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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Brenda on December 02, 2016, 05:43:31 AM
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Jesus declared that all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him by God.
1. When did that happen?
2. Of which heaven was He speaking? The universe?
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Brenda -
You pose a very interesting question:
Jesus declared that all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him by God.
1. When did that happen?
2. Of which heaven was He speaking? The universe?
I believe that Jesus was sent to Earth by His Heavenly Father to establish 'The Kingdom of God', as recorded in The New Testament Gospels, and The New Testament; and His Reign is over ALL in Heaven and Earth - until He (Our Heavenly Father, puts all enemies under His (Jesus') feet, when He (Jesus) will hand over The Kingdom of God to His Father).
I understand that 'Heaven' is referring to 'ALL Spiritual Beings', and 'Earth' is referring to 'ALL the kingdoms on The Earth'; so Jesus has been given 'ALL Authority' and is above 'ALL' as 'The King of kings' and The Lord of lords' in 'Heaven' and on 'Earth', and the only one above Jesus is 'His Heavenly Father'.
It depends on what you mean by the 'universe' - if you are referring to the 'Moon, the 'Sun', and the 'Stars' in 'the Firmament', then The Scriptures confirm that He knows them all by Name - so I would assume that Jesus is above these as well.
I hope this helps.
Kind Regards.
George
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Jesus declared that all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him by God.
1. When did that happen?
2. Of which heaven was He speaking? The universe?
Hi Brenda,
You have an interesting question and I'll share with you my thoughts.
The Father was in Jesus AND Jesus was in the Father at all times.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
The Fullness of the Diety, that is the Godhead, that is God, all that is Divine, was in The Messiah in Bodily form. The Christ is the Holy One who had been generating in Marry made flesh.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Deity bodily.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being an irradiated brightness of his glory and an exact representation of His very being, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of God invisible, the first begotten of each creature.
So with these things being understood, can it be said that Jesus was ever without power? Did He ever not have ALL Power?
He walked on water, He raised, the dead, He cast out demons, He forgave sins, He healed the blind, the sick, the lame. Turning water into wine. He could call twelve legions of angels down to His side. He could transfigure Himself to show His glory.
Do these things not represent Him having all power in heaven and earth? The angels and the demons cover the heavens. The sick, the lame, walking on water, turning water into wine, these things cover the earth. Raising the dead and rising Himself covers both heaven and earth.
God bless,
Alex
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And yet:
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
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And yet:
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
It is possible that when He emptied Himself part of His power/Authority was limited but I don't know if that is necessarily to say that He did not have 'all power in heaven and earth.' For example, He could be killed, He could die, and someone might say, "well doesn't that represent a loss of power? And if a loss of power then how can He still retain having 'all' power?"
There in lies, perhaps, the crux of the whole discussion. What qualifies as 'ALL' power?
As another example, you seem to believe it includes having all 'KNOWLEDGE.'
I would disagree with you in that regard and I would also ask someone to prove that all the power/authority He did display as not sufficient enough to mean He has 'all power.' For I cannot think of any else needed of Him to do to prove such a statement. I am convinced by the works as to the truth of His decleration.
Certainly no mere human could do what He did, let alone unfold the Father, if He Himself was not intimately related with and of the Father.
John 14:10 The declarations which I am talking to you, from Myself I am not talking. Now the Father in Me remaining, is doing His works."
John 16:27-29
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 1:18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
In limiting Himself, by emptying Himself, He limits also His knowledge but His power is retained sufficiently that the works of God should be made manifest to the glory of God, both Father and Son (John 17:1-5). His power retained sufficiently that it could be rightly said of Him, that all power in heaven and earth are His.
God bless,
Alex
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At this moment, who had more power?
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The point I'm making is God the Father gave Jesus His power. As Ray has said: "The giver is greater than the receiver"
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At this moment, who had more power?
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The point I'm making is God the Father gave Jesus His power. As Ray has said: "The giver is greater than the receiver"
Hi Dennis,
Jesus layed down His life. No one took it from Him nor can take it from Him (Just as He Himself made Himself emptied). He takes it up again.
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Hebrews 2:8-10
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
So I fail to see how His cry proves He lacks power. He was made low for the express purpose of dying. That was His intent and desire.
I also know ray's understanding was growing in regards to who and what God is.
I agree that emptied into flesh and made low would then make The Father greater as Jesus said, but Jesus before His emptying and after His resurrection, being restored, we are also told (atleast in respects to before He emptied Himself) was and is equal to God which makes Him equal to the Father as the Father is God.
Philippians 2:5-8 Have the same attitude among yourselves that was also in the Messiah Jesus: In God’s own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Here is the very same though expressed by John.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here the jews understood just how equal to God, and by implication the Father, this Messiah was before them and it enraged them all the more!
John 5:18 "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
As Thomas said,
John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
God bless,
Alex
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Jesus did say he got it from the Father.
John 10:18-No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Joel
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Wow!!! and the Holy Sprit just jumped for joy! This group is the most blessed group I have ever encountered and I thank GOD for HIS wonderful love. When going through all of these posts, I realized one thing. Man is YET so carnal. Thanks guys.
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Dennis -
This is a very significant Scriptural Verse:
And yet:
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Some believe that this only applied when Jesus was a flesh and blood man, before He was Resurrected with His New Spiritual Body - yet there are many New Testament Scriptures that confirm that Jesus is still a Man:
Acts 7:56 (KJV):
and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Acts 17:31 (KJV):because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Romans 5:15 (KJV):
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:19 (KJV):
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1 Corinthans 15:47 (KJV):
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV):
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 7:24 (KJV):
but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Hebrews 10:12 (KJV):
but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Warmest Regards.
George
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George, are you saying Jesus is a flesh and blood man and since Jesus is equal with His father that God the Father is also a man?
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Dennis -
George, are you saying Jesus is a flesh and blood man and since Jesus is equal with His father that God the Father is also a man?
I am not saying that Jesus is a 'flesh and blood' man - as The New Testament Scriptures state the following:
1. Jesus shed ALL His Blood at the Stake (for Mankind).
2. Jesus when Resurrected, had a New Spiritual Body.
As far as I know, Our Heavenly Father has never, in The Old Testament, or in The New Testament, been referred to as a 'man'.
The New Testament Scriptures clearly state that after Jesus was Resurrected (with no blood or a natural body - but with a Spiritual Body) He is still a Man. That is what I was stating.
The New Testament Scriptures do state that Jesus was 'equal' with 'His Heavenly Father' - but The New Testament Scriptures also state that Jesus confirmed that 'My Father is Greater than I'.
I believe both of these facts are true;
A. 'Elohim (God) is Creating Mankind In Their Image'.
B. 'Jesus took on the form of a Man; and lived a physical natural life of a man'.
'Mankind is being Created In Their Image; and He became a man'.
Genesis 1:26 (KJV):
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Hebrews 10:12 (KJV):
but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Warmest Regards.
George
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I'm not insisting you are wrong George, I'm just not seeing it. I do not see where any of the verses you quoted say Jesus is still a man.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The above verse shows what God thinks about the flesh including His Son's flesh.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Clearly the Father is not 'sinful flesh'.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 4:24
(KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Ray says God is not 'a' spirit but Spirit period as Concordant and Rotherham show.
(CLV) God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth.
(Rotherham) God is, spirit; and, they that worship him, in spirit and truth, must needs worship.
If God is spirit and Jesus the Image of God then you can safely say it means the spiritual image, IMO.
Below are the verses you quoted and the Greek meanings from Strongs. I do not see where any of these say Jesus is currently a man.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 214
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
G1520
εἷς
heis
hice
(Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
Total KJV occurrences: 272
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
G444
ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.
Total KJV occurrences: 560
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
N/A - 'man' not in original text
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.
Total KJV occurrences: 4813
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Hi Dennis,
Jesus is still considered man after His death and Resurrection. Along with the many verses George provided, here are some more.
Paul's decleration:
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
John's vision of Jesus after His death and ressurection:
Revelation 1:12-18
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Ezekiel's vision of God:
Ezekiel 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
Daniel's Vision of God:
Dan. 7:13, "I am observing in the visions of the night, and lo! with the clouds of heaven One is coming, like a Son of Man; (I am observing) even until the Changed One of days arrives, and before Him they bring it near' ( "it" that is, the beast, see revelation Rev19:19-20).
King David's Vision of God:
1Ch 17:17 And this is small in Your eyes, O Elohim, and You speak concerning the house of your servant afar off, and have seen me as a type OF THE MAN WHO IS ON HIGH, O Yahweh Elohim!"
All these visions of God that men saw in the OT and that John saw is the Image of God, and this vision of God always appeared man because Jesus being that image is Man. A man has a body, that is a form, a shape, AN IMAGE, which we know Jesus still has because firstly He IS the image and Secondly we are told after the ressurection:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Furthermore, humanity, that is man, is not only being made after God's spiritual image but is created [PAST TENSE] after His image.
We had this conversation not too long ago where in we discussed the fact that carnal man is the image and glory of God which is an impossibility if the word "image" only refers to the "spiritual image" of God.
New testament witness:
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Old testament witness:
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made [PAST TENSE ] he man [HUMANITY]. or as the CLV reads "God made human beings in His image." And those human beings are quick to shed blood, very carnal, not like the spiritual image of God at all!
God bless,
Alex
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I see "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" a man.
He appears as a man but not like or the type of a man we are.
He differs from his Father in this respect because we are told God is not a man.
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We're told He is not a "man who lies or changes His mind".
Num 23:18 And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:
Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sa_15:29 and also, the Pre-eminence of Israel does not lie nor repent, for He [is] not a man to be penitent..
Job_9:32 For He is not a man like me that I should assert to Him:Let us come together for judgment.
When can a man not be a man?
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Act 12:21 Now on a set day, Herod, dressed in royal attire, being seated on the dais, harangued to them."
Act 12:22 Now the populace retorted, "A god's voice, and not a man's!"
Heb 8:1 Now this is the sum of what is being said: Such a Chief Priest have we, Who is seated at the right of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
Heb 8:2 a Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle. which the Lord pitches, and not a man."
I am a "god" who did not pitch the True Tabernacle and is not (yet) seated at the right of the throne of Majesty in the Heavens", because I am not a god like He is. He is a Man Who did and is, because He is not a man as I am.
I resist and reject the theological notion that man is "man" and God is "God" and never the twain shall meet.
Lastly, He came in the likeness of SINFUL flesh, yet without sin. He was flesh. The LIKENESS was with sinful flesh, but without sin. "For He is not a man like me..."
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Jesus is not A man.....he is THE man. The original. The pattern.
1 John 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
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Indeed The Lord Jesus Christ Was and is the only sinless, Spirit, flesh Word, Man, that ever was or ever will be.
If we attain immortality through him, we will become like him.
Joel
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Dennis -
You raise an interesting perspective, that Jesus is 'like a man':
I'm not insisting you are wrong George, I'm just not seeing it. I do not see where any of the verses you quoted say Jesus is still a man.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The above verse shows what God thinks about the flesh including His Son's flesh.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Clearly the Father is not 'sinful flesh'.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 4:24
(KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Ray says God is not 'a' spirit but Spirit period as Concordant and Rotherham show.
(CLV) God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth.
(Rotherham) God is, spirit; and, they that worship him, in spirit and truth, must needs worship.
If God is spirit and Jesus the Image of God then you can safely say it means the spiritual image, IMO.
Below are the verses you quoted and the Greek meanings from Strongs. I do not see where any of these say Jesus is currently a man.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
G435
ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 214
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
G1520
εἷς
heis
hice
(Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
Total KJV occurrences: 272
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
G444
ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.
Total KJV occurrences: 560
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
N/A - 'man' not in original text
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
G846
αὐτός
autos
ow-tos'
From the particle αὖ au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a baffling wind; backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the compound of G1438) of the third person, and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare G848.
Total KJV occurrences: 4813
However, Our Heavenly Father (as far as The Holy Scriptures Declare) is Spirit and does not have a 'Body' or is ever referred to as a 'Man' - whereas Jesus did indeed have a 'Body of a Man' when in a physical body, and The Scriptures also state that as well as being 'like' a Man, Jesus now, is indeed a 'Man' of 'The Man' (the original prototype).
If Jesus (now) did not have a 'Spiritual Body of a Man', how on Earth are His Elect ever going to 'see Him as He is', as no man can ever see Spirit - and even if His Elect when raised with Spiritual Bodies were to see 'Him as He is' with say, perhaps, 'spiritual eyes', it still begs the question, how on Earth can His Elect see 'Spirit' or 'Jesus without a Body'. Off course I am assuming that it is 'Jesus' that His Elect will see 'Him face to Face' - but the same point still applies, if it was either 'Our Heavenly Father' or both 'The Father and The Son'.
To me, The Father provided His Son with a natural Body, which after Jesus died, was Resurrected into a Spiritual Body - and Jesus appeared in this Spiritual Body to His Disciples, Apostles and others in this Spiritual Body (and ate fish with this Spiritual Body) - and The Scriptures clearly state that 'This Same Jesus (In His Spiritual Body) who went up to Heaven will return to Earth in The Clouds.
So, I cannot from The Holy Scriptures discount the Verses that clearly state that Jesus is 'now' a 'Man', or that 'He will return as He Is - In His Resurrected Spiritual Body as a Man'.
Also, the modern word for 'man' in Greek is:
ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
This is extremely interesting though.
I am sure we are all of the same 'Mind of Christ' in that, it is the 'Sum of His Word that is Truth'.
Warmest Regards.
George
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However, Our Heavenly Father (as far as The Holy Scriptures Declare) is Spirit and does not have a 'Body' or is ever referred to as a 'Man' - whereas Jesus did indeed have a 'Body of a Man' when in a physical body, and The Scriptures also state that as well as being 'like' a Man, Jesus now, is indeed a 'Man' of 'The Man' (the original prototype).
If Jesus (now) did not have a 'Spiritual Body of a Man', how on Earth are His Elect ever going to 'see Him as He is', as no man can ever see Spirit - and even if His Elect when raised with Spiritual Bodies were to see 'Him as He is' with say, perhaps, 'spiritual eyes', it still begs the question, how on Earth can His Elect see 'Spirit' or 'Jesus without a Body'. Off course I am assuming that it is 'Jesus' that His Elect will see 'Him face to Face' - but the same point still applies, if it was either 'Our Heavenly Father' or both 'The Father and The Son'.
To me, The Father provided His Son with a natural Body, which after Jesus died, was Resurrected into a Spiritual Body - and Jesus appeared in this Spiritual Body to His Disciples, Apostles and others in this Spiritual Body (and ate fish with this Spiritual Body) - and The Scriptures clearly state that 'This Same Jesus (In His Spiritual Body) who went up to Heaven will return to Earth in The Clouds.
So, I cannot from The Holy Scriptures discount the Verses that clearly state that Jesus is 'now' a 'Man', or that 'He will return as He Is - In His Resurrected Spiritual Body as a Man'.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other?
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Changed from what to what? From this physical body into something different.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is not the body of an earthly man.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Just a little like Him or a lot like Him? But for sure something greater than a fleshly, earthly man.
I suggest it is a spiritual body that 'appears' as a man as shown to the Apostles and others. But certainly not a physical body that has great limitations, e.g., cannot see behind His head.
Those raised incorruptible will have Christ like spiritual bodies that may 'appear' as a man.
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Dennis -
Wow!
I will try and respond to each of your points:
However, Our Heavenly Father (as far as The Holy Scriptures Declare) is Spirit and does not have a 'Body' or is ever referred to as a 'Man' - whereas Jesus did indeed have a 'Body of a Man' when in a physical body, and The Scriptures also state that as well as being 'like' a Man, Jesus now, is indeed a 'Man' of 'The Man' (the original prototype).
If Jesus (now) did not have a 'Spiritual Body of a Man', how on Earth are His Elect ever going to 'see Him as He is', as no man can ever see Spirit - and even if His Elect when raised with Spiritual Bodies were to see 'Him as He is' with say, perhaps, 'spiritual eyes', it still begs the question, how on Earth can His Elect see 'Spirit' or 'Jesus without a Body'. Off course I am assuming that it is 'Jesus' that His Elect will see 'Him face to Face' - but the same point still applies, if it was either 'Our Heavenly Father' or both 'The Father and The Son'.
To me, The Father provided His Son with a natural Body, which after Jesus died, was Resurrected into a Spiritual Body - and Jesus appeared in this Spiritual Body to His Disciples, Apostles and others in this Spiritual Body (and ate fish with this Spiritual Body) - and The Scriptures clearly state that 'This Same Jesus (In His Spiritual Body) who went up to Heaven will return to Earth in The Clouds.
So, I cannot from The Holy Scriptures discount the Verses that clearly state that Jesus is 'now' a 'Man', or that 'He will return as He Is - In His Resurrected Spiritual Body as a Man'.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other?
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Changed from what to what? From this physical body into something different.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is not the body of an earthly man.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Just a little like Him or a lot like Him? But for sure something greater than a fleshly, earthly man.
I suggest it is a spiritual body that 'appears' as a man as shown to the Apostles and others. But certainly not a physical body that has great limitations, e.g., cannot see behind His head.
Those raised incorruptible will have Christ like spiritual bodies that may 'appear' as a man.
1. Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.
2. Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?
3. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Changed from what to what? From this physical body into something different. George - Changed into New Spiritual Bodies like that of Jesus Christ.
4. Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is not the body of an earthly man. George: Agreed.
5. 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Just a little like Him or a lot like Him? But for sure something greater than a fleshly, earthly man. George: Agreed - A LOT like Him - and greater than a fleshly Earthly man.
I suggest it is a spiritual body that 'appears' as a man as shown to the Apostles and others. But certainly not a physical body that has great limitations, e.g., cannot see behind His head.
George: Agreed.
Those raised incorruptible will have Christ like spiritual bodies that may 'appear' as a man. George: Agreed.
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I now, do not see what you see Dennis, as I am in agreement with all of your statements above - yet Jesus is now still a 'Man with a Spiritual Body'; and 'Our Heavenly Father' has never been referred to as a 'Man' albeit His Elect will see 'Our Heavenly Father' when they see 'Jesus'.
Have I missed something Dennis?
Warmest Regards.
George
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We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.
I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes.
Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?
The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image.
The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men.
We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God.
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Dennis, once again, Wow - I will try and respond to your points below:
We know there are angels, perhaps millions of them. Don't they somehow 'see' or recognize each other? George: Angels do see each other, and Angels have 'Spiritual Bodies'.
I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes.
Jesus has seen His Father and if we've seen Him we've seen the Father. Certainly Jesus was not talking about his physical body. George: I agree that Jesus has seen His Father; and Jesus now has a Spiritual Body. Are you saying that when Philip saw Jesus as a Natural man, Philip had also seen The Father (because Jesus is 'The Image and Representative and spokesman of His Father)?
The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image.
The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.
Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men.
We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God.
A. I quoted the word 'see' and used the word recognize for a reason George. Angels do not see with physical eyes. George: Are you saying that Angels see with their minds or some other way? Does The Resurrected Jesus not have a Spiritual Body with two eyes? Will His Elect not have a Spiritual Body with two eyes?
B. The word 'image' does not have to mean, and many times does not mean physical image. George: Agreed - I know that 'image' does not always been a 'physical image'.
C. The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings. George: Agreed - but Jesus is still referred in some New Testament Scriptures as a 'Man' and not 'like a Man'.
D: Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Angels can 'appear' as men. That does not mean they are men. George: Agreed.
E: We are not yet in the 'image' of God. We are in the process of being made in the 'image' of God. George: Agreed.
Warmest Regards.
George
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No George - Jesus does not need two physical eyes to see or even two spiritual eyes to see. Do you think He cannot now see through walls, etc? Eyes like ours cannot see through walls, etc. Do you think His eyes register on a physical brain?
He is our advocate and pleads our case before the Father.
If there are a million people praying to Him does He need a million ears to hear? Of course not. Nor does He need a million eyes to see.
The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.
You cannot just ignore these words. They add meaning.
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Dennis -
Thank you for pointing these things out:
No George - Jesus does not need two physical eyes to see or even two spiritual eyes to see. Do you think He cannot now see through walls, etc? Eyes like ours cannot see through walls, etc. Do you think His eyes register on a physical brain?
He is our advocate and pleads our case before the Father.
If there are a million people praying to Him does He need a million ears to hear? Of course not. Nor does He need a million eyes to see.
The words "one like", "appearance of", "like a", and "type of" are used in conjunction with 'man' for a reason. They have obvious meanings.
You cannot just ignore these words. They add meaning.
I will seek His Face furthermore on this subject - and await His Revelation to me.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Jesus declared that all authority in heaven and earth was given to Him by God.
1. When did that happen?
2. Of which heaven was He speaking? The universe?
It would seem from the scripture you referenced that Christ received all power in heaven and earth at that time, when he was resurrected.
(Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
As the son of Man, I believe He had "emptied" Himself of His previous glory.
(Php 2:6) Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
(Php 2:7) nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
The heavens, refer to authority over the heavenly spiritual forces that we wrestle with.
(Eph 6:12) for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials." ( heavens)
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Dear forum members
Ray addressed many of the points which have been raised in this thread ; the audio of the
2007 Nashville Conference: (audio 6) 'THE UNIVERSE!' http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_6.mp3 is one which will shed light on many of the uncertainties which people have been contemplating.
I was "led" to listen to them by randomly selecting a copy I had made onto a cassette and was pleasantly surprised to hear Ray speaking on this very topic.
May I suggest that you take time to have a listen.
There are transcripts also available, for which I am sure Dave can supply details.
Another is (audio 7A) 'WHO IS THE FATHER?' http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7A.mp3
Some might not be aware of points made clear by Ray in this conference, many years ago, and will find them illuminating and helpful in refreshing what had “faded” for me. Colin