2Pe 2:4 God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.
Jud 1:6 Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.
What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?
If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?
Luk 8:27 As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent
Mar 5:12 So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?
Job 1:7 The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."
1Pe 5:8 Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ? :-\
Hi Rick,
I think there is a lot in the answers provided here. I will only add that I believe the messengers that Peter and Jude refer to are not the same as the ministers of satan now who are transformed into ministers of righteousness. I think the ones peter is referencing are of a certain different kind, being spiritual in nature, even similar to the evil spirits God sent out in the old testament or worse. Either way, they are chained up, and I believe that includes to this day.
Wherever Peter and Jude got their inspiration from to say those things, besides being from God, we cannot know now. If there was a book inspired of God before which was written, even the book where the arch angel Micheal rebuked satan over the disputation of moses body, these are now lost. All as God planned though.
God bless,
Alex
2Pe 2:4 God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell, where they are kept chained in darkness, waiting for the Day of Judgment.
Jud 1:6 Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned.
What I’m trying to figure out is if these angles that kept not their first estate are still bound in chains of darkness or did they manage to escape ?
If they did not escape then are there other angles that did likewise at a later period and God did not condemn those to the pit until judgement ?
Luk 8:27 As Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a man from the town who had demons in him. For a long time this man had gone without clothes and would not stay at home, but spent
Mar 5:12 So the spirits begged Jesus, "Send us to the pigs, and let us go into them."
Where did these demons come from who were possessing these people during Christ ministry if these are not the angles who left there first estate and are they still on the loose ?
Job 1:7 The LORD asked him, "What have you been doing?" Satan answered, "I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth."
1Pe 5:8 Be alert, be on watch! Your enemy, the Devil, roams around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
So I see Satan is loose roaming around the earth seeking who he might devour but what about these others ? :-\
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
When considering this verse in 2 Peter, just go back a few verses and see what Peter begins this passage by speaking of.
2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
v. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
v. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
I think it is the word "angels" in verse 4 that throws us off (at least it has me), but Strong's does say that the word also refers to messengers and PASTORS.
If you think about what Peter is saying there, those angels/pastors were cast down to hell/tartaroo, which means hades or the grave. Here's a expert from Ray's LOF 16. D5.
The Greek word "hades," means "imperceptible or unseen," however, to the Greeks this word also represented both the god Hades and the domain of Hades, which was the state of the dead, and underworld. Originally this word did not mean a place of pain and torture. That bit of paganism was borrowed from the Egyptian underworld of Amenti with its lowest realm being Tartaroo where it was taught that there was pain and suffering. http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm
And Peter goes on to explain that these Pastors back in the time of Noah certainly died and went to the grave, as only Noah and his family (8 people) were saved from the flood.
2Peter 2:5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
So the grave does reserve/hold a person, you could say in "chains of darkness," the grave certainly is dark, until resurrection and judgment day at Christ's return.
And I think this is much the same that is spoken about in Jude 1. I am thinking Gina is right about about these pastors left their "first" or most important responsibility of serving/shepherding the people or else there would have been more on the ark than just Noah's family, but that was not meant to be. Looking further down in the chapter where Peter mention "angels" again, consider what he is saying there (I'm putting my opinion in parentheses there).
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
v. 10 and especially those (unjust) who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They (unjust) are presumptuous, self-willed. They (unjust) are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
v. 11 whereas angels (pastors), who are greater in power and might (having positions of authority), do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
I guess this is saying those pastors did nothing in the face of all the wickedness around them, or even took part in it, because they were among those washed away in the flood too. And Peter continues on and on about what he started out speaking on "false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you," I think he made his point very clear, there have always been false teachers/pastors/shepherds. He speaks of back in Noah's day, so from the beginning of recorded Scripture, this age is filled up with darkness.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Anyway just gave my opinions on this for consideration.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Gina,
You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Where is it that all men end up?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.
Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)
Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
God be with you,
Alex
Hi Gina,
You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Where is it that all men end up?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.
Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)
Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
God be with you,
Alex
Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you. You have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.
Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned. Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.
Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.
I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]
Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.
Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.
Hi Kat,Here is the ESV. I think it shows the good "ifs" and THEN ... statement. "Because" then "LIKEWIS..."
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;
2Pe 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
2Pe 2:10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,
2Pe 2:11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you.
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Seems to me like these messengers are going to get exactly what the angels who did not keep their first estate are currently experiencing.
I certainly don't see how they can be have gloom and darkness reserved for them [future, see verse 17] if they are already comitted in that gloom and darkness of tartarus [see v. 4]
Seems to me like we have two different groups being spoken of here of which the end result will be similar for both.
Its how I see it. I'll leave it as that.
The only place that tartaroo is mention in Scripture is there in 2 Peter 2:4, and Strong's has it G5020 Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades)... hades is the 'state' of being dead or having no perception or consciousnesses, I do not see that as being like a prison for angels.
There is a place that Scripture speaks of a prison or holding place for Satan and you know of it, the "bottomless pit" and that only occurs at the very end of this age.
Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit(G12), and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Strong
G12 abussos - depthless, that is, (specifically), (infernal) “abyss”: - deep, (bottomless) pit.
Maybe Peter used that word "tartaroo" to show how utterly deplorable it is for pastors to abuse their position. But here is an email that speaks about what hades is, so therefore it should apply to tartartoo.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2899.0.html -----
Ray, I appreciate your time in covering these subjects.....My questions may center around terminology . With the spirit of the dead Jesus being with God and and with the body bring in hades (grave)
COMMENT: But hades is NOT the grave. Hades is the same as sheol in the Hebrew. It is the "state" of the dead, not the grave, or the location of the dead.
for the 3-3+days prior to resurrection, does the word soul have a meaning (during this period)?
COMMENT: Yes, of course, the word soul always has meaning. Does it have an "existence," however? No, that is why it is said to be in "hades" which means "imperceptible." There souls which IS PERCEPTION goes to IMPERCEPTION. Hence, it has no consciousness whatsoever.
Was the Spirit of Jesus a separate "consciousness" during this period?
COMMENT: The spirit HAS NO CONSCIOUSNESS, not even in life. When a doctor puts someone under to operate, the person is NOT DEAD, he still has his spirit, but he has NO CONSCIOUSNESS. We need a brain to have soul and consciousness. When someone shoots you through the brain, you LOSE YOUR SOUL.
God be with you,
Ray
Hi Gina,
You're welcome to disagree but doing a scripture dump on me does not prove your point. You're comparing apples to oranges here.
Where is it that all men end up?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O Lord my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in the grave [Hades/Sheol] , behold, You are there.
Men lie down in the dust of the earth, they make their beds in the grave. The angels peter is talking about are not chained in Hell [Hades/Sheol] but rather Tartarus.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;" (CLV)
Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
I'm not sure I agree with Thayer's definition on it "answering ot the Gehenna of the Jews" only because I understand what Gehenna is--The lake of fire in this life.
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
God be with you,
Alex
Alex, I didn't do a scripture dump on you. You have no idea what you're talking about. Jesus threw (CAST) the money changers out of the temple, and that was prophetic too.
Ezekiel is talking about men who sinned. Please read Ray's paper again on the Lucifer Hoax.
Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned.
Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----------------------------
"On the day you were created, I placed you beside the kherubs on the sacred hill of God; you walked amid the flashing thunder-stones" (A New Translations by James Moffatt)
"In the day of your creation they established the anointed cherub’s booth. And I bestow you in the holy mountain of Alueim [God]" (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)
"With an anointed cherub as guardian I place you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire" (The New Revised Standard Version)
"With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones" (The New American Bible)
Two things should be abundantly clear from these translations: (1) These verses are certainly a challenge to translate, and (2) The prince of Tyrus was NOT the cherub, himself, but rather the cherub was placed as a guardian BESIDE OR WITH the prince of Tyrus. A further proof that the prince of Tyrus cannot be, himself this cherub, is found in the grammar. Where KJV translates, "Thou art the anointed cherub…" the word translated "Thou" is the Hebrew word "ath" which can be either a pronoun or the object of a verb. But in Ezek. 28:14, it can’t be a pronoun because it is not the same gender as "cherub." The Hebrew word ath is feminine while the Hebrew word kruwg translated cherub, is masculine.
WHAT ARE CHERUBS?
Aren’t cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.
Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.
"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).
They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).
It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).
There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.
"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).
Cherubim are associated with the mercy seat, the decorations of the tabernacle and later the temple, and are associated with the Throne of God in Ezekiel. The possibility that there is cherubim associated with the throne of world leaders also seem plausible. Whatever their earthly function, there was a cherub associated with the king of Tyrus. He was with or beside the king, but he was not the king, himself, neither was he Satan.[/u]
Next we read a remarkable thing in the KJV in the last part of verse 16 of Ezek. 28:
"By the multitude of thy [king of Tyrus] merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O COVERING CHERUB [??], from the midst of the stones of fire."
Wait just a minute. This is nonsense! God is going to destroy the king of Tyrus, not the SPIRIT CHERUB! Spirits can’t be destroyed. WHY WOULD GOD DESTROY HIS CHERUB WHEN IT IS THE KING THAT SINNED, NOT THE CHERUB?
The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.
etc..... See the article for more details.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Gina, I would really appreciate it if you don't throw such wild accusations as "you have no idea what you're talking about." You address a brother like that?
God be with you,
Alex
Now there are many examples in the old testament of evil spirits. Here is a different type but one that answers to Peter's and Jude's statements.
Ezekiel 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. (RSV)
Ezekiel 28:16 Your rich commerce led you to violence, and you sinned. So I banished you in disgrace from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. (NLT)
Ezekiel 28:16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. (NIV)
So there are certainly instances in scripture where, while these things remain obscure, we do see some angels which did not keep their first estate but were cast out by God.
The king wasn’t the anointed cherub, neither was Satan the anointed cherub. Satan is nowhere mentioned in these Scriptures. There was iniquity found IN THE KING (Verse 15). It was THE KING that got rich by trading merchandise (Verse 16), not the Cherub. Cherubs don’t trade merchandise. God is casting THE KING out of His mountain (high position of government), not the cherub. God will destroy THE KING (Verse 16), not the cherub. God will bring to "ashes" THE KING, not the cherub. Spirit creatures cannot be turned into ashes as human flesh can. And all the people that knew THE KING will see this happen to him. The people didn’t know the cherub.
Ray made clear the Cherub reference is not a man who sinned. Ray explains that the Cherub is beside or with the King of Tyrus and that God will destroy the King of Tyrus, not the cherub; However, the Cherub himself is cast out/destroyed of/from the mountain of God.
Gina,
The King was cast out, NOT the cherub. The King was on the high mountain of God, therefore the King was a minister (angel) of God. And a FALSE one at that.
You're a sneaky one. I don't like your tactics at all. Well, it's like Ray said: YOU CAN'T CORNER A SNAKE IN A BRIAR PATCH!
Now, go do what you ALWAYS DO when you've completely screwed up: Go put a song up in the Light-hearted banter section or start another thread to bury the truth, as if you could. ha-ha!
This is my last reply to you, Alex.
Well Alex, I began thinking tartaroo might also be the state of being dead, because it is defined as a part of hades, and since the word used as "angels" can be speaking of men or pastors, that fits into the whole passage of what Peter is speaking about. I have struggled looking at the passage for a long time, and that is the only way it really seems to make sense for me.
Besides 2 Peter and 1 Jude (that I believe is speaking of the same thing) there is no other mention of angels/spirits being held in prison in this age and there is no explanation anywhere in Scripture as to why this would be done. No, there's just Christ casting the devil (and his angels?) into the bottomless pit when He returns, nothing else about it being before that.
Anyway I do not hold this as a n absolute truth, no it's just my take on this at this time and have no desire to stir up contention because of it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Alex, I remember the messenger of Satan who delivered inordinate blows to Paul.
http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html
"Paul’s splinter was a messenger of Satan. His purpose was to buffet Paul. Buffeting was the category that Paul said happened to him inordinately, which answers in kind to Paul’s transcendence in revelations. So Paul lived for twenty-five years, being "hit hard," "suddenly," constantly and incessantly (like an aggravating "splinter in the flesh.")"
My goodness, that sounds familiar, though for the first 25 years, in my life, the messenger of Satan got the best of me.
MESSENGER OF SATAN, not a demon. And I reckon a messenger of Satan can and does have multiple "mouths" and ministers just as the Word of God had multiple prophets and servants and 'examples'.
No Alex, he suffered those things first because he was out there preaching the Gospel. Shipwrecks, storms, etc. were NOT the works of this "messenger of Satan". INORDINATE BLOWS were. Read it again.
Just read it again. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But the way I read it there is a distinction between all of those other trials and the "inordinate blows" delivered by the Messenger of Satan. Shipwrecks are not storms. Beatings are not imprisonment. Inordinate blows are not occasional trials and troubles--all of those can happen to anybody, and do. "Inordinate blows" by the Messenger of Satan were the result of the transcendence of his vision. That's not common to every Tom, Dick, and Mary.
Hi Rick,
I feel like you're trading one extreme perspective for another. Yes, demons can be false doctrines, but they aren't only false doctrins. Ray once said that he had exercised out seven demons from a woman with the help of other church goers. The demons weren't very clever as they had simple names like, "Bok, Boook" etc... I can't find the specific audio where he goes into detail on that exercosim but he does reference it in an email below briefly.
Lest you think I'm just picking a theological bone, there aren't many of us who have suffered the things Paul suffered in a physical sense. But everyone who has heard and is obeying the last call of Jesus to "come out of her, my people" is experiencing to some degree this God-given, messenger of Satan, 'thorn in the flesh' in relationship with the 'transcendence/highness' of what we've been graced to 'see'. See my 'tagline/signature' below. We're told not to be surprised, and to rejoice. It may get worse before it gets better.
Paul went on to 'glory in his weakness'. Despite some folk's obsession with the negative, there is a definite up-side to weakness. God give us the faith and wisdom to see it, because everyone is going to live it.
The way I see it all the things that happened to Paul were all ordered of the Lord.
Acts 9:15-16- But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great tings he must suffer for my name's sake.
Saul must have felt like a thorn in the flesh to the early members of the Church, before he was converted by the Lord himself. His main gold no doubt was to devour, and destroy anyone that were members of the body of Christ at that time. He for sure persecuted them, and buffeted them with many hurtful blows. (breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the LORD,) Acts 9:1
Joel
A splinter seems rather mild compared to the miseries that define buffet. That’s because Paul is not speaking of intensity when he speaks of a "splinter," but rather the incessantness of a splinter. The pain and aggravation is constant.
Another telling word is found in Paul’s entreaty: "For this I entreat the Lord thrice, that it should withdraw from me.
The Greek word translated "withdraw" is aphistemi = FROM-STAND. Only a creature of intelligence and mobility can possibly "withdraw" from someone.
Withdrawal is used fifteen times in the Greek Scriptures, and always refers to people or creatures of mobility. "Withdrawal" is never used in connection with inanimate objects. Objects are normally "removed" or "taken away." They do not "withdraw." When Paul asked God to have "it" withdraw from him, the "it" was not an "object or thing,", but "a creature."
Was it better for Judas had he not been born?
Why did Judas betray Jesus? For the silver, for the money? Jesus tells why Judas betrayed Him yet many think it was because Judas was such an incredible sinner--one of the worst humans ever born? Is that true? Here is why Judas betrayed Jesus:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).
Yes, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Judas had to do what he did because the Scripture had to be fulfilled. Did Judas desire in his heart to betray Jesus? Did he personally look forward to this deed and the money he would get? I don't think so! Isaiah 53:10 tells us that "It pleased God to bruise Him [His Son]." So in this verse God takes responsibility for the "bruising" [crucifixion] of His Son. So how could Judas be held eternally guilty for this crime?
Let me assure you, that Judas all on his own, even with his carnal mind, did not possess the required evil necessary to betray His LORD with a kiss. How so?
"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).
This is the only time in the history of the world that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being. How pray tell without the power of God is it possible to resist the power of Satan? If Judas could have pulled this whole thing off by his own power and devices, it would not have been necessary for Satan to possess his mind. When Satan left Judas, Judas REPENTED. Why did he repent? Do we have any clues?
This is not a mystery, his conscious was killing him! He recognized his horrible sin, and confessed it: "I have sinned in that I have betrayed innocent blood." He confessed that Jesus was innocent and he was guilty, and he tried to make partial amends by returning the thirty pieces of silver. And lastly, but most importantly, he LAID DOWN HIS LIFE for the Friend that he betrayed. Jesus was Judas' Friend. Judas didn't repent just because he was a sinning man. He repented because he shed the blood of his innocent Master. Judas was very specific in his repentance. Judas laid down his life for his friend Jesus in the only way he knew how under the distressing, mind--boggling circumstances in which he saw himself--HE HANGED HIMSELF!
How many of us have the guts to hang ourselves for the sins that we have committed?
If Judas did not have feelings of love toward Jesus Whom he publically acknowledged was an innocent Man, he would not have felt guilty, he would not have returned the silver, and he would not have killed himself. He would have gone out and spent the money. Now then, who are we to question or doubt the sincerity of his heart-felt repentance?
Does your conscience slay you for the wrongs you have committed? Have you confessed these sins before God and man? Have you acknowledged the shedding of Christ's innocent blood for your sins? Have you done all in your power to make amends for all the wrongs and sins that you have committed?
Have you laid down your life as a living sacrifice to God? Well if you have done all these, then you may have at least attained to the same level of spirituality as Judas. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (Jas. 4:7). Since Judas did not submit to God, Satan the Devil took him. When Satan departed, Judas inspired to do the right thing. Who is to say that Judas didn't do the right thing under such a bizarre drama as this?
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that You gave Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).
"Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them" (Luke 22:3-4).
This is the only time in the history of the world [/u] that we have an account of Satan actually entering into and possessing the mind of another human being[/b].
SOURCE: http://bible-truths.com/JudasNotBorn.htm