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Title: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 22, 2007, 04:25:22 PM: I ask a fellow church goer that question. She couldn't come up with one truth.
She tried though. She said that God is love. God is merciful.God is forgiving. I then said that Christendom of today says these things, but it speaks in self contradictions.

It is like if I were to say - I can't type a word in English - you would say you just did. They say that God is love and merciful ,but then they have a God who created hell and would put billions of beings He created in there for eternity torturing them with no hope of ever getting out. Are these the actions of a merciful, loving, and forgiving God ? If I were found out by the police to have tortured and locked up one person in a basement- I would be thrown in prison and would I be a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize or some kind of humanitarian award ? Yet when their God does this to billions it is fine. Does that make sense ?

So my question here is if there is any truth that Christendom teaches which is not contradictory let me know. They got to have something right.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: chav on May 22, 2007, 04:33:28 PM: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?

this statement seems a bit like an oxymoron to me

Can a polluted stream produce clear water ?

cheers

Dave UK
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 22, 2007, 04:36:27 PM: I think what is right is Jesus dying for our sins. His mercy and grace on us all. Helping others no matter what and basically treating others like you wanted to be treated. I don't think all churches are like this but the one I go to is. I think too it is a great time set aside for singing praise to God and learning about the walk on this earth that Jesus walked and how we should try to do the same. Hope this is not offensive. I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.
Seminole
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 22, 2007, 04:41:03 PM: Clever Chav. ::)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Craig on May 22, 2007, 04:45:25 PM: Quote
I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.

Seminole, don't worry about the church stuff. Many on this forum have yet to be called out. Yes, Ray teaches that the church is the harlot/babylon, but that does not make the people there, enemies. Those who have left the church understand it all to well, you can't say anything we don't already know.

Study deeply into the Word and pray for guidance, and if you are called out then be ready to answer.

Blessing
Craig
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 22, 2007, 05:05:51 PM: Quote from: seminole on May 22, 2007, 04:36:27 PM
I think what is right is Jesus dying for our sins. His mercy and grace on us all. Helping others no matter what and basically treating others like you wanted to be treated. I don't think all churches are like this but the one I go to is. I think too it is a great time set aside for singing praise to God and learning about the walk on this earth that Jesus walked and how we should try to do the same. Hope this is not offensive. I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.
Seminole

--------------------------------

Thanks for responding. I think yes they will say Jesus died for all of our sins. But if billions will not be saved in the end, but will spend eternity in hell with no hope of getting out while a few end up floating in clouds in heaven watching the events below, then to me what difference does it make to the billions that Jesus died for the sins of the world. It's meaningless.

His mercy and grace on us all you say. Will the billions say that while being made extra crispy from the heat in hell ? Is that God's mercy and grace on us all?
Then you say treating others how you want to be treated. Does Christendom really love their enemies ? Do good to those who persecute you ? I have been kicked out of a few churches in my time for not agreeing with their doctrines and traditions of men. See what happens when they find out you don't believe in free will, hell, tithing, the set up of the modern clergy, the trinity etc. You aren't going to get love and understanding. You're going to get the boot.

You say we should try to do the same as far as the way Jesus walked etc. I have learned that the Christian life is unlivable. Really ! I have tried along with many others and failed. It is not I who live but Christ that lives in me. We must die to the flesh. So many ( including me ) tried to live and imitate Christ by the flesh and it doesn't work. I can't and will never be like Tiger Woods on the golf course. How can I even begin to think I can be like Jesus in life. I am slowly being transformed to Christ likeness and it has everything to do with Him. When I finally gave up He took over.

Singing praises ? Do we know what we are singing about ? Half the time when I went to the church building I didn't understand what I was singing about. How would God like it if we all sang that end of the verse in one of the hymns that said "Blessed Trinity. " If the trinity doctrine isn't true. Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 22, 2007, 05:13:36 PM: I wanted to add one thing which is very important. I now see the blindness of others. I was there and I still have my blind spots I am sure.

I feel for them. They don't know what they are doing.They really think they are right and know. And I see it is by God's grace that I do see. And I have talked to a few that have been very receptive and open and God has and is using me and that is a blessing. I am thankful that God is revealing His truths to me. And I in turn will share with others if they ask or seem open. God is the one that opens the eyes and ears.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Joey Porter on May 22, 2007, 10:40:18 PM: I think the mainstream church does teach some truths but they are not whole truths because they're sprinkled with error.

For instance - The church certainly believes in the resurrection of Christ - but they don't really believe He actually died.

Many churches believe and teach that God is sovereign but also teach that man has free will.

Conversely, many believe in and preach God's sovereignty and man's lack of free will, but they also believe He has pre-ordained the majority of mankind to be tormented forever. Yet they insist He is love.

And so forth and so on.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 23, 2007, 01:45:04 AM: Good points made.

I look at it this way. Take rat poison for example. They say that 98 % of it's contents are good for you and won't hurt you. It's the 2% in it that will kill you.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: jER on May 23, 2007, 05:09:40 AM: I have often thought that 66.6 percent of what is taught in a church building per se, is of man, and not of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, they wear nice sweaters made of sheep’s wool.

Could it be the church has not only lost its ability to discern truth from error, but also to discern the true sheep from the wolves?

“Man cannot comprehend the existence of error; when he is too deeply immersed in it.”

Sort of like the frog in the water.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Bradigans on May 23, 2007, 06:35:12 AM: Galatians 5:9 says - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

This is how Satan got Eve...
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mari_et_pere on May 23, 2007, 11:39:11 AM: Quote
Could it be the church has not only lost its ability to discern truth from error, but also to discern the true sheep from the wolves?

Heck yes! I can remember a time that I was attending my "non-demoninational" church, and they thought I was just absolutely ON FIRE FOR GOD. SUCH A BLESSING. A GREAT MAN OF GOD. But I wasn't any of those, really. I was totally stagnate, just like them. They don't know what they're talking about. Many of them don't even know what they believe. It makes me so sad that I can't pull my wife out of there.

Matt
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Kat on May 23, 2007, 01:17:30 PM: I think the churches knowledge of Christ is very shallow. They do have a degree of comprehension, but it is greatly limited by what the carnal mind can see. They build their religion on their lack of knowledge, and that has produced the many churches, operated by the doctrines of men. I was thinking it is sort of like a Christian country club. But that is the way God caused it to be, and it is where we first hear of Christ.
It is that blindness that we all had to go through, as a part of the process to learn whatever God is teaching by that experience.
God is only opening the eyes of a very few, for a special purpose in His plan. God blinded the world and He is going to keep it that way, until this age ends at the return of Christ.
We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is. We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them. We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth. But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another. So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: skydreamers on May 23, 2007, 01:26:45 PM: Quote
We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is. We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them. We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth. But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another. So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

Amen to that!

Peace,
Diana
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 23, 2007, 04:31:48 PM: Quote from: Kat on May 23, 2007, 01:17:30 PM

I think the churches knowledge of Christ is very shallow. They do have a degree of comprehension, but it is greatly limited by what the carnal mind can see. They build their religion on their lack of knowledge, and that has produced the many churches, operated by the doctrines of men. I was thinking it is sort of like a Christian country club. But that is the way God caused it to be, and it is where we first here of Christ.
It is that blindness that we all had to go through, as a part of the process to learn whatever God is teaching by that experience.

God is only opening the eyes of a very few, for a special purpose in His plan. God blinded the world and He is going to keep it that way, until this age ends at the return of Christ.
We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is. We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them. We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth. But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another. So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well said Kat.

I at one time thought the theologians had the truth. Well one doesn't get doctorate degrees in theology and philosophy unless one studies. So I went after these teachers. I took courses and had bought over a thousand books and I don't mean the pop Christian books. And I would get to a point where I thought I was getting truth and knowledge of God etc. I wanted to be smart for God so He could use me. Then I would look at my life and see that it was a mess. I was carnal and couldn't at all live the Christian life. I was a failure.I was still a slave to my passions and the flesh. But I knew a lot and spent much time accumulating knowledge and debating the skeptics and unbelievers. I was doing this all for God.

But I realized one thing. There is always someone smarter than you. And I ran into some tough skeptics.This was humbling. And all this studying was exhausting. I wasn't a person anymore but a walking texbook of facts and arguments. So I quit the knowledge thing for awhile and God showed me my lifestyle was the key. If my life didn't reflect Christ then all the knowledge don't mean a thing. If Christ wasn't real in transforming me and I had very little fruit showing in my life then what good is all this knowledge.

And in the process I learned about dying to the flesh. Christ living in me. And learned about God's love for me was not dependent on my performance. Also in the journey most of what I learned I have found to be false.You know the tune- free will, hell , and etc. Spending years learning theology and apologetics from the best professors around I have discarded. I will tell you why. Because I started to depend on my logic and arguments to win someone over. I had pride thinking I knew more than the average person and looking at people who didn't believe like I do as a potential debate. Relying on my understanding. So it was game of intellectual gymnastics. Then God showed me that it was His Spirit that opens the eyes of the blind and gives understanding. Not me. Not my arguments and skill.

So much in christendom is head knowledge. Or if not that then it's a belief relying on emotions. The truthfulness of the gospel isn't because it gives you the warm fuzzies. Did Paul ever say the gospel is true because it makes him feel good or because he feels it's true ?

Don't get me wrong- I am not saying apologetics and all that is wrong. I know a lot of how to defend the gospel and answer objections etc. But I don't rely on that knowledge. If God brings something to my mind then so be it. But I look at people as people now. Not as someone to debate with or argue with into the Kingdom. I see a person as one who is loved by God and in the process. And the most important thing is that they see the Christ in me and not me.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 23, 2007, 05:21:23 PM: That kind of felt like walking into hell! That is why I fear saying anything about the church. I do believe that we should do the best we can to live as Jesus did. Not to say we do it but He does it through us when we push our own human-ness out of the way. We can do nothing good but it is Jesus who can do good through us. I know what songs of praise are about where I go. I understand the words. We don't do what some call"high church". Ours is a group of mostly poor people who have been or are being delivered from alcohol, drugs and anything else you can think of. All we want to do is try to show the love of Jesus regardless of circumstances. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the person who wrote after my response, it was a terrible thing to get thrown out of your church and I am sorry you went through that. I can understand your anger. That is about all I have to say about any of this topic.
Seminole
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 23, 2007, 05:31:34 PM: forgot to say, we do believe Jesus physically died. We believe He resurrected too and hung out for a while with people but they couldn't touch Him. Then after that God sent the Comforter to be with us. That is what the Bible says. There in the Bible too it says no more tears and crying. Seems to me that if you believe in hell, you wouldn't be looking at people burning while you are in heaven. That would bring tears I think.
Seminole
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 24, 2007, 11:43:29 AM: I am interested to see the thoughts on this. Any???
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 24, 2007, 01:29:04 PM: Hell would only make sense if there was an end and the purpose of it would be for the betterment of the person. It would make sense if hell was the Lake Of Fire but it isn't. The concept of hell is fear based and a demonstration of conditional love not agape love. How could anyone sit in heaven and look down on billions of people screaming their heads off in torment and shed no tears. Let's be real . Could you picture a loved one for example a parent or a spouse being tortured and feel good about it ? A professor said in response to my question - there are infinite consequences to man's finite actions. Wow ! That just made me feel so much
better (sarcasm). How sick of an answer now that I see. I honestly can't see singing praises to a God that sends people to hell. How can Christendom sing praises ? If I were to stand up and sing praises to a Hitler or a Stalin would that be acceptable ? Of course not. That would be sick. They gave the orders to have millions tortured and killed. Yet Christendom's sings praises to a god of their making who has billions locked up and tortured forever and throws away the key and that is worse. Let me add and claims to be the Savior of all mankind.

I say this all not telling anyone here what they don't know already. Kat is right in that Christendom is blinded. One must be blind not to see this contradiction. And we don't hate the church. How can you hate someone who is blind ? No one in his right mind would yell at Stevie Wonder for not seeing. And I was there and would still be sick and blind if it wasn't for God's mercy and grace.

And Mari_ et _pere is right in that they just don't know.

I used to attend large Pentecostal churches in the past where there would be prophesying to the congregation. You know the tune - the pastor would speak in tongues and there would be interpretation. And then God would speak through a person to the congregation. And you notice when God speaks He says nothing about the false teachings from the pulpit. There was never a prophecy with God saying - " Why do you teach this doctrine of hell fire when I have not spoken of it. " The prophecies I heard I never was impressed with. There were always so general. Never specific. And if it was God speaking why didn't anyone write it down word for word ? This is a true story and I was there -there was one time when the interpretation was given and ended with " God shall lead His people as Moses led the animals into the ark. " And then the interpreter sat down. And the audience was silent. 10 seconds later he stood up and said " I meant Noah. " Go figure.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: jackson on May 24, 2007, 01:49:02 PM: As concerning the original question... "Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?" I find the answer to be a resounding YES, YES, YES!!! After all that is where I'm from, How about you?

To paraphrase Paul: "When I was a child I played with childish toys and drank from mothers milk. But now as a mature son of God I have put away those childish toys and now drink from the cup of life."

My Father used the First Baptist Church in Houston, Mississippi as a foundation on which to build His Church in me. I have nothing but love for those people and that time in my life.

But now as the complete truth has been revealed, my Father has seen fit to bring me out of that environment. My taste have matured beyond that of mothers milk.

As for the people still in the church of man, well, I have this notion of them as "little brothers and sisters". God the Father has intrusted us (the older more mature sibling) to look after the younger ones. But as we are still siblings it is not for us to be chastising or condesending to them (assuming our Father loves us more).

So, yes I do believe a great deal of good comes from the church of man. It is after all, as I said before, God's will; and we all know how that works.

In His Grace,
Jackson
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 24, 2007, 02:35:04 PM: I have to think about what you said.

But mother's milk is not what is giving in the church. Mother's milk is good for you and always will be. We mature as you said but we don't quit drinking mother's milk because it is bad. But what the church teaches and what it gives you is bad. The milk that is good from the church is that is the introduction to God. That there is a God who exist and the Bible is the Word of God etc.

I think a better analogy is that today's kids and youth eat McDonald's or fast food. I do sometimes I admit when my wife isn't looking ( smile). It takes good and it's quick. But we know as mature adults that is terrible for you. Cokes and processed foods etc are bad. Ever see the movie about the guy who ate McDonalds for a month and what happened to him ?

So we move from eating the fast foods to eating raw vegetables, and if we eat meat that is organic not shot up with chemicals and hormones and we drink juices instead of cokes etc. And my wife and I eat a lot healthier. Why ? Because we have learned that fast food and most of what the masses eat is horrible for your health. My wife is in the medical field and lectures on diabetes and health issues.

So yes good comes from fast foods. It fills you up. It taste good at times. The cokes satisfies your thirst. But it is bad for you. And the teens now are getting diabetes, coming down with cancer. The doctrines of the church are the fast processed foods.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: YellowStone on May 24, 2007, 03:02:56 PM: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?

Is this a trick question? ;D

I ask because I do not think anyone got it? :D

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Is there any truths coming out of the church. YOU BET! :D The Spirit of Truth is dragging people out. What could be more truthful than that? :)

I think the question was meant as: "Is the church teaching any truth?"

Just a little humor to brighten a day. :)

Love to all in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Redbird on May 24, 2007, 03:18:25 PM: :) ;D That's good Darren :) ;D
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: skydreamers on May 24, 2007, 05:02:11 PM: Hebrews 5:11-6:2
11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

How many people in the church even understand the truth in depth about "the resurrection of the dead" or even "eternal judgment"? Yet the Hebrew writer calls these things the "elementary doctrine of Christ". So it almost seems to me that even when we are called out of the Church and it's "false doctrines" we are most of us still in need of milk; we are in need of someone to teach us AGAIN the basic oracles of God. When we come out of mystery Babylon, we are just beginning to understand for example, what the resurrection of the dead is all about, and what eternal (aionios judgment) is, which I think is referring to "universal salvation". It is in aionios judgment that the rest of the world is being brought to salvation....So the doctrine of universal salvation is EVEN YET the elementary teachings (milk) of the word. We have yet to go even far beyond understanding these things before we are partaking of the meat of the word. So coming out of the church, seeing the truths of universal salvation and that the dead sleep, and maybe even the truth of free will....is still, it seems to me, considered "milk".

I heard Ray say in an audio (sorry, can't remember which one) that he understood these truths many years ago but he was still intensely struggling with sin, and so he likely would not have considered himself back then as having "powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil". It has still taken him many years of prayer and study to get to where he is now, and through him we are only beginning to be exposed to the hidden truths (the meat) of God's word. No offense to anyone, (and I include myself in this) but I think it is a rare few even here on this forum that are understanding the "meat". That is why we are in need of someone sent by God to teach us.

So my thought is then: milk or meat, we are all brothers and sisters....

Peace,
Diana
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: rk12201960 on May 24, 2007, 05:40:07 PM: 8)
I would say there are truths in the church. as they do know who Jesus is, but the one thing they don't have is GODS SPIRIT.

If you are here that Spirit has called you here. this is the place of the elect in training as I can not say that we are the elect because till the end we're still under test and judgement.

I learned some things of value in satans church as they did come from the bible but ,he does lie and acts as if he is with God but, that is his job to misdirect and confuse.

The truth I've learned in Rays papers and backed up by scripture is what I base my answers and understanding on. there are things I had to change in my understanding (and they are plenty) but there is also things I've learned that are true to light in Gods word before God lead me here. Remember God has control of all things he desires.

Just my understanding,
Randy
;D 8) ;D
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: jackson on May 24, 2007, 05:50:55 PM: Quote
Is there any truths coming out of the church. YOU BET! :D The Spirit of Truth is dragging people out. What could be more truthful than that? :)

I think the question was meant as: "Is the church teaching any truth?"

This was the point I was trying to make. Sorry for my ambiguity.

Not only that, but also although we have been called out of the church we are not to smit our brothers and sister still being held in the church.

I think we are all of the same mind on this; just looking at it from different perspectives. 8)

Jackson
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: cherokee on May 24, 2007, 06:21:45 PM: I would also have to say there are truths in the church.

This is how I have come to understand it.

In the church one learns half(milk) truths.

Once we are dragged out we learn whole(meat) truths.

I just don't think I would appreciate as much the truths(good) I have learned here and from Ray if I had not experienced the lie(evil) in the church.

Ever learning,
Suzie
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: skydreamers on May 24, 2007, 06:32:54 PM: Quote
church just served flavored milk!

That's funny Darren, I like that! ;D

Also, I think you're probably right, in that many of us are at least wanting to be ready for the meat.....I know I want it, but only God knows if I'm ready ;).

I see the flood as kind of a shadow of our baptism of the spirit (of water)...it was after the flood (this baptism) that God gave humanity meat to eat...and really it was only Noah and his family who first got to partake of "meat"...and they are representative of the Elect as I understand it (the few out of the many....8 people out of likely how many who were living on the earth at that time....wow, very few indeed!)

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 20:22
22 But Jesus answered and said, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They said to Him, We are able.

I pray that God make me able....I pray for spiritual meat....but I'm thinking I have only gone through the first baptism (of John) and perhaps not yet baptized by the holy spirit...I don't know, I can't tell. All those people baptized by John did not yet have the holy spirit dwelling in them. This is why I think I still have a ways to go before I can receive the "meat". And I think that the church experience may well be like that first baptism....the second is still to come.

The church experience is extremely valuable and necessary and it begins to show us the need to repent of our sins. Secular people have no concern for such things. Church people are at least aware of sins and are being convicted to confess them.

Mark 1:3-4
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

For this and many other reasons I am thankful for and appreciate the importance of my church experience as well, as I think most everyone here does.

As Suzie said
Quote
I just don't think I would appreciate as much the truths(good) I have learned here and from Ray if I had not experienced the lie(evil) in the church.

God seems to teach us most everything by way of contrasts.

Peace,
Diana
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 25, 2007, 12:08:26 PM: I admire so much how so many here can reason things out. It's beyond my ability I'm afraid. I don't know if it is just me or if human beings in general have difficulty wrapping their minds around resurrection, eternal , etc. It is not logical but miraculous. There isn't a step 1, step 2 thing to it. The bottom line to me is this: It is not right to get rich off doing anything for God, Jesus is for everyone, He is love in the greatest sense and all will be as the Father has planned. I don't think it right to put people down. I get real confused when I read stuff here about church. It sounds like every person and every church is evil according to many on the forum. To me that is not right. It is judging and I am not supposed to do that. That is for God. I think back to a precious lady when I was little who taught me about Jesus in Sunday School. Was she evil? I say no! She made an impression on my life. She didn't have to take of her time to do that, she did it because she wanted to.
Seminole
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: skydreamers on May 25, 2007, 02:10:25 PM: Hi Seminole,

I think I understand your concerns, but I'm also wondering if you are maybe misunderstanding a little about where people are coming from when they are discussing the church.

You say:

Quote
I don't think it right to put people down. I get real confused when I read stuff here about church. It sounds like every person and every church is evil according to many on the forum. To me that is not right. It is judging and I am not supposed to do that. That is for God. I think back to a precious lady when I was little who taught me about Jesus in Sunday School. Was she evil? I say no!

I guess I shouldn't speak for everyone, but the way I understand it, is that no one actually considers the people themselves in the church as "evil". It is the teachings of false doctrines that is evil. There is much scriptural evidence to show that Satan dwells in the churches, so much of what is taught stems from evil and false doctrines originating with him. A good paper to read on this would be Ray's paper entitled: The Synagogue of Satan
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

This does not mean that there aren't many sincere, honest and loving Christians doing the very best they can with what they know. Everyone on this forum was part of a church at one time or another, and most appreciate how the church has helped us get this far. You need to first be IN a church to be CALLED OUT of a church. I for one, have great respect and love for all those who are in a church and I realize fully that only God can open their eyes to see what is false, just as He has done for most of us. To be deceived does not necessarily mean you have an evil character, but you are ensnared by an evil system of religion.

So I don't think anyone is "putting down" others who are still in the church. We are no better...it is only by the grace of God that we've even been given the privilege of understanding certain things. It was not by our own power or works. As you so rightly say:

Quote
I don't know if it is just me or if human beings in general have difficulty wrapping their minds around resurrection, eternal , etc. It is not logical but miraculous.

It is only by a miracle and the power of God that we are able to discern any truth. So what have we got to be haughty about? All of us must always remain humble when dealing with God's children, for we are all his creation.

I do think that most, if not all, on this forum feel similar to this. If not, then that is between them and God.

1 Corinthians 10:12
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

I hope I have not confused you more ;)

Peace to you,
Diana
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mrsnacks on May 25, 2007, 04:02:04 PM: You have said it well Skydreamers. I think of what Jesus said on the cross " Father forgive them for they know not what they do. " It is the same with the church today. They don't know what they are doing. You can't get mad at anyone for being blind. It is like getting upset at a 3 year old for not being able to drive a car.
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: rk12201960 on May 25, 2007, 04:32:47 PM: Hi seminole,

Its a hard thing to know everything about God. As I understand our understanding doesn't even come close to Gods. We therefore keep it simple (KIS) and try to hang on. Thats why if I come across something that seems to hard to understand then I go back to the basics, such as the church { false teachings) belong to Satan. This is how God wills it.

I could put tons of scripture in this but if I don't get across to whom I'm speaking then I'm just a clashing noise, not understood and a pain to the ears.
So 'm going to keep it simple.

The dear Lady who took the time to teach is not evil, in that respects. (I don't know her)
We don't throw out the baby with the bath water, even tho they are in satans church dose not mean that they are evil, it just means that their understanding is led in confusion by Satan.

Listen Sem, don't feel bad because you don't understand all that is here on the forum. You are here because God seen something in you and put you right where you are.

Satan might be driving the car (church) but for sure that doesn't mean all others in the car are the same as the driver (Satan, evil) They are just there for the ride and can't control where they are going.
Then God (red light) stops the car a pulls you out. Most whom is taken out really doesn't want to get back in the car because they now understand thats not a good place to be.

I rode in that car for a LONG time as many here have, so when they say that the church is evil its the driver we are talking about.

Hope this helps,
Peace and wisdom

Randy
;D 8) ;D
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Craig on May 25, 2007, 04:35:50 PM: Seminole,

There is a wealth of wisdom in what Randy said, please take it to heart.

Blessings

Craig
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on May 25, 2007, 05:20:26 PM: I have posted this quote in another thread and I see it fits here too! It is from LOF part 9 quoting Ray :

Remember always as we attempt to enlighten those whom God is calling that we are NO BETTER than those whose doctrines we condemn.

The whole Church is called :D.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Kat on May 25, 2007, 07:54:03 PM: The many years I went to church was to 'worship' God. I thought that was where I needed to be to show God how much I loved Him. Looking back I can see all those years I never worshipped in the Spirit of Truth while there. I was trying to serve the church, to show God I loved Him :-\ I do not regret the service I did in the church, but I know now that I want to worship God in Truth and that is not the place to do it.

Here is an email from Ray on worship.

http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#worship --------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Barry:

Excellent question. Sometimes we fail to see the trees for the forest, as they say. It has come to be commonly believed by the whole world of Christendom that "worshipping" is something that takes place Sunday morning and Wednesday evening in a church BUILDING. Now I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water, but most of these "worship" services are anything BUT worshipping God.

They are times of ENTERTAINMENT. Young people go to rock concerts for entertainment, and many Christians go to church for entertainment. Turn off the sound and just watch the audiences and you will see that both the rock concert and some church services are virtually identical.

What is true godly "worship," and how and where is it done? The answer may shock some.

Jesus said that:

"Howebeit IN VAIN do they WORSHIP me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7).

Wow! This is a biggie. If we do not teach the commandments OF GOD, we are worshipping God in VAIN! Yet what is it that is taught during these so-called "worship services" but the commandments of MEN? (See the forty Christian contradictions that I present in Part II of my series on "The Lake of Fire," on the last three pages).

When Paul went up to Jerusalem "to worship," did he go to the Temple?

"...I went up to Jerusalem for to WORSHIP. And they neither found me in the TEMPLE..."

What about the synagogues?

"...neither in the SYNAGOGUES..."

What about in the city, Jerusalem?

"...nor in the city" (Acts 24:11b-12).

WHY didn't Paul worship in the Temple or in the synagogues or in the city? Because:

"Howbeit the Most high DWELLS NOT in temples made with hands..." (Acts 7:48).

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, DWELLS NOT in temples made with hands" (Acts 17:24).

But why didn't Paul worship God in the City of Jerusalem? Because:

"The woman said unto Him [Jesus], Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain; and ye [all of you Jews] say, that in JERUSALEM is the place where men ought to worship" (John 4:19-20).

And what did Jesus have to say about the "location" of our worship?

"Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe Me, the hour comes , when ye shall NEITHER in this mountain, NOR YET AT JERUSALEM, worship the Father" (John 4:21).

Jesus then gives is the truth about WHERE and HOW to WORSHIP GOD:

"But the hour comes, and now is, when the TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH: for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit: and they that worship Him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH."

There my brothers is the true answer as to where and how we are to worship God.

I am not suggesting that we cannot worship God in hymn and song, or in praise and prayer, but it always MUST BE IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. Most Christian worship is in the FLESH and in ERROR.

We are to worship IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH, and let me be quick to add that this kind of worship should take place in our lives, EVERY DAY, ALL DAY LONG!

Start teaching these marvelous Truths in your meetings and soon you will all be "worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth"! Let me know if there are further questions you have regarding this or other subjects.

God be with you all,

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: LittleBear on May 26, 2007, 12:02:51 AM: Hi Seminole,

There are excellent answers to your query. I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. I came out of the church because I couldn't stand the system any longer. And I couldn't sit there and listen to untruth any longer.

I love the people. I want to be with them. But I want to be WITH them. I want to be able to talk about what's in my heart, I want to be able to share with them about who God really is and about His kingdom. I don't want to compromise or just go along with things when I know they are not right.

This is how I feel about it.

Love,
Ursula
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mari_et_pere on May 26, 2007, 02:57:58 AM: I think people's hearts are in the right place generally speaking. Just because they believe what we consider wrong is no reason to hold them in disdain. I don't think anyone here feels that way. I hope not! My grandpa on my mom's side was a preacher man. His heart was golden. I know for a fact his congregation was golden also. They may have all been misguided, but evil? Certainly not!
My grandma on my dad's side had a golden heart for children. She taught bible school in her basement for as long as I knew her, which happened to be 23 years, and I'm sure she was teaching it before I was born. Her heart was in the right place. She held on to some mistaken views, but I guarantee that you've never met a sweeter old woman in your life. To call either of them evil would be fighting words.
Just my two cents.

Peace

Matt
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on May 26, 2007, 08:43:34 AM: My Father was from Russian Jewish descent and my Mother from Irish Scottish descent. My Father converted to Catholicism. As a child I was bred into the Catholic indoctrinations! My Great Grand Parents had Spiritualist associations. So there I was with Judaism, Spiritualism and Catholicism to navigate through. It took me more than thirty years of searching through that lot. ::)

Our Lord sure shows us some interesting territories as He leads us in His Wisdom Understanding and Plan!

When finally I gave up the search, I was blessed to be found...then dragged...then shown Bible Truths ;D Alleluia...at LAST 8) ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: mari_et_pere on May 26, 2007, 11:21:13 AM: Arcturus, glad you could make it! ;D

Matt
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: seminole on May 26, 2007, 02:42:33 PM: I thank you all for your responses. It is a lot to think about and that is what I will be doing.
Seminole
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on May 26, 2007, 02:47:40 PM: Thank you Matt. That is very kind. I will be glad if I make it to the end!....

I think I am only half way and that is being optimistic at best ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: GODSown1 on May 27, 2007, 08:59:26 PM: hey alL,
WelL its finally happened, GOD placed it on ma Heart 2 get out of dis Church biznesS! lol!, man I cant blieve it, I uz 2 sO Love goin 2 church, BUT!! lastnyte was unreal! I jus wanted 2 stand uP & say 2 da dudE Preachn His! word, WakeuP! m8 r we reading da same boOK! it was sO unreal! I jus got uP & walkd out & walkd homE speakn wit da LORD all da way homE, da fing Im nt cumn 2 gripZ wit is if dis is GOD telln me dis den Y!???? is fingZ! turning 2 tuRmoil around mE it so Hard 2 makE sense of, BUT! I jus nO GOD is in Control, so dis turmoil! wilL! b 4 da betta, PRAISE! HIS mightY! namE alwayZ!.
muchLOVE! Pera
ps. em I just finally FREE!?? :)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: YellowStone on May 27, 2007, 09:27:48 PM: ;D ;D ;D
Praise Be to God, Pera

I am SO Happy for you!!! ;D :)

Love Darren
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: sansmile on May 27, 2007, 09:37:21 PM: GO PERA GO PERA.......

(http://bestsmileys.com/cheering/2.gif)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: LittleBear on May 27, 2007, 11:18:45 PM: Hi Pera,

It IS hard to stay in a place where truth is being twisted and things are being taught that are, well heretical. God has been opening your eyes to His truths.
It is the BEST place to be in! (in His truth, I mean)

This turmoil in your life is part of God's plan for YOU. He brings these difficult things in our lives in order to strengthen us and to perfect us. During these trials it is hard to see any good in the situation, but afterwards you would not trade it for anything. God will teach you things in the midst of this turmoil that you could not learn in any other way. You are HIS, and he wants to bring you to maturity. Keep focused on God and keep trusting Him that He is in total control of what's going on.

I will pray for you

Love,

Ursula
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: GODSown1 on May 28, 2007, 02:20:03 AM: WoW!! muchLOVE!! 2 alL.
I am sO loOkn 4ward 2 da futuRE lol!, I am so Thankful 4 alL ur guyz/gurlz lol! AwesuM! & such encouraging words, Yes! Id so LOVE! all Prays! & in return I shalL Pray 4 uz alL 2, Thank You LORD! muuaaahhhh!!!! oxoxoxo much muchLOVE!! Pera
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on May 28, 2007, 05:33:40 PM: What a HUGE Blessing Pera! It is no small thing to have been finally dragged out of the Harlot into clean fellowship with the Lord one on one. You do not need a Church built with human hands. The Lord has given us hearts to occupy and thoughts to establish in His Righteousness.

I am so happy for you. It is a BIG STEP to come out of her as our Lord calls us to! Only He can make you do it and give you that gift of removing yourself away from...as Ursula says..."a place where truth is being twisted and things are being taught that are, well heretical."

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?
Post by: GODSown1 on May 29, 2007, 01:45:35 AM: Thank You LORD muuaaahhhh!!!!! dis Really is Amazing!!