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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nelson Boils on August 05, 2015, 11:47:09 AM
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Here are some statements from Ray on persecution:
"Look up the word "persecution" in any dictionary and then ask yourself if that definition is happening to you? If not, then you may not be"living godly in Christ Jesus." I knew a pastor/teacher who stated before his death (in his late seventies), how thankful he was that we live at a time where there is "NO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION," and that he had never been persecuted for obeying God. Oh really? Everyone I have ever known who "lived godly in Christ Jesus" SUFFERED PERSECUTION. And I do believe that I can personally speak from experience in this matter myself. Maybe your time just hasn't come yet, or maybe your obedience and conversion is not showing. When it SHOWS, people will persecute you."
and
"I can tell you on the authority of Jesus Christ, God's Word, and the Apostle Paul, that unless you are SUFFERING real PERSECUTION, you are NOT a follower of Jesus Christ nor are you living godly in Christ Jesus!"
and
"There is a giant reason why most professing Christians do NOT suffer persecutions. They may have social, health, and financial problems, but persecutions? Hardly! Why is that? Do you know that more people suffer persecution from their families BEFORE they become Christians than they ever do AFTER they become Christians? Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that as Christians they blend INTO society rather than STICK OUT."
and
""Judgment" means "to set things RIGHT." This can be done by acquittal or by sentencing. We, "the house of God" are being judged NOW (I Pet. 4:17). Jesus is our Judge. We are judged for every word we think, every thing we say, and every deed we do. There are many physical, social, financial, mental, psychological, and spiritual ways in which this is accomplished. If God is calling you to be one of His chosen Elect, then what you call "life" IS THAT JUDGMENT. We are not solely judged for what we do WRONG, but we are judged by being made to live in a world of persecution for doing RIGHT."
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I don't know which persecutionS could be labelled as "real."But, when one looks at the history of the believers,you'll notice that there was a lot of physical deaths and torture.Starting with our own Lord and saviour,then Saul killing those who followed Christ,then the apostles,then there is the time of Tyndale:Where people were killed for having a copy of his bible translation.I mean that's pretty bad and SCARY.I get that we all come across people who will disagree with us about scripture and berate us about our knowledge,but if that's all the persecution a person will receive,perhaps they should consider whether they are living Godly in Jesus Christ.
Actually i faced the possibilities of a physical death or torture from the outsiders, and luckily,God took me out of the firing line before it could get out of control.The cains of this world will kill you for doing the right thing.You are in their way and you need to be removed.
I'm interested to find out who here has faced physical death or torture as a persecution for doing what is right?
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Hello Nelson.
I really need to get an upgrade in both scriptures that are accurate an a decent dictionary too, anyways when the Lord is willing, both will happen for me.
I believe Ray was persecuted quite a bit, all one needs to do is read his e mails, his detractors were very mean to him for telling the truth, that’s all it took. He was accused of being a cult, he was accused of teaching false doctrine and leading people astray, he was told many times that unless he started teaching the truth ( THEIR TRUTH not ( GODS TRUTH ) he was going to hell where there would be no hope for him ever again.
Think how painful a thing it must be to tell someone the truth an they curse you for it ? I mean, the guy cared about people an for his caring he was ridiculed made fun of, yeah, what a hurtful thing.
The act of persecuting (especially on the basis of race or religion)
Don’t you know the only people who will ever persecute you will be the religious people of this world ? The more religious they are the greater your persecution will be also, could even get yourself murdered too.
I have been persecuted ,all one needs to do to get persecuted is simply tell Gods truth to Christendom, I know what I’m talking about because I did tell the truth to people I know.
I even had a couple get up an walk out on me saying to me I was going to hell , not because I was bad to them ,oh no, I was told I’m going to hell because I don’t believe in hell, oh well, what can I say?
If you wish to be persecuted just simply tell the truths you learn here at BT to Christendom an you shall have all the persecution you care for.
But my advise, wait for God to say, go fourth an tell the truth an make sure you know the truth inside an out or you will get ripped apart because they are a pack of wolves who like to devour.
God bless. :)
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I was persecuted in a daily basis because I am a follower of Christ Jesus. In a dominantly Muslim country i do not have a place especially in my works, home, inside the country. I have to endure the hardships because i am poor and there are not so good consequences if i leave my job. I cannot practice my belief openly or else death is at hand. I have to be very carefull in all my actions and talkings especially in the name of Jesus. All the years it is only Jesus who is protecting me and is always protecting me until this very moment. I give my all but for the Muslim am only as good until they needed me. At the end of the day I endure the hardships because my Lord always makes a way for me to be satisfied. God works in a mysterious ways.
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Hi Santgem,
It is commendable that you live as you do, without trying to produce your own persecution.
Romans 12:18-If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Hebrews 12:14-Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Joel
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Santgem,am I wrong in saying you live in Asia?I know those areas can be very harsh based on what I see in the news.Hope you get through it friend.
Joel,how does one create their own persecution?
An article reads:
"North Korea remains the most dangerous and difficult place to be a Christian. An estimated 70,000 Christians remain in prison for their faith. The conditions are also worsening for Christians throughout Asia. Countries such as Uzbekistan (15), Vietnam (16) and India (21) have all seen increases in persecution. Of particular note is India (21), where persecution is driven by Islamic extremism and Hindu fundamentalism."
I wonder if these Christians know the truth.If not,is their persecution in vain?
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6001/islamic-persecution
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Hi Nelson,
Those that belong to God cannot be lost regardless of what your preconceived notions of persecution may be. The elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world and it is God who justifies them.
I know that the apostle John lived to be around a hundred years old and died of old age rather than some death due to persecution.
God scattered His flock across the four corners of the earth and He will gather them again to Himself when He returns but each of them will be apart of the kingdom because of their uniqueness. God delights in diversity, just look around you.
Not all of us are appointed the same fate. I am grateful that my life is peace relatively and that God has afforded me the opportunity to work on my own sins and the beast within through the fires of gehenna rather than fear for my life every minute.
Perhaps one day this will change but either way God can and will save us regardless of our circumstances if He has planned to do so in this life.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Nelson,
I see anyone that doesn't take heed to Jesus's warning about casting their pearls before swine, as producing their own persecution at the hand of others to a certain degree.
Matthew 7:6-Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Joel
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Those that belong to God cannot be lost regardless of what your preconceived notions of persecution may be. The elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world and it is God who justifies them.
All I can say to that Alex, is a big Amen, now that is pure truth! Those who God has chosen are the elect period. :)
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To add a little personal experience and to agree with Alex.
In this life in the advanced Western nations, persecution and testing can come from the temptations that Satan places before everyone especially those who believe.
In a nation such as America even the poor have much riches to tempt them.
We live in air conditioned houses or apartments, we have free libraries with free internet use, economical food and access to at least low paying jobs that provide the bare essentials of life when we know that others have so much less. So to not be grateful or thankful and harbor resentment can be an inner persecution needing correction.
Unjust resentment of others who seem to have more of what we would like.
Regularly bending the truth in order to get welfare money or tax exemptions.
Failing to perform your assigned work and thereby cheating the employer.
Criticizing fellow workers in order to make ourselves seem better.
Failing to help a neighbor when you have the means to do so, even if it's only a kind word or listening to their problems when they are sad and depressed.
Even a very rich person may lust for more; more money, a larger house, a more attractive wife, coveting what anyone else has etc.
Coveting, the 10th commandment, comes before every other sin of the heart.
These are temptations that most people in poor nations have not even thought of, possibly because everyone else is in the same circumstance.
...to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Hebrews 12:1...29 read all
let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith.
Once God has called us and we then become aware of that calling and the indwelling of His holy spirit, we are required to be thankful and show our appreciation and to communicate with God as to a kind friend who has abundantly blessed us. If we do not we then become ungrateful children...needing further correction.
Romans 12: 1-21
This chapter has many guidelines for the true child of God to use to examine themselves and to make good use of the gifts we have received, thereby honoring God and Christ.
Indiana Bob
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Hi Indiana Bob
You say".. persecution and testing can come from the temptations that Satan places before everyone especially those who believe."
And:"So to not be grateful or thankful and harbor resentment can be an inner persecution needing correction."
Actually,temptation is not persecution nor does persecution come from the inside,friend.That's not "real persecution!"
Check this email from Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5712.msg46266.html#msg46266html#msg46266
Dear Mark:
No, as used in the Scriptures, persecution always comes from without from others,
not from within. Here is just one of many such examples: "If THEY have persecuted Me, THEY will also persecute you..." (John 15:20).
God be with you,
Ray
We must suffer real persecution,from THEM.
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Hi all. what is real persecution? When Jesus walked this earth as a jewish man no one every touched him to hurt him. They wanted to, but the Father would not let them. When Jesus said if they have persecuted me they will persecute you, he had not died and risen yet in His glory.
When He was beaten and hung on that tree, He did it all for us at Our Father request, to save us from our sins. Sure that was persection, but it was for us. We on the other hand, die daily to the flesh so we become like Him in Spirit. It is an enter and outer process, because God changes us on the inside and it shows on the outside.
The is just how I see it in veiw of what I read and study. I hope I have not offended anyone with my understanding.
Virginia
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Hi Virginia
You say: "When Jesus said if they have persecuted me they will persecute you, he had not died and risen yet in His glory."
Comment:You are right,"he had not died and risen yet in His glory,"but they had already tried to kill Him.
John 8:59 NIV "..,they picked up stones to stone Him,but Jesus hid Himself..."
As to what real persecution is?
Answer: Like Ray says:"Look up the word "persecution" in any dictionary and then ask yourself if that definition is happening to you? If not, then you may not be"living godly in Christ Jesus."
and
John 11:7-8 NIV "Then he said to his disciples,"Let us go back to Judea."But Rabbi,"they said,"a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you,and yet you are going back there?"
So Jesus experienced persecution before He got crucified.I mean imagine people wanting to kill you for saying the right thing.Hectic!
Matthew 5:11 NIV."Blessed are you when people INSULT(does it happen to you?)you,persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.Rejoice and be glad,because great is your reward in heaven,for in the same way they persecuted the PROPHETS who were before you."
Check what happened to Jeremiah
Jeremiah 20:7 NIV."...I am ridiculed all day long;everyone mocks me."
Jeremiah 20:8 NIV."...So the word of the Lord has brought me INSULT and reproach..."
This persecution WILL come to all elects,unless one is living in a shell,then it won't come.
PERSECU'TION, n. The act or practice of persecuting; the infliction of pain, punishment or death upon others unjustly, particularly for adhering to a religious creed or mode of worship, either by way of penalty or for compelling them to renounce their principles.
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When Jesus preached on earth, He was introducing a whole 'new' religion to the world. His Apostles continued to teach this new and different way to worship and serve God. Paul even told them that he was proclaiming to them "the unknown God."
Acts 17:23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.
This Romans empire controlled that region and this new/different religion was foreign to them, they looked on it with suspicion, in a negative sense. The Romans did tolerate other religions, but only so far as it was known to be old and in line with the ancient customs and not threatening. But these new teachings of Jesus and from the Apostles were regarded with much distrust (mainly stirred up by the Pharisees) and was not anything they had heard before.
Because most the Jews were so hostile against Christ and the Apostles' teaching of Him, the first believers were forced to meet in secret, which only added to suspicions of them. If you read some about the history of the earliest believers they were so misunderstood that they were actually suspected of all sorts of incredible immorality. So the persecution that they faced in that time was completely different then most face today.
Many of us live in America which the very first amendment of the constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. Those first believer had no such protection. Religious tolerance is so practiced now, that you might be looked on as a cult or weird for your beliefs, but really not threatened... of course there are exceptions to this in some countries, as santgem spoke of.
Ray stood up and exposed the church for what it was, that was a commission that God gave to him, that brought on persecution for sure, (another definition of persecute - to cause to suffer because of belief), he suffered verbal attacks, but did anybody ever try to hurt him physically? I don't think so. The Apostles were given a commission too...
Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
v. 16 He who believes and is baptized (into His death, Rom 6:3) will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
So the Apostles were going out as witnesses to what they had seen with their own eyes, they were starting the church built on the Rock... being with Jesus for those years would have given them a great degree of knowledge, confidence and courage from the Spirit to do what they did. They were in that very hostile environment which did bring on severe persecution and even death to all, but John.
They were given a commission to take the gospel to the world... guess what? Actually the false church has completed that job. Even though the church has carried out many atrocious acts in taking the gospel to the world, the gospel is known to the ends of the earth because of them... don't forget that is where the very elect come from.
So is the world the same for us today as it was in that first century? No. Should we push our beliefs on others, because they need to know the truth... that certainly could bring us persecution. But Peter tells us we should defend our beliefs if somebody "asks you a reason for the hope that is in you."
1Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
Living a godly life - dying daily, does bring trials and tribulation, Jesus told us that would happen in John 16:33. I dare say that if we went out to teach/preach this truth to the world, as Ray did, we would be persecuted to a greater degree, as Ray was? But is every single elect called to go out an witness and preach to the world? No, I don't think so, there are many different gifts in the body.
1Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
v. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
v. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
v. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
v. 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
v. 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
v. 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
v. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
v. 12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Virginia
You say: "When Jesus said if they have persecuted me they will persecute you, he had not died and risen yet in His glory."
Comment:You are right,"he had not died and risen yet in His glory,"but they had already tried to kill Him.
John 8:59 NIV "..,they picked up stones to stone Him,but Jesus hid Himself..."
As to what real persecution is?
Answer: Like Ray says:"Look up the word "persecution" in any dictionary and then ask yourself if that definition is happening to you? If not, then you may not be"living godly in Christ Jesus."
and
John 11:7-8 NIV "Then he said to his disciples,"Let us go back to Judea."But Rabbi,"they said,"a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you,and yet you are going back there?"
So Jesus experienced persecution before He got crucified.I mean imagine people wanting to kill you for saying the right thing.Hectic!
Matthew 5:11 NIV."Blessed are you when people INSULT(does it happen to you?)you,persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.Rejoice and be glad,because great is your reward in heaven,for in the same way they persecuted the PROPHETS who were before you."
Check what happened to Jeremiah
Jeremiah 20:7 NIV."...I am ridiculed all day long;everyone mocks me."
Jeremiah 20:8 NIV."...So the word of the Lord has brought me INSULT and reproach..."
This persecution WILL come to all elects,unless one is living in a shell,then it won't come.
PERSECU'TION, n. The act or practice of persecuting; the infliction of pain, punishment or death upon others unjustly, particularly for adhering to a religious creed or mode of worship, either by way of penalty or for compelling them to renounce their principles.
Dictionary.. Persecute to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
Persecute….G1377 to pursue (literally or figuratively); by implication to persecute: - ensue, follow (after), given to, (suffer) persecute (-ion), press toward.
Thayer Definition: 1) to make to run or flee, put to flight, drive away 2) to run swiftly in order to catch a person or thing, to run after
H7291
BDB Definition:
1) to be behind, follow after, pursue, persecute, run after
Strongs H7291 A primitive root; to run after (usually with hostile intent; figuratively (of time) gone by): - chase, put to flight, follow (after, on), hunt, (be under) persecute (-ion, -or), pursue (-r).
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I was identified as disbeliever for believing and follower of Christ. I have been working in Saudi Arabia, the core of Muslim country. Muslim treated the Jew and Christian their enemies. There are a lot more verses that saying not to make peace with their enemy, so there will be no peace on earth. No peace on earth! Let us just wait our Saviour.
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. Qura’n 5:51
They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, Qura’n 4:89
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. Qura’n 9:29
And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! Qura’n 9:30
When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. Qura’n 8:12
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I was persecuted in a daily basis because I am a follower of Christ Jesus. In a dominantly Muslim country i do not have a place especially in my works, home, inside the country. I have to endure the hardships because i am poor and there are not so good consequences if i leave my job. I cannot practice my belief openly or else death is at hand. I have to be very carefull in all my actions and talkings especially in the name of Jesus. All the years it is only Jesus who is protecting me and is always protecting me until this very moment. I give my all but for the Muslim am only as good until they needed me. At the end of the day I endure the hardships because my Lord always makes a way for me to be satisfied. God works in a mysterious ways.
I'll be sure to pray for your safety in what sounds like a very dangerous environment, and also that you might in some way be a blessing to those around you, Santgem.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Hi Nelson, I did say that they wanted to hurt Jesus, but Our Father would not let them hurt Him. I know Jesus was persecuted because He claimed to be the Son of God. They said all kinds of bads things to Him and about Him, but they never touched Him, even thou they tried and no one will touch us till it is time for that to happen as it was with our Savior.
I have been persecuted for my faith by my family. I have had them tell me they are disappointed in me for leaving behind the Sabbath and feast days, and dietary laws. They say I am wishy washy, but I go where the truth leads me. It has taken awhile for me to get where I am at today. Now I found out that Yahweh and Yahshua is a pagan name and my husband is Yahwehist and Yahshua man. This has just happened to me and I can't talk to him about, but I did ask him to read what I did about it. He hasn't done it yet. I doubt he will unless God draws him to it.
I hope I made myself clear about Jesus being persecuted. I believe that He was in the sense that you speak, but he wasn't hurt or touched until it was His time to be.
May God bless you,
Virginia
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Hi friend Nelson,
I take your point about REAL persecution, attacks from other persons due to our faith!
But then I must respectfully disagree that we have to suffer persecution or else we are not truly called and chosen followers of Christ.
Let me try to explain much the same way Kat did.
If a person is going to suffer from personal persecution, there has got to be some type of threat in the mind of another person, the one committing the persecution against me.
For example, if my teaching makes them question their beliefs or their pastor or someone that they love and trust. That is the point in time where it is wise to change the subject and let well enough alone.
If God wants them to pursue the truth they will come back of their own God inspired choice without us nagging them. Even then we should be very circumspect in our approach considering the other members of their family who may not be able to understand our motives.
This type of persecution would usually come from a relative, probably one that we have tried to help or "convert" to our way of thinking. So to avoid that type of attack, keep your new beliefs to yourself or at least tread lightly. Be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
When Jesus instructed the apostles (and we are not apostles) to go into the world and teach the gospel, he also told them to go only to the circumcision or those of the Jewish persuasion. And even then Jesus told them that if their preaching was not received by the head of the house or by that city, that they should just leave and shake the dust of that city from their sandals and return no more.
They were not taught to proselytize in gentile communities. That task was left to Paul and of course Paul did receive persecution.
But again, we are not Paul and as far as I can determine we have not received a vision or direct instruction to spread the gospel to all the people we know. We are to simply be a light on a hill, an example of gracious living and sincere caring for the needs of others.
Today in a secular nation such as America or Britain a practicing follower of Christ does not have answer for their religious beliefs or go out looking for trouble by preaching where they are not welcome.
People in Muslim or Hindu nations have a different set of circumstances.
Of course you may recall that Christians were accepted and protected under the rule of Saddam Hussein of Iraq. Saddam didn't want trouble and he dealt harshly with any who threatened those native Christians. The trouble didn't start until America interfered.
And there again, the Christians did not proselytize outside their own families.
So then my main point would seem to be that true believers do not have to pressure other people to accept the gospel in order to have salvation. That would be some sort of "works" that should remain in the authority of almighty God.
Subject to correction by the moderators. Indiana Bob
Hi Indiana Bob
You say".. persecution and testing can come from the temptations that Satan places before everyone especially those who believe."
And:"So to not be grateful or thankful and harbor resentment can be an inner persecution needing correction."
Actually,temptation is not persecution nor does persecution come from the inside,friend.That's not "real persecution!"
Check this email from Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5712.msg46266.html#msg46266html#msg46266
Dear Mark:
No, as used in the Scriptures, persecution always comes from without from others,
not from within. Here is just one of many such examples: "If THEY have persecuted Me, THEY will also persecute you..." (John 15:20).
God be with you,
Ray
We must suffer real persecution,from THEM.
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Dear Indianabob,
I have given a lot of thought to what you have said. I have always wanted to 'lay low' were my religious beliefs were concerned. Being raised in WWCOG, I would avoid any conversation that turned toward religion like the plague. As a child, my siblings and I were singled out, made fun of and shunned because we could not participate in holiday parties and activities, could not eat pork at school, etc, by other students, teachers, family, etc. I remember vividly being berated by a teacher in front of class over not being able to participate in the class Christmas activities. I can still feel how my cheeks burned with shame. We only wanted to blend into the background and not be noticed, and being asked "what religion are you?" or "what did you get for Christmas?" was always dreaded. This carried on into adulthood, and first chance I got, I blended myself right into the local Baptist church. I felt safe, accepted and mainstream for the first time in my life. You would think I would NEVER let myself get into a situation of 'sticking out like a soar thumb' ever again. But here I find myself again. I begged God to show me the truth, and here I am. I feel an uncontrollable urge to share my beliefs on my facebook page. I have been unfriended. Shunned. Called names. In my small bible belt town, I think people look at me as if I have gone off the deep end. I don't want to put myself out there like that. It causes me a great deal of stress that I don't handle well and don't need. I tell myself regularly that NO MORE. . . that I will not share any more religious posts.....but, I may wake up in the middle of the night with specific verses going thru my mind or a specific subject, and an intense feeling like I need to share some verse or quote or article, and I do.... I have even cancelled my facebook account a few times just to stop, but always feel driven to start again. I know we are not supposed to share our faith unless someone asks.....but I just don't seem to be able to help it. What do yall think? Should I stop? Should I continue? I just don't know what I should do............... :-\ :'( :-[
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Dear Indianabob,
I have given a lot of thought to what you have said. I have always wanted to 'lay low' were my religious beliefs were concerned. Being raised in WWCOG, I would avoid any conversation that turned toward religion like the plague. As a child, my siblings and I were singled out, made fun of and shunned because we could not participate in holiday parties and activities, could not eat pork at school, etc, by other students, teachers, family, etc. I remember vividly being berated by a teacher in front of class over not being able to participate in the class Christmas activities. I can still feel how my cheeks burned with shame. We only wanted to blend into the background and not be noticed, and being asked "what religion are you?" or "what did you get for Christmas?" was always dreaded. This carried on into adulthood, and first chance I got, I blended myself right into the local Baptist church. I felt safe, accepted and mainstream for the first time in my life. You would think I would NEVER let myself get into a situation of 'sticking out like a soar thumb' ever again. But here I find myself again. I begged God to show me the truth, and here I am. I feel an uncontrollable urge to share my beliefs on my facebook page. I have been unfriended. Shunned. Called names. In my small bible belt town, I think people look at me as if I have gone off the deep end. I don't want to put myself out there like that. It causes me a great deal of stress that I don't handle well and don't need. I tell myself regularly that NO MORE. . . that I will not share any more religious posts.....but, I may wake up in the middle of the night with specific verses going thru my mind or a specific subject, and an intense feeling like I need to share some verse or quote or article, and I do.... I have even cancelled my facebook account a few times just to stop, but always feel driven to start again. I know we are not supposed to share our faith unless someone asks.....but I just don't seem to be able to help it. What do yall think? Should I stop? Should I continue? I just don't know what I should do............... :-\ :'( :-[
Hi Lauri,
This is a good question and I've certainly thought about exactly what you mention.
I think its a matter of the motivations in your heart for why you are posting what you post. I share scripture often because I think of God and His Word often. I find God's words to be very encouraging and so I post. I don't do it to try and "witness," argue, or condemn anyone. Jesus said, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. In this day and age what we say on the internet is what was once spoken by the lips. So then can you deny what is in your heart? We shouldn't be ashamed of who we are. We shouldn't go out of our way to hide who we are. Most people don't even bother to read what someone like myself posts on a news feed. They know I post pretty much only scripture so they either unfollow me, block me, or unfriend me. I don't have a problem with that one bit. It also doesn't bother me one bit if absolutely no one reads what I post. I don't do it for anyone really. I do it mostly for myself and, to a lesser extent, those whom I love dearly in Christ. Like I said, I cannot hide who I am and I think when we start to feel we have to hide who we are then that's what we need to question the spirit that is leading us to believe this. I don't think the spirit of Christ would have us hide who we are. We are in the world and because of this someone will always be watching what we do and say. The trick is to not be conformed to this world, to be not "of" it.
These are my thoughts and I could be wrong on this. Maybe I am overstepping the line but I truly do not believe in my heart that I am. So many people unfriend me over it but I cannot hide what is on my mind or in my heart and I have no desire to ever do so. I certainly won't come knocking on your door though and asking you if you read my post about Jehovah ;)
I welcome more discussion on this issue and would love to hear more perspectives on it.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi again Lauriellen and Alex,
We are not in old testament time. Not in the way the WWCG taught that we were.
The old covenant & its requirements of sacrifice and Temple worship have been replaced. God is no longer having ONLY the Jews to be His people and to be an example to the world of obedience to the law of God.
The new covenant leads us to make of OURSELVES a sacrifice to God, by living righteously, improving a little each day and year.
Of course that is possible ONLY with the indwelling of God's spirit. We are the temple of God's spirit, we are the place where God's spirit is working. NOT IN OTHERS we may know and love.
It is NOT our place to go about seeking who we can convert by sharing the knowledge that God has reserved to those few God is calling at this time. So do not cast your pearls of wisdom before swine that will trample them underfoot.
With the indwelling of God's spirit we each can begin to develop the talents and gifts that God has granted us. That does not include evangelizing in the early stages of our personal development.
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Actually, developing our own talents is a life long endeavor, so be patient.
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Yes, I know that it is tempting to want to share what we have been given so that others may benefit by the knowledge of God's gracious love. But that is not our choice and in fact it is a little arrogant to suppose that we know the hearts and minds of other people better than God does.
Actually a good place to start if you are a beginner and beginners can be of any age, try Matthew 5:1-48
Please read it all, but note the final verse and spend most of your personal effort in cooperating with God to make it come true.
48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
That is quite enough to accomplish in one lifetime, so leave the rest to God's son to bring about at the predetermined time in God's plan.
Offered in love, Indiana Bob
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Hi Virginia
You say, "Now I found out that Yahweh and Yahshua is a pagan name and my husband is Yahwehist and Yahshua man.This has just happened to me and I can't talk to him about, but I did ask him to read what I did about it."
I'm afraid you may just be deceiving your husband.Where on earth did you read this?I suggest you read "Solving the enigma of God" by Ray.
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Thank you Bob,
I appreciate your reply and I do feel like a weight has been lifted. I in no way think I am anywhere close to perfect nor qualified to be a teacher. Most of my 'shares' are quotes of other teachers or links to articles (including here) that I found helped me in my quest to learn and grow, and thought might help others. I have given a lot of thought to my motives for sharing my beliefs so much. I tell myself that I can not tolerate the character of God being misrepresented and I just want people to know that God is NOT the monster portrayed in traditional religion.....BUT, at the back of my mind is a nagging wonder if it is all just ego and wanting to be 'right' and prove others wrong, or an argumentative nature in me that needs to be purged. I know that all of the wrong theology is working for God's purpose and it is not my place to set everyone straight, however, this brings me back to the original question about persecution.....if we are not being persecuted for our faith, as Ray said, we are probably not living right? How could we be persecuted for our faith if no one knows what we believe?
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Lauriellen, since facebook is a player in this...
I'm tormented by many of the things I see posted on facebook, and most things I see posted on facebook are posted by christians. Sometimes it bothers me all day (sometimes longer) looking at/reading what somebody else just regurgitated there without thought. Sometimes I reply, and sometimes I don't. When I do, sometimes I 'feel better' and sometimes I don't. When I reply, I give a lot of thought to it. Except when I don't. When I don't reply , I process these contradictions in my own mind and faith is grown. Except when I don't.
If there is a single 'right' thing to do, I don't always either 1) know what it is, or 2) do it (obviously). Yet it seems to me so far that whatever I do or don't do, He works in me to help. That's the 'fiery trials' I 'experience'. If that's not enough, I suspect He will turn up the heat.
I've said and thought for a long time that any fool acting badly can get himself 'persecuted' in his own mind if that's the goal. The goal (to me) is in living godly. The way I read it, Jesus is warning them...not telling them to 'go forth and get thyself persecuted'. That's the cart before the horse. Live godly--get persecuted.
It could well be that I am getting all the persecution He knows I can handle. You know, SOMETIMES it even happens here.
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One thing we might should consider when we "throw our pearls" out there, is can we follow that up with the answers in Scripture that might come up from what we share?
Sure we see that the Apostles went out preaching and sharing the gospel and Ray certainly put the truth out there to others. The Apostles witnessed of what they knew from personal experience and teachings from Christ Himself and I believe Ray was called to 'expose those who contradict,' and had many years of serious Bible study/training before that. The Apostles and Ray had the knowledge and Spirit to backup what they preached and did, most importantly they had a commission from God to do what they did.
What I mean is if we just toss a truth at a person and expect them to 'get it' and even desire to know more truth from us, we are kidding ourselves. The Holy Spirit must open a person's eye 'before' they can understand... it's NOT the other way around, that the Holy Spirit will come if we give somebody a scrap of truth. God works out this conversion very carefully throughout the elects life, until at last the Holy Spirit comes in and there eyes begin to open to these wonderful truths. Most certainly that person will then seek out the truth, and most certainly God will show them where to find it.
We should be "prudent" (Amos 5:13) where or to whom we speak of these things, and we need to know there is a time to speak of these things and a time keep silent.
Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:
Ecc 3:7 A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello again Lauriellen,
Your last sentence is the key to some of the problem we all face.
" "How could we be persecuted for our faith if no one knows what we believe?" "
People need to and will learn about your beliefs by the way you live and how you treat other people. It is your actions that speak for you. You don't need to preach...
This is especially true of your close relatives and friends whom you have known longest.
When you express understanding and forgiveness toward the hurtful actions of another person, you demonstrate God's love toward all sinners.
When you do this in the presence of a person who is revengeful and just wants to get even they will not (cannot) understand and will think of you as an enemy.
People who have been hurt by others naturally (carnally) seek support and agreement for their desire to get even, to see the offender punished.
When you accept people with religious beliefs different from your own or that of your relatives, it can be frustrating for those relatives who expect you to be on THEIR side no matter what.
For example, when you are able to let God strengthen you through prayer and meditation and you are then able to rise each morning with a positive attitude and face the difficult day just being nice and being forgiving of others and their differences, the change in your attitude will show. To some it may be irritating, to others a pleasant surprise.
In my own case I have had to bite my tongue while having a pleasant discussion with my wife. She often will state an opinion about another person or a situation that I find to be in error. So instead of correcting her automatically the way I used to do, I instead just smile and listen and perhaps ask her why that seems so to her. Then I listen politely while she explains. I don't interrupt, I don't correct or offer my own view, I just try to understand and put myself in her position.
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After all she just wanted someone to listen to her concerns. She didn't ask me to share my opinion, she is not ready to change or to forgive AND it is not my job to correct her.
As the husband in the partnership, my job is to lead by example. It is not my job to preach or to condescend to my better half. God does NOT require that approach!
God can and will CAUSE my wife to change, to grow in grace, when God is ready.
It may take many years. We've been married 54 years and the last ten have been the best. Because, I let go and let God do the work...in me, not in her.
She will learn righteousness in the resurrection from other saints who shall be very much better qualified than I am today and that reassurance gives me peace of mind and increases my love toward God and respect for God's wisdom.
All I need to do in this life is to express my unconditional love toward her as an example.
In that way I help her to develop more trust in me as a husband and equal partner.
The problem within families arises when only one partner is called. Because that called partner has to carry the whole burden of responsibility. So it is important to keep in mind that God does NOT judge you by your spouses actions or life style.
Of course that is a very difficult challenge, but considering what our Lord and master had to endure for us it is a small price to pay. AND God will strengthen you and grant you peace of mind through it.
Keep in mind that God is NOT teaching righteousness to the MANY in this life. Only the few are being given an experience of grace and coming to love God unconditionally.
Mark 12:30-31 (NIV)
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”
Please continue to present your concerns to the forum, I am confident that all here want to help you and help themselves as well by meditating on your questions.
No one here is better than any other. We each have had similar difficulties in life and will have more in the future, so let us continue in God's love toward one another as we have been led to see the need with God's patient correction.
Thanks to Ray and Dennis and all the moderators for their work of love.
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I thank Ray and Dennis too, along with all who share here. It is so good and helpful. I am also in a difficult situation at home concerning my unorthodox beliefs, and I am sure my family would be relieved if I would just go back to the way I was before. It can certainly be a lonely row to how, but I appreciate the example you gave of dealing with your wife, and I could learn a lot from your approach.
One more thing, and I think Ray talked or wrote about this, isn't it important to 'preach the gospel to all the world as a witness' before Christ returns, not just as a recruiting mission, but as a witness against those who oppose?
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Lauriellen,
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks.
Yes it is important for there to be a witness to the world at large.
However, God can take care of this by many means other than having us approach everyone we know.
Just consider Ray Smith. He was doing his level best in a small way with friends when the Internet became a viable means to share. With the essential help of Dennis and other friends Ray was able to broadcast his work for thousands and millions to see. This was the work that God had sent him to do.
But please keep in mind that there were years and decades of study, self examination and research in preparation for that task. It wasn't done quickly after he began to learn the truth. Ray first counted the cost of doing God's work and prepared himself carefully.
I think most of us, the great majority, are still basking in our first love of God's truth, still learning. I don't think that we are anywhere close to ready to represent God's word and God's plan to the general public.
So then if we are genuinely desiring of doing this work for God then we should spend the time and the effort with prayer and fasting to prepare. Keeping in mind that we may do more harm than good if we try to teach only our friends or those who will listen to us because they know us.
If a person is genuinely interested they will be begging for the opportunity to share their interest with you.
If they only listen politely and don't bring up the subject again, then it is not their time.
God's truth does not need to be promoted like a sales pitch. When a person is being called they are eager to learn more and to study all the information that they can find. Isn't that how we found this site??
So please be patient with yourself, God will make it plain and obvious when it is time for you to share these pearls of great price with people who will appreciate them.
Warm regards, Indiana Bob
I thank Ray and Dennis too, along with all who share here. It is so good and helpful. I am also in a difficult situation at home concerning my unorthodox beliefs, and I am sure my family would be relieved if I would just go back to the way I was before. It can certainly be a lonely row to how, but I appreciate the example you gave of dealing with your wife, and I could learn a lot from your approach.
One more thing, and I think Ray talked or wrote about this, isn't it important to 'preach the gospel to all the world as a witness' before Christ returns, not just as a recruiting mission, but as a witness against those who oppose?
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Nice one, Indiana!
Just to add.Let us educate ourselves with what Ray has left for us,read and re-read and re-read until you fully understand so that you don't stand behind Ray all the time and when asked a question you say:"Yah well there is this guy on the internet..."So lets educate ourselves guys and put in the effort.
What i like about Ray's method of teaching is that he taught us how to fish.
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Hi Nelson, First I would like to say I am sorry for posting that in here and I would like for everyone to forgive me. Second I want you to know I would never try to deceive my husband. I share everything with him and if he agrees or not, I am good with it. I started thinking about this when Ray said in his article about the name Yahshua was not in the Old or New Testament. That is what got me on this study.
I can't speak about where I got this from, so I want. I am very sorry I brought it up in here. Please forgive me.
with love, virginia
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Santgem, I am not worthy to walk in your shoes, seriously. When it comes (persecution) from one's own family it is hard. When I was much younger I was called, "the nun, whacko, seriously disturbed and avoided and today my husband doesn't even want to hear the word, God. But, you know what, it hurt and I felt like I didn't belong but now many yrs. later these same people ask for prayers from me. Once i took the attitude of, 'they know not what thy do" I started to grow. Now, I even correct their lack of knowledge of scripture but in a way that is not offensive, more like an apologetic. And with love of course. An Atheist took me apart limb from limb once(not literally) and did I ever want to throw the book at him but i didn't but it took me a long time not to hate him for what he said. I feel cowardly at times because I don't speak up but when you know it is just going to cause an argument I shut up.Only if I am asked anymore. it can be very lonely sometimes.
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Santgem, I am not worthy to walk in your shoes, seriously. When it comes (persecution) from one's own family it is hard. When I was much younger I was called, "the nun, whacko, seriously disturbed and avoided and today my husband doesn't even want to hear the word, God. But, you know what, it hurt and I felt like I didn't belong but now many yrs. later these same people ask for prayers from me. Once i took the attitude of, 'they know not what thy do" I started to grow. Now, I even correct their lack of knowledge of scripture but in a way that is not offensive, more like an apologetic. And with love of course. An Atheist took me apart limb from limb once(not literally) and did I ever want to throw the book at him but i didn't but it took me a long time not to hate him for what he said. I feel cowardly at times because I don't speak up but when you know it is just going to cause an argument I shut up.Only if I am asked anymore. it can be very lonely sometimes.
Hello Judy,
Greetings!
I feel your loneliness, Just the way i feel it everyday except when i had my one month yearly vacation. You do not have a way to speak for yourself the way i do.
But at the end of the day, I thank our Lord that i am experiencing these things, it really humbles me. I am nothing in this world without him and i endured the days that is why i am still alive and kicking.
Did you feel the satisfaction even we are lack of something? If you ask me, i feel safe in the night even i was surrounded by unbelievers and evil. As i said before and will say it again, God works in mysterious ways. We are very lucky indeed Sister Judy.....All things may come to pass. I pray that we will endure all these things in our life.....
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Santgem, I know one thing for sure at this old age. We win (not in the sense of being arrogant) but through every battle whether a quiet one or a situation I come out with peace where those who have tormented me do not. I wish they knew of this peace!! People think i am strong but not really, I just know God loves me and made me smart through His Holy Spirit. The grace of perseverance has always been given to me. My life is a gift and it is a fact God calls those whom the world never gives a second glance. I am alive because He is alive and holds me up. He is my life, my first love forever. Thank God for you. judy