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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Gina on May 27, 2015, 06:01:03 PM
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Hi Everybody,
This is one of the most important questions that comes up periodically on the forum and the members are not always in agreement. So, in hopes of clearing up the question, here is an excerpt from an email question and answer from 2007:
Source: http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html
Dear Quentin: I will try to COMMENT in your email.............
Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
COMMENT: I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
What do you MEAN by "cease?" One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what? A different person? A different being? The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc. But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God." Why do you ask that? Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God. Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to: walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.
[emphasis added]
Ray says, "But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God [when He became incarnate]. Why would you ask that?" I love that.
Anyway, I hope that helps someone here.
:)
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Hi Gina, here's a few more from the FAQ http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,15921.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.msg24692#msg24692 -----------
Dear Elizabeth:
I'm afraid this is one of those questions that it would first take ten pages to explain what we mean
by "God." What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF?
On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING." Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
I'm sorry, but nearly 99% of all questions asked of me in emails are entirely too long for an email. I could easily spend a week or two researching and writing on this very question you ask. The Bible is not nearly as "simple" and Christians claim that it is. It will probably take me 60 pages to explain Matt. 5:22 and Matt. 10:28 in my upcoming Installment on Hell Part D. The more difficult Scriptures and concepts (as the one you just asked me), are tied to every other Scripture and concept in the entirety of the Bible. People have no concept of absolutely how PRECISE one must be in his words and explanations of these things, or it will contradict some verse somewhere. Maybe God has given me an ability to make difficult things understandable and seemingly "simple." Nothing, however, is SIMPLE in the Scriptures. If it were, not every major doctrine of Christendom would be UNscriptural. Hope you understand.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ----
Dear Christopher:
Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."
[1] "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).
[2] "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]" (Rev. 1:08).
[3] "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).
[4] "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
[5] "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).
[6] "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).
One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God." Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2909.0.html ----------
First, John 1:1 (I checked this verse in three translations including the KJ, and each one read word for word the same) says that the word was God. Does this mean Jesus was God?
COMMENT: Yes, and Jesus still is God.
Did Jesus cease to be God when he became incarnate?
COMMENT: I really dislike questions like this. It's kinda like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
What do you MEAN by "cease?" One day Jesus WAS God and the next day Jesus WAS.......what? A different person? A different being? The Bible tells us that Jesus came in the "likeness" [similarity,not exactness] of
sinful flesh, but didn't sin, and was emptied of His internal powers so that He would be subject to death, and to
live a life in the flesh that we are to emulate, etc. But I would never use the term "He CEASED to be God."
Why do you ask that? Do you think Jesus "CEASED" to be God. Jesus did all that He did in the flesh through and by the power of His Father. But, having His Father by His side, He could do anything He wanted to: walk on water, heal the sick, conquor the world, raise the dead.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6907.0.html ---------
Dear Mike:
Jesus Christ HAS a God and Father: God the Father does NOT have a God. (II Cor. 11:31).
God greater than Jesus (John 14:28).
Jesus will always be subjected to His Father, while His Father will never be subject to Jesus, so the Father is BOSS! (ICor. 15:27-28).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6484.0.html -------------
Dear Scott:
Who said that "Jesus isn't equal with God?" Jesus is in the very IMAGE OF GOD:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I Cor. 4:4--"...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God..."
Heb 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of His person.."
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus, however, is NOT His Own Father, and will always be in subjection to His Father:
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him [His Father] that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html --------------
Dear Christopher:
"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.
If One is:
THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)
POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)
HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)
Then that One IS GOD! Jesus filfills all three of those
statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why
Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5928.0.html -------
Dear David: In the Scriptures (I don't refer to all "Bibles" as the Word of God, but rather the Scriptures), "The Word of God" can mean the actual spoken words from God (Matt. 4:4); the inspired word of God coming to the prophets (Ezek. 25:3); the written Word of God (Jer. 30:2), the Word of God in ANY form (Heb. 4:12); and the Personification of God's Word (Jesus) (John 1:1-14).
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ------------------------------------
Who and What is Jesus Christ?
Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).
"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).
"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).
"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)
"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).
"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).
"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).
I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.
Is Christ God? YES HE IS!
"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).
And also:
Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).
Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!
"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),
"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),
"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"
"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).
So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.
Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
Jesus explains this verse for us:
"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."
Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:
"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).
"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).
"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father’s Who sends me" (John 14:24).
"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).
"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).
These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.
Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ’s part.
Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
v
v
[Ray Replies]
Dear Brett:
I actually answer this in my paper on the trinity. Yet I get asked it continually. The reason is, I believe, that most are not willing to accept the answer I give FROM THE SCRIPTURES.
I am asked: "Is Jesus GOD or isn't He GOD?"
When I answer: "Yes, Jesus IS GOD," they are not satisfied with that answer they want to know: "Well then, as there is only ONE GOD, and if Jesus IS GOD, then Jesus must be THAT ONE GOD INCLUDING THE FATHER, and so by deduction, JESUS IS THE FATHER.
I'm not saying you, Bret, but there is no end to the times I get this posed to me. And yes, there are those religions that firmly believe that JESUS CHRIS IS GOD THE FATHER.
When the Pharisees accused Jesus of blaspheming because He said He was "The SON of God," Jesus reminded them that their own scriptures state that, "YE ARE GODS."
"I have said, YE ARE GODS; and all of you are CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH" (Psalm 82:6).
"For WE [Believers] ARE members of His [Jesus] body, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they TWO shall be ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and THE CHURCH" (Eph. 5:31-32).
"That they ALL may be ONE [Who?--ALL. How many?--ONE] as you Father are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be ONE in US... And the glory which You gave to Me I have given them, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE" (John 17:21-22).
This IS the Scripture that Jesus quoted. They didn't accept what Jesus said, and people will not accept what I say.
I'll try once more:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH" (Gen. 2:24).
How many people?--TWO. How many flesh?--ONE.
There the Scriptural answer!
"...that they may be ONE, even as WE [Jesus AND His Father] ARE O-N- E"!!!
HOW many Persons? Jesus & Father--TWO. HOW many GODS?--O-N-E G-O-D!!!
As a "husband and wife" ARE ONE, and "Jesus and His Church," ARE ONE, so also "Jesus and His Father," ARE ONE.
I don't what more I can say or how many times I can say it. I hope this helps.
God be with you,
Ray
WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? - 2007 Nashville Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
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Yes, that's where I found what I posted.
Is Jesus "man with us"? No, Jesus is [was and will be] "GOD with us." I love that too. Thanks for helping out, Kat.
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Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
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Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
Hi Rose,
Can you please explain where it says in the bible that Jesus or anyone inherited adam's sin? I see that death passed to all for all have sinned but I don't see where sin passed to all. Christ became our passover because He was the spotless lamb without blemish. He had no sin in Him and died for all sin for all time. Here are the verses in consideration that I can think of:
Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many [NOT 'all'] were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5: 21 For he hath made him to be sin [OFFERING] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Gal 4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Hebrew 2: 8-10
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrew 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Here is the verse you reference in Jesus being refered to as a man;
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Here is Mary refered to as the mother of Jesus;
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Now as for Jesus being the son of Mary, I don't see a problem with that. It says that He was born of her in Matthew. Isn't one the son of the woman that gives birth to him?
Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi, Octoberose
Bodies (arms and legs and feet and hands) don't "offend" or commit sin without something causing them to do so. It all starts in the mind/heart. It is not out of the dust of the earth that come sin and murders and evil desires, it is OUT OF THE HEART. (Matt. 15:19) When the bible speaks of the "sinful flesh" it means the carnal mind. Jesus Christ didn't have a carnal mind. He had the mind of His Father in Heaven, seeing how He was conceived not by sperm but of the Holy Spirit of God, the Father in Heaven. Therefore, Jesus Christ had the MIND of God His Father in heaven. And even Jesus said, "I always do what pleases My Father." And that is why Paul said, "Let this mind be in you."
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Here is where I got what I was saying:
Let's pay close attention to just one statement from Jesus that should help everyone to see that this is figurative language that teaches us a great spiritual truth. Jesus did not say what most Christians think He said.
Jesus did not say: "And if your eye offends you, repent of your lust or God will cast you into an hell of immortal worms and everlasting fire which will never stop burning."
But that is what most Christians think Jesus meant even if He didn't actually say it. Nonsense.
"And if your eye offend you..."
This word "offend" means: "to entice you to sin" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).
Now then, is it even "literally" possible for a physical organ of the body to be the cause of a moral or spiritual sin? No, it is not possible. Lusting after a woman does not have its origin in the eyes but rather in the heart.
"...whosoever looks [with the eyes] on a woman to lust [in his heart, not in his eyes] after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."
The lust of the eyes is itself a "figure of speech." We "look" with our eyes, but we "lust" with our heart. And the "heart" in Scripture virtually never means the organ of the body which pumps blood. The "heart" in Scripture is the inner most man, the seat of emotions and passions, conscience, and moral character. No physical organ of the body has even one of these spiritual attributes. More proof:
"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
Did you notice that "looking on a woman to lust after her" IS adultery, and it comes not from the eyes, but from the heart. So then, is this teaching in Matt. 5:27-30, literal, or figurative? It is figurative.
Source: http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
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And thanks for your input and post, Alex.
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Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
Well we know that Jesus was born of Mary as a flesh and blood human being and in so being referred to Himself a lot as the "Son of man."
I am thinking that the reason people believe that Jesus would have "inherited the sin of Adam," is because they misunderstand Scripture and believe that "for as in Adam all die," (1Co 15:22) means that because of the erroneous notion of the 'fall of man' that transferred/inherited sin to all people.
Rom 5:12 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned.
Their faulty thinking is that if Jesus was born of the sinful flesh, then He had to be sinful as well... they just do not understand and other Scripture confuse them more, like what Jesus said...
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Yes flesh is weak and our carnality lends to inevitable sin, BUT there was a big difference in Christ, He had the Spirit without measure and that made Him God and far beyond the pulls of the flesh.
John 3:34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. (ESV)
Being born a human He certainly was of the flesh, but not carnal minded in any way. It's an oxymoron to say He was God in the flesh and carnal, that's as impossibility.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
We have a good many Scripture that plainly state Christ Jesus had no sin.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
1Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
v. 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
Isa 53:9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him." (CLV)
1John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi my family. I know I don't post much, but the subject has come up that I think about a lot. Was Mary really the mother of Jesus or just a vessel to house Him in? I know in my studies on this, Jesus never calls Mary His Mother, Not in the KJV. There might be a Bible that does, but anyway Jesus only calls Mary woman. John 3. The wedding in cannan. When Jesus was on the tree He told John behold your Mother and told Mary behold your Son. I don't have a problem with her being Jesus' mother, I just wondered why He did not address her as His mother. There was another time when Jesus was told that His mother was wanting to talk to Him, He said who is my mother and He looked around and said those who do my Fathers will. I think that is the way it went. I can't remember the chap. and verse..
Jesus always addressed His Father as My Father, but when it comes to Mary Jesus addresses her as woman, He never says my mother or mother while talking to her or others. This is just something I've been thinking about and wondering about as well. As I said I have no problem with Mary being Jesus Earth Mother. Just wondering why that's all.
Virginia Miller
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Hi my family. I know I don't post much, but the subject has come up that I think about a lot. Was Mary really the mother of Jesus or just a vessel to house Him in? I know in my studies on this, Jesus never calls Mary His Mother, Not in the KJV. There might be a Bible that does, but anyway Jesus only calls Mary woman. John 3. The wedding in cannan. When Jesus was on the tree He told John behold your Mother and told Mary behold your Son. I don't have a problem with her being Jesus' mother, I just wondered why He did not address her as His mother. There was another time when Jesus was told that His mother was wanting to talk to Him, He said who is my mother and He looked around and said those who do my Fathers will. I think that is the way it went. I can't remember the chap. and verse..
Jesus always addressed His Father as My Father, but when it comes to Mary Jesus addresses her as woman, He never says my mother or mother while talking to her or others. This is just something I've been thinking about and wondering about as well. As I said I have no problem with Mary being Jesus Earth Mother. Just wondering why that's all.
Virginia Miller
Hi, Virginia,
That is an interesting question. According to Jesus:
33 ... “Who are my mother and my brothers?”
34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!
35 For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.”
I'm not suggesting the reason Jesus didn't address her as "mother" (in public, at least) is because Mary didn't do the will of God.
People, especially in the Catholic Church system, make a big deal out of her because her title suggests that she was somehow ABOVE Him in status. The focus should always be on the GREATER One, and He knew that. She didn't have a problem with it. Mary was not offended probably because she knew that she as His "mother" should not usurp His authority. Besides, maybe because Joseph had died so early in Jesus' life that Jesus was made the "man" of the house, but that's total speculation on my part.
People unfortunately subconsciously make the false assumption that Mary (being Jesus' "mother") formed and shaped Him instead in God, His Father, all because she fed Him some milk, but the fact of the matter is, she didn't really even know who He was.
27As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!”
28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153
On the other hand if He were just a human being and He didn’t come from anywhere, except His mother’s womb. Then someplace between coming out of His mother’s womb and going out and spreading the gospel, He had to find out who He was. Who told Him? When was He told? He couldn’t have very well been told when He was 12 years old.
At the Passover time, when Jesus was 12 years old they went up to Jerusalem and they were there for the feast. And it came to pass after they left they looked around in their company and Jesus wasn’t there. So they went back to Jerusalem, apparently they were gone a whole day and then they had to come back another whole day and then they walked around Jerusalem a whole day. They went to all of the places that they thought He might be and finally they found Him at the temple.
Luke 2:48 And when they saw Him, they were amazed: and His mother said unto Him, Son, why have You thus dealt with us? behold, Your father and I have sought You sorrowing.
By the way that word “sorrowing” is the identical Greek word used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where the rich man said I am being “tormented,” it’s the same word. So I don’t think Mary was being burnt with fire.
v. 49 And He said unto them, How is it that you sought Me? Wist you not…
“Wist” we don’t use that word anymore. Wist you not that we should be soon eating lunch.
v. 49 …Don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?
v. 50 And they understood not…
They didn’t know who He was, Jesus is 12 years old and His own parents didn’t know who He was. Remember Simon wanting to see the newborn baby, before he died, he knew who He was. The shepherds they were taught who He was. He’s dealing with those of the law here in the temple and there was the angel of the Lord and the heavenly host.
I mean all these people dealt with Jesus and they didn’t know, His own parents didn’t know who He was. He was just a little boy that got left behind and they had to go back and get Him. He said “don’t you know that I must be about My Father's business?”
So at 12 years old He wasn’t told, He already knew who He was! Not only did He know that His Father had business for Him to do, He was already doing it! He said I’m already about it, I‘m already doing it, at 12 years old. Well when did He know who He was?
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I believe Mary did the will of God. She was appointed to carry our Saviour in her womb and deliver Him to the world.
Maybe this is how she is His Mother, because she did the will of our Father. I have no idea why Jesus didn't call her Mother in public. I was just expounding on what Rose wrote, because I had some of the same thoughts. Mary was very blessed to be able to carry the Son of The Living God, even thou it caused her great persecution, But Our Father saw her though,as He does us all.
With Love, Virginia Miller
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I believe Mary did the will of God. She was appointed to carry our Saviour in her womb and deliver Him to the world.
Maybe this is how she is His Mother, because she did the will of our Father. I have no idea why Jesus didn't call her Mother in public. I was just expounding on what Rose wrote, because I had some of the same thoughts. Mary was very blessed to be able to carry the Son of The Living God, even thou it caused her great persecution, But Our Father saw her though,as He does us all.
With Love, Virginia Miller
Yes, of course, by the power of God she did what she was appointed to do. God made sure of it.
This world and the way it works is all about woman. When Adam took one look at Eve he fell for her so hard that when Eve disobeyed God he didn't have the you-know-what's to stand up to her and say, STOP WOMAN -- YOU'RE DOING WRONG! (Obviously, had he, we wouldn't have a human race.) He had her on a pedestal. He worshiped her instead of God. The lesson here is that Jesus didn't WORSHIP HIS MOTHER. He didn't look to HER WARM EMBRACE for comfort, seeing how He Himself is the Comforter.
The world we live in worships females, mothers and women and their beauty literally and figuratively speaking, and that is why the world is in the mess it's in. And women love it. They are addicted to the point that the beauty industry is a billion/trillion dollar industry. Men put women on pedestals and worship them for the express purpose of being worshipped and adored in return. And women gain POWER from that "love" and the attention that men give them, and end up hurting the man, because the man learns to look to the woman instead of their Father in Heaven for their sustenance. But women CAN'T sustain a man. They can't because women are not the source of love. GOD is love. The only thing that the love of a woman can do is turn men into a wimp or a bully because it SEPARATES men from the source of Truth and true Love - God.
Jesus was not a "mama's boy." He looked to His Father in Heaven for EVERYTHING. And that is the lesson that Jesus was giving. He didn't disrespect her at all. She had a job and place and she was not to be viewed as greater than her Son. And I believe there is a scripture that says that she will be rewarded in some way for her role and her obedience, but not in this life - not to be worshipped as the woman / mother of God. How absurd.
Does that make sense, Virginia? :)
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Hi Gina, I think you might have misunderstood my thoughts. I do not think for one minute that Jesus disrepected Mary in any way. My thoughts were did He consider Mary to be His mother? Everyone called her His mother, but when Jesus addressed her, He called her woman. Our Saviour died for her as well as everybody eles. He loves her just like He loves us. I don't think calling her mother would put her above God or make Jesus a mama's boy.
As for women being the down fall of men, I think it goes both ways if you are not with the right person. We all have a knack for hurting each other in some way, fashion or form.
I know Jesus was all about His Father, as we all should be, but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught? As you pointed out, she did not know who Jesus was even though she got pregnant without a mans help. I do hope i have made myself clear. I would hate it if someone thought I was disrepecting my Savior in any way. That was not the reason I brought up my thoughts on this subject. In Love , virginia miller
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Not at all, Virginia. I'm sorry if you thought that is what I was getting at. I was just "buying up every opportunity," as it were. :)
I'm sure He knew what Mary's role was - considering how HE MADE HER for the express purpose of birthing Him. But even still, He came out of His Father in Heaven. Did he consider her his mother? I'm sure He loved her very, very much. More than you could possibly know. I mean no disrespect but look closely at how you framed your question:
but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught?
The emphasis of her being his mother you seem to put ABOVE being another disciple, or as you put it "just" another disciple, as if it makes a difference to God -- Who is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS.
I love Mary's example. She said, "Do what He says." That tells me, Mary did the Father's will and for that reason He considered her His mother (and disciple).
I hope that helps and clears up the matter.
Have a good day.
Gina
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Hi Gina, I think you might have misunderstood my thoughts. I do not think for one minute that Jesus disrepected Mary in any way. My thoughts were did He consider Mary to be His mother? Everyone called her His mother, but when Jesus addressed her, He called her woman. Our Saviour died for her as well as everybody eles. He loves her just like He loves us. I don't think calling her mother would put her above God or make Jesus a mama's boy.
As for women being the down fall of men, I think it goes both ways if you are not with the right person. We all have a knack for hurting each other in some way, fashion or form.
I know Jesus was all about His Father, as we all should be, but my thoughts were did Jesus consider Mary to be His mother? Or did He consider her just another disciple to be taught? As you pointed out, she did not know who Jesus was even though she got pregnant without a mans help. I do hope i have made myself clear. I would hate it if someone thought I was disrepecting my Savior in any way. That was not the reason I brought up my thoughts on this subject. In Love , virginia miller
Hi Virginia,
This may tie into the fact that God is no respector of person. Jesus is, was, and will be God. He emptied Himself of some of His divinity so that He could take on the form of a man and die, so that he could be subject to death, but he still retained that mind of God. There is neither male nor female, jew nor greek, bond nor free, for we are all one in Christ. This would have included how Jesus saw marry. Just because she gave birth to Him, doesn't mean that she is somehow any more important to God than the rest of us. We are all unique and special to God and will all bring something that He doesn't want to exist without in the kingdom, regardless of whether our flesh and blood gave birth to His flesh.
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more [after the flesh].
Put on the mind of Christ. Have the mind of Christ. So then who is His mother now? Those that are His brothers, His sisters, His mother etc... are those that do the will of His Father--Who worship the Father in Spirit and truth. Therefor there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ AND who walk not after the flesh BUT AFTER the spirit.
In the relative Marry is the mother of Jesus physically but in the absolute from God's perspective, who is no respector of person's, a mother or brother or sister of Christ is the one who does the Will of God. Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all. I can't see it any different for Christ who is our example and who as existing we too are existing.
God bless,
Alex
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Well, here's a question that goes along with this subject. Is it the belief here at bible truths that Jesus was the physical son of Mary, or was Mary just a conduit for the person of Jesus? In other words, did God provide both the male and female spectrum of Jesus? The question comes because there are some who believe that if Jesus was physically "of man" then he inherited the sin of Adam, and we know there was no sin in him. I always took that to mean that He committed no sin- but we are born with Adams sin also. However, Jesus is referred to as "the man, Jesus Christ". So, I am in a quandary about this.
Hi Rose,
Can you please explain where it says in the bible that Jesus or anyone inherited adam's sin? I see that death passed to all for all have sinned but I don't see where sin passed to all.
Hi Rose,
I agree with Alex on this one.
I remember Ray said something about we don’t sin because of Adam's sin, we sin because we choose to sin and here is the reason why we all sin.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope .
Also these scripture too,
Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave.
Rom 7:15 I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate.
Rom 7:16 And if I don't want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it.
God Bless you Rose, see you on the other side. :)
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One more thought: God's word says, "They do honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me."
The first Adam fell down and worshipped a woman after he exclaimed how much he adored her, and he became one with her in the lust of the flesh, and then turned around and blamed her, and vice versa...
Jesus the Last Adam all through His life honored Mary, not with his lips, but by obeying His Father in Heaven.
Jesus honored Mary as His mother, of course He did. Didn't He admonish the Pharisees for NOT honoring their parents? They honored their parents with their lips, but their hearts were clearly far from them.
Had He gone around addressing her as "my mother," His words: "Who is my mother, brother and sister..." would have, I don't know, made no sense. Besides, it matters not what you say, it's what you DO. "Why call me Lord, and not do what I say?" Moreover, He was HER Lord. It just seems obvious that since He knew Who He was and Whom He came out from that His addressing her as "mother" would have put her on a pedestal of sorts, but the truth is everything she was came from Him. In addition, going around addressing her as "mother" would not have been fitting for Him as He was her Almighty God, Everlasting Father.
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I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'. So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for her.
Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.
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I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'. So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for her.
Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.
Hi Rose,
Psalm 51 is a reference to the mother's sins. The baby is not sinful and the baby is not sin. Sin is the transgression of God's spiritual law.
God didn't make us sinful. He made us spiritually weak. He subjected us to moral futility by reason of our weak hearts. We are marred in the hand's of the potter and then made a second time in a fashion that is pleasing to Him. God doesn't make us sin and God tempts no man. We volunteer to sin due to our weak condition (the beast/carnal mind/the antiChrist) and the influences of satan. It takes God's spirit to do good. Christ was full of the spirit and grace so He didn't and could not sin. Sin was the inevitable result of man's weak condition and inibility to obery God's higher spiritual laws. This by the wisdom of God.
A baby will not be an elect because a baby still has to undergo that process of being made new. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. Death and then judgement. Die now voluntarily and be baptized into Christ's death so that you can be in the likeness of His resurrection or be thrown into the fire and die in the next age. Either way, you will be conformed into the image of the Son.
At the time of Jesus' birth, Mary was a carnal woman. So Jesus was concieved in Marry's sin but that doesn't make Him sinful or sin. We sin until the day we die so every child will be concieved 'in sin,' but if the spirit of God is in us then sin won't REIGN in our bodies. Jesus didn't sin, He had no sin in Him, and He didn't have a carnal mind. He put on this weak vessel that is the human body so that He could be a faithful high priest who is tempted in every point and so that He could be killed. He became our passover lamb. Ray pointed out that the lamb at passover didn't die because it was sin or because it sinned but because is took the place of those who did sin because there is no remissions of sin without the shedding of blood.
The reason you need blood is because a will is not binding until the person who writes it is dead. So Jesus Christ sealed the new covenent, The will of God, with His death. With His blood. So 'The Will' ('The New Covenent') is now in effect.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Gina and Alex, I really appreciate the feed back on my thoughts about Jesus and Mary. I can let my mind rest a litttle now, because as you both pointed out, Jesus would never show disrepect to His Mother in any way, which I didn't think He did. Alex you made a good point by saying that Jesus treated Mary the same as others, because we are all the same to Him.
The reason I spoke of Mary as Just a disciple, is because that is what I consider myself to be while I'm on my way to being an elect of God, that is if I am one of the Few, which I hope I will be. My thoughts on this was just thoughts, whatever Jesus called His Mother was said Out of Love and respect.
I thank you both for your insight and encouragment. I will go on seeking and sharing my Love for Jesus.
I love you all my BT family.
With Love, Virginia Miller
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I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
Hi octoberose, I don't think I would consider a newborn babe sinful... it's just learning how to think and it's cries are because it needs something, not out of disobedience. And there are severely mentally handicapped people who really are unable to comprehend right from wrong, I don't think they are capable of sin either. Certainly Christ died for all sins, and accountability will not be neglected of anybody, but for all those babies and the mentally ill, His sacrifice will apply as they need it and they will in the next age. So then it is because He was the firstfruit in resurrection, so now they too can be given a new life in the age to come.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
v. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Here Paul is trying to explain that there will indeed be a resurrection from the dead... some just found this teaching very hard to believe. But what Paul is saying is we have assurance of that, because Christ was raised up as a proof and guarantee of it.
So if babies and the mentally ill actually do not need His sacrifice yet, they certainly need His resurrection. Christ was the firstfruit to be resurrected and everybody else will eventually be raised "in his own order" (1Co 15:23), because we know God can and did resurrect Him and will raise us too as He said He would.
Little babies will be brought back to life and raised up in a peaceful world and taught righteousness and the mentally ill will be healed and given a new life in the age to come. I believe this because God is merciful and His judgments will be perfect.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.
Isa 16:5 In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness."
Psa 116:5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another from the altar saying, "Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I knew this would lead to a conversation!
Psalms 51:5 " Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Part of my quandary is this- a baby is still sinful and he has done nothing willfully wrong. Surely Christ died for him too. He will be held accountable too. I don't get the how. But that is correct, right? But Jesus is different because he was not 'conceived in sin. My head hurts with this. Didn't Ray say that a baby would not be in the elect, because they had not learned or obeyed or had the wisdom of the elect? Something like that.
So, Kat, you're saying that since death is brought to us by Adam, sin was introduced because God made us sinful, so what Jesus' mortal body 'inherited" was that he lived in a body and became a man.
I can wrap my head around that.
In reference to Virginia's comment - as I understand it, calling a woman Gune' - the greek for woman- could be a sign of respect or just how a woman was addressed. Kind of depended on the context. But Jesus did do as his mother wanted when he turned the water into wine even though it was not 'his plan'. So, that was respectful. And then Jesus 'gave' Mary to John as a mother , gave John to Mary as a son. So some of his last breaths were in caring for her.
Gina, I love your passion. I love, love the story of Jesus as a 12 year old and his parents frantically searching for him and he's 'doing his Father's business". What I believe God led me to about that was that Mary and Joseph were so shocked by his answer because They Had Never Told Him Who He Was. How do you mention that to a child that his true father is the Creator of the Universe? They had not told him, But The Holy Spirit did. I'm always amused by people who think that Mary forgot who Jesus was and didn't understand what he was saying. I am the mother of three regular kids and I can tell you the when and where and how I had them. Mary cherished all these things in her heart and didn't forget a thing. She had just never told Jesus who He was. I'm sure she knew God would in His time.
Hi Octoberose,
That blue part I put there was from one of Ray's papers. I didn't write that myself. They were amazed because of where they found him -- in the temple. They did not understand this statement: "Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business?"
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was with depravity when I was travailed in birth, And in sin when my mother conceived me." (Concordant Literal Version)
That's probably not the best rendering of that verse. Babies are conceived and born INTO the world AROUND them which is filled with sin and depravity. It doesn't mean that the baby itself is filled with sin or depravity at the time of conception and birth. Doesn't even mean that the mother (or father) were sinning during the baby's conception, necessarily. It just means sin was already in the world OUTSIDE, ready and waiting so to speak, that the baby would be subject to and fall prey to.
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Deuteronomy 1:39 provides a good clue as to babies and young children.
39- Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Joel
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Good verse. I was also thinking about this verse:
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity (frustration/futility/sin/depravity), not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay (death) and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
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Hi Gina and Alex, I really appreciate the feed back on my thoughts about Jesus and Mary. I can let my mind rest a litttle now, because as you both pointed out, Jesus would never show disrepect to His Mother in any way, which I didn't think He did. Alex you made a good point by saying that Jesus treated Mary the same as others, because we are all the same to Him.
The reason I spoke of Mary as Just a disciple, is because that is what I consider myself to be while I'm on my way to being an elect of God, that is if I am one of the Few, which I hope I will be. My thoughts on this was just thoughts, whatever Jesus called His Mother was said Out of Love and respect.
I thank you both for your insight and encouragment. I will go on seeking and sharing my Love for Jesus.
I love you all my BT family.
With Love, Virginia Miller
And I like thinking about your questions and searching for the answers. I am always thrilled when I am blessed when God shows me the answers or slowly reveals them to me over time. I love this stuff. I get so wrapped up in these threads sometimes I could go all day without eating or drinking or even thinking about it. I could stay up all night too and never get bored. I literally have to drag myself away from the forum sometimes otherwise I wouldn't get anything else done. I totally see how Ray could get into responding to emails and go all day without a bite to eat. And what Jesus meant when He said to his disciples when they said, You have to eat something, Master... "I have food to eat that you know nothing about." I mean this is good stuff! So please, keep your questions coming, Virginia, everybody.
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The Deuteronomy verse is lovely, Joel.
I know you all are right. I know God made us spiritually weak and he tempts no one. But the responsibility of the state we find ourselves in is His. He doesn't tempt but made Satan to be the tempter, to be the liar. So, I guess I'm laying that all on Him. I know this life is about the experience of good and evil and it's how God chose to teach us. And the cost to Him and to us is high.
The question of 'original sin' is not one I've read a lot about so I was battling with it. I was raised Baptist so old things come back once in a while. ;)
So, going along a little more with the original intent of this thread- when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead?
I know these seem simple, or maybe very complex, but it's where I am and you all know me well enough to know that I'd rather ask and seem foolish than not ask at all.
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Me too Gina. I am so hungry for the word that I could sit here all day talking to like minded people, but there are none around here. I love when I come to the forum and some are have a conversation about what we are learning, or learning something new.
I do have another question about the New Testament being written in Greek. Did Jesus speak mostly Greek? I know He knew all languages, and understood all, but I was going to a sacred name church at one time and they convinced me that Yahshua was Jesus' real name. My husband wasn't into the name at that time, but he is now and I am not. I don't want to get to heavy in this and I know Ray has went through this at one time, i just want to share with my husband what i am learning about it. He thinks we are still in the old testament, so Jesus would be called yahshua or Yahweh, because joshua took the people to the promised land after Moses' died. Joshua in hebrew is Yahshua, But didn't Christ come in Moses' place, not Joshua's?
with Love, virignia
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So, going along a little more with the original intent of this thread- when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead?
Wow, these are all really intense questions. Was Jesus changed from what He was ( meaning ..... ? ) to who He is now (meaning .... ?)
Jesus hasn't changed at all. He is God. Was God. Always will be God. He was a Rock at one point. He was the burning bush at another point. He was unrecognizable to the women who came looking for him after he was resurrected.
But does it really matter what form or shape He takes on? We no longer know Him after the flesh (OUR flesh, not His flesh). See, we no longer think of Him in terms of what our eyes see.
Jesus Christ is the Word and we are supposed to live according to the things He spoke.
If we're still thinking of Him according to the flesh and concerning ourselves with what He looks like physically, I'm going to be totally blunt (not to be mean) to steer you back on the right track: you are still a babe in Christ.
What matters is HOW HE LIVED. We are saved by His Life. That means, we practice doing those things and thinking like He did.
It's like I offered you by PM, it's all about practice.
We can either be practitioners of sin and become real good and proficient in sinning. Or, we can practice living Godly in Christ in order that we "become perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.
See? So let's start practicing with little baby steps on doing what Christ said. Because when we do that, then we will SEE Him as He IS. Guaranteed.
Does that make sense? You will see Him when you practice what He commands.
The problem we have is, we are physical beings and we have these five senses (taste, smell, sight, hearing and touch-- ha ha, I had to write that out just to be sure -- yeah, they're are five senses, for sure ) that really get in the way of spiritual things.
That which is first is not spiritual, but that which is PHYSICAL. People think that means: That which is first is physical, and after that the spiritual and we do away with everything physical. No, I don't believe so. I believe we will be so spiritually / heavenly minded that we will be better able to experience physical things in their proper context. Jesus ate fish after He was resurrected. He had no problem digesting it apparently. But so of what significance is that? He had nail holes in his hands? As a sign for those who doubt.
Before we become spiritually minded in Christ, we are so outward focused on those things we can see with our physical eyes, and naturally wonder what He will look like, INSTEAD OF PRACTICING WHAT HE SAYS. We can't help it though, but we should start PRACTICING not being so outwardly focused so much. Just practice with little baby steps.
It's amazing how far and fast you get when your mind is preoccupied with spiritual matters. The only way I can describe it is, it's like when you're driving in your car and you get to your destination but don't remember how you got there or remember seeing any of the physical landmarks along the way.
And you've been there, I'm sure you know because all of us here for the most part are practicing walking according to the spirit, aren't we?
Just keep doing that and you'll see Jesus as He is. Ray said so. He said, when you start doing what Christ commands and living how He lived, you'll understand (perceive/see) a LOT.
All that Jesus Christ is isn't a "body," so stop thinking of Him in those terms. Think of Christ more in terms of energy/life-giving spirit that sets us in motion when we meditate and PRACTICE His words. In that way, we really do live, and move and we have our being in Him.
I hope that was of some help to someone besides myself -- it wouldn't be any fun if it were only for me.
Thanks for asking those questions. I really hope that helps some.
God bless!
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And Octoberose, this is a prime example of your walking according to the spirit and not after the flesh: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,16110.msg144866.html#msg144866
How so? It's plain to see. You had BOLDNESS in Christ in speaking the truth in the midst of an evil and PERVERSE generation.
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And I had another thought: After Jesus was resurrected, He told Mary Magdelene "Stop clinging to me for I have not yet ascended to my Father."
And as long as she did that, He couldn't go away and if He couldn't go away, the Holy Spirit (Comforter) couldn't come. So maybe we are sort of doing the same thing in a sense. By continuing to cling to the "physical body of Christ" with what we know of our five senses, do we somehow shortchange ourselves of the Comforter? I don't know, maybe. I mean, I still believe Christ is coming back for us. But until then, apparently we have to go through a major growth period where our spiritual senses are exercised and sharpened so that we learn to trust God in faith, rather than by what we can see. I'm sure we have a lot to learn. But we'll get there. God will get us there.
What I noticed about Ray was that he really, I mean REALLY believed God. Obviously, God got him to that place of belief, and trust, and I believe God will get us there too. He always said, "There it is! Now why don't they believe it?"
Notice what he didn't say. He didn't say, Now, there it is! Why won't they UNDERSTAND it?
Abraham understood God and it was credited to him as righteousness? No, he *believed* God and it was credited to him as righteousness. I guess belief comes before understanding. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding... which doesn't mean you'll never,ever understand. It just means you won't understand according to YOUR own understanding. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face, now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And that's a rap. :) I'm tired but I still have to literally drag myself to bed because otherwise, I would be here all night writing, But I have faith that the forum will still be here in the moanin'. :P
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Me too Gina. I am so hungry for the word that I could sit here all day talking to like minded people, but there are none around here. I love when I come to the forum and some are have a conversation about what we are learning, or learning something new.
I do have another question about the New Testament being written in Greek. Did Jesus speak mostly Greek? I know He knew all languages, and understood all, but I was going to a sacred name church at one time and they convinced me that Yahshua was Jesus' real name. My husband wasn't into the name at that time, but he is now and I am not. I don't want to get to heavy in this and I know Ray has went through this at one time, i just want to share with my husband what i am learning about it. He thinks we are still in the old testament, so Jesus would be called yahshua or Yahweh, because joshua took the people to the promised land after Moses' died. Joshua in hebrew is Yahshua, But didn't Christ come in Moses' place, not Joshua's?
with Love, virignia
Hi Virginia,
Greek and Latin were the common languages of the Mediterranean world, but Aramaic was the everyday language of Judea, the Roman province where Jesus lived.
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Thank you Extol. Is Aramaic close to the Hebrew lauguage? I know there were other people call Jesus, so the human name doesn't matter, but HIS character does, and we have to have HIS character before we can enter into the Kingdom Of God. Jesus's name is above all other names, which I believe that is HIS character, HIS way of life, HIM only doing what HIS Father tells HIM to do and say.
What name would they have used to address Jesus in the Aramaic language? This question is only for me to understand language use, because as I said name means character and character means a way of living your life in a good or bad way. As we know Jesus Lived THE FATHERS character and HE alone is only GOOD.
I have been coming to this forum for over five years and I haven't posted but a few times, I must be getting BOLD in my old age. lol
with love, virginia
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Thank you Extol. Is Aramaic close to the Hebrew lauguage? I know there were other people call Jesus, so the human name doesn't matter, but HIS character does, and we have to have HIS character before we can enter into the Kingdom Of God. Jesus's name is above all other names, which I believe that is HIS character, HIS way of life, HIM only doing what HIS Father tells HIM to do and say.
What name would they have used to address Jesus in the Aramaic language? This question is only for me to understand language use, because as I said name means character and character means a way of living your life in a good or bad way. As we know Jesus Lived THE FATHERS character and HE alone is only GOOD.
I have been coming to this forum for over five years and I haven't posted but a few times, I must be getting BOLD in my old age. lol
with love, virginia
They used the name Jesus. That is the name they used. Jesus is the name of the Father and Jesus is the name of the Son.
Read this article ray wrote below as it addresses your question.
--------------------------------------------- http://bible-truths.com/enigmaOfGod.htm
(http://bible-truths.com/eg2.jpg)
The English Name Jesus is an excellent transliteration of the Hebrew name Yeshua which means YAH is SALVATION By: Richard Rives, http://www.toolong.com/pages/events.htm Author of: "TOO LONG IN THE SUN"
Transliterating a name from one language to another is NOT changing the name. It is the SAME name, but spelled and pronounced to suit the language into which it is being translated. Now how hard is that? Yet wanna-be scholars would have us think that this is utter corruption, fabrication, counterfeiting, and blasphemous. Their criticism of transliteration is unfounded. If that were true, then it would be counterfeiting and corruption to translate anything into ANY language. Here is how simple this is: The English spelling of Yeshua is "Joshua." However, when translated from Hebrew into the Greek language, the name Yeshua becomes Iēsous, and the English spelling for Iēsous is "Jesus."
If names were only translated from one language to another, it would even be offensive in some cases, silly or awkward in others. For example the name Natalie means "born on Christmas day." So suppose translating that name from one language to another we translated the meaning of the word, rather than the sound of the name. A mother might then say: "This is my daughter Born on Christmas Day." Someone would probably remark: 'Oh how nice, your daughter was born on Christmas day." The mother would have to respond: "No, she was born on September 23, her Name is "born on Christmas day"-that is her NAME."
Pretty silly. Natalie is a beautiful name and in translating it from one language to another we would want to transliterate it and retain if possible its beautiful sound.
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JESUS! Thats it. Its Jesus. The way you hear it now in your ears is as close to how you would have heard it in Aremaic, greek, hebrew, whatever, as possible! That is the name of God!
God bless,
Alex
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So, going along a little more with the original intent of this thread- when Jesus became a man was he changed from what he was to who he is now? Stephen saw him as he lay dying. I don't understand that to be a vision but a sighting- and he was Jesus- changed as we know after the resurrection but still Jesus. Will he have scars on his hands and feet when we see him? Is he unalterably changed after dying for our sins and raising from the dead?
I know these seem simple, or maybe very complex, but it's where I am and you all know me well enough to know that I'd rather ask and seem foolish than not ask at all.
Hi octoberose,
I believe that the Son has always had the form of a man... that was a purpose for Him, to have an image of a man (like us), right from when the Father brought Him forth. This is how Ezekiel described the image of the OT God that he saw out of a whirlwind.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
In His glory the Son appears so magnificent that it's hard to comprehend, though in the form of a man. Yes the Son created all of the universe and was there to witnessed the transformation of the earth and all it's creatures from the very beginning... But that was always from His glorious state of being on high.
We know that He appeared to Abraham in a fleshly form, as a man and ate with him (Gen 18), so He had known something of the flesh. But when the Son was born into this world He had to experience all of this life from being a helpless babe to the suffering of crucifixion. The comprehension that He received from that experience would have given Him much better understanding of what we go through and must have been needed for Him to become "perfected"... not that He was not already perfect, but the experience gave Him something more, completed Him.
Luke 13:32 And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'
Perfected G5048
teleioō - to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.
Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great High Priest who has gone to heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us live our lives consistent with our confession of faith.
v. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses. Instead, we have One who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet He never sinned. (ISV)
The crucifixion was no easy pill to swallow, not even for Christ, by it was part of His learning experience and obedience even to the death.
Heb 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
v. 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
v. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
After Christ was resurrected He appeared in the flesh to 'many' of His own followers for 40 days as a witness of His resurrection and they recognized Him and knew it was Him and yes He still had the marks of the crucifixion on His body. But He had obviously regained His glory, because He appeared to some in a different form, a different look for His purpose needed.
Mar 16:12 After that, He appeared in another form to two of them as they walked and went into the country.
Remember even as the OT God He could come into the flesh and appear as a man, so when He regained His power after resurrection, He could again appear any way He chose to. So He stayed with them long enough to absolutely verify that He had indeed risen from the dead and saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth" (Mat 28:18). Then He ascended back to the heavenly throne and there I believe He took on the majestic appearance that Ezekiel saw... that must have been what Stephen saw just before he died. Stephen was brought before the council and in a long speech fiercely accused the high priest and all the Jews and they became enraged and attacked and killed him. I would think Christ appeared to him in His glory to strength this righteous man 'that He personally knew' in the last mins of his life.
Acts 7:54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
v. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
v. 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
v. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
v. 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
v. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
v. 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi virginia, I don't think it's so much about the word we use to address Him, that's just a physical means we use in oral language. He looks much more to our enter desire of regeneracy, respect and obedience that we have for Him, because He certainly knows what we think of Him in our heart.
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Here is another Description of Jesus in the OT:
Daniel 7:9-14
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Interestingly I think the wheels of the throne are the cherubim?
Ezekiel 10: 1-2
1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
Isaiah also saw Jesus in His glory on the throne and John re-affirms this. Exactly as Kat was saying.
Isaiah 6: 1-5
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
John 12:40-41
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw Jesus' glory, and spake of him.
God bless,
Alex
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Amen to that Kat. That is how I feel also.
That you Alex for the info. I really appreciate it. I needed that very much.
with love, virginia