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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on June 25, 2008, 10:03:50 AM
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This thought occurred to me again as I was reading the following "Email to Ray" from a concerned Christian;
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7544.0.html
The people who are presently deceived by the hell doctrine really have to do some extreme thought contortions to be able to rationalize what exactly Satan and his demons are doing in hell, are they being punished or are they doing exactly what they love doing, tormenting mankind.
Even as a child it had often crossed my mind; "Why does God give a fiery kingdom to the devil to do what he pleases with human beings?" Why should Satan have eternity to do what he loves?
According to the hell proponents Satan is the one who inspires sinful activity, he is the instigator, the facilitator of evil activity, do they ever ask themselves why Satan who was supposedly created a perfect being who decided to challenge God gets a kingdom of his own to torture people who were not born perfect, who actually started life at a huge disadvantage in comparison to a perfect angelic being?
I have discussed this with a few Christians and the premise I proposed did little other than upset them, of course I then changed the subject in the hope they would further (prayerfully) contemplate this question on their own at some future point.
Peace,
Joe
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I dont understand it. I dont understand how they can believe this contradiction, and I dont understand why they get so upset (angry!) when it is pointed out to them.
I know why it is, but I dont understand it. I hope you know what i mean by that.
IMO they may as well call themselves satanists, since they give him all of the glory and power. ???
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I was reading on some site this guy who was trying to defunct Ray's teaching of aions and aionios etc etc, and how eternal is in the bible yada yada yada. And I thought to myself, why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment (this person didn't necessarily agree with the "burning torture eternally" doctrine. Nonetheless, the teaching is NOT GOOD NEWS so why would you want to perpetuate it???
Eileen
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I think that they are brainwashed in a way and they are scared to believe something different. I know when I first started to hear about no hell I thought "oh it's another cult". I had been so indoctrinated with the hell concept all my life and then it was layered on super thick from ages 18 to 37 when I was a "born again christian". I was really scared when my husband told me he didn't believe in hell anymore. I thought he was into a cult and I don't really know what else the fear was about. I just know I was really scared. But what you said Joe about Satan getting a place to torture humans makes no sense. I can't believe I could not see the absurdity in it for all those years. I thank God He has shown me these truths.
Lori :)
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If you contort your thinking long enough than it is easy and doesn't feel like you are "contorting" :D. Believing the lie just gets easier and you don't have to "think". Remember in that other post about polls and catholics will fight to the death to say they are catholic but don't have a clue what it teaches.
Too many people are lazy to get in the bible so they just parrot what they think others are saying. Then if they do check it out, their eyes are blinded anyway, and they just don't get it!
But why oh why would ANYONE want that to be true??????
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Why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment?
But why oh why would ANYONE want that to be true?
That nails it doesn't it?
Luke 6:
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
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Satan was made perfectly for the purpose in which he was created, The Apostle Paul knew this when he said "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Without such a creation How is it that men can receive salvation?
Why was it that Paul, had a messenger of SATAN sent to "buffet" him? If not for his ultimate Good?
Satan is nothing more than what God made him, and God made him perfectly for the job!
It is God who formed the crooked serpent, It is God who created Evil, I [God] form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
But oh Lord who has believed our report?
Few indeed....
Peace
Chris R
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I guess they see Satan as a God, have they considered he may be able to win?
(Now that would be Scary) If Satan can't win his idea of stealing souls, why doesn't God just crush him now?
This is an amazing scripture, is the destruction of the flesh physical death, or is it chastisment?Satan was made perfectly for the purpose in which he was created, The Apostle Paul knew this when he said "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Without such a creation How is it that men can receive salvation?
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Hi Joe,
It's all so ironic what the church teaches. They have it all turned around, upside down and backwards.
God is sovereign... but He can not save His own creation...
God is totally love... but He will sent most of humanity to burn for all eternity...
God is all powerful... but Satan has totally thwarted His plan...
God is all knowing... but we have free will so He doesn't know for sure what we will do...
They have been caused to believe all of these untruths, they are deceived!
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth... (CLV)
Do the deceived know they are deceived, of course not.
John 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
So until this blinded deceived church age is over, until the return of Jesus Christ, we just have to hold on to the truth we have been given. Because the day will come when all eyes shall be opened.
Isa 35:4 Say to those who have an anxious heart, "Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you."
v.5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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What really bugs me about it is how obvious it is that Christ hates hypocrisy, but while you assert that hell is reall you accuse Christ of being a hypocrite!
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If you point out a verse like this to them and say, this is how God treats His enemies, they usually just turn around and say, no, that's just for you to follow so He show you mercy at "The Judgment".
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I was reading on some site this guy who was trying to defunct Ray's teaching of aions and aionios etc etc, and how eternal is in the bible yada yada yada. And I thought to myself, why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment (this person didn't necessarily agree with the "burning torture eternally" doctrine. Nonetheless, the teaching is NOT GOOD NEWS so why would you want to perpetuate it???
Eileen
Just before I came across a comment on YouTube where someone expressed this sentiment, but in fewer words:
Why would Christians WANT eternal punishment in the Bible?
******* weird and stupid
Such a simple truth :)
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
He said the F word!!!!!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
I'm tellin!!!!
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Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them and they shall be his people and God himself shall be with them and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
How does one fit these verses into an eternal hell, it does not say some men, some tears, some sorrow, some crying, some pain but a very definitive "shall be no more" period.
Praise God!
Isn't it amazing that once our eyes are opened to this and we see the real Light how very obvious it is? But at one time we all were blind to it to some degree or another, without His grace, without His Spirit we would also be stumbling about and parroting this doctrine of devils. All glory goes to God!
Peace
Joe
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We are fortunate and blessed to know that the Christian hell, Satan's supposed kingdom does not really exist at all. But we know Satan is real and he has a kingdom, the true location of his kingdom is the last place our brothers and sisters who are still in Babylon would ever even look for it. How perfect is that for an effective deception?
THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED
Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:
"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).
"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).
Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.
And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
WHERE IS PERGAMOS TODAY?
Why would God choose the church of Pergamos/Pergamum as a physical type of the spiritual city where Satan really dwells and has his throne? We read this historical account of Pergamum:
"Pergamum, founded no later than 399 BC, became the capital city of the Roman province in Asia giving the traveler the impression of a royal city, the home of authority. Located about 60 miles north of Smyrna and 15 miles from the Aegean Sea, Pergamum was a center of learning, medicine, and religious books. The library, rivaling the Alexandrian library, drew many princes, priests, and scholars. Noted for marble carving, it excelled the other six cities in architectural beauty."
A royal city of authority with maybe the greatest library in the world. A city of learning, medicine, and religion. More excellent than all of the other Six Church Cities. Clearly, this city had all of the physical attributes that would make it suitable for the throne and dwelling place of Satan.
But remember: Revelation is a signified book of symbols that stand for spiritual things. The physical city of Pergamus was only a symbolic representation of something higher, something more profound, something of grand proportions. Satan does not reside or dwell or have his throne and his synagogue in West Asia in a demolished old city name Pergamus? Pergamus mean fortified. It comes from the word purgos (Strong’s #4444, which means "burgh; a tower or castle" page 219). Satan dwells (permanently resides) in the Church. But Satan dwells in a city that is, was, and will be. We will later identify this city described in Rev. 2:13.
This then brings us to Satan’s final and grandest achievement in The Church—the very "DEPTH of Satan." Something more evil and vile than anything ever conceived of by man or demon! But not to worry—for if you have been chosen to understand these things, then you will,
"Come OUT of her My people…" and "He that overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be My SON" (Rev. 18:4, & 21:7).
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html
His Peace to you,
Joe
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You know I never looked at it that way. Why would God give satan such pleasure for all eternity??? That makes no sense at all. I always knew that the heaven and hell one shot at life concept seemed totally unfair and just plain ridiculous for an all knowing God but I never saw that simple aspect of it. Thank you for sharing that Joe, a truly inspired thought and I will be using that one ;).
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I know why it is, but I dont understand it. I hope you know what i mean by that.
Hi Kent,
I know exactly what you mean, God addresses this Himself;
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Peace,
Joe
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You know I never looked at it that way. Why would God give satan such pleasure for all eternity??? That makes no sense at all. I always knew that the heaven and hell one shot at life concept seemed totally unfair and just plain ridiculous for an all knowing God but I never saw that simple aspect of it. Thank you for sharing that Joe, a truly inspired thought and I will be using that one ;).
Hi Krista,
An amazing thing for sure, this certainly is an interesting journey He has us on, isn't it?
Peace,
Joe
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Hello All,
I have questioned how much if at all Satan is "pleasured".
As Ray points out in the LoF Part 9 that Satan always shows up when needed:
It was GOD’S idea to severely try Job, not Satan’s. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not…" (Mal. 3:6).
David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:
"Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).
Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can’t men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?
Satan takes orders from God so well that I have wondered what feelings if any he may experience... however we do read:
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Satan did "desire"... the Greek root is ask, beg, call for, crave, desire... he desired to put Peter to trial. Jesus declared the outcome when he prayed for Peter but it certainly appears that Satan has wants and desires... which considering the end of the age as we have been shown I find it very interesting.
Bobby
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IMO they may as well call themselves satanists, since they give him all of the glory and power.
And they dont get that too
Praise God!
Isn't it amazing that once our eyes are opened to this and we see the real Light how very obvious it is? But at one time we all were blind to it to some degree or another, without His grace, without His Spirit we would also be stumbling about and parroting this doctrine of devils. All glory goes to God!
Peace
Amen
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I have questioned how much if at all Satan is "pleasured".
Hi Bobby,
Good question, the way I am perceiving that is Satan has an insatiable desire to control and consume man's carnal mind. Perhaps it is similar to what a lion feels when hungry and sees his prey on the horizon, stalks it, overcomes it, consumes it and then he experiences that temporary satisfaction of an appetite being filled.
Since he eats the "dust of the earth" (that's us) there must be some pleasure he derives from overcoming us, just like we are satisfied after a juicy steak dinner.
Peace,
Joe
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I'll throw my two cents in,
Would Satan know what a steak tastes like?...I mean does he equate desires from a human perspective, since he is decidedly not human, Does he have eyes nose and ears? Does he have a stomach? a tongue? teeth? We have read his description, but mostly this is what he "is like" not what he is. A serpent? A Lion? we know He is not one of these, they are animals.
I reckon first we would have to know what He is, to understand what his desires are. is he "like a angel" spiritual, or is he different, I don't know...anybody seen him lately?
Chris R
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Hi Chris,
I hope you don't think I am being literal here, don't you think that God has put some desire to be satisfied within Satan or is he a robot or machine that just does stuff with no sense of self, no void that is filled as he does his work, consuming man's carnality.
From Lake of Fire Part 9;
SATAN ALWAYS SHOWS UP WHERE HE IS NEEDED
Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn’t sneak into the garden against God’s will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God’s master plan.
Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on? Satan dines on mankind.
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).
This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other than
"…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).
And this is the same serpent that "deceived" Eve.
Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]…" (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS ‘dust.’
"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).
Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.
Satan even had King David for dinner:
"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
But always remember, Satan never operates beyond his God-given parameters as we will see in the case of Job.
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:
"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).
It was GOD’S idea to severely try Job, not Satan’s. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not…" (Mal. 3:6).
David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:
"Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).
Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can’t men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?
Satan is constantly finding fault with God’s Chosen ones:
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist [accuse] him" (Zech. 3:1).
Remember, Satan can do NOTHING without God’s approval. When God completed His creating, He said
"And God saw EVERY THING that He had made [including Satan, the Adversary], and, behold, it was VERY GOOD…" (Gen. 1:31).
Satan was not only necessary, but he was, in fact, PERFECT for the job that God created him to fulfill.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Peace,
Joe
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greatings all.
yes some statments i have heard:
satan and his demons will spend eternity in hell tormenting souls.
the angels rejoice as souls are cast into hell,.....thats a sick one!!
satan desires to thwart Gods plan. ::)
you preach a false gospel and are eternally condemned :D
satan laughs as he tortures unbeleivers in hell.
get thee behind me satan :o
babies that die that god knew wouldnt beleive go to hell. :'(
satan is in hell right now torturing souls.
the devil thinks he will when the war ::)
god has predestined the nonelect to an eternity in hellfire. :'(
many more but i stop here, im getting nausious.
God bless
chuckt
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Wow...I never saw this. So Satan was created perfectly as a Tool of God, and he is only allowed to dine on the carnial mind. Which is itself evil, and eventually it is what GOD is burning out of Us??
[color=blue
Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.[/b]
Satan was not only necessary, but he was, in fact, PERFECT for the job that God created him to fulfill.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Peace,
Joe
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greatings all.
yes some statments i have heard:
satan and his demons will spend eternity in hell tormenting souls.
the angels rejoice as souls are cast into hell,.....thats a sick one!!
satan desires to thwart Gods plan. ::)
you preach a false gospel and are eternally condemned :D
satan laughs as he tortures unbeleivers in hell.
get thee behind me satan :o
babies that die that god knew wouldnt beleive go to hell. :'(
satan is in hell right now torturing souls.
the devil thinks he will when the war ::)
god has predestined the nonelect to an eternity in hellfire. :'(
many more but i stop here, im getting nausious.
God bless
chuckt
And have you noticed that they seem to be excited at the prospects? How they seem to like the idea that people are supposedly going to burn forever? Oh, they will say that it saddens them, but it is as phony as a $3 bill.
If only the French had held the Maginot Line with the same tenacity that these people hold on to these stupid doctrines. ::)
This has to be the Great Delusion. I dont see any other explanation for it.
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yup. and my all time unfavorite saying of men:
""jesus talked more about hell than heaven"" ::)
be well
chuckt
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Hi Joe,
Devour
1. To eat up; to eat with greediness; to eat ravenously, as a beast of prey, or as a hungry man.
We will say, some evil beast hath devoured him. Gen 37.
In the morning, he shall devour the prey. Gen 49.
2. To destroy; to consume with rapidity and violence.
I will send a fire into the house of Hazael, which shall devour the palaces of Ben-Hadad. Amos 1.
Famine and pestilence shall devour him. Ezek 7.
3. To destroy; to annihilate; to consume.
He seemed in swiftness to devour the way.
4. To waste; to consume; to spend in dissipation and riot.
As soon as this thy son had come, who hath devoured thy living with harlots. Luke 15.
5. To consume wealth and substance by fraud, oppression, or illegal exactions.
Ye devour widows houses. Mat 23.
6. To destroy spiritually; to ruin the soul.
Your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. 1 Pet 5.
7. To slay.
The sword shall devour the young lions. Nahum 2.
(E-Swords Webster)
I guess if Satan devours like in no. 6 "To destroy spiritually" or leads one into sin behaviors?
Well I think we have some very good example of how Satan works in the temptations of Christ.
Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
v. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry.
v. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
v. 4 But He answered and said, "It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."'
I don't think Satan was there with Jesus in physical form, he is spirit, spirit is invisible. I think Satan came to Jesus just like he comes to us and whispered these thoughts in His ear, so to speak. Satan tempted Jesus to satisfy His hunger, actually He was lierally starving. So Satan tempts - don't wait on God to provide, take care of things yourself or really question His faith in God. Christ saw throught it immediately. But is this like Satan tempting us to satisfy some carnal desire we make have or not trust on God to help us overcome these desire, evenually?
Mat 4:5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
v. 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
"He shall give His angels charge over you,'
and, "In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone."'
Again Satan must have whispered in Jesus' ear, He could prove His faith by making a dramatic show that He trusted God to protect Him or really putting God's promise to the test. Again Christ saw throught it immediately. How do we put God to the Test? Maybe this Scripture can help us understand.
Mal 3:15 So now we call the proud blessed,
For those who do wickedness are raised up;
They even tempt God and go free.
The last temptation.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
v. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
v. 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'
What is Satan saying here? Was it maybe that Christ could avoid the cross? Was this a temptation to save Himself from that agony and humilation? Are we tempted to give in to the lusts of this world that Satan presents to us? Is that in effect doing his bidding or worshipping Satan?
Well I was just looking into these things, thought in would go with your topic.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
You quoted:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
v. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
v. 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'
Notice that Jesus told Satan: "You shall worship the Lord YOUR God"... Our Lord is Satan's God too... and Satan knows it.
Just an observation.
:)
Bobby
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Hi Bobby,
Good point. I hadn't taken notice of that before.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
You quoted:
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
v. 9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
v. 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve."'
Notice that Jesus told Satan: "You shall worship the Lord YOUR God"... Our Lord is Satan's God too... and Satan knows it.
Just an observation.
:)
Bobby
Hi! Bobby
A very good observation too, I hadn't seen it. Thank you.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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They were asleep and you woke them up!!!! Don't worry they will probably go back to sleep unless the Lord uses what you said to do a broader work in them. peggy
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Hi Chris,
I hope you don't think I am being literal here, don't you think that God has put some desire to be satisfied within Satan or is he a robot or machine that just does stuff with no sense of self, no void that is filled as he does his work, consuming man's carnality.
From Lake of Fire Part 9;
Joe[/color]
Hi Joe,
Nahh Just messin with ya.... ;D
To be perfectly honest, I really don't know, I know there is a plan and purpose for Satan and his minions, but i really don't have a clue as to how he "feels"......Is there Good in Satan?...I dont think so?...If there is no contrast..does he know what Bad is?...see what i'm gettin at?
Peace
Chris R
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That is extremely interesting Chris...
we know he is to be thrown into the LoF... maybe not until then will he know such contrast.
Bobby
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In one of Rays Bible studdies he put it all very simply when he quoted Paul and said that these people have an evil heart of unbelief, and its that simple.
For instance a very simple yet profound prophecy and declaration From Jesus Christ, Matthew 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."
For a long time I just read this scripture and just thought of it as part of Christs sermon on the mount to his disciples, and like most Christians just thought of it as a compassionate statement. But in this brief and simple verse, Christ is saying so much to us. Its actually another proof scripture that God will save ALL of mankind. If just one person goes to an eternal hell to be tormented and tortured for all eternity, then this scripture is a lie. What comfort can there be for a mourning family if their loved one is in hell? None at all. Jesus Christ said those who mourn shall be comforted, I profoundly believe that. Mainstream Christians do not. In fact, I know of many that are only too happy to tell a grieving family that a tragically lost loved one is being tortured in hell.
I recently had an email exchange with one such heretic who claims to be a minister (after two emails I responded no more). He actually asked the question "do you believe this nonesense because you have lost someone? My best friend recently lost his unsaved father, who is now in hell. He is struggling but I have told him he needs to deal with it and start loving God or he could share the same fate." For the life of him he could not see the monstrous evil in what he was saying. The mainstream Christian message is no different to the message of an insane genocidal dictator like Hitler or Saddam "love me or I will torture you forever". There is no deeper depravity.
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David,
Good catch. I find this same message over and over... the good news is everywhere.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Just to add to your observation... even non-believers mourn... they too shall be comforted.
Another one that is a favorite of a friend of mine:
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
The first will be last and the last will be first... but all will be in the kingdom.
Bobby
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Yes! I agree with Bobby, good catch David!
"Those that mourn," that should just about cover everybody.
I had a thought about what Chris wrote earlier about Satan being a part of God's plan and purpose and not some aberration that deviated (rebelled) from God's intent for his perfection (fall of "Lucifer"). The God we are learning of, the One who is revealing Himself to us does not get taken by surprise nor is He thrwarted by His creation, He is in control.
These words from Jesus underline this to my way of thinking;
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Chris,
I hope you don't think I am being literal here, don't you think that God has put some desire to be satisfied within Satan or is he a robot or machine that just does stuff with no sense of self, no void that is filled as he does his work, consuming man's carnality.
From Lake of Fire Part 9;
SATAN ALWAYS SHOWS UP WHERE HE IS NEEDED
Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn’t sneak into the garden against God’s will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God’s master plan.
Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on? Satan dines on mankind.
"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).
This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other than
"…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).
And this is the same serpent that "deceived" Eve.
Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]…" (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS ‘dust.’
"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).
Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.
Satan even had King David for dinner:
"And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" (I Chron. 21:1).
But always remember, Satan never operates beyond his God-given parameters as we will see in the case of Job.
God gave Satan charge over Job, his body, and all his possessions, to try him severely before God:
"And the Lord said unto SATAN, Behold, he [Job] is in your hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6).
It was GOD’S idea to severely try Job, not Satan’s. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not…" (Mal. 3:6).
David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:
"Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).
Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can’t men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?
Satan is constantly finding fault with God’s Chosen ones:
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and SATAN standing at his right hand to resist [accuse] him" (Zech. 3:1).
Remember, Satan can do NOTHING without God’s approval. When God completed His creating, He said
"And God saw EVERY THING that He had made [including Satan, the Adversary], and, behold, it was VERY GOOD…" (Gen. 1:31).
Satan was not only necessary, but he was, in fact, PERFECT for the job that God created him to fulfill.
http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Peace,
Joe
Hi! Joe
I said I was going to rest up for a bit, but reading this post has forced my hand. You are so very right, when people are given the message they just can't see it. What you are saying is what the Scripture are saying, it's what Ray's teachings are saying and it's what I tried to put across but failed abysmally in doing. The human mind in us harbours both the Spirit and Satan's larder labeled by Ray as the "Beast Within." This is where Satan stores all his goodies and this is the part of us that is in constant enmity with the Spirit. Satan can do nothing in the Light, for example, he'd starve if he had to search for food in the Light of the first Commandment so he has to come where his food is in the second, DUST.
Those who by the grace of God are given the Spirit, are now commanded to bring this bag of Satan's goodies from the darkness within into the glorious Light where we clothed in the armour of God can do battle. While the beast remains within us in darkness, we on our own can do nothing and our sins which are character flaws and Satan's stored goodies appear to be unsurmountable. This is why our loving God has promised us a way out; “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you." (Jn.14:18). What other reason would He have had to have made that promise? He knew He was leaving us defenseless.
In the light of the Spirit's presence in us these character flaws now become just a little more than peanuts because He that is within us is greater than him without but we must play according to the rules. Carnal against spirit (the beast within) in darkness spells death but Spirit against spirit (the beast within) in the glorious Light spells Life. He has to be brought into the Light for the Spirit to do anything, and that is something that only we can do if we have a true desire to do it.
You are so right Joe and from what I see everyone appears to be drawing circles round it and not getting the meat. How sad! :'(
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi All,
Just to add something as well....
If the worms are going to eat the unsaved in hell, as many 'christians' believe, and this thus being literal, are these worms then just going to keep munching away into all eternity without these bodies ever dying or not exist anymore?
If given enough time, like eternity, I guess a worm would be able to fully consume a body many times its size. So, eventually the worm would be able to eat up the unsaved in hell. UNLESS, the unsaved's bodies were regenerative which would allow this torture of the worms to never end. The worms munch away on your legs, until they're almost gone, and then tackle your arms. While busy with the arms, your legs grow back, so that the whole process can repeat itself again and again....
The question which arises from this is, where does the regenerative power come from. Where does the healing of the worm eaten bodies come from, in order for the worms not to run out of bodies to feed of? At some point these bodies according to the laws of physics, must die. But according to Christian doctrine, these bodies don't. They just get eaten and eaten and eaten.....
Do you guys think the worms will be happy? ;)
Take care all!
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Do you guys think the worms will be happy? ;)
If they have the sin of Glutton! ;D
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Just like regenerative buckets of KFC, pizza, and Little Debbies(TM).
It's amazing what these "biblical literaists" choose to take literally. They seem to have a kind of pride in calling themselves "literalists". But I used to call myself that too... :-[
out of some kind of warped pride.
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Triton that was funny :D
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Do you guys think the worms will be happy? ;)
Happy and very fat!
Great observation Triton.
Peace,
Joe
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Just like regenerative buckets of KFC
Make it Popeye's New Orleans spicy, and I'll be fatter and happier. ;)
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Hi Triton.
When examined the heresy of eternal hell is so full of contradictions, foolish misconceptions, and physical impossibilities, that we could spend a great deal of time pointing them out.
For instance, the majority of Christians believe that hell is a literal physical location, and there are billions of people there NOW burning for their sins. They believe that sinners enter hell fully conscious with a physical body. Question, how does a physical body endure being burned continually for even a day, let alone for eternity without turning to ash? I used to know a couple of guys that worked in a crematorium. According to them a body is turned to ash in no more than an hour when it goes into the furnace.
The answer I invariably get from Christians is that these sinners with their physical bodies cannot die once they are in hell, so therefore they burn forever. Well that poses more questions than it answers anyway, and still doesn't answer how a physical body alive or dead withstands continual burning and remains intact. But we also have another problem, so now these sinners have eternal life, which according to scripture can only be given through Jesus Christ. Answer is typically "well yes, Jesus gives them eternal life so that they can be punished eternally for their sins and for rejecting the Gospel." So now they turn Jesus Christ into a depraved monster, and they have a hell full of repentant believers. Think about it, if they rejected Christ and the Gospel, well they sure as grass is green won't now will they, not if they've been judged in the very presence of Christ. And if they are fully aware of their fate for their sins etc which is a fair assumption given that they are fully conscious in a living physical body, and this fire hole full of tortured physical bodies exists, well I think even Saddam Hussein is going to start to do some serious repenting, but according to Christians, too late, tough luck, they are going to hell.
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I don't mean to argue, but to run with a point that David made. A majority of Christians might well believe that Hell is full of physical bodies. Many don't, however, arguing that hell is full of tormented souls. Both of these views contradict each other and both would be willing to call the other heretical. Add to this equation Individualistic beliefs, concepts, and visions of Hell--each capable of deeming all others heresy--and you get such a twisted mishmash of contradictions within contradictions that God Himself is the only One smart enough to untangle.
In terms of the 'Hellites' attacking US, how complex a defense we must make if that's our goal! To stand our guard against assaults from dozens or even hundreds of 'official' Hell doctrines joined by Militias of Millions of Unofficial, individualistic combatants and we're sure to get bogged down.
Which of the following propositions is closer to the truth as WE understand it?
1. There used to be a Hell, but now there isn't because the scriptures prove it.
2. The Scriptures teach that there is no Hell.
3. The Scriptures do not teach Hell.
I'm going with #3. They, instead, teach the Gospel and many other wonderful truths.
There are reasons why the Hellites need to hear this truth, without doubt. The rest of the world needs to hear it too. I don't want to make the focus of THE Gospel #2 above.
If I'm not getting it, let me know.
Added next day: This is what has been so powerful about reading Ray's articles. YES, he takes on all comers with boldness. But he also 'replaces' error with truth by teaching truth in the course of dealing with those that contradict.
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I don't mean to argue, but to run with a point that David made. A majority of Christians might well believe that Hell is full of physical bodies. Many don't, however, arguing that hell is full of tormented souls. Both of these views contradict each other and both would be willing to call the other heretical. Add to this equation Individualistic beliefs, concepts, and visions of Hell--each capable of deeming all others heresy--and you get such a twisted mishmash of contradictions within contradictions that God Himself is the only One smart enough to untangle.
In terms of the 'Hellites' attacking US, how complex a defense we must make if that's our goal! To stand our guard against assaults from dozens or even hundreds of 'official' Hell doctrines joined by Militias of Millions of Unofficial, individualistic combatants and we're sure to get bogged down.
Which of the following propositions is closer to the truth as WE understand it?
1. There used to be a Hell, but now there isn't because the scriptures prove it.
2. The Scriptures teach that there is no Hell.
3. The Scriptures do not teach Hell.
I'm going with #3. They, instead, teach the Gospel and many other wonderful truths.
There are reasons why the Hellites need to hear this truth, without doubt. The rest of the world needs to hear it too. I don't want to make the focus of THE Gospel #2 above.
If I'm not getting it, let me know.
Added next day: This is what has been so powerful about reading Ray's articles. YES, he takes on all comers with boldness. But he also 'replaces' error with truth by teaching truth in the course of dealing with those that contradict.
Hi Dave, thank you for your input brother.
Yes you are correct, many Christians believe that Hell is a realm full of tortured souls, however most believe that Hell is a physical place/geographic location (and they believe the same about Heaven). So whether they believe people in Hell are in physical conscious boddies, or just there in terms of their soul, the questions and contradictions are still glaringly obvious as you point out. They still have to have eternal life. If they are physical how do they endure the fire without burning up? If they are souls how do they feel physical burning? The whole doctrine doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of scripture, morally, in terms of common sense, in terms of scientific physical possibilities.
I think you are right to go with number 3, however I would also say that number 2 is also correct. The doctrine of eternal hell and all its sub doctrines that hold it up, as Ray has shown us in his papers, is full of pagan beliefs and myths. The Bible clearly teaches us never to follow these beliefs.
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hi all, i got this from a martin zender book i read along time ago, i put it in my own format but just though i should give credit...sorry if its against the rules:
geographical location........................ kjv,niv, nasb
hierousalem..................................jerus alem
kapharnaoum................................caperna um
nazeret........................................naz areth
bethania.......................................bet hany
ephesion...................................... ephesus
bethleem......................................beth lehem
kappodokia....................................capp adocia
damaskos.....................................damas cus
geenna..........................................HELL (((( say what )))
kinda cute.....
chuckt
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I read the email that was sent and I am always impressed by how
"living witness's" of "hell" know so much about a "place"(and who lives there) and that the scriptures give so little information about; and well if National Geographics says.... well..whats left to say.
I firmly believe that the souls who believe the myrhs, fables, and stories told by religious people to keep them in a
controlled "box"...will not be changed unless the witness of a believer is Holy Spirit led.
In other words, if I am not filled and led at the time..all the words, scriptural proof, and debate will not "make em see."
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Exactly. You said it well, brother! BTDT.
"Hell" hath no fury like trying to how them some things they are missing.
But that does not stop me from planting some seeds for those that read or overhear the conversation.
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hi all, i got this from a martin zender book i read along time ago, i put it in my own format but just though i should give credit...sorry if its against the rules:
geographical location........................ kjv,niv, nasb
hierousalem..................................jerus alem
kapharnaoum................................caperna um
nazeret........................................naz areth
bethania.......................................bet hany
ephesion...................................... ephesus
bethleem......................................beth lehem
kappodokia....................................capp adocia
damaskos.....................................damas cus
geenna..........................................HELL (((( say what )))
kinda cute.....
chuckt
Hi! Chuckt
Great stuff, I'll take a note of that. Thanks!
God bless you brother/sister in our joint walk in Christ. ???
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK