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=> Email to Ray => Topic started by: Dennis Vogel on March 19, 2006, 12:01:18 PM
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Hello Ray,
Exposing Christians with an unchrist like approach in dealing with homosexuality, that is the subject of this e-mail. First of all, let me say that anyone who claims they know the "deep things" of God, his will, his feelings, his plans for humanity, beyond what is shown to us in the Scriptures is insane. There is no way I can know all the things of God that I wish to one day know, beyond what is written, and so at the end of the day, I can only have faith in God's love, and mercy for me.
Now to the point. Speaking to some so-called "Christian" friends of mine over the weekend, I once again saw just how Satan operates in most of Christianity. These friends, who have friends who are openly homosexual, told me that the parents of these homosexual friends were kick out of their parents home, and left with no place to go. The reason behind this act of hatred was simple. Their parents are Christians and believed it was their "spiritual obligation" to rid their house of this evil. The kid who I am referring to now lives with another friend, and has shelter and food. The damage however is done, the kid now speaks out against his parents with animus, and hatred, and how could anyone blame him. He feels betrayed by his own blood, and was indeed betrayed by his own blood. The most disturbing part of this Satanic turn of events over the weekend is this; my "friends" (although they are not really friends but co workers, who I get together with occasionally) said they agreed with the parents actions. One told me that homosexuality was against her religious beliefs, and if she had a child who was homosexual, she would too kick him out of her house.
By the way I can't even imagine what you must be saying in your head when you see how long my e-mails to you are. Back to the e-mail. The question behind all this is what scripture can I show them to help them understand how God does indeed operate in all. That if God knew the hairs on your head, he certainly knew who would be homosexual, or not, that God loves all, and I remember you saying that Paul said that those who don't take care of their own family were worse than infidels. Of Course the Bible is clear on this matter. It is against the way God instructed us to live our lives for a man to share an interment relationship with another man. But the parents should have prayed for him, and loved him unconditionally, regardless of what sin he carries. Jesus instructed us to love our enemies. When an enemy is captured on the battlefield, he is given food, water, and shelter. They striped THEIR OWN CHILD of these things . You don't see the tears coming down my eyes, but their there. It is when I see these things, that I understand not to underestimate the craftiness of Satan.
Your brother,
Billy ...
Dear Billy:
I receive many emails regarding sex, divorce and remarraige, homosexuality, etc. The one thing that they all have in common when them write me is that they all LEAVE OUT ALL pertinent information, like HOW OLD IS THIS CHILD? Is he TEN or is he TWENTY? I naturally feel that all such emails do not want me to know all the facts, for then my answer may be a little less than what they are hoping for.
Ray
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Surely Ray, is not condoning this evil? That was a very sad email.
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Condoning? I don't think he is condoning anything, there are not enough facts or critical information to make a valid judgement or even opinion.
Like Ray asked, how old is this "child," what prompted the action by the parents? Were overt "activities" being done in the home?
If you had a son or daughter 21 or 25 years old living in your house would you allow them to do whatever they pleased? Would different sex partners be allowed to spend nights? How about drug use, smoking crack or shooting heroin with friends in the basement be ok? How about a theft ring of unemployed friends storing their goods in the garage?
My point (and I believe Ray's as well) is that we don't have enough information even to make a suggestion.
Just my take,
Joe
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is that the only sin that warrants the boot?
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Proverbs 18:17 The first to plead his case seems just, until another comes and examines him.
There are two sides to every story. Unfortunately we are not given enough information to make a decision. I believe Ray is showing wisdom in answering as he did.
I could ask a few questions of my own. Was this young man told he couldn't bring his men friends home and did he? Was he rude and disrespecful to his parents? Was he lazy and didn't want to work and just lived off his family?
I know Ray doesn't approve of homosexuality, or any other sin, for that matter.
When my Mom and Dad were getting a divorce, I remember how this proverb from Pr.18 would be so true. My Dad would tell me all the terrible things he could think of about my Mom and my Mom would do the same about my Dad. I finally told them I loved them both and hated being in the middle of their arguments. They both quit doing it. But I never saw either one of them as bad as they saw each other.
Having all the facts is the only way to answer a question like this one.
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sin or no sin, some people just wont tolerate homosexuality. that son has brought great shame to the parents. I feel sorry for them.
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is that the only sin that warrants the boot?
No and I agree with Ray everyone has their limit. We would need more info to even try to make a Judgment.
PS there is a reason he is a homosexual, and that might be the perants fault
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is that the only sin that warrants the boot?
Like Ray asked, how old is this "child," what prompted the action by the parents? Were overt "activities" being done in the home?
If you had a son or daughter 21 or 25 years old living in your house would you allow them to do whatever they pleased? Would different sex partners be allowed to spend nights? How about drug use, smoking crack or shooting heroin with friends in the basement be ok? How about a theft ring of unemployed friends storing their goods in the garage?
My point (and I believe Ray's as well) is that we don't have enough information even to make a suggestion.
Just my take,
Joe
No I doubt that would be the "only sin," alot would have to do with how blatent this sinning was and the age of the "sinner" I had previously listed just a few of them before your post, you must have missed them, I can think of even more that would lean me toward showing my grown child the door. Just not enough info on this particular situation to give a valid opinion.
Joe
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Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.
But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.
Let him without sin cast the first stone.
This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).
Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)
Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out
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Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.
But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.
Let him without sin cast the first stone.
This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).
Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)
Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out
Hi Zander, I don't mean to be arguementative but if this is an adult child having overt sexual encounters in his parents home they have no right to show him the door if he is defiant in obeying the rules of the house?
I don't believe homosexuality is in itself the worst sin one can commit (Ray & Mike both scripturally prove this), I would be with you if the child is a teen and is experiencing the incredible confusion and angst that can be part of adolescence, but even a teen would have to be discouraged and eventually put out if this activity were taking place in the home, with other minors, influencing siblings.
Joe
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Like i say, if the guy is flouncing some normal house rules, like as you say having sex with other men under their roof without consent, then i can understand in some way that it would be difficult to live with him.
But not JUST for being gay. Even if he was going out and having his shenanigans, thats still forgiveable. Nolt like the guy is killing anyone.
But its all guess work. we dont know the details as is being said here.
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For me, this is such a hard verse to believe, to have my eyes opened to.
Jam 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
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Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.
A "drug taking " son is not as SHAMEFUL to the parents/family as a homosexual son is.
I'd much rather have a disobedient, drug taking, violent son, than a gay son anyday.
But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.
I can. and I do condone it. I can't condone homosexuality, like you do however. just like I can't condone people having sex w/ animals, or child molesters.
Let him without sin cast the first stone.
This verse is never truer than when the issue of sexuality comes out (excuse the pun).
Then why are you casting stones at people who are not PRO-GAY???
Are you without sin?
Its a shame to judge the poor guy. (by that, im not saying anyone here is judging him)
No, it's a shame to be a homo, and what he has done to his family, they must now walk about with their heads down in shame.
and yet you are saying they should embrace this shame that has come upon them. * shakes head*
Jesus came to save sinners, not kick them out
They are not Jesus, they're his parents.
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Sure, i mean if the guy in question was a nightmare to live with, disobedient, drug taking, violent etc, then that would make a case for him being difficult to live with.
A "drug taking " son is not as SHAMEFUL to the parents/family as a homosexual son is.
I'd much rather have a disobedient, drug taking, violent son, than a gay son anyday.
But i cant condone the kicking of out of a house of a relative just for being gay for God's sake.
I can. and I do condone it. I can't condone homosexuality, like you do however. just like I can't condone people having sex w/ animals, or child molesters.
I disagree. I do not condone either. I have tried to help those with drug problems you can only help them if they wish to be helped. It is the same with any affliction. If a homosexuality came to me looking for help I would try to help them with it. Every one have their limits. Even when someone say they want help. You may reach your limit before you can help them free of their affliction.
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Jam 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;
Arent' we all guilty of homosexuality etc. Haven't we all broken the law? Then we are guilty of breaking all.
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Okay then, let's all throw our gay sons parties, and invite all the other gay kids over so they can play together.
perhaps that'll make Zander happy.
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Missing the point, or getting it, but not wanting to submit to it.
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Everyone,
Remember God loves all of His creation! We are commanded to love our neighbor!We can hate the sin but not hate the induvidual! I know some gay men and a few I had known died of aides,but my love for them never died or dies!!!God hates that sin too but his love and mercy endures forever! Christ also died for the homosexual and if these friends I know needed help I would in no way cast them away! I hate the sin but I love them! There are things I have done that I am ashamed to even think about but God in His mercy forgave me and he will deal with them in His time!!
bobby
Here's a question I have been thinking about, "as Christ is so are we in this world". Christ died for the sinner, so since we are to partake of the sufferings of Christ, are we too to die for the sinner also? Not necessarily physical dying, but dying to self, not for our salvation, but for the salvation of others??
2Co 1:6 But, whether we are in tribulation, it is for your encouragement and salvation; whether we are encouraged, it is for your encouragement, which worketh inwardly by the endurance of the same sufferings which, we also, suffer;-
2Co 4:10 At all times, the putting to death of Jesus, in our body, bearing about, in order that, the life also of Jesus, in our body, may be made manifest;
2Co 4:11 For, evermore, we, the living, unto death are being delivered, for Jesus' sake, in order that, the life also of Jesus, may be made manifest in our mortal flesh:
(2Co 4:12) So that, his death, in us, doth energise, but, his life, in you.
2Co 4:15 For, all things, are for your sakes, in order that, the favour abounding, may, through means of the greater number, cause, the thanksgiving, to superabound unto the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not, but, even if, our outer man, is decaying, nevertheless, our inner man , is renewing day by day.
Since Christ died for the sinner, homosexual included; we too are to die for the sinner, the homosexual, so that the light of the world will shine.
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I only need the Holy Spirit to reveal the beast in me to be truly disgusted and horrified. Paul called himself the 'chief of sinners' and i don't think he was joking. I wonder if and when we get a good look at the beast in each of us, we stop focusing so much on the sins of others because we too feel like the 'chief of sinners'.
It's one of my most heartfelt prayers that i bring my boys up 'in the way of the Lord' ~ and God knows how much i need His wisdom to do that. All is in God's hands. If, however, one of my precious sons grew up and lived as a homosexual, yes it would break my heart for many reasons, but i don't think shame would be up there at the top. Would i ask them to leave the house ? That depends on a lot (Joe raised some possible scenarios).
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I haven't been in the position of the parents in this discussion so all I can do is try to imagine what I would do. I don't think the young person should disrespect his parents' home by doing things he knows they disapprove of under their roof. Just as any child living under a parents' roof should be respectful of their house rules. I like to think that my love for my child would be unconditional, that is all I can imagine. I must say that the verse comes to mind regarding the beam in my eye versus the speck of dust in the eye of my fellow man. My grandparents taught me the right things but I must confess I did go and do things they would not approve of. They knew about some of the things and even though they were saddened by my choices they kept loving me. I think that is what helped me understand the unconditional love of God. And their teaching held steady because even though I strayed, I never forgot their teachings to me and I returned to that.
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I haven't been in the position of the parents in this discussion so all I can do is try to imagine what I would do. I don't think the young person should disrespect his parents' home by doing things he knows they disapprove of under their roof. Just as any child living under a parents' roof should be respectful of their house rules. I like to think that my love for my child would be unconditional, that is all I can imagine. I must say that the verse comes to mind regarding the beam in my eye versus the speck of dust in the eye of my fellow man. My grandparents taught me the right things but I must confess I did go and do things they would not approve of. They knew about some of the things and even though they were saddened by my choices they kept loving me. I think that is what helped me understand the unconditional love of God. And their teaching held steady because even though I strayed, I never forgot their teachings to me and I returned to that.
I believe parents/grand parents ways of disciplining and dealing with their kids definitely influence a persons understanding of God initially. I grew up in a legalistic home, and felt approved of by my parents when I did good, and felt fearful of my parents when I did something bad. This was my initial belief in how God looked at me. I was constantly on the performance treadmill trying to please God my my actions. It took a long time and some real big mess ups to bring me to a very low place, and only then did God start to reveal his true self to me, LOVE.
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Hello all,
Do these verses show us what to do in these situations.
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed.
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
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Hello all,
Do these verses show us what to do in these situations.
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed.
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
The instruction continues in 2 Corinth.
2Co 2:6 In the case of such a person the punishment which was inflicted by the majority of you is enough.
2Co 2:7 So that you may now take the opposite course, and forgive him rather and comfort him, for fear he should perhaps be driven to despair by his excess of grief.
2Co 2:8 I beg you therefore fully to reinstate him in your love.
2Co 2:10 When you forgive a man an offence I also forgive it; for in fact what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has always been for your sakes in the presence of Christ,
2Co 2:11 for fear Satan should gain an advantage over us. For we are not ignorant of his devices.
2Co 2:15 For we are a fragrance of Christ grateful to God in those whom He is saving and in those who are perishing;
2Co 2:16 to the last-named an odor of death predictive of death, and to the others an odor of life predictive of life. And for such service as this who is competent?
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, a repentance not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world finally produces death.
2Co 7:12 Therefore, though I wrote to you, it was not to punish the offender, nor to secure justice for him who had suffered the wrong, but it was chiefly in order that your earnest feeling on our behalf might become manifest to yourselves in the sight of God.
Seems to me, we are to not associate with a person who continues in these sins. If the one has been given faith in Christt, and shows no sign of repentance, then release them, turn them over to satan for the destruction of their flesh.
But if God is working in this person, Godly sorrow will eventually produce repentance. At this time, reinstate this person into love.
But what about the homosexual who isn't, a carnal Christian. For me, we are to not associate with them, but we can love them by praying for them, caring for them, demonstrating God's love. If they are one that God has called and chosen, we will be a fragrance of Christ to them.
Any thots?
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Laren, the verses you quoted nailed it. I only want to add that when administering "tough love" it can be more painful for the giver than the recipient. No one feels like a winner at the time.
Joe
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Laren, the verses you quoted nailed it. I only want to add that when administering "tough love" it can be more painful for the giver than the recipient. No one feels like a winner at the time.
Joe
Man that is for sure, can vouch for that right now with a situation I am in.
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Like i said before on this forum, gay people have it pretty bad with the church (the firm), as if being gay is the ONLY sin in the world.
With due respect Sorin, child molesters and animal shaggers are not in the same league of 2 men consenting. Animals and children do not consent.
Let him without sin cast the first stone. I am certainly not without it, so i wont be casting anything today
regardless. This topic pains me. Love is the key.
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"""But what about the homosexual who isn't, a carnal Christian. For me, we are to not associate with them, but we can love them by praying for them, caring for them, demonstrating God's love. If they are one that God has called and chosen, we will be a fragrance of Christ to them. """"
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person
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In which case my parents should have thrown me out a long time ago, as im guilty of past fornication.
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In which case my parents should have thrown me out a long time ago, as im guilty of past fornication.
who isnt?
what is worse, physical forny or spiritual forny?????
((((from among yourselves that wicked person))))
the wicked is the one that claims Christ but dosent acknowlage his sin.
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Who would Christ rather have associated with, fornicators, prostititutes, the spiritually sick, or those who see themselves as self righteous, and not in need of a doctor?
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the wicked is the one that claims Christ but dosent acknowlage his sin.
Amen, those who don't see their sickness, and the need for a doctor.
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Fine, then I'm the wicked one. but I do acknowledge my sins.
just because I'm a sinner, doesn't mean I have to be in accord with rapists, murderers, child molesters, animal shaggers, or homosexuals.
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Fine, then I'm the wicked one. but I do acknowledge my sins.
just because I'm a sinner, doesn't mean I have to be in accord with rapists, murderers, child molesters, animal shaggers, or homosexuals.
Sorin,
i was in know way refering to you, hope you understand that!!!!!
the point i am making is those are in need most of the healing of Christ!!
you do not have to be in accord with them.
peace and love
eutychus
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Fine, then I'm the wicked one. but I do acknowledge my sins.
just because I'm a sinner, doesn't mean I have to be in accord with rapists, murderers, child molesters, animal shaggers, or homosexuals.
I agree we don't have to be in one accord with these people.
However, if God is revealing to them their sin, and the wages of their sin (death) is working in them a desire for change, and they are seeking repentance, I think then we are to restore them to love, with open arms. Realizing change is a process, and not instantaneous.
I'll bet there are many homosexuals etc. who are at a place of brokeness, and desire someone to talk to, someone who will share the love of Christ to them, but are afraid to talk to a Christian, because of fear of being judged.
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Let's get back to what this topic was about in the first place. The parents threw their gay son out of the house, and that is about all we really know.
I can speculate and try to think of all kinds of reasons why he was thrown out, but I don't really know.
It isn't the gay people who live quiet lives I object to, but the ones who are intolerant of anyone disagreeing with their lifestyle. If I say being gay is sinful, I am considered homophobic and unloving. These people should be treated respectfully, but I do not approve of what they do. It isn't any different than disapproving of a rapist, murderer, adultress, thief or any other sin. If you can show me in scripture my sin, I will look at the Bible and say I never knew that was sin. I can be ignorant of sin, and there are passages that talk about these type of sins.
If people want to be homosexual, that is their business. But the in your face, accept my lifestyle or you're a bigot thinking is not right.
Homosexuals have a high rate of alcohol addiction and drug addiction. This lifestyle certainly isn't gay.
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Well stated Shibboleth, I can only wonder how I sadden God everytime I use his name in vain and though I am not gay or have sex with animals nor go to a drunken parties, I still fill very low in the site of our Father. We must never forget that we were all born sinners and I never did see a list of sins in there ranked order.
A sin, is a sin is a sin. :oops:
Darren
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In which case my parents should have thrown me out a long time ago, as im guilty of past fornication.
Like Shibboleth stated, let's get back to the original topic.
Zander, were you committing these acts under your parents roof? After they asked you to cease? Were you an adult or a child? Were you flaunting this activity blatently?
These are things we do not know about this situation.
This displacement may or may not have been justified, there are too many unanswered questions.
Joe
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Like i said (3 times now), i dont know the situ either. if he was disobeying certain rules then sure i can understand he'd be difficult to live with.
But not JUST for being gay. Its more of a general point i am making rather than saying they threw him out JUST because he is gay.
If my son was gay and i knew he was having consensual sex OUT of my house, then that is forgiveable. Im not going to cast any stones.
If he has sex, orgies and gang bangs all over the shop in my house, then thats a different matter, so i agree with you in that sense
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Like i said (3 times now), i dont know the situ either. if he was disobeying certain rules then sure i can understand he'd be difficult to live with.
But not JUST for being gay. Its more of a general point i am making rather than saying they threw him out JUST because he is gay.
If my son was gay and i knew he was having consensual sex OUT of my house, then that is forgiveable. Im not going to cast any stones.
If he has sex, orgies and gang bangs all over the shop in my house, then thats a different matter, so i agree with you in that sense
Hi Zander, Then we are in total agreement then because I have no desire to throw stones and castigate gays for the condition they are in, it is not something that most folks would wish on themselves or anyone else. I have lived in fairly large cities and worked for companies with thousands of employees and I have been in contact with all kinds of people, gays included, I would never condone treating a gay person any differently than I would anyone else. It is only if their actions harmed others who had not given consent to their provlications or they did not respect the wishes of parents, employers, etc. by overtly "acting out" just as I would not accept overt sexuality by a straight person.
I think we are on the same page.
Joe
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Matthew 12:31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 3:28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
There is only one sin worse then any other sin. I also find it interesting it is not defined.
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You guys are right, I'm in no position to judge anybody with this beam in mine own eye.
I'm a worse sinner, than homosexuals.
:cry:
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You guys are right, I'm in no position to judge anybody with this beam in mine own eye.
I'm a worse sinner, than homosexuals.
:cry:
.I don't know about that I am not sure if I have not met a homosexual that was not also guilty of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. You at lest are willing to understand you may have been in the wrong.
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You guys are right, I'm in no position to judge anybody with this beam in mine own eye.
I'm a worse sinner, than homosexuals.
:cry:
.I don't know about that I am not sure if I have not met a homosexual that was not also guilty of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. You at lest are willing to understand you may have been in the wrong.
I've met many good people that aren't homosexuals, rapists, murderers etc., that don't see their sin, and don't see the need to repent. They live in their self righteousness.
But I do agree with you re: Sorin, a humble spirit is a gift from God, and Sorin has it, he like hopefuly the rest of us here, see our need to repent and renew ourselves daily.
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Ok, here we go. I'm sure a lot of you will not like what I say, but when has the truth been liked by many?
Christ wants ALL OF YOU! The Word states: (Jam 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all
Now, have any of us ever tried to keep any of the law? Well, we are then guilty of the whole law.
Sin is the same sin to the Lord. Sin is SIN. When the Lord says he wants all of us, that's it...ALL OF US. Here is what I see the truth of the Word stating: Christ wants us all to understand to our core that we are not only guilty of OUR SINS, but of the SINS OF ALL others as well.
It is of the good Grace of our Father that we have not gone down the road of being a rapist, or murderer, or spouse beater, or child molester, or extortionist, or, or, or, or, or, or. We are ALL THE SAME BEAST!
The Lord wants us to realize to OUR CORE, that we are ALL THOSE THINGS. Yet, because our Father wills it, some of us experience some of those things while others are given other demons to contend with. One is a drunkard, while another a thief. We need to see we are guilty of being homosexual even if we aren't homosexual. Why? BECAUSE WE NONE CHOOSE without CAUSE, to be or not to be.
Now, am I condoning any of those things when I say this? Am I saying go do these things now because you are already guilty? NO NO NO. Here is what I'm saying. We are not to be sorry and repent of only our "personal" sins, we are to repent of them ALL. ALL ALL ALL.
Sin is Sin. We do not condone it, but we are not the ones to condemn it either. We should close our eyes to the evil of it once we repent of it, but we are not to judge another mans condition that he has been caused to be in.
It's the same idea of a man breaking into my house to rape, pillage, and murder my wife and child and probably me. What will I do? Is this man here by himself, our has our FATHER HIMSELF just caused this to happen? Is it our Father causing this man to attack me, or is it of the man in and of himself? I, myself, can not control the beast I am. However, with CHRIST in me, I can do ALL THINGS. Isn't it funny how Christ uses ALL, to incompass everything? Well, we are to pray that the Lord NEVER places us in the circumstance to have to face those issues we see as evil.
Well, this is getting longer than intended, but please consider your own self before considering others. Why are YOU not a HOMOSEXUAL? Did you choose on your own not to be? Did that person CHOOSE without CAUSE to be that way? Let the record show, that I genuinely had a HATE for homesexuals. Real HATE. However, because the Lord has set me free, I now LOVE every individual I see in my face, as I am seeing Christ in another form. You are being tried at every turn around the corner, and you better be asking Christ to direct your thoughts and decisions accordingly.
In His good Grace,
Steve Crook
Edited for spelling and grammar
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Ok, here we go. I'm sure a lot of you will not like what I say, but when has the truth been liked by many?
Christ wants ALL OF YOU! The Word states: (Jam 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all
Now, have any of us ever tried to keep any of the law? Well, we are then guilty of the whole law.
Sin is the same sin to the Lord. Sin is SIN. When the Lord says he wants all of us, that's it...ALL OF US. Here is what I see the truth of the Word stating: Christ wants us all to understand to our core that we are not only guilty of OUR SINS, but of the SINS OF ALL others as well.
It is of the good Grace of our Father that we have not gone down the road of being a rapist, or murderer, or spouse beater, or child molester, or extortionist, or, or, or, or, or, or. We are ALL THE SAME BEAST!
The Lord wants us to realize to OUR CORE, that we are ALL THOSE THINGS. Yet, because our Father wills it, some of us experience some of those things while others are given other demons to contend with. One is a drunkard, while another a thief. We need to see we are guilty of being homosexual even if we aren't homosexual. Why? BECAUSE WE NONE CHOOSE with CAUSE, to be or not to be.
Now, am I condoning any of those things when I say this? Am I saying go do these things now because you are already guilty? NO NO NO. Here is what I'm saying. We are not to be sorry and repent of only our "personal" sins, we are to repent of them ALL. ALL ALL ALL.
Sin is Sin. We do not condone it, but we are not the ones to condemn it either. We should close our eyes to the evil of it once we repent of it, but we are not to judge another mans condition that he has been caused to be in.
It's the same idea of a man breaking into my house to rape, pillage, and murder my wife and child and probably me. What will I do? Is this man here by himself, our has our FATHER HIMSELF just caused this to happen? Is it our Father causing this man to attack me, or is it of the man in and of himself? I, myself, can not control the beast I am. However, with CHRIST in me, I can do ALL THINGS. Isn't it funny how Christ uses ALL, to incompass everything? Well, we are to pray that the Lord NEVER places in the circumstance to have to face those issues we see as evil.
Well, this is getting longer than intended, but please consider your own self before considering others. Why are YOU not a HOMOSEXUAL? Did you choose on your own not to be? Did that person CHOOSE without CAUSE to be that way? Let the record show, that I genuinely had a HATE for homesexuals. Real HATE. However, because the Lord has set me free, I now LOVE every individual I see in my face, as I am seeing Christ in another form. You are being tried at every turn around the corner, and you better be asking Christ to direct your thoughts and decisions accordingly.
In His good Grace,
Steve Crook
Couldnt' have said it any better. Thanks. :D :D :D
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I do not disagree with either Steve Crook, or roperfam.
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I second that
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I'm disgusted by homosexuals, but I don't hate them.
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i am discusted with MY flesh
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I jus don't like dis custard.
perfer vanilla pudding....know what i mean
Rodger
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I jus don't like dis custard.
perfer vanilla pudding....know what i mean
Rodger
dang now im hungry :P
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i am discusted with MY flesh
Well euty if you just wrap a towel around it maybe the rest can regain their appetites and eat their pudding. :lol:
I would like to address the issue of parents responsibility. The age of the kid is not given. Let's just say he's legally a minor.
Does is matter what a child has done or professes what gender he is drawn to as far a parental responsibility to the child. Is it alright to throw an underaged person out into the street where the chance of survival is questionable?
I believe that we are the responsible adults and must see to the child's welfare. We need to do whatever is necessary to correct any wrong behavior and/or find help no matter what.
If the home situation is intollerable then we need to find another safe environment to put the child for his own welfare and guidance.
Whether a parent feels shamed or embarassed by their offspring, is it not more shameful to throw the baby out with the bathwater. How can someone just throw their children away for any reason. This seems more grievous to me.
I believe that hate is the worst offense as it is 180 degrees from brotherly love.
I don't really understand the intollerance of homosexuals in general. Is it learned from the pulpit, deep seated fear of being a homo too, or just intollerance of something being different. Whether you subscribe to the theory that they are born that way or that it is God's will that they are what they are, why such vitriol. They are what God wants them to be. I just can't understand the hatred displayed.
I am not even sure that having sex of any kind is sinful, after all we are stuck in these physical envelopes with all the needs of gratification that comes with them.. The ten commandments do not address masturbation or fornication [hetero or homo]. They do address adultery though. I don't think it is the sex part that so wrong as much as the betrayal of your partner.
Steve's post was an excellent. Much food for thought.
Maybe you can have your pie and eat it too.
feat
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most of what is written in the bible of homosexuality, has too do with temple prostitutes, male or female.
all sexual sin is sin, plain and simple, but so is gossip, backbiting, slander
etc etc.
(http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif)(http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif)
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Practicing homosexual sex is a sin, plain and simple.
But the problem is, some try and make it the unpardonable sin.
It is a sin that, that individual must struggle with and overcome.
Just the same as the sin in my life, that I must overcome.
I thank God that He didn't put that particulair lust, in my heart.
I assure you that I have others though, just as bad.
Because sin is sin is sin is sin.
I hate whenever people try to candy-coat sins.
They are all terrible, and they all keep us from drawing closer to God!
If you want pick and choose your sins or coat them with a sweet taste, then go ahead and spin your wheels. You are just arguing with God, and His spirit in you.
Blessings!
Craig
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A few years ago the military made it so homosexuals" be accepted into the military"( like there were none before!!!!). Someone I know was in the military at the time and he just about had a fit! He said he wasn't going to go to the gymn on base or shower on base anymore! I told him that I really didn't think he was going to be looked at and ogled. Not that he was not a handsome man , he was. But to be so fearful! Really I was a bit more graphic and told him I didn't think anyone was going to jump his bones!
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Jennie
He could have worked out in a rode and showered with his underoos on.
A bit nerdy, but safe non the same.
he could have bought a male chasity belt if he really felt so weary about it. :oops: :lol: :oops:
Rodger
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That's about how silly it seemed to me too, Rodger!
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Now a blind homosexual 8) would most definatly give me the heebie geebies, Though you can never really know for sure they are staring, they do seem to feel their way around things with and without the walking stick. :oops:
:wink:
Rodger
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Practicing homosexual sex is a sin, plain and simple.
But the problem is, some try and make it the unpardonable sin.
It is a sin that, that individual must struggle with and overcome.
Just the same as the sin in my life, that I must overcome.
I thank God that He didn't put that particulair lust, in my heart.
I assure you that I have others though, just as bad.
Because sin is sin is sin is sin.
I hate whenever people try to candy-coat sins.
They are all terrible, and they all keep us from drawing closer to God!
If you want pick and choose your sins or coat them with a sweet taste, then go ahead and spin your wheels. You are just arguing with God, and His spirit in you.
Blessings!
Craig
Hi Craig.
Thanks for your post. I used to think everything was sinful. I had nuns teach me the guilt of sin at every turn. It was sinful to get dirty in the playground because God wanted us to be neat and clean. They also taught me about the eternal punishment in hell I would incur for my sins.
I agree wholeheartedly with a sin is a sin is a sin. I just don't know that what others think is sin is necessarily so.
If you believe in the concept of loving God and your fellow man and truly practice and strive to perfect it and act it out every moment of your life, then you are at least trying to follow Christ's example.
I get it that anything that you intentionally do that is harmful to yourself and/or someone else is in direct contradiction of love and is falling short of the mark. That would be sinful in my view. The rest of it is moseic law and was established for control and unity of israelites. I don't know if it directly applies to us today. However, if you think you should abide by some of it then you should probably abide by all 6oo some odd laws prescribed.
I'm not trying to be controversial, it just seems that what I am talking about in this thread about consentual sex is human nature. Sex is a natural thing for us as God made us.
Perhaps I am way of base here but I guess I have a different view than I did as a child, of what a sin is. If my view is not scriptural then I hope that God will help me to find the truth.
I have a lot to reflect on.
feat
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I'm not trying to be controversial, it just seems that what I am talking about in this thread about consentual sex is human nature. Sex is a natural thing for us as God made us.
Perhaps I am way of base here but I guess I have a different view than I did as a child, of what a sin is. If my view is not scriptural then I hope that God will help me to find the truth.
I have a lot to reflect on.
feat
Harry, you bring up a very interesting point. Consentual Sex can be likened to Fornication and is indeed classified as a sin. In fact we are instructed on how to avoid committing this sin.
1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
But what is fornification, is it the act itself or just the tinking about it.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Now one could ask, what is the meaning of "lust." It seems this is something I am guilty of, even though totally unintentionally and certainly without trying. So if such acts are considered adultery then consentual sex outside of marriage must be the same.
Sorry, Gods Words, not mine....
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This has got me thinking - Lust After - does this mean to follow, stalk, etc. If so then this is not me!! :)