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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Brian on July 30, 2008, 06:36:32 PM
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Has anyone read Pagan Christianity by George Barna and Frank Viola?
This book contains thousands of traditions borrowed from various pagan cultures. The authors expertly trace the origins of traditions, rituals, ordinances to the pagan religions and cultures from which they came. Every Christian should read this book. It is a good start on this topic but I don't think they have gone far enough.
Have a happy and be sage
Brian
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Don't believe I've read that one, what I have learned from other sources is that they can trace most things back to Egypt?
Did this book do the same?
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With all love and respect Brian, I think we should refrain from reading such material.
Deu 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’
1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
14And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
Ex 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
And there are dozens of other scriptures commanding us not to enquire, go after, serve or have anything to do with other gods which are pagan gods and traditions. The Church systems we have come out of have taught us more than enough pagan traditions, hocus pocus beliefs, blasphemies and heresies, without reading books about such things. I prefer to use my time to study Gods word, rather than to study pagan traditions.
You say that every Christian should read this book, my understanding of the scriptures I've posted here and the dozens more that are similar would suggest to me that NO Christian should read this or any other book relating to pagan religions and traditions.
God be with you Brian.
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It sounds to me that the book is informing christians of the pagan roots of some of their beloved traditions like holidays and rituals in the churches not promoting pagan traditions. I don't see how reading that would be considered going after other gods. How are we to make sure that we do not go after, serve, inquire of or have anything to do with other gods and traditions if we don't know what they are in the first place? I certainly agree that we should not seek those things out or study them and that we should use our time to study God's word but what about those that do not know where the things they observe come from? What about those that don't realize all of the hocus pocus that is taught in the churches? Some people do not associate all of the references in the scriptures to modern day things and it takes another person to break it all down for them just like Ray has done for us with the teachings he has. I guess it really depends on the authors and their motives and beliefs and I don't know anything about them so I can't say much more than I think every christian should question traditions and observances and try to learn where they came from, if someone uses this book to do it that's fine. I learned it all by typing in "pagan christian holidays" into my search engine and finding lots of pagan sites where they laughed at the ignorance of christians about those things. I was not seeking out other gods, but simply trying to figure out who the Real God is. What I learned was another way that the god of churchianity did not line up with the God of the scriptures and it brought me closer to understanding Him and know who He really is. If I had been more mature perhaps I could have put the things together myself from the scriptures but that was how God had me do it at the time.
I get what you are saying but christians already "inquired after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’" and now those things are incorporated into the church's christianity. To truly leave babylon we must know what babylon is IMO.
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Here are some links to some of the materials that have been put on the web.
I hope you will prayerfully consider at least looking at these links.
*links no allowed*
Have a happy and be sage
Brian
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Hello Brian,
Also, you can find the origins of the paganism in " Christianity " from the Book; The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop(former Catholic Priest), it was written sometime in the late 1800's, I have a copy. Thankyou for the information you provided.
Regards, Samson.
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I agree. We must learn and know these things. I think the scriptures quoted by David are commanding us not take interest or even respect these pagan teachings (How often have we heard that we must respect the religious beliefs of everybody? Guess that includes the Al Qaeda.) It makes it alot easier to expose pagan teachings when we realize the source of them. I'm sure that Ray has put alot of time into the study of these pagan origins.
So David, I think you should try the spirit in such matters and decide, is God really telling us to remain ignorant of the world's most common false teachings?.
By the way, I've heard some theories as to what those pointed objects and bells represent at the top of churches. Sex and fertility are a big part of ancient paganism.
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"Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching. Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc."
No links?
I consider book reviews to be of the informational type.
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Hello Brian,
Also, you can find the origins of the paganism in " Christianity " from the Book; The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop(former Catholic Priest), it was written sometime in the late 1800's, I have a copy. Thankyou for the information you provided.
Regards, Samson.
:)
Thanks Samson, I have actually read that one many years ago. It is well worth the time to read.
The Two Babylons
or The Papal Worship
Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife
By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop
First published as a pamphlet in 1853— expanded in 1858
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Hi Brian,
We are pretty strike about what links are allowed on the 'General' board. As we keep it to what is taught at BT, but links to Bible sources would be okay.
We do allow links on the 'Off Topic' board as you posted from the rules; Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.
It's our intention to keep false teaching off and allow informational type links. Quotes are one thing, but links to a site are difficult to check all that is there, especially multiple links.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat,
I'll try to keep that in mind. How about "Wiki" sources?
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Hi Brian,
Well Wiki just makes info available as far as is known to be facts. Facts are helpful. It's the sources that teach their theology and doctrines. We don't need to try and sort out other's theories, we're trying to learn what is taught at BT.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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From The Lake of Fire Installment XVI—HELL: Part C
THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
EGYPT—THE GRANDSON OF NOAH
The Scriptural origin of Egypt is extremely easy to trace, though don’t expect many in the secular world to agree with this:
"The sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth" (Gen. 10:1).
"And the sons of Ham, Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan" (Gen. 10:6).
STRONG’S HEBREW DICTIONARY:
"H4714 Dual of H4693; Mitsrajim, that is, Upper and Lower Egypt: - Egypt, Egyptians, Mizraim."
There it is: "Mizraim," Noah’s grandson through his son Ham is EGYPT.
Egypt is mentioned from Genesis to Revelation--558 times (more than any other nation excepting Israel). This statistic alone should speak volumes to us regarding the importance of Egypt in God’s plan for humankind. It behooves us to learn more about the nation of Egypt, its history, its culture, and its religion. It has everything to do with understanding the many unscriptural doctrines of the Christian Church.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html
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I agree. In order to speak with others, we must know the source of where their pagan ideas come from. Therefore, we need to study these things. As you can see in some of the previous posts, Ray spends a good bit of time studying these things.
One of the more recent studies that I did was on Ray's paper "The Lucifer Hoax." In studying this, I learned a lot about the origin of the word, the origin of the belief in the fall of Lucifer, etc. I learned about Zoroastrianism and other popular religions and idea's prevalent around 500 BC. In fact, I can easily defend my position against any scholar on this topic now.
Here is an interesting fact: Scholars say that "Lucifer, son of the dawn" was translated from "Heylel ben Shachar". Shachar was considered the god of the dawn in Zoroastrian mythology. Then they go on to say that according to Isaiah 14:12, that Heylel was Shachar's son and tried to exalt himself above the gods, but was cast down. So then, where is this idea found in Zoroatrianism or the Ugaritic text that references the fall of Heylel, son of Shachar? Where is the name "Heylel" found in the Ugaritic text (Zoroastrianism). Get this....it doesn't exist! Scholars use our Holy Scriptures to support a pagan myth! Heylel should have been translated as "yalal" which means to "howl". The proper name "Heylel" was invented through the error of mistranslating one letter..."ell" instead of the correct "eill". It's amazing just how much scholars don't know! I just thought you guys might find that interesting. :)
So yes, we need to study these things so that we can have an answer for others.
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Ecclesiastes 1:12-18 "v13, I devoted myself to much study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under heaven.....v18, for with much wisdom comes much sorrow, that more knowledge the more grief."
I take note of all that has been said in this post....I do however strongly belief in my heart that we need to devote ourselves in that Word of God and what we learn here in BT. How many hours can be wasted trying to understand Babylon when we could have spent time with God....so I think there is much wisdom in what both David and Kat had to say.
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So David, I think you should try the spirit in such matters and decide, is God really telling us to remain ignorant of the world's most common false teachings?.
God puts us through the worlds most common false teachings, in the Church. So obviously we are not ignorant of such teachings. In Deuteronomy God is giving this command to His people that He has lead out of captivity in Egypt.
For me I think the word "darash/enquire" and all its definitions (frequent, ask, follow, question, search, seek) are clear enough. While there are so many things in Gods word I do not yet understand, I don't have the time to "enquire" after pagan gods and traditions. I hope and pray everyday that God is leading me out of Babylon, and cleansing my carnal mind of its teachings. Why would I wish to go back to that and study those teachings, their origins etc?
In my experience, people that attack Christianity by using these teachings about pagan traditions usually use totally spurious references anyway, so a lot of the information is very unreliable.
There's a new age philosopher in Britain that draws crowds of thousands in theatres lecturing on the supposed pagan traditions that Christianity comes from, and just about everything he teaches is total drivel. The man is a total fraud, and yet because practically no one that listens to him has a clue whats actually in the Bible, he gets away with it. And most of his reference material comes from the very books that are being suggested here. I'm aware of what these frauds teach in their books, and most of it is total rubbish.......so for me, that spirit has been tried.
Thank you for your comments, I'll focus my time and study on the scriptures thank you.
God bless you.
David.
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You know, I have been reading here and I think that perhaps there isn't a right or wrong answer regarding this topic.
I think that David is following his heart and his leading to not study these things.
But I also think that some of us are lead to study these things. Had I not spent the last year studying the history of the Catholic church and its very scary elements including their ties to Islam, my mind would not have been opened to Ray's teachings and be prepared to hear the truth about the church in general.
Perhaps God is preparing some of us to be able to speak about the origins of certain church doctrines (i.e. My BIL has his doctorate in Bible and is a pastor), while others of us won't need that information and will need to study elsewhere. Or it just isn't the season for them to study this.
We all have a different purpose and a different walk. :)
Many blessings,
Linny
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Well said, Linny, and very true :D.
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I read this book and found it totally informative about the history of pagan rituals that have made it into religious services. The book traces the religious practices that are accepted as the gospel truth in churchianity back to pagan worship. It is an eye-opener to those who are being dragged out of babylon by God toward the real truth. God uses what He will to break the power of religion...Amen!
Rest in the Lord, Barbara
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I was watching the Travel Channel on China. In Xian province they have discovered thousands of terracotta soldiers who were to "guard' the emperor in his after life! Sounds like Egypt to me.
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There's a saying that goes something like this: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. To make an informed decision one most have good information. Myself I like to know everything possible on the subject then make a well inform decision. Besides that it is very interesting to know where and how these pagan rituals got started. Also how they found their way into the man made christian doctrine.
Darren
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Darren, that is the doctrine of man; "There's a saying that goes something like this: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it." Let God deal with our history, which has always been nothing but evil. God is in total control of our past, present, and future, not man. Do a google search on this man "George Santayana" he seems to have his own version of Scriptures, and seems to believe in eternal torment in hell. He also seems to be responsible for the above "saying".
I totally agree and support all those that say we need to stick with Scriptures. I have no interest in that pagan garbage, and the only way Im gonna read or listen to it is from Ray, because I personally believe that he is much better grounded than most of us in Scriptures and he is much better equipped to teach and tell us what to look out for. I believe God brought us here cause he knew we were ready in every way for the Truth. Combined we have a lot of knowledge about babylone. Why would anyone want to go back into something Babylonian related after just coming out? Remember Ray is much further along in this Spiritual walk than most of us, and only by the Grace of God. If you wanna read that pagan crap that is your business, but please dont be telling people who just came out of that to go reading it. I believe we need to build a solid foundation from Scriptures,like Ray before we can start teaching others what to look out for. Im sorry but Im seeing alot of things on this forum that shouldn't be happening. But it is happening, just as God has planned. Why would that be? I love the Truth in the Scriptures, I have learned more from them in the short time Ive been here, then all my time I spent in babylone, and that was a long time. I feel I know enough about babylone, and Im sick of it, and now I wanna know even more about the Truth in Scriptures so as to get a good grounding in it like Ray. Seems there isnt a whole lot of support for those speaking the Truth as it is written. Forgive me God if Im wrong. If no one else can see it I must be wrong. Once again, I totally support and agree with those who believe we need to stick to Scriptures and Ray's teaching, cause im sure we all know and can agree he is very blessed, and has truly found favor with our Heavenly Father. If there be any doubt, maybe we should ask Ray what we should be reading. Remember if we are to be the Elect then we have to be in Unity, like minded. Im praying for you all.
1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
2Jn 1:2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
Deu 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
Jos 24:14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
God bless you all, I eagerly look forward to your responses.
Your Friend in Christ Jesus, George D.
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Folks,
On the study of paganism and pagan style Christianity I have studied a little over the years.
So, I want to state this carefully when I say that it is quite well accepted in some segments of society that a person needs to have doubts about their current practices or beliefs before they will become interested in NEW truth (new to them).
Perhaps that is why some of us are led to examine the background of these practices in order that we may confirm our observations and to be better able to stir up doubt in the minds of our friends or relatives who are still trapped in pagan Christianity. If true, since our motive is to help, that may or may not be a laudable purpose.
The question that comes to mind after reading all that has been presented is this; do we, any of us, need to stir up doubt or offer answers or offer solutions to problems that we see in other people or other organizations? Is it our job, since becoming
aware that we are called of God, to go out and CALL others? Or is it rather God's job to CALL others according to His will?
Are some of us perhaps, trying to do what God alone can do? Are we lovingly and yet impatiently trying to draw others into our intimate sphere in order to have those close to us become aware of what we are being taught spiritually?
I have learned interesting "facts" from the casual scanning of pagan sources, but very little of it was required to teach or share the truth of God's plan and purpose with others who were sincerely interested in obeying God and serving Christ. Those who are not already interested in obeying are probably not being called. It is more likely that they are just curious or worried by world events etc. and that natural, carnal, human curiosity may lead me to believe incorrectly that they are called by God.
I suppose the bottom line in my response here is that much of the information we can glean from study of pagan sources will not be helpful in CONVERTING anyone else, many of the authors of these books remain in "Christendom" perhaps trying to reform it and I don't believe that will happen based upon human effort.
Perhaps we should focus on learning how to make God's truth interesting, exciting and motivating as we prepare ourselves to share it with those who truly are being called. Then after they, the newly called, have learned God's plan, from scripture and the guiding of Christ's/God's spirit and study of bible truths which have been carefully constructed for sharing with newbies, they will begin to benefit from fellowship with us.
There are many neighbors and friends who truly NEED what we are learning, but we must ask ourselves whether NOW is the time for us to share, whether NOW is the time that God is calling them. We may need to keep in mind that what we now see and understand CANNOT be seen and understood by most others, even though they are our friends or spouses.
Just my view. And please realize that these remarks do not provide comprehensive coverage of the subject matter.
With love, indianabob
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The author and book mentioned may not be the best way to go about learning about paganism in christianity but that is no reason to write off that knowledge entirely. It's not always necessary for those that have left the churches to find out more reasons why churches are wrong but sometimes people need to know those things in order to not go back or to leave in the first place. Also the subject of paganism in the christian holidays is something that we must be aware of to leave. Many people will still revel in pagan traditions with no knowledge of what they are doing, I think it's better to find out. God has given us many sources of information and we all know that He works through EVERYTHING. A simple look in an encyclopedia will reveal the pagan roots of many practices. Since the holidays that we have now did not exist in the times that the scriptures were written they are not listed by name and revealed for what they are but we are admonished to "do not as the heathens do". Shouldn't we be aware if what we are doing is what the heathens do? I'm not saying to learn everything that they do but just compare what we ourselves are already doing to what they do. I'm not saying once you know those things that you need to study it further or dwell on it at all. God took me through a time where He was revealing many evils to me and many pagan things, He also enabled me to turn from them, which I could only do if I KNEW what they were. After I had that knowledge there was no more time or effort spent on the matter.
I'm not going to look to any other person on this earth for all the answers. If I rely on another man's relationship with God for my own then I am doomed, what if that man died and I couldn't ask Him questions or what if he was wrong? Jesus is the only One who I can rely on and I trust that when I pray to God that He hears me and that when I ask Him for knowledge He will lead me to a source that will give me that knowledge and He will show me the good from the bad and the lies from the truth.
I think whether or not we seek out that knowledge to educate others is an entirely different matter. I sought the knowledge for my own learning.
Once again I have no idea about the author or the book mentioned as I have no need read it to learn those things again, I am simply commenting on the subject of becoming educated about paganism in christian traditions.
If anyone is able to understand the scriptures well enough and hear God well enough to obtain knowledge about things that aren't directly stated in the scriptures then truly they have no need to look anywhere else for any knowledge but I don't believe that most of us start out with that ability.
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Well said Krista,
Especially about not looking to any other person for the truth when you have the source of all truth teaching you.
Isn't it interesting how Jesus puts thoughts in our mind to guide us. " a still small voice" I Kings 19:12 ,speaking tenderly as to a beloved child, Rather than with the trumpet or the whirlwind as he must do with the worldly. What blessings we have.
Bob
The author and book mentioned may not be the best way to go about learning about paganism in christianity but that is no reason to write off that knowledge entirely. It's not always necessary for those that have left the churches to find out more reasons why churches are wrong but sometimes people need to know tIhose things in order to not go back or to leave in the first place. Also the subject of paganism in the christian holidays is something that we must be aware of to leave. Many people will still revel in pagan traditions with no knowledge of what they are doing, I think it's better to find out. God has given us many sources of information and we all know that He works through EVERYTHING. A simple look in an encyclopedia will reveal the pagan roots of many practices. Since the holidays that we have now did not exist in the times that the scriptures were written they are not listed by name and revealed for what they are but we are admonished to "do not as the heathens do". Shouldn't we be aware if what we are doing is what the heathens do? I'm not saying to learn everything that they do but just compare what we ourselves are already doing to what they do. I'm not saying once you know those things that you need to study it further or dwell on it at all. God took me through a time where He was revealing many evils to me and many pagan things, He also enabled me to turn from them, which I could only do if I KNEW what they were. After I had that knowledge there was no more time or effort spent on the matter.
I'm not going to look to any other person on this earth for all the answers. If I rely on another man's relationship with God for my own then I am doomed, what if that man died and I couldn't ask Him questions or what if he was wrong? Jesus is the only One who I can rely on and I trust that when I pray to God that He hears me and that when I ask Him for knowledge He will lead me to a source that will give me that knowledge and He will show me the good from the bad and the lies from the truth.
I think whether or not we seek out that knowledge to educate others is an entirely different matter. I sought the knowledge for my own learning.
Once again I have no idea about the author or the book mentioned as I have no need read it to learn those things again, I am simply commenting on the subject of becoming educated about paganism in christian traditions.
If anyone is able to understand the scriptures well enough and hear God well enough to obtain knowledge about things that aren't directly stated in the scriptures then truly they have no need to look anywhere else for any knowledge but I don't believe that most of us start out with that ability.
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If you can accept that Paul's short 'sermon' on meat has any relevancce to this discussion (I can and do) I call to our remembrance Romans 14 without comment.
Rom 14:1 Accept the person who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion. 2 One person believes that he can eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 The person who eats must not despise the person who does not eat, and the person who does not eat must not criticize the person who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to criticize someone else's servant? His own Lord will determine whether he stands or falls. And stand he will, because God is able to make him stand. 5 One person decides that one day is better than another, while another person decides that all days are the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes a special day, observes it to honor the Lord. The one who eats, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God. And the one who does not eat, refrains from eating to honor the Lord; yet he, too, gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to honor the Lord; and if we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he might become the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 Why, then, do you criticize your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For all of us will stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "As certainly as I live, declares the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will praise God." 12 Consequently, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize each other. Instead, make up your mind not to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in and of itself. But it is unclean to a person who thinks it is unclean. 15 For if your brother is being hurt by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not destroy the person for whom Christ died by what you eat. 16 Do not allow your good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For God's kingdom does not consist of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy produced by the Holy Spirit.
18 For the person who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people. 19 Therefore, let us keep on pursuing those things that bring peace and that lead to building one another up. 20 Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food. Everything is clean, but it is wrong to make another person fall because of what you eat.
21 The right thing to do is to avoid eating meat, drinking wine, or doing anything else that makes your brother stumble or become upset or weak. 22 As for the faith you do have, have it as your own conviction before God. How blessed is the person who has no reason to condemn himself because of what he approves! 23 But the person who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not act in faith; and anything that is not done in faith is sin.
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I was watching the Travel Channel on China. In Xian province they have discovered thousands of terracotta soldiers who were to "guard' the emperor in his after life! Sounds like Egypt to me.
You are such a teacher :D :D :D
Amen to that older brother Dave. There may be more truth in that passage for this topic than we realize. I especially like verses 10-17, with 18 as the pivot. Okay, the whole passage is enlightening.
KristaD, I dont think we are relying on any man to learn anything. I believe we are relying on God to open our eyes to His Word, sometimes (actually more often) using a mere man. That's how He has been operating ever since. So I guess the trick is knowing which man He is using. I cant pretend to know that but I can say without a doubt that the man (or woman, looking at Priscilla in Acts and others) He may be using must speak according to Christ and His appointed apostles in His Word. I may be wrong, but I hope not completely.
All Glory To GOD
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Thank you Dave for your perception of the scriptures. Many here know of the pagan influence in standard christianity through many sources, including Ray's writings. The first I ever heard of "salvation of all" and the "reconciliation of all things" was from the writings of Frank Viola. Unfortunately, for the most part, you did have to "buy the book", which ironically enough seems to be more of a modern day pagan practice. I thank God for all He has revealed to me from whatever source and will not discourage anyone from reading other works or even listening to other speakers because of the scriptures you quoted. God has a reason and purpose for every word published, ultimately a good purpose:)
Phil 1:18-19
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
(KJV)
Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
If you can accept that Paul's short 'sermon' on meat has any relevancce to this discussion (I can and do) I call to our remembrance Romans 14 without comment.
Rom 14:1 Accept the person who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion. 2 One person believes that he can eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 The person who eats must not despise the person who does not eat, and the person who does not eat must not criticize the person who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to criticize someone else's servant? His own Lord will determine whether he stands or falls. And stand he will, because God is able to make him stand. 5 One person decides that one day is better than another, while another person decides that all days are the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes a special day, observes it to honor the Lord. The one who eats, eats to honor the Lord, since he gives thanks to God. And the one who does not eat, refrains from eating to honor the Lord; yet he, too, gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to honor the Lord; and if we die, we die to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that he might become the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 Why, then, do you criticize your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? For all of us will stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, "As certainly as I live, declares the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will praise God." 12 Consequently, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize each other. Instead, make up your mind not to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in and of itself. But it is unclean to a person who thinks it is unclean. 15 For if your brother is being hurt by what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not destroy the person for whom Christ died by what you eat. 16 Do not allow your good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For God's kingdom does not consist of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy produced by the Holy Spirit.
18 For the person who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people. 19 Therefore, let us keep on pursuing those things that bring peace and that lead to building one another up. 20 Do not destroy God's work for the sake of food. Everything is clean, but it is wrong to make another person fall because of what you eat.
21 The right thing to do is to avoid eating meat, drinking wine, or doing anything else that makes your brother stumble or become upset or weak. 22 As for the faith you do have, have it as your own conviction before God. How blessed is the person who has no reason to condemn himself because of what he approves! 23 But the person who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not act in faith; and anything that is not done in faith is sin.
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>>>and the only way Im gonna read or listen to it is from Ray
JakFr0s,
Just a word of caution. Be mindful in all things regarding God's Truth. Ray is a gifted teacher and because of his willingness to spend time on his knees and countless hours of prayerful study, we're also blessed as we read and learn through his insight into Scripture, however Ray is a servant of God just as you are. We all have to be careful to remember that first and foremost - God is the Source of all Truth.
I've been reading Ray's writings for about 5 years and I've found that the most valuable thing I've learned from him is to "seek God with all my heart". Ray's writings inspire me to search for God on a level I never knew existed, but Ray is a springboard, a launchpad to assist us as we each strive to find deeper meaning in God's Word in our own lives. God will work in you to the extent you're willing, just as He works in Ray. Ray's greatest gift is his hunger to know his Creator. We should all be so blessed.
This thread reminds me of what Paul said in his letter to the Church of Corinth:
1 Corinthians 1:10-17 (KJV)
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Jeff
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Someone may need to see "the crack in the foundation" of the organization before they are able/ready to see "the crack in the foundation" of their entire life! I say...if a book about pagan christianity is put in your path......use it to the glory of God, just like everything else! JMHO!
Gena--the warrior thingy was funny! :D
Joyce :)
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There's a saying that goes something like this: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. To make an informed decision one most have good information. Myself I like to know everything possible on the subject then make a well inform decision. Besides that it is very interesting to know where and how these pagan rituals got started. Also how they found their way into the man made christian doctrine.
Darren
Darren, people may well know a lot more about history than you give credit for. Having a detailed knowledge of spurious nonsense, which is basically what most of these books about pagan myths and traditions are full of, does not IMO equip one with the tools to guard against false pagan traditions and doctrines.
Studdying the scriptures, keeping the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and praying daily without ceasing for wisdom and understanding as Solomon did helps me steer well clear of any of these pagan fairy tales. I'm well aware of where a lot of the garbage in the church originates from, and I'm also very well aware, as I thought most here would be, that allowing that nonsense to creep into ones daily study and life will infect you if you are not well guarded against it. I wish this as no offense to anyone, but I believe its the height of foolishness to teach that one should learn about these things in order to guard against them. Surely one doesn't need to try heroin to be aware of its evil effects.
Again I refer to Deu 12:30. Doesn't seem to me that this scripture is just "friendly advice" but a clear concise commandment with a reason and purpose that God intends us to obey. This commandment in Due 12:30 is directly linked to the 1st 2nd and 3rd commandments of Exo 20.
To say to Deu 12:30 "well, you need to learn about this stuff so you know what its all about etc etc", well that's like saying one needs to read and enquire all about murder in order to understand why God said "You shall do no murder" in Exo 20:13.
The scriptures on this issue seem pretty clear to me, that's all I shall say on this matter.
God bless you.
David.
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Murder is a little different. We KNOW what murder is and are quite aware of how not to do it. If we don't know what the heathens are doing how can we know that we are not doing the same as them? I'm not at all saying to study any pagan things, just be aware of what they are. Yes the scriptures are clear that we are not to seek out the pagan things but I see nothing in the scripture that says we should be ignorant of what the pagan things are.
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Just a word of caution. Be mindful in all things regarding God's Truth. Ray is a gifted teacher and because of his willingness to spend time on his knees and countless hours of prayerful study, we're also blessed as we read and learn through his insight into Scripture, however Ray is a servant of God just as you are. We all have to be careful to remember that first and foremost - God is the Source of all Truth.
I've been reading Ray's writings for about 5 years and I've found that the most valuable thing I've learned from him is to "seek God with all my heart". Ray's writings inspire me to search for God on a level I never knew existed, but Ray is a springboard, a launchpad to assist us as we each strive to find deeper meaning in God's Word in our own lives. God will work in you to the extent you're willing, just as He works in Ray. Ray's greatest gift is his hunger to know his Creator. We should all be so blessed.
Jeff,
You hit the nail right on the head. something i am trying to teach my kids is to question everything--even question me telling you to question everything. Ray has alot of knowledge but even Ray tells you "dont take my word for, look it up yourself"
I was reading alot posts on here and i was kinda seeing what you are saying. I still question what Ray writes, but that dont take away from me having faith and faith that Gods is using Ray. I trust Rays writings, but we are told test the spirits. I thank God everytime i tests Ray spirit it passes!!!
In Jesus,
Anthony
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This may be a foolish,
but do you think there is a difference between inquiring after Pagan Gods,
verses,
researching our own faith/religion which all comes from Babylon,
to find the origins of rituals when they contradict the scriptures?
Is it me, or is it possible these two endeavors are not the same thing?
How could we have come to the knowledge of the "whore" unless someone studied these things?
Respectfully,
Brenda
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Sorry David this is where we agree to disagree. I believe that many of people do not know history. Yes, your right I don't give much credit to people knowing history. Just look at our leaders. Look where we are at. I don;t want to get political. What about the Bible How many people can you honestly say they know their bible? The history, (Old Testament). No, I don't have to use herion to know it's bad. I learned that it was bad through reading and gathering info on the subject. Just as I like to get the most info on any subject that I want to know about so I can make an informed choice. If I know where some of these pagan's traditions come from I can explain If the subject ever comes up. Knowledge is a powerfull tool to have.
Darren
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This may be a foolish,
but do you think there is a difference between inquiring after Pagan Gods,
verses,
researching our own faith/religion which all comes from Babylon,
to find the origins of rituals when they contradict the scriptures?
Is it me, or is it possible these two endeavors are not the same thing?
How could we have come to the knowledge of the "whore" unless someone studied these things?
Respectfully,
Brenda
We said dear lady! They are absolutely different. You said what I was trying to say but using too many words for :P.
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Hello everyone,
Just a few thoughts on this what's Pagan and not Pagan thinking, after spending twenty years in a Religion(JW'S) that dwelled and put through a microscope everything that may or may not be Pagan and Judging ones relationship with God as a result of how much an individual involves themselves with activities or celebrations that have Pagan Roots, ONE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT ALMOST EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD HAS SOME PAGAN CONNECTION; ART WORK, THE DAYS OF THE WEEK, MOON DAY, THORSDAY, TWI, SATURN, SUN DAY, FRIDAY-FREI; THE MONTHS OF THE YEAR, THE PLANETS AND STARS, ETC, ETC; it's almost unavoidable to escape some indirect influence from these Pagan influences to some degree, to be completely " No part of the World " as John says, we would have to leave the planet.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Right on Samson What about Tattoos?
I believe there is a scripture concerning not having them, due to their "pagan" connection to worshiping Other God's at that time. Whether you love them or hate them, if someone gets a tattoo today, most have no thought of God in doing it. If someone finds out latter in life the scriptures concerning tattoos does he need to repent of it? Well maybe if it was his ex wife's name, or some nude girlie's, ect....but not if he did it without the intentions of worship to a pagan God.
How many times did Jesus admonish the people that they were missing the point in the Law?
Luke 11:38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.
Reread Dave in TN Post and Please consider to meditate on it:
Can anyone see themselves in anyway as the Pharisee above, it is not the natural/physical things of this world that are evil, It is the Spiritual/Intentions of the heart. Be it Christmas Trees or Easter eggs or Weddings, or which day to celebrate the Sabbath, even some peoples position on wearing a Cross for jewelry,... those things are not inherently Evil or Good, it is the motivation of a Persons Heart Only!
I so respect the heart of those that want to follow God's word without compromise! Clearly you Love God! But take care, not to box God's Words in, and leave the his Spirit Out!
KristaD...you presented yourself beautifully as always. Unintentionally there are times when the kind and tenderhearted, get trampled over by others. You do not need to defend yourself to those that strike you on one of your cheeks. And I am not saying you need to be silent about it either! I just pray that God Blesses you with his peace that loves the person behind their hastiness to make a point! Kind of like when a two year old has a temper tantrum and you have to ignore it. Reminding yourself of the sweetness that also exists there in that same child! God will teach them, they usually feel shame....it is just their passion for the truth that trips them up, and really who can find fault with that?
Just my Thoughts,
Brenda
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Thank you, Brenda, I certainly needed that this morning and will meditate on those words.
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Can anyone see themselves in anyway as the Pharisee above, it is not the natural/physical things of this world that are evil, It is the Spiritual/Intentions of the heart. Be it Christmas Trees or Easter eggs or Weddings, or which day to celebrate the Sabbath, even some peoples position on wearing a Cross for jewelry,... those things are not inherently Evil or Good, it is the motivation of a Persons Heart Only
Brenda,
I have to disagree with you on that it if your intentions are good it dont matter what you celebrate and or do. Lets look at Saul before he became Paul. His intentions was to God was it not, but Paul found out later that that zeal he had for God (and he did all this and that stuff with the good intentions like persecuting the church) was nothing but dung and to him it made him feel like the worst sinner ever.
Alot of people have good intentions when doing something but it can be one of the most evil things. For example Catholics, (oh i got alot examples about them but,) they have the good intentions with confessing their sins, but look at how they do it--to their pastor who they call father. Jesus says call no one on earth our father we only have one Father. They pray for peace on earth who they feel that it can basically only come from their Pope. Even their sign of the cross.
Another example: you say christmas and easter right, think about this---Jesus said that these people worship me in vain. People celebrating these holidays no doubt have good intentions and want to worship God the right way, but if your not doing it the straight and narrow path way then its all in vain.
Christmas trees, easter eggs, even wearing a cross with Jesus on it has to be a form of idol worship---Do not make any idol in the image of Me (paraphrased)
i would back up all that i have stated with the scriptures but im at work without my bible or esword
respectfully and with love,
Anthony
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But also Brenda you are right, Dont judge people if they do celebrate and do these things. IMO i just think that this is one of things that makes the difference between part of the called and the chosen
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Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul. They also make no difference to Ray. He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcized or not. It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters. God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding. The mature grow out of these things. The immature are fixated upon them. Both are children of God.
For my little part, though I won't go point by point, I agree with David. This agreement is in spirit not in argument. My only admonition to David is to consider hard the taking of old covenenat law as the final word, and especially to placing that law on people Christ died to free.
I'm not fresh out of Babylon. I took my 20 years in the World. I am the prodigal returning. My Father has laid out a huge feast (much of it in Ray and B-T and His word opened up from that foundation) and I can't be bothered with 1002 reasons to be miserable, or 1002 reasons to bash somebody over the head, or 1002 reasons to gloat that I know more than my preacher.
Understanding the origins of these heresies is NOT wrong. But please SEE that it's NOT for everybody. Those strong in concience and strong in faith ARE free to do this. They will do it to honor God. That list does not necessarily apply to every reader of this forum or every poster to this thread. Judge your own self. Can you 'learn' such stuff without fear of picking up belief? Can you do it without seeing it as a form of Chirstian pornography--titillating material? Can you do it with a fully maintained spirit of humilty? Can you do it to honor God without thought to self? Can you do it while not leaving off the weightier matters? Are you led of your Lord to do this?
Here's how I judge myself. I can't do ANY of the above. I KNOW that I know I am not alone in that. My concience is strong, and my faith is too. I'd heard years ago about Church Steeples being remnants of pagan Phallic symbols. I don't know whether or not that is true (and for the record, I don't even CARE, so I'd appreciate nobody directing PROOF at me). I could walk into a steeple, climb the tower, ring the bell, eat a pork sandwich up there, wash it down with a little wine or beer and not be sinning. Paul says I AM Blessed! Those with a weaker concience couldn't. My responsibility is for THEM. At the very least, I'm not going to be inviting them on my church steeple picnic. :D
I don't NEED to know, I don't WANT to know. Our Father has WAAAAY more important work to do in me to clean out the filth of the pigpen, to help me into my new robes and rings and to recieve me as His son. He may have other work for you to do. All I can say to you is, be careful where you step.
OBrenda, I appreciate your post. I really believe you 'get 'it'. IndianaBob, we are well together in spirit (not just in argument). I'm finding it a rather safe place to be there. Love to ya.
Brenda, if thy tatoo offend thee, cut off thy arm. You may be the only person to laugh at that.
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Hi Anthony,
Your right I have to admit,...I could have worded my comments better when using the word "intentions". It is very true that most evil done by mankind, has been done by their warped sense of what is good! And your using Paul is a good example to find some understanding. Believe it or not, I honestly believe that we all actually agree in this post! Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
Which is what I believe Krista and some others here have tried to express! It is the "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" that they experienced when they came to understand that their particular religion had a foundation from pagan rituals. That is one of the ways that God lead their steps to the truths taught here! (I am just not prepared to questions Gods methods to bring his will about!)
And as Ray has taught us pay attention to the WORDS in a scripture....I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere. And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?
My point about the Christmas trees, etc. As yet....I don't believe I'm wrong.
I just don't see how wearing a cross around my neck, enjoying a pretty decorated tree, wearing a wedding ring, makes me any less or more righteous.....my righteousness comes not from natural things, or even what I do or don't do....but only from Christ.
So I respectfully disagree it has nothing to do with the chosen!
If we are speaking of sacrificing children, ect....that is entirely different, (that is an action)
I don't see evil in things like the pagans did.......But I do see it staring back at me in the mirror!
I do appreciate your passion Anthony, and I also admire it.
Brenda
P.S. to Dave.... ;) ;D
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Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 4:17
Ponder on that for a while.
CIY
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Hi Brenda,
Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.
Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
Right on! I agree totally. Now apply what you just wrote to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit). Their man made, right.
I don't think anyone is promoting inquiring after other Gods!...like enrolling in a monastery of the "Goddess of the Sun" somewhere. And If anyone would be so foolish to do such a thing, who is to say God can't Shine a "Bright Light" down and knock them off a donkey?
Amen Brenda
Anthony, those outward things made no difference to Paul. They also make no difference to Ray. He's said more than once that he doesn't care whether people keep this day or that, are baptized or not, are circumcised or not. It IS the higher things--the spiritual law--that matters. God will deal with each individual at the level of their own understanding. The mature grow out of these things. The immature are fixated upon them. Both are children of
Dave
Sorry if i gave the impression that i was talking about baptism and all that stuff. I was really just talking about christmas and easter, those holidays, not the Holydays. (i don't know but i think Paul was stating this about the Jewish Holydays, not the pagan holidays, about observing special days) The communion of the catholics was just for the "intentions" thing.
CIY
The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right.
Add also Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)
To all
I also agree that we need to know what these pagan traditions were so we can come out of that Babylon fully and refute/expose it if it contradicts. you cant do that about something you don't know, right. Like Ray has said how can you know up if you never had a concept of down. How can you know whats true without knowing what is false.
Anyway respectfully to all
Anthony--p.s the same to you Brenda. I admire you passion too! :)
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Hi Anthony. Only the first paragraph of my post was directly in answer to you.
I have no doubt that knowledge of heresy is important to understanding the complete Gospel of the Kingdom. Heresy itself is important to the Gospel of many called, few chosen.
Where my spirit bristles (not my anger) is in the impulse to impose an inferior and ultimately powerless Law on Believers attempting to follow a superior and all-powerful law...the Law of the Spirit of Christ. Brenda doesn't wear a cross or put up a tree because she is breaking the law of sin and death. Brenda is free to wear a cross or put up a tree because knowing the law of the Spirit means she knows these things mean NOTHING! They have no power over somebody who is free. They only have power over those convinced that these things have power. If she did not wear a cross or put up a tree, it would add NOTHING to her relationship with Christ, and might even bring on it's OWN temptation to sin--self-righteousness, lack of faith, vanity, boasting.
That latter part goes with my earlier warning to those who think they are (or are now ready to be) teachers. Without doubt Ray IS. Others may well be. Others most surely are not. Judge yourself.
Maybe I sound like some sort of Libertine. But try to understand that I have never been among people coming out of highly legalistic religious traditions. So this 'strain' is new to me. My observation is NOT that these legalistic traditions were wrong-headed and must now be replaced with RIGHT legalism. My observation is that it was wrong in a Christian context to ever replace the Law of the Spirit with such inferior stuff, and it remains wrong.
I have way more to learn than I have learned already, and am open to correction (as always) but I'm not about to exchange my 'blessedness' for any law that hasn't been fulfilled by Christ. Even if I knew all 1002 pagan origins, they have NO power over Christ in me. They are dead. They mean nothing. Their purpose is served and spent on me. Prayers for those still in Babylon for whom thier purpose is not yet dead.
This topic has occupied my mind for two days now, and I'm glad it has.
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Hi Anthony...I hope we are becoming quick friends here! :)
Sorry if i seemed strong in voice in that post, i wasn't trying to be that way and i wont be that way among fellow brethren---whew I've never said brethren before.
Don't be Sorry about being strong in voice, that has been admirable in all Men of God! I was being very sincere when I said I admire your passion!
Paul's actions as Saul were Sinful. It is my opinion that it was the same passionate character God placed in Paul (when he was called Saul) that made him the remarkable man of God he was. What brought the change was "TRUTHFUL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" understanding the error in his religion and man made traditions.
Right on! I agree totally. Now apply what you just wrote to what you are thinking about christmas, christmas trees, the cross, etc. (you are already wearing the cross in your heart and mind. Why do you need to show anyone this proof?! I and probably everyone else here can see/feel it in your spirit). Their man made, right.
YES!....I agree with you....if I wear a cross around my neck to tell others I'm a christian, or think of it as a charm for protection it is an Idol! However when I see a cross around someones neck or in a poster...it reminds me of the most important thing we can do in this moment, Surrender to what is the will of God! (as Christ Prayed not my Will) I don't have a cross necklace, I certainly don't need one, or even desire to. And at the same time I'm not resistant to wearing one! And I don't think I am better than someone who does, or is it any indication one way or another to how many stripes I will be getting ;D
CIY The more i ponder on that verse it proves to me that what I'm saying is right.
Add also Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Couldn't this also apply to appeasing to the world with its pagan traditions and holidays/holydays? (this verse has nothing to do with reading up on them)
So Anthony if the "World" is the Enemy, what did Jesus teach us about how we are to feel about our Enemy?
Matthew 5:43
You have heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you have?
Please forgive me, as I can be dense sometimes....I didn't actually understand CIY position with the scripture he shared ??? Sorry CIY
James 4:15
You do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead you should say, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live-and do this or that." But you boast about your proud intentions. All such boasting is evil. Therefore, anyone who knows what is right but fails to do it is guilty of sin.
Other than the obvious to me, It would be better to use the word "Heart" instead of "Intentions"! Thanks :)
1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
That's all I was trying to share! Please forgive me to those I've bored... :-\
Brenda ;D ;D ;D
P.S. Darren I do agree with you history teaches us a valuable lesson about Mankind, and the Scriptures teach us about the Sovereign Nature of God!
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Dave,
I dont know what to say, I want to say you are right---and indeed you truly are. But the other half wants to say you only half wrong (im not saying that i know more or anything like that b/c i dont. not in the least bit). And then i want to say your right again, because you are. Confusing huh, yeah me too :-X :-X :-X.
You are right Dave, I agree about not imposing the powerless Law on believers. The Law of the Spirit of Christ is far superior, so now my question is once you follow the Law of Spirit of Christ, is it still okay follow these holidays and other such things. These things have no power over me that i know of, because once i learned their origin and learned the truth of them I was set free from observing them. I really never liked christmas, trying to observe the Sabbath and the Holydays or especially anything that had anything to do with the catholic church. But thats just me. Once i learned the truth on these things, i was set free from them. So TO ME i am totally free from them and TO ME the Spirit convicts ME not to follow these things that i have mentioned before.
Thats where Col 2:16-23 comes in.
But here's another question that maybe you can help me with Dave or anyone out there--- Once one is following the Law of Spirit of Christ is it okay to observe any of those things because no one can judge you on it and if that is the case then wouldnt that make Col 2:16-23 so very different from person to person? So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you? It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus.
Dave, great post. you have me struggling on this one. I find scriptures to support both arguments. Thank you for making search the scriptures trying to compare spiritual with spiritual. As for now i can only pray for God to show me the full Truth
Brenda,
Of course, i love the conversations on here between you and me and everyone.
you posted your reply while i was typing up this one and that was a great post, and right also. I think i stated it above (i've been typing this one post for like a hour now), great scriptures. You have me too rethinking what i think is the full Truth. Hopefully my eyes will be fully opened
Looking forward to yours and anyone elses response
Anthony
ps if i made no sense on this post im sorry, my mind is getting flooded with so much now.--And thats a good thing :D
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Mark 7:13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
v. 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
v. 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
v. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Think about what Jesus is saying here, "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him." I think this is what Paul is saying also.
Rom 14:14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
So what I think this is saying is when you have the Spirit indwelling, then you are free to do 'anything'... because the Spirit will always be guiding you. Also if you mess up then won't the Spirit be there to lead us to repentance as well. So we should listen to the guidance of the Spirit in whatever we do.
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
v. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
v. 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
v. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Amen, Kat. The scriptures you shared are a good match with Anthony's and Romans 14.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" I'm assuming you mean the things mentioned in Colossions. It's interesting that the chapter you referenced starts with the two most important 'observances' of the day...circumcision and baptism. It's here that Ray gets scripture for his emphasis on 'circumcision without hands and baptism without water.' Spiritual law recognizes both these observances as shadows and 'prophecies' of their true meaning.
With circumcision, it is very clear from scripture that Gentile believers were no longer required to be circumcised in order to be accepted in the Faith. In truth, they never were, but it took a while for that truth to sink in and to be recorded in inspired scripture. Clearly, with this observance, it was "very different from person to person" in practice.
These days...if a Jew were to come to Christ fully, he would have to know that circumcision is not required...but the deed was done when he was 8 days old and can't be undone. The rest of us can come to Christ without ever being circumcised in the flesh. BOTH have to be circumcised in Spirit, however, to come to a full knowledge of Christ and have His Spirit in them. And women were never subject to circumcision and THEY can come too. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision in the flesh makes one Holy or not Holy. Only circumcision in the spirit is of any value whatsoever.
Now suppose a man wanted to 'cover all the bases' and observe the physical ritual even with an understanding of the Spiritual. It's possible for a man of any age to be circumcised...I suppose it's even possible for a man to be 're-circumcised' (OUCH). You ask, ""...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It's the word 'okay' that is hanging me up. It's not a sin to observe, but why would a man want to?
I can think of a few reasons why he MIGHT want to. There are surely others.
1. His faith is weak. He 'understands' but he just can't quite believe that Christ is sufficient.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It's okay, but such a shame. His sin is lack of faith, not observing or not observing
2. His conscience is weak. Maybe he feels he deserves to make this sacrifice considering how low and base he is.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" It is better for him to observe than to not observe, just as it is better for a man to marry than to burn. ;)
3. His Doctrine is wrong. He's been convinced that this rite is necessary, or more Holy, or whatever and he knows no better.
"...is it okay to observe any of those things?" For him, it would be a sin NOT to observe, because he believes in his heart this way.
But what if his reason is: I will be circumcised to prove my superiority over these sorry/sinful/inferior 'other' gentiles? Is it okay then?
Do any of those sound like they would come from a man who is mature in the Spiritual Law?
I don't believe we 'have it'. I believe we are in the process of 'getting it' more and more and more. Very different from person to person.
Paul started the 'chapter' with the MOST important observances of the day. He goes on in the verses you reference to mentioning other things 'in this light'. ...Matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day. Was any of this more important than circumcision or baptism?
"Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day." These are all shadows too.
I'll admit to a complete ignorance of how these 'festivals and new moons' are made important in some churches, though I'm more familiar with 'sabbaths' and food and drink. The only possible positive value I can see in any of these observances, beyond being the shadow of things to come they were desigend to be, is to maintain a 'community'. Does that sound familiar?
But if "He (who is puffed up and boasts of his spirituality) does not hold on to the head, from whom the whole body, which is nourished and held together by its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that comes from God." then why remain in that community?
And there's another picture of the body of Christ...different members, different offices, different gifts, same head--Christ. "Very different from person to person.", in my opinion.
All I want to add is the reminder that the New Covenant is NOT according to the Old. It's superior, and different by that definition alone, as well as in other ways. That's good news for some of you coming out of these legalistic churches, I'm guessing. For me too.
"So what would be the ultimate commandment--- To each their own and let noone judge you? It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus."
Dude, this one was easy!! ;D
Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said to him, "'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." 38 This is the greatest and most important commandment. 39 The second is like it: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments."
And then He launched into parables...and we all know what THAT means.
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Amen Kat...Those Scriptures are Powerful and as they say speak volumes!
Some other Scriptures in Romans to what we are speaking of...
Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, brought about by the Spirit, not by a written law. That person's praise will come from God, not from people.
Romans 3:8
Or can we say-as some people slander us by claiming that we say- "Let's do evil that good may result"?
They deserve to be condemned! (Sounds like some of Rays e-mail responses)
Hey Dave this might answer your question to: is it okay to observe any of those things?"
Are we Jews [keepers of the law] any better off? Not at all!
For we have already accused everyone, both Jews and Greeks, of being under the power of sin.
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What I'm thinking is we do not need to concern ourselves with what the other person is doing. As we will not have to answer for somebody else, only ourself.
Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
v. 11 For it is written:
"As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."
v. 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
v. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
It is the Spirit in those that He has chosen who will bring the unity of the body. The spirit shows us what we should do.
Eph 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
v. 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
v. 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
v. 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--
v. 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
v. 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
All these physical things we are going through are temporary, they are to teach us spiritual lessons and do not matter overall. That's why Paul said "there is nothing unclean of itself." We need to be spiritually minded, not dwelling on the physical.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Beautifuly put together Kat,
Having a "Motto" is probably carnial, especially when "Who God Is", is so Vast.
But these truths you wrote bellow just jumped out at me!
It is the Spirit in those that He has chosen who will bring the unity of the body. The spirit shows us what we should do.
All these physical things we are going through are temporary, they are to teach us spiritual lessons and do not matter overall. That's why Paul said "there is nothing unclean of itself." We need to be spiritually minded, not dwelling on the physical.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Brenda Dave and Kat,
You guys are rightand great posts by all. You guys got me "soul searching" and praying to God for the Truth, but let clarify my last post because this is really is got my spirit stirring and i want to know the full Truth.
i came out of a legalistic type of babylon, who showed the paganism in the holidays of christmas and easter and the such. Once i did more resarch on these holidays God open up my eyes to see just how much paganism is in christmas, easter, valentines day, halloween etc. So in the legalistic type of babylon they didnt want you to observe the holidays but to observe Gods Holydays. I was like okay that makes sense. then after God opened my eyes after reading Rays writings I learned i didnt need to observe the Holydays either. so thats where my question comes in and that scripture someone posted comes in---
Jas 4:17 and Jas 4:4
and
Once one is following the Law of the Spirit of Christ and knows the truths behind all these things whether they be things from the Bible (Holydays) or things with their origins in paganism (the holidays), why would you want to observe ANY of those things?
the ultimate commandment thing i stated wrong, Dave your of course right on that, but i was refering to subject we're talking about here. Is it To each their own and let noone judge you on what you observe or not observe whether from the Bible or something with its roots back in paganism mixed in christainity? It cant be that broad in my honest opinion there must be a fine line drawn by/made by Jesus on observing these things. We know about Gods holydays whether or not to observe them, but christmas and the like...hmmmm?
Dave nice post on reasons. I personally am free from those things and dont give it any power. I dont observe any of these things only because its my personal choice. It doesnt make in any better or worse than anyone who does either of them. It doesnt add one iota to my spirituality. the only times i observe christmas and the like is when i am being respectful of whoever invites me to. This is what Paul did on the Sabbaths and such to preach the Gospel if even inquired of him.
Ultimately i feel like you guys are right. We are free to do these things. Free-- without limit is what that means right, but we arent all the way free because we still have to follow Jesus' commandments. So there's a limit. So I guess you're right until you learn the truth right? I guess the his Spirit will convict you either way and as long as what convicts you and your not breaking it them you are free from it. thats just my honest opinion.
what do you guys think?
With love and patience
Anthony
Ps-- Like you im just searching for the Truth. And you guys got me meditating on this heavy. Thanks ;)
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Hi Anthony,
I can see what you are saying,
Once one is following the Law of the Spirit of Christ and knows the truths behind all these things whether they be things from the Bible (Holydays) or things with their origins in paganism (the holidays), why would you want to observe ANY of those things?
That I believe is the ultimate goal of a believer... BUT. As you also stated,
the only times i observe christmas and the like is when i am being respectful of whoever invites me to.
So there is circumstances that you have that may cause you to be involved in these things to some degree, right? Every person's life is a set of intricate and complicated circumstances and just like you may have a situation that gives you an exception to what you would see as the best thing to do, other may too. We do not know what is in each person's heart and why they are doing something.
If the Holy Spirit is indwelling, then I believe that a person would have a hard time getting all wrapped up in participating in these worldly holidays or Holy days (I was in WWCG for 15 yrs, so I've done a lot of Holy Day observance). If they did I think the Holy Spirit would lead them to recognize how worldly it was and they would eventually want to stop.
But some may be just like you and only continuing to participate because of respect for their loved ones feelings. So for those, the participation would not be to satisfy a worldly lust and if their heart be in the right place, it would be meaningless and not a sin?
I'm saying these things so that you can see why I say it does not matter and we should not judge one another in these matters. We do not know all the in's and out's of anybody's situation, so why judge? I think maybe this is what Jesus was telling Peter when he asked about John.
John 21:21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?"
v. 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat.
In my heart i knew you guys were right, Dave and Brenda too. The more i replied to you guys post the more truth you guys kept showing me on the matter until all the scales were shead off. I just wanted to make sure i present my argument as thorough as possible so i could get clear understanding. And thanks be to Jesus he used you guys to show me the truth.
Thanks again
Anthony
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Anthony. This is over my paygrade, so all I can do is the best I can.
As far as I know, Jesus never gave a commandment concerning pagan holidays. His ministry was mainly to Jews following (to greater or lesser extent) the laws of moses and the leviticial laws, and their own religious 'tradtion' laws as well, etc. Those he encountered who were NOT jews He always compared to Jews (and favorably). The ones who kept these laws BEST (the Scribes and Pharisees) were the ones who Christ found to be the WORST.
Concerning Christ's commandments, let's stick with the weekly Sabbath and hopefully other parellels can be drawn. He Himself was accused of breaking this Law by doing forbidden work on this day. Did he sin? Of course not. Did He break 'THEIR' Sabbath? Absolutely. But He didn't break God's Spiritual Sabbath. In his explanation to the Pharisees, it might be said that He not only broke their Sabbath but He smashed it it to bits. It might also be said that He pointed the way toward the True meaning of the Sabbath and didn't end it at all, rather extended it from one day a week full of 'Thou shalt nots...' into seven days a week full of 'Thou Shalts...'
That sounds great, but neither the OLD Sabbath or the NEW Sabbath can be kept in the flesh. Christ prophecied a day when His Spirit would be living in us and He accomplished this (among a universe of other things) by His death and resurrection. Now, we are to die to ourselves and be raised in Him. It's no longer us living, but Christ. Even this can't be accomplished by our flesh.
If Christ is living in us (more and more and more, as I believe) then Christ is able to do all the things that He is....love, holiness, peace, joy. I am fully persuaded that I cannot do these things. I have evidence from my OWN life and don't even NEED scripture to know that I am not capable of any unsullied good work and AM capable of the worst sin imagineable. Whatever good there is in me, IS Christ's spirit by definition. I have to die more and more and more (as I understand it) so He might live. And He knows the true and righteous and profitable meaning behind ALL the shadows of law and prophecy. And He is teaching the spiritual, true meaning and will continue to teach it to us.
The Law of the Spirit is not a set of regulations. The Kingdom of God is the kingship of God.
I know you didn't want to hear more about holy days, but as Kat said, it's not the physical we should be concerend with, it's the Spiritual. That IS the commandments of Christ.
As for Pagan influence in Christian holidays, in the times of the Apostles when the scriptures were being written they were struggling with this too. Now the Gosepl was open to those beyond the Jewish tradition and outside of the enclave of Jersusalem and environs. Greeks, Asians, Romans, Africans and all kinds of people were coming to believe. They brought their own 'traditions' that clashed with the Jews. They ate unclean meat, they had their own false prophets among them, they had a way of thinking that didn't include the centuries of exposure to and teaching of the Jews and the Old Testament. That sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Again, I'm over my paygrade here, but it seems to me that Rom.14, your references in Collosians, Kat's and Brenda's all are dealing with this. In dealing with it, they are also all pointing to a Higher Law. There is more than one 'commandment' flowing through this vein in the New Testament. Some seem aimed at the 'pagan tradition' believers (primarily, DON'T SIN), some seem aimed at the 'jewish tradition' believers (primarily DON'T Judge what isn't sin or peole who aren't sinning). Both 'groups' are under both of those commandments...we are One. In a sense it's been like OUR discussion...different traditions reaching for a common and higher Truth.
Now we're stuck with Christmas and the like, a holiday celebrated by Christians, and those without Christ as well...both sinners and Heathens. Heathens? Absolutely. I've been in Buddhist countries that celebrate Christmas when most of them couldn't tell you the difference between Santa and Christ. That's how far Christendom has come.
But really, we can scratch those distinctions. God's 'distinction' in his house is between the Elect and Spiritually Minded and the Called and carnally minded. As far as I'm concerened, the carnally minded can celebrate Christmas all they want. At least it's one day a year that they might have a thought for the coming of Christ into the world. If I am invited, I'd go because none of that stuff has any power over me. I don't like Chritmas either, and it has nothing to do with 'paganism'. It has to do with commercialism and 'enforced' good spirits. I like to feel good when God wants me to feel good. I want to remember the coming of Christ every day, and ultimately have no need to remember because He is in and with me every day.
If others can turn this holiday on its head and make it worth celebrating as a special day--with or without tress, mistletoe and all those other powerless trinkets--then I'm committed to not judging them for what isn't a sin. I don't believe it's a sin any more than Samson mentioned calling today Wednesday is a sin.
If others can teach the church without sin, then more power to them and God's blessings. If I had oppurtunity and ability, I'd rather use the 'IN' that christmas gives and preach Christ to the heathens.
The Spirit of Christ is love and other things that flow out of love. If your love is a concernd warning, then give it. If it's a bit of fellowship with loved ones in the midst of dead and powerless trinkets, then do it. You'd walk over glass for them, I believe you can walk under mistletoe.
What you yourself do is according to your faith, concience, and Doctrine. As we put all of that under the Law of the Spirit and the Kingship of God it is up to HIM to lead us. The Head leads, not the hand or the foot.
I've already identified myself on this board as an a@@, and a dumb one as well. So for the love of God, don't do what I say.
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Hi! Anthony and all.
My first impression is that this is a lure to buy the books and other junk. They don't give any idea of what the contents of the books are, which makes me wonder whether it is worth my while pouring my money down the drain Why not let Benny Hinn have it instead he needs it to build another mansion for his big brother JESUS when He decides ro show up. It appears as though this site is just another of those promotions for another form of belief. Unlike Bible-Truths which gives you everything for free including membership try and get the same from Frank Viola and he'll tell you what you can do in no uncertain terms.
That's the difference between money grabbing and an honest freewill offering. Best to stick where you are and give your money if you have a surplus above your needs to Ray from whom you are getting the TRUTH for the first time in YOUR LIFE? Don't you think he deserves it for all the obvious hard work he has put into it for our benefit, more than those charlatans?
Come on now leave them alone and be right, we have God's truly inspired servant we don't need anymore misfits or we may as well go back to Egypt/Babylon.
It's time to drop this thread as it just doesn't belong here.
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Roy UK,
It was not my intention to lure anyone into buying a book or other junk. Nor did I intend to start a thread concerning Christian liberty. One does not need to purchase a book in order to read it. I am sure, as adults, we are familiar with the public library system! Is one not available in the UK?
I simply asked if anyone had read the book and gave an opinion about the book. The book in question has useful information for those who want to know more about "church" history and where it got certain practices from.
These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon. As far as Mr. Viola telling us what we can do in no uncertain terms I have no knowledge of.
Why the apparent animosity toward Frank Viola? Did you ask him to send you a book?
Do you get paid to do a job? What if you didn't get paid, would you still do the job or would you find some other way to feed your family?
The reason that money is charged for the purchase of a book is that it cost money to produce a book. And yes, the Author(s), publisher, printers and others get a small part of the purchase price.
I am sure Larry Ray Smith doesn't begrudge anyone for charging for there time or work.
Larry Ray Smith has chosen to do this for free. I'm quite certain he has been led to do this. I am also certain he did not do his carpentry job for free or on the basis of donations. Nor did he start BT on the basis of donations. He started and funded it with his wages. I think also the wages of a few others too. ( I'm not entirely clear on this part though).
If one wishes to give toward the efforts of Larry Ray Smith, then by all means give. I know he will truly appreciate it.
Please explain why you think this thread has no place here. Even though it was not my intention to start a thread about Christian liberty it was none the less discussed. God used it to speak to AK4 and I'm not sure how many others.
Love in Christ
B
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Hi
Yes Brian is right God was using them to help open my eyes.
These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon
I Couldnt have said it better. Some people who has read some of Rays papers shouldnt just take his word for it. they need to found out if he's telling the truth or not--on scripture and on pagan things.
Roy i think as long as we are all talking about the Lord, every bit conversation is ok as long as we are staying in like mind, keeping an open mind for the truth, and helping each other in the Word. And i know you believe that too. Yes it can be taken too far but i dont think it has reached that yet in this thread.
Peace
Anthony
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I have to agree, this thread has opened my eyes to some of my faults as well. I think it has been carried out respectfully and regardless of whether the book that was mentioned in the first post is something we should read or not this thread has been very helpful to me and I thank all of you that have contributed. :)
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It is midnight, and I just got home from sharing this very issue with a young women which lasted several hours. Thanks to each and every post, in this thread (not forgetting God) I was able to explain with better clarity and less error, Than a week ago.
Like Krista, I am also very appreciative of everyones input!
As we continue to learn,
Brenda
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Roy UK,
It was not my intention to lure anyone into buying a book or other junk. Nor did I intend to start a thread concerning Christian liberty. One does not need to purchase a book in order to read it. I am sure, as adults, we are familiar with the public library system! Is one not available in the UK?
I simply asked if anyone had read the book and gave an opinion about the book. The book in question has useful information for those who want to know more about "church" history and where it got certain practices from.
These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon. As far as Mr. Viola telling us what we can do in no uncertain terms I have no knowledge of.
Why the apparent animosity toward Frank Viola? Did you ask him to send you a book?
Do you get paid to do a job? What if you didn't get paid, would you still do the job or would you find some other way to feed your family?
The reason that money is charged for the purchase of a book is that it cost money to produce a book. And yes, the Author(s), publisher, printers and others get a small part of the purchase price.
I am sure Larry Ray Smith doesn't begrudge anyone for charging for there time or work.
Larry Ray Smith has chosen to do this for free. I'm quite certain he has been led to do this. I am also certain he did not do his carpentry job for free or on the basis of donations. Nor did he start BT on the basis of donations. He started and funded it with his wages. I think also the wages of a few others too. ( I'm not entirely clear on this part though).
If one wishes to give toward the efforts of Larry Ray Smith, then by all means give. I know he will truly appreciate it.
Please explain why you think this thread has no place here. Even though it was not my intention to start a thread about Christian liberty it was none the less discussed. God used it to speak to AK4 and I'm not sure how many others.
Love in Christ
B
Hi! Brother Brian.
Did you read my post correctly? Where was the animosity I showed? If a simple comment is taken for a show of animosity then simple conversation becomes very difficult indeed. I realize printing of books takes money and a quick visit to the site showed that they have approximately 36 books for sale at varying prices. And yes, in case you didn't know the UK is just as advanced as the USA and we do have public libraries with all the modern facilities. Perhaps your education would benefit from a short visit.
For your information, I for one, happen to be housebound and have not been beyond my front door in the past two and a half years, so a public library is not of much use to me as you may appreciate. We all know that man is not infallible and Ray is no exception that is why we have the Scriptures which warn us to put our trust entirely in the Holy Spirit. These are the Scriptures in case you missed them: "These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him." (1Jn.2:26-27). And, “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (Jn.14:25-26)
I may not agree with all that Ray has to say but that doesn't distance us from the fact that we owe him all due respect and loyalty seeing that he has opened our eyes to so many of the truths that we were totally unaware of whilst in Babylon. Hence he is more than a much respected teacher to most of us here, he is also a dear friend. As a friend I call him Ray not Larry Ray Smith, why have you left out the Mr?
Now to the printing cost of the books. I have a mountain of very valuable material, more valuable than refined gold, which will take me a lifetime to read and truly understand and absorb. This was posted absolutely FREE of cost for all takers and it too, no doubt, cost Ray a lot of money. You can download it and print it out FREE and even I in my housebound state can avail myself of it FREE. Can you now see the difference, brother, I shan't believe you if you say you can't as even a fool can see it.
Why do we want to know the history of Babylon, I thought we had come out of it and are trying very hard to get rid of their evil doctrines, do we need to waste money on learning about something we want to get rid off?
We have to get our priorities right, Ray is struggling for finance but that site from what I saw of it isn't and the reason is obvious, fools are financing it as they do Benny Hinn. It's a bigger band wagon than the move "Paint your wagon". We have found treasure more valuable than gold here for absolutely nothing so where should that book money go in all honesty? It's like getting bread from the baker and paying the butcher.
Amazing! .....Amazing! as dear old Ray would say.
That was the point of my post. Idle curiosity killed the cat is an old saying I've heard somewhere and the knowledge to be obtained from this book is not edifying, we want to go forward not backward. Babylon is HISTORY. "There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." (Pro.14:12 & 16:25).
I'm sorry brother, I still say that there is nothing to edify in this thread and it needs dropping, as far as I'm concerned it has been. With the listed number of membership it is a disgrace that Ray should be struggling to keep it on air for our benefit and those yet locked in the darkness of Babylon.
I hope this answers your critique of my post.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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I have read the book in question and others by this author and find them informative on the history of religion as we have it now.
If anyone wants to purchase and read books from anyone that is their business.
I see no problem with Brian's original post, only that it probably should have been moved to off topic discussions. After the original post the topic sort of veered off topic and some of us put words in Brian's mouth.
I think this is a good place to stop this thread.
Blessings
Craig