If I will be ruling and reigning with Christ that means I am part of the governing powers(principalities) of the universe. That's big responsibility! But what will my role be? At my resurrection will I be equipped enough to begin the teaching process? Jesus said we must be born again to the spirit. Will I be a spiritual babe learning all I need to learn to be able to rule with my lord? Honestly....Do you think at your death you have learned all you need to to be able to teach or guide someone to perfection? Spiritual resurrection seems more a mystery to me than physical but less complicated in my limited mind. Remember free will does not exist. We will guide, direct, counsel, and inspire people through circumstances that will lead them to perfection. Mind boggling when I think about it but that's the glory of such a position with Christ.
In regards to physical resurrection:
Now this is complicated to me! Although I don't know the means of a physical being becoming a spiritual being but sense the wicked will be resurrected to a physical life, my question is how??
I'm unsure if Christ's resurrection serves as the example only because his body didn't have time to decay but I also believe he received a spiritual glorious body that manifest into the visible. An example of what we might be able to do.
But what of the wicked. Even reading Ray's article helped little. Its here: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html
There are a few ways for me to think about physical resurrection:
As some are long gone and are even now dust, how will there bodies be returned? Is the flesh even important for a return? We are not ourselves until flesh and spirit become a living soul. This boggles my mind even more so than spiritual resurrection! How will this be? Will my bones return to me? My flesh too? HOW!LOL! I just don't know. All we seem to have is the valley of dry bones.
I can only think sometimes about how long this process may occur. If it took billions of years to get where we are now, how much more till God is all in all?
Just my thoughts.
Hope you guys can see where I'm coming from.
Nice topic Moises!
Antaiwan
-
Akira, there have been other discussions about how 'ready' the elect will be. I'm not saying that out of any aversion to having another one, but to say that THOSE made me think. The best I've come up with is in-line with what you shared. Adding 'you must be born again' to 'you must become as a little child' to enter the kingdom (and many other passages as well) leads me to believe that there will still be 'growing' to do in resurrection. The elect will have finally been fully "delivered from this body of death", and all that we've lived through and learned will be ready to put to perfect use according to His workmanship in us, but with the way I'm thinking now, I'd be right disappointed if there wasn't tons more to live and learn. :D That's the joy of this journey so far, and I'm not sure I'd even WANT to give that up.
-
That's exactly how I feel Dave!
There is so much to learn and so much life to live. I Don't want the journey to end. From our perspective it won't.
We won't know death but life.
Think about the wisdom it takes to truly shape another's life toward a life like Christ! That's humbling.
Also I don't want to beat a dead horse if all this has been discussed before. Its been a great while since I been involved on the forum.
Rays talks on what God was doing before creation is what gets me thinking.
-
That too, my friend. I've missed your company here, A.
My goodness, if we can't talk about THIS, what can we talk about? ;D
-
Hi Antaiwan, good to hear from you. I think I have a little bit different take on this. Yes we will continue to learn and grow in knowledge always, but when resurrected into a glorious spiritual body the elect will become 'one' with God. So from then on the Holy Spirit will be indwelling in the elect in full power, not just an earnest like now. Just as Christ could do no wrong and always knew and preformed the will of the Father, so will the elect.
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
The elect will have lost the carnal flesh, decreased completely, and will be perfectly in tune, one, with God. Of course there will be much the elect will come to realize, but not by their own strength, we are nothing on our own, remember He called out the "God has chosen the base things of the world... so that no flesh should glory in His presence" (1 Cor 1:28-29). They will not function as individuals, trying to figure out what they should do, they will be ONE with God and will do His will perfectly.
John 17:22 And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one,
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.
When you look at Christ returning to earth with His army, they will not be incompetent in any way at all. Christ and the elect will take this world by storm and turn everything on it's ear.
Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
v. 15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
The elect will not need to learn how to rule, the Spirit of God working in them will lead them in everything they do.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
A link to the study Akira mentioned...at least I think it is this one:
http://bible-truths.com/video/WhereGodsKnowledgeL.wmv This is a video file.
Paul said:
Rom 7:18-25 ...for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find, for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise. And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present, for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members. A wretched man I am! Who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord...
Having experienced this failure and frustration NOT to be able to "DO the GOOD he would", I reckon that Paul is saying once he is "delivered out of the body of this death" in RESURRECTION, he WILL be able to do the Good that's is in his or her mind to do without failure and frustration. The same Jesus Christ our Lord who made him an overcomer in his life will make him an overcomer over this body and death itself.
Sin is more than a few bad habits to me. Paul's life was exemplary. But he did have to suffer (albeit with joy in faith at his suffering), and the beginning of his suffering was right at the point of his conversion.
Sounds mighty familiar to me.
-
I missed being here and talking about this!
Kat I don't disagree with you. It just seems that its about time, a new environment and new abilities. Is anything really automatic not learned?
Sure the spirit will guide us into all things but I doubt half prepared for the battle. I guess I think this way because of this question:
What does being in a spiritual body entail?
Will the same knowledge and understanding be imparted to me that Christ has?
Also what Dave mentioned is noteworthy,
Do giving up habits make us worthy to rule in the kingdom?
These attributes of a spiritual body that Ray mentions are also worthy to note:
Taken from 1 Corinthians 15
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘VIOLENCE’ ONLY WHEN REFERENCING AN CARNAL PERSON), MIGHTY (WONDERFUL) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Its hard for me to believe I will possess a number of these the day of my spiritual birth.
Also Dave, that was the teaching I was eluding too. Ray asked what did Jesus do to gain his glory?
I think this is what Ray wanted to find out about the Father and Son. He wanted more to understand the relationship between them.
Will we have to do a little more suffering? I don't know but makes sense.
-
These attributes of a spiritual body that Ray mentions are also worthy to note:
Taken from 1 Corinthians 15
INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH, (‘VIOLENCE’ ONLY WHEN REFERENCING AN CARNAL PERSON), MIGHTY (WONDERFUL) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL
Its hard for me to believe I will possess a number of these the day of my spiritual birth.
Antaiwan,
The very traits you listed, I believe God's Elect will possess upon their resurrection. Do not underestimate the power of this transformation from "flesh and blood" to a "spiritual being." The scriptures tell us that those who inherit God's Kingdom (His Elect) will be glorified, raised incorruptible, immortal, and conformed to the image of Christ.
Here are just a few scriptures, but there are many more:
1Cor.15:52-53 - "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet; for it shall sound, and, the dead, shall be raised incorruptible, and we, shall be changed. For this corruptible must needs clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this mortal, clothe itself with immortality.
Phil.3:21 - "Who will transfigure our humbled body into conformity with His glorified body, according to the energy wherewith he is able even to subdue, unto himself, all things."
Romans 8:29 - "For, whom he fore-approved, he also fore-appointed to be conformed unto the image of His Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren,"
-
Well Antaiwan, to me it is not a question of the elect developing the ability to rule the world with Christ now or later... How could they ever hope to develop such an ability (the quality of being able: power, skill) accept it is given to them, a gift, by/through Christ? Isn't everything we have a gift from God.
But I think I know what you are saying... won't the elect have to learn how to rule? I really don't think that's how it works.
1Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the words of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as of the ability which God gives, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory, and the might forever and ever. Amen.
When the elect rule it will be to the glory of God 'through' Jesus Christ, the person is not able to bring any ability, power or even knowledge into the equation. This life is to gain a backdrop from this experience we are having in this physical life, for our own understanding and so we relate to the people to be ruled in the next age. We are gaining a knowledge of how good and evil works and the consequences, learning humility, etc. These things are the basics we need, but I think it's all God needs to use the elect to do the work He desires to do 'through' them in the next age.
Yes they will keep their personality, He is creating us all into unique individuals, I believe that is an important part of what He is accomplishing with the human race. To think that being 'one' with God is dissolving into a single all powerful entity is entirely wrong, and totally nullifies this individuality that God is accomplishing in us in this life.
But just as Christ could do nothing of His own self, neither can the elect do anything without Christ. EVERYTHING the elect do when ruling is to the glory of God, and His work in/through them will be perfect, as they will have been perfected in resurrection. That's what it means by, " He must increase, but I must decrease." We must release all of this carnality - enmity against God, that will only happen at resurrection into spirit.
John 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.
John 15:5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Maybe it's a little hard to face the idea that we have to release or have all of our 'own' will (actually carnality) removed, after all that's all we know right now. But when God abides in us it full power, I do not think we can comprehend how much of a glorious thing that will be.
1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
v. 17 In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that as He is, so also we are in this world.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Antaiwan, I brought up the thing about 'bad habits' to try to shake loose the idea from the understanding of that scripture that Paul is talking about his 'bad habits'.
I think it's a given that the elect are not going to rule with a WILL to do evil, but with a WILL to do good. That's a will subject to Sovereign God, and with the character-traits of God. According to Paul, he had a vision of the seventh heaven. Me? I don't even know what that means...but I strongly suspect it is far, far beyond the christian heaven of hard rock candy mountain and an eternity of playing golf with Uncle Bony. He said of his vision that it was 'unlawful' or 'inexpedient' to utter. He endured inordinate blows to keep him humble over what he had been shown.
Now, Paul had not just THIS vision, but a whole boatload of deep spiritual truths. He did his utmost to preach them, LIVE THEM, and protect them. But he could not do ALL that was in his heart and mind to do. Why not? Because 'falling short' is what we do. It ain't always gonna be this way.
Ray isn't a bible character, so maybe there's something to learn from him as well without theological baggage. Ray had a wealth of spiritual truths (gathered not just from study, but from the life experiences which the Lord put him through) and did his utmost to teach them, live them, and protect them. But you don't have to go very far reading in the email section or sometimes on the forum how 'exceedingly difficult' (the point of impossibility) it was for Ray to 'do the good which he willed/wanted to' for any number of reasons...not least of which is that the Lord Himself must open/unclose eyes and give understanding.
That's the 'phenomenon' I think Paul is talking about, at least the major part of it. I could use my own self as a small example, except the will/desire to do good is not always in me, and neither is the will/desire to not do evil. It ain't always gonna be this way, either.
-
wow, I had not been able to come to see the forum lately, seems like you guys are having a great conversation.
Kat, I wish someday be able to talk with you personally. By the way your last post have some very good points, also Rene's.
Ataiwan, I am glad you liked the topic. If you don't feel right now that you are ready to rule with Christ, you are not alone on it, but we will have to hold our breath and wait until we are death, God is very good to make big changes in people with little time (the best example is Paul). I am glad I am only 27 years old, sometimes I feel that I am learning and growing and other times I don't feel so inspired. Also sometimes I feel as if had already live many lives (in my own life) because of the very different life experiences that I have had on the last 10 years.
The more a try to learn key verses, the more I realize that we are to become more like Jesus, ...and, how was Jesus? He was humble... so I guess that's what I need and what I should be looking for... reminds me some verse in Ec. about we humans having an experience of evil so that we can learn humility.
Probably God doesn't need to show us all the technical aspects of ruling, and he just desire a humble heart ready to follow him and say; here I am, what's next...
(personally, I just wish I could find a humble girl I could marry and be more humble myself--usually people tends to relate lack of physical objects with humility, but I believe that's wrong. When talking about true humility, objects have no place on the equation,, well you guys surely already know about it, I just mention it because this is something that I have been learning lately and wanted to share...)
Moises