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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 04:18:43 PM

Title: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 04:18:43 PM: In the Sermon on the Mount ,Jesus said that we are to love those who hate us and pray for those who despitefully use us and bless those who curse us.

I’ll be the first to admit these words of Jesus are beautiful. They are profound words to me. I know in my heart Jesus is asking me to do the impossible. May God strike me dead if I ever believe in my heart I can do what Jesus is asking of me.

I believe Jesus spoke these words to His listeners knowing not one of them could obey. Jesus spoke these words to show us our need of a savior.

I believe Ray’s teaching point this out. If I were in so called Christendom I would believe I could control my own destiny, I would believe I can ask Jesus into my life anytime I desire to,

I would also believe I can forgive who I wish and love those who I will. I would also believe in hell too. I believe as I understand in the capacity God grants me to understand I’ am not a free agent, I realize everything I think, do or say is given to me by God.

After reading Ray’s papers, I don’t believe I have the capability to do good. If I do good it’s because it was given me from above to do good for all good things come from God.

If I do evil it’s because I ‘am evil. Sure God has created causes to cause me to do evil but He himself did not do evil I did evil because without God I cannot do anything but evil.

God created good and evil and God uses evil for good but I understand now God also holds back evil also. What I mean is this, God holds all things together, if God were to remove His Spirit not from the universe but from human beings what would happen?

Not one does good no not one, all have gone astray. Inclination of mans heart is evil from early youth up. These are things I read in the bible.

I don’t want to think about what would transpire if God removed His Spirit from the human race.

Ray’s teaching on free will verses will goes so deep I could spend a lifetime studying this one subject alone.

These things I understand are only the surface of how God’s will affects my will down to the smallest detail of every day life.

Would you share your understanding on this with me? Does knowing this change our life? When people do things that seem strange to me or bother me, I find myself saying that one is fulfilling God’s purpose. God is causing that one to do this or that.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: mharrell08 on October 14, 2008, 05:07:06 PM: Quote from: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 04:18:43 PM
Would you share your understanding on this with me? Does knowing this change our life? When people do things that seem strange to me or bother me, I find myself saying that one is fulfilling God’s purpose. God is causing that one to do this or that.

Hello Richard,

I am not exactly sure what you mean. I believe I know which scriptures and/or Ray's teachings you are referring to but how about copying and pasting an excerpt?

Also, I noticed you have made that statement again, "What if God removed His spirit from the human race?" All things exist THROUGH HIM [Eph 1:11] so you cannot 'remove' God from any equation. God IS spirit [John 4:24] and also the Father of spirits [Heb 12:9].

Personally, I would love to discuss the scriptures and more of Ray's teachings. But, and please take no offense, it's kind of hard to follow you because it seems you're kinda all over the place. :) I know it is from joy of hearing the gospel for the first time but we are still to maintain a 'pattern of sound words' [Titus 2:8; 2 Tim 1:13]

Thanks,

Marques
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 05:56:45 PM: Marques.

No offense taken Marques, what my meaning was by taking God out of the equation was simply there is nothing good about human beings in themselves. That was my point, it’s God who keep wickedness from running rampage.

Without God I believe we would all be pure evil without any good in us. This teaching of Ray’s concerning the fact we do not have free will goes very deep.

There is a part of me that says whatever people do it’s because God is sending causes that cause people to do the things they do, so knowing this I say when I see someone doing anything I say God is causing this one to do it. But as soon as I say that is God not causing me to say that or recognize He is behind it?

So knowing this, does anything change in one’s life except to know that everything is of God? Ray spoke about the King of Babylon thinking he has by his own power built a great city and by his own power conquered all who opposed him but this King was mistaken because it was God who had done these things.

Does this knowledge of our wills being subjected to Gods will change something about me? I will still fulfill God’s purpose whether I know this or not.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: David on October 14, 2008, 06:06:07 PM: Quote
In the Sermon on the Mount ,Jesus said that we are to love those who hate us and pray for those who despitefully use us and bless those who curse us.

I’ll be the first to admit these words of Jesus are beautiful. They are profound words to me. I know in my heart Jesus is asking me to do the impossible. May God strike me dead if I ever believe in my heart I can do what Jesus is asking of me.

Hi Richard

Not only do I believe we can do these commandments from our Lord, we better be praying that we are doing them if we are to have any hope in the first resurrection at all. Of course, we can only do these things with Gods Spirit and grace (Divine intervention on the heart).

As for us not having freewill, personally I've never had a problem understanding it or accepting it, even before I was a Christian.
As children we're totally reliant on our parents, subject and answerable to their house rules. We're subject to rules in school and college. We're subject and answerable to the laws of the land all our lives. We're subject to our employers. Subject to global political and economic forces we can do nothing about. Subject to Gods workings in terms of nature, climate, drought, famine etc.
Think about it, only the human state of mind is foolish and arrogant enough to believe that such tiny insignificant beings, in a minority compaired to most species on earth, occupying a spec of ground on this huge planet for a very brief amount of time, has a free will to do and choose as we see fit.
I understood this as a foolish agnostic, but never understood what our purpose was.
Now I know everything is of God, and what our purpose and the purpose of the creation is.
BTW, I agree with Marques. Take Gods spirit away and you have nothing, no human race, no earth, no universe.

Quote
what my meaning was by taking God out of the equation was simply there is nothing good about human beings in themselves. That was my point, it’s God who keep wickedness from running rampage.

Without God I believe we would all be pure evil without any good in us.

Richard, with respect my freind you need to re think this statement. There is nothing good about us at all, and wickedness has always run rampage, especially now days. We are pure evil without any good in us, and its all of God. Have a read of Romans 3.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: KristaD on October 14, 2008, 06:19:44 PM: Quote from: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 05:56:45 PM
there is nothing good about human beings in themselves. That was my point, it’s God who keep wickedness from running rampage.

Without God I believe we would all be pure evil without any good in us.
Without God we would not be anything. We would not exist, nothing would. I think that is what Marques is saying.

Quote from: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 05:56:45 PM

Does this knowledge of our wills being subjected to Gods will change something about me? I will still fulfill God’s purpose whether I know this or not.

Yes, it changes everything. You now know that everyone else is subject to His will, therefore it becomes easier to not judge people, including yourself. You also know that God is absolutely sovereign and that absolutely nothing is ever out of His control and His plan. You know your God now and that will change all kinds of things inside of you. Yes, you would've still fulfilled His purpose without knowing it if that had been His plan, but now that you do know it you know that knowing is part of His purpose for you.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 07:34:04 PM: David.

Thank you for responding. This is where Ray’s teachings are taking me, I notice you said you believe we can be doing these commandments of God and we better be doing them, I did notice you also said with God’s Spirit.

If I love God or if I obey God I might think to myself I ‘am doing these things and so I feel great about it. But the truth is I have absolutely nothing to do with it according to my understanding of Ray’s teaching on free will.

You could tell me about the first resurrection and about the second resurrection and ask me which one I choose and I would say David I choose the first resurrection but what I choose is irrelevant because it’s God who predestines us for one or the other. So I have nothing to do with it.

If I choose to obey Gods commandments it’s because God has cause me or inspired me or motivated me to obey and yet God does it through me so I have nothing to do with my obeying His commandments.

Ray’s teaching are taking me to this understanding, I’ am like a light bulb. I ‘am useless I can do nothing I can not light up the room, God is the electricity, when God moves in me I light up the room but its really God who lights up the room using me to accomplish this task.

Now this might sound like I’m a robot but I don’t feel like I’m a robot, this is how great God is because I feel like its me but its God pulling my invisible stings to do what His good pleasure is.

So there is no difference between the one in the first resurrection and the one in the second resurrection, the person in the first resurrection is no better than the person in the second resurrection except the first resurrection is the better of the two.

Why is there no difference in the two classes of people? All have sinned all have fallen short of the glory of God not one has done right.

God’s decision is what makes the difference. God will have mercy on who he will and will not. But either way nether group of people had anything to do with it. Otherwise one could boast.

This is my understanding from Ray’s teaching.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 07:49:31 PM: KristaD.

That was a great point you have made when you said it does make a difference because now we know God causes these things so it helps us to not be so judgmental towards people .

Then I thought about that answer for a few minutes but find myself coming back to this no free will and what it means to me. According to my understanding from Ray’s papers I do not make my own decisions. I think I’m making my decisions but am I? How can God control all things if everyone is making his or her own decision?

So if I’m not judgmental it’s because God is causing me not to be but if I’ am being judgmental it’s because God is causing me to be. Otherwise God could not be in complete control.

This is what I understand from Ray’s teachings. Do you also see it like this too.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: OBrenda on October 14, 2008, 09:36:33 PM: Hi Richard,

I enjoyed Krista's comments also, I think the differing is that Ray teaches that we do make our own choices 100's of them a day. (However those choices are not free. They are caused ~ because they are not free of consequence.) It takes a long time to sort this out. Your getting there!

So David is also right when we must be praying and doing them. Evidence of the called is the fiery desire to return back to him/to be like him. And we know it is not of ourselves the ability comes, but from our Creator!

We do not sit on the couch and say "What ever you want Lord it's up to you"

We jump out the door and search to find "What is your will for me to do"

And God puts that desire in us, so we can not boast! Be we can delight in our service to him... ;D

This is how we sharpen iron with iron. Asking and answering till we get to the "ah hah" moment.
If we just said o.k. with out responding back, we couldn't get at those cobwebs in the corner! ;)

Now...I hope I came close to grasping it correctly myself? ??? LOL

Your Sis,
Brenda
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: OBrenda on October 14, 2008, 09:48:56 PM: Oh I almost forgot.

Brenda is Judgemental against pink People.

God causes Brenda to turn pink, and then understands what it's like to be Pink.
Brenda now sees differently and chooses to like pink people. But God caused the humbling circumstanes for it to happen.
Because it was GOD'S Will for it to happen.
Not that Brenda was a homely child and He felt sorry for her. Or that she never said the "F-Word"

O.K. I think I'm finished now...heehee
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Kat on October 14, 2008, 10:12:48 PM: Hi Richard,

You are certainly on the right track. But I thought I would give you a little more to add to what you are saying.

Quote
If I choose to obey Gods commandments it’s because God has cause me or inspired me or motivated me to obey and yet God does it through me so I have nothing to do with my obeying His commandments.

You absolutely do have something to do with the choices you make. Everybody will be held accountable for their own actions, the Elect now and the rest later at the White Throne Judgment. The causes that we are given are just a means to bring about the experiences we need to learn right from wrong. God's sovereignty makes Him responsible, but we are accountable for the things we do. Here is a email that helps explain this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -------

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability? For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,
Ray
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 14, 2008, 10:39:39 PM: Quote from: Kat on October 14, 2008, 10:12:48 PM

Hi Richard,

You are certainly on the right track. But I thought I would give you a little more to add to what you are saying.

Quote
If I choose to obey Gods commandments it’s because God has cause me or inspired me or motivated me to obey and yet God does it through me so I have nothing to do with my obeying His commandments.

You absolutely do have something to do with the choices you make. Everybody will be held accountable for their own actions, the Elect now and the rest later at the White Throne Judgment. The causes that we are given are just a means to bring about the experiences we need to learn right from wrong. God's sovereignty makes Him responsible, but we are accountable for the things we do. Here is a email that helps explain this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -------

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability? For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,
Ray

Amen! And thats the truth!

God bless,

Alex
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: digitalwise on October 14, 2008, 11:04:49 PM: Dear David,

Quote
Not only do I believe we can do these commandments from our Lord, we better be praying that we are doing them if we are to have any hope in the first resurrection at all. Of course, we can only do these things with Gods Spirit and grace (Divine intervention on the heart).

I disagree.

The truth is we cannot OBEY and DO ALL these commandments.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guiltyof all.

We enter 1st resurrection based on GRACE EXTERNAL imputed not imparted.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him6 for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Imparted Grace aides us in our daily walk but we are far from perfected in this life even knowing the LAWS right now!

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

digitalwise
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 15, 2008, 12:54:53 AM: Breda……..Kat……..and everyone else also, I need to take time to go over what everyone has said. I know I might have more question on this but I need to digest the answers at this point.

This is wonderful information I have received and I’m thankful, I need to spend a day or two meditating on what’s been already given to me.

Thank you all very much.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: KristaD on October 15, 2008, 01:24:10 PM: Quote from: Richard D on October 14, 2008, 07:49:31 PM
KristaD.

That was a great point you have made when you said it does make a difference because now we know God causes these things so it helps us to not be so judgmental towards people .

Then I thought about that answer for a few minutes but find myself coming back to this no free will and what it means to me. According to my understanding from Ray’s papers I do not make my own decisions. I think I’m making my decisions but am I? How can God control all things if everyone is making his or her own decision?

So if I’m not judgmental it’s because God is causing me not to be but if I’ am being judgmental it’s because God is causing me to be. Otherwise God could not be in complete control.

This is what I understand from Ray’s teachings. Do you also see it like this too.

In His Love. Richard.
You make your own decisions. God controls all things because He created all things.
So if you are judgmental towards someone God has caused you to be judgmental because He MADE you like you are and gave you the things you've experienced in your life. He is not causing you to do anything that you are against doing, He simply made you so that you would be judgmental towards that person at that time for a purpose. He made you to where you would choose to make the choices you make and feel the way you feel and do the things that you do. He isn't controlling us like a puppet master like we don't do anything at all, He gave us intelligence and choices He just set up the circumstances and put the things in us to do what He wills for us to do. He has already made everything in a way that it will unfold exactly according to His plan because His plan is perfect and His knowledge is perfect. He does not have to make us do things, we do them according to His plan because that's what He created us to do. We still make the choices we make when we are in the situations so we are accountable but it is never free from His preordained will.
I hope that helps, forgive me I haven't read all of the responses.... babies to tend to ;).
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Longhorn on October 15, 2008, 04:15:33 PM: Im glad God caused me to like Mexican food. :)

Love in Christ

Longhorn
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Robin on October 15, 2008, 04:15:46 PM: Here are the verses that mean a lot to me concerning obeying the commandments.

Galatians 3:
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Matthew 22
34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13:
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

2 John 1:
5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 2:
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Philippians 3
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Ezekiel 36:
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

2 Corinthians 3:
2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: walt123 on October 15, 2008, 06:18:20 PM: hello richard
hope you find your answer,but i want to thank brenda and kat for anwsering my question when i first join the forum.
it was the exact answer i was looking for about the "free will" and even when ray explain it ,i seem to have mist it .
again i hope your question is anwsered richard.
walt
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: David on October 15, 2008, 09:56:49 PM: Quote from: digitalwise on October 14, 2008, 11:04:49 PM
Dear David,

Quote
Not only do I believe we can do these commandments from our Lord, we better be praying that we are doing them if we are to have any hope in the first resurrection at all. Of course, we can only do these things with Gods Spirit and grace (Divine intervention on the heart).

I disagree.

The truth is we cannot OBEY and DO ALL these commandments.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

We enter 1st resurrection based on GRACE EXTERNAL imputed not imparted.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him6 for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Imparted Grace aides us in our daily walk but we are far from perfected in this life even knowing the LAWS right now!

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

digitalwise

I wasn't speaking of the commandments in regard to the Law of Moses, the law. I was speaking of the commandments in Matthew 5,6,7 and the rest of the NT, the commandments given by Christ.

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:9“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Thes 4:2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

1 John 3:22 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

2 John V 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Digitalwise, dear brother. I'm seeing a lot of commandments here from Christ that we're being told to both obey and do.

Jesus Christ Himself obeyed and did what His Father commanded him to do. John 10:18, John 12:49, John 12:50, John 14:31.

Very often in the NT commandments ate to be both obeyed and done. In most of these scriptures the doing is the obeying.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: winner08 on October 15, 2008, 10:18:23 PM: Richard D: Marques says something about you being all over the place. I for one totally understands why. I too get excited about Ray's teachings and when I come to an understanding, something I did not understand before, I get all excited and I want to share that knowledge and excitement with others. But I don't think I do a good job because I am all over the place with whatever I am trying to share. I remember someone here told be when conveying with others keep it short as possible and try to stay on one point at a time. I know when I am reading replays I get anxious if it is long. I also get lost on point. KISS we all heard of that. Keep it short and simple.

Take no offence to my advice it is only my opinion.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 15, 2008, 10:44:47 PM: Winner 08

I’m not offended, I have learned so much in these pass few days it’s incredible. Brothers say, do this and sisters say do that. But I say Christ has freed us from bondage, we are one body but many parts. Can the whole body be just a foot? How will it see where it’s going?

Be who you are in Christ Jesus, when a brother says do this, then for that brother, its right for him but may not be right for you. Don’t let yourself be put under law. Christ die for you and set you free. Stay free my brother in Christ Jesus.

In His Freedom. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: digitalwise on October 16, 2008, 05:15:18 AM: Dear David,

If we have DEFICIT - yes it is true of all commandments, we have a deficit nature by virtue of the beast within but Christ has not paid just the penality but is also our PRESENT AVOCATE if we sin!

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The aforementioned is NOT imparted GRACE but IMPUTED grace. The deficit is our walking with God and failing. That is our ongoing sin. No man can obey fully all the commandments in perfect walking but the call in the commandments is to be PERFECTED in the true love of God. Our deficit is covered by grace not by nature as an excuse to sin but to LOVED by God. Rather the removed penality of sin pays forward the deficit when we believe and begin our walk in obedience to those commandments as consequence of grace. This is based on the advocate power of Christ is not a walk of perfection of the flesh [lower nature / beast nature].

Pure love undefiled decends from Heaven and is not from earthly or the carnal based understanding of payment or down payments. Avoidance of the importance of imputed grace as compared to imparted grace sees the meaning and removal of penality by the act of Christ diluted. Anything that is not of faith is sin. The power of sin is the law etc etc.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation is a kind imputation or putting forth by sheding and splinkling onto the sinful defiled object. It is the same typology meaning when the Preist under the Old Covenant entered the Holy Place and sprinkled blood on the mercy seat in enactment to the atonement when OT Israel national sins were forgiven. By this work and power of Christ we are made perfect in our walk, not by will or desire to be but rather to walk and believe that I am wholly worthy by the merited and GRACED favour of God through His calling on my life.

Now I am of course in favour in obeying ALL words of Christ and His commandments - but the beast is a stubborn old man. To make it to the first resurrection is a case of God choosing us and is not the will of man (free will) but rather His own choosing and calling. [I [God] will harden whom I CHOOSE to HARDEN]

The above verse 1 John 2:2 is just about the most important verse in the bible and the sin is ours and is therefore a present tense. You will note an astounding truth which this forum stands by based on Ray's writings - it would be thus: sins of the whole world.

This astounding verse places the unrighteous lot of mankind under the propitiation act of Christ! Mankind's own deficit of perfection - therefore the sin/s are judged already.

digitalwise
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: aqrinc on October 16, 2008, 05:25:38 AM: digitalwise,

Thank you for that explanation, it is a lot you say there and so Real.

In Christ Jesus.

George.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 16, 2008, 09:34:45 AM: Digitalwise.

What you wrote was a blessing to me as it reminded me I’m not going to be perfected in the flesh. The flesh profits nothing. Its amazing how deceitful the heart of man is. I’ am what I’ am by the grace of God. I think the important thing for me to do is realize this.

I’m hoping God will keep me walking in his ways and I continue to increase in knowledge and understanding.

None the less its according to the predetermine purpose of God and not me. I know I’m accountable for my sins but I’m accountable as an imperfect human being. If I were perfect in myself then the work of Christ for me would be void.

At the end of the day I always remember the creature was subjected in hope and God is no respecter of persons. I will work out according to the predetermine purpose of God just as he determined and there is nothing I can do to alter what God has declared.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Robin on October 16, 2008, 04:53:33 PM: http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

WHEN GRACE IS A VERB

Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?

We learned that "... when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).

Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811

WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!

"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!

"Grace" is not a stagnant feel-good noun -- it is also a verb -- that is, it does something; it accomplishes something; it produces something of great value in the believer.

"Teaching" accomplishes something essential in making man into God’s very image.

The next verse tells us what it "teaches" us: "denying ungodliness and worldly lusts ... living soberly, righteously, and godly!" Just the words "living godly" will cover every single thing that God EVER ASKS OF US -- EVERYTHING. "Living GODLY" covers every possible act of faith, love, and obedience that anyone could ever conceive of.

When God uses the SAME WORD to describe something that He wishes to accomplish, it behooves us to study deeply what that word means, especially when that word has to do with the very destiny of all peoples who have ever lived.

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God's "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

Gracing us by means of chastening, TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation. Judging us by means of chastening, also TEACHES US TO LIVE GODLY and brings salvation!

It is high time we dispense with the hypocrisy.

When God JUDGES US THROUGH CHASTENING (I Cor. 11:32) it is for our good and for our benefit and for our salvation. Why then do we think that God changes character when He likewise judges the wicked, unjust, and non-believers at the great white throne? Why? God changes NOT! God is NOT a respecter of persons. You read all of these Scriptures. Do we think the Scriptures LIE?

If you are not rejoicing over these profound and marvelous revelations, then you must be spiritually asleep. I have just shown you one of the most remarkable truths in the entirety of the Bible! You would do well to not read any further until you thoroughly grasp what has been presented here.

And again I ask, "What does this have to do with the lake of fire?" EVERYTHING! I am not going to go into detail on this aspect of judging yet, but suffice it to be said here that the "judging" (Greek: krino in I Cor. 11:32 by chastening that brings godly living and salvation is also the very same "judging" (Greek: krino) used in Revelation 20:12 with reference to the lake of fire.

Seriously, do many believe that these God-inspired Greek words have one meaning when applied to God judging and gracing believers now, but then have a totally different meaning when applied to as yet non-believers in the day of judging? Do you? Well, regrettably, many do think that God is fickle, inconsistent, and a respecter of persons. Can you for once in your life begin to use your God-given mind to think for yourself?

This is an absolutely marvelous teaching. God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:

"Teaching us..." King James

"Instructing us..." American Standard Version

"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)

"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)

"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)

Now it is true that the Greek word paideuo #3811 can also mean "punishment." But punishment is not the main force of this word. Notice that none of the above translations (nor any that I know of) translate this word, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, PUNISHING us that denying ungodliness ..." No, the force of this word is to DISCIPLINE, TRAIN, INSTRUCT, SCHOOL AND TEACH. Let’s at least have the sensibility of a ten year-old. Of what value is "disciplining, training, instructing, schooling, and teaching" if it goes on forever and ever and ever, and while being burned with fire, for ALL ETERNITY? Gee, do we think they will EVER "learn their lesson?" I, of course, speak as a fool.

All of these aspects of paideuo are with a view to amendment, correction, and setting right, not merely punishment for punishment’s sake. A father chastens his children with a view to amendment and correction, not for the sole sake of CAUSING PAIN! Why do we think carnal-minded human fathers are a billion times more noble and merciful in the disciplining of their children than God is in the disciplining (chastening -- judging -- gracing) of HIS children?

There is a need for much repenting in the teaching of this vile doctrine of eternal torment. This doctrine of eternal torture blasphemes the name of our Loving Father. It is heresy on a level with hypobole -- inordinate -- TOO MUCH! It is a damnable teaching. And it is among the filthy trash of wood, straw and stubble that will be purged out and burned out in God’s Lake of Fire from every person who teaches and delights in this most disgusting of all disgraceful theologies of depraved men and women.

Oh yes, there are things that are going to be burned out of existence in God’s "lake of fire," and this deplorable doctrine of eternal torment will be the first to be abolished and death will be the last to be abolished--and so, let it burn ... LET IT BURN!

Remember that Jesus Christ does not change and that He does not respect (have partiality) with regards to persons. With those two thoughts in mind, what is accomplished by the "chastening" of the Lord? He "graces" us by chastening and He "judges" us by chastening. What does it always accomplish? Answer:

"For the grace of God [that chastens us] ... BRINGS SALVATION" (Titus 2:11)!!

And all of this is of God. God judges, God graces, God chastens, and God brings SALVATION!

Perhaps you have a shortcut-formula which bypasses all these hundreds of Scriptures I am presenting and makes them all void and of no effect? I have heard of such short-cut formulas, but God’s Word knows nothing of them!

Notice:

"Being CONFIDENT of this very thing, that He [that’s Christ] which hath begun a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6).

And when Christ's

"... JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [the whole world] WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).

As far as Christian theory goes, this Scripture in Isaiah might just a well be a lie, for they say it will never happen. They teach that the whole world will never ever learn righteousness and receive salvation. That’s because they neither believe the gospel nor teach it. And so rather than bring the gospel of universal salvation, they threaten the world with universal damnation in the fires of eternal hell if they don’t follow their short-cut-formulas to material wealth and spiritual salvation. And thus the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations (Rom. 2:24) to this very day.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: David on October 16, 2008, 05:58:57 PM: 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

barus
bar-ooce'
From the same as G922; weighty, that is, (figuratively) burdensome, grave: - grievous, heavy, weightier.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: digitalwise on October 16, 2008, 11:08:05 PM: Dear Brothers,

I can see you would have thought that my reasoning is to discount chastening of the Lord as a means of grace.

My dear brothers of faith the older we get the more we realise that even commandments of the New Covenant spoken by the Lord Jesus are not easy. We not perfect. Phil 3:13. All chastening proves on us is that we NEED grace ever more and we truly SONS of God. Heb 12:7

Grace is mediated by God himself on his beloved children. And the chastening is part of the transaction. We all agree and could we ever say less.

However, if you my brothers you were caught in some snare of sin, does that make you less then the other who still believes and does not sin? You see it is not by merit or works least any man should boast. Eph 2:9 Even your chastening by grace to keep you in the palm of HIS hand is NOT your doing but God's will to save you not only in this life but in the life to come.

Remember my brothers we are not without sin. 1 John 1:8 For if we say we have no sin and cannot fall ocassionally we think ourselves sufficient in our own selves of these things. The doctrine of which one holds to must not become like the pharisee when they spent endless amounts of time dissecting scripture and became self righteous by laws. Remember my brothers if you stood with pharisee in the stoning attempt of the woman caught in adultery, would you cast a stone? The steps of a good man are ORDERED by the Lord, though he fall he shall not be cast down for the Lord upholds with his hand. Psalms 37:23

Are you a good man? Do you fall ocassionally? Do you do ALL the commandments of Jesus perfectly? Are you free from all chastisement?

Finally do the teachings of Ray ring an accord with me? Of course! They ALL do! Shall we sin so that grace might abound? Of course not! Romans 6:1

He who thinks he can stand take heed least he fall. 1 Cor 10:12 It is then you will need your advocate just like I do when I fall. For if your will to do perfectly is based soley on commandments alone then you are under law and you do need grace. We must all be captive to the greater - apprehended by Christ in your own calling, not by just teaching alone. Phil 3:13

I write unto children, young man and fathers. 1John 2:14 If you wish to be fathers in maturity then a father better understands why chastening is not just a teaching. We learn it is not by works - or by the law or by perfection or by sin eradication - but by grace. The paradox remains that we are sons of God despite our weaknesses and our sin. That is majesty and deep of the grace in Christ.

Blessings,

digitalwise

Blessings to all,

digitalwise
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: tinknocker on October 17, 2008, 01:44:38 AM: Amen to that
Quote from: Longhorn on October 15, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
Im glad God caused me to like Mexican food. :)

Love in Christ

Longhorn
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Robin on October 17, 2008, 05:14:01 AM: digitalwise

I had to run out the door after posting so I only had time to post Ray's teaching. It was not meant as a disagreement with your post, but rather to add to your post. The reason I thought it was important is because of the church teaching that we are saved (past tense) by grace. This teaching kept me asleep in the church for years. Christ died for me. My sins were covered by grace. I was saved and it was a done deal. If it hadn't been for all the new testament verses on obeying the commandments I would have stayed asleep. YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.1 Peter 1:15 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 These verses woke me up and showed me that I am the beast and I need a savior. If you are guilty of breaking one of the commandments you are guilty of all. I stood before God guilty and knew I was not saved and could not save myself. I feel it is important to point out that we are being saved by grace as Ray points out in his teaching above.

Romans 13:
9For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.

2 Peter 1
Making One's Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

"For the grace of God [that chastens us] ... BRINGS SALVATION" (Titus 2:11)!!

2 Corinthians 3:4-6
4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God.

5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: legoman on October 17, 2008, 02:16:35 PM: Thank you Richard for raising these questions and also for those who replied - it really helps.

I too find I have questions and don't completely understand the free will stuff, but then someone points out part of Ray's material which answers my question exactly. And its all in the scriptures.

The free will/predestination stuff is very difficult to grasp. It is so vast and amazing - just think of it, God planned that we would be discussing this topic right now and you would be reading this post at this very moment!

God even invented the internet! I don't know why that amazes me, I mean he did create the earth and the universe too. I guess its because I work in the telecom industry and I know how dang complicated it is to get computers/networks/etc to function.

And he made me like mexican food too :)

Kevin
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: aqrinc on October 17, 2008, 04:02:53 PM: M.G.,

Remember (we are saved by Grace, Through Faith) it is a gift of God not works; lest any should boast.

Here is Ray's teaching on this subject.

This is Deep: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html

George.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Robin on October 17, 2008, 04:41:41 PM: Thank you George.

I can't see anywhere in my posts where I indicate that we are being saved by works, but I am probably communicating poorly again.

I'll just say that God caused me to like Mexican food too, lol.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 17, 2008, 11:42:10 PM: Below is and excerpt from ray’s e-mail.

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

I absolutely make my own choices, any decisions I decide and follow through with are of me but caused by God. So the only choice I can make is the choice God cause me to make. My view of this is that I decide what God told me to decide. I cannot make a decision outside of God’s purpose.

So if I want to go to a restaurant but God wants me to go to a museum to bring his truths to a person at the museum, then my decision will be the museum, So I made the only choice possible for me but I’m held accountable also.

It must be like this I think or God’s purpose cannot be fulfilled.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Beloved on October 18, 2008, 12:30:09 AM: I absolutely make my own choices, any decisions I decide and follow through with are of me but caused by God. So the only choice I can make is the choice God cause me to make. My view of this is that I decide what God told me to decide. I cannot make a decision outside of God’s purpose.

I am not sure to really got this Richard your explanation seems to indicate that if you saw a 50 dollar bill on the street and picked it up that God caused you to do it. The way you are using the word cause is confusing.

Paul warned the saints of his time about going down this path.

God presents you with the circumstances, what he is causing .....is you to go through the circumstance. It is your carnal nature that reacts...it is only God working in you that "helps" you overcome the carnal and make the correct or righteous choice.....

Are you watching pornography right now, swearing up a blue streak, getting drunk now....if Christ in is you , you have overcome some of these...one of the oher posts dicussed idols of the heart....Jesus has to work these out of you . It take time and tribulation...so right now pride, self righteousness and envy or some other idol may still need to be knocked down.

That 50.00 will incite greed and covetous, that is built into all of us sinning machines....Yes that is 'the way we were made', God has taken resposiblity and has given us His son as Saviour and Redeemer, but our works still stand...the bad ones will need to be burned out...but the Will and purpose of God is to show us ......that everything that will happen will ulitmatlely Glorify God because He has this glorious plan for us.

Isa 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

beloved
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 18, 2008, 12:58:47 AM: Beloved.

Thank you so much for you’re explanation. I was somehow missing the mark on this but your explanation has put it together for me. I’m sure others were telling me this but I did not fully understand.

So, God causes circumstances in my life and causes me to make a decision concerning these circumstances and with Christ in me I learn how to overcome the wrong within me and learn to do what is right in God’s sight by teaching me through this experience of good and evil.

So, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me but this is a lifetime process through trials which come by circumstances which God causes and then aids me in overcoming.

Beloved, is this thinking rightly in the truth? If so, then I understand, if not, then back to the drawing board for me.

Thank you beloved. In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: aqrinc on October 18, 2008, 01:17:52 AM: M.G.,

Sorry it came out like that; my point is: (Saved by Grace Through Faith) the rest was completion of the verse.
Please accept my most profound apology; no intention on my part to say you even mentioned works by us. :-[
In future i will guard my words more carefully.

I love Mexican Food too, just had 5 fabulous Tacos made by my Wife for dinner. :P but i am at least 1/4 Hispanic.

In Truth and Love Brother, George.

Quote from: M.G. on October 17, 2008, 04:41:41 PM
Thank you George.

I can't see anywhere in my posts where I indicate that we are being saved by works, but I am probably communicating poorly again.

I'll just say that God caused me to like Mexican food too, lol.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Beloved on October 18, 2008, 02:00:30 AM: Yes Richard you are closer now

beloved
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: digitalwise on October 18, 2008, 04:28:45 AM: Quote from: M.G. on October 17, 2008, 04:41:41 PM
Thank you George.

I can't see anywhere in my posts where I indicate that we are being saved by works, but I am probably communicating poorly again.

You did not. And we agree on all facets of grace. It's okay to declare the other side of grace.

When we take teachings as an orthodoxy* kind of approach to our faith, we do "fall asleep" as you say. Some die very young ignoring their sins.

I would like to say to myself and also to others - very careful how when you are given so much light you do become arrogant or puffed up with just knowledge.

Quote
I have sometimes walked a mile or two, almost limping along because there was a stone in my shoe, and I did not stop to look for it. And many a Christian goes limping for years because of the stones in his shoe, but if he would only stop to look for them, he would be relieved. What is the sin that is causing you pain? Get it out, and take away the sin, for if you do not, you have not regarded this admonition which speaketh unto you as unto sons — “My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord.” Spurgeon From a sermon entitled "Chastisement," delivered October 28, 1855.

God never calls us to complacency concerning our sins. The above virtually sums up how we should treat sin on our life long journey toward the Kingdom.

My background comes from legalism in the church. I have fought a long hard fight in mainline churches against legalism.

One aspect of legalism is the methodology of punishment for the non-believer = hell / falsehoods. Whilst it is true - "no man comes to the Father except by me [Jesus], it is interesting to note that the great white throne of judgement determines mankinds destiny in the end of all things. Here the scene is an allegorical court room scene of finality. Jesus still remains the doorway and abatrator of salvation in its final outworking. Here we see the drama of salvation sorted out and it still will be grace that determines the outcome on each individual.

On that day we'll say with Psalmist: Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Kind Regards,

Digitalwise

orthodoxy - prevailing attitude of belief as in religious / theology.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 18, 2008, 01:24:33 PM: Beloved.

This is and excerpt from Ray’s work (the lake of fire) part 1 below.

And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices

Something’s that Ray teaches comes to me with such ease. As I start to think I understand Ray’s meaning concerning our will being subjected to God’s will I find myself regressing each time.

I understand that God governs everything in my life and that I play right into the hands of God with every choice I make but I cannot for the life of me pin point how this is being played out in me.

Let’s say I’m on a speeding boat ¼ of a mile from land and God causes me to fall of the speeding boat but no one on the boat knows I fell off. So I make the only possible choice which is to swim towards land.

Now if I drown God is responsible but I’m held accountable because I was not strong enough to make it to land.

So with God I can make it to land because he strengthens me, thus teaching me how to swim.

Maybe that’s it in a nut shell.

In His Love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 19, 2008, 10:16:02 AM: I don’t believe salvation depends on understanding this will of ours and God’s sovereignty over our will although I could be wrong. I know God’s purpose is worked out through our will.

Good works is another one, if we do good works on our own it does not count but if God does good works through us it does counts.

Maybe I’m placing too much emphasis on these things. :-\

In God’s love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: mharrell08 on October 19, 2008, 10:44:09 AM: John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me [Jesus] ye can do nothing.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No one can do 'good works' on their own and/or without God. God ordains the good works that we do. As He also "works all things after the counsel of His own will" [Eph. 1:11].

This is one of the many misunderstandings that the church teaches. There is nothing done outside of the counsel of God. All is of God.

Marques
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 19, 2008, 01:45:08 PM: Thanks Marques.

Your right about Christendom teaching us these misunderstandings, I have both Gods truths in me as well as many misunderstandings taught me by the church.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Kat on October 19, 2008, 06:15:00 PM: Hi Richard,

Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.

Understanding that God is all powerful and all knowing, indeed He is sovereign and is in controll of all things, is difficult. God has a plan to bring all of His created children into His image.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

But notice "for whom are all things and by whom are all things," God is ultimately in control of everything, because all things exist by Him. So God is actually the source of all things and that includes us and everything about us, even the number of hairs we have (Mat 10:30). Now add that God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isa. 46:10), so how can we do something that He does not know we will do.

Act 17:28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.'

He brings about all the circumstances, but lets us choose, so that we can have this experience of life and learning good and evil. We actually think, say things and do what 'we' want to, because God gave us that ability as part of this experience in life. Now He also is making us accountable, because it was our own thoughts, words and actions, not of free will, but still our desire/will to think, say and do, so that we might learn through cause and effect. The ultimate cause and effect, if you sin you die.

So He has this great plan that He is carrying out and we a vital part of His plan. We are at a point in His plan where very few have been given knowledge of it. I hope that maybe something I said will help your understanding.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 20, 2008, 12:08:41 AM: Kat.

Thank you for your explanation Kat and also everyone else’s too. After reading Ray’s free will series I kept thinking that what ever I do is because God is causing me to do it whether right or wrong.

I understand now that God sends causes or triggers to the beast in us that brings temptations that the beast in us is attracted to and then we decide whether we will follow the desire of the beast or our desire for God.

God does not tempt us but we are like this by nature and do not take much for one to sin because we are sinning machines.

So if I choose to do wrong I’ am accountable for my decision because I have power of choice but God is responsible because he subjected the creature to vanity and in doing so God also paid the death penalty giving God the right to resurrect everyone from the grave otherwise we would stay dead in our sins.

I finally understand rightly now and would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread.

In God’s love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Robin on October 20, 2008, 06:13:59 AM: We don't have the power of free choice Richard. Our choices still have a cause.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm

FREE WILL

You mentioned "free will" in your sermon. People would rather have their arms and legs cut off and be thrown into a pit of snakes than to give up their "free will." Well guess what? They don't have to give it up. They never had such a thing in the first place! Even God Almighty is governed by the law of His own nature.

"The One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11).

But the buck stops at God's throne. He has not given us the same powers He possesses; that's for sure. But man, puny man, thinks he has "human free will" that is never caused or made to think or do anything. Man thinks himself sovereign in this assumed free will.

The Scriptures know nothing of "human free will." This is just another case of human ignorance. Men do not possess free will, because free will does not exist. The reason that "free will" (the ability to make uncaused choices) does not exist is because it is a physiological impossibility!

The first edict of the universe is "cause & effect."

Nothing in heaven or earth can happen without a cause. For every effect there is a cause. There are no exceptions. No effect or happening of any kind in the universe, on earth, in our bodies, or in our minds can come into existence without a cause. And if something is caused, it cannot be free. That would be a total contradiction of words and logic. Humans do have wills. But wills are not free from causality.

" ... for it is GOD Who is operating in you TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:13).

This involves countless unperceived forces.

Don't confuse "will" with "choice." Someone might say: "If our choices, are caused, then how can one call it a 'choice'-isn't that a contradiction?" Not at all. Free will demands that when someone makes a "free will" choice, no thing or no one made or forced him to do so. It was completely up to him-one way or the other. People simple confuse the meaning and definition of words. The word "choice" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the choice could have been avoided. A choice is merely what we prefer. Nowhere does the word "choice" carry with it the notion of "avoidability."

When one makes a choice, one selects what one prefers most at that instant. Nevertheless, something still caused that choice, whether one sees or feels its presence or not. One can argue that one made a free choice because one desired to do so. It still doesn't matter-the desire caused the choice, and the desire, itself, was caused. There are no exceptions. One may suggest that one did or said something without a cause simply because one willed to do so. Fine. But then even you are admitting that the choice had a cause, namely your will. One's wills and desires are not free from the laws of God or the laws of physics. These demand a cause for every effect. Man is not a deity. Man's will is not independent from his Creator (Phil. 2:13).
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 20, 2008, 09:44:34 AM: M.G.

I know that every choice I make has a cause behind it but the cause itself doe not make me do the wrong thing or the right thing but it forces me to make a decision but I choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing but the cause is forcing me to make a choice.

So I understand now that my choice is not free in itself or without a cause but I have the freedom to choose rightly or wrongly regardless of the cause that is causing me to choose This is why I’m held accountable but not responsible.

So God could send me causes to help a fellow human being but it’s my choice whether I give help or not. God does not force me to give help but God forces me to make a decision as to whether I will help or not.

So we do not have choice outside of something giving causes or our choosing is not free of causes but our decision is not force upon us only the cause is force upon us.

So people can only make choices according to the information they have rather making choices without cause or effect of causes. So the cause is what motivates me to make a choice to do or not to do.

In God's love. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Kat on October 20, 2008, 12:35:02 PM: Hi Richard,

Well I think what your saying now sounds like 'limited free will.' Ray has a answer for that too. This is kind of long, but I think it has a really good explanation along these lines.

http://bible-truths.com/part4.htm ---------------

Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will?

Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7500.0 -----

[Ray Replies]

First I need to clarify our use of words again. The word "free" as it is used in "free will" can ONLY mean that a person can think thoughts, make choices, and perform activities completely on his own with nothing CAUSING him to think, choose, or perform. That's as clear as I can state it. If something, ANYTHING, causes (or let's get stronger--MAKES) a person think a thought or make a choice or perform an action, then he did not do it FREELY. Don't get me wrong; he may have done it voluntarily, but not FREELY.

Our minds have the power and capability to "choose". A choice is merely "what we prefer." Our brains CAN analyze data, weight pros and cons, and MAKE choices. He can, however, do NONE OF THESE FREELY--that is "without a CAUSE." Let me use a softer expression and maybe it will become clearer. Do you now agree that we are "influenced" to think things, say things, and do things? OF COURSE WE ARE! Now then, if something influences you to actually DO something, then that influence WAS THE CAUSE. And whatever caused you to do something MADE you do it. And once something is MADE to do something, it is impossible to ever have been avoided!

I realize that this goes a little beyond psychology and theology 101, but it is not impossible to apprehend. It does take consider time meditating on these things before one becomes COMPLETELY convinced in his own heart and mind that the statements that "ALL is of God" and "God Who operates ALL according to the counsel of own will", are always true under all and every circumstance. Now to your comments:

You suggest that surely God gives us SOME will and SOME choices. Matthew, He gives us THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of choices according to our own wills. It's just that NONE of them are exercised WITHOUT INFLUENCE (or a cause that makes us do as we do). Try some experimenting if you will. Sit still and try to come up with a thought, choice or action that has zero influence.You might think that something even just "pooped into your mind" and that NOTHING caused it. Sure it did. Something did. There are no effects in the physical or mental universe that have no causes.

You use the word "forcing" our foot steps. God never uses that word. But He does use words such as "directs" or "guides". It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.

Of course none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":

"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps!

You question God "FORCING people to do evil." God doesn't have to FORCE people to do evil, we do it NATURALLY. It is our NATURE to do evil and commit sins. As I have said: "We are SINNING MACHINES"! God does not FORCE a man to rob a bank. He robs the bank because he is either in a financial bind or is lazy or is lusting for the easy life. Either way, he VOLUNTEERS to rob the bank. Now. . .what INFLUENCES him to rob the bank. Well, we just listed a few reasons. But what specifically at each step of the process causes him to carry out his deed? Thousands of things. Did he bring about the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of things that influenced (CAUSED) him to follow this path? NO! ABSOLUTE NOT. Where then DID all of it come from? Ultimately we must conclude that it came from GOD! GOD is the Creator. Why even the rotation of earth on its axis CAUSES men to sin!Yes it does. Many people wait until sunset to going about an evening of SINNING--loving the DARKNESS because their deeds are evil.

It's a nice thought that men would come to Jesus and come to God and opening love and adore them. But it's a fantasy. Do we have Scriptural proof of this? HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VERSES:

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh [the carnal mind] is ENMITY to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for NEITHER IS IT ABLE" (Rom. 8:6-8).

"Not ONE is just--not even one. Not one is understanding. Not ONE is seeking out God. All AVOID Him... Not one is doing kindness: THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE!" (Rom. 3:11-12).

No, God doesn't need to 'FORCE' people to do evil, neither CAN THEY do good! In fact, Jesus plainly said that:

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing [Greek: DRAGGING] him" (John 6:44).

Oh yes, we DO have a will, but our will does not NATURALLY do the will of God.

You say that "warnings and guidance" are useless if we have no will." But we DO have a will. It's just not "free" from causes, that's all. Matthew, surely if our wills were "FREE," someone, at sometime in the history of billions and billions of humans would have chosen ON HIS OWN, by his FREE WILL to DO GOOD. Don't you think? But what saith the Scriptures? No such thing!

You state: "If God determines our footsteps. . .we have no will." Yes we do. And God even CAUSES our wills to come in line with His. Don't you ever pray: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"? "Not MY will, but THEY will be done"? If our wills are FREE FROM BEING FORCED OR CAUSED OR MADE to do anything, we couldn't even pray these words. That WHY we work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. Because we, of ourselves, CAN DO NOTHING, as Jesus plainly told us. It is a fearful thing to realize that we can do NOTHING on our own. We only THINK that we can. And if that is what we think then we are fools!

"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN. That's why God uses words:

"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).

No, God is not playing chess with himself. God IS REPRODUCING HIMSELF! God's purpose for creation is far more than a game of chess. On God's chess board EVERYONE is a king and NO ONE gets "check-mated"! We are ALL WINNERS. We will ALL be the SONS OF GOD IN THE FAMILY OF GOD and Paul tells us that after death is abolished God will be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).

How can God hold our face in the fire and at the same time hold US guilty for getting burned, you ask? Well, of course, He doesn't hold our face in the fire, but I know what you mean. I will let God answer your question to the point and very succinctly. The ancient king of Assyria was just as proud of his "free will" as most of humanity is today. Notice how God handled him:

"Woe, Assyria! Club of My anger! And a rod! He, in their hand, IS MY MENACE! Among a nation polluted will I SEND HIM. And against a people, object of MY RAGE, will I INSTRUCT HIM. To loot loot and to plunder plunder, And to place them for tramping, as the clay of the streets. YET HE, NOT SO is HE planning. And HIS heart, NOT SO is devising. For to exterminate is in HIS HEART, And to cut off nations not a few" (Isa. 10:5-7).

Are you getting the picture? Continuing:

"I will visit evil on the fruit of the INSOLENT HEART OF THE KING OF ASSYRIA, And the high beauty of his eyes. [Why? Why would God do such a thing? Here's why] For, SAYS HE, 'By the vigor of MY HAND I DID IT, And by MY WISDOM, for understanding have I" (Vers. 12-13).

Next notice what God has to say concerning this king of Assyria's sell-appointed proud "free will" heart:

"Will the ax [the Assyrian king] beautify itself over the one [God] hewing with it? Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one [God] waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if the rod is raising one who is not wood!" (Isa. 10:15).

Yes, Matthew, God clearly shows us how He "operating all according to the counsel of His own will"! God said that He used the Assyrian king to judge other sinful nations just as surely as if the King were an ax in God's own hand! But the beauty of the whole thing is; the king of Assyria didn't think so. He never dreamed that he was but an ax in the HAND OF GOD his Creator! Amazing! The king took credit for all his exploits and great wisdom of warfare. In reality it was ALL OF GOD. And so one day this king was be embarrassed to tears for his great swelling egotistical boasting. God will chastise him and punish him NOT because he could have done otherwise by some supposed free will, but because (1) in this kings heart he THOUGHT he was accomplishing all these things, and (2) because he ACTUALLY DID DO THESE EVIL THINGS. God us JUSTIFIED. Oh yes He is! This king will be a GREAT SON OF GOD one day and he will THANK GOD for using Him to glorify God's name, fame, and greatness.

And, yes, Job did have a choice. He had and made MANY choices during his ordeal. But God sustained Job's integrity and trust in his God. It was ALL of God. Job knew it. And Job PRAISED GOD FOR IT and God blessed Job DOUBLE! I'll be the first to admit that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, but I am beginning to understand them. Praise God that that!

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

I hope it is all beginning to make more sense to you, Matthew. Ask God for a spirit of wisdom and He will surely give to you.

Sincerely,

Ray
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 20, 2008, 07:37:07 PM: Kat.

Which one of these scenarios is correct?

A) God sends causes to me to rob a bank, but I also have a choice, so I can choose to rob the bank and move on or I can choose not to rob the bank and move on.

B) God sends causes for me to rob a bank, so my will is subjected to His will and I must rob the bank because I cannot go against God’s purpose.

Now, I don’t have freedom of my will because my will is always subjected to Gods will and so God sends causes directly to my will or uses outside forces and motivates me to make a decisions.

Now any decision I make was made only because of causes sent to me by God. (A) Now I decided to say yes, but God wanted me to say no. (B) Or I decided to say no and God wanted me to say no.

Which one of these is correct (A) or (B) :-\

Thank you Kat for your help. Your friend and brother in our Lord. Richard.
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Kat on October 20, 2008, 10:09:40 PM: Hi Richard,

I don't think you can say what about this or what about that. These 'causes' are brought about in a intricate and complex matter that is interwoven with everybody you come in contact with. Think about how everybody in this world is thinking, doing and saying what is according to a certain path that God has predestined for each of us and coordinates together with everybody else and will be in line with His plan. This is far beyond what we are capable of comprehending. But maybe just knowing He is sovereign we can except that.

Here is an email, Ray explains this better than I.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html ------

Not having free will or free choice does not mean that you do not HAVE a will or choices. Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING. We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN. The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own. It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are.
-------------------------------------------------------

All I can say is it takes time for all of this to sink in. Just reading Ray's series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed' over and over is the best way to put it together in your head, each time more pieces will come together for you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: KristaD on October 20, 2008, 10:43:34 PM: Quote from: Kat on October 20, 2008, 10:09:40 PM

All I can say is it takes time for all of this to sink in. Just reading Ray's series on 'The Myth of Free Will Exposed' over and over is the best way to put it together in your head, each time more pieces will come together for you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Out of everything we have all said here this is by far the best advice/answer for you. It probably took me over a year once I finally accepted that we don't have free will to actually understand what that means. Just rest, the answers will come and they will come easily when it is time, everything will just click. Just trust Him and rest assured that you cannot mess anything up by not getting it all right now ;).
Title: Re: How deep has Ray’s teachings taken us?
Post by: Richard D on October 21, 2008, 11:41:09 AM: To Kat and all who have posted on this thread I thank you all very much. Although I don’t fully understand how this plays out in my life one thing I do know and that it’s not in man to direct his footsteps.

That’s a far cry from my earlier belief of Christendom when I thought my thoughts were independent of God’s purpose or will.

Kat, your advice is well received and I will study Ray’s free will series as many times as needed.

I thank you all for your patients and kindness towards my lack of understanding which does testifies to the love of God in which we all move in.

In God’s love. Richard.