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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ian 155 on June 13, 2014, 02:29:51 PM
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Hi all ,
I have been spending a wee bit of time checking these particular scriptures out and meditating on them.
NOT SURE IF RAY HAS SAID MUCH ABOUT THESE BUT TO MY UNDERSTANDING THERE ARE 2 CREATIONS of Man Gen 1 v 26 & 27 then Adam whom he placed Separately in"the Garden" Gen 2 v 8 .I have always thought this is one and the same however when Cain was exiled Gen 4 v 17 it does mention a wife possibly from Nod - i.e not from Adam
then Chapter 5 gets even more interesting ...
Gen 5 v 2 Male and Female created he them and called their name Adam
in this genealogy of chapter 5, Cain nor Able are mentioned, but starts with Seth
these two creations Gen 1 v 26 and Gen 2 v 8 to me are possibly those called and those chosen ??
New testament talks of the 1st Adam in relation to Jesus 1Cor 15v45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a life-giving spirit.
please pray bout this before posting I have a feeling this is a parable of note...
Ian
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I don't know what praying before posting has to do with it. What will be, will be.
Jesus is the Word, and He wrote both the Old and New Testaments. He just didn't start using parables in the New Testament. It has been long known that the creation accounts have deep spiritual meanings.
Adam is the Hebrew name for mankind, humankind. Eve is the name of the mother of all living.
The great false church and the funnymentalists teach that the creation stories are literal.
Only the Spirit of God gives understanding to those to whom it is given.
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Hi Ian,
Here are a few more things to think about.
Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
Who would have been calling Adam and his line "sons of God?" Probably those people he had told God had created him. And who were the "daughters of men?" The children of the 'other' people around them.
The New Testament many times refers to the Gentiles, the nations, strangers, Aliens and often called dogs and made them slaves... Why? They were those people outside the line of Adam and not to inherit the promises given to Abraham and down to the Israelites and the Jews of the New Testament times.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made.
The people that were not 'God's people' were considered little more valuable than an animal, very much looked down on, because they were not the chosen people, not from the line of Adam and Eve. Paul went to these Gentiles and knew very well who they were and here is what he spoke of these people.
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—
v. 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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NOT SURE IF RAY HAS SAID MUCH ABOUT THESE BUT TO MY UNDERSTANDING THERE ARE 2 CREATIONS of Man Gen 1 v 26 & 27 then Adam whom he placed Separately in"the Garden" Gen 2 v 8 .I have always thought this is one and the same however when Cain was exiled Gen 4 v 17 it does mention a wife possibly from Nod - i.e not from Adam
Hi Ian,
Ray spoke briefly on this subject at the 2008 Nashville Conference. Here is what he said:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.0.html
FIRST HUMANS
Now I talked a little, not during the conference so much, but in some of the bull sessions in the evening we had. Where it was said, ‘were Adam and Eve the first humans?’ Well, I said, not necessarily and I gave numerous reasons for that. I thought of another one here just yesterday, so I’ll throw this out just for fun and just to think about. I’m not making some big stand on this.
I used to think where it says God formed man from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7), He’s just going back to explain in more detail what He did in chapter 1. But I’m thinking that’s not tenable either.
So let’s ask ourselves, when God created herbs and things, did He just create one? One piece of moss, one blade of grass? Or did He make grass, a lot of grass and a lot of things. Well let me explain this, because I don’t know if I did this at the conference. Notice where it says in verse 11.
Gen. 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass…
“Let the earth bring forth grass,” now that’s an interesting statement. It doesn’t say God created - bara or made - asah, grass. Now to make something out of what already exists is to asah, you make it out of preexisting material. To create, bara in Hebrew, means you bring in something that did not exist before. But how do we get the first plant life on the earth? How did God do it? Does it say God created the trees, God created the grass? No. You can read it with your own eyes. He said, “let the earth bring it forth.” Now can we believe it? Can we believe God made the earth in such a way that the earth could bring it forth, when He commanded it? Yes. Not aside from God, not without God, but at His command. He said “Let the earth bring forth the grass.”
Now notice there’s a progression. Let the earth bring forth and it says “the grass,” that word I think it is deshe, it just means green. Interesting. What do the scientists tell us is the first form of plant life on earth? Single cell microscopic algae, very tiny things that need little or no light. Now we have light, we read light in the above verses. The light does not because clean and clear until the next day, but there was light. Primitive type mosses and algae and things apparently do not require much light.
But notice a progression, first it says, “brings forth grass (no. 1),” it says grass, but the word just means plant, green plant.
Gen. 1:11 the herb yielding seed (no. 2), and the fruit tree (no. 3) yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Now what do science finds are the progression of plants? You start with the primitive, they can be somewhat advanced, until you finally have whole trees producing fruit. What is one of the last things in plant life that comes on the scene according to the geological table? It’s a very recent addition… flowers. Flowers are relatively new to plant life in the geological time scale.
So obviously He didn’t make one blade of grass or one piece of algae, there was a multitude. Now notice when we come over to verse 20.
Gen 1:20 And God said, let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures, that hath life.
Did He just make one male and one female fish or was there an abundance of them? Then we go on verse 21, “He made the great tanniyn.” Which I believe you know are the dinosaurs, the reptiles.
Then we have the cattle, verse 24. Did He just make one cow and one bull, is that it? Well, it says He made cattle.
Well then when we come down to verse 26, it says “God said, Let Us make man…” But the Hebrew is ‘humanity.’ “Let us make humanity.” Did He really just make one man and one woman? That’s not what He did with all the other things, did He? Look at it.
Gen. 1:27 Let Us make humanity in Our image after Our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle…
Remember, I pointed out it doesn’t say let them have dominion over the great tanniyn, the dinosaurs. Why? Because they were extinct for 50 million years.
“In the image of God created He him.“ That’s what it says, but that’s not in the Hebrew. It just says, “In the image of God created.” That’s all, it doesn’t say “He him.” Concordant puts “created it.” God created it, humanity, it. So it just says “in the image of God created.” He created, but to make the English more understandable, they put in “…created He him.” God created him, but the “him” is not in there.
“Male and female created.” Now in our translation, it says “male and female He created them.” So it’s pretty difficult to say, ‘well there was one man and one woman.’ He created humanity, He created humanity male and He created humanity female. Humanity, okay.
Now when we come to Adam and Eve, He gives them a name and we know it’s just one. Are they the first ones though? Maybe not. Because we later have Cain, that says his sentence is too great, wherever I go, they will kill me (Gen. 4:13-14). Who will kill him? Who? There was only Abel and he killed Abel. So if there’s only Adam and Eve and their two sons, Cain and Abel… well Cain killed Abel, so now there’s only one man left, and his mother and father. He says to God, wherever I go, “anyone who finds me will kill me." Who? He killed the only other man alive on earth. Well if we interpret it that way, there are problems. Then Cain took a wife… so there’d be all these other things to contend with and so on. Alright.
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Thanks guys - been out of computer land for a while ... couple of things have arisen in my studies
correct John My limited understanding Adam (humankind) or (Mankind ) not just singular - Gen 1v26 Male and female he created them..
next chapter Adam created for the sole purpose of Tilling the soil or preparing the spiritual ground or John the baptizer( eden perhaps a type of canaan/heaven )
all woman come out of Man all men come out of man and yet all come out of God
Christ first referred himself "The Son OF Man" and he became at Gods choosing The Son Of God' -
why I said prayfully consider before posting is that it is not a cut and dry answer and JFK, would unravel and rattle much of our lowly knowledge on our way to the kingdom -
"Have I not Chosen 12 of you ? yet one of you is a devil" with no reference to John of course
thinking aloud again - there is much Much more to this - it does not seem to interest members right now so perhaps place on the back burner
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Thanks guys - been out of computer land for a while ... couple of things have arisen in my studies
correct John My limited understanding Adam (humankind) or (Mankind ) not just singular - Gen 1v26 Male and female he created them..
next chapter Adam created for the sole purpose of Tilling the soil or preparing the spiritual ground or John the baptizer( eden perhaps a type of canaan/heaven )
all woman come out of Man all men come out of man and yet all come out of God
Christ first referred himself "The Son OF Man" and he became at Gods choosing The Son Of God' -
why I said prayfully consider before posting is that it is not a cut and dry answer and JFK, would unravel and rattle much of our lowly knowledge on our way to the kingdom -
"Have I not Chosen 12 of you ? yet one of you is a devil" with no reference to John of course
thinking aloud again - there is much Much more to this - it does not seem to interest members right now so perhaps place on the back burner
On the contrary, the subject is of immense interest. I've been studying this for over 45 years. However, we are limited in how far we can discuss these matters here.
Also remember, you must have at least two solid scriptural witnesses to establish any truth. That is one way the Spirit keeps us on the correct path.
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Ian:
God as we all know is very creative. All we have to do is look at nature to see the proof. Unfortunately, godless scientists today are constantly trying to prove the Theory of Evolution as being more than a theory, but rather a reality. Their main attempts at this revolve around the discovery of fossilized remains of our supposed "distant cousins". But what if God actually did create different species that are similar in certain ways to Adam and Eve, but yet different enough from them to be unique? Perhaps these ancient finds are proof of God's creative genius at work, in one way to cause "strong delusion" upon evolutionists. Since these other creatures existed, they therefore surmise that we all evolved from them as well. I believe that could be what Ray was hinting at in his answer. What are your thoughts?
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With respect, I didn't descend from my 'cousins'--nobody does, nor does anybody claim to who knows what they are talking about.
Unless I can prove that my own paternal lineage was from a brother of Jesus, then I can make no claim to share His lineage--not even to Adam. The ultimate forebear is GOD, not Adam, according to Scripture. Everything else is assumption. I'm not saying TRUE assumption, or FALSE assumption...just assumption. Some of the same things that Ray mentioned concerning Cain are also in Scripture concerning the sons of Noah. I can reconcile them without any problem.
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Ian:
God as we all know is very creative. All we have to do is look at nature to see the proof. Unfortunately, godless scientists today are constantly trying to prove the Theory of Evolution as being more than a theory, but rather a reality. Their main attempts at this revolve around the discovery of fossilized remains of our supposed "distant cousins". But what if God actually did create different species that are similar in certain ways to Adam and Eve, but yet different enough from them to be unique? Perhaps these ancient finds are proof of God's creative genius at work, in one way to cause "strong delusion" upon evolutionists. Since these other creatures existed, they therefore surmise that we all evolved from them as well. I believe that could be what Ray was hinting at in his answer. What are your thoughts?
Hey Awesome,
I think as John pointed out we need 2-3 witnesses to confirm a matter ..also I believe that the spiritual is far beyond carnal mentality (some time I read a scripture and some of the interpretations I have are/seem ludacrous )however according to scripture we have the spirit of God in us and are able to discern - I have a few theories re the creation but that all they are untill I find the scriptures I'm looking for.
ps BTW i have also heard that some of those so called fossi discoveries are a sham - not sure what to think - evolution and the dinasour age seem to link up according to science
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The evolutionary scientists could well be right in how they say things came to be.
God could have used slow changes over time in creation, which is supported by some scriptures.
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass... Gen 1:11
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life... Gen 1:20
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind... Gen 1:24
"Let the earth bring forth....Let the waters bring forth..." God could have used natural processes over time as His agents of creation.
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I think kat and renes reslonces are huge on this and johns as well. I THINK God has provided us sufficient information to understand this matter as it relates to Genesis and the creation of humanity but wothout the spirit it will trmain a source of contention and tripping stone for those not chosen. To those called and chosen who still struggle with it, God will make it clear when He wants to. I want to make it clear though, I believe to understand this matter in a place where I am at peace and see no issue with it. Tgat being said, I don't by any means claim to hold the final say on it.
Alex
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I'll toss this into the pot for Ian. It's as important and relevant to the OP as it is, and not a bit more than that.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
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John, well I think science is right as far as the actual facts bare out, but that leaves an incredible amount of holes to be filled in with their theories. So science can help in showing the evidence of what is actually found, but their assumptions in filling in those holes are way off base to me. I think we are too quick to follow scientist that take God out of being actively involved in this creation.
Gen 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
There seems to be the idea that God kind of put things in motion and then just stood back and watched it take shape... I happen to think that God's own hand must have played an active role in bringing the original species into existence just like in the example we have of Adam and Eve.
Yes the earth brought forth the plants and the sea brought forth the sea creature, but I Don't think it did it on it's own. And this is where scientist are quite off in their explaining how life started... well I think it's very probable that God actually 'seeded' the ground and waters so it could bring forth the life from it. I mean we have planets all over the universe and we don't know of any others (and I don't believe there is) that are just bringing forth life on any of them. No this is a special work here and I think God is very involved with it all along the way. But of course this is mostly conjecture on my part.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
You may have misunderstood me if you think I believe that scientists are correct in all things.
They don't have a clue as to the power Of God.
I believe God is behind everything. That as Jesus said, little birds do not die without the Father's permission. It is as Paul said when he spoke to the Athenian Assembly on Mar's Hill----"In Him (God) we live and move and have our being."
We are immersed in the invisible God. Nothing happens without Him. The heavens and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. He is so great that He has to humble Himself to interact with our physical beings. Psalm 113.
John
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Dear Kat,
I like the way you put it. Thanks for sharing your understanding.
Indiana Bob
John, well I think science is right as far as the actual facts bare out, but that leaves an incredible amount of holes to be filled in with their theories. So science can help in showing the evidence of what is actually found, but their assumptions in filling in those holes are way off base to me. I think we are too quick to follow scientist that take God out of being actively involved in this creation.
Gen 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
There seems to be the idea that God kind of put things in motion and then just stood back and watched it take shape... I happen to think that God's own hand must have played an active role in bringing the original species into existence just like in the example we have of Adam and Eve.
Yes the earth brought forth the plants and the sea brought forth the sea creature, but I Don't think it did it on it's own. And this is where scientist are quite off in their explaining how life started... well I think it's very probable that God actually 'seeded' the ground and waters so it could bring forth the life from it. I mean we have planets all over the universe and we don't know of any others (and I don't believe there is) that are just bringing forth life on any of them. No this is a special work here and I think God is very involved with it all along the way. But of course this is mostly conjecture on my part.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Even the census of old the woman is not mentioned...........
Genealogy usually takes into account of men...
maybe, therefore in thousands of their years comes a woman/women......
Is Noah lives 960 years?
What more for Adam and Eve......... ;D
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I think my interest was pricked once I understood that Adam is not singular but represents Mankind ( rather those called to be part of the kingdom and with the given ability to turn or change earthly minded beings)
Till the ground -
John "we" or "Them" are also referred to as Grass ,being here one day and into the fire the next - as is our birth, women have 2 sets of waters and its very dark in the womb until the "let there be Light" is called for "
Santgen... I found that Abel is missing in Gen 5 begins with Seth
Science is mans logic based on that which is seen this is not necessarily correct though
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I think my interest was pricked once I understood that Adam is not singular but represents Mankind ( rather those called to be part of the kingdom and with the given ability to turn or change earthly minded beings)
Till the ground -
John "we" or "Them" are also referred to as Grass ,being here one day and into the fire the next - as is our birth, women have 2 sets of waters and its very dark in the womb until the "let there be Light" is called for "
Santgen... I found that Abel is missing in Gen 5 begins with Seth
Science is mans logic based on that which is seen this is not necessarily correct though
Hi Ian,
Greetings!
I understand what you mean and really it is confusing.....
but in my understanding all are we are descendants of the first man Adam (except for the first woman). This also supported by this scripture and many others when it comes to sinning.
For since by [a] man came death, by [a] Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:21–22).
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Romans 5:12)
We read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” God did not start by making a race of men.
there was only one man at the beginning—made from the dust of the earth (Genesis 2:7).
By that, by the Scripture, all are descendants of the first man Adam. This also means that Cain’s wife was a descendant of Adam. She couldn’t have come from another race of people and must be accounted for from Adam’s descendants.
Other than that, this scripture is telling that Eve was the mother of all living, In other words, all people other than Adam are descendants of Eve—she was the first woman.
Genesis 3:20 we read, “And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.”
and maybe Genesis is not written in chronological order ???
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Hi santgem,
In studying these quotes in Genesis it has begun to appear to me that they 'all' could be figures of speech, using symbolism that will give a much higher spiritual meaning when understood. Take your example of Adam being the "first man" and also Scripture say...
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?
What has accrued to me is it seems like the Bible was written to and about "God's people," so that is what it is 'mostly' speaking of. I say mostly because there are times when others are mentioned... aliens, foreigners, strangers, etc, I believe these could have been the people living at the time Adam was brought onto the scene.
Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.
As for Eve being "mother of all living," thinking of that in the same way. She and Adam would produce (she would literally be giving birth, therefore mother) to the line of people that would be used to bring knowledge of God and then further on the gospel into the world. Therefore the mother of the 'living,' or 'life' in Jesus Christ.
Also this could very well explain how there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created... because the Bible does not address them and is not speaking to or about them. Now in the NT I wondering if that isn't who the Gentiles are...
I am not trying to say that I know this is right, but I am trying to bring more into the conversation to simulate discussion to help us come to a better understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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For those who don't have it, here's Genesis 2 from the Darby Translation for consideration.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished.
Gen 2:2 And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it.
Gen 2:4 These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,
Gen 2:5 and every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And Jehovah Elohim planted a garden in Eden eastward, and there put Man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; and the tree of life, in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden, to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became four main streams.
Gen 2:11 The name of the one is Pison: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Havilah, where the gold is.
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good; bdellium and the onyx stone are there.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Cush.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which flows forward toward Asshur. And the fourth river, that is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15 And Jehovah Elohim took Man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to till it and to guard it.
Gen 2:16 And Jehovah Elohim commanded Man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou shalt freely eat;
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die.
Gen 2:18 And Jehovah Elohim said, It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate, his like.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name.
Gen 2:20 And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like.
Gen 2:21 And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead.
Gen 2:22 And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man.
Gen 2:23 And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
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Hello Kat,
Greetings!
Yes we know that a bible is full of symbolism and a bible is a big parables.
Again, when you see the Genesis v.24 there already a notion of man leaving his father and mother wherein there are no parents yet at the beginning of Adam and Eve. What i am saying is that Genesis is written not in a chronological order.
Gen 2:23 And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, Man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
What we cannot deny is the fact that all of us must experience death except from "twinkling of an eye."
@ Kat
Also this could very well explain how there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created... because the Bible does not address them and is not speaking to or about them. Now in the NT I wondering if that isn't who the Gentiles are...
As for your quote,
if ever there was other people living in the world at the time of Adam and Eve were created then they will not experience death and maybe they were still here on earth or roaming around the universe. Just joking ;)
The mere fact is that because of Adam or through Adam we experience death and all of us will experience that except "twinkling of an eye."
If there will be another human at the time of Adam how come that they also include in experiencing death and if not the world is not enough.
@Kat
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?
In my understanding that this is literally attributed to Adam. When Eve sinned it was only the part of Adam that is sinned and when Adam take the sin from Eve because of Love then all the parts of Adam was sinned for He is the first Man that is created.
Sorry for my English, i am not fluent! :-\
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Hi santgem,
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html -----------
A parable is a story that contains in figurative or symbolic language a higher moral or spiritual truth.
v
Many people have tried to tell me that parables are to be taken literally. What they don’t realize is that they are talking about square circles. The very reason a parable is called a parable is so that we will know for sure that whatever is contained in the parable IS NOT LITERAL. Parables require spiritual understanding. Some require little (albeit some) spiritual understanding.
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So I'm thinking if these stories in Genesis are parable and I think they are, then basically there is much more to what is being literally said. Yes these were real people that lived, but the story/parable has a much higher spiritual meaning than what is actually said.
The chronological order is not a factor, as the symbolism and the hidden meaning transcends that. How can we figure out these symbols and the meaning of the parable, well that is tricky and that is why the Bible is such a mystery. Understanding the plan of God and how He is working in this world makes all the difference in understanding parables.
Again, when you see the Genesis v.24 there already a notion of man leaving his father and mother wherein there are no parents yet at the beginning of Adam and Eve. What i am saying is that Genesis is written not in a chronological order.
Gen 2:23 And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
When you understand that Adam represents all of mankind, then you can understand that this spoken about leaving father and mother and cleaving to a wife is speaking of part of God's plan for humans. So it's not literally just speaking of Adam, but he is used in the parable to get this understanding across. Then you can carrying this same way of thinking (parabolic) over to Adam being the cause of sin and death...
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
So if there were other people living before Adam, were they sinless? Of course they were not, all mankind is carnal from birth in this age. But if they were not taught about sin, right and wrong, then what?
Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed (recorded, accounted) when there is no law.
It is only through Adam's line that God begins to teaches right/righteous from wrong beginning with Adam and recorded through the law given to Moses. But Paul explains that even if somebody doesn't know about the law, death still reigns and comes to all men.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
So my point was that Adam represents mankind and Paul saying that it was by the first man, Adam that, "sin entered the world, and death through sin" is not to be taken literally. Paul is speaking of the condition of mankind in this age, all have sinned, all will die. It's a parable about God's plan. God only vaguely revealed His plan of salvation in the OT, it was not until the "second man" came on the scene that a remedy for this seemingly hopeless condition of sin and death appeared, Jesus the Christ.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Jesus was not literally the "second" man... it's all a parable about God's plan of salvation written throughout the Bible, hidden in plain sight.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
v. 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
v. 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
v. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Kat,
Greetings!
I agree most of what had you said but there are some things that bothered me.
Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.
In my opinion there will be no other line besides Adam. It is only through Adam and there is no other line. When you are telling the word "line", what appeared in my mind is that there will be other people besides Adam and Eve at the time of their creation.
If there will be other line or people or as you have said,
there was other people living in the world at the time Adam and Eve were created
If the other people were outside sin, and we understand that Adam was the first to sin and all sinned of the line of Adam, then it follows that these other people are still alive today because the wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death),They will not experience death because they are outside sin. Now the question is, where are these people now?
Am i going to fast or outside the point?
The scripture told us that, Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him." Gen 2:18
the first man is not good to be alone. Meaning at the start of their creation Adam is alone and therefore Adam is the First.
other thing is that The LORD God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it.Gen 2:15
There He placed the man whom He had formed and is not saying men.
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Santgen
I don't think confusing, it is a matter of interpretation though - 1st verse in Genesis is the state of the dead or those not in Christ ( I believe ) the light comes and eradicates the darkness there is a separation - I believe the second /3rd verse are prophecies about Christ Jesus - there are many scriptures that connect Jesus to Light.
Cain in 1 John is referred to as his father being of the Devil - Cain is not mentioned in Genealogy of Adam.
things written by Moses being a type of Christ - one can be physically born from Adams seed yet still have a different spiritual Father . As was said by Jesus about his betrayer and about the Pharisees (he is a Devil and you are of your father the devil)
So the mystery wont be solved by logic - The Law prohibits inter family sexual relations - one can say but the law only came later however the word is the same Yesterday ,today and tomorrow so no Adam must represent humanity and Seth represents something as well as Cain represent another - Esau another this is not something we don't know this is different types of people or nations and it all boils down to Many and The few ... Adam is a type of ,Moses is a type of Joshua ,Joseph etc
keep reading and asking
Ian
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Santgen
I don't think confusing, it is a matter of interpretation though - 1st verse in Genesis is the state of the dead or those not in Christ ( I believe ) the light comes and eradicates the darkness there is a separation - I believe the second /3rd verse are prophecies about Christ Jesus - there are many scriptures that connect Jesus to Light.
Cain in 1 John is referred to as his father being of the Devil - Cain is not mentioned in Genealogy of Adam.
things written by Moses being a type of Christ - one can be physically born from Adams seed yet still have a different spiritual Father . As was said by Jesus about his betrayer and about the Pharisees (he is a Devil and you are of your father the devil)
So the mystery wont be solved by logic - The Law prohibits inter family sexual relations - one can say but the law only came later however the word is the same Yesterday ,today and tomorrow so no Adam must represent humanity and Seth represents something as well as Cain represent another - Esau another this is not something we don't know this is different types of people or nations and it all boils down to Many and The few ... Adam is a type of ,Moses is a type of Joshua ,Joseph etc
keep reading and asking
Ian
Hi Ian,
Greetings!
Since you mentioned Seth represents something and Cain represent another, i will both answer you and Kat.
Kats
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
How could this be 'literally' attributed to Adam?
What has accrued to me is it seems like the Bible was written to and about "God's people," so that is what it is 'mostly' speaking of. I say mostly because there are times when others are mentioned... aliens, foreigners, strangers, etc, I believe these could have been the people living at the time Adam was brought onto the scene.
Now when speaking of Adam being the "first man," I'm wondering if that means the first that God has begun the work of salvation through or started it with him. And then you can carry that over to see how Adam was attributed as how "sin entered the world," because it was through his line that God would teach exactly what sin is. Not that he was the first to sin, but it was through him - his line that explained that it was through sin that spiritual "dead" occurred.
There is mentioning about God's people and this God's people is in the line of Seth. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Gen 4:26 This is the start whereby men is starting to call upon the name of the Lord. Also, in the line of Seth you will see that; And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.Gen 5:24.....This means that God is with them that is why they are called God's people.
now look at for Cain.
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.Gen 4:14
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden Gen 4:16
did you notice the Phrase "Cain went out from the presence of the Lord". Yes! Cain went out the presence of the Lord and Cain line then therefore will not be called God's children but instead be called daughters of men or sons of men.
Gen 6:2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
This sons of God saw the daughters of men are the descendants of Adam Through Seth and Cain. They were not the descendants of other people but for Adam. Seth for sons of God and Cain for daughters of men.
There will be only Adam at the start and there will be no other created beings beside Adams with the Scriptures backing.
Now for the Genesis 5. I think Ray had that explanation of Adam having two TOTUtsssssss! ;D
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Were the plants and animals formed after man? Read Genesis 2 as if it's another "creation account" and you have man first, then plants, then animals, then woman which is not the "order" of Genesis 1 by a long shot. Something is going on here that at the very least demands reconciling the two accounts--IF indeed, they are TWO SEPARATE ACCOUNTS.
Read Genesis 2, on the other hand, as two descriptions of the same account, then why the difference in order?
I want to know firstly what these words mean--especially what is translated 'create' and what is translated 'formed'.
Something deep inside of me is unable to believe that Jewish and Christian tradition finally got one right.
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Hi Dave,
I'll give you my opinion on chapter 2. If you look at the very beginning it shows God had "finished" the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
v. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
v. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
So it was "finished," but then you have God "formed man" Adam (verse 7) and "planted a garden" (verse 08)... I believe God had finished His original work of the creation of all life forms way before chapter 2, because He said it was finished. So in chapter 2 this is a special creation work beginning done after all of the that.
Gen 2:5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
In verse 5 there is a 2 fold problem, no plants and herbs were growing, all over the earth? No, I think this is speaking of this particular place where the garden would be. Also that verse gives the reason why there were no plants there, no rain and no man that knew how to farm/cultivate/till it (I believe the people before Adam were hunter/gatherers).
So God went about preparing this particular place/garden, He "caused in to rain" on a already prepared/seeded land (chapter 1), so it would grow lush. Now the place was ready and God formed a person, Adam and put him there to teach him, because I believe Adam was the source of a lot of information needed to get this new race started. This would be the beginning of God's work on the salvation of all mankind.
Well that's my take on it, it seems to fit to me anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Santgen
One can also presume that Abel was a type of Christ thus was a parable About the world "Killing" Jesus -so once again the formulas we try and use wont make sense re bloodline - here is what it means.... i put 2 corresponding verses down below
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Ray is right its all one thing --- and it is explained thru the various characters in the book and there are 100's and ...Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
So whether we believe Adam represents Man in THE FLESH state (carnal) or The blood of Abel being likened to the blood of Jesus or Cain being a type of John the baptist your and my understanding would differ unless we get placed in a place of agreement so that we might walk together...
Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground (logic worship) an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
The genealogies are not important if fact we are told to avoid arguments about genealogies, what is important is that we understand the process...I believe that would cause repentance leading up to salvation - all these characters were made by God and for our God and God would direct us in his time to see/understand his word...I must be honest most of it is above my fireplace although... it is given to the elect to see and to them, not.
still praying and asking
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Santgen
One can also presume that Abel was a type of Christ thus was a parable About the world "Killing" Jesus -so once again the formulas we try and use wont make sense re bloodline - here is what it means.... i put 2 corresponding verses down below
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Ray is right its all one thing --- and it is explained thru the various characters in the book and there are 100's and ...Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
So whether we believe Adam represents Man in THE FLESH state (carnal) or The blood of Abel being likened to the blood of Jesus or Cain being a type of John the baptist your and my understanding would differ unless we get placed in a place of agreement so that we might walk together...
Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground (logic worship) an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
The genealogies are not important if fact we are told to avoid arguments about genealogies, what is important is that we understand the process...I believe that would cause repentance leading up to salvation - all these characters were made by God and for our God and God would direct us in his time to see/understand his word...I must be honest most of it is above my fireplace although... it is given to the elect to see and to them, not.
still praying and asking
Hi Ian,
Greetings!
In my point of view genealogies are important. People are confused regarding the sons of God. They are perceiving that these are the fallen angels who took wives for the daughters of men and populate. We all know that angel cannot marry because they don't have their tools(except you disagree on this).
Yes, maybe Abel is a type of Christ but there will be no descendants that comes from Abel because he was killed.
When Abel died, the role of Abel has taken by Seth in such a way that Abel descendants which did not materialize was fulfilled in Seth descendants. It is in his descendants that men began to call upon the name of the LORD. Well you can consider also Seth as Christ type.
When we look at the bible history, God forbid His people not to marry with those who were not their kind. Will also God forbid sons of God to marry daughter of men?
let us see;
Israelites Specifically Told Not to Marry the Foreigners in Their Midst.
When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. Deu 7:1-4
On what grounds that God forbid them not to marry who were not their kind, is because They will turn away thy son from following me.Yes they will turn against God and follow their evil way.
Now, as Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, will his descendants that marries the "sons of God" will not do the same?
They have dealt treacherously against God: for they have begotten strange children. (Hosea 5:7)
The Israelites were told that they were a special people and to stay separate from all the other people (Exodus 33:16; Leviticus 20:24-26; Numbers 23:9; Deuteronomy 32:8; 1 Kings 8:51-53; Acts 17:26). They were a people holy to the Lord their God, chosen to be His own possession (Deuteronomy 7:6; 14:2, 32:8, 9).(taken from other site)
In Hebrews 12:16 God calls Esau a fornicator. Was Esau guilty of sex outside of marriage? No! Esau had married wives that were not of his race (Genesis 26:34) and violated the law of kind after his kind.(taken from other site)
There are a lot in the bible, Abraham and the likes.....
What i am saying is that God created good and evil, believers and not believers, man and woman, black and white, Adam and Eve, that contrast.
If there are believers in the descendant of Seth, there are also non believers in the descendant of Cain.
When the sons of God met the daughters of men the good and evil once again arise!
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Hi Dave,
I'll give you my opinion on chapter 2. If you look at the very beginning it shows God had "finished" the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
v. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
v. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
So it was "finished," but then you have God "formed man" Adam (verse 7) and "planted a garden" (verse 08)... I believe God had finished His original work of the creation of all life forms way before chapter 2, because He said it was finished. So in chapter 2 this is a special creation work beginning done after all of the that.
Gen 2:5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
In verse 5 there is a 2 fold problem, no plants and herbs were growing, all over the earth? No, I think this is speaking of this particular place where the garden would be. Also that verse gives the reason why there were no plants there, no rain and no man that knew how to farm/cultivate/till it (I believe the people before Adam were hunter/gatherers).
So God went about preparing this particular place/garden, He "caused in to rain" on a already prepared/seeded land (chapter 1), so it would grow lush. Now the place was ready and God formed a person, Adam and put him there to teach him, because I believe Adam was the source of a lot of information needed to get this new race started. This would be the beginning of God's work on the salvation of all mankind.
Well that's my take on it, it seems to fit to me anyway.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Personally I like that offering. I also believe, imo, that God created humanity, and when Paul writes 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
Paul is revealing to us that the formed living soul of Gen. 2:7 is where our journey, our walk, our learning begins, with this man.
Then I also have been given to accept that Genesis is literal, and yet is parable and allegory. But that is just me.
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My "faith" is that Genesis 1 is "natural" and Genesis 2 is "spiritual". I don't want to get bogged down into "literal" and "symbolic". My "views" on that are mine and I don't require others to share them. I hope for the same in return.
Concerning the genealogies, God has made all the nations of the earth of one blood. Please don't leave GOD out of the genealogies. There are MANY never named, and lines diverge with each generation. That's the way genealogies work, working both backwards and forwards. The brothers and uncles and great uncles and cousins of Abraham himself are not the ones God made His Promise to...yet even they are the recipients of the blessing when the time comes.
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Titus 3v9 and 2nd witness 1 Tim 1:4 I did not say it ...Read it
I can see why we should not get into this or avoid this genealogy trap ....do you though... or shall we adjust the word to suit...(perhaps when we analyse why we want to shove our points down peoples throats we may hit the jackpot ...pride of life)
We are to discern this by the spirit of truth - I agree 1st the physical then the spiritual, as you walk thru the word all the en samples point to Christ (1st the son of Man then 2nd the son of God) .....the last shall be 1st
The process is driving out/or exposing, Lust of the flesh and of the eye and Pride - in each Physical case Eve - Adam - Cain - Esau - Joseph brothers and family - all of this physical stuff is for our good - yet it is the spirit that gives life, causes us to hate sin/world once our eyes get opened - not the physical.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (logic) profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Cains Father was "all that is in the world" he has not a place in Genesis ch 5
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is NOT of the Father, but is of the world.
We walk above hu-Man intellect - we are the head not the tail - we are to walk ABOVE not Beneath.
So I believe Genealogies are "below'', as are myths re Fallen angels these are Man made interpretations - even if one swallows a Hebrew and Greek dictionary, it aint gonna get you close - its the Spirit that quickens
Is our Father God ? who is spirit - or is he the world (devil)?
ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .
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Hi Ian,
ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .
You have made some good points, it is true that a spiritual meaning that comes from these physical people/characters can be of much greater significances. But I certainly think it does matter what you understand happened in the physical first, as to how you can come to a spiritual understanding. What I mean is that if your physical understanding is flawed then how could you come to a right spiritual understanding from it? Take Cain, some actually believe that he was a produce of Satan (thinking he physically seduced Eve), and so that explains his nature. But this is not true and any 'spiritual' meaning that would come from this would be wrong.
So I believe it is important to come to a correct physical understanding first and from that there comes the spiritual. It does no good to seek the spiritual first as if the physical doesn't matter, if it leads to a wrong spiritual interpretation. I think we need a good/proper understanding of the basic physical application before we can move beyond that.
For me personally, in looking to understand how the physical really did happen in Genesis was necessary, and then the spiritual opened up from that in a real big way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Ian,
ALL These People/characters in the word represent spiritual stuff it does not matter who cain married or where she was from - that union represents something spiritual - it is our man nature that wants to intellectualize it .
You have made some good points, it is true that a spiritual meaning behind these physical people/characters gives them a much greater significances. But I certainly think it does matter what you understand happened in the physical first, as to how you can come to a spiritual understanding. What I mean is that if your physical understanding is flawed then how could you come to a right spiritual understanding from it? Take Cain, some actually believe that he was a produce of Satan (thinking he physically seduced Eve), and so that explains his nature. But this is not true and any 'spiritual' meaning that would come from this would be wrong.
So I believe it is important to come to a correct physical understanding first and from that there comes the spiritual. It does no good to seek the spiritual first as if the physical doesn't matter, if it leads to a wrong spiritual interpretation. I think we need a good/proper understanding of the basic physical application before we can move beyond that.
For me personally, in looking to understand how the physical really did happen in Genesis was necessary, and then the spiritual opened up from that in a real big way.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
:)
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Thanks for that Kat I hear you on the physical and that is true, it is a kinda 'school teacher master'
I guess it is the higher calling of God that causes one to seek further or the solid food of the word,to me the physical is the basics or rather the milk.Like i said in the 1st post -having studied the beginning I am blown away at how wrong i was from an interpretation point of view -
I mean Physically I would have thought it blasphemy to believe that Pharaoh in the below was likened to The Father....and Joseph to Jesus and the brothers to his forgiven brethren (saints) I mean Pharaoh was always THE DEVIL to me
And so ...we can also be misguided in Physical/intellectual understanding
Gen 41:42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
Gen 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:44 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.
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My "faith" is that Genesis 1 is "natural" and Genesis 2 is "spiritual". I don't want to get bogged down into "literal" and "symbolic". My "views" on that are mine and I don't require others to share them. I hope for the same in return.
Dave, I've been thinking about your comments regarding Genesis 1 & 2, first the natural than the spiritual. It certainly could explain the 2 accounts, and I do believe that applying basic bible truths as we read scripture will aid us in our understanding. I'm definitely seeing the 2 accounts in a different light now, however, I find it necessary to understand the "symbolism" in order to see the truth.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. :)
René