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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Mando on April 23, 2009, 05:39:37 AM
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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Eze 32:21 The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.
Jon 2:2 And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.
according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
Thanks
Mando
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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Eze 32:21 The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.
Jon 2:2 And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.
according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
Thanks
Mando
FYI: 'An Encouraging Thought about Death' (http://bible-truths.com/death.htm)
Marques
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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Eze 32:21 The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.
Jon 2:2 And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.
according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
Thanks
Mando
Email to Ray. Hope it helps.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3121.0.html
If you believe that life and consciousness do not exist after death according to Ecclesiastes 9:5 how would you explain Isa. 14:9-11 Ezek: 32:21and Rev.6:9-11, comparing scripture with scripture. God Bless Eddie
Dear Eddie:
Some things can be "explained," but may not be able to be "proved." I can tell you that all of these Scriptures are in "figurative" rather than "literal" language, but that does not means that you will believe me, anymore than when I showed "plucking out one's eye or cutting of one's hand" in accordance with Christ's admonition concerning offensive sins, was believed by those who read it. I received comments that these admonitions were indeed LITERAL, even though they conceded that we are not to LITERALLY pluck out our physical eyes, etc.
How, for example does "pomp" go to the grave (or sheol)? It is, of course, FIGURATIVE. If these verses in figurative language are literal, then we must concede that such verses as Gen. 4:10 are literal: "...the VOICE of your brother's BLOOD cries unto Me from the ground." Someone might actually claim that blood is immortal, and although spilled on the ground, and completely dried up, nonetheless, is still alive and......AND POSSESSES VOCAL CORDS AND CAN SPEAK!!
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
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Hi Mando,
Jonah 2:2 And he said:
"I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.
This is Jonah and he is comparing being in the fishes belly to being in the grave. I think unless God saves him it actually would be his grave.
Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty
Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
With those who help him:
"They have gone down,
They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'
As the email that Mark pointed out this verse in Ezekiel would be 'figurative.' It's not a real conversation.
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
v. 10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Chapter 14 in Isaiah seem to be referring to the time when Christ will be ruling the earth. Verse 9 I think is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, "Sheol (grave) from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming." Indeed all of the former "kings of the nations" will be made weak when Christ is ruling the earth.
Just thought I would give you my perspective on this, hope it was helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat,
Great commentary. I kept reading the whole chapters of each of these verses and wasn't quite sure of what I was reading. Like I have said in another thread, it is hard for me to see "Christ" in the OT sometimes. Regarding Isa 14:9, I was certain it was speaking of Christ so it's good to have it confirmed and I'm glad I was able to see this on my own first.
I hope Mando can see this truth. When a verse like Ecc 9:5 is so clear cut, and all God's words are true, you know that if you see another verse that appears to contradict, there has to be an explanation. I find that the explanations are almost always because the passages are being read too literally. Once read figuratively or metaphorically, things become clear and harmonic.
Eileen
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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Eze 32:21 The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.
Jon 2:2 And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.
according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
Thanks
Mando
- The first problem is that the Church has gotten far too comfortable with teaching Bible Contradictions. They won't openly admit that it contradicts, but their doctrines prove that they believe that it does.
- The verses from Ezekiel and Isaiah are prophecies. They are visions, they are figurative, not literal events. The entire Book of Revelations is a prophecy from a vision. The Church has no concept of figurative speech; they need to go back to Grade School. ???
- The verse in Jonah is from when Jonah was in the belly of the giant fish. Unless all wicked people will live eternally in the belly of a super-gigantic fish :o, then this has nothing to do with Sheol/Hell... literally...
Hope that helps, friend.
- Daywalker. 8)
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thanks for all your replies. I knew I would get much feedback. We always need to question everything and this is just one example of me doing so. Thanks again.
respectfully
Mando
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Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die; but the dead do not know anything; nor do they have any more a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
here are some verses that Christiandom uses to say that there is "fully conscious" in Sheol........
Isa 14:9 Sheol from below is stirred for you, to meet you at your coming; it stirs up the departed spirits for you, all the he goats of the earth. It has raised all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isa 14:10 All of them shall answer and say to you, Are you also made as weak as we? Are you likened to us?
Eze 32:21 The strong of the mighty shall speak to him from the midst of Sheol, they went with his helpers; they, the uncircumcised, lie slain by the sword.
Jon 2:2 And he said, I cried out to Jehovah from my distress. And He answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried for help, and You heard my voice.
according to Ecc 9:5, there is NOTHING going on in Sheol. But in Isa. 14:9-10 and Eze 32:21 and Jon 2:2, it looks like there's some action going on.
if anyone can give me an explanation or lead me to any of Ray's teaching that touch these verses.
Thanks
Mando
- The first problem is that the Church has gotten far too comfortable with teaching Bible Contradictions. They won't openly admit that it contradicts, but their doctrines prove that they believe that it does.
- The verses from Ezekiel and Isaiah are prophecies. They are visions, they are figurative, not literal events. The entire Book of Revelations is a prophecy from a vision. The Church has no concept of figurative speech; they need to go back to Grade School. ???
- The verse in Jonah is from when Jonah was in the belly of the giant fish. Unless all wicked people will live eternally in the belly of a super-gigantic fish :o, then this has nothing to do with Sheol/Hell... literally...
Hope that helps, friend.
- Daywalker. 8)
I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.
Antaiwan
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I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.
Antaiwan
Tis true! It is a beautiful, poetic translation. It's just unfortunate that there are a few verses that have been so badly translated, that the beauty of God's Word is smothered. One great example is in:
Psalms 139:7-8:
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. [King James]
But in all fairness, if the English word "hell' carried the same meaning now, as it did 300 years ago, [to conceal, a covering] then it would remain it's prophetic beauty...
Here's a better translation that restores it:
Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence? If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there." [Concordant]
Simply put, no matter where you go, no matter what happens, GOD IS RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. God is Everywhere! ;D
...and that, my friends, is BEAUTIFUL
- Daywalker. 8)
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I agree Daywalker!!
The first installment of the lake of fire series is such a refresher on the figures of speech.
One of the reasons the KJV translation is so popular, its so beautifully written.
Antaiwan
Tis true! It is a beautiful, poetic translation. It's just unfortunate that there are a few verses that have been so badly translated, that the beauty of God's Word is smothered. One great example is in:
Psalms 139:7-8:
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. [King James]
But in all fairness, if the English word "hell' carried the same meaning now, as it did 300 years ago, [to conceal, a covering] then it would remain it's prophetic beauty...
Here's a better translation that restores it:
Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence? If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold, You are there." [Concordant]
Simply put, no matter where you go, no matter what happens, GOD IS RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. God is Everywhere! ;D
...and that, my friends, is BEAUTIFUL
- Daywalker. 8)
Wonderful example!!!
Antaiwan
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I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....
Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us? Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?
Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?
I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!
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That same thought occurred to me too Gena. In addition, how would one, who is in the realm of the imperceptible, behold (see) anything let alone a spirit which can't be seen in the first place? ??? ???
Eileen
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Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.
I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I am sure Rays, teaching on the orgin of Hell and death have all the scriptures that would clear this up.I know he discusses that we have to have a judgement. We do not have Imortality as of yet. We are motals. Rembember Babylon teaches Adam and Eve were perfect before there fall.We all face a judgement. The church now and the rest will be in the White Throne Judgement. I would say Ray's teaching on death and the Orgin of Hell or maybe we should all start reading Rays papers again.God would not be a fair judge if he would not even judge them.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....
Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us? Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?
Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?
I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!
What does one have to do with the other, every place where Scripture is quoted, that Scripture is Truth. Are we going to pick and choose which Scripture to believe now.
Psa 119:160 (KJV)
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Psa 119:160 (CLV)
The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Psa 119: 156-168 (CLV)
165 Much peace is for those loving Your law, And there is no stumbling block for them."
166 I look forward to Your salvation, O Yahweh, And I perform Your instructions."
167 My soul keeps Your testimonies, And I love them exceedingly."
168 I keep Your precepts and Your testimonies, For all my ways are in front of You."
These verses in 2nd Timothy are very important to read now, in connection with so much idle speculation going on. There is so much in Scripture that has been laboriously explained by Ray; and members have agreed to at least read and learn the basics of Rays teaching.
Recognize that no one is here by their own freewill; so then we are her by The Grace Of GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ. Come on people there is serious learning to do here and time draws ever nearer when this Age will be past.
At that time everyone of us will either be in The First Resurrection or waiting for Judgment in The LOF.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, it is meant to remind us of what we are about here.
2Tim 2: 5-19 (GNB)
5 An athlete who runs in a race cannot win the prize unless he obeys the rules.
6 The farmer who has done the hard work should have the first share of the harvest.
7 Think about what I am saying, because the Lord will enable you to understand it all.
8 Remember Jesus Christ, who was raised from death, who was a descendant of David, as is taught in the Good News I preach.
9 Because I preach the Good News, I suffer and I am even chained like a criminal. But the word of God is not in chains,
10 and so I endure everything for the sake of God's chosen people, in order that they too may obtain the salvation that comes through Christ Jesus and brings eternal glory.
11 This is a true saying: "If we have died with him, we shall also live with him.
12 If we continue to endure, we shall also rule with him. If we deny him, he also will deny us.
13 If we are not faithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot be false to himself."
14 Remind your people of this, and give them a solemn warning in God's presence not to fight over words. It does no good, but only ruins the people who listen.
15 Do your best to win full approval in God's sight, as a worker who is not ashamed of his work, one who correctly teaches the message of God's truth.
16 Keep away from profane and foolish discussions, which only drive people farther away from God.
17 Such teaching is like an open sore that eats away the flesh. Two men who have taught such things are Hymenaeus and Philetus.
18 They have left the way of truth and are upsetting the faith of some believers by saying that our resurrection has already taken place.
19 But the solid foundation that God has laid cannot be shaken; and on it are written these words: "The Lord knows those who are his" and "Those who say that they belong to the Lord must turn away from wrongdoing."
george. :)
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That same thought occurred to me too Gena. In addition, how would one, who is in the realm of the imperceptible, behold (see) anything let alone a spirit which can't be seen in the first place? ??? ???
Eileen
Nobody "literally" goes anywhere when they die. It's called Sheol--the Unseen, but it's not a "literal" place. The statement by David is poetic and symbolic. In symbolism, visions, prophetic dreams, etc., Sheol can be described as an actual place, even though it's not [Just like Jesus is called the "Lamb" of God, thought He is not really a lamb.]
David is simply saying that God is everywhere. No matter where you go, you can't get away from Him. You can't outrun or hide from God, because there is no place in existence that He isn't there.
John 4:24 God is Spirit...
Colossians 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
That's all. ;)
- Daywalker. 8)
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Posted by: gmik
Insert Quote
I have enjoyed this thread...but I have an itsy bitsy question.....
Ahem...Can God actually be in the unseen w/ us? Why would He be if our spirit goes back to Him?
Or can half a verse be literal and half a verse be spiritual?
I agree that is a beautifully worded passage....I just would like to answer intelligently when my friend will certainly use this scripture "against" the dead being dead!
Gena , We have to remember there is no Hell! Hell should have read grave.
Psalms 49 verse 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave fo he shall receive me. Selah
1 Corinthians Chapter 15 verse 55 O death, where is they sting; O grave, where is thy victory?
Verse 56 The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is law.
Verse 58 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus had the victory over sin which caused Death. There is no Hell to save anyone from.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Nobody "literally" goes anywhere when they die. It's called Sheol--the Unseen, but it's not a "literal" place. The statement by David is poetic and symbolic. In symbolism, visions, prophetic dreams, etc., Sheol can be described as an actual place, even though it's not [Just like Jesus is called the "Lamb" of God, thought He is not really a lamb.]
David is simply saying that God is everywhere. No matter where you go, you can't get away from Him. You can't outrun or hide from God, because there is no place in existence that He isn't there.
Exactly. "Sheol" is not the new "heaven or hell". It's noplace at all. Dead people are dead and know nothing...not even that they are dead. Resurrection is our hope. Without resurrection, death is the end of us.
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Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.
I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.
In His Love,
Marlene
Marlene,
I think this too, when you're dead the whole person is dead, sleeping, so why would not the all, include the spirit that has returned to God!?
Are the rest of you agreeing, or is Marlene's and my thinking off base? Input please.
luv,meee
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Now, I am not sure but since I always have to be satisfied somehow because my curiousty can drive me nuts, I just thought the Spirit was God anyway,His Spirit keeps us alive as much as the physical body does. God just leaves the body. Didn't those 2 people(married) in the new Testament (because they kept some of the money from their property) just drop dead. Their physical body was o.k. but God withdrew from them. judy ??
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Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.
I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.
In His Love,
Marlene
Marlene,
I think this too, when you're dead the whole person is dead, sleeping, so why would not the all, include the spirit that has returned to God!?
Are the rest of you agreeing, or is Marlene's and my thinking off base? Input please.
luv,meee
Hey Marlene and Meee,
The "spirit" that God gives to all of us, is not another "person" inside of us. It's the "breath" that God gives to us, which enables us to be "alive":
Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
God is Spirit. He is the Spirit that gives us all life. He is the Spirit that takes away life also. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that our "spirit" sleeps. It says that humans/animals all sleep in the dust. But the "spirit"--the breath which gives us life--returns to God, who is Spirit, and is life...
The Scriptures say the dead are asleep:
Deuteronomy 31:16: And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
II Samuel 7:12: And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
I Kings 1:21: Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
I Kings 11:43: And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
Job 7:21: And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Notice: We "sleep in the dust". For "dust we are, and to dust we return"--Gen 3:19 ... Nothing about our "spirits" sleeping somewhere separate from us...
Job 14:11-13: As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drift up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Psalm 13:3: Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
II Peter 3:3-4: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
I Corinthians 15:51-52: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I Thessalonians 4:13-15: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Hope that helps clear the air,
- Daywalker. 8)
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Now, I could be thinking about this wrong. Since, the body is in the grave and the spirit goes back to God. The spirit would be in safe keeping with God till he ressurect us from the dead. I do not see why the spirit could not be sleeping just because God has taken it back. After, all he will be giving all the ones life that have died when he returns. This is the rest for the saints from trials and tribulations and labours. It is rest to the generation while god continues to deal with the other generations. It also, takes away from some of the wicked in each generation. Doesn't God quicken our sprit to life. We really do need scriptures. With out a ressurection our believe is in vain.
I will try and find some scriptures, but in the mean time maye others can find those for us.
In His Love,
Marlene
Marlene,
I think this too, when you're dead the whole person is dead, sleeping, so why would not the all, include the spirit that has returned to God!?
Are the rest of you agreeing, or is Marlene's and my thinking off base? Input please.
luv,meee
Hey Marlene and Meee,
The "spirit" that God gives to all of us, is not another "person" inside of us. It's the "breath" that God gives to us, which enables us to be "alive":
Gen 2:7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.
God is Spirit. He is the Spirit that gives us all life. He is the Spirit that takes away life also. Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that our "spirit" sleeps. It says that humans/animals all sleep in the dust. But the "spirit"--the breath which gives us life--returns to God, who is Spirit, and is life...
The Scriptures say the dead are asleep:
Deuteronomy 31:16: And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
II Samuel 7:12: And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
I Kings 1:21: Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.
I Kings 11:43: And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.
Job 7:21: And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
Notice: We "sleep in the dust". For "dust we are, and to dust we return"--Gen 3:19 ... Nothing about our "spirits" sleeping somewhere separate from us...
Job 14:11-13: As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drift up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Psalm 13:3: Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
II Peter 3:3-4: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
I Corinthians 15:51-52: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I Thessalonians 4:13-15: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Hope that helps clear the air,
- Daywalker. 8)
Hey Daywalker,
Yea, I understood about the breath of life God gives us and that it returns to God when we die.
Sooooo, what are we then, we die, the entire person is dead, and without the breath of life we have no spirit, except the initial down payment of holy Spirit [ before we die } when we repent and return to God? I don't know how to say what I'm asking, are you understanding my question?
No, I know it isn't a separate person inside of us, but when the spirit returns to God, what does the person that is dead consist of. Is it that we are either a living soul or dead soul and that's it?
I want to get this right, so more help please.
Much thanks, meee
-
Daywalker, I know he gives us breath and he breaths this in us and we become alivie. When, my father was dying they asked us not to talk about his illness cause the brain could still hear it till he actually die. I know, our spirit goes back to him. I know he will resssurect. I did not think I had a literal body inside me. Without, that breath I am dead.
I sat there and watched my Fathers breathing go so low you could barely tell when he had stopped except we knew he had died. God was so gracious to us.
I have no doubt in my mind we are dead. But the breath is in his care till he blows it back into us.
But, I know the Spirit of God is working in me now. Never thought I had another person in me. Sounds more like what Babylon might think.
In His Love,
Marlene
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What do The Scriptures Say:
Ecc 9:5-6 (ASV)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9: 5-6 (GW)
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no more reward for the dead when the memory of them has faded.
6 Their love, their hate, and their passions have already vanished. They will never again take part in anything that happens under the sun.
Psa 6:5 (ASV)
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 6:5 (CLV)
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the unseen, who shall acclaim You?
Ecc 9:10 (ASV)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
george. :)
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What do The Scriptures Say:
Ecc 9:5-6 (ASV)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9: 5-6 (GW)
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything. There is no more reward for the dead when the memory of them has faded.
6 Their love, their hate, and their passions have already vanished. They will never again take part in anything that happens under the sun.
Psa 6:5 (ASV)
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 6:5 (CLV)
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the unseen, who shall acclaim You?
Ecc 9:10 (ASV)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
george. :)
Yes George I understand and do believe this.
I was asking what the body consist of? Is it that we are either a living soul or dead soul and that's it?
I have so much unlearning to take place, and that is exactly my problem now. There are teachings about what a person is, like body,soul,spirit. That's ok, thanks for the help, if it something I need to understand in due time I will, so thanks for trying to help me anyway. :) I'm unable to make my question understandable :-[ :(
hugs,meee
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Meee,
Here is a link to a email(s) with comments that may help you understand better.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html
Suzie
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Hi meee,
Sorry about the confusion with your questions. Here is a link you may have read some of; it should keep you busy for a day or two:
Nothing is left that we can call our own, see below.
Ecc 9:10 (ASV)
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
More of Rays Teaching.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html
There are many subjects here that partly address your questions, after a study you will have those and many other questions answered.
george. :)
-
Mee,
Maybe this will help?
You have to get out of out if your head the idea that the spirit soul and body are "separate entities" as if they could function independently of each other. Remember my TV analogy of six years ago? The console is the body, the picture is the soul, and the electricity is the spirit. Yes, they are "entities," if you will that have distinct names, and functions, but none of them produces anything independent of each other. Smash the console and you have not soul (picture). Pull the plug and you have not soul (picture).
Likewise remove the spirit, and the body dies. Remove the spirit and the soul disappears. Smash the body and the soul disappears. The soul IS THE SENTIENT man. The emotional, thinking, conscious man. This consciousness is called "soul." It is not a thing that can literally travel or go somewhere independent of the body and brain. That is why it is said in the Greek Scriptures that at death the soul goes to hades. Hades means the unseen, the imperceptible, unconsciousness.
It takes spirit from God in a body to give it life, which life is then called "a LIVING SOUL."
It takes a little meditation to understand these concepts.
God be with you
Ray
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Good morning Cherokee, Suzy, Eileen and George,
Thanks so much for your input and I will study these out and pray.
I know our body is the temple for the Spirit and understand the breath of life and being dead means not knowing,being aware of anything, sound asleep, as it were. I know God makes people living souls as well as animals are living souls and also that we are either living souls or dead souls.
Thanks again for the links and for the TV thing from Ray, it's going to become clear soon.
hugs,meee
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Daywalker, I know he gives us breath and he breaths this in us and we become alivie. When, my father was dying they asked us not to talk about his illness cause the brain could still hear it till he actually die. I know, our spirit goes back to him. I know he will resssurect. I did not think I had a literal body inside me. Without, that breath I am dead.
I sat there and watched my Fathers breathing go so low you could barely tell when he had stopped except we knew he had died. God was so gracious to us.
I have no doubt in my mind we are dead. But the breath is in his care till he blows it back into us.
But, I know the Spirit of God is working in me now. Never thought I had another person in me. Sounds more like what Babylon might think.
In His Love,
Marlene
Meee: Is it that we are either a living soul or dead soul and that's it?
We are called living souls [Gen 2:7], and souls die [Ezek 18:4,20], so that seems to be a fair conclusion.
To be Scripturally "specific", God calls us dust: "For dust you are" [Gen 3:19], and hence this is where we return when we pass.
Marlene,
The reason I mentioned that our spirits are not persons [though I was convinced that you didn't believe that...] was because of the debating of 'do our spirits sleep?'. But since the 'spirit' represents our 'breath--life", and is not a 'person', it doesn't sleep. Sleep represents Death, but Spirit is Life.
I'm so sorry to hear about your Father. I know what it's like to watch someone die. I watched my Nana die a few years ago; she got breast cancer, and it was too late to do anything. I visited her in the Nursing Home, and like you said, her breathing was so low I thought she was dead. Plus, her whole body was stiff cause all the drugs they put in her. Then later that same day, my Mom went to visit her, and she actually was dead. She yelled for the nurse, and at first they said that she was only sleeping, but Mom made them check her pulse, and she was dead. I remember being so angry at them, because this was not how she wanted to die! >:(
But anyways, fun talking with ya,
- Daywalker. 8)
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Daywalker,
Thanks for your reply.
hugs,meee
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I understand Daywalker no problem about it. I know, its the Spirit that gives us life. Without, it we have nothing. Yes, I know we are nothing but dust. That , should humble us to see how much God loves us.
Yes, death can be a hard thing for sure to handle. Sorry, to hear about your Nana. It just gives so much more hope then Babylon. We never have to worry about our love ones that don't believe or are not converted. God, loves them all! I think we are really blessed to know the truths God has showed Ray. Although, we miss our loved ones and friends when they pass. We have the peace of knowing all will be ok. Thanks.
In His Love,
Marlene
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I understand Daywalker no problem about it. I know, its the Spirit that gives us life. Without, it we have nothing. Yes, I know we are nothing but dust. That , should humble us to see how much God loves us.
Yes, death can be a hard thing for sure to handle. Sorry, to hear about your Nana. It just gives so much more hope then Babylon. We never have to worry about our love ones that don't believe or are not converted. God, loves them all! I think we are really blessed to know the truths God has showed Ray. Although, we miss our loved ones and friends when they pass. We have the peace of knowing all will be ok. Thanks.
In His Love,
Marlene
AMEN! ;D
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Amen indeed!!
Well, have I just re-learned a great deal from this post. First, here is what is taught in christendom:
we are spirits, we have a soul, and we dwell or live in this body..AGAIN with the three in one thing..
I walked around so long thinking I was a spirit with a soul living in this body. I would mediate on repeating "I am a spirit, I am a spirit" :o :o ::) BUT now I understand, I understand the breath of life is a spirit and when we die that breath of life goes back to its source, Yahweh. Whow!! thank you all for being who you are, I appreciate it. What they teach in christendome!!!!
Charrie :-*