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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Samson on January 30, 2012, 10:15:29 PM
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Hi Forum,
I got an idea for this Thread as the result of a conversation with another Forum Member based on an experience I had with the Banking Industry this past Friday, Saturday & Sunday.
My Wife and I have recently experienced a measurable change in Our combined Income resulting from a necessary Job change on Her part. Subsequently, Our Monthly Car Payment for the Chevrolet Malibu Maxx is a little higher than We can and should be able to pay. Just to be clear, so there are no misconceptions, We secured this Loan in 2008 under different circumstances with a more than adequate combined Income in good faith. So, I decided to attempt to do things the right way by applying for refinancing on this Car with PNC Bank, they are the original financiers of this Car Loan.
The Financial Consultant said He could get Me a Monthly payment of $250.00 for 60 Months, We currently pay $430.00 Monthly with 34 Monthly Payments left. We were trying to use Time to our advantage and remove some pressure. Now, mind you, My Credit Rating is way over 800. I applied using My Credit Score and just My Income, I was rejected based on My Income being inadequate in comparison to other expenses. So, the next day We reapplied combining both Our Incomes, the only catch being that My wife's Credit isn't very good. So, We had 2 out of 3: 1) sufficient income & 2) My excellent credit, but We got rejected again. The following day I contact Alliance Financial Services and get accepted because of My excellent credit with the likelihood of getting an interest rate of 0% to 3% and a reduction in Monthly payment to $340.00 per Month, but there's one catch, We have to invest in another Car from this local Dealership, the Car doesn't have to be a New purchase, but one that's similar, but a little Newer with less mileage than the 2007 Malibu.
The Hypocrisy & Irony in all of this is that We couldn't qualify for refinancing of Our Malibu, but were easily able to get Financing for another Vehicle. Keep in mind, the Chevy Malibu is in great condition, although the Miles are a little high, 93,000.
Now, all of the above brings Me to the Money Changers & LENDERS that Jesus threw out of the Temple angrily calling them Robbers or Thieves. Subsequently, all of this got Me thinking about the majority of cases where Jesus had harsh words and Judgement towards various groups, then I thought to show how these different groups are the ancestors of these different influential groups Today. The Technology and Sophistication of it might be different, but it's essentially the same deal. Read Below ! I'll explain the analogy.
1) Today's Financial Institutions equivalent to The Money LENDERS & CHANGERS of Jesus Day.
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
kollubistēs
kol-loo-bis-tace'
From a presumed derivative of κόλλυβος kollubos (a small coin; probably akin to G2854); a coin dealer: - (money-) changer.
lēstēs
lace-tace'
From ληΐ́ζομαι lēizomai (to “plunder”); a brigand: - robber, thief.
Does the above sound familiar, the Banking Industry are Parasites.
2) Today's Attorneys, Lawyers equivalent to The Teachers of The Law in Jesus Day.
Scribes: grammateus
gram-mat-yooce'
From G1121; a writer, that is, (professionally) scribe or secretary: - scribe, town-clerk.
gramma
gram'-mah
From G1125; a writing, that is, a letter, note, epistle, book, etc.; plural learning: - bill, learning, letter, scripture, writing, written.
3) Religious Leaders of Today equivalent to Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
4) Today's Judicial System, Judges, Jury, Prosecuting attorney equivalent to The Sanhedrin, Governor Pontius Pilate, Herod the Tetrarch in Jesus Day.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Subtilty: dolos
dol'-os
From δέλλω dellō (an obsolete primary probably meaning to decoy; compare G1185); a trick (bait), that is, (figuratively) wile: - craft, deceit, guile, subtilty.
Mat 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
Mat 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
Mat 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
Mat 27:23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Comment: At least Pilate publicly admitted Jesus was innocent and was without guilt. The Judicial system of Today is worse, they wouldn't admit anything at the outset.
Comments, Opinions, Scriptures, Ray's article about The real Jesus that People hate which mentions those He mostly directed harsh words towards.
Ready, Here We go. Samson.
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Hello Samson,
It is amazing how the Spirit of God enlighten us to truth in all areans of life.Just as when we are in conversation with those in the business world we can IMMEADITALY pick up contradictions in their speech and even recieve confirmation from the Spirit as of the condition of their heart.In truth The Spirit searches the deep things of God!How awesome it is to know once your enlighten by the Spirit of truth.It isnt limited to just spiritual matters, but also to exsposing the things of the world.The hard thing about it is you will get plenty of oppurtunity to Sharpen your skills...lol.God bless..Samson
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but there's one catch, We have to invest in another Car from this local Dealership, the Car doesn't have to be a New purchase, but one that's similar, but a little Newer with less mileage than the 2007 Malibu.
I have a friend who owns a used car lot that sells only 2-4 year old cars. He makes much more money off financing than the markup on the cars. The cars are just an avenue to lend money at a much higher rate than you can get at a bank. He gets enough down-payment so if the car needs to be repossessed he can sell again and not take a bath.
This is just business. Nothing immoral about it. Nobody is holding a gun to his customers head. In fact many of his customers are repeat customers. Many of them have a low credit rating and unable to get a good car anywhere but a used car lot.
In your case the money belongs to the bank (and their depositors) and they are in business to make money. They have rules they use to insure they get their money back with interest/usury.
The car lot you are considering will come out way ahead because you will end up paying a lot more than what you would pay at a bank. You need collateral to get a low interest loan at a bank. You can get a new car at zero percent because there is a markup in the car.
Nothing wrong with usury:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
The banks are tight with their funds right now because of the uncertainty of the future.
There was a time when I was in your situation and I sold the new car outright and bought something much cheaper to get by. You may want to consider this to protect your credit rating.
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but there's one catch, We have to invest in another Car from this local Dealership, the Car doesn't have to be a New purchase, but one that's similar, but a little Newer with less mileage than the 2007 Malibu.
I have a friend who owns a used car lot that sells only 2-4 year old cars. He makes much more money off financing than the markup on the cars. The cars are just an avenue to lend money at a much higher rate than you can get at a bank. He gets enough down-payment so if the car needs to be repossessed he can sell again and not take a bath.
This is just business. Nothing immoral about it. Nobody is holding a gun to his customers head. In fact many of his customers are repeat customers. Many of them have a low credit rating and unable to get a good car anywhere but a used car lot.
In your case the money belongs to the bank (and their depositors) and they are in business to make money. They have rules they use to insure they get their money back with interest/usury.
The car lot you are considering will come out way ahead because you will end up paying a lot more than what you would pay at a bank. You need collateral to get a low interest loan at a bank. You can get a new car at zero percent because there is a markup in the car.
Nothing wrong with usury:
Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
The banks are tight with their funds right now because of the uncertainty of the future.
There was a time when I was in your situation and I sold the new car outright and bought something much cheaper to get by. You may want to consider this to protect your credit rating.
Dennis,
Your points are Well Expressed, but the irony in all of this centers around the fact that I was approved by Brown Daub Chrysler with the Same Income that I presented in My application for refinancing with PNC Bank. Secondly, Brown Daub Chrysler doesn't expect Me to purchase a New Vehicle with them, I can Trade the Malibu, it's in excellent condition and still get a good used Car similar to the Malibu at a lower interest rate than PNC offered Me, they offered Me 8.49 %, remember, My Credit Score is above 800.
My main problem with this type of Business rationale primarily centers around the following: Why was My Income coupled with My good credit score good enough to originally purchase the Chevy Malibu in 2008, remember, that's MY INCOME only, not including My Wife's, but now with essentially the same Income, it isn't good enough for refinancing with the same Bank that originally gave Me the loan.
Another thing that is totally dishonest & greedy, whether it's "Legal" or not, centers around compounding interest on Loans, ie- placing almost all of the interest the first 1-3 years causing almost no principle to be paid on the loan, it may be "Legal," but it sure sounds like exploitation to Me.
Anyway, a far better alternative presented itself to Me, unexpected this was and centers around a particular help from a Family Member, unexpected because it wasn't solicited on My part, so I guess all of this doesn't really matter at this time. My Thanks goes to God.
Dennis, Now I realize that We didn't have to secure the Loan in the first place back 2008, but We did so in good faith with proper motive and much better income. We had no way of knowing that Our financial circumstances with drastically change. My wife makes only 50% of the total Net that She made prior to changing Jobs. Her former place of employment is officially closing down this June anyway. That's a State Government Job, State of NJ that is.
Anyway, I understand & accept your points Dennis and My problem isn't with the Car Dealer(Brown Daub), it's with PNC Bank, at least the Car Dealership was going to work with Me and valued my excellent credit.
Thanks, Samson.
P.S. I understand that the high Mileage of 93,000 was factor in not offering Me a better interest rate, but the Car in question(Malibu) is hardly getting driven anymore, hence lower insurance required. Prior to last June, the Car was being driven 50 miles daily to work, round trip, now it's only 15 miles round trip since June 2011 and I explained this to PNC and can prove it. So therefore, it won't accumulate much mileage anymore and hasn't for the last six months.
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Gotta love interest on loans. Still hurting from good ol' Sallie Mae myself. Thankfully I'll have that paid off here pretty soon.
Anyway, I can relate with how you feel.
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Samson,
Here's another option you might consider if it's available to you. Borrow from your 401K (if you have one) and pay off the creditors. You will still have to pay back the loan, but you will be paying yourself back with interest. That's what I did. I hate owing money. (Owe no man anything but love. Rom. 13:8)
As for myself, I will never buy another brand new car. That's truly where they get us. The minute a car is driven off the lot, it's already depreciated in value.
As an aside: Many BofA customers are moving over to my credit union (b/c BoA jacked up their fees!). For those who may not know, credit unions always have the best interest rates and few or no fees, but you have to belong to one. I could see about getting you in mine if you're interested.
All the best to you, Samson!
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Samson,
Here's another option you might consider if it's available to you. Borrow from your 401K (if you have one) and pay off the creditors. You will still have to pay back the loan, but you will be paying yourself back with interest. That's what I did. I hate owing money. (Owe no man anything but love. Rom. 13:8)
As for myself, I will never buy another brand new car. That's truly where they get us. The minute a car is driven off the lot, it's already depreciated in value.
As an aside: Many BofA customers are moving over to my credit union (b/c BoA jacked up their fees!). For those who may not know, credit unions always have the best interest rates and few or no fees, but you have to belong to one. I could see about getting you in mine if you're interested.
All the best to you, Samson!
Thanks Gina,
Unfortunately, I don't have a 401k Plan, used to have good State of NJ Pension Plan that I borrowed from regularly at a flat 4%, not the compounded crap. But, as I mentioned in the last part of My response to Dennis, the problem is solved, due to a financial surprise that God had already planned, of course, unknown to Me, only known by Him, it was quite a pleasant shock & surprise for both of Us. Thanks for your concern though, it's appreciated.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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my best friend is 24 years old, no debt, paid off his school loans early. He has an account with WaMu and his parents have 4 other accounts, all in good standing. He is planning on proposing to his girlfriend this spring. He found a ring and wanted to apply for a credit card so he can make payments on it. They completely rejected him.
He pulled the mom card on them and she said that he has paid everything on time and their family has had accounts with them for 15 years. She told them if you can't even give a small line of credit to someone who has no debt or bad credit and paid off all his loans early no less, what motivation do we have to remain at this bank?
well they changed their tune and approved a credit card with $1000 on it. Not much considering the ring is 3500 but its a start.
the thing of it is banks consistently make claims that people don't have good enough credit or ENOUGH credit but how people, young ones like best friend, achieve good credit if his own bank that he has been with for years no less isn't willing to give something small. Especially when he has made good on all his other loans? What's sad is that this guy is an upstanding person, responsible, getting a degree in computer science, paid off everything he has owed, never missed payments on his phone or anything else. What hope is there for the young professionals of our country if the most upstanding guy I have ever known can't get approved for a dinky credit card at his own bank he has been with for years?
Why banks do credit score checks nowadays before approving you even for a checking account? What does a credit score have to do with my keeping money in their banking system? Don't they want my money? Anyway, they don't give people a chance, its a wonder banks are open at all considering they keep rejecting what seems like most of their business.
I remember a line from the movie "catch me if you can". Christopher Walkin was trying to secure a loan from Chase bank and they said sorry sir its too much of a risk, to which he replied "you're the largest bank in the world, what's the risk"
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Dennis,
Your points are Well Expressed, but the irony in all of this centers around the fact that I was approved by Brown Daub Chrysler with the Same Income that I presented in My application for refinancing with PNC Bank. Secondly, Brown Daub Chrysler doesn't expect Me to purchase a New Vehicle with them, I can Trade the Malibu, it's in excellent condition and still get a good used Car similar to the Malibu at a lower interest rate than PNC offered Me, they offered Me 8.49 %, remember, My Credit Score is above 800.
My main problem with this type of Business rationale primarily centers around the following: Why was My Income coupled with My good credit score good enough to originally purchase the Chevy Malibu in 2008, remember, that's MY INCOME only, not including My Wife's, but now with essentially the same Income, it isn't good enough for refinancing with the same Bank that originally gave Me the loan.
Another thing that is totally dishonest & greedy, whether it's "Legal" or not, centers around compounding interest on Loans, ie- placing almost all of the interest the first 1-3 years causing almost no principle to be paid on the loan, it may be "Legal," but it sure sounds like exploitation to Me.
Anyway, a far better alternative presented itself to Me, unexpected this was and centers around a particular help from a Family Member, unexpected because it wasn't solicited on My part, so I guess all of this doesn't really matter at this time. My Thanks goes to God.
Dennis, Now I realize that We didn't have to secure the Loan in the first place back 2008, but We did so in good faith with proper motive and much better income. We had no way of knowing that Our financial circumstances with drastically change. My wife makes only 50% of the total Net that She made prior to changing Jobs. Her former place of employment is officially closing down this June anyway. That's a State Government Job, State of NJ that is.
Anyway, I understand & accept your points Dennis and My problem isn't with the Car Dealer(Brown Daub), it's with PNC Bank, at least the Car Dealership was going to work with Me and valued my excellent credit.
Thanks, Samson.
P.S. I understand that the high Mileage of 93,000 was factor in not offering Me a better interest rate, but the Car in question(Malibu) is hardly getting driven anymore, hence lower insurance required. Prior to last June, the Car was being driven 50 miles daily to work, round trip, now it's only 15 miles round trip since June 2011 and I explained this to PNC and can prove it. So therefore, it won't accumulate much mileage anymore and hasn't for the last six months.
Back in 2008 banks were lending. Now they are afraid to lend money without substantial collateral, no matter what you credit rating.
They front-load the interest in case they need to foreclose.
I'm happy you found some help Samson.
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I have been a C.P.A. for over thirty years. I have seen just about all things of a financial nature.
The best advice comes from the scriptures where it says that the borrower is the servant (or slave) of the lender. If you want to be financially free, financially at peace, then never borrow money for any reason. Pay cash or go without.
Giving the above advice to any human is like telling people to not sin. ;D Waste of breath.
Actually John, it's great advice and one I usually follow to a T while Single. Once I get Married, even though in this case, the Woman in question is overall pretty good, My Love for Her softened my stiff neck financial rigidity in regards to the Malibu.
On a side note: My Grandfathers were both Accountants and My Dad majored in Accounting at Middlebury College of Vermont, but later switched to Geology, got involved with Standard Oil.
Your advice is the best, stay within your means and don't borrow Money, except as a last alternative or resort. I've been telling My Wife for almost 7 years, We have to live within Our means or INCOME Level, Lets see if She listens, maybe this time.
Thanks, Samson.
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I have been a C.P.A. for over thirty years. I have seen just about all things of a financial nature.
The best advice comes from the scriptures where it says that the borrower is the servant (or slave) of the lender. If you want to be financially free, financially at peace, then never borrow money for any reason. Pay cash or go without.
Giving the above advice to any human is like telling people to not sin. ;D Waste of breath.
Actually John, it's great advice and one I usually follow to a T while Single. Once I get Married, even though in this case, the Woman in question is overall pretty good, My Love for Her softened my stiff neck financial rigidity in regards to the Malibu.
On a side note: My Grandfathers were both Accountants and My Dad majored in Accounting at Middlebury College of Vermont, but later switched to Geology, got involved with Standard Oil.
Your advice is the best, stay within your means and don't borrow Money, except as a last alternative or resort. I've been telling My Wife for almost 7 years, We have to live within Our means or INCOME Level, Lets see if She listens, maybe this time.
Thanks, Samson.
It's so important to live within our means whenever possible. Sometimes, it is not possible. However, if you're fortunate enough to have a good job, you never know when you're gonna lose it.
I'm horrified to borrow huge amounts of money from anyone (especially family members), because you never know if you'll be able to pay it back timely or at all. That's embarrassing. I've avoided borrowing from family members for years. I'd rather die. My dad taught me about the value of having your own paycheck at a young age.
I got my first job at 15 as a "shampoo girl" (lol -- that sort of title has gone extinct in today's world of political correctness, but hey! That's what we were! We were girls and we shampooed people's hair. And we LOVED it!) at a rinky-dink hair salon in Maryland.
No exaggeration: after walking 2 miles to/from high school, I'd walk another 3 miles to/from work (from 5107 Tyburn Court to Old Branch Avenue in Camp Springs, Maryland--you can mapquest it) about three times a week, rain / shine. In fact, I liked walking and being out of my house so much I'd walk there on my days off just to see if they needed extra help -- I wouldn't bother to call first. And they'd say yes every time! They loved me.
I made pocket change at that job and spent every last cent every paycheck. haha. I was a kid.
I'm glad your relative has come to your rescue. It saddens me to hear when women take advantage of their husbands. It sounds like she might be looking for fulfillment in expensive material things because she's unhappy at home or something. My bosses work so hard, and I think, man, if their wives knew how hard they worked, they'd be floored. They'd be kissing their feet. They work so hard and so many hours. And they never complain. Not ever. They're never pushy or harsh with the staff. They're just some of the most kindhearted people. I've learned a lot from them.
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I have been a C.P.A. for over thirty years. I have seen just about all things of a financial nature.
The best advice comes from the scriptures where it says that the borrower is the servant (or slave) of the lender. If you want to be financially free, financially at peace, then never borrow money for any reason. Pay cash or go without.
Giving the above advice to any human is like telling people to not sin. ;D Waste of breath.
Actually John, it's great advice and one I usually follow to a T while Single. Once I get Married, even though in this case, the Woman in question is overall pretty good, My Love for Her softened my stiff neck financial rigidity in regards to the Malibu.
On a side note: My Grandfathers were both Accountants and My Dad majored in Accounting at Middlebury College of Vermont, but later switched to Geology, got involved with Standard Oil.
Your advice is the best, stay within your means and don't borrow Money, except as a last alternative or resort. I've been telling My Wife for almost 7 years, We have to live within Our means or INCOME Level, Lets see if She listens, maybe this time.
Thanks, Samson.
It's so important to live within our means whenever possible. Sometimes, it is not possible. However, if you're fortunate enough to have a good job, you never know when you're gonna lose it.
I'm horrified to borrow huge amounts of money from anyone (especially family members), because you never know if you'll be able to pay it back timely or at all. That's embarrassing. I've avoided borrowing from family members for years. I'd rather die. My dad taught me about the value of having your own paycheck at a young age.
I got my first job at 15 as a "shampoo girl" (lol -- that sort of title has gone extinct in today's world of political correctness, but hey! That's what we were! We were girls and we shampooed people's hair. And we LOVED it!) at a rinky-dink hair salon in Maryland.
No exaggeration: after walking 2 miles to/from high school, I'd walk another 3 miles to/from work (from 5107 Tyburn Court to Old Branch Avenue in Camp Springs, Maryland--you can mapquest it) about three times a week, rain / shine. In fact, I liked walking and being out of my house so much I'd walk there on my days off just to see if they needed extra help -- I wouldn't bother to call first. And they'd say yes every time! They loved me.
I made pocket change at that job and spent every last cent every paycheck. haha. I was a kid.
I'm glad your relative has come to your rescue. It saddens me to hear when women take advantage of their husbands. It sounds like she might be looking for fulfillment in expensive material things because she's unhappy at home or something. My bosses work so hard, and I think, man, if their wives knew how hard they worked, they'd be floored. They'd be kissing their feet. They work so hard and so many hours. And they never complain. Not ever. They're never pushy or harsh with the staff. They're just some of the most kindhearted people. I've learned a lot from them.
Gina,
You'd have to read Her Testimony for a general idea of what She's gone through in Life, My past pales in significance regarding suffering & Trials. I can be a little picky and naggy when it comes to Money. I don't like owing anyone Money either, like you mentioned earlier.
Pam(My Wife) has greatly improved Her spending habits, being very poor growing up and having Two former relationships that took Her Money, not leaving any for Her didn't help. Pam's Net income dropped approximately 40-45% after changing Jobs last June, but She's much happier. We could still have made the payment as it stood, in the last two months, We made several adjustments to lower Our expenses: Cell Phone Plan Options, Car Insurance, Cable TV & keeping track of the electric Company trying to sneak in overly high estimated bills( that's another story that is technically theft on their part), because if You or I did it, We'd be considered Thieves.
Actually, We wanted a lower payment to avoid cutting things too close and avoiding having to get part time jobs, I hate dealing with people now, don't want to unnecessarily increase stress in that area.
Actually, I probably shouldn't say this, but what the heck, My Dad offered to pay off Our Car Loan, no solicitation on Our part, it was quite a shock, right out of the blue. God's Total Sovereign, He already had this planned, Our refinance rejections, trying to do right regarding our finances & properly pay debts without trying to weasel our way out of it. I Told Pam, We were blessed by this unexpected miracle, Now, no more loans, My Dad believes exactly like John From Kentucky, don't borrow money, pay credit cards on time, live within your means, even if you have to do without some of Toys. My Dad is doing this as a gift, no pay back required on Our part. Maybe it's His way of making up for not ding right by His children while We were growing up, He's 89 soon. In many ways, I feel bad for Him and feel ashamed He's helping Me. I told Him that He didn't need to, it was Our problem, but He said that I'm His Son & He Loves Me. Maybe We can help Him in the Ages to come, I know that God Will.
I'm sounding a little mushy, sorry, but what an eventful last four days, Samson.
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I get what you're saying, Samson. It took courage to share all that. You don't sound "mushy" to me at all; just very appreciative. :)
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Great thread. I enjoyed it a whole lot.
I went into a mortgage with 2 ex church members, and am still stuck in it even though I don't even live at the place. Long story. And it's doing a number on my credit because one of them lost her job, and the payments are always late. I even offered to transfer my share for nothing, but they're not interested.
I guess because of the way I grew up, I still feel that giving money is a powerful expression of my love for my kids. Maybe I am 'buying' their love :) but ... I am trying in any way I can to make up for my shortcomings when they were younger.
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Great thread. I enjoyed it a whole lot.
I went into a mortgage with 2 ex church members, and am still stuck in it even though I don't even live at the place. Long story. And it's doing a number on my credit because one of them lost her job, and the payments are always late. I even offered to transfer my share for nothing, but they're not interested.
I guess because of the way I grew up, I still feel that giving money is a powerful expression of my love for my kids. Maybe I am 'buying' their love :) but ... I am trying in any way I can to make up for my shortcomings when they were younger.
I guess your last two sentences of Your Post is similar, if not exactly like My Dad. He helps the other three Kids too, but He doesn't relay the extent of it to Me, My Siblings tell Me, I guess He figures it's none of My business what He does to help My Siblings. I'm 55 years Old and I keep referring to myself as a Kid in this Post. To My Dad and to God The Father, I am just a Kid, especially to God The Father. If this Economy and Price inflation of goods continues to worsen, financially, many of Us will be like Kids in regards to a comparison of Our Income to Necessity Expenses.
God is doing a Strange Work, Samson.
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"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
Our Daddy loves us very much.
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Great thread. I enjoyed it a whole lot.
I went into a mortgage with 2 ex church members, and am still stuck in it even though I don't even live at the place. Long story. And it's doing a number on my credit because one of them lost her job, and the payments are always late. I even offered to transfer my share for nothing, but they're not interested.
I guess because of the way I grew up, I still feel that giving money is a powerful expression of my love for my kids. Maybe I am 'buying' their love :) but ... I am trying in any way I can to make up for my shortcomings when they were younger.
I used to do that sort of thing for my daughter. All I was doing was stunting her. I was basically telling her: A person can't be happy unless they are given everything they want, even if they don't need it.
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I am not justifying the practice.
Truth be told my daughters are all working adults and do not depend on me for everything.
I was referrring to special events like their birthdays, and helping them when they have an emergency.
I just sort of recognized that I didn't provide "myself" as readily as I provided money. I was not there many times when they needed me.
I did not mean to hijack the thread, and really did get a lot out of the different posts and perspectives. I do love that scripture from Romans to owe no man anything but ongoing love. It's hard to forego mortgages though:>)
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Good Morning Samson,
Just a few additional thoughts in regard to your post.
Several years ago, while a 'member" of a local "church", the pastor gave a sermon on Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." Of course he tied that in with the idea of everyone in the congregation being able to tithe in much greater amounts if we were to obey that. I questioned many times after that how a person could buy a home or other greater expense items, such as that and not have to borrow to purchase it. Then, one day I heard Larry Burkett explain his thoughts on matters such as this. He continued by saying, "if we purchase an item that requires our need to borrow, we could do that and not go against Romans 13:8 by simply not borrowing an amount greater than what we could sell the item for on a "firesale" and be able to pay the institution, or the individual back his money". That still leaves some unknowns, such as would we just experience a drop in our income, Would it be temporary, long-term, and of course the economic conditions affecting the value of the items.... etc. etc.?
This may mean our first home may not consist of the mansion on the hill, and that we may have to begin with a smaller home, pay it off, then sell it for hopefully a profit and continue to work our way up. Of course, Paul said in Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. And God has said He will provide our needs if we trust Him.
I do believe that God does know each of our needs and will provide as my wife and I learned within this last year (first hand) we are both retired, and both have health problems. Several years back, I operated my own construction, sales and management business. Then, I suddenly began to develop physical problems that dumbfounded the local doctors. By March of the coming year we had sales of over a million dollars that I was forced to void the contracts on and for a couple of years thereafter spent a major portion of my time at home with my body continuing to draw into a fetal position. Of course this ended any immediate source of income and precluded any additional future savings programs etc. Since that point in time, God led us to a neurologist who was able to give me medication and control this very rare disease.
Obviously we are now living on social security totally. Then, God proved to us of His care when a temporary legal issue suddenly cut our social security in half and after our rent payment left us with about $20. a month. We did learn very quickly in a very real way how to trust God from day to day. We are happy to say He did provide in numerous ways until we could get the various legal matters straightened around.
We found it's every day... learning to TRUST. Again it was Paul who said in: Philippians 4:12-13 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Just thought I would share our experience with you and anyone who might be facing a similar situation. God never stops teaching us.
Sincerely
Den
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maybe it's saying, whenever you give, don't ask for it back. less bitterness that way and light on the heart. God exist in cheerful giving and it helps people whether they deserve it or not. that's love. that alone can allow you to experience God. keep in mind people have to make a living when doing businesses. it is what it is but it's simply saying when you are blessed enough, share it and don't ask for it back. :) and for the dealership, banks didn't want to loan us a car loan in spite of our good credit but car dealership was willing to help us out with 9 percent interest. ouch but I'm not complaining because it's allowed me to get a new vehicle and it's paid for now. took me five years to pay off the loan but their payments were a bit high but reasonable given the fact that I purchased the suv during a time where a economy depression was threatening to hit.
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I would like to relate an experience that I had with “moneylenders”.
It was still ongoing this year, but things now appear to have reached an end, except that I am considering bringing some parties into further account over the matter.
In 2009 I ended up with an approx $9000.00 Visa card “debt”. A certain venture did not work out as planned, after I withdrew the money in one transaction.
I have had credit card debt in the past, but for a different reason. I once got involved with a church that was based in Korea, and I went to Korea three times, plus other expenses, ending up with no house, and credit card debts. Later someone lent me the money to pay off this debt, on the condition that I repaid that loan at $200.00 per week (no interest).
I approached the new debt in a different way:
It may be useful to you to understand how the supply of money is related to debt and how money is borrowed into existence.
Following is a quote that comes from the short documentary film “Money as Debt”. This film can be viewed on the Internet. I do not however quote directly from the film but from another source that gives what I feel is better detail:
Banks create money. That is what they are for. . . . The manufacturing process to make money consists of making an entry in a book. That is all. . . . Each and every time a Bank makes a loan . . . new Bank credit is created -- brand new money.
- Graham Towers, Governor of the Bank of Canada from 1935 to 1955.
Here is a link to a page with links to the Money as Debt videos on YouTube
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/Money_as_Debt_YouTube_links.html
In regard to credit card debt, I think that the information that I have given below is reasonably accurate, and I would not claim that my knowledge is perfect. However I also speak from practical experience. The bank no longer asks me to make credit card payments.
The bank does not lend you any of its money, nor any of its customers’ money. Your signature on the loan agreement form is monetised and the funds arise from that source. The money is created. In other words, the credit card applicant gives the bank a piece of paper that is then turned into cash or monetised by the bank, and this money is then ‘loaned’ back to the credit card applicant. As far as I am aware, the bank passes this instrument on, as it has value and is therefore a form of money, and if you later asked the bank to produce this piece of paper as evidence of the debt that it is claiming that you have towards it, it cannot, as the bank no longer has it.
The bank cannot produce a copy of the accounting to show that it would occur a loss if you did not pay, that is to show that they lent you anything that it had it its possession before you signed the credit card documentation.
A legally binding contract requires consideration. The bank does not bring anything to the table.
Credit card “contracts” are unilateral (uni = one). You are the only one who signs, but there is no signature from an officer of the bank authorised to bind the bank in contract. For a contract to be lawfully binding the signatures of both parties must be included, making the contract bilateral (bi = two).
The bank does not give full disclosure (it does not tell you where the money is coming from). The Bank never discloses the nature of its actions and never discloses to the credit card holder that it was his own signature that created the funds. The credit card holder is led to believe, by past conditioning, and by a deliberate policy of the Bank not to make full disclosure, that he is borrowing the Bank’s money. A legally binding contract requires full disclosure, and it must not be based on fraud.
Ex malificio non oritur contractus. A contract cannot arise out of an act radically wrong and illegal. Broom's Max. 851.
It is one thing to know about these things, and it is another to do something about it. So in some trepidation I wrote to the bank, asking them certain questions and making certain requests (in regard to the validity of the claim of debt). The bank did not answer my questions or address my requests. The bank was not willing, effectively it refused, to provide simple answers to simple questions. This put the bank thoroughly into dishonour. The bank did direct me to the Bank’s Disclosures Statements, but did not direct me to any particular section or page of the Statements, and did not appear willing to provide any help in deciphering or explaining the contents. It did not want to give simple answers to simple questions. Many of the questions required a yes or no answer, so there was no justifiable excuse for not providing answers, especially when it is considered that the bank promised to be honest and fair in all its dealings, to do what is right for its customers, and to conduct its operations with high standards of personal behaviour.
The bank will send you unsigned statements, but never a signed invoice (or a signed affidavit), if you should request one.
I was afraid to confront such a powerful identity, or what seemed to me to be a powerful identity, as a bank, and after presenting my original questions and commencing the confronting process, I recommenced payments, taking no further action for a period of more than a year. I then decided to go for it. I had made card payments with money that I had borrowed using the card, had lost on the exchange rate in bringing money back (and vice versa), and I did not want one wage out of four, or whatever it was, to go towards bank “payments”.
Now you may question my moral integrity, but I made sure that my card was maxed out, and then stopped making further donations to the bank. A car crash at 110 mph and one at 100 mph is sort of the same thing, and if things were going to turn out ok then it would have been a waste not to first max out the card. It was perhaps fortunate that I did max out the card, because as the bank has no evidence of factuality of debt it is limited to sending you statements and saying, either directly or later though a debt collection agency, things like: “The user made payments and therefore admitted liability”. You can then say that it is obvious that the user admitted no liability and knew that the funds were all his as evidenced by his making a full withdrawal. The bank may say that you are bound by the Conditions of Use that you agreed to by your use of the card, and you can then tell the bank that underpinning the Conditions of Use and crucial to its functionality is the banks promise to be honest and fair in all its dealings, to do what is right for its customers, and to conduct its operations with high standards of personal behaviour, and where are the full, complete and truthful answers to your questions?
After much correspondence, the bank would not or could not show that a debt existed. Eventually the bank passed the matter over to a debt collection agency. I wrote to the debt collection agency saying that the matter was in dispute, showing that the debt was not factual, requesting proof of debt, and saying that if it continued to harass me then it would be liable to and agreeing to pay me $500.00 per day for each day of harassment. The debt collection agency continued to harass me, even though there was no evidence of debt, going so far as to list a default on my credit file, even though I had given it a number of warnings that the matter was not eligible for listing. I then wrote to the credit agency, showing that the matter was in dispute. I was able to show evidence of intensive communication between me and the bank, and between me and the debt collection agency, where I had tried very hard to get evidence of debt provided, but evidence had not been provided (only statements, which are not evidence of debt, had been posted to me). I had made it clear that I was not refusing to pay any legitimate debt. The credit agency removed the default. I last wrote to the debt collection agency in July this year with a demand for it to pay me the balance outstanding on its account of $155,500.00 ($500.00 per day). I have not heard from it since.
I have not heard from the bank for somewhat more than a year.
The debt collection agency had, in one of its letters, said that there was no existing contract between the bank and myself (it said that the bank had informed it that it holds contracts for seven years). The fact is no lawful contract had ever existed. With no contract between the bank and myself, as admitted by the debt collection agency, and no contract between the debt collection agency and myself, the debt collection agency’s attempt to get costs from me was extortion, which I had great delight in pointing out to it. Any contract between the bank and the debt collection agency was a matter between the bank and the debt collection agency, and I could not be forced to be a party to that contract if I did not choose to be. Nobody in the debt collection agency was willing to personally sign or to take accountability for its letters, even though I requested this of it (all letters were “computer signed”). I made it clear to the debt collection agency that someone must take accountability for its correspondence, giving it a time limit in which to reply, or it was agreeing that its demands were based on fraud and had no substance.
In regard to the matter being in dispute, I want to emphasise that the dispute was a genuine dispute, not one that I made up, as the bank did not or could not prove factuality of debt. The bank could not prove its claim and could not or would not present, or prove:
· The existence of a contract signed by both parties (it should also be kept in mind that a legally binding contract also requires consideration, a legally binding contract requires full disclosure, and a legally binding contract must not be based on fraud).
· That it was the holder of a valid and lawful original instrument of indebtedness in its original form (as in the contract above). If such an instrument has been on-sold to another party then it is my understanding that the bank no longer has the right to claim on it.
· A copy of the accounting to show that the claimed debt was a factual debt. The monetising of the customer’s signature/the credit card documentation with the customer’s signature on it, provided funds that did not previously exist. Effectively it is the customer that provides the funds, not the bank.
· A signed invoice (not a statement), or a signed affidavit saying that the debt was factual.
· Answers to my questions and the addressing of my requests, such a response being signed under full commercial liability and penalties of perjury, assuring and promising me that all of the replies and details given to the questions and requests were true and without deception, fraud or mischief. The bank can’t reveal the full true facts without the revealing of its fraudulent action.
I have not heard from the bank since somewhere near the middle of last year, the last letter from the debt collection agency was dated 30 May 2012, and the default placed by the debt collection agency on my credit file has been removed. There has been no response from the debt collection agency in regard to its large debt towards me.
Please note that with the bank concerned I had read that it had digitised all of its credit card agreements (which do not fulfil the requirements of a lawful contract), although this would probably have made no difference to the final result. Banks, as far as I understand, and have already mentioned, have already passed on this agreement, as it is a form of money. In regard to digitisation, a copy of this agreement cannot be used to enforce payment, in the same way that a copy of a cheque cannot be cashed. The original cheque must be used. It is therefore possible to write to the bank to offer payment in full upon receiving its assurance that it will accept payment in direct and immediate exchange for the original instrument of indebtedness in its original form. The bank cannot comply with this request and has therefore refused offer of payment. As a fair offer to settle has been made it can be argued that the claim of debt has no further basis on which to exist. I have seen an example on the Internet where this approach has been successful, although it did go through the stages of a listing and then a removing of a default.
Information in regard to credit card operation can be found on the Internet, and it is possible to ask for assistance through this facility. I made an enquiry through a United States based website and I received a well-worded response offering assistance, although I did not take up the offer. Here is the link (look further down the webpage for: “Eliminate Credit Card Debt”):
http://the7thfire.com/freedom_sovereignty/eliminate_credit_card_debt.html#discover
This is not part of the discussion, but I am writing this last bit for conscience’s sake: if there are any who wish to make use of any of the above information, please ensure that you do not do anything that would increase the likelihood of in the future being taken to one of the FEMA camps which are located in the United States and elsewhere. That is, if such camps are a reality, of course.
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I guess I'm not following. Readers digest version.
You say you rang up a $9000 credit card bill, and then did not pay it?
Why?
Where you forced against your will by the bank to use the card?
If not how do you figure you don't owe it?
Who do you think pays the $9000 you default on?
I'll tell you who, I do with higher fees, and anyone who may own stock in the bank does also.
Now we can talk for days over the shady practices bank deploy to get your money and the predatory lending that happens; and we are not going to do that. But that is not the case as far as I can tell with your story.
As John so bluntly stated, it looks like thievery to me too. I hope I just misunderstood your post.
Craig
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I once dreamed of a society void of all forms of money. Everyone would simply work and get what they wanted......of course this will not work for the greedy would want to keep taking and then many would not work and still want. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. This be the scriptures I used to think if we could eliminate the money......we would eliminate the problem. LOL My theory was pure and good. Humanity is going to distort and cheat all systems involving money, trade, value etc. Just my two cents. My heart was in the right place. But our heart's are not yet in his Image. Stay tuned.....
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I too thought of Proverbs 22:7' " The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is slave to the lender." Dave Ramsey from Financial Peace University quotes that daily. His advice is very sound- with the exception of his belief in tithing. Your wife may actually enjoy his radio show and website.
Just wanted to add that as I understand it, if you take money out of a 401k before retirement age you are hit with some pretty costly taxes and penalities. :o
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I like Ray's explanation of the money lenders & changers.
http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm
AN ANGRY CHRIST IN A DEN OF THIEVES
Did JESUS ever get angry over crime and corruption within the church?
"And they came to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple, and OVERTURNED the table of the money-changers, and the SEATS of them that sold doves: And would NOT ALLOW that any man should carry any wares through the temple"(Mark 11:15-16).
Now then, were any of these activities being performed in the Temple ILLEGAL? No, they were not. The officers of the Temple allowed it according to their laws, and the Roman Government allowed it according to their laws. So these merchants in the Temple were not criminals. Or were they?
Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:
"And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
Does anyone believe that Jesus was SMILING while He turned over their tables and accused them of making His House a "DEN OF THIEVES?"
Joh 2:16 And He said to those who sold doves, Take these things away from here. Do not make My Father's house a house of merchandise.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
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The Big Fat Fiasco videos, recently posted by Levy, show that the truth in regard to fat is not what we have been taught.
I would like to relate an experience that I had with “moneylenders”.
Hello Oatmeal,
I don't see where one thing has to do with another. Yes, we may learn more and more truth during our lives, fat may be good, banks may not be correct or legal with people, we can learn all the ways they find to harm people's pockets, but anyway using their money and not paying them back is simply wrong.
God bless,
Levy
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Hi Levy
Everyone seems to have missed the main point of my post, that is: the money system is not as most of us think it is. It is a debt based system, not a value (e.g. gold) based system.
I regret the fact that I mentioned the Fat Fiasco videos at the beginning of my post. It was a late addition just before posting.
I do not understand your second comment. How did I steal from the Bank, if that is what you are saying, when I had given to the Bank an asset equal to, or greater than, the value of the “loan”?
Remember that the Bank declined to answer my questions. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that my dispute was treated as valid, and the default listed on my credit record removed?
The Bank is unable to validate that I have a debt towards it. However people on this forum are able to. I don’t know what their logical reasoning is. Perhaps they should present their reasoning to the Bank and give the Bank some assistance in the matter.
Levy, if you gave someone $10,000, and they gave you a loan of $10,000 based on the $10,000 you had just given them, would you actually owe them anything?
The Bank cannot present any accounting to show that I have a debt towards it. This is because the Bank’s accounting shows that I gave the Bank an asset, that is, I gave it money. The debt has already been paid, even before it occurred. Do not confuse what you think money is (something like gold, or silver, or something that can be exchanged for such) to what it actually is today.
It is not my fault that the system is as it is, and if with knowledge I take advantage of the system, then it is with knowledge that I take advantage of the system. I am not a slave to the Bank. On this occasion the Bank was a servant to me, and exchanged the asset that I gave it into something that I could use.
I was very open and honest with the Bank in my first letter to it, explaining the logic as to why I did not owe it any money. The Bank did not refute my argument at any time, and has not done so to this day.
Oatmeal
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Wow! Now here's a thread that I didn't expect to get "Resurrected" In theory, JFK was right from the start, We are slaves of the Lender and We shouldn't borrow money, but pay the entire mess right away, but the reality for at least some of us, Our incomes aren't increasing proportionately to the Cost of Living, I received one raise in seven years from the tight wad cheap skates that employ Me and I'm unable to thoroughly work on Cars to maintain them. I despise borrowing Money and only did so involving the purchase of a reliable vehicle. Also, the pressure of Ones Spouse whether Husband or Wife is another factor in causing or influencing ones decision in utilizing credit options. We are at the mercy or lack thereof from these Creditors(Money Lenders), so if you don't need it, don't buy it, that's my Policy, but a Car in most cases is a necessity. From 1998-2006 I nursed two junkie Cars and got by.
I hope that this Thread gets locked, it has outlived it's usefulness. My initial point in starting this thread is the fact that just because what Creditors do is Legal, certainly doesn't make it ethical, ie-profit margins, interest rates, unreasonable terms of agreement, extending credit to those with inadequate income. Legal doesn't necessarily equate to what's ethical. I guess it's just another experience of Evil to humble us.
With God's help I was able to negotiate a bargain price for my Surgery & Dr's Fee's. I was up front with these Medical practitioners and what would have Cost 11 Grand was negotiated down to 3-4 grand, that's a rough estimate of my total expenses. I was honest & leveled with these Guys and so far I was rewarded. Thanks to God for that.
Samson.
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I hope that this Thread gets locked, it has outlived it's usefulness. My initial point in starting this thread is the fact that just because what Creditors do is Legal, certainly doesn't make it ethical, ie-profit margins, interest rates, unreasonable terms of agreement, extending credit to those with inadequate income. Legal doesn't necessarily equate to what's ethical. I guess it's just another experience of Evil to humble us.
Per your request, Samson (Brad). It is locked.
René