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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: repottinger on September 06, 2015, 03:03:09 PM
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Hello all,
One of my many criticisms of orthodox Christianity is its tendency to make idols of institutions like patriotism, nationalism, and statism (which can all be included under the term “civil religion,” I guess). As shown by the following verses:
John 18:36, AKJV
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
II Corinthians 5:20, AKJV
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
II Corinthians 6:14-18, AKJV
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 and what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,18 and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Ephesians 2:19, AKJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Ephesians 6:12, AKJV
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Philippians 3:18-20, AKJV
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation (often translated as "citizenship") is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
II Timothy 2:4, AKJV
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
Hebrews 11:13-16, AKJV
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded ofthem, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
James 4:4, AKJV
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
I John 2:15-17, AKJV
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
To me (and most of us here, I would think), these verses show that our minds are not to be on worldly matters such as politics and patriotism, and that, by conforming to the larger culture and putting their faith and efforts into things like the nation-state, ethnic or racial group, and government (as we are all indoctrinated to do from childhood by our Babylonian society), mainstream Christians are committing a type of idolatry.
I know that Ray addressed this subject in general numerous times, but I would appreciate it if anyone could tell me if he ever specifically mentioned the idolatry aspect of it; I would also welcome any comments or thoughts that anyone might have.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Hi Randy and folks,
When I was very young, during WW2 I was aware of the minister requesting prayers for our soldiers to overcome, destroy, annihilate the Japanese and Nazi German hordes that attacked our nation. I was aware that Martin Luther the namesake of local Lutheran folks we knew was a German and that many immigrants to America were Germans, like my ancestors. In fact I had been called a Nazi by school children just to tease me.
I had many questions in my young head and no real answers.
So then, how did we all or each pray to the same God to answer prayers for German Lutheran families and for American, Canadian, British Lutheran families. Especially when I had learned that 14 year old boys were being conscripted by Adolph Hitler to fight for Germany. Would God take sides? The German boys didn't start the war. And toward the end history tells us that the allies used Carpet bombing around munitions factories knowing that "innocent civilians" were being annihilated along with factory workers.
It is a sad situation and it all fits into God's plan, but can we believers at least remain neutral?
Indiana Bob
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To add on to Bob's comment:
Given the alternative available to the carnal mind, I'm glad for the allied victory in that war. But what Bob started to understand at 14, it took me twice as long to understand, and twice that to refine--that 1. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. and 2. NOBODY has a will free from cause and ultimately free from God.
In this world, there are only alternatives. Alternatives which are more or less or about-the-same good; and more or less or about-the-same evil than the 'thing' they wish to supplant or replace or compete with. With every 'good' comes or has come an evil. And with every evil, comes or has come a good. You can't have one without the other until we eat of the tree of LIFE. 100% happiness for all is not going to flow from any earthly paradigm.
So. What is the 'alternative' to the nation-state? If it's defined, what is more good or less evil about it than the nation-state?
If it can be defined, and if it can be determined that it is a worthy replacement, what then? MAYBE this is one reason WE are called not to be entangled. Because once entangled in an ideology or platform, or party, or movement, we can then simply shift our "allegiance" or "patriotism" to the new paradigm. Don't tell me it can't be done...I've done it. MAYBE we are always to speak truth to power. God help us if we don't KNOW the truth. Maybe we are ALWAYS supposed to look after the orphans and widows of all sides.
Bob said can't we be 'neutral'. I think I understand what he means in the context of this discussion. I think of it more as can't we be 'above'. But let us not think too highly of ourselves. We're not really THAT kind of 'above'. You want to be THAT kind of 'above' you better be the servant of all.
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Yes, Bob, I’ve also thought about the insanity of both sides in a war praying to the same God for victory, but, as you noted, Dave, there is no room for hubris in this situation, because most of us used to be in exactly the same place as the rest of Christianity.
Randy
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Amen Dave.
Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our citizenship is in the heavens; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Ephesians 2:5-7
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in the heavens, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Just some scriptures that I felt contribute to this discussion.
God bless,
Alex
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Thank you, Alex. The scriptures you share always contribute tremendously to the discussion; I always really appreciate them.
Sincerely,
Randy
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This morning I read this marvelous truth from the Lake of Fire (page 56): "even the things that are perceived to be hindrances to God's will are not hindrances at all, but rather are the very instruments for the accomplishment of his will."
Nationalism can be appealing for a variety of reasons, and for many people it is probably their highest hope in life. Thank God that we have hopes for something better. And thank God we don't have to get involved and try to "fix" things by voting in better leaders.
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I completely agree, Extol, and again, it shows how blessed all of use here are to be chosen by God to have these truths rervealed to us.
Randy
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yes, yes and yes!!! Always thought there might be something missing in myself because I wasn't very patriotic. I am grateful to be living in this country but there have been grand empires of the past I would have liked to live in also. This country isn't perfect. I do and will always support our troops though, I know they went voluntarily but some have suffered so much horror.
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No, Judy, I definitely don’t think that there’s anything “missing” in you if you’re not patriotic, at least in the eyes of God’s people. One other verse that I forgot to reference is John 18:36 (AKJV):
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Thanks a lot for your comment.
Sincerely,
Randy
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Nationalism definitely can become idolatry. Anything can become an idol. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich can become an idol.
When does nationalism become idolatry?
We can't serve two masters.
Christ said love your enemies.
Nationalism says kill your enemies. Christ died to give us freedom. Nationalism says kill others for your freedom.
Christ said don't just hear and agree with His words but do them. So if we agree with His words but then with our actions we do the opposite out of loyalty to Nationalism, then isn't it clear where our loyalties lie? Isn't it clear who we serve and who/what our god is?
Is there a difference between bowing down to a golden calf or putting my hand over my heart as I pledge my allegiance to a piece of cloth?
Scripture says we are not of this world, do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, do not love this world, if you're a friend to this world you're an enemy of God.
Nationalism says we are of this world and in particular this geographical land mass, and we must love or at the very least be loyal to this worldly kingdom or nation. And if we aren't going to kill and/or die in service to this worldly kingdom then we should at least be thankful and supportive of those who do.
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You make an interesting point, Largeli, that anything, such as food, can become an idol if we put it first in our lives. I think that nationalism is different in one respect, because there is a proper place in the life of a Christian for things like eating, which are normal, necessary activities if not done to excess, but we are specifically told not to practice to any degree such things as promoting the interests of our own culture and nation above other those of other nations of this world. Thus, there is no room at all for nationalistic feelings or practices in the lives of God’s people.
Thanks a lot for your comment,
Randy
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You make an interesting point, Largeli, that anything, such as food, can become an idol if we put it first in our lives. I think that nationalism is different in one respect, because there is a proper place in the life of a Christian for things like eating, which are normal, necessary activities if not done to excess, but we are specifically told not to practice to any degree such things as promoting the interests of our own culture and nation above other those of other nations of this world. Thus, there is no room at all for nationalistic feelings or practices in the lives of God’s people.
Thanks a lot for your comment,
Randy
I agree with you on this. I have a question though.. Several times in the book of Acts we read about Paul declaring his Roman citizenship. He did not promote Roman culture above any other culture but he did claim his roman citizenship in order to avoid being wrongly mistreated.
What do you make of this?
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You make an interesting point, Largeli, that anything, such as food, can become an idol if we put it first in our lives. I think that nationalism is different in one respect, because there is a proper place in the life of a Christian for things like eating, which are normal, necessary activities if not done to excess, but we are specifically told not to practice to any degree such things as promoting the interests of our own culture and nation above other those of other nations of this world. Thus, there is no room at all for nationalistic feelings or practices in the lives of God’s people.
Thanks a lot for your comment,
Randy
Don't know.
But one of the things Ray taught me is every word has a meaning and that statement means something.
I agree with you on this. I have a question though.. Several times in the book of Acts we read about Paul declaring his Roman citizenship. He did not promote Roman culture above any other culture but he did claim his roman citizenship in order to avoid being wrongly mistreated.
What do you make of this?
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You make an interesting point, Largeli, that anything, such as food, can become an idol if we put it first in our lives. I think that nationalism is different in one respect, because there is a proper place in the life of a Christian for things like eating, which are normal, necessary activities if not done to excess, but we are specifically told not to practice to any degree such things as promoting the interests of our own culture and nation above other those of other nations of this world. Thus, there is no room at all for nationalistic feelings or practices in the lives of God’s people.
Thanks a lot for your comment,
Randy
I agree with you on this. I have a question though.. Several times in the book of Acts we read about Paul declaring his Roman citizenship. He did not promote Roman culture above any other culture but he did claim his roman citizenship in order to avoid being wrongly mistreated.
What do you make of this?
It shows how smart Paul was.
In one place in the Book of Acts, Paul being in the Temple had produced a riot of the Jews in Jerusalem.
The Roman commander took Paul into Fortress Antonia to be beaten with a whip in order to find out the cause of the riot.
It was illegal under Roman law for a Roman citizen to be beaten without a trial.
Paul told the Roman commander that he was a Roman citizen, which caused the Commander not to beat Paul.
Paul used his legal rights in order not to suffer a beating. It shows Paul was intelligent with a sound mind.
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That’s a very good question, Largeli. I completely agree with what you wrote, John, and I might add that we’re also told to be “subject unto the higher powers” because they are “sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” As we read:
Romans 13:1-7, AKJV
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
I Peter 2:13-17, AKJV
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
So, it would seem that things like reporting crimes to the police or making use of laws that might benefit us without compromising our faith are acceptable to God, because, in those cases, we’re “sent…into” the world, but are “not of the world,” as we would be by participating in such things as partisan politics or nationalistic or patriotic pursuits. (“13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” [John 17:13-19, AKJV])
Thanks again for your comments,
Randy
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[quote author=John from Kentucky link=topic=16319.msg147475#msg147475
Hi JFK ,
Declaring Roman citizenship also led to Paul being taken to Rome to spread the gospel there. So it seems that Paul's declaration had even more meaning than just his good sense. It seems that all of this was pre-planned by god.
Indiana Bob
date=1442508625]
You make an interesting point, Largeli, that anything, such as food, can become an idol if we put it first in our lives. I think that nationalism is different in one respect, because there is a proper place in the life of a Christian for things like eating, which are normal, necessary activities if not done to excess, but we are specifically told not to practice to any degree such things as promoting the interests of our own culture and nation above other those of other nations of this world. Thus, there is no room at all for nationalistic feelings or practices in the lives of God’s people.
Thanks a lot for your comment,
Randy
I agree with you on this. I have a question though.. Several times in the book of Acts we read about Paul declaring his Roman citizenship. He did not promote Roman culture above any other culture but he did claim his roman citizenship in order to avoid being wrongly mistreated.
What do you make of this?
It shows how smart Paul was.
In one place in the Book of Acts, Paul being in the Temple had produced a riot of the Jews in Jerusalem.
The Roman commander took Paul into Fortress Antonia to be beaten with a whip in order to find out the cause of the riot.
It was illegal under Roman law for a Roman citizen to be beaten without a trial.
Paul told the Roman commander that he was a Roman citizen, which caused the Commander not to beat Paul.
Paul used his legal rights in order not to suffer a beating. It shows Paul was intelligent with a sound mind.
[/quote]
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Yes, Bob, as everything is planned (as most of us here know); this particular chain of events was just much more momentous than most as far as God's plan for humanity is concerned.
Thanks,
Randy
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So, it would seem that things like reporting crimes to the police or making use of laws that might benefit us without compromising our faith are acceptable to God,
It might seem that way.. But are there any examples or instructions in Christs teachings or in the epistles that would have us call upon those who bare the sword to punish a crime? I can't think of any.. Based off what is written in the New Testament I also can't imagine Christ or Paul or any of the apostles calling upon the Roman soldiers to report a crime.
Doesn't the might of any government lie in that governments ability to punish law breakers? If a government did not have the authority to punish law breakers then wouldn't that governments laws no longer be laws but merely suggestions?
The Roman soldiers or police are those who's job it is to enforce laws by using violence (the sword) or the threat of violence. I can't imagine Christ calling upon the enforcers of mans laws to punish a violator of mans laws. I can't imagine Christ calling upon the enforcers of mans laws to punish a violator of Gods laws either.
Didn't Christ teach that we should not resist an evil man? If a man strikes me on the face and I turn the other cheek.. But then afterwards I report this man to the authorities then have I truly turned the other cheek?
Christ said if we live by the sword we will die by the sword. If I call upon the sword of the government to report a crime aren't I living by the sword?
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"...Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."
Matt 22:21
Mark 12:17
Luke 20:25
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G’day John
The thoughts expressed by those who have contributed have been good in encouraging our consideration of the topic and comparison with relevant scriptures. Bare verses, without commentary can leave us perplexed and left to guess at the intended input behind a posting. Could I suggest that for an improved friendly “family discussion”, that a hint of your views be provided? That way, all readers with varying levels of understanding could benefit. Colin
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G’day John
The thoughts expressed by those who have contributed have been good in encouraging our consideration of the topic and comparison with relevant scriptures. Bare verses, without commentary can leave us perplexed and left to guess at the intended input behind a posting. Could I suggest that for an improved friendly “family discussion”, that a hint of your views be provided? That way, all readers with varying levels of understanding could benefit. Colin
For those who have the Spirit of God, God's Words in the Scriptures, especially the Words of Jesus, do not need commentary. God will give understanding.
Are you telling me that you do not understand the Words of Jesus, which I quoted from three Scriptures? ::) As Ray once said, "I may have been born at night, but not last night."
Besides, through the ages we have had way too much commentary from mankind. I prefer the Commentary of God, which He expresses in His Word.
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Dear Colin,
Your suggestions will always be ignored by John. That is because he is MUCH smarter than you and MUCH closer to God.
Just thought I'd save you some effort... ;)
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Dear Colin,
Your suggestions will always be ignored by John. That is because he is MUCH smarter than you and MUCH closer to God.
Just thought I'd save you some effort... ;)
Neo,
You sound like you have a sour stomach. My grandmother always recommended a bowl of blackberries in such a case.
In Christian love,
Dr. JFK
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Well, Largeli, I think that if I add emphases to some of the passages I had cited, it might help to answer your questions:
Romans 13:1-7, AKJV
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
I Peter 2:13-17, AKJV
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
So we see that the representative of the state (which would include such things as the government, military, and police, I would think) “is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil,” and that these ministers “are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers.” To me, this means that they are there for our legitimate use (as in reporting a serious violent crime like a murder or robbery) and that, if we call upon them, we aren’t “living by the sword,” but, in effect, using one kind of “evildoer” (the government representative, who stands for and upholds the Babylonian world system)--from a Christian standpoint, since we are not “of the world”--to “punish” another (the criminal).
Thanks a lot for such interesting thoughts on the subject.
Randy
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And thank you, John, for such pertinent scriptures about differentiating between our responsibilities to God and the Government.
Randy
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Well, Largeli, I think that if I add emphases to some of the passages I had cited, it might help to answer your questions:
Romans 13:1-7, AKJV
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
I Peter 2:13-17, AKJV
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
So we see that the representative of the state (which would include such things as the government, military, and police, I would think) “is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil,” and that these ministers “are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers.” To me, this means that they are there for our legitimate use (as in reporting a serious violent crime like a murder or robbery) and that, if we call upon them, we aren’t “living by the sword,” but, in effect, using one kind of “evildoer” (the government representative, who stands for and upholds the Babylonian world system)--from a Christian standpoint, since we are not “of the world”--to “punish” another (the criminal).
Thanks a lot for such interesting thoughts on the subject.
Randy
I have trouble understanding why Paul and Peter wrote these verses. I pray the Lord gives me wisdom to understand these verses.. Paul and Peter were both preaching Jesus Christ who was killed by the government. Paul himself persecuted Christs followers.. I believe Peter and most of the other apostles would soon be executed by the government also.
History is tells us that government is the leading cause of violent death. The Jewish and Christian holocaust of ww2 was legal. Which is to say it was sanctioned by the government. Slavery was legal.
I can understand obeying and complying with the rulers and authorities even if they're wicked. Same as turning the other cheek when wronged. I can even obey and comply with full joy.. No problem. They are ordained by God, absolutely. But to say that they aren't a terror to those who do good? I can't understand that because in many governments it has been or is to this day illegal to have a bible... Feed a homeless person... Illegal to be a certain race... Illegal to pray...
This brings us full circle back to the Nationalism/Statism as a religion issue... So is it that if one takes the commandments (laws) of a government and uses these laws as their barometer for what is good and evil then that is what constitutes a religion?
Obeying and submitting to the authorities which God has established over us is a good thing. But that doesn't mean that those authorities themselves are good. I don't believe Paul or Peter ever said that the authorities themselves are good... Unless I'm missing it. They did say that they are there for good but not that they are good.
I can obey and submit but I can't say that governments are at all righteous because governments are simply man ruling over man using violence albeit by Gods will. But if I pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven then I can't approve of things being done on earth as they are done on earth. When Christ comes to rule, man will no longer rule over his fellow man with violence. Righteousness will rule and until then wicked man will rule.. All by Gods will of course.
I'm thinking out loud at this point.. I'll continue to pray for wisdom.
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Hi Largeli,
Ray talked about the synagogue of Satan of Jesus’s day and asked if you think the church has gotten any better ?
Do you think the governments of the world have gotten any better ? I look at everything that is happening on planet earth like this, we are here for and experience of good and evil, what goes on we can agree is not right but its necessary for becoming sons and daughters of God.
Also, God has given us and experience of evil to humble us. Also remember Ray talking about virtue, one has to overcome some form of evil if they are to receive virtue.
I believe it will be easier in the next age for anyone who goes through the lake of fire because Jesus will reign as king of kings and I would assume that right doing will be rewarded unlike it is in this age.
These days I no longer look at what’s going on directly but rather ask what is its meaning and more over what am I to learn or understand from it.
If God wanted this age to be the garden of Eden He could of made it that way, obvious its not His intentions at this time, so with patients, love and forgiveness, worry about nothing in this life for God says we cannot change a single hair on our head white or black by worrying so be anxious for nothing. And keep praying.
God bless. :)
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Those are great points, Rick—especially about the importance of learning from our experiences on this earth in preparing us to one day rule as sons and daughters of God.
Thanks a lot,
Randy
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You ask a lot of fantastic questions, Largeli, and I’m sure that there are a lot of people who are more well-qualified than I am to answer them. I just think that our attitude toward government should be like that of the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets (though not that of leaders such as Moses, Joshua, and the judges and kings, who were acting under God-ordained governments, unlike all believers since their time) and Christ and the apostles in the New—one of peaceful submission, unless we are asked to do things contrary to God’s word:
Acts 5:29, AKJV
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
And I agree with you that worldly governments are not righteous by any means—they’re of the world, and so could never be considered so by God’s people:
John 17:9, AKJV
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
John 18:36, AKJV
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I John 2:16, AKJV
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
This probably hasn’t been very helpful to you, but I’ll be sure to pray for God to increase your understanding and peace of mind (along with that of the rest of us) on this difficult subject.
Sincerely,
Randy
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Just some thoughts.
Jesus said, "Love your neighbors"--agape. "Love your enemies". --agape.
John said "Love not the world, neither the things of the world"--agape.
Now I know those three don't contradict. But I see them often quoted "against" each other, particularly Jesus's vs. John's.
I need more than one reason to get out of bed in the morning. I also need more than one 'verse' to 'understand' just what God wants out of me in any situation.
I understand that I am an ambassador of Christ. I understand that I am not to get entangled in the affairs of the world--most especially in a "worldly" manner. To me that especially would be "loving the things of the world". But am I wrong to be thankful when good things happen in the world? Is it ONLY an experience of Evil which the Lord gives us to humble us? Doesn't He also give us 'experiences of good?' Isn't there "good" also in the fruit?
The very reason Jesus gave to 'agape' our enemies is:
Mat 5:44, 45 ...Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
If we are here to learn (and I very much think we are) then isn't there something to be learned from the "good" we encounter? Am I supposed to believe that there is no such thing as 'good'?
But I need more than one reason to "not get entangled". Here's more than one that apply to me. Your mileage may vary.
1. Involvement in politics on a level far above me seems to me vanity and pride. I've lived that.
2. It causes me no end of grief, loss of faith, and temptation to 'hate' my 'political' foes. And since I have no 'earthly' power, that too is vanity. I've lived that too.
We're told that a good life is:
Mic_6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
What if I see "injustice", "no mercy" and "walking proudly"? I know God hates these things. Surely, my first concern is to make sure that I'M "doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly." First I have to judge myself. But if I judge myself "not guilty", then what? If the beam is out of MY eye, then what?
Should I not at the least be thankful when there is movement towards "justice, mercy, humility"? Should I call out hypocrisy when I see it? And to whom, if I should? The whole world? The 'church'? My little corner of the world where my 'light' can actually be seen?
Did Ray write and record all these volumes to engage in a theological debate? You have no idea how disappointed I would be if I were to learn that was true.
So if the "nation" and the "world" are not (yet) my domain, what about my community? That's really where my neighbors are, and where this little grain of salt has fallen. Can I do something 'here' that won't cause me to 'hate' or feed my vanity and pride? Can I be part of something that partners with 'government' to try to do some good? Big or small? Maybe that might mean calling the police to end a string of robberies or burglaries? Maybe working against some injustice? Maybe feed or otherwise help some people? Maybe? Assuming I don't loose faith and my 'foes' are not 'political'--not even people at all--but conditions? Even if it is ultimately pointless in this age, is it always going to be like that? And isn't there something to learn from trying?
I know that for the flesh, nothing really ends 'well'. But if we really are 'in training', is it sufficient that we only concern ourselves with the 'evil'? "Be ye separate"...is that the end of that? Or can I maybe 'be separate' in another way as well, by doing good when most everybody else is watching TV and eating Cheetos, or sitting in pews singing endless 'praise songs'?
I'm not saying I do much good. I don't. Like Ray said, he thought he ought to do some more of these 'good' things, but he was doing what God called HIM to do. Maybe to a degree, so am I. But at the least I want to understand what it really MEANS to 'let my light shine'.
If I can misquote and expand on what Extol said...he said that for many people, 'nationalism' was their 'highest hope'. Maybe I can soften that a bit and say that for many people "love of country" is their highest calling. Even though that statement is a little sad, I really think that for most of them it is a "good" thing, as things go, even with all the baggage that may go along with it. It can inspire them to something above selfishness.
Given the alternative in parts of the world removed from my 'comfort' and 'blessing', I can't help but be thankful when oligarchs and despots get replaced by legitimate--even if imperfect--governments in places like Africa and South America. God set Kings for His purpose, but He also brought them down. I just can't bring myself to tell 'those' people that they should do nothing. That's for them to decide. How and why things are done matters as much as what is done...maybe even more-so, because 'how' and 'why' are spiritual. Jesus will judge righteously, both good and bad.
I'm not so sure I should be telling myself to do nothing either. Those three scriptures do not contradict. If somebody has a better idea how to 'unify' them (and others), I'm listening.
One thing you should give thanks for is that you are not me. If you need only one reason to get out of bed in the morning, count yourself blessed. :)
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What does it mean when scripture says we are in the world but not apart of the world ? Each must decide its meaning and how to walk therein according to the calling of Christ.
I live in the world, that is easy to understand but to not be of the world is the thing for us to comprehend.
I think to myself everything is about God, God this God that and all the things God is doing and the beautiful plan of God concerning humanity.
And while this is true, to God, is not everything about us His creation ? I always thought I was ok , sure, I knew I had issues but for the most part I thought I was just fine.
What I have been realizing lately is I have a beam in my eye and I’m not ok, I’m not fine at all.
The rest of my life will be spent having that beam removed from my eye, then I’ll be able to see clearly. We know its Christ who will remove the beam from our eye and not us.
Everything is about us and our being raised up by God, as Christ slowly pulls that beam from my eye I start to see how sick I’ve been, how horrible I am ( carnal minded ) the carnal mind is capable of anything under the sun.
How can I remove the log from my brothers eye when I have a beam in my own eye ? If I do a good thing for someone is it me doing that good thing ? Or is it the love of God flowing thought me that causes me to do that good thing ?
Everything that is good comes from God, without God doing it, is it possible for any human being to do good on their own ?
Everything Ray teaches leads to the beam being removed from our eye, how about the doctrine of hell ? When one comes to understand that this is the doctrine of demons then a small piece of that beam has been removed and so on and so forth.
I used to be a political junkie, I loved politics, I wanted to see this one or that one get in office because I thought they could make a difference. Today I’m not a political junkie, I understand that all politicians live under the same cause and effects just like the rest of us.
When I look at politics today and what the government is doing I think to myself what is God causing them to do and what am I to understand by it. What is God teaching us.
I’m a brother in Christ having the beam removed from my eye and that is a lifetime process. But each day with Christ I see just a little more clearly, I believe when that beam is removed completely I will be with Christ age after age.
God bless. :)
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Hi Dave,
This may be my very quick take on your post but let me just say that I don't necessarily agree with you that we are even to 'try' and affect change in our 'local' area. I think we need to be focused inwardly on dying to self and through this process our light will naturally shine and permeate our surroundings. Rejoice over good if you want but God is absolutely sovereign and things are going exactly as He planned. God is not calling the world, He isn't even choosing many but only a few and then from that He is justifying even less. He's working with us on a personal level right now and I don't see Him currently interested in transforming us to affect change in the world (or even our local area) at this point in time though that change may naturally follow by God's work in us. When Christ returns and we are like Him, in character and form, then I believe is when He will begin using us to affect the world.
Jesus rebuked the pharisees for not cleaning what was on the inside of them so that the outside would follow. He rebuked them for putting on a show on the outside but being full of dead men bones on the inside. It is not to be so with us. Paul tells us to live quiet and peaceable lives in more than one place. Keep your eyes on Christ and the rest will follow. Don't worry about affecting change anywhere not even locally. That light will shine but when we turn our attention from God towards actually affecting change in our area, I believe (in my humble opinion) we are turning from what He is doing in us to what we can do of our own power. I see it similarly to how we once thought we had to save ourselves until we realized that God was going to save us in His time, through His means, and by His power.
Now as for the Agape and Phileo loves. It appears to me that John isn't saying, "don't agape your enemies" which Jesus commanded, but rather that we shouldn't love the world in its curroptness and evil that occurs. So in other words, don't love the world's WAYS. Don't partake in it. Be seperate from this. We are a [holy] nation onto ourselves with God as our King, a royal priesthood, our citenzship is in the heavens and not on this earth. We agape our enemies the same way God does because we see them for who they will be one day in God. We don't agape the world which is under satan's control right now because that world and its ways as they are now will cease to exist. God will completely destroy it when He ushers in His kingdom.
That's my quick thought on this. I, of course, should put more thought into it and I will return to consider this further but I wanted to share a quick at glance idea that came to my mind upon reading your post. Feel free to agree or disagree.
God bless,
Alex
P.S. Please forgive me if I completely mis understood you, its early morning and I got very little sleep last night... was up late studying and my daughter woke me brigth and early >.>
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I agree with Alex, how can any of us think about making a difference with a beam in our own eye. Christ is working with us, not the world. It is we who are being prepared here and now.
When Christ returns then the beam in our eye will be removed and then we will see clearly to help all others.
As long as we are in these fleshly bodies the beam remains regardless of the knowledge we gain but this knowledge we gain is in preparation of reigning with Christ.
Its about us right now, not the world or most of humanity. The world to us is only a place that God uses as a testing ground for our growth, and that growth is ultimately making us into the sons and daughters of God.
The difference between Christendom and Rays teaching is I finally understand these truths.
As far as the government is concerned its going to do what God intended it to do no mater how you view it, Gods will, will be done.
God bless.
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Do consider what Christ said about how we should live and the effect that has.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden.
v. 15 People don't light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lamp stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
v. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Do consider what Christ said about how we should live and the effect that has.
v. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good actions and glorify your Father in heaven."
What does it look like to other people when you 'die to self'?
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Hi Kat,
I fully agree with your statement, however in our beginning when Christ calls us we are in a state of wretchedness but we don’t realize it because we are blind.
I remember when I first learned some truths that Ray had taught I wanted to tell the whole world but even though I had learned some truths, truths like hell is a Christian hoax but I was still wretched and had not a clue.
Mat 5:14 is true (You are the light of the world ) but the question I ask is when does it become true in a believers life ?
Christ said to the apostles ,( to you it is given ) but Ray said when was it given ? It was not until Pentecost that they received what Christ had said.
This world in this aged is not interested in Gods truth nor does it want it because it is carnal and the carnal mind hates God.
What I see and understand is the only ones interested in truth are those who are not perishing, all those who are perishing will be interested in Gods truth in the next age as we are interested in Gods truth in this age.
Could it be that Mat 5 :14 becomes truth in a believes life in the next age when we will be the light of the world?
God bless.
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Some of those "perishing" are alive today. If you were, so are they. Besides, He came to seek and to save those that are 'perishing'.
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Hi Dave,
The true light has come into the world but the world comprehended it not because the world prefers darkness over the light.
I understand that any light that shines forth from a believer is proportional to the work Christ does in us, no mater how bright the light shines in the darkness, the world comprehend it not.
Will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?
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Some of those "perishing" are alive today. If you were, so are they. Besides, He came to seek and to save those that are 'perishing'.
Hi Dave
I agree to disagree with your statement, Christ has come to seek and save those the Father has given Him, but Christ has not come to saved all in this aged.
Christ is savior of the world but the whole world is not being saved in this aged.
God bless.
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Hi Dave,
The true light has come into the world but the world comprehended it not because the world prefers darkness over the light.
I understand that any light that shines forth from a believer is proportional to the work Christ does in us, no mater how bright the light shines in the darkness, the world comprehend it not.
Will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?
Hi Rick, we are a light just by seeking to live a righteous life - obedient to Christ's commandments. Yes we are still in the carnal flesh, but we are learning and should be applying what we learn in our lives... that is the light that shines forth. Of course this is Christ working in us teaching us how to live, but we are overcoming and should bare that out in our words and actions... we should be producing good fruit.
Eph 5:8 For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,
v. 9 for the fruit that the light produces consists of every form of goodness, righteousness, and truth.
I don't think believers are changing the world per say, but we are a living example/light to the world and that certainly does effect those around us in a positive way, whether they understand the truth are not. Our family and friends should reap the benefit of our positive influence in their lives.
Php 2:13 For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
v. 14 Do everything without complaining or arguing
v. 15 so that you may be blameless and innocent, God's children without any faults among a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world
v. 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. Then I will be proud when the Messiah returns that I did not run in vain or work hard in vain.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"comprehendeth"
G2638
καταλαμβάνω
katalambanō
Thayer Definition:
1) to lay hold of
1a) to lay hold of so as to make one’s own, to obtain, attain to, to make one’s own, to take into one’s self, appropriate
1b) to seize upon, take possession of
1b1) of evils overtaking one, of the last day overtaking the wicked with destruction, of a demon about to torment one
1b2) in a good sense, of Christ by his holy power and influence laying hold of the human mind and will, in order to prompt and govern it
1c) to detect, catch
1d) to lay hold of with the mind
1d1) to understand, perceive, learn, comprehend
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G2983
Citing in TDNT: 4:9, 495
By that definition, will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?
Joh 1:4, 5 In him was life, and the life was the light of men, and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;
Rom 8:21 that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that all the creation groans together and travails together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but also we ourselves having the firstfruit of the Spirit, also we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly expecting adoption, the redemption of our body...
Rick, I'm well aware of the order of things. So if that is your disagreement, there's no need for it. If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture. You and me and everybody who has 'seen the light' was (by your own testimony) once blind to it. SOME of those NOW blind will 'see', unless the Father has stopped giving Him people. Lest we think we have 'arrived', Paul says that even though we have the first-fruits of His Spirit (assuming, of course, we do) we ALSO eagerly expect adoption.
I know that to some people this means "I want to get rid of every sin". That's true enough. But isn't it also that "I want to be able to do all the good I would like to do?"
Jesus sent out His disciples to heal and cast out demons in His name...before they were spiritually converted. How much more-so after! And how much more so when these bodies are changed.
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Hi Dave,
The true light has come into the world but the world comprehended it not because the world prefers darkness over the light.
I understand that any light that shines forth from a believer is proportional to the work Christ does in us, no mater how bright the light shines in the darkness, the world comprehend it not.
Will the darkness comprehend the light in the next aged when Christ rules as king of kings with the elect ?
Hi Rick, we are a light just by seeking to live a righteous life - obedient to Christ's commandments. Yes we are still in the carnal flesh, but we are learning and should be applying what we learn in our lives... that is the light that shines forth. Of course this is Christ working in us teaching us how to live, but we are overcoming and should bare that out in our words and actions... we should be producing good fruit.
Eph 5:8 For once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light,
v. 9 for the fruit that the light produces consists of every form of goodness, righteousness, and truth.
I don't think believers are changing the world per say, but we are a living example/light to the world and that certainly does effect those around us in a positive way, whether they understand the truth are not. Our family and friends should reap the benefit of our positive influence in their lives.
Php 2:13 For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.
v. 14 Do everything without complaining or arguing
v. 15 so that you may be blameless and innocent, God's children without any faults among a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world
v. 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. Then I will be proud when the Messiah returns that I did not run in vain or work hard in vain.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.
The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.
Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, I’m wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.
God bless.
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Rick, you do understand that everybody in the world is not steeped in wickedness, don't you? The tree of knowledge is of good as well as evil and there are a lot of people that do appreciate good from others. I know people that most certainly respect the good they see others do and maybe they are not yet to be chosen, but they do not despise what is good/light. My family certainly does not hate my trying to live a godly life, or try to extinguish it, but they do not seek understanding of this truth either.
When we display the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) by the grace God has given us, it is noticed by the worldly. We are not trying to convert the world, but we are a living witness of the truth, and our fruit of the spirit is certainly not meant to be directed just towards other believers.
Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I say, Rejoice!
v. 5 Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
Act 22:14 Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
v. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
Thank you for the response, I see I must get involved in damage control ( lol ) when I said people don’t want the truth and will even extinguish the truth, I’m not talking about if you would good people although I believe there are some evil people out there, just watch the news.
I have met awesome people that don’t even believe in God and these people are kind, gentle people who show much love in both words and deeds.
I also will tell you that people who believe in God, the ones who belong to a church are also loving people but when confronted with the truth , not all but some of them are not so kind any more.
I do not believe people are inherently evil we are just created spiritually weak, most folks want to do the right thing but like anyone else they fall short.
People that don’t believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.
Good comes to everyone in this life but evil to all as well, personally I find it a great joy to love all as much as possible .
I certainly do hope you understand my meaning but if you don’t I’ll try to rephrase it again out of love that you seem to think I lack because I had not conveyed myself properly, sorry Kat. :-[
God bless you Kat. :)
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People that don’t believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.
That's not true, Rick.
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People that don’t believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.
That's not true, Rick.
Hi Gina,
I said most likely won’t attack, I speak out of experience because I spoken to people who claim they do not believe in God and I mentioned I did and they were still friendly with me afterwards.
Go ahead and tell some church goers there is no hell or mentioned no one has free will and you’ll find some will argue with you others get verbally vicious, at least that’s my experience, but then again , its not all who do these things.
I only speak of things I have personally experience, if I have not experience something then I don’t really know and if I don’t know about something and comment I think that would be a foolish thing to do.
If you have experience hatred coming from someone who claims they don’t believe in God then your experience has been different from mine it that area.
God bless, and again , its good to see your back Gina.
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If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.
Hi Dave,
I’m not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this aged.
Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.
God bless.
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People that don’t believe in God most likely will never attack you verbally but the ones who will attack you verbally ( believe it or not ) are people who believe in God.
That's not true, Rick.
Hi Gina,
I said most likely won’t attack, I speak out of experience because I spoken to people who claim they do not believe in God and I mentioned I did and they were still friendly with me afterwards.
Go ahead and tell some church goers there is no hell or mentioned no one has free will and you’ll find some will argue with you others get verbally vicious, at least that’s my experience, but then again , its not all who do these things.
I only speak of things I have personally experience, if I have not experience something then I don’t really know and if I don’t know about something and comment I think that would be a foolish thing to do.
If you have experience hatred coming from someone who claims they don’t believe in God then your experience has been different from mine it that area.
God bless, and again , its good to see your back Gina.
Oh, yes, my experience has been different. That's what I should have said.
I have tried to tell Christians that there is no hell, and yes, they do get pretty wound up, as is evidenced by Ray's email replies from self-professed Christians.
To be fair, I have argued and debated right back. That doesn't help. But as a believer, I haven't attacked them for their beliefs. I just mocked them a little.
But that doesn't negate that there are atheists out there who attack verbally (I wouldn't use the term attack though - mock would be a fairer statement) when you even just mention the word God. You get the whole diatribe about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, blah, blah, blah, and believing in fairy tales and just being plain stupid. But we are to count it all joy when we are persecuted.
I rarely bring up the hell topic with church going Christians face to face because frankly I don't need to and I don't know that many especially since I don't attend church any longer - Hallelujah and thank God for that. Sometimes on the internet but it's becoming rare that I do that because of where it leads. And arguing about it just gets to be like trying to convince someone against their will: they're of the same opinion still. They don't want to hear a sermon, they want to see one.
Thanks for your warm welcome, Rick. :)
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Correction: I know church going Christians, but I don't associate with them on a personal level. I have one good friend who believes that hell exists but doesn't really attend church, and we've had discussions about my belief, but because I care about her and enjoy our friendship, I don't force it down her throat, and she doesn't force her belief on me either. We find other things to talk about and we are always talking about God and how He provides. We're always like, God is so good -- look at how he provides for us! The other day she was saying, I can't believe how good God is to me because I am so unworthy!!
Pretty neat huh?
That's the main topic of our conversations -- thankfulness. I am glad for that. :)
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Hi Kat,
I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.
The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.
Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, I’m wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.
Rick my last response was directed to this post, and your very last comment in particular.
Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
When Christ said, "You are the light of the world," I don't believe He meant as in we are to be converting the whole world... but it seems that it is to any that has His Spirit/light indwelling they are a light to whatever little piece of the world they may live in.
Luke 11:33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light.
It is not a question of making people understand the truth, but if the Spirit is indwelling, Christ will shine His light through us... that is what I believe is meant by "let your light so shine before men."
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
I do not believe that this is reserved for the next age, but is how the chosen are to be living out the rest of their lives, being an example/witness of the whatever truth God has given us. We in no way perfect, and may not 'enlighten' a single person, but we still should be putting into practice what we are learning. But we should not live as the world does and just blend in with them, or hide this wonderful knowledge... and that doesn't necessarily mean even mentioning there is no hell/free will. By showing the fruit of the Spirit I believe that is letting our "light so shine."
Mat 5:15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
Php 2:14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,
v. 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
v. 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
I’ll try to rephrase it again out of love that you seem to think I lack
Certainly I have not, nor would I, make a judgment like that on you, sorry I came across as if I did.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.
Hi Dave,
I’m not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the
Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.
God bless.
As I've already said, I also believe the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this age.
IF we have any disagreement, it's in that "we" are lights in this world (assuming we are). Now. That's the 'few being saved now'. I agree with what Kat has been saying. If you agree with her, then you agree with me.
I'm done with that part of this thread. I'll comment on how it began before it changed if asked or led to.
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Hi Gina,
First, I would like to say, your very welcome, you’re a wonderful asset to the forum Gina. :)
I no longer desire to speak of these truths we learned from Ray to people who have not studied Rays papers, its not that I don’t want to but the response from most are similar to Rays emails, not the nice ones of course.
I can personally tell you that I have talked to a particular all believing God fearing Christendom church goers concerning the doctrine of hell and watch the spittle come out from their mouth as they retorted in rejection to hell being a false doctrine.
Afterward, they got up and walked away from me. Believe it or not, there are some people that just don’t want truth and a good example of that can be found in comments made by Rays detractors.
I do not pass judgement on them because I know its not in man or women to direct their own footsteps because we are not free from choice without cause.
To me its not about this couple’s attitude or lack of knowledge whom I was conversing with about the doctrine of hell but more about what is it God wants me to understand as well as how should I respond ?
I personally believe that everything we experience being both good and evil in this life is that God is teaching us something in that which is happening to us, there is something we are to learn from each experience.
To God, everything is about us, God is doing a strange work in us, as we see our house built on sand crashing down we see who and what we are and to me, I see changes being made in my understanding, I don’t think about things in the same old way, I’m no longer interested in being number 1 any longer.
I took a good look at myself and all I saw was a poor pathetic wretched man, a man of sin. What is God going to do for me? I certainly cannot do anything on my own.
Paul says to run the race and rightfully so we should but I also understand the race was decided before God created the earth who would be the elect, the ones who cross the finish line according to His counsel.
God bless you Gina. :)
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If you disagree that he has come to seek and to save those that are perishing, then you're arguing with Scripture.
Hi Dave,
I’m not arguing with scripture just arguing how its being portrayed, although Christ did come to seek and save that which is lost Ray is quite clear that the
Perhaps its just a misunderstanding between we two but that is my understanding concerning that scripture you mentioned. Unless Ray is incorrect about Christ not saving everyone in this age but I believe what Ray has taught.
God bless.
As I've already said, I also believe the whole world is not being saved in this age, only the few are being saved in this age.
IF we have any disagreement, it's in that "we" are lights in this world (assuming we are). Now. That's the 'few being saved now'. I agree with what Kat has been saying. If you agree with her, then you agree with me.
I'm done with that part of this thread. I'll comment on how it began before it changed if asked or led to.
Hi Dave,
Its apparent, like I had stated, its just a misunderstanding between you and I. I misconstrued what you were communicating to me, My apologies Dave.
I do agree with Kat as you said so we are all in agreement.
God bless Dave.
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Hi Kat,
I agree with all you said, but you know as well as I do the light that shines in us is always proportional to the work Christ does in a believer, its not a question of hiding our light if God wills our light to shine, what ever light He gives us will shine in the darkness.
The light that shines from a believer will only attract those who the Father has given Christ which are his elect the few for the many hate the light and will most likely do what they can to extinguish the light if it were possible of course.
Not all scripture as you know is not going to be fulfilled in this age, I’m wondering if this scripture Mat 5:14 is for this aged or the next age, its still on my mind what age it fits in.
Father in heaven.
. By showing the fruit of the Spirit I believe that is letting our "light so shine."
Hi Kat,
I wish for the sake of everyone on this forum I were more articulate, I don’t always express myself as I should, as a result of my inability I cause confusion and sometimes contention.
I am in full agreement with your statement, that is how I believe too. I don’t try to shine a light I don’t have on my own, any light Christ gives me cannot be hid because that light becomes us and we are who we are in Christ , if Christ has given us His light it cannot doing anything but shine.
Whether people recognize that light is up to God who causes all to walk according to His counsel even if one believes their choices are free from cause they can no more direct their footsteps than we who have been enlighten can.
Most people in my life whom I have met are wonderful people but I believe they are wonderful because God has given them all the causes for them to be wonderful people, I don’t know if that is your understanding but its mine as we speak.
I believe God controls everything even people too, I know there are people who think they control their own destiny, come and go as they please but these are also the same people who stand in the temple of God and proclaim to be god as we once did but no longer do because God has cause us to understand His truths.
Thank you Kat for your reply, God bless you too. :)